← Ask NT Wright Anything
Ask NT Wright Anything
S2E11 Between death and resurrection— where was Jesus? NT Wright explains
00:34:54
Loading summary
Transcript30 lines
- [00:01]
Justin Briley
Have you ever found yourself in a tough conversation about faith, unsure of what to say or how to say it? Maybe with a skeptic, a friend, or even a family member? We want to help. That's why we're giving you a free download of five Steps to Having Better Conversations. This powerful guide will equip you to navigate faith's discussions with confidence, wisdom and grace so that you can share your beliefs in a way that truly connects. Get your free copy now@premierinsight.org resources. That's PremierInsight.org resources. Don't miss out. Start having better, more meaningful conversations today.
- [00:39]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [01:10]
Mike Bird
This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going Cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.
- [01:41]
Justin Briley
The Ask nt Write Anything Podcast.
- [01:48]
Mike Bird
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ask nt Write Anything podcast. I'm the co host Mike Bird from Melbourne, Australia and I'm joined by I'm.
- [01:58]
Tom Wright
Tom Wright in Oxford in England and.
- [02:01]
Mike Bird
We are so glad you're joining us because we're going to try answer the questions you sent in about the Bible, Jesus, theology and the life of faith. And our first question for today comes from Doreen White from Bicester in the United Kingdom and she writes in the Creed we are told that Jesus descended into into hell. And yet the Bible tells us that Jesus told the thief, today you will be with me in paradise. And Doreen says she's confused. And Doreen, you'll be glad to know you are not the only one. A lot of people have said how can Jesus go to hell and go to paradise? Which one is it? Tom, I know you've already covered this topic many times before.
- [02:54]
Tom Wright
Well, I have and I haven't. Part of the problem here is that the Creed where it says he descended into Hell comes to us from a discussion and a tradition in the third and fourth centuries, which was based on, I think, a misinterpretation of some passages. In the first letter of Peter. In 1 Peter 3, 18 and 19, it says that the Messiah suffered for sins, the just, for the unjust, to bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, made alive by the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who didn't obey in the earlier days, the days of Noah. And then in chapter four, verse six, it says that the Gospel was preached also to the dead, so that when they're judged in the flesh like humans, they are then made alive by. By the Spirit of God. Those translations are flexible, shall we say? There's different ways of taking those passages. But it looks as though what First Peter is saying is something about the fact that when Jesus died, a kind of shockwave went through the whole of the cosmos, including Jesus himself, announcing to all those prior to him who were now awaiting the word of God's judgment. Jesus announcing that sin had been dealt with, that death was now overcome, that God's new creation had been launched. Now, some people think that this was in order to rescue people who had died before and still needed rescuing. Others think that it's simply going to tell those who are waiting that it's going to be okay, that God is now doing the new thing that they've been waiting for. Some think it was about Jesus going and announcing to wicked spirits or wicked former humans announcing their doom, telling them that their judgment had been pronounced, the sentence of death had been passed on them. And I'm not sure that from 1 Peter 3 and 4 we can tell which of those it is, or even if it's meant to be all of them, or some gesture in that direction. The odd thing is, pretty clearly this is something which for First Peter, so in the early church, was something that didn't need to be spelled out. He just says what he says in a verse or two. And it seems to be as though he's saying, as we all know, or as most of us have been taught or whatever. And it's one of the many passages in the New Testament where I wish somebody had said, please, would you give us some footnotes to help us see just where you're getting this from and what it means. But I don't think that means what the creed means or the writers of the creed meant when they say descended ad inforos into the hell place.
- [05:47]
Mike Bird
He descended into the lower depths, I.
- [05:49]
Tom Wright
Think into the lower depths. Part of our problem there is that our word hell comes to us replete with all sorts of medieval accretions, which it's quite possible that in the third and fourth century they weren't actually thinking of. You know, the word hell now means, oh, this place, which is there on the Sistine Chapel painting with demons torturing people and fiery flames and goodness knows what. And I don't think that was in the minds of the 3rd and 4th century framers of the creeds, and it certainly isn't in the mind of one Peter at that point. So when we put this together with the passage in Luke 23 where Jesus says to the brigand who is crucified next to him, today, you will be with me in paradise. Paradise, we know, is a designation of the interim place, the place of refreshment prior to the resurrection. Now, of course, from Luke 23, we know that Jesus isn't going to be there very long. He's going to be back on the third day, because Luke 24, he is raised from the dead. But it's a way of assuring the penitent thief, as we've often called him, that God will look after him and that he will be with Jesus. Like Paul says, my desire is to depart and be with the Messiah, which is far better. But we don't have good language for that. The word paradise is like a label that you get from earlier Jewish tradition or even Persian tradition, which is just stuck onto that. You'll be with me in paradise. It isn't a technical thing, which you could look up in a dictionary and say, paradise equals this and this and this and this. It's a way of saying, it'll be okay, I'll be there, and you'll be with me. And likewise, the language in First Peter isn't a way of saying we've got a precise map of the underworld and all its inhabitants and exactly what Jesus was saying to them. What we've got rather, is an assurance that after his death, Jesus announced to all those who are in, whether you call it the underworld or the waiting period or whatever, that God's judgment had been pronounced and that this now affected the whole world, them included. So I think once we cash out those two statements, though they may look as though they're opposite. In fact, they're both pointers into a dark and difficult place for which we don't have good language. But the main thing is Jesus has done it and we can trust him to be put, putting the whole world right. And if we Turn to him in faith. We can be part of that putting right achievement right now, already today, as he says.
- [08:28]
Mike Bird
Yeah. So, I mean, I like to sum it up as Jesus has experienced the full power of death and he's come out of it. And it turns out when he was death versus Jesus, Jesus won and he has defeated death and he will defeat death in all of us. So, I mean, that's. That's the way I like to put it. Great. Well, I mean, it is an interesting one. And I find people often get mistaken on the waiting place of the dead and the final pace of destruction. These places often get conflated in Christian imagination. But, yeah. Well, thank you, Doreen. That was a very good question. We've got another good one from Michael Clark in Chelmsford, United Kingdom. And he asked this, what scriptures point to the value, need and God's will for ecumenism? Now, ecumenism, for those who don't know, is the attempt to bring unity to the Christian churches. Is there any. Is there any scripture basis for this? I mean, Tom, I mean, is this something we should do, seeking unity with other Christians? Because some other Christians are a little bit weird. I don't know if I want to be unified with them.
- [09:41]
Tom Wright
Actually, ironically, we are recording this particular episode of this podcast in what is declared around the world as the week of Prayer for Christian Unity. And so it's very apposite we should be thinking about it now. When I was younger, ecumenism and the idea of Christian unity was like a sort of strange fad that some people thought was important, but that most people just retreated to their own churches. And occasionally they would go and share a service with the local Methodists or Baptists or whatever. But then they would come back home and sing their familiar hymns and think, well, that was a bit odd, but maybe we do it from time to time. Now, I want to say when I wrote my big book on Paul, which is ten or a dozen years ago now, I took it on a book tour around various places. And the question I was asked again and again was if Paul could come back now and see our modern Christian life, what would he find most surprising or shocking? And I used to say, without any doubt, the thing he would be most astonished and shocked at is not only that we are not united, but that we by and large care. Because for Paul, the unity of the church was something he wrote about in every letter he wrote. You know, Paul is famous for his doctrine of justification. Well, that's basically part of Romans and part of Galatians. But actually every letter, including Romans and Galatians, certainly the Corinthian correspondence, certainly the prison letters and the pastoral letters, and even the little letter to Philemon, it's about the coming together of Christians from different contexts. Philemon, it's about the master and the slave. Galatians, you've got neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor no male and female, et cetera, et cetera. And in Corinth you've got, let's not have these personality cults, let's not say I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, we're all one in the Messiah. And so the idea of being all one and that cutting across traditional boundary lines is woven into every letter that Paul wrote. And it's rooted in the basically Judean assumption, what today would be often called the Jewish assumption, that the one God, the Creator, has one purpose for the world. That purpose is instantiated somehow in the vocation of Israel from Abraham right on through. And of course it's one thing to allow it to collapse into different strands would make a nonsense of the whole thing. And of course the answer is that we have made a nonsense of it. For the last thousand years, the great traditions of east and West Christianity split apart largely because the Roman Empire was splitting apart with some based in Rome and some based in Constantinople, and that the Church developed in these different ways and nobody seemed really to know what to do about that. And then at the time of the Reformation, when the Church had become so it seemed to most people, hopelessly corrupt, the reformers said, we need to get back to the original vision of Christianity, Christianity. And tragically, the way that they did that often created more and more and more sects and subsects and so on. And this is now both a scandal and to some people, like a bad joke where, you know, you may recognize somebody as a Christian until you realize that they are part of this branch of that sect, whereas you're part of the next branch of that sect. And therefore you're supposed to hate each other. And this is tragic. It is absolutely tragic. In Revelation, chapter seven we have this vision of the Church, which is a large multitude from every nation and kindred and tribe and tongue standing before the throne, worshiping God together. That is not a vision for some ultimate future. That's a vision of what is actually supposed to be happening right here and now. And one of my favorite passages on this right now is in Romans 15 where Paul talks about the mutual welcome of people from different socio cultural traditions. He says welcome one another and the things which hold you apart, oh, we don't eat that stuff. We only eat vegetables or we don't drink wine, but so we can't have fellowship with you. Paul says these are secondary things and work at them within the single fellowship. Welcome one another. And he quotes from Isaiah chapter 11, which is a wonderful prophetic passage about the wolf lying down with the lamb and the leopard with the kid, et cetera, which already in some Jewish traditions was being taken as an image of the different warring nations coming together, a message which, my goodness, we need as much in the 21st century as ever. And Paul is seeing the coming together of the church across traditional boundaries, whether of ethnicity or social class or gender or whatever it is. The coming together of the church as the sign and symbol of God's putting the whole creation right in the end. That's why to say it again, we are called to be the small working model of new creation. And so ecumenism is not just a fad that some Christians might enjoy. Enjoy doing from time to time, or that we should have a few prayers now and then about. It's something that we all ought to be working for and figuring out what is stopping that. How can we address those issues and figuring out what differences are there between us that really do make a difference? If somebody said, oh, well, we believe in God, but we don't really believe in Jesus, we'd say, well, sorry, you've just crossed a red line. And then there are other things which also would be red lines? And what other things are there which are differences between us, but which shouldn't make a difference? Like the way that you celebrate the Lord's meal, the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist, the Mass, whatever you call it. And that's itself part of the problem. That ought not to be something that holds us apart. So, yes, scripture is full of signs of unity, the greatest of course, being John 17. This is what Jesus prayed for.
- [15:53]
Mike Bird
That's what I was going to say about Jesus prayer in John 17.
- [15:56]
Tom Wright
Jesus prayer in John 17. This is what Jesus prayed for on the night he was betrayed. He went to his death having just prayed that they may all be one. How dare we collude with any movement that says we should be more than one. It just doesn't make sense.
- [16:13]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I agree, Tom. I think unity is something we need to pursue. There's like 30,000 Protestant nominations. I mean, I remember moving to Scotland and I couldn't believe how many different types of Presbyterians they were. And I could barely tell a Doctor of difference between them and. But I have to say this, and I say this not to flatter you but to provide general background. The most ecumenical event I've ever been involved in was Tom's visit to Melbourne. Because we had Tom in Melbourne and everybody came and I mean everybody. We had the Catholic Church had people there, Hillsong in Sydney sent people. We had the Presbyterians, we had Evangelicals, we had Progressive Christians, we had the Methodists, we had the Baptists. It was the single most ecumenical act I have event I've ever been to in my life. I don't know what it's about you Tom, but you're able to attract, bring people together like, like no one. I mean the only person I think might be similar is perhaps someone like a John Stott or Billy Graham. But I think there's something to be said for when you've got an interest in scripture, living out the life of faith. Faith, not just trotting out the standard denominational rhetoric about those Bapos or the Presby's or the rosary rattlers. I mean what do you know, we all have our own sort of, you know, in house derogative terms but when you sit before people a grand vision of scripture and what it means to build the kingdom together, I think that that happens. And as John Wesley said, if your heart's the same as my heart, you can hold my hand and give me your hand, what we need. And I've, I've enjoyed holding Tom's hand for a long time.
- [17:59]
Tom Wright
It was very good. Thanks, Mike. I had quite forgotten just how ecumenical that Melbourne meeting was. But I do remember it was a very happy time.
- [18:07]
Mike Bird
Yeah, it was. I mean everyone. I mean I've never seen the Catholics, the Pentecostals and the Presbyterians come together to do anything, but there we all were in Melbourne listening to you talk about Paul, Resurrection and New Creation. Well, well, anyway, that's probably a great spot for us to take a break. But don't go away. We've got some more questions coming up about the Bible and the life of faith.
- [18:34]
Justin Briley
Have you ever wrestled with tough questions about faith? Or maybe you've got a friend who's skeptical about Christianity. That's exactly why we want to send you a powerful resource that I believe needs to be in the hand of every believer. Justin Briley's book unbelievable why after 10 years of talking with atheists, I'm Still a Christian. In this book, Justin reflects on 10 years of conversations with atheists, skeptics and believers alike and explains why he still finds Christianity the most compelling explanation for life, the universe, and everything in between. I know this book will strengthen your faith and equip you for meaningful conversations and for a limited time. This book is our special thank you to you for your gift. Gift to Premier Insight. Your support ensures that content like this and other shows and programs are available to bring faith filled conversations to a world that needs them. So I encourage you to give today by going to premierinsight.org give that's premierinsight.org give now on to today's show.
- [19:37]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Still getting around to that fix on your car. You got this on ebay you'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit. Doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers, ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that ebay Things People Love Eligible items only Exclusions apply.
- [20:11]
Mike Bird
Okay, we are back and we've got a question from John Beaver, which is about, you know, the chronology of the Bible and how do things you know all fit together? John is from Helena in the United States, and he asks, In Luke, chapter three, verses 19 to 22, we see that Herod has put John the Baptist in prison prior to statements regarding Jesus being baptized. Do you think this would imply that someone other than John the Baptist baptized Jesus? Or is it more likely to have been written thematically rather than chronologically? Or is this a solution to the problem of Jesus requesting from John that John baptized Jesus? And if that's the answer, then wouldn't that imply that someone other than John could have baptized Jesus, or that Jesus immersed or sprinkled himself while in the presence of John? Well, this sounds like a little bit of confusion about chronology related to John the Baptist and when and who baptized Jesus.
- [21:13]
Tom Wright
It could be read that way. But I want to reassure John Beaver that actually his confusion has led him off down a rabbit hole into somewhere where he really doesn't need to go. Because many, many, many writers, when they're telling historical stories or like many novelists, will do flashbacks or flash forwards in order just to clue us into how the story then works out. And it seems to me that Luke 3, 1922 is exactly doing that, that it first says that Herod the tetrarch had been accused by John the Baptist because of his strange marital affairs, and that Herod added this to all his other Follies and sins, that he put John in prison. And that doesn't mean that this happened before the events that are about to be described. Jesus, baptism, it needn't mean that at all. Again and again, if you read, whether ancient or modern history, or if you, as I say, read novels, plays, goodness knows what in this day and age, then you find that people can tell you something about, by the way, this is what was going to come out later on, or by the way, this is what had happened 20 years before. That's just a perfectly ordinary technique of writing. And it certainly doesn't mean that John the Baptist didn't in fact baptize Jesus. That would be a very strange conclusion, not warranted at all. But I think the point is worth stressing that people coming to the Bible thinking this is God's word, I must take it very, very seriously. They are right to take it seriously. But that doesn't mean that we should read things automatically as though it's a chronological sequence, as though what you've got is a transcript that somebody had a video cam at the time, would have seen this happen. Then this happened, then this happened. That's not how ordinary writers write, trust me.
- [23:09]
Mike Bird
Okay, yeah, that's definitely true. I know in my own writing it's not always done in chronological order.
- [23:14]
Tom Wright
And why should it be?
- [23:15]
Mike Bird
Yeah, exactly. Well, we've got another really good question here, Tom, from Mike Jones in Kansas City, usa, and he asked this, are non messianic Jews redeemed, saved and in short, destined for heaven? If yes, on what basis? Now I think we've got to point out a few things, that a non messianic Jew is just, just a Jewish person. So a person who is either religiously or by heritage identifies as Jewish. And the question is, are they going to heaven? Now the fact that he's asked about going to heaven, I know you've got a lot of strong thoughts on that automatically, Tom, I can see the tension building on your face, but yeah, this is a good question. I mean, do Jewish people need Jesus or are they saved under the old covenant?
- [24:04]
Tom Wright
Yeah, I remember years ago there was a fuss in London because there was a movement called Jews for Jesus. And that was a movement of Jewish people, people who call themselves Messianic Jews, who were seeking to tell their Jewish brothers and sisters, their fellow ethnic Jews about Jesus and that Jesus was the one who the prophets had foretold, et cetera, and they needed to come and meet this Jesus for themselves. And this movement, Jews for Jesus, put up, advertise in the London Underground. And the advertisement read Jews for Jesus. Why not? After all, Jesus is for Jews. And even though that had been put up by absolutely Jewish groups, Jewish groups who were not Christians felt this to be very threatening and even anti Jewish or anti Semitic. And so they complained bitterly to the London Underground authorities and the advertisements came down. But I remember at the time thinking this is hugely ironic because either you say that Jesus is for Jewish people, or you seem to be saying that Jewish people are not wanted in anything to do with the Christian culture. And there have been many, many would be Christian movements that have kept the Jews out and that have said no, no, no, you were some dark race that we've now done away with. And that of course led to terrible, terrible hor, not only in the 20th century but in many earlier centuries. And we've now, I think, repented of that. Although there are still of course enormous issues around socio culturally about how Western culture views Jewish people and how Jewish people view Western culture. That's a whole other thing. But yes, the question was phrased in terms of are they going to heaven? And I really want to stress one more time that the Bible never uses the language of going to heaven when it's talking about ultimate salvation. The word heaven is not used in the New Testament to denote the place or state of God's people in their final future. The Bible talks about new heavens and new earth and not about people going up to God, but about God coming down to be with humans. And so the question is, the question then can be rephrased. Are Jewish people who don't believe in Jesus going to be part of the great company of all nations and kindreds and tribes and tongues when God does his new creation? And this then becomes part of the question, do you have to believe in Jesus in order to be part of that new creation? Now the question of believing in Jesus is itself complicated. There are lots of people who do more or less believe in Jesus, but. But you can't always tell. We can't always tell. Maybe they can't always tell whether they're actually sincere, whether they're really on board or not. This is something that ultimately only God knows. From time to time in these podcasts we get the question of universalism coming up and there's a sense in which we might all like to be universalists because we don't want to say, oh, those people are out and those people are going to hell and whatever. That doesn't sound like a good way and doesn't sound like an Early Christian way to talk about people who are outside. However. However, the word that is used so frequently in the New Testament for Jesus is the word Christos, which means again and again. It's not a proper name. It means Messiah, the anointed One. And when we look and see what the early Christians meant by it, they go back to Psalm 2, they go back to Isaiah 11, they go back to Psalm 72, they go back to the great messianic promises about the star that would arise, about all sorts of things that God was going to do through an anointed One who would come and liberate his people. And the climax of the New Testament in the death and resurrection of Jesus is described precisely Messianically. He has fulfilled the Messianic task. This is what God promised his people that he would do. So as John says, he came to his own. His own didn't receive him, but to as many as received him. To them he gave the right to become technotheu children of God, which goes all the way back to Exodus. Israel is my son, my firstborn born. Let my people go. So the question then, which would have made a great deal of sense in the first two centuries when there were different Jewish groups saying we're the real thing and you lot are out and we are the real ones because we're following this person called Menachem or this person called Bar Kokhbar or whatever it is, each of those Jewish groups, like the Dead Sea Scrolls people, was saying, we're the ones that God is now doing business with and unless you join us, you're not part of the show. And so the early Christians were bound to say, we have in this man Jesus seen Israel's Messiah. He is God's anointed. This is where God is doing new creation. And let's put it like this, there are no promises of the ultimate future for people who say Jesus is not, could not be God's Messiah. So if that's what you mean by a non messianic Jew, then it seems to me they are saying for all sorts of perhaps good reasons and understandable reasons, we do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was or is Israel's Messiah. To which the church I think should respond with a sense of tragedy that he came to his own and his own didn't receive him. But with Paul In Romans 11, we would say, let's try one more time to pray that God will open people's eyes to realize who Jesus was and is.
- [30:00]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing way to put It, Tom. And Romans 11 covers this a lot. I mean, I like Romans 11 because Paul confronts the Gentile Christians in Rome and he says, you know, don't say that their branch was broken off so you could be grafted in. So Paul completely rules out supersessionism in a hard sense. That the church, the Gentiles, replace the Jews as God's people. That's off the table. But he also says Israel will experience God's mercy, mercy if they do not persist in unbelief. And he does add that condition if they do not persist in unbelief. And you know, when I have a, I meet a, a Jewish person, I sometimes say a bit of tongue in cheek, you know, oh, that's amazing that you're Jewish. And they go, why? Well, I believe in your Messiah. And you know, and I have to say one of the things I enjoy about this program, Tom, is I get to remind you of your own works even when you've forgotten about them. This is the bit I enjoy the most most. And one thing you said in your Romans commentary many years ago about, about this topic is to say that there is no place for the Jews in the family of the Messiah is one of the most anti Jewish things you could possibly say. To say that the, the Jews don't need Jesus or they don't want it or there's no room for them in, in, in the Messianic family is probably the most anti Jewish thing you could say.
- [31:23]
Tom Wright
It's, it's always nice when I find that I agree with something that I wrote 20 years ago. Still do.
- [31:29]
Mike Bird
Oh, that's good. And you still agree with it. You still agree with it. Well, that's good to hear. Well, that is all we have time for this week. We hope you've enjoyed the program. If you're listening, please, you know, leave us a review on whatever app you're listening on Spotify or Apple or whatever it is. We'd love to get a rating and a review from you. Please share the program with some of your friends if you think they'll be interested in. And above all, remember, send us your questions. Go to askantyright.com Send us the questions that have been bugging you, the ones that you've been too afraid to ask because we would love to hear from you. I'm Mike Bird and I've been joined.
- [32:10]
Tom Wright
By Tom Wright in Oxford.
- [32:12]
Mike Bird
And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of Ask N.T. wright. Anything it.