Podcast Summary: Ask NT Wright Anything

Episode: Bishops, Priests, Finding a Church, and the Universalism Question
Date: October 12, 2025
Host: Mike Bird
Guest: N.T. (Tom) Wright

Episode Overview

This episode addresses three pressing listener questions with N.T. Wright’s characteristic insight and warmth. Topics covered include the biblical origins and distinctions of church leadership roles (bishops, priests, elders), the challenge of finding a safe and authentic church community amid toxic religious climates, and the theological and biblical issues surrounding universalism—especially in conversation with David Bentley Hart's arguments.

Wright and Bird provide historical, biblical, and pastoral perspectives, often sprinkling the conversation with their humor and real-world experiences.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bishops, Priests, and Biblical Ministry Offices

Main Question:
Is there a true biblical distinction between bishops, priests, and elders? Who really has authority to ordain, and does this structure stem from the New Testament?

• Mike Bird frames the question (04:00), noting confusion about the equivalence (or not) of "episkopos" (bishop/overseer) and "presbyteros" (elder). He proposes a potential nuanced reading, referencing Alistair Stewart’s work, which suggests the terms are perionyms—different names for functionally similar roles.
• N.T. Wright notes the "fuzziness" in early Christian use of these terms. In the first generation of the Church, there was no clear, rigid order (05:00):

  “In the first generation there was no very definite fixed order... the [Church of England] prayer book says unwisely that there were always bishops, priests and deacons, but that's just not accurate.” (04:57)

• Wright distinguishes between latently overlapping roles in the New Testament and the later pastoral wisdom of creating structures for unity.

  “There grows up in the early church this sense of bishops as a focus of unity… but I don’t think you find that taught in the New Testament.” (07:04)

• The development of distinct orders was a practical solution in the post-apostolic church for maintaining unity and orthodoxy across communities.
• On Orders and Functionality: Wright repeatedly stresses function over ontology, i.e., church leadership was organized for practical reasons, rather than conferring mystical status.

  “It's not of the esse of the Church... but it may be of the bene esse... it's good for the church at this point, but always open to review.” (11:37)

• Mike Bird shares further scholarship and personal anecdotes about Anglican practice, highlighting both the diversity and the ironies of obedience oaths in church culture (16:47).

2. Finding a Church in a Hostile Environment

Main Question:
What does someone do when all the churches in their area are politically co-opted, toxic, or unsafe, yet they long for authentic Christian fellowship?

• Listener’s Context:
  A listener in Fort Worth, Texas laments not being able to find a church that is both biblically faithful and welcoming, free from negative political entanglements and scandals (17:44).

• N.T. Wright’s Response:
  Wright expresses deep empathy and concern, noting this is not unique to any one region (19:02):

  “It doesn’t entirely surprise me... the church has been so subsumed into a particular political mindset that actually everything seems to be slanted that way.”

• He encourages patience, prayer, and more research—suggesting the possible existence of small, less visible church plants or fellowships in even monolithic areas.

  “Pray and research and look for that… I bet there are already some startup churches... may not have hit the headlines, may not have the big buildings, but may well be places where you would feel at home.” (22:38)

• Wright is cautious about both mega-churches (flashy, car parks) and very small churches (risk of authoritarian leaders).

• He firmly resists blaming the questioner:

  “Where this person says, ‘I’m sure much of the problem is in my own faith,’ I would say, no, it isn’t. The problem is in the fact that… we have not really got this one worked out.” (21:56)

• He underscores the universal challenges of Christian witness across cultural and political spectrums—referring to issues in both America and the UK.

3. Universalism and the Arguments of David Bentley Hart

Main Question:
Does David Bentley Hart’s argument for universal salvation solve the “incoherency” of Western Christian talk about God? What does Wright think of Hart’s translation, critique of Augustine, and the "milk analogy" for salvation?

• Samuel Connor asks about Hart’s strong universalism and its critique of traditional (especially Western) views of hell and God’s nature.
• Mike Bird briefly summarizes Hart's approach:

  “Salvation is like milk. If the milk goes sour, you can't just save part of it. You've got to save the whole carton or nothing.”

• N.T. Wright’s Evaluation:
  Wright critiques both Hart’s translation of the NT and his underlying bias:

  “I was fairly appalled... it's obvious that he is particularly being driven by his hatred—and that’s not too strong a word—for the church father Augustine.” (28:58)

• Wright differentiates between Western and Eastern Christian understandings of afterlife, referencing Dante and the Sistine Chapel’s iconic imagery, but notes these don’t necessarily reflect biblical teaching.
• He notes (critiquing both sides):

  “The picture of heaven and hell which you get in the Middle Ages owes an enormous amount to the ancient pagan idea... that what really matters is… something called the soul… I want to say that whole way of doing it is not grounded in the Bible.” (31:20)

• Wright is wary of both strict eternal torment and dogmatic universalism:

  “My suspicion is that the Western tradition has been far too dogmatic with its picture of heaven and hell, but that people like David Bentley Hart are being far too dogmatic in their presumption of a universalism…” (34:35)

• He calls for humility and “holding back from being too dogmatic,” acknowledging the Bible’s warnings but resisting extreme systems.
• Wright points to his earlier book Surprised by Hope for a fuller treatment of these issues.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Wright on Early Church Orders:

  “There’s a sense, for me at least, of ‘it’s not broke, don’t fix it.’ Let’s ask the question. But let’s not just throw the whole thing out the window because there may be some slippage in the words in the New Testament.” (11:10)

• On Pastoral Pain:

  “No, it isn’t [your fault]. The problem is in our churches and in our societies, and we have not really got this one worked out…” (21:56)

• On Western Hell/Heaven Imagery:

  “That whole way of doing it is not grounded in the Bible. There are Bible verses that have been used to support that idea, but really they don’t.” (31:24)

• On Universalism vs. Traditionalism:

  “My suspicion is that the Western tradition has been far too dogmatic… but people like David Bentley Hart are far too dogmatic in their presumption of a universalism… it may just not be that those are the only options.” (34:35)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:00] – Introduction to the bishops/priests/elders question
• [07:00] – N.T. Wright on the early development of church offices
• [11:00] – The pragmatic development of orders post-apostolic era
• [17:44] – Question about finding a non-toxic church in Texas
• [19:02] – N.T. Wright’s pastoral response to church toxicity
• [22:38] – Advice on finding/investigating smaller, less visible churches
• [26:27] – Introduction to the universalism question (David Bentley Hart)
• [28:58] – Wright’s reaction to Hart’s translation and critique of Augustine
• [31:24] – Discussion on "soul" vs. biblical anthropology
• [34:35] – Wright's call for humility on eschatological dogmatism
• [36:39] – Bird and Wright discuss (not) listening to podcasts themselves

Final Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, empathetic, and deeply rooted in scripture and tradition—yet Wright continually advocates for humility, honesty about church history’s complexity, and ecclesial charity. Both host and guest point toward practical hope: be it in flexible, non-dogmatic theology, or patient searching for genuine church fellowship in challenging contexts.

For listeners desiring further reading:
N.T. Wright recommends his book Surprised by Hope for an expanded view on the biblical vision of life after death and Christian hope.