Episode Overview
Podcast: Ask NT Wright Anything
Episode Title: Did God create 100 billion people just to send them to hell?
Host: Mike Bird
Guest: NT (Tom) Wright
Date: September 14, 2025
This episode delves into two major listener questions: how to discern a good church tradition, and the theological dilemma surrounding “salvation for those who’ve never heard of Jesus.” Tom Wright brings his characteristic scriptural insight and historical perspective, exploring unity and difference among churches and the mystery of divine mercy and judgment.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. How to Choose a Church Tradition
[03:00–16:27]
Summary:
A listener from Beverly, USA, asks how to find a church home given diverse traditions and personal disagreements with some doctrines. Tom Wright points out that:
- No church is perfect: All traditions have failings; seeking a "perfect church" is a myth.
- “If you find a perfect church, don’t join it because you will spoil it.” – Tom Wright [05:23]
- Biblical Framework for Differences: Paul distinguished between fundamental issues (e.g., incest in 1 Corinthians 5) and disputable matters (e.g., food sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8–10, Romans 14–15).
- Some differences are “red lines,” others are “matters of conscience.”
- Unity in Diversity: Ephesians urges unity despite different practices; on good days, Tom sees this in denominational variety, on bad days, flaws are more apparent.
- “Some days I look out at all the different denominations and think, yeah, that’s what Ephesians looks like... Other days, I don’t see any church that ticks all the boxes.” – Tom Wright [08:11]
- Essential Criteria: Seek a church where:
- Scripture is “taken with utmost seriousness.”
- There is latitude in worship and self-expression.
- Members are invited to serve and participate in God’s mission.
Notable Practical Advice:
- Pray for wisdom and, if necessary, sample different congregations—but with focus and intent.
- Anglicanism as an Example: Tom is Anglican, appreciates its basis in “Bible and creeds,” but notes Anglicanism’s minimalism is both a strength and a risk.
- Anglican statements (e.g., 39 Articles) are guidelines, not scripture.
Green Flags & Red Flags
Summed up by Mike Bird and Tom Wright:
-
Green Flags:
- Esteem for Holy Scripture
- Freedom in worship and expression
- Opportunities to serve in God’s "Kingdom team" [14:13]
-
Red Flags:
- Dominant, coercive leaders
- Lack of spiritual “enabling” by leadership
- Absence of ordered, meaningful liturgy (Tom values “proper liturgy done well”) [15:33]
“Wise spiritual leadership is an enabling thing rather than a compelling thing.”
– Tom Wright [15:07]
2. Teaching Children Doctrine: Catechism Resources
[16:27–21:48]
- Tom’s Children's Bible: “God’s Big Picture Story Bible” (US title), designed to connect individual stories to the wider biblical narrative through side-notes and cross-references.
- “A doctrine is a way of putting those great floppy multiple stories into one suitcase… Don’t imagine doctrine is the reality and the Bible just an illustration… doctrines are shorthand, portable versions of the overall Bible story.” – Tom Wright [18:06]
- Favorite Catechisms: Tom didn’t grow up with catechisms but recognizes their value.
- Mike’s Recommendations:
- To Be a Christian: Official Anglican catechism in North America, good for teens [19:46]
- New City Catechism (Tim Keller, Redeemer NYC)
- Consider writing your own catechism or using the Apostles’ Creed as a starting point.
- Use music (e.g., Colin Buchanan’s songs) for teaching Scripture to children.
3. The Fate of “100 Billion”: Did God Create Most People to Send Them to Hell?
[23:24–35:33]
The Listener’s Question:
How can Christians believe God is loving when most people in history never heard of Jesus? Does geography or history determine their eternal destiny?
Tom Wright’s Response:
-
Scripture First: The question is ancient, though not directly addressed in detail in the New Testament.
- Roots answer in stories like Cornelius (Acts 10–11): a Gentile, seeking God, who receives a vision and then hears about Jesus.
- Acts 17: God made all people “to feel after him and find him.” [25:54]
-
Missionary Experience: There are records of indigenous peoples being “prepared” for the gospel—often sensing there must be a higher God even without missionary contact.
-
Paul’s letters (Romans 2): Debate exists over whether Paul is referring to Gentile Christians or “righteous pagans,” but Tom prefers to emphasize scriptural passages affirming both (1) the uniqueness of Christ and (2) God’s universal caring reach.
-
God’s Generosity: God as Creator leaves a witness in all creation; some respond to the light they’re given.
“The danger with saying anything like this... is that many Christians will say, if I hadn’t been told, you’ve got to believe in Jesus, you’ve got to say this prayer... then I wouldn’t have bothered... Let’s just live with that ambiguity.”
– Tom Wright [29:19] -
Rejects Dividing the World Too Neatly: “For us to back project and say... all these billions... never had any chance, and so they were going to hell—no. What God does with those people is what God does with those people.”
-
Evangelistic Imperative Remains: Tom doesn’t want to “water down” the biblical call to repentance and faith in Christ.
Mike Bird’s Take:
- Cites Romans 11:32: “God has consigned all people to disobedience, so that he may have mercy on all.” [31:32]
- Affirms: God is just and merciful—“Will not the Lord of all the earth do what is right?”
- Discusses African traditional religion as, potentially, a “preparation for the gospel” (praeparatio evangelica) [32:40]
- Argues all cultures have some anticipation of the gospel and that God’s mercy is mysterious but trustworthy.
NT Wright’s Final Thoughts:
- Warns against Western preoccupation with “heaven and hell” as a paradigm for salvation (roots this in medieval rather than New Testament theology).
- Affirms: Not a universalist; persistent idolatry deconstructs humanness, yet God will not coerce people into salvation.
“It’s part of the love of God that God will not force. God, in his love, will grieve over them, but say, you have chosen your own way, which is a scary thought.”
– Tom Wright [34:24] - Emphasizes there’s hope for those “following the light they’ve been given,” like Cornelius, but this doesn’t undermine the urgency of the gospel.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the “Perfect Church” Myth:
“If you find a perfect church, don’t join it because you will spoil it.”
– Tom Wright [05:23] -
Distinguishing Issues in Church Life:
“How do you tell the difference between the differences that make a difference, and those that don’t?”
– Tom Wright [05:58] -
On Church Shopping:
“Pray, pray with your family, pray with friends, ask for wisdom... the prayer becomes then focused: Lord, is this a place not only where I can be fed myself, but where I can be part of the outworking of the gospel in the immediate world?”
– Tom Wright [13:37] -
On Liturgy:
“I am a passionate believer in the wisdom of good, proper liturgy… so that people are not being joggled around… but can relax and concentrate on the meaning of the words.”
– Tom Wright [15:33] -
On Doctrine and Bible Story:
“Doctrines are like portable stories... But when you get to the other end, you open the suitcase and unpack it... doctrines are the shorthand, portable versions of the overall Bible story.”
– Tom Wright [18:06] -
On Salvation and the Unreached:
“What God does with those people is what God does with those people.”
– Tom Wright [30:48] -
On God’s Justice:
“Will not the Lord of all the earth do what is right?”
– Mike Bird [31:46]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:00 | How to choose a church tradition; imperfections of churches
- 05:23 | “If you find a perfect church, don’t join it…”
- 13:37 | How to pray and discern about church involvement
- 14:13 | “Green flags” for a good church
- 15:07 | Red flags: leadership and worship concerns
- 18:06 | Doctrines as “portable stories”
- 19:46 | Catechism recommendations for youth
- 23:24 | Main question: Did God create 100 billion people just to send them to hell?
- 25:09 | Scriptural precedents (Acts 10–11, Acts 17)
- 29:19 | Ambiguity over salvation of the unevangelized
- 31:32 | Paul on God’s mercy in Romans 11
- 34:24 | The love of God and human resistance
Conclusion & Takeaways
This episode thoughtfully explores why no church tradition is perfect and offers scriptural guidance for choosing a spiritual home, emphasizing unity, respect, and the primacy of scripture and mission. On the fate of the “unevangelized,” Tom Wright and Mike Bird avoid false binaries, instead pointing to God’s self-revelation, mercy, and the mysterious workings of grace. The encouragement is to trust God’s justice and generosity, and to remain diligent in mission and formation—both for adults in church life and young people learning the faith.
Summary by [your assistant], distilling key moments and quotations, for those who seek theological depth and scriptural wisdom without listening to the full recording.