Ask NT Wright Anything: "Is Salvation Fair?"

Podcast: Ask NT Wright Anything
Host: Premier Unbelievable (Mike Bird)
Guest: NT (Tom) Wright
Date: January 19, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Mike Bird sits down in-person with NT Wright to tackle tough listener questions on the fairness of salvation, the historical and ethical challenges of the church, the meaning of the “Son of Man” in the Gospels, and whether Israel’s apparent lack of salvation undermines Christian claims about Jesus as Messiah. The discussion is rich, nuanced, and peppered with personal stories and academic insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Christianity “Bad” Given Its Checkered History?

(Start: 04:38)
Question from Kevin Ewart (Boston, MA): How do we address the legacy of violence, hypocrisy, and destruction in Christian history, often cited as a reason for disbelief?

NT Wright’s Response:

• Honest Acknowledgment:
  “We need to acknowledge right up front all that's said here that of course the Church has done lots of... things which we rightly today would regard as wicked.” (04:38)
• Nuanced History:
  Not all events should be painted identically—more nuance is required (e.g., colonialism is debated; Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, etc., are more clear-cut in violence and hypocrisy).
• Lost Focus:
  The preoccupation with “how people go to heaven” distracted from the imperatives in teachings like the Sermon on the Mount.

  “It's almost as though the Church allowed itself to become so fixated on how people go to heaven that they didn't notice all the other imperatives…” (05:50)

• Christian Influence on Morality:
  Even modern critiques of Christianity often use Christian values to judge it.

  “Christianity has made different kinds of advances... the conscience of the whole world has changed.” (07:40) He gives examples like the modern horror at infanticide and slavery, which weren’t objectionable in ancient times, but became so through Christian moral development.

• Secularism Built on Christian Values:
  Enlightenment and secular avenues often try to “reproduce the results of Christian culture without giving allegiance to the God of the Bible.” (10:23)

Mike Bird echoes:
“Even when Christianity is being critiqued, it's usually being critiqued with Christian values.” (09:44)

2. What is the “Coming of the Son of Man” in Matthew?

(Start: 12:39)
Question from Josh McKay (Nebraska): Is Jesus “coming” or “going” when he refers to the Son of Man? Does this refer to the ascension, the second coming, or something else?

NT Wright’s Response:

• Rooted in Daniel 7:
  The “coming” of the Son of Man is grounded in Daniel 7—where the Son of Man is exalted to the divine throne room, receiving authority after being vindicated.
• Key Illustration:
  Story of an “angry young Baptist” wanting to insist Jesus is “coming,” not going—NT responds that the Greek (erchomenos) can mean both. Context (Daniel 7) makes it clear: the Son of Man is being vindicated and enthroned, not returning to earth.

  “He [the Son of Man] is exalted to sit beside the Ancient of Days... and is given authority over the nations. That is such a, to me, an obvious interpretation...” (15:08)

• Matthew 24 & Misreadings:
  Many readings take Matthew 24 to be about the end of the world, but NT Wright sees it as focused on the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple—a cataclysm for first-century Jews.

  “If the temple is destroyed, this is, as it were, the end of the world... So then I would say Matthew 24 fits perfectly well.” (17:12)

• Vindication not (just) Second Coming:
  These passages are about Jesus' vindication and enthronement, not a “cloud-surfing” second coming.

  “He’s not saying in a thousand years or whatever… he basically says, look, you can sentence me to death, but I am going to be vindicated...” (18:51)

• Not Denying the Second Coming:
  NT clarifies he absolutely affirms the second coming; his view sharpens understanding, not denies orthodox belief.

  “Of course, Jesus says... this same Jesus who you saw go into heaven will come in the same way…” (20:11)

Mike Bird summarizes:
“It really does require moving the mental furniture in your head… but I find it just makes so much more sense.” (18:09)

3. Why Isn’t (All) Israel Saved? Is There a Dual Path for Jews and Christians?

(Start: 22:14)
Question from Andrew Brown (UK): Romans 9–11 suggests a distinction between “believing” and “ethnic” Israel—is this valid? If Jesus is Israel’s Messiah, why hasn’t Israel (in majority) believed in Him?

NT Wright’s Response:

• Rejects Replacement Theology (Supersessionism):
  Christianity has not simply replaced Judaism; Paul would reject the idea that Jews and Christians are now separate “tracks.”

  “We would reject... that the Gentiles have replaced the Jews, and now Christianity is a Gentile phenomenon, not really Jewish. That's replacement theology... I and many others have argued strongly against that.” (23:09)

• Paul’s Grief Highlights Hope:
  Paul is in "tears" in Romans 9 and prays fervently in Romans 10 for his fellow Jews to believe.

  “Why is St. Paul in tears at the beginning of chapter nine of Romans?... Because that middle section... is all about people coming to faith...” (24:02)

• There’s Always Been a Remnant:
  “Not all who are Israel are Israel”—the point is God’s promise is being fulfilled, though not all Israel (ethnic) have believed (Rom 9:6).
• Future Hope Remains:
  More Jews can and will believe; they can be “grafted back in.”

  “They, that's Judeans, if they do not remain in unbelief, they can be grafted back in.” (27:48) But, Paul insists, the means is always faith in Jesus as Messiah.

• “All Israel will be saved” — Who is that?
  NT Wright sees a distinction—“all Israel” in Romans 11:26 may include Gentiles, as God’s true family by faith.

  “By that Paul includes ethnic Gentiles as well... And the basis for that is... the Israel of God [Galatians] and also Romans 2:25–29...” (29:28)

• Complex but Crucial:
  The ethnic, political, and ecclesial situation in Rome forms the backdrop for Paul’s careful (and hopeful) language. The “remnant” is not shrinking but expanding to include Gentiles and believing Jews.

Mike Bird responds:

• Wants to press further on whether there’s a “sonderweg” (special way) for Jews outside Christ (he and Tom agree there isn’t), and on how to avoid supersessionism entirely.

  “I disagree with you on Romans 11:26. That's right, people. Everyone says I'm like NT Wright’s press secretary... But on this one I think I might differ...” (32:01)

• They plan a bonus episode for a deeper dive on this fraught subject.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Christian History:
  “There's no reason to defend the Church's record when it's been so bad as that. I think what we need is something more nuanced about how we read the Church history...”
  —NT Wright, (04:50)

• On Secularism vs. Gospel Vision:
  “Trying to get the results of the gospel without paying the price of allegiance to the gospel, that's a real problem.”
  —NT Wright, (10:23)

• On Daniel 7's Centrality:
  “One like a son of man, comes on the clouds and is exalted to sit beside the one on the throne and to be given authority over the nations of the world...”
  —NT Wright, (15:08)

• On the “Coming of the Son of Man” Misunderstanding:
  “He basically says, look, you can sentence me to death, but I am going to be vindicated and co-enthroned with the God of Israel.”
  —Mike Bird, (18:51)

• On Romans 11 and Israel:
  “There always were two different meanings of the word Israel. Not all who are of Israel are in fact Israel.”
  —NT Wright, (25:41) “If they do not remain in unbelief, they can be grafted back in... they need to come to what Paul would regard as true Christian faith.”
  —NT Wright, (27:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:38 – Is Christianity bad? Facing Church history’s dark side
• 09:44 – Christianity’s values as society’s measuring stick
• 12:39 – The “Son of Man”: Coming or going? Daniel 7 and apocalyptic language
• 17:12 – Matthew 24, destruction of the Temple, and end-times reassessment
• 22:14 – Why isn’t Israel saved? Romans 9–11 unpacked
• 27:48 – “Grafted back in”: Paul’s hope for Jewish salvation
• 29:28 – “All Israel will be saved”: Who is “all Israel”?
• 32:01 – Plans for a bonus episode on supersessionism and Jewish-Christian relations

Tone & Flow

The conversation is warm, forthright, and both academic and accessible. Wright, with characteristic humility and scholarly depth, never dodges hard questions. Bird is a lively facilitator—challenging, affirming, and always drawing out more detail.

Summary

This episode covers the fairness of salvation, the checkered history of the church, and its present and future hope. NT Wright urges honesty about the church’s failures, but insists that Christian moral vision has profoundly shaped—and continues to challenge—the world, including its critics. On biblical interpretation, he insists that passages about the “Son of Man” and about the salvation of Israel are richer and more nuanced than common readings allow, pointing to a larger, more inclusive vision rooted in Jesus and the trajectory of Scripture.

A recommended listen for anyone wrestling with Christianity’s past, its claims about Jesus, or questions of Jewish-Christian relations and biblical prophecy.

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