Podcast Summary: Ask NT Wright Anything – Episode #236: Icons, Praying to Saints & Dividing Over Sexuality (Classic)
Release Date: December 11, 2024
Host: Premier
Guest: N.T. Wright

In the milestone 50th episode of Ask NT Wright Anything, hosted by Chris Wright, renowned theologian N.T. Wright delves into pressing ecclesiastical issues raised by listeners worldwide. This episode addresses topics ranging from the use of icons in worship, the doctrine of the communion of saints, baptism practices, to maintaining church unity amidst theological and ethical differences concerning human sexuality.

1. Celebrating the Podcast's Journey

Timestamp: [01:20 - 04:22]

Chris Wright begins the episode by celebrating the podcast's achievement of nearly 2 million downloads. He reflects on the global impact of N.T. Wright's teachings, noting that listeners from 191 countries engage with Wright’s thought-provoking theology. Wright expresses gratitude, emphasizing the role of his ministry in fostering deeper understanding and faith among believers worldwide.

2. Listener Question: Icons and the Practice of Praying to Saints

Timestamp: [07:04 - 12:20]
Listener: Vanya from Bulgaria

Question:
Vanya questions the Greek Orthodox tradition of using icons—images of Jesus, Mary, and saints—for prayer, noting the absence of such practices in both the Old and New Testaments. She perceives these traditions as pagan influences.

N.T. Wright's Response:

Wright acknowledges the complexity of icons within Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions. He clarifies that in Eastern Orthodoxy, "icons are not things you're supposed to pray to, they're things you're supposed to pray through" (07:50). Icons serve as visual aids that connect worshippers to the divine, embodying the belief in a "new creation" post-resurrection, where humanity participates as co-creators. Wright emphasizes that the intention behind icons is to "expressions of beauty which we create, through which we see God's beauty and which help us" (09:15).

However, Wright cautions against the potential for idolatry, especially in Western traditions where the practice may have devolved into improper worship. He advocates for re-embracing the icon tradition with a clear theological understanding, maintaining that worship remains directed towards God through Jesus Christ, the center of the iconography.

3. Listener Comment: Rowan Williams and Icons

Timestamp: [12:20 - 12:53]

Chris Wright brings up Rowan Williams, another prominent theologian, questioning if Williams has written on icons. N.T. Wright responds by clarifying that Williams authored "Lost Icons," which, while not directly about religious icons, draws on his expertise in Eastern Orthodox traditions to discuss what has been lost in contemporary spirituality.

4. Listener Question: Communion of Saints and Marian Doctrines

Timestamp: [12:53 - 19:40]
Listener: Stephen from an Evangelical Protestant background

Question:
Stephen, transitioning from an evangelical Protestant background to Anglicanism, struggles with doctrines related to the communion of saints, particularly practices like praying for saints, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and the Immaculate Conception. He seeks guidance on maintaining a sensible Anglican stance amidst these Catholic-influenced practices.

N.T. Wright's Response:

Wright explores the "koinonia hagiorum" (communion of saints), explaining it as the fellowship of all of God’s people, both living and departed. He shares a pastoral experience to illustrate the concept: "When I gave her communion, I used the words... 'the body of Christ, the bread of heaven'... she was sharing in the same meal as her husband was" (18:00). For Wright, communion serves as a tangible expression of spiritual unity rather than invoking saints for intercession.

Regarding Marian doctrines, Wright expresses theological reservations. He finds teachings like Mary’s perpetual virginity and the Immaculate Conception "theologically troubling" and akin to "pagan idolatry" when taken beyond their biblical foundation. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing Mary’s unique role without attributing to her divine intercessory powers that compete with direct access to God through Christ.

Wright underscores that true communion of saints is about "fellowship with all of them... because we're all on the way to the eventual new creation of the resurrection" (19:10). He advocates for a balanced approach that honors the saints' contributions to faith without elevating specific individuals to a position of intercessory prayer, which he views as unsupported by Scripture.

5. Listener Question: Baptism Practices – Infant vs. Adult Baptism

Timestamp: [20:42 - 28:33]
Listener: Harry from Southport

Question:
Harry questions the tradition of infant baptism and the practice of confirmation, noting the lack of biblical precedent for baptizing infants or distinct confirmation ceremonies. He seeks insight into aligning these practices more closely with biblical teachings.

N.T. Wright's Response:

Wright contextualizes baptism within early church practices, drawing parallels between baptism and circumcision as outlined in Colossians 2. He argues that "baptism is the Christian version of circumcision," serving as the entry point into the faith community irrespective of age (27:00).

He recounts his personal experience with infant baptism and subsequent confirmation as a teenager, highlighting confirmation as a public affirmation of personal faith: "I then stood up on my 15th birthday and said, yes, this is for me too" (22:00). Wright critiques the notion that child baptism without subsequent personal affirmation leads to disengagement, as seen in some Baptist traditions where late teenage baptisms often result in later drift from the church.

Wright references Vincent Donovan’s Christianity Rediscovered to illustrate early church practices where communal and corporate faith expressions preceded individual confession. He emphasizes that the New Testament does not explicitly prohibit or mandate infant baptism, suggesting that the practice is a matter of church tradition rather than biblical decree.

Moreover, Wright highlights the importance of supporting baptized individuals with "surrounding support" to foster enduring faith, contrasting it with practices that may not engage believers personally from an early age.

6. Listener Question: Church Unity Amid Theological Differences on Sexuality

Timestamp: [28:33 - 42:35]
Listener: Mark from Westaskiwin, Canada

Question:
Mark discusses his denomination's struggle with handling churches that deviate from its communal stance on human sexuality. He describes a conflict between those advocating for freedom in interpreting Scripture and those upholding traditional doctrines. Mark seeks advice on maintaining church unity despite these profound theological and ethical disagreements.

N.T. Wright's Response:

Wright approaches this sensitive topic by referencing 1 Corinthians 8-10, where Paul addresses the balance between Christian liberty and communal responsibility. He explains that differences "that make a difference" versus those that "don't make a difference" are critical in navigating such disputes (30:46).

Using the example of dietary practices concerning meat offered to idols, Wright illustrates Paul's stance: while individual Christians may freely consume such meat, they must "respect the conscience of those who say, actually, no, this is not something I can do" (37:00). This principle mandates that personal freedoms should not override the well-being and beliefs of others within the community.

Wright criticizes denominations that prematurely declare certain issues as non-essential and proceed regardless of dissenting voices, labeling it as an "arrogant coup d'etat" (39:45). He underscores the necessity of discipline in the church to uphold essential doctrines and ethical standards, advocating for leadership that navigates differences with "wisdom and love" rather than imposing uniformity through authoritarian means.

He further emphasizes the role of church discipline in maintaining unity, referencing Paul’s instructions in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 about addressing immorality and promoting virtues like kindness, generosity, and humility. Wright argues that effective church leadership must balance upholding doctrinal integrity with fostering an environment of mutual respect and support, avoiding "bullying and overbearing" approaches (42:35).

Conclusion

In this landmark episode, N.T. Wright offers profound insights into maintaining theological integrity and unity within the church amidst diverse practices and beliefs. His thoughtful responses encourage believers to engage deeply with Scripture, respect differing consciences, and uphold communal responsibilities to foster a cohesive and spiritually vibrant Christian community.

Notable Quotes:

• On Icons:
  "Icons are not things you're supposed to pray to, they're things you're supposed to pray through." (07:50)

• On Communion of Saints:
  "When I gave her communion... she was sharing in the same meal as her husband was." (18:00)

• On Baptism:
  "Baptism is the Christian version of circumcision." (27:00)

• On Church Unity:
  "We must respect the conscience of those who say, actually, no, this is not something I can do." (37:00)

• On Church Discipline:
  "Leadership must navigate differences with wisdom and love rather than imposing uniformity through authoritarian means." (42:35)

This episode serves as a valuable resource for Christians navigating traditional and contemporary theological landscapes, offering guidance rooted in historical context and biblical teachings.