Ask NT Wright Anything: S2E11 "Between Death and Resurrection—Where Was Jesus?"

Hosted by Mike Bird of Premier Unbelievable, this episode delves into profound theological questions surrounding Jesus' descent into hell, the biblical basis for Christian unity, the chronology of Jesus' baptism, and the salvation of non-messianic Jews. Scholar Tom Wright provides insightful explanations, drawing from scripture and historical context to address listeners' inquiries.

1. Understanding Jesus' Descent into Hell

Listener's Question:
Doreen White from Bicester, UK, asks about the apparent contradiction in the Creed stating that Jesus "descended into hell," while the Bible records Jesus telling the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." She is confused about how Jesus could be in both places.

Tom Wright's Explanation:
Tom Wright clarifies that the Creed's statement originated from early church traditions in the third and fourth centuries, which may have misinterpreted biblical passages. He references 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 1 Peter 4:6, suggesting that Jesus' descent was more about announcing God's judgment and the inauguration of the new creation rather than a literal journey to a place of torment.

"Paradise… is a designation of the interim place, the place of refreshment prior to the resurrection" (05:47).

Wright emphasizes that "hell" as depicted in medieval imagery was not the original intent of the biblical texts. Instead, Jesus' descent signifies His victory over death and the assurance of salvation for believers.

Mike Bird's Summary:
Mike Bird encapsulates Wright's point by stating:

"Jesus has experienced the full power of death and he's come out of it. And it turns out when he was death versus Jesus, Jesus won and he has defeated death and he will defeat death in all of us" (08:28).

2. The Biblical Basis for Ecumenism and Christian Unity

Listener's Question:
Michael Clark from Chelmsford, UK, inquires about the scriptural foundations for ecumenism—the effort to unify Christian denominations. He questions whether pursuing unity with diverse Christian groups is biblically supported.

Tom Wright's Insight:
Highlighting that the podcast coincided with the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, Wright shares his evolution in understanding ecumenism. He underscores Paul's emphasis on unity in his letters, illustrating how Paul consistently advocated for a cohesive church community transcending ethnic and social barriers.

"Ecumenism is not just a fad that some Christians might enjoy… it's something that we all ought to be working for and figuring out what is stopping that" (14:00).

Wright references Romans 15 and Revelation 7, demonstrating that unity among believers is a reflection of God's intent for creation. He argues that overcoming denominational divides aligns with the prophetic vision of diverse groups worshiping God together.

Mike Bird's Commentary:
Mike Bird praises Tom Wright's ability to foster ecumenical dialogue, recounting a significant inclusive event in Melbourne where various Christian denominations united under Wright’s leadership. He emphasizes the importance of shared scripture and faith over denominational rhetoric.

"We all ought to be working for and figuring out what is stopping that" (15:00).

3. Clarifying the Chronology of Jesus' Baptism in Luke

Listener's Question:
John Beaver from Helena, USA, seeks clarity on the sequence of events in Luke 3:19-22, questioning whether John the Baptist baptized Jesus despite Herod having imprisoned John before Jesus' baptism.

Tom Wright's Response:
Wright reassures John that the narrative structure in Luke employs literary techniques such as flashbacks, common in historical and novelistic writing. He explains that the mention of John’s imprisonment does not chronologically precede Jesus' baptism but rather provides context to the unfolding story.

"Many writers… will do flashbacks or flash forwards… to clue us into how the story then works out" (21:12).

Wright affirms that there is no implication that someone else baptized Jesus, maintaining that John the Baptist performed the baptism despite his imprisonment.

Mike Bird's Agreement:
Mike Bird concurs, noting that non-linear storytelling is a common narrative device.

"Yeah, that's definitely true. I know in my own writing it's not always done in chronological order" (23:09).

4. The Salvation of Non-Messianic Jews

Listener's Question:
Mike Jones from Kansas City, USA, asks whether non-messianic Jews are redeemed and destined for heaven, seeking the theological basis for this belief.

Tom Wright's Detailed Explanation:
Wright addresses the complexity of this question by distinguishing between "heaven" and the biblical concept of salvation. He clarifies that the New Testament speaks of a "new heavens and new earth," emphasizing God's intention to dwell with humanity rather than individuals ascending to heaven.

"The Bible talks about new heavens and new earth and not about people going up to God, but about God coming down to be with humans" (24:04).

He explores the idea that salvation is inclusive, rooted in recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. However, Wright acknowledges the historical tensions and anti-Semitic interpretations that have marred Christian-Jewish relations. He references Romans 11, where Paul underscores that God's promises to Israel remain intact, highlighting that salvation is available to all, including Jews who accept Jesus.

"There are no promises of the ultimate future for people who say Jesus is not, could not be God's Messiah" (29:59).

Mike Bird's Reflection:
Mike Bird reflects on Romans 11, emphasizing that Paul rejects the notion of Gentiles replacing Jews as God's people. He agrees with Wright's stance on the necessity of recognizing Jesus as the Messiah while also advocating for respectful and hopeful dialogue.

"And one thing you said in your Romans commentary… to say that there is no place for the Jews in the family of the Messiah is one of the most anti Jewish things you could possibly say" (30:00).

Conclusion

In this episode, Tom Wright adeptly navigates complex theological discussions, providing clarity on Jesus' descent, the imperative of Christian unity, the narrative structure of the Gospels, and the nuanced understanding of salvation concerning non-messianic Jews. Mike Bird complements Wright's insights with personal reflections and underscores the importance of these topics for contemporary faith practice.

Listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the interconnectedness of scripture, tradition, and modern interpretation, fostering a more informed and unified Christian community.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tom Wright on "Paradise":
  "Paradise… is a designation of the interim place, the place of refreshment prior to the resurrection."
  (05:47)

• Mike Bird on Jesus' Victory over Death:
  "Jesus has experienced the full power of death and he's come out of it. And it turns out when he was death versus Jesus, Jesus won and he has defeated death and he will defeat death in all of us."
  (08:28)

• Tom Wright on Ecumenism:
  "Ecumenism is not just a fad that some Christians might enjoy… it's something that we all ought to be working for and figuring out what is stopping that."
  (14:00)

• Tom Wright on Biblical Narrative Techniques:
  "Many writers… will do flashbacks or flash forwards… to clue us into how the story then works out."
  (21:12)

• Tom Wright on Salvation and Non-Messianic Jews:
  "There are no promises of the ultimate future for people who say Jesus is not, could not be God's Messiah."
  (29:59)

Timestamps Reference

• 05:47: Tom Wright discusses the concept of "paradise" in Luke 23.
• 08:28: Mike Bird summarizes Jesus' victory over death.
• 14:00: Tom Wright elaborates on the necessity of ecumenism.
• 21:12: Tom Wright explains narrative techniques in Luke's Gospel.
• 23:09: Mike Bird agrees on non-chronological storytelling.
• 24:04: Tom Wright on the biblical view of salvation and heaven.
• 29:59: Tom Wright discusses the salvation of non-messianic Jews.
• 30:00: Mike Bird reflects on anti-Jewish interpretations.

For more insightful discussions and to submit your questions, visit AskNTWright.com. Join Mike Bird and Tom Wright as they explore the depths of theology, scripture, and faith.