A (10:26)

That's a great way to put it, Tom. You know, I was just thinking while you're saying that this is the type of thing that I don't see gets taught in a lot of churches. You know, I've never had someone pray that, you know, lord, help me to participate more in Christ's sufferings. That's what Paul prays in Philippians. He says, you know, pray that I would somehow participate in Christ's sufferings and somehow attain the resurrection of the dead. And I think this means we can have a. A problematic view of suffering. Whereas, I guess, naturally we. We want to pray. Yes, Lord, please take this burden away from me. Please take this away from me. But there's also a prayer we should pray, Lord, give me a strong back to endure it, not simply take it away from me. And I guess we need to look seriously at the sort of things that Jesus and the apostles taught and prayed about suffering. When we think of our own moments when we go through that dark night of the soul or we receive some, you know, rather grim news.

B (11:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I. When I was younger, I would run into people who said that the Gospel is God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. And I would always jump in my mind to Mark 8 when Jesus says, if anyone wants to come after me, they must deny themselves and take up their cross. Because that's actually the pattern, that which Jesus himself is going and which his followers must go. And so we have to be careful, lest in communicating the gospel, we give a false impression, which then, of course, makes people give up when bad things happen, they think, oh, dear, the whole thing's gone wrong. Obviously, this was a mistake. Now, I hope and pray that none of our listeners will have gone around that loop, but people do sometimes, so we have to be quite clear. And again and again, as we read the narrative of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And I think part of the mystery of those four Gospels is that the reader is meant to be drawn into the drama. Not that we become Jesus, as it were, but that we are his followers hanging in there and him saying, come with me. This is how it's going to be. And if they've called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they call his servants? So don't be surprised, as Peter says, going back to that, don't be surprised, surprised at the fiery trial which comes upon you. And this is actually the way to glory.

A (12:49)

Well, Tom, let's move from redemptive suffering to the Rapture. I know that's a topic near and dear to your heart. We've got a question from Janet Blake in Chaska, Minnesota, which is about the Rapture. And she says, yesterday I had a conversation with my sister who ascribes to the dispensationalist belief of the Rapture and all that entails. But I was shocked to hear her say that she believes the world is just going to get worse in the coming years. So she's not concerned because she will be raptured. It made me realize that the current political climate in the US is influenced by this kind of thinking. For example, why bother to conserve our resources or practice good care of our Earth? How do we even begin to respond to this type of thinking? I so much appreciate your podcast and books. Thank you for your help. Well, I think this, this is a problem in certain species of dispensational thought where it's like, you know, I'm not here to clean the fishbowl, I'm just here to take the fish out of the fishbowl. And that can be problematic because people don't understand the continuity between the new creation and what happens now. Tom, what do you have to say to Janet, or what could Janet possibly say to her sister that might help her change her mind?

B (14:08)

This is a very difficult one. I mean, at one level it's quite easy because the Rapture is based on a simple misreading of a well known biblical text in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. But as your correspondent has said, people who have the Rapture as a central part of their worldview often have a much larger worldview that goes with it in which the Rapture makes, the sensitive apparently makes. Now there's a recent book called the Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism by Dan Hummel H. Ummel, which I would recommend to anyone who's wrestling with this because many people, and I think this is particularly an American phenomenon, there are not many churches in England where you will get, or Scotland where you will get that specific teaching which is so prevalent in America that many people think this is Christianity, that we are looking for the signs of the end times, times. And we look out of the window and we see this or that happening. Aha. This is a sign from the book of Revelation or Daniel or somewhere. So we know that Jesus is coming back soon. So we just put on our best smile and wait to be raptured. And who cares what's going on? I have run into that again and again and again over the course of my lifetime. I've met people who've been puzzled by that. I've met people who've taught and believed that. And it's full of many misunderstandings which I and others have tried to demystify and get people back on track. But it's very interesting that the person who's being talked about there as being a Rapture person, as it were, said that the world is going to be getting worse and worse and worse because the history of the last three or four hundred years in Western thought has lurched this way and that in the 17th and early 18th century, many people in Britain and America were what's called post millennialists. That's thinking that the world is getting better and better and. And when the kingdoms of the world have finally become the kingdom of God and of His Messiah, then Jesus will return. That, by the way, is the implied eschatology behind Handel's Messiah. That the gospel spreads, then hallelujah, the Lord our God reigns. The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our God. And then, and only then, you have the resurrection of the dead. But then in the late 18th through the 19th century, there was a great turnaround, and that goes with all sorts of philosophical and social currents in America particularly. And people came to believe instead that the world was getting worse and worse and worse and that the only solution was to escape it, and that anyone who tried to improve it in the meantime was just wasting their time just oiling the wheels on a machine that was going to be falling off a cliff at some point. So why would you bother? And I've met that and you've met that, and that's a very familiar thing, which sadly then goes with all kinds of things in present day American thought about political affairs, about the Middle east and so on. Because often, and the first time I was introduced to this, and I think I've said this on these podcasts before, was when I got married. Because my late father in law, bless him, was a Scofield reference Bible man who had been converted in the 1920s through the Elim Pentecostal movement. And he had the whole thing logically worked out that when, as he would say, the Jews go back to their land, this restarts the prophetic clock. And now this generation will not pass away till it's all fulfilled. That is a specific reading and I would say misreading of Mark 13 and parallels, but I used to have quite happy arguments with my late father in law about this, but I never convinced him. He'd learned it all and it was there. So that's how I first met it. Because in my whole upbringing as an ordinary Anglican, as a teenage evangelical, I never met any of this at all. And it's worth saying because a lot of American listeners assume that that's what all Christians believe. And I want to say, really, this is a very specific American thing which came out of the fact there was an Irish clergyman called J.N. darby who came to England briefly, was not much of a success here in England, went to America and started teaching his dispensationalism and about how everyone had to get out of their denominations and join a pure denomination, which would be his, of course, and then they would be the little few who would be raptured when Jesus returned. Now, so to the rapture itself, First Thessalonians, chapter four, Paul is talking about those who have died, who have gone before us, and the anxiety of some people in the Thessalonian community who thought that the Lord was going to come back almost at once. And then there are these people who've died. So will they miss out? And the main thing Paul is saying is, no, they won't miss out and we won't miss out on them. Because in the end, when God wraps it all up, we and they together will be with the Lord. And that is the main thing. As he says in Philippians 2, my desire is to depart and be with the Messiah. And as we know from Philippians and Thessalonians, being with the Messiah after death is the prelude to the new creation, which includes the bodily resurrection. So let's be quite, quite clear about that. But then he says 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. This I say in the word of the Lord that we who are still alive will not come short on those who've already died, because the Lord will descend from heaven in the twinkling of an eye and the shout of an archangel and the trumpet of God, and the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will be raised. And then we who are left alive will be taken up. It's quite a rare Greek word, harpeke somatha will be snatched up in clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Now that's the passage which has been interpreted as that's what's going to happen. I remember. Perhaps I can say this. On this program, the late Robin Scroggs, who was professor at Union Seminary in New York, was once asked by a student, Professor Scroggs, what is the rapture? And he said, well, one day you'll look out of the window and you'll see all these people going up in the air. And you'll say to well, I'll be damned. Now, forgive me if that's the wrong sort of humor for this program, but I think that was Scroggs way of saying, okay, that's what some people believe. But let's not take that too seriously, because this is the point that the ideas that are in this passage are a combination of several things. Paul, faced with the future, the only language he's got for that is the biblical language and the language of the society of his time. And he puts them together in what we call a mixed metaphor. That is, he adds one thing on top of another. It's rather like in the book of Revelation where you get the lion who was also a lamb and seven eyes or sword coming out of his mouth. And we are not meant to construct a single picture out of all this. And in fact, the idea of the Lord descending from heaven has echoes of Moses coming down the mountain with the Lord. The idea of someone being caught up on the clouds comes straight out of Daniel 7, where it is about the vindication of the Son of Man over the beasts, the monsters. But this isn't about somebody traveling in the sky between earth and heaven. It's about the heavenly scenario, the earth plus heaven scenario, in which God vindicates his people, and the idea of vindication meeting there. The Greek word apantesis is a word that you would use in Paul's world. For if some great figure, Caesar, say, turned up in Thessalonica or Philippi or somewhere, the citizens would not sit at home waiting for him to arrive. They would go out into the countryside and meet him somewhere out there. Not in order to have a picnic out in the countryside and then go away or stay there, but in order, then royally, to a score Caesar into the city. And so the idea of meeting the Lord in the kind of interspace between heaven and earth is because he is not going to take us away. He's coming back to rule, to reign, to restore. You need Philippians 3, 20 and 21. Our citizenship is in heaven. That doesn't mean that's where we're going to go to. It means that's where we are true citizens of, while awaiting for the Lord to come from there to complete the work of redeeming and rescuing the world. Now, I've often said when talking about this, Paul is so good at mixing his metaphors. I mean, in the very next passage, the beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5, he's talking about what we might call the end times. But he says it's going to be like a thief coming in the night so that the pregnant woman is going to go into labor, so that you mustn't get drunk, but you must stay awake and you must put on your armor. And with him. Excuse me, Paul, just let's get this straight. What are we talking about here? And the answer is, we need all the images we can get to talk about both the suddenness and the convulsions and the expectancy as well. But don't expect that all these things add up to a literal wooden framework. There it is. This is going to happen, then this, then that. And so at the heart of it all, it's about the hope that God will, through Jesus and by the Spirit, and bring about the new creation in which we will be raised from the dead, and that in advance of that, those who have died are being kept safe in the nearer presence of Christ until either we go and join them while still waiting, or the waiting time is over and the new creation arrives and we will be raised from the dead. So if you take out the idea of the rapture as commonly taught from that whole dispensational structure, a whole lot of it just crumbles into dust and actually it's time to think differently about biblical eschatology and about its political implications.

A (24:36)

Very well put, Tom. Hope that benefits. Janet. You could, you could share this episode with friends and family. The other thing you could do is pick up Tom's book Surprised by Hope and the forthcoming one which releases like Imminently Homecoming. So those, those two books are effectively siblings, I believe. Tom yeah. So Janet and everyone else, if you're listening, if you want some, to help some friends, consider some different perspectives on things. Check out Surprise by Hope or the new book Homecoming.

B (25:10)

God's Homecoming is the time.

A (25:12)

God's Homecoming, that's correct. Okay, we're gonna take a break, but don't go too far because when we come back, we're going to talk about whether we become divine, not just immortal and enjoying eternal life, but do we become partakers of divine nature? On that after the break.

B (25:36)

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B (28:04)

There's one point where Jesus quotes a psalm and he says in the Psalms it says, I have said you are gods. And then Jesus says, well, if the Scripture says you are gods to those to whom the word of God came, what's the problem about me saying I'm the Son of God? That's an extraordinary argument in John's Gospel, and I'm never quite sure if Jesus has his tongue slightly in his cheek at that point. But there is much more in the biblical language about divinity and humanity, if we can use those abstracts than our normal perceptions will allow. Because most of us, I think, were brought up in a world where there was a great gulf between God and humans, and humans had to know their place and we were sinners. And if we were going to be saved by grace, that would be so that we could then go to heaven and be with God. But of course, in the New Testament very clearly it says that God is promising to send through Jesus his Holy Spirit to dwell in us and with us. Now, when you look at the New Testament language about the Holy Spirit again and again, this is not a secondary thing. The idea that the Holy Spirit is divine and the third member of the Trinity was not dreamt up in the 3rd or 4th or 5th century by some clever philosopher. It's deeply embedded within the early Christian worldview, which is itself rooted in the ancient biblical and first century Judean worldview. And the way I come to it is through the biblical theology of the temple and the dwelling of God in, well, first the tabernacle and then the temple. Because again and again the language of Exodus 40, where the glorious presence of God comes to dwell in the tabernacle and the language of 1 Kings 8, where the presence of God, God comes to dwell in the temple which Solomon's folk have built. This same language is then used by the New Testament, for instance, in Acts 2, when the spirit fills the house and fills the disciples. And also in the end of Ephesians 3, when Paul prays that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Now, the fascinating thing here is that many who read that stuff from Athanasius and other things in the larger Eastern Orthodox tradition, they may hear them as though they are saying, and I'm not sure, it's not my feel, but I'm not sure they are saying, as though they're saying that we stop being human and become divine instead. And that's simply not the case. And I don't think that's what Athanasius would have meant or any of the others at the time. I think what's going on is that we have failed often in Western Christianity to take seriously the promise of the Spirit, that if the Spirit is actually God in person, in the third person, coming to dwell within us, to transform us, to suffuse us with his own life and love, then it would be very odd to say that we were not in some sense becoming divine. But as I say those words, I can hear all sorts of people in the background saying, what do you mean becoming divine? Isn't that arrogant? Doesn't that make us proud or. Or puffed up? Absolutely not. Because the sort of divine that we would then mean is the sort of divine that we see in the Gospel story of Jesus, that the Spirit comes to make us more like Jesus. And again, we've often thought in terms of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, as they're kind of up there and we're down here. And then we read the Gospels and we find that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And then. And that same story in John's Gospel continues with all sorts of things like, this is the Jesus who wept at the tomb of his friend, or in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. This is the Jesus who wept in Gethsemane or wept over the city. This is what it means to be God incarnate. It doesn't mean that you're high and lofty and lifted up from everything. It means that you're right there where the pain and the sorrow is in order to be able to deal with it. And so the idea of the Spirit coming to dwell within us, to enable us to be carriers of the Gospel, means that as we do, that and perhaps we should say only as we do, that we are in fact embodying the love of God, embodying that is, in our bodies, in our flesh, in our mind, in our actions, in our words, etc. We are actually bringing God to people. We are, some theologians would say we are being Christ to those people. Now, we have to be careful about saying that, because if you say we are being Christ, or I heard one theologian say at a conference two or three years ago, we are Christ, I want to say, well, steady on, just hold on a minute. Because actually, Jesus, part of the whole point of the doctrine of the Trinity is that Jesus is the place where we live, if you like, but we, we are not Jesus. Jesus is the unique individual who lived and died and rose again. And the Holy Spirit makes Jesus real within us. And we have to nuance what we say. At this point, we are basically very near the edge of language. And it shouldn't surprise us or alarm us that that is so. After all, if God is God, would we expect to be able to put God into a nice neat mathematical formula? I don't think so. But we can get as far as we can get. And I think that's why for many of us, and I, as an Anglican, would say this, wouldn't I, when we eat and drink the bread and the wine in communion, part of what's going on in the symbolism of that, but in the reality of that, is to say the life of Jesus becomes our life. When you eat something, it becomes part of you. And that's part of the point of do this in remembrance of me, is that we are to become part of the life which is Jesus life, life given to us by the Spirit. So again, as with some other things, rather than start with one verse in Second Peter and say, what can we build on that one phrase? I would rather see the larger biblical picture and say, I think that's what Peter was probably talking about.

A (34:36)

Yeah, I think you're right, Tom. We don't become partakers of divine nature in the sense of becoming a divine being. And in my research on this area, what people mean by theosis varies markedly. Some people take it in purely an ethical sense that we have certain divine attributes, like being holy, righteous, just merciful. Others do take it in a kind of transformation. But then, even then, in the Greek tradition, they tend to differentiate God's essence from his energies. Okay, so we in the west, we might say imminence and transcendence. But in the east, they talk about essence and energy. So we Participate in the energies of God in the sense of what he communicates to us as in. And we receive the benefits. But I do think you're right, Tom. We've. We've got to draw this into our Christology because we don't participate in God without going through Christ and the Spirit. And some theologians you may know, a few of them have even talked about Christification or Christosis, because, you know, it's, it's, it's attaining eternal life, immortality only in union with Christ and being conformed to the pattern of Christ. So I, I tend to prefer the term Christosis to theosis, as we'd be misunderstood or be taken the wrong way.

B (36:00)

No, that, that makes a lot of sense. I think you're probably talking about our mutual friend Mike Gorman, among others, who's written about christophsis and so on, and I very much agree with that. And I think that the problem with it is that if you say the word Christosis in church or in a sermon, most people won't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. So you need to have the entire sermon explaining that before you can then make whatever point you want to make from it. But I think that Eastern distinction between essence and energies, that's a way of saying there is some distinction here. There is a rhythm, there is a movement, there is a to and fro, there is a both and, and that. You can't collapse it all into just one mass and call it divinity. I mean, the other place. I see this working out again. Romans 8. I, of course, keep on coming back to Romans 8, the word glory. We've tended in talking about glory, to think in terms of radiant light, so that going to heaven would be about going to glory. But actually the glory in Paul's thought goes Back to Psalm 8, where it's the glory of humans. Where in Psalm 8 what are humans that you are mindful of them? You've made them little lower than the angels to crown them with glory and honor, putting all things in subjection under their feet. And glory there means authority or sovereignty. It's a delegated sovereignty, a delegated authority, but it is God's glory. Earlier in Romans, Paul says, all sinned and came short of the glory of God, which I think means that. That the human race missed out on its divine vocation to be the reflection of God's wisdom into the world. And that's what's then restored in Romans 8. So there's all sorts of things where our Western traditions, I fear, have led us off down often Dualistic paths which then force us into an either or. We need to get back and say what was actually going on there. And then I think yeah, Christophsis is great but best of luck when you try to explain that from of view the point. All good.

A (38:05)

You know, I often wonder whether I when I'm doing my epic Bible nerd sermons, I need a translator next to me who's trying to making it understandable, you know, before I start talking about infra laps and the things.

B (38:23)

Is reading the Torah in in Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezra is reading the Torah to the people and he takes all day about it. And the Levites are standing around and it's says they gave the sense so that the people understood the reading. It's as though Ezra says, you know what we would call two or three verses and it's so dense that he has to pause. And then the Levites say now what he really meant was and But I love, I love that image and maybe we should encourage more of that kind of thing in church life.

A (38:52)

Yeah, we'll call it sermon Interpreters. We need. We need more of them. Well, that's all the time we have for today, but in our next episode we're going to cover the death of Judas, the concept of inerrancy and how to avoid being too heavenly minded to be of no earthly good. But before we go, we also want to remember we've got a great suite of bonus episodes for subscribers. We cover some great topical things. We go through the Bible. We're about to start a series on Ephesians and for the price of one bad McDonald's coffee. Coffee. You can get four extra episodes a month. So let me ask people, what would you rather have a bad McDonald's coffee or four extra episodes where Tom and I do a deep dive in some of these really cool topics. But otherwise it's goodbye from me, Mike

B (39:46)

Bird and goodbye from Tom Wright in Oxford.

A (39:50)

And we'll see you for the next episode of Ask nt Write Anything Foreign.

B (40:20)

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