Podcast Summary: Ask NT Wright Anything

Episode: Can you lose Salvation? Why do churches keep splitting? What is covenant theology?
Host: Mike Bird (Premier Unbelievable)
Guest: Tom (NT) Wright
Date: August 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into some of the most recurring and divisive theological questions churches face today: denominational splits and unity, the debate between covenant theology and dispensationalism, the nature and necessity of sacraments (with a focus on the Salvation Army's practice), and the hotly debated question of whether salvation can be lost, particularly as it relates to Hebrews 6. NT Wright brings his vast experience, biblical insight, and characteristic warmth to each question posed by listeners around the world.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Do Churches Keep Splitting?

Timestamps: 03:29–13:53

• Tom Wright contextualizes church splits using both historical and contemporary examples, mainly focusing on Anglican, Presbyterian, Catholic, and Orthodox divisions.
• He notes, "All splitting of the Church is tragic. The unity of the Church is a major, major New Testament imperative." (Tom Wright, 09:13)
• Church discipline and identity are at the root: true allegiance to Jesus Christ must dictate who is "in" or "out."
• Paul’s letters are referenced, especially Romans 14–15 (disagreements allowed in non-essentials) and 1 Corinthians 5 (clear moral boundaries not open for debate).
• Historical divisions: Tom points out that disputes are not just modern; citing the 4th-century Athanasius vs. Arius debate as a pivotal division over Christological doctrine.
• On Church discipline: "Paul is very clear that there are many things which Christians are allowed to disagree on...But there are other passages in which...certain styles of behavior are simply out of order." (Tom Wright, 05:18)

Memorable Quote

"The churches from the beginning are who they are because they owe allegiance to and belong to Jesus Christ. And that's the absolute criterion."
— Tom Wright (04:52)

Anglican Unity Options (10:44–13:53)

• Mike Bird presents:
  • An Anglican Covenant—formal contract of beliefs and practices.
  • Empowering the Archbishop of Canterbury—potentially functioning as a "Pope."
• Tom Wright recounts his role in the Windsor Report and the rejection of the Covenant ("...once the Church of England had said we're not going to go that way...that's a synodical decision..." [11:32]).
• Critiques of both options; stresses ongoing need for prayer and creative solutions.

"Unity is not an option in the New Testament. It is again and again insisted on by Jesus and Paul and everybody else."
— Tom Wright (13:39)

2. What is Covenant Theology? (vs. Dispensationalism)

Timestamps: 13:53–20:57

• Listener Jonathan asks for clarity between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism.
• Tom Wright explains he encountered dispensationalism through his father-in-law, who used the Scofield Reference Bible and was deeply invested in detailed prophecy.
• Describes how movements like dispensationalism often arise as reactions to other traditions (e.g., British Israelism).
• Covenant Theology: Emphasizes God's covenants with Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, and the "New Covenant" in Christ. Provides a continuous thread of divine commitment.
• Dispensationalism: Sees history as divided into distinct "dispensations"; holds a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church; expects a future fulfillment of OT prophecies, including a literal return of the Jews to their land and end-times events.
• Tom is honest: between the two, he falls on the covenant theology side ("If I had to choose...I would be a covenant theologian all the way down the line. Like, if I had to choose between Luther and Calvin, I would choose Calvin." [17:35]).
• However, he is highly critical of rigid systems that ignore the Bible’s own nuance, context, and narrative complexity.
• Recommends the book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism" by Hurrell for an academic history.
• Warns against reducing the Bible to any systematic scheme: "We all need to watch out lest we be fobbed off too quickly with schemes that don't reflect the way people were actually thinking and writing in the first century." (20:37)

Memorable Quote

"Back to the Bible itself, which is a much larger and more interesting book than any of those systems would allow for."
— Tom Wright (19:46)

3. The Salvation Army & the Sacraments

Timestamps: 22:50–29:35

• Listener Jacob (Salvation Army officer in New Zealand) asks about their tradition's lack of sacraments (baptism and communion), based on their belief in all-of-life as sacramental.
• Tom Wright recounts that originally, the Salvation Army was not meant to be a church ("...they would not have communion and baptism, lest they be thought to be setting up a church." [24:44]).
• Commends the Salvation Army for their exemplary ministry among the poor and for their holistic, sacramental approach to life.
• Draws parallel to Eastern Orthodox theology (Alexander Schmemann’s "The World as Sacrament"), which sees all of life as permeated with divine presence.
• Suggests: while the salvationists’ approach is valuable and a lesson for other churches, the sacraments are explicit signs Jesus gave for heaven and earth coming together.
• Encourages bridging both: honor all-of-life sacramental theology but consider integrating Jesus’ command to remember him through bread and wine, and to baptize.

Memorable Quote

"All of life is sacramental. Exactly right. But this is the point at which the extreme apparent low church salvationist joins up with the extreme high church, Orthodox."
— Tom Wright (26:38)

• Mike Bird adds: "The Jesus who told you to go out and serve and to love others and to look after the poor is the same Jesus who said, go and baptize all nations." (29:35)

4. Can You Lose Your Salvation? (Hebrews 6)

Timestamps: 29:35–34:27

• Listener Derek asks about Hebrews 6 ("It is impossible for those who have fallen away to be brought back"), a text that deeply troubles many Christians.
• Tom Wright draws a parallel to 1 Corinthians 10, noting early church members who participated in rituals (baptism, Eucharist) but weren't genuinely invested in Christ ("...but who are not actually on board with the fundamental message of Jesus." [31:07]).
• References the Donatist controversy (Augustine argued for possible return post-apostasy) to show this issue is ancient and ongoing.
• Conclusion: Hebrews and 1 Corinthians both warn believers for a reason—there is a real risk of falling away. We must hold assurance and warning together, not default to comfortable certainties:
  • "I want to say, hang on, hang on, hang on...there is always one person in the world who it doesn’t do to be too welcoming and encouraging about—and that’s myself." (32:14)
• Avoids extreme positions ("You’ve either got Romans or you’ve got Hebrews. It seems to me there is a larger whole here which is about the whole life of faith." [33:23]).
• Ultimately, the Christian walk is ongoing; vigilance and humility are always needed.

Memorable Quote

"Let the one who thinks that they stand take heed lest they fall. Watch out, because you too may be under judgment."
— Tom Wright (31:41)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment Topic | Start | Key Discussion/Quote | |------------------------------------------------|----------|--------------------------------------------------------| | Introduction & Big Questions | 02:05 | Four major listener questions previewed | | Church Splits & Denominational Division | 03:29 | "All splitting of the Church is tragic..." | | Anglican Unity Options | 10:44 | Windsor Report, Covenant, Papal model discussions | | Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism | 13:53 | "Back to the Bible itself..." | | Sacraments & the Salvation Army | 22:50 | "All of life is sacramental. Exactly right..." | | Can You Lose Salvation? (Hebrews 6) | 29:35 | "Take heed lest they fall..." |

Notable Quotes/Memorable Moments

• On Unity and Division:
  “The unity of the Church is a major, major New Testament imperative.”
  — Tom Wright, 09:13

• On Theological Systems:
  “Back to the Bible itself, which is a much larger and more interesting book than any of those systems would allow for.”
  — Tom Wright, 19:46

• On Sacramental Life:
  “All of life is sacramental. Exactly right. But this is the point at which the extreme apparent low church salvationist joins up with the extreme high church, Orthodox.”
  — Tom Wright, 26:38

• On Assurance vs. Warning:
  “Let the one who thinks that they stand take heed lest they fall. Watch out, because you too may be under judgment.”
  — Tom Wright, 31:41

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping yet deeply personal take on some of the church’s most difficult questions. Wright repeatedly calls for charity, careful biblical reading, and humility, steering listeners away from rigid systems and easy answers. Whether you are wrestling with your denominational identity, systematic theology, sacramental practice, or assurance of faith, this episode will help you “go back to the Bible itself”—and call you to walk with both conviction and humility.

For follow-up questions or to be featured on a future episode, visit askntright.com.