Podcast Summary: Ask Haviv Anything — Episode 68

Title: Antizionism is inherently violent, with Adam Louis-Klein
Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Adam Louis-Klein

Overview

This episode delves into the nature of anti-Zionism, examining its distinctions and overlaps with antisemitism, its historical and ideological roots, and its translation into real-world violence—especially in the wake of the Bondi Beach massacre. Haviv Rettig Gur hosts Adam Louis-Klein, a scholar and activist who recently founded the Movement Against Anti-Zionism, for a candid, nuanced discussion. They challenge prevailing academic narratives and public discourses that differentiate anti-Zionism from antisemitism, arguing that anti-Zionism is itself an inherently violent form of hatred.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Aftermath of the Bondi Beach Massacre

• Moment: [03:34]
• Adam describes the massacre as both an escalation and an event many expected, underscoring the failure of public discourse, which falls into "a kind of broken loop" where responsibility is always disavowed.
• Quote:
  "Their very discourse always basically functions to disavow their own responsibility... when we just call them antisemitic, we aren't necessarily calling them to account because that's already baked in to what they're doing." (Adam, [05:20])

2. Uniqueness of Anti-Zionist Blame Dynamics

• Moment: [06:16] – [09:01]
• Haviv contrasts responses to violence against Jews with responses to violence against other minorities, noting how blame is uniquely and illegitimately transferred to Jews or Israel.
• Quote:
  "There's literally never been an anti-Semitic line the Jews haven't adopted as their own." (Haviv, [08:23])
• Adam notes that anti-Jewish ideology is treated as a kind of "lingua franca," with any Jewish victimization quickly rebalanced by discussions of Muslim or Palestinian victimhood.

3. Distinction and Overlap: Antisemitism vs. Anti-Zionism

• Moment: [11:45] – [13:22]
• A major theme is the argument that anti-Zionism is structured to appear distinct from antisemitism, emphasizing opposition to Israel rather than to Jews themselves, yet quickly morphs into a tool to delegitimize and endanger Jews globally.
• Adam suggests that in the Middle East, antisemitism and anti-Zionism are indistinguishable:
  "In the Middle East, anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism. That hatred of Jews is always expressed through this civilizational war... maintained against Israel and against Zionism." (Adam, [17:40])
• The conversation confronts the "neutralization game" where antisemitism is always countered or diluted by Islamophobia accusations, preventing a clear confrontation of anti-Jewish violence.

4. Historical Realities and the Denial of Jewish Experience

• Moment: [18:17] – [25:26]
• Haviv insists anti-Zionism is always rooted in either ignorance or bigotry, given the clear historical record of Jewish expulsion and persecution, and the absence of viable alternatives for Jewish refuge.
• Quote:
  "Are you wishing the world hadn't treated the Jews in a way that left Israel as their literal only option? ... To be an anti-Zionist is to what? What's the argument? You wish history hadn't happened that way?" (Haviv, [19:00])
• Adam explains how modern anti-Zionist arguments frame Zionism as a colonial crime, ignoring Jewish agency and turning Palestinians into eternal victims of a unique European evil.

5. The Academic Construction of Anti-Zionist Ideology

• Moment: [25:26] – [29:34]
• Adam analyzes how anti-Zionism evolved from Soviet, Islamist, and Western academic traditions, building a self-exculpating identity that defines Jews solely as nationals of their host states until their otherness becomes inconvenient.
• Quote:
  "Anti-Zionists... evolved Jew hatred. They've transformed it from anti-Semitism into anti-Zionism and they're waiting for us to catch up." (Adam, [29:34])

6. Anti-Zionism as a Unique and Violent Political Phenomenon

• Moment: [32:06] – [37:15]
• Adam argues for recognizing anti-Zionism as its own lineage of Jew hatred, not just a repackaging of traditional antisemitism, and describes the Movement Against Anti-Zionism's aim to make this new reality legible.
• Anti-Zionism is not simply criticism of Israeli policy but fundamentally a structure that renders Jewish nationhood uniquely illegitimate and deserving of dismantlement.
• Classical antisemitism and anti-Zionism intersect but are not identical; the latter is the current dominant form of Jew hatred globally.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defining Anti-Zionism: "Instead of saying that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, which I think is a very ambiguous statement and it's inaccurate in certain respects, I would say that in the Middle East anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism." (Adam, [17:40])

• On Academia and Ideological Evasion: "They've outpaced us and they've evolved Jew hatred. They've transformed it from antisemitism into anti-Zionism and they're waiting for us to catch up..." (Adam, [29:34])

• On the Essential Nature of Anti-Zionism: "Anti-Zionism is a violent politics... drove Jews out of Arab countries by marking them as Zionist traitors, as Zionist spies, and as people who didn't belong." (Adam, [31:12])

• On When Criticism Becomes Anti-Zionism: "There's a whole space of critiques, of internal discussions and debates that Jews can have, that others can have too, about Israel. But that has nothing to do with anti Zionism." (Adam, [52:22])

Clarifying the Analogy: Anti-Zionism and Medieval Anti-Judaism

• Moment: [41:25] – [43:01]
• Adam explains that anti-Zionism is more akin to religious anti-Judaism (where one could "convert out" of the group by changing belief) than to racial, classical antisemitism.
  "Anti-Zionism constructs itself in a very similar way [to anti-Judaism]... if Jews reject this belief system and become anti-Zionists, they will be saved." (Adam, [41:38])

Important Timestamps & Segments

• [03:34] — Adam’s first response to Bondi Beach and structure of anti-Zionist discourse
• [06:16] — Haviv highlights the unique application of collective responsibility to Jews
• [11:45] — Discussion on the conversational and moral gymnastics in denying Jewish victimhood
• [17:40] — Adam: “In the Middle East, anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism”
• [29:34] — Adam on the evolution from antisemitism to anti-Zionism
• [32:06] — Movement Against Anti-Zionism’s mission and the post-Holocaust paradigm shift
• [37:15] — Haviv: “It shares the standing the Jew up to be judged...” The persistence of a scapegoating function
• [41:38] — Adam’s explanation: Modern anti-Zionism as religious anti-Judaism
• [44:47] — Why “anti-Zionism crosses the line” debates are futile; need for a new framework
• [52:22] — Explaining legitimate criticism of Israel versus anti-Zionist scapegoating
• [56:33] — Red-Green alliance: How Islamic civilization recodes itself as colonial victim

Flow & Tone

The conversation is intellectually rigorous yet accessible, mixing historical analysis, personal frustration, and candid vulnerability. Haviv frequently voices incredulity and moral outrage, while Adam provides calmly reasoned frameworks, often anticipating resistance from both listeners and the broader public discourse.

The episode is peppered with humor (“You think that intimidates me, Adam? ... That's a little bit impressive.” [01:57]) but the gravity of anti-Jewish violence and ideological scapegoating remains central.

Final Summary

Haviv and Adam argue that anti-Zionism, though often disguised as political critique, is itself a modern framework for violence and exclusion directed at Jews. Adam calls for Jews and allies to recognize anti-Zionism as a unique, violent, and historically rooted bigotry—one that requires its own category separate from classical antisemitism, and one that enables, legitimizes, and even prescribes violence wherever it manifests. Both agree that confronting and naming anti-Zionism as such is essential for Jewish agency and communal safety in this new, tumultuous era.

End of Summary