B (3:24)

A lot. A lot is going on here. Listening to the letter and thinking it through as you read it, I was like, okay, I don't know why this kid is not changing her underwear, right? Like, I don't know what that's about. The hair washing thing I hear, right? Where kids won't wash it, don't wash it, say they washed it, pretend they washed it. But what's happening here is that this kid's not taking good care of herself, right? She's not taking over the ownership of taking good care of herself. One thought I have just sort of to frame this up, and then we can get into the weeds of, like, what should this family do? You know, now that they're in this position? There's a really interesting thing I've noticed over the years around teens and bodily autonomy. And where it's come up especially is for kids who have medical needs where they need to be meeting with doctors, and doctors have to be touching them or doing things that feel intrusive. Young kids, setting aside the yuckiness of having to deal with that, Young kids don't mind that so much. They're used to the idea of adults picking them up and helping them wash and things like that. They're used to that idea of being touched in that way, for lack of a better word. Adults can tolerate, right? If they have to have a medical procedure. Like, they may not like it, but they can deal with it. Teenagers. And this actually can create a real challenge sometimes for things like diabetes care. Don't like people messing with their bodies, right? Like, they're very, very autonomous in that way. And it's very much you can hear in my voice, like, it rubs them the wrong way. When someone wants to get anywhere near their body, there's just a lot of kind of ownership and gatekeeping around that. And so part of how this is derailing with this kid, if I think about it, developmentally is okay, so she's not taking great care of her body. We need to figure out how to get that back on track. But then when the parent is like, I'm going to try to make you do it right. I'm going to try to keep track of your underwear. Then the kid's like, haha, I am gonna keep ownership and control even at the cost of my own hygiene because I don't like anybody telling me how to run my body. Right. So that's what's running through this. Right. Is that we've got a 12 year old. Right. And she's reasoning like a 12 year old and we have to contend with that.

A (5:50)

Yeah. You know, I, one of my first questions was, you know, this seems like a hygiene problem, but what's the psychological underpinning here that's going through the child?

B (6:00)

Right. Okay, so I think we got the piece about like why is the kid actually doubling down? Right. Like that's the thing that's really interesting. The mom's like, you need to change your underwear. Kids like watch this. Right. So I think the doubling down, right. I think that's just the, like you can't control my body. I'm a teenager. But there's also, you know, I really mean it when I said like, I don't know why this kid's not changing her underwear. But I will say like on the hair wash, you know, it does happen. And I don't know if you remember when this happened with your kids. I kind of like vaguely remember when it happened with my kids where they go through a greasy phase. Right. Like their hair did not require regular washing in the same way when they were little kids. And then they hit early adolescence and then you're like, dude, what is going on with your hair?

A (6:44)

Yes.

B (6:45)

And it's not always like it's a new routine. Like that's what we need to understand. Like it's a new routine and new routines are hard and kids don't always know how to adopt them.

A (6:58)

Yeah. You know, you mentioned like there was a point and you kind of forget it once you move past some of these stages. But I do remember this where hygiene wasn't of importance, but they hadn't really hit those teen years yet. Is this normal for a 12 year old to be going through this?

B (7:14)

I'M not gonna say it's not normal. I mean, I, and I really, I think, you know, there's so many threads here psychologically. So one is like, don't mess with my body. Another is you're asking me to adapt a routine that I've never had to do before. Like where I now have to wash my hair two or three times a week at least. Right. I mean, especially, you know, it feels like when they're, you know, coming into puberty, it can get greasy fast. And then the third piece, which I actually think is really, really important. And maybe at work here on the hair thing, I still don't understand the underwear thing. Kids are pretty ambivalent about going into puberty. I don't know. Do you remember going into puberty and how you felt about it?

A (7:55)

I wasn't thrilled.

B (7:57)

Yeah, I was like, it feels out of control. Right? Because it kind of is out of control. Right?

A (8:01)

Like, totally. Right.

B (8:02)

I will say, I will say Reena. I also, it's funny, this is just an aside. Like, I also had like daydreams about like, what puberty could make happen for me. Like, and I had this like, basically because I was 12, right. I was like, I could end up looking like a Barbie. Like, this could be amazing. Like, I could like, I could be 5, 10, right. With like, you know, giant boobs or whatever. Like, yeah. Somehow my 12 year old self was like, maybe that's the outcome that's going to happen. Which of course. No, it did not. But you're on this precipice and you're like, my body's just about to do its own thing. It's super weird. I'm along for the ride. And so I think, and I have definitely cared for this and I wrote about this in Untangled. There are kids who are like, I'm going to ignore this because I don't want to deal with it. So I think that that explains like the hair stuff and sometimes. And this is also like, you know, hygiene. Yucky. But understandably, psychologically, I've seen girls do this with getting their period where they like totally are. So, like, they don't want to deal and so they don't deal. And it's messy.

A (9:04)

Yeah, I guess that was one of my big questions is like, what's happening here? Is this laziness? What's going on in the tween brain that we don't know, that we should know?

B (9:13)

Okay. It's all of the above, right? Like, new routine. Don't want to deal with puberty. I Don't want anybody talking to me about my body. And now that you're talking to me about it, I'm definitely not going to do the thing you're asking, right? Like, that's what's easy pickings here in terms of what's going on. I also think when I've cared for it, I've sometimes cared for teenage boys where, and this happens with kids of all genders where they get bad acne. And, you know, things have changed so much since we were teenagers. Like, there's such good treatments and it's not always inexpensive, it's not always convenient to acquire. But at this point, most acne is quite treatable. And I've watched families, like go to all of the trouble and cost of securing the medicine the kid needs and then he's not using it. And when I've like, ask or try to understand, they're like, he just wants to do other stuff, right? It's just he's like, he's watching a show he wants to watch, he's playing a video game he wants to watch. It's just not important to him. And it takes, you know, like time and effort to take care of these things, right? So there's even something, I think as simple as not a priority for the kid, right? So maybe the parents priority, but it's not the kid's priority. And so, you know, all of those things can be at work when kids aren't taking care of their bodies. Starting something new isn't just hard, it's also pretty scary, right? You're making something you care about, you're going to try to get it out in the world, but you don't know how it's going to go over. I remember when we were developing this podcast, you know, we were so excited about it, but we're also thinking, like, is anybody going to listen? Right. Are we going to be able to help families? If you find yourself in a place where you're trying to make a leap like that, having a partner like Shopify on your side can make a huge difference. They help you get started with your own design studio. They have hundreds of ready to use templates, and you can create a beautiful online store that really matches your brand's style. And when you're ready to get the word out, they have a marketing team behind you. You can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are. Scrolling, Rolling. It's time to turn those what ifs into sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com asklisa go to shopify.com asklisa that's shopify.com asklisa

A (11:52)

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B (13:18)

Yeah, I mean, I think the simplest explanation is I want total control here and you are invading my privacy, which the parent truly is not. Right? Like, the parent is like, dude, you gotta change your underwear, you gotta wash your hair. But I definitely can see kids feeling like, this is private. This is my body. Like, I'm not gonna let you intrude upon it. And one thing that is true, and I've seen this in other situations where kids have legitimately had their privacy intruded upon. And I'll give an example, kids get sneaky to maintain their privacy. So in Untangled, I wrote about a girl I cared for who kept a diary. No, she kept a diary and she had it in a lockbox in her closet and her dad was insistent on seeing it, so she kept trying to find new ways to hide it. There was nothing to it. There was nothing that needed to be seen by an adult. Kids want privacy for the sake of their own privacy. In adolescence And I'm a big fan of kids having privacy, right. If they want to go in their room and close the door, especially if the tech's not in there, I think they should be allowed to do that. And I have seen through my life as a clinician, when parents don't allow kids basic privacy, kids get sneaky to get it. So I think probably what's happening with this kid psychologically about the lying is she's like, this feels private. You're intruding on my privacy. I'm going to use sneakiness to maintain my privacy. And the way it's read by the adult, understandably, is, now the kid's lying to me, and now I have a lying problem on top of a hygiene problem.

A (14:57)

You know, that's a great point about the lying problem, the hygiene problem. The other thing I couldn't understand, Lisa, is at some point, don't the kids pick up on the scent and the lack of hygiene? And they're so all about picking on each other. Like, hasn't that happened? And isn't that a concern for the child?

B (15:15)

Well, this is the worry, I mean, yeah, that, you know, like, social stuff can be so fragile and 12 year olds tend to be seventh graders, and seventh graders are not always the nicest. Right. And so, you know, one concern is you will. You don't want a kid, you know, getting teased for smelling bad. And, and so, you know, that's, that's a concern that is very real. And what I will say about smell, actually, this is sort of an interesting, weird little psychological factoid. Smell is the sense that habituates the fastest, that we, we get used to it and can no longer detect it anymore. So like when we put on a perfume, you have to commit to how much you put on the first time because you will stop smelling it. And sometimes people put on more and more and more because they themselves can no longer smell it, but everybody else can. So if this kid smells, they can't always smell it because they've habituated smell. Habituated. So they don't notice their own bo.

A (16:26)

They're used to it.

B (16:26)

And what we really don't want is their peers to be like, what the, what. I will say, I think generally kids don't do this because a lot of kids in middle school smell, honestly, but that's something that you do want to try to prevent.

A (16:40)

So if you were working with this family, where would you start? What would your advice be to them?

B (16:46)

So I think I would start by saying to the parent, the lying is collateral. It's not actually the problem. And this is something that we've seen before, and I think it's super important. It is offensive when our kids lie to us. I have found there's different kinds of lying. There's lying to try to get away with something really super naughty, which is actually not what this kid is doing. There's lying because the kid is actively trying to avoid dealing with something, and so they lie to maintain the avoidance. Often you'll see this in the form of kids who have, like, gotten themselves into some sort of terrible homework hole. And the parents like, did you do the homework? The kid's like, yeah, totally, right? Because the kid is like, I don't even know where to start. And then of course, it all, like, hits the fan eventually. And then the parents are like, oh, my gosh, you were lying to me. I'm like, yeah, yeah. But the problem actually is that the kids in the homework hole and like, the lying, like, getting derailed by the lying isn't going to make this better. So I would probably say a whole lot of stuff like that to this family of don't get derailed by the lying. Because, yeah, she shouldn't lie to you. But the issue is this kid is refusing to take care of basic hygiene, has gotten herself into a spot where for some reason she's stuck, and we need to get her unstuck. Let's not worry about the lying for now. Let's figure out why she is not taking care of herself and let's use. Let's try to get her to start taking better care of herself so that she doesn't have to lie about this to you.

A (18:24)

So what you're saying, in this situation, the priority is sort of fixing this hygiene problem and then we'll deal with the lying later.

B (18:31)

Right? And hopefully lying will go away because the kid will, like, be managing it and won't have to lie about it. Right? So, but so then it gets this question of, like, how do we get this kid to start changing her underwear? Right? Which is something we want to do. And I think. I think that there's a few points of entry. So the first thing I would say, and I would say this is, again, a very general thing. I think that rather than trying to corner a kid, like, did you change your underwear? Right. If you know the kid didn't. Right? And this could also be like, did you. Do you know, did you walk the dog? Did you, you know, put the dishes in the dishwasher? If you already know the answer, don't give the kid a chance to lie to you about it. Right. Like, that's not going to go. So I think the first position I would have this parent take is to say to her, look, you and I both know you're not changing your underwear. Right? Just start there and then say, I don't know why. Do you know why? Right. But try to have it not be like, you're in trouble or you're busted or, you know, just like, what's the why here? Right. And the kid might be like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, that's often how kids will respond. And then I would have the parents say, like, okay, here's the deal. You have to change your underwear. It is part of how we take good care of our bodies. It's also part of how you grow up. And. And then I think there's something really beautiful that to be said, which is you can say to kids about all sorts of things. We've taken great care of you and have loved doing it. Bathing you as a baby. Right. Making sure you're getting all nice, wonderful foods. Now that you're 12 and older, it's increasingly your job to take good care of you. And we're here to cheer you on as you do this. But we're starting to pass the torch. And you changing your underwear every day is part of how you let us know that you're maturing and growing up and increasingly able to care for yourself. So sort of put a positive spin on it as opposed to, like, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you changing your underwear? You must change your underwear. Right? Put it in the broader developmental context. Okay, what do you think? Does it sound holistic? I'm just wondering, like, how does it sound?

A (20:48)

For me, personally, I felt like it was a phase, and then something snapped in. And I'm wondering if that snapped in part is just their peers all started taking better care of themselves, and the message came home. But not everybody moves in packs like that. And I think that for those parents who feel like, okay, this stinky phase has gone on a little bit too much, and they're lying to me. And I know we kind of brushed aside the lying, but that is the one thing in parenting I can deal with anything else, but I do not like to be lied to. And I've told this to my kids all the time. Like, that's the one thing that really irks me. But, yeah, I just wonder, what is it that would get through to the kid and change their behavior when they just really don't care and see it as a problem.

B (21:34)

Right. Or they're in such a, like, you know, power struggle with their parent that they're taking themselves down. That's right. I think you're right. I think so. Option one is like all the words I said. And I totally get it if a parent is like, yeah, no, that I'm not gonna say that to my kid. Option two, I mean, dirty underwear or not clean underwear, it's like, it's not the greatest thing in the world. This is not gonna. Cause, you know, will this matter when she's 30? No, it will not matter when she's 30. The parent may very well be in a position to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna wait till this kid clues in or somebody says something in a locker room. Right? Like, I'm gonna let time run its course. And you know, I think we can say with confidence, this kid's gonna go down the aisle if she gets married in fresh underwear. Right? Like, I mean, I think like, in terms of like, what we have to really, really throw down about, it's not this, it's not great, right? But is this, is this, you know, worth having a knockdown drag out about? Probably not. And especially like you say, cause like, switches flip, right? Where suddenly the kid's like, oh, now I've decided I wanna spend three hours in the shower. Which of course then you're like, oh, why did that change? So you could defin that approach?

A (22:42)

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B (23:47)

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A (24:52)

So what about things like kids who don't brush their teeth or, you know, really have bad acne and we know they're not washing their face or taking care of themselves. Do you have any advice on. On how to approach these issues as well?

B (25:06)

Well, so you do also see this, right? So, like, what this girl in the letter is dealing with, like, none of it will matter when she's 30. But like, you also see and I hear about kids, like, and I'll hear. But it's funny, when I go to the dentist, I'll have dentists be like, oh, help me with my adolescent patients who do not brush their teeth. Like, what am I supposed to say to them? Like, I've had dentists ask me that orthodontists will have kids who have full

A (25:31)

braces, the rubber bands, the retainer. Yes.

B (25:34)

There's also that, right? I mean, where kids are just not doing what they're supposed to do. So let's sort these in. Like kids not brushing versus and then retainer and rubber bands are also super important. I think that's where a lot of parents get into it with their kids. The kids not brushing, which is very real. Like, that's that's real. That can be very consequential. Right. Cavities. I have known of kids who've had to have their braces removed early because they weren't caring for things and it was starting to become a hygiene issue in their mouth. Right? That is where you get a physician to help you. You get a physician to sit with a kid and be like, here are the implications of what you are doing. And really have the clinician lay out the dangers of them not brushing, not caring for their teeth in basic, basic ways, with or without braces. Get a clinician on board. And the nice thing about clinicians is they're neutral. They're like, dude, these are the facts of the science of this. And so it doesn't turn into a power struggle so much between the kid and the parent. Use a clinician for the. Really, like, could have lasting consequences. Stuff the retainers and the rubber bands.

A (26:47)

Yeah.

B (26:48)

Do your kids have braces? Are your kids there right now?

A (26:50)

Yes. Yes, they do. And thankfully, they've been pretty good about it. But it's hard, you know, it's a lot to remember.

B (26:58)

That is the key. It is a lot to remember. It is a lot to remember. And I think taking that, like, it is part of a new routine. So I think that's a place where we say, this needs to happen. And, you know, for rubber bands, it's so that we can actually get you out of braces, and I can stop hauling you to the orthodontist every six weeks. And then for retainers, it's because we just put down all this money for your nice braces. And if you don't wear your retainer, it's all gonna reverse. So I think this is where you can start to have, like, privileges, right? Like, you having this wonderful orthodontia, which I know you may not love, is a privilege. It's your responsibility to take care of it. And other privileges are contingent on that. Like, getting to go do all these fun things you want to do is contingent on that. I think, you know, you can take it pretty light. You can. You don't have to start there. You know, you can say, like, hey, what are the other systems that we can use to help you remember to do this? But if you feel like the kid is actually making your life hard because they're not taking care of their braces, like, they're about to waste all the money you just spent on braces, or they're about to have you driving them to the orthodontist for an Extra year and a half because they won't wear their rubber bands. I think you can start to put some leverage behind that.

A (28:09)

All right. Well, this is great because it's so frustrating when you're going through it as a parent and you feel like nothing you do or say is going to make a difference. But I guess this too shall pass. But I just don't want to be in this stage.

B (28:25)

No, it's not the most fun, for sure.

A (28:28)

Yeah. So what do you have for us, Lisa, for parenting to go?

B (28:32)

So there's a book I really admire called Atomic Habits by James Clear. It's a brilliant book and he's a great guy. I've actually met him. We're both in here in Ohio. And what's really cool about this book is, as often happens, James, who is not a psychologist by training, did a vastly better job than I've ever seen any psychologist do of translating the science of behavior change into a handy dandy. Very good book. And one of the things that runs through this book is this idea of habits are part of routines. And like, you can't change behavior if you don't figure out where the habit fits in your routine. So one of the things that I would say for families who are struggling with this, especially as kids, hygiene requirements increase and quickly and unexpectedly for them start to talk with them about like, where will hair washing go in your week? Is it a Monday, Wednesday, Saturday situation? And then how do we remember that it happens on Mondays? Like, do we put a post it note in your bathroom? Right. Like put more scaffolding in around the adoption of the new habit and attach it to current routines the kid has. Don't just be like, dude, you gotta wash your hair.

A (29:52)

Right?

B (29:52)

If they're not doing it, they can't do it. I think taking just a very pragmatic behavior change, habits are hard to change, new habits are hard to adopt approach might also just neutralize us a little bit and meet kids kind of where they are.

A (30:08)

Yeah, that's great advice, Lisa. Thank you so much. You know, and I'm saying this as I Wonder if our YouTube listeners and viewers know I didn't wash my hair for two days, but I did. I am clean everywhere else. I do want you to know so

B (30:23)

well, you don't have to wash your hair every day for sure.

A (30:26)

Thank you for that.

B (30:27)

And definitely. Of course, of course.

A (30:31)

Well, thank you, Lisa. And next week we're going to talk about in app video game purchases and gambling what parents need to know. I'll see you next week.

B (30:40)

I'll see you next week.

A (30:44)

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop and set. Send us your questions to ask Lisa@drlisademore.com and now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website website@drlisademore.com.