Ask NT Wright Anything – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is Online Church REAL Church?
Date: November 30, 2025
Host: Mike Bird
Guest: Tom (NT) Wright

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Bird and NT Wright respond to listener questions on church models, the legitimacy of online church, liturgical additions to the Lord’s Prayer, textual variants in the New Testament, and the influence of New Age practices in Christianity. Their engaging conversation balances biblical insight, personal reflection, and practical wisdom, offering thoughtful answers to contemporary concerns.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Institutional vs. Relational Church Models

[02:40–10:34]

• Listener Question: Malone Dunleavy asks about reconciling the event-driven, program-focused Western church with the biblical ideal of a daily, communal Christian life.
• Mike Bird sets up the discussion by quoting Nick Perrin:

  “The church has often become a weekly meeting of Jesus's Facebook friends... we all live our lives independently. But once a week, all of Jesus's Facebook friends get together.” (06:09)

• NT Wright's main points:
  • Recommends seeking a "both/and" approach rather than "either/or" between structured services and lived community.
  • Community forms are influenced by culture, class, and personality differences (some prefer lots of social interaction, others need space).
  • Early church communities were often small, house-based (e.g., Philemon), but today’s context differs.
  • Notable Quote:

    “You can’t force a detailed and rich community on people. It just depends entirely on the demographic... It's not a good idea for the church to come in and either say we only ought to have services... or we all ought to be in each other's pockets and in and out of each other's houses all the time.” (07:49)

  • Importance of embracing diversity and not being “too either-or-ish” about church models.

Memorable Moment

• Tom’s vivid comparison:

  “We have still these things called pubs in England... The point of a pub is that it’s a public house because people didn’t go into each other's houses... So lots of people would meet in the public house and ... discuss the issues of the day... and that culture has almost entirely gone...” (06:55)

2. Is Online Church "Real" Church?

[10:34–13:51]

• Mike Bird raises the pandemic-driven question: can online church be a surrogate for embodied church?

  “Is online church church, or is that the danger of us adopting a more disembodied digital persona?” (10:46)

• NT Wright:
  • Online church in extreme situations (like COVID) is “better than nothing.”
  • Historically, Anglican practice is to visit shut-ins, bringing them bread and wine as an extension of the gathered body—a “kind of emergency measure, not the ideal.”
  • Emphasizes incarnation:

    “The whole gospel and New Testament is about real people, real communities. The word became flesh and dwelt among us, not. The word became something in the ether which we could scoop up on a screen.” (13:33)

• Physical gathering is normative and irreplaceable for Christian worship and sacraments.

Notable Exchange

• Mike:

  “Yeah, the word became flesh. It didn't become an algorithm.” (13:51)

3. The Doxology in the Lord’s Prayer

[13:51–18:35]

• Listener Question: Chris Mundy asks why many churches add, "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory…" which isn't in the earliest gospel manuscripts.
• Tom Wright's response:
  • The longer ending is a very early liturgical addition, not present in earliest texts but "from the very early church."
  • Early Christians often supplemented biblical texts in worship, similar to the use of the Creed or doxologies after psalms.

  • “It's a way of saying we're incorporating this within the larger life of the church, even though we recognize that the psalm itself doesn't have that... So I have no problem about using that traditional Trinitarian finishing point.” (16:30)

• Seeing these additions as part of living tradition rather than problematic alterations.

Memorable Story

• Tom recalls as a choir boy, new members would accidentally say the doxology at the wrong time, “and the rest was, shh. You know? No, we don't do that this time.” (15:30)

4. Handling New Testament Textual Variants

[18:35–23:20]

• Mike Bird asks if Tom’s same logic (embracing liturgical additions) applies to famous textual variants (e.g., the woman caught in adultery; trinitarian formula in 1 John).
• NT Wright:
  • Some additions (e.g., John 8) are very early, possibly make narrative sense, but likely not original.
  • The trinitarian expansion in 1 John is a clearer later addition by scribes, reflecting theological concerns.
  • Argues for a nuanced, less rigid approach:

    “We need to lighten up a bit. And this has to do with the doctrines of inspiration and preservation of Scripture... The inspiration that's going on when God wants to give us this book is all bound up with the ongoing worshiping and witnessing life of the church...” (21:26)

  • Highlights the richness and abundance of early manuscripts versus ancient texts like Cicero or Seneca.

Notable Quote

“I'd rather have that sense of being part of that vivid, lively community than have a sort of mechanical thing where the Holy Spirit Inspired a text 2000 years ago and then it kind of drops down into our laps as though here it is, take it or leave it.” (22:34)

5. Has New Age Spirituality Infiltrated Christianity?

[25:48–35:10]

• Listener Question: Charlotte Schemerhorn asks about the influence of New Age and other spiritualities on Christian practice (e.g., mindfulness, candles, chants).
• Mike Bird: Mindfulness is popular but has Buddhist or secular roots; asks Tom’s view and for examples.
• NT Wright:
  • Historic concerns about the New Age were sometimes tied to antisemitic or anti-material tendencies (e.g., Nazi paganism as "escape from the real world").
  • Warns against seeing Christianity as 100% unlike everything else; Acts 17 shows Paul affirming "signals of the true God's presence" in other cultures.
  • Many practices (incense, meditative prayer) have ancient Christian roots and may echo or overlap with other traditions.
  • Example: The Jesus Prayer in Eastern Christianity is repetitive but biblically rich.

    “If somebody then suddenly said in the 70s or 80s, now... we’re gonna sing a chorus which is very easy and simple, and we'll go on and on and on and on singing it until we all arrive at a new state... Some people would have found that rather exciting. Other people would have said, no, sorry, this is vain repetition.” (28:10)

  • The point is discernment: Christians should avoid denialist dualism and not fear every similarity to other religions, but also recognize when a practice conflicts with core beliefs (e.g., goddess spirituality).

  • “We have to be wise, we have to be discerning, but we mustn't be dualist. We mustn't say that there's nothing outside the church from which we can possibly learn... In the Bible, we can lighten up.” (32:36)

• Mike Bird sums up the balance:

  “Where I draw the line is when people start talking about, you know, finding the Goddess within... That's probably a sign that something weird is going on.” (35:10)

Notable Quotes

• On Embodied Church (Tom Wright, 13:33):
  “The word became flesh and dwelt among us, not... something in the ether which we could scoop up on a screen.”

• On Traditions and Liturgical Additions (Tom Wright, 16:30):
  “It seems to me perfectly fair enough to take from the very early church... that ascription of thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory.”

• On Textual Variants and Inspiration (Tom Wright, 21:26):
  “One of the glories of the New Testament is we've got more early manuscripts... than any other text from the ancient world. ... The inspiration that's going on... is bound up with the ongoing worshiping and witnessing life of the church.”

• On New Age Practices and Discernment (Tom Wright, 32:36):
  “We have to be wise, we have to be discerning, but we mustn’t be dualist... In the Bible, we can lighten up.”

Key Timestamps

• 02:40 – Malone's question on church models: events vs. community
• 06:09 – Nick Perrin’s “Facebook friends” church analogy
• 06:55–10:34 – Wright discusses sociocultural/personal factors in church community
• 10:34–13:33 – Is online church real church? Wright’s incarnational theology
• 13:51–18:35 – Doxology in the Lord’s Prayer and early liturgical additions
• 18:35–23:20 – Handling textual variants and biblical inspiration
• 25:48–35:10 – New Age practices and Christian spirituality
• 35:10 – Drawing boundaries: “finding the Goddess within” as a red flag

Conclusion

In their characteristically thoughtful and generous dialogue, Mike Bird and NT Wright bring clarity and perspective to issues at the heart of modern Christian life—community, embodiment, tradition, scripture, and discernment in spirituality. Their answers affirm both historic grounding and the need for wise, gracious engagement with contemporary challenges.