C (3:00)

Well, Melbourne is cold, wet and miserable. It's like a little bit of Scotland has landed upon us a little bit. I need to brighten my day by hearing some good questions from our listeners and posting them to you, Tom. And we do have a question from a listener in Beverly, usa. This is a question, I think it's a good one, about choosing a good church. And this is what our listener asks. I was raised a Roman Catholic in the late 60s and 70s, but I received almost no education from the church about the church or about Christianity during those years. Everything I learned I learned largely through my own efforts. Some college studies, then the positive influence of one of my siblings. I always enjoyed going to church and felt a strong yearning as a young person to be a follower of Jesus. My faith was very strong when I was younger, but I struggled at times with it during my adult life. I briefly studied theology and religion in college as an adult student, but I never finished my studies. I do not at this time regularly attend any church. I do not consider myself a Catholic because of the issues I have with that church, but will attend Mass there sometimes, perhaps because it is familiar. I am interested in finding a church tradition that I can embrace. I've attended Greek Orthodox, Methodist, Anglican, Congregational, and even Pentecostal churches. I've liked aspects of all of them, but I just do not know where I belong. Is it okay to shop around to find a church tradition? I do not do this lightly. Is one tradition better than or more correct than any other? How does one choose a church? How do you reconcile that you may not agree with a church's particular beliefs or doctrines while feeling that it is an otherwise good match for you? I apologize for the length of the question. Thank you, Tom. Is there one church tradition that's more correct than all the others? Is there one that's a little bit ahead in the race to be the church that's more biblical and more Christ focused than others? Do you have a church that you would recommend to our listener?

B (5:20)

It is very, very difficult. The mantra that I remember hearing when I was a student, when many of us back in the 60s this was were asking exactly this question. Faced with the multitude of churches in a town like Oxford when I was a student here, Oxford has churches on every street corner and college chapels and so on. And as students, you'd be comparing them. Oh, well, in this one, this happens. In that one, they teach that and so on. And I remember somebody wise saying, as a way of saying, just look, shut up and get on with it. They're saying, if you find a perfect church, don't join it because you will spoil it. In other words, we are all imperfect, and if we bring our imperfections into the putative perfect church, then that will no longer be a perfect church. So that's a way of saying, hey, lighten up, guys. All churches are highly likely to have things that they are getting wrong, either in their teaching or in their practice or something. The question then comes, how much wrong is kind of matters? And how much is it important to be at least on track with the basics or whatever. And then this morphs over the last 50 years into some quite serious questions which are dividing churches as we speak on various issues of particularly sexual ethics, but also other related and unrelated topics. And the question comes in the form, how do you tell the difference between the differences that make a difference and the differences that don't make a difference? In other words, in 1 Corinthians, Paul is quite clear that there are some things which radically do make a difference in chapters five and six, certain lifestyles, which he doesn't say, well, some of us believe in this, some of us believe in that, so we won't judge one another. He's got incest in mind. For instance, in chapter five, he doesn't say, well, some of us think that's okay and some of us don't, so who cares? He says, no, if somebody is doing this, then they must be thrown out until they repent, et cetera. But later on in the book, in chapters 8, 9 and 10, he's talking about people who have different opinions over whether they should eat food that has been offered to idols. That may seem a rather recondite issue to us, but it's a hugely important thing actually, in Corinth. And once you translate it out in today's world as well. And Paul says, look, this is a matter of conscience, and you can't force someone else's conscience. And if you respect one another and love one another, then you will take care not to place burdens on one another's conscience. And he has a similar argument, slightly different point, but a similar argument in Romans 14:15, where he's urging church unity across the Jew Gentile divide, and says for the sake of that, then the Jewish food laws and the Sabbath laws, even though some people believe that they really should be following them, they are actually things that shouldn't make a difference within the so in Other words, there are New Testament parameters for saying some things are absolutely red lines. You do not cross those. And other things are, well, this is a matter of conscience and difference of opinion, et cetera. And then the letter to the Ephesians is so important as stressing the unity of the church despite the multiplicity of its various forms that it takes. And somehow on good days, I look out at all the different denominations and I think, yeah, that's what Ephesians looks like. It's all these different things, but actually they're all coming back to the same point. Other days, on bad days, I think, well, that church is really getting it wrong there. The church I am part of is horribly getting it wrong there. What on earth are we going to do? And I look around and I don't see any church that I say ticks all the boxes, gets all the green lines instead of the red lines, as it were. So then what do you do? And I think at that point I want to say that though basic doctrinal definition and fundamental teaching that a church will offer, those really matter, but I don't think they should be pressed on and on and on to further and further definition. I have worked with movements like InterVarsity Fellowship where there was a basis of faith which was drawn up, I'm not sure when, early 20th century, I think, which was making certain points which were really important in the first half of the 20th century. But actually I would now say some of those, the way they did it was actually misleading and was less biblical than they thought it was. So when I'm now asked to sign the interfasti basis of faith, if I have to go and speak at a university Christian union or something, I will say to the organizers, well, do you know what? I know what clause seven was supposed to be about. I know why they said that. I affirm why they said that. I wouldn't myself put it that way because I trust the Bible over ahead of anything else on this. So for me, I would be hoping for a church fellowship in which the Bible was taken with utmost seriousness, not necessarily predicting what interpretations of different passages you would have and in which there was latitude of behavior in terms of how worship was conducted, what worshippers were supposed to do and not to do. You know, there are some churches where if you cross yourself, everyone will heave a sigh of relief and think, well, they're all right. While in other churches if you cross yourself, people think, oh no, that's terrible, that's idolatrous. Now, stuff like that, like raising your Hands in worship. When you're singing a worship song, some people, that's just what you do. It comes naturally and it's a matter of delight. Other Christians think, who are these people? Are they making Nazi salutes or what are they doing? And we need to learn to respect one another across different cultural boundaries. And perhaps then at some point sit down over a coffee or a beer and say, just tell me how that works. Because where I come from, we would be quite worried if someone was doing that in church and try to demystify the things which shouldn't really divide us, but at the same time be prepared to address the things which really do seem important and they're the criterion. The criterion is Scripture itself. But Scripture not by itself, but Scripture as the witness to Jesus and to who God is in Jesus and by the Spirit for us. So, yes, I've attended Greek Orthodox, Methodist, Anglican, Congregational and Pentecostal churches as well. I have had good fellowship with people in all of those and more, more besides. But for myself, obviously, I'm an Anglican. One of the things that Anglicans like to think about themselves is that we sort of sit in the middle. We don't have a huge apparatus of dogmatic definition. We are not very good at facing the question about the differences that make a difference and the differences that they don't. We're trying to struggle with that at the moment. But the great thing about Anglicanism is that we say that the Bible and the creeds are the kind of basis, and if somebody can come along and say, well, actually the Bible, Bible is teaching this, or this is where the creeds are going to lead us, then we need to pay serious attention to that and not rule them out of court because they don't happen to agree with our 16th or 17th century formulations, like the 39 articles. The 39 articles are a guideline for those times and subsequently, but they are not a replacement. They are not like the Westminster Confession. So for me, there is something both very helpful and potentially risky about the almost minimal Anglican definition. It's not as minimal as some churches, but it is minimal in that it's basic. It's the Bible and the very early church. What did they teach? Are we sure we're in line with that? That's a start. But I'm well aware that in many parts of the world you won't find churches embodying that Anglican ideal. And then it may well be that you will. This is the practical advice that pray, pray with your family, pray with friends, ask for wisdom and don't just church hop, but sometimes a bit of church hopping may be necessary so that the prayer becomes then focused. Lord, is this a place not only where I can be fed myself, but where I can be part of the outworking of the gospel in the immediate world? Is this a place where I could be part of the Kingdom team who are doing Kingdom of God stuff in that local community? Those would be the questions that I would want to ask.

C (14:13)

So, Tom, if we think in terms of flags, your green flag for what would be a good church is somewhere where holy scripture is prized, esteemed and preached. It would be somewhere where there is a freedom in worship, in a sense of self expression, and somewhere where people feel like they can serve and participate as part of God's mission in the world. If those are the green flags, what would you say are the red flags? What's something you see, you think, whoa, this may not be a good place for me. What would be a red flag for a church that people might not want.

B (14:52)

To be at at the moment? Obviously there are questions of sexual ethics which are major on the table and the Bible is very clear about that. And that's a very difficult issue which we could get into, but we're not going to, because whatever we say is going to be misunderstood and so on. But at the same time, I would also say that if you have a church where it appears that one or two people are becoming dominant personalities who are forcing their views and their personality on the church, I would want to say that doesn't look like wise spiritual leadership. Wise spiritual leadership is an enabling thing rather than a compelling thing. There are times when compulsion may be necessary, but normally wise Christian leadership is releasing people to be who God is calling them to be. I should say, by the way, when I say, yeah, a latitude of how worship is conducted. I am a passionate believer in the wisdom of good proper liturgy and it being well ordered so that people are not being joggled around when they come to church, but they know what the order of events is going to be, they know how this works, and they can relax and then concentrate on the meaning of the words rather than on, oh my goodness, what's going to happen now, which is a very disturbing and distracting kind of jerky thing. So I believe in freedom of expression, but I also very firmly believe in good liturgy being done well and meaningfully and joyfully.

C (16:27)

So let's pivot from churches to catechisms because we've got a question from Abraham Sanchez in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. Hola, Abraham. And he's got a question about bringing up children in the faith, and he asks, what is Tom's favorite catechism? Do you have any resource recommendations for teaching doctrine to young children besides God's Big Picture Bible Storybook, which we love? Thank you. Now, Tom, what's this little storybook for children you've written? What is it?

B (17:04)

Okay. Well, I was very surprised to be asked to write this, but actually I eventually quite enjoyed it. My Big Picture Story Bible in America. It comes out as God's Big Picture Story Bible. They just changed the title for whatever reason. But there is some doctrine hidden in that. It's not just telling a lot of Bible stories because with each passage we have a little thing in the margin which says, where else is this in the Bible? And then there's other cross references which people can look back to or look forward to. And many readers, many parents who've read this with children have said to me, that's a really helpful bit. And my kids really like chasing up. How does that story work and how does it fit with the larger narrative world? And you see, I see Christian doctrine as basically a formulaic version of saying, this is what the story of the Bible is all about. So for me, it isn't Bible over there. Doctrine over there doctrine is the bringing together. I've sometimes said that doctrines are like portable stories. You know, I've just come back from a trip. I had one big suitcase with almost all that I'd got in it. When I was packing up, I got things from there, from here, from everywhere else, put them in the case, because if you try to hold them all in your arms, you're never going to get on the plane or you'll drop them all if you do so. That a doctrine is a way of putting those great floppy multiple stories into one suitcase called Trinity, atonement, whatever it is, so that you can then discuss them, like carrying the suitcase from one place to another. But when you get to the other end, you open the suitcase and unpack it and hang out the clothes in the wardrobe and put the books on the bookshelf, et cetera. In other words, don't imagine that doctrine is the reality and the Bible is just an illustration of it. The doctrines are the shorthand, the portable versions of the overall Bible story. And we've got to keep that right. Having said all that, I confess I have never had a favorite catechism. When I was young, preparing for confirmation, for whatever reason, the people who prepared me for confirmation did not use a catechism as Such, the Anglican Church that I grew up in had a catechism, but it was not a big feature. And so when I then met other catechisms, I thought, oh, fancy learning your doctrine that way. That was never how I did it. But I know that there are good catechisms out there. And I think, Mike, I think you said you've got an Akner catechism, which I have not seen or used.

C (19:46)

I've got one. It's called To Be a Christian. It was put together principally by JI Packer, and this is the official catechism of the Anglican Communion in North America. And this is what I use with my teenage boys. Now, I wouldn't use it for children, but definitely for teenagers. Some of it is, I think, quite useful. It's very easy to read and to learn. I like that. The second question in this catechism is, what is the gospel? I'm a big fan of a gospel centered theological framework. That's kind of what I've done in my own theological methodology. So, yeah, that's one that I tend to use in my family. But there's another one. I think there's what's called the. The New City Catechism. I think that was put together by Tim Keller and his church in New York City. That's very popular, but again, that might be a bit older. The other thing people might want to consider doing is writing their own catechism for children and maybe using something like the Apostles Creed as a model. So start off with the question, well, who is God? Why did God create the world? Who is God's son? So you might want to, you know, create your own catechism, but there's a lot of good resources for children. Earlier, you and I, Tom, were speaking with our producer Nancy about Colin Buchanan's songs, which are very popular in Australia and parts of the uk. That's a great way to learn scripture verses, but, yeah, I'd love to hear from our listeners. What are some of the great ways of discipling children that they've come across otherwise? That's probably a good point for us to take a break, but when we come back, we're going to get into a very difficult topic of divine mercy and wrath. Did God create a hundred billion people just to send them to hell? We'll be back to answer that question after this break.

B (21:48)

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B (22:51)

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C (23:24)

Hey, welcome back. During the break, Tom and I were talking about the legacy of J.I. packer and John Stott, and we think that would make a great discussion point for one of our bonus episodes. So stay tuned in the future. We'll revisit that in one of our bonus episodes for the Ask nt Write Anything podcast. But let's get to another question that we've been asked from one listener. And this is a good question. I mean, it's one that really stirs the emotion, may get a lot of reactions out of people. It's about divine mercy and wrath. Now our listener asks. Many historians and other census experts believe well over 100 billion people have lived at one time or another on earth, and yet the majority have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. How do Christians reconcile the belief that God loves all men, and I'd say women too, and wants to have a relationship with them, yet the majority have never heard of him or Jesus. Now Tom, I think this question is a good point. Did God create a hundred billion people, most of whom never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus merely because of geography or the accidents of history? And are they damned for all time simply because of where they were born, where they were raised? And they never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel. And this could be a good segue to discuss inclusive, exclusive and universal ideas of salvation.

B (25:09)

It is a great question. I want to say that the early Christians were not unaware of these issues, but they were so urgently dealing with the things they were dealing with that we don't have a great deal in the New Testament which relates directly to this question. There's a couple of passages I would go to by way of starting and by the way, in terms of theological method, if we start with our puzzles, then we may get into difficulties. But if we quickly anchor ourselves in at least some scriptural texts, that may be a help. In a previous episode, I mentioned the story of Peter visiting the house of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11. And it's a very interesting passage because Cornelius is a Gentile, he's a centurion, but he's already been saying his prayers and been giving alms and is respected by the Judeans, the Jews who live around where he. On the coast in Palestine, where he's in charge of his army unit. And suddenly he's saying his prayers and he has a vision where an angel says, cornelius, your prayer has been heard. Your almsgiving has been remembered. Send somebody to find this chap Peter, because he's got something to say to you. And so Cornelius, to his surprise, sends people off. They fetch Peter, and when Peter arrives, he doesn't say, as I said before, Cornelius, you obviously have a wonderful religious experience already. Far be it from me to impose on you. Let's just shake hands and agree, you've got your way to God and I've got mine. No. Peter starts telling him about Jesus. And as he tells him about Jesus, the Holy Spirit falls on all who are listening. And Peter says, wow, they need to be baptized. What I detect from here, though Luke isn't primarily concerned in this passage with this question, but what I detect here is something about a sense of God as creator of all human beings and God as the generous God who knows all human beings. And as Paul says in Acts 17, he wants all human beings to feel after him and find him. That's a wonderful statement in Acts 17. That doesn't mean that all human beings are automatically God worshipers. It means that there is something about the magnetic pull of the God in whose image we are all made. And some human beings will always be drawn in that direction. I remember talking to a friend who'd been a missionary for many, many years in other parts of the world who said that in all the missionary literature, there are tales of missionaries going to tribes and countries and peoples who had never heard anything about Jesus or indeed about the anc, ancient Judean or Israelite traditions. And yet when the Gospel was presented to them, some of them would say, we thought there must be something like this because we were unsatisfied with what we were told by our local people. But we thought that probably there was a high God who might actually do something to rescue us or whatever. In other words, it looks as though the missionary experience and the witness of scriptures like Acts 10 and 11 and Acts 17 are pointing in that direction. The passage in Paul, which is sometimes cited here will be Romans 2, where Paul talks about people in whose hearts it appears that the law has been written. Now, that's a very debatable passage because several of us, myself included, have actually concluded that that's probably about Gentile Christians having the law written on their hearts. However, not everybody agrees with that. And this would be Romans 2:14 following about those whose conscience bears witness and their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes excuse them. I wouldn't use that as a basis, but I would go to those passages in Acts and say that as the church develops them through the second and third and fourth centuries, there is a sense both that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that the God who sent Jesus is the creator of all who has not left himself without witness. As Paul says in Acts 14, that there are signs of the presence of the loving Creator God in all creation, and that where people respond to that, then God the Father accepts them. But actually there's a sort of sense of incompleteness. Now, the danger with saying anything like this, obviously I'm well aware of this, is that many, many Christians will say, well, if I hadn't been told, you've gotta believe in Jesus, You've gotta say this prayer. You've got to put your faith in him now, or otherwise it'll be for the worse for you that if you say, oh, well, actually, you could have gone bumbling along in whatever vague God sense you had. If I'd been told that, then I wouldn't have bothered saying that prayer. And I might not now be a Christian. And I wanna say, let's just live with that ambiguity because nothing that I've said is intended to detract in any way from the urgent imperative to all people to repent. Believe right now, whoever you are, wherever you are. But it's a way of saying, don't imagine then that we can divide up the world and say that in the ages long gone, before Abraham, before Jesus and there were all these billions of people who never had any chance, and so they were going to hell. No, what God does with those people is what God does with those people. And for us to try to back project and say that because they didn't tick the box on the form that we now do in systems, therefore they were all completely missing out. So we've somehow got to hold those two together. I know that's not always easy. It may sound as though it may be watering down something, but I don't want to water down anything. I do want to give full measure to Acts 11, Acts 14, Acts 17. And I would suggest that anyone who's worried about all that should study those passages very carefully and pray for a vision of the generosity of God in the larger world.

C (31:32)

Yeah, I've always reminded of Paul's words at the end of Romans 11 that God has consigned God's people. Sorry, God has consigned all people over disobedience, so he may have mercy on all. And there is a level in which I simply, you know, I wonder, what is the mystery of God's mercy and how does that reach other people? Like, I don't want to be a universalist. I can't be a universalist because I believe there is no salvation outside of Christ. But I take solace in the fact that God is merciful. And as you know, as it says in Genesis, will not the Lord of all the earth do what is right? And that's what I often appeal to. And I've had the pleasure of setting essays on this topic for students. And one essay I get students to analyze is how do indigenous African religions relate to divine revelation? And some people will say that it's just idolatry and paganism and animism. Some will say that God was revealing himself imminently in African religion. And others would say, well, no, it's often mistaken, sometimes idolatrous. But some parts of it can be a preparation for the gospel. And I think that part of a, you know, I think a preparatory evangelium, a preparation for the gospel in some sense, is what you see Paul saying in Acts 17 and his speech in the Areopagus. Like even your own poets have said, you know, he's the one in whom we live and move and have our being. That all cultures have something that anticipates the gospel and that provides a point of contact that makes the gospel intelligible within a given culture. I mean, would you agree with that, Tom?

B (33:27)

Yeah, I basically would. And as I say, from one point of view, that does mean that we should expect there to be many who, like Cornelius, are, the old phrase used to be, who are following the light that they have been given so far and that God having given them that light as they are following him. In the case of Cornelius, God sends Peter and Cornelius believes in Jesus, the Holy Spirit falls on him, they are baptized, et cetera, et cetera. Now, supposing somebody else down the street had also been following the light they knew but hadn't got that visitation from Peter, what would have happened to them? And I think here, this is where our modern Western obsession with heaven and hell maybe leading us astray. It actually goes back to the Middle Ages. It doesn't go back to the New Testament. And like you, I am not a universalist. I couldn't be a universalist. There are plenty of passages in the New Testament which say, in effect, that when people persist in worshiping idols, then their image bearing humanness simply deconstructs and they are asking to become less and less fully human. And I think sooner or later, actually it's part of the love of God that God will not force. That God in his love will grieve over them. But say you have chosen your own way, which is a scary thought. But then when you see the Corneliuses or when you see people in athens in Acts 17 who maybe are sitting there thinking, oh my, yeah, I see there might be something there pointing in that direction, then we have to allow for that without cutting the nerve of the actual appeal of the gospel. And of course, part of the difficulty there is that there are many styles of evangelism which have been laying it down the line. Unless you come forward and say a prayer right now, then supposing you die tonight, you will go to hell. And I'm not saying that's entirely wrong. I'm saying that it might just be misleading when you project it onto the larger set of issues that we're dealing with.

C (35:33)

Well, Tom, that's a great point, and that's probably a great point to end our program. So thank you to everyone who submitted questions. They were some great ones. Remember, you can send us your question@askantyright.com and if you go there, you can also subscribe to our bonus episodes. And don't forget to the fantastic premier Christian network. There are a number of other programs and podcasts you can listen to, such as Unbelievable or the podcast and C.S. lewis. There really is so many great resources in the premier Christian network. If you want to fill your heart and your minds with edifying and encouraging thoughts. I really do encourage you to get into the premier Christian network. Well, that's all from us. I'm Mike Bird.

B (36:26)

And I'm Tom Wright and we look.

C (36:29)

Forward to seeing you on the next episode of Ask NT Wright.

B (36:33)

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