Ask NT Wright Anything: Episode S2E12 Title: Were Adam and Eve Doomed to Sin, or Did Their Sins Doom Humanity? NT Wright and Mike Bird on Questions of Sin and Universalism
Host: Mike Bird
Guest: Tom Wright
Release Date: March 30, 2025

Introduction

In episode S2E12 of the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast, host Mike Bird engages in a profound dialogue with theologian Tom Wright, delving into intricate questions surrounding sin, universalism, and the theological implications of Adam and Eve's actions. This episode addresses listener inquiries that challenge traditional interpretations and explore the depths of Christian theology in the modern context.

1. Sin and Universalism: The Fate of Adam and Eve and Humanity

Listener: Isla Peterson, Edmonton, Alberta
Timestamp: 02:00 - 10:57

Isla's Question: Isla grapples with two extremes in Christian theology: the belief that only some are saved ("sheep and goats") and universalism—the idea that God loves and saves everyone. She expresses discomfort with both views and proposes a personal approach of cultivating the "better parts" within herself, leaving the outcome of others' salvation to God.

Key Discussion Points:

• Tom Wright's Perspective:

  • Critique of Extremes: Tom acknowledges the problems with both selective salvation and universalism. He emphasizes the importance of viewing all individuals as made in God's image, deserving respect and kindness, without presuming their ultimate fate.

    “...there are people who have been deeply bruised by things that the church or people in the church have done... but actually when you get to know them and talk to them, you realize there is a real faith there.”
    — Tom Wright [04:15]

  • Role of Christians: Christians should focus on their responsibilities to interpret scripture accurately and center their faith on Jesus, rather than prematurely judging others' salvation.

    “You’ve got to treat everyone with all respect and kindness... it's not our business. It's God's business.”
    — Tom Wright [06:05]

  • Biblical Interpretation: Tom references 1 Corinthians 3 and the concept of purification at death, aligning with the idea that bodily death is the moment when sin is purged, allowing the Holy Spirit to flourish.

    “...bodily death deals with that, according to Paul in Romans 6.”
    — Tom Wright [08:20]

• Mike Bird's Insights:

  • Emphasizes the importance of personal salvation through Christ and the necessity of individual introspection over judging others.

    “We know for certain we meet that mercy at the cross of Christ... the Lord will have mercy upon whom he chooses to have mercy.”
    — Mike Bird [10:00]

Conclusion on Sin and Universalism: Tom and Mike advocate for a balanced approach that avoids the pitfalls of both selective salvation and universalism. They stress personal responsibility in faith and leave the ultimate judgment to God, encouraging Christians to live out their beliefs with humility and compassion.

2. The Book of Revelation: Comprehension and Relevance in the New Creation

Listener: John Schlicher, Saginaw, USA
Timestamp: 12:00 - 17:10

John's Question: John inquires whether the rich apocalyptic imagery of the Book of Revelation will retain its meaning once the prophecies are fulfilled. He wonders if humans will still comprehend these symbols or if they will become irrelevant in the new creation.

Key Discussion Points:

• Tom Wright's Perspective:

  • Imagery Pointing Forward: Tom suggests that Revelation's imagery serves as a forward-looking narrative, intended to be fully understood in the context of the new creation.

    “Imagery pointing forwards... when the new heavens and new earth finally arrive, there will be a moment like that...”
    — Tom Wright [14:40]

  • Fulfillment and Understanding: He anticipates that the fulfillment of prophecies will provide deeper understanding and appreciation of the biblical texts.

    “...the texts will be disregarded. We will rather see them as having gloriously come true.”
    — Tom Wright [16:50]

  • Present Heavenly Realm: Tom clarifies that Revelation is not solely about the future but also reflects the current heavenly dynamics and their impact on the earthly realm.

    “A great deal of it is about what's going on in the heavenly realm right now and the way it impinges on the earthly realm...”
    — Tom Wright [15:30]

• Mike Bird's Insights:

  • Reflects on the hope of continuous engagement with biblical studies in the new creation, expressing a desire to study Revelation alongside its prophet, John of Patmos.

    “I actually want to do a study of the Book of Revelation with John of Patmos... I think we’ll be doing more than just listening to organ music in the new heavens and the new Earth.”
    — Mike Bird [13:31]

Conclusion on Revelation: The discussion underscores that Revelation's prophetic and symbolic language will maintain its significance and be comprehended in the new creation. The imagery will continue to resonate, offering deeper insights into the fulfillment of God's plan.

3. Original Sin vs. Sinful Nature: The Enigma of Adam and Eve's Fall

Listener: Kevin Van Dyke, United States
Timestamp: 17:21 - 26:13

Kevin's Question: Kevin is puzzled by the concept of original sin versus the sinful nature. He asks how Adam and Eve could commit sin if they didn't possess a sinful nature beforehand. What was the pivotal aspect of their actions in the Garden of Eden?

Key Discussion Points:

• Tom Wright's Perspective:

  • Beyond 'Sinful Nature': Tom cautions against treating "sinful nature" as a tangible thing, advocating for understanding it through actions and responsibilities rather than as an internal predisposition.

    “Be careful with words like nature... better interpreted in terms of verbs, that we tend to think, we tend to do this, we tend to do that.”
    — Tom Wright [19:15]

  • Human Responsibility: Emphasizes that Genesis portrays humans at the intersection of heaven and earth, tasked with stewardship and conscious worship, making them accountable for their choices.

    “Humans are called to be responsible image bearers... the possibility of saying, no, I'm not going to worship, I'm not going to be a steward...”
    — Tom Wright [21:00]

  • Nature of the Fall: Tom interprets the fall as a deliberate choice by Adam and Eve to deviate from their divine responsibilities, rather than the onset of an innate sinful nature.

    “...they decided that they'll do it in their own way and for their own ends.”
    — Tom Wright [25:00]

• Mike Bird's Insights:

  • Relates the concept to personal experiences of observing inherent moral behaviors in children, suggesting that humans possess intrinsic tendencies towards both justice and wrongdoing.

    “They just did it automatically... we just live in a fallen world that needs the redemption of Christ.”
    — Mike Bird [23:40]

Conclusion on Original Sin: Tom and Mike explore the narrative of Genesis not as the introduction of a sinful nature but as an illustration of human free will and responsibility. The fall of Adam and Eve signifies the profound choice to turn away from divine stewardship, setting the stage for humanity's inherent struggle with sin.

4. Navigating a Christian Upbringing Within a Mormon Community

Listener: Mark Peterson, Salt Lake City, USA
Timestamp: 26:13 - 34:13

Mark's Question: Mark and his wife, former members of the LDS (Mormon) Church, seek advice on raising their five-year-old son in a predominantly Mormon community while striving for a mainstream Christian upbringing. They are torn between social integration through the Mormon church and their desire to align their son's faith with traditional Christianity.

Key Discussion Points:

• Tom Wright's Perspective:

  • Understanding Mormonism: Tom admits limited knowledge of the LDS Church but acknowledges the complexity of balancing mainstream Christian beliefs with social pressures in a heavily Mormon environment.

    “I found it quite strange... how to some they’re on board with what you’re doing, and to others they’re back into a world with different teachings.”
    — Tom Wright [28:30]

  • Practical Advice: Suggests maintaining a strong Christian foundation at home through Bible reading and seeking a local mainstream church community that can provide spiritual and social support.

    “Find a church where you can become a regular member... read the Bible together and discuss it with your son.”
    — Tom Wright [32:00]

  • Resources: Recommends utilizing children's Bibles as anchors for faith education and encourages involvement in a worshipping family environment to reinforce mainstream Christian values.

    “Read it and reread it and discuss it with them... that would be a steadfast anchor.”
    — Tom Wright [30:45]

• Mike Bird's Insights:

  • Emphasizes the importance of finding a supportive church community that understands the challenges of transitioning from Mormonism to mainstream Christianity.

    “Find a church where they understand Mormonism and Christianity... people in your position who are coming out of Mormonism...”
    — Mike Bird [33:00]

Conclusion on Christian Upbringing: Tom and Mike offer compassionate guidance to Mark, highlighting the necessity of establishing a strong Christian environment at home while navigating the social dynamics of a Mormon-dominated community. They advocate for proactive engagement with mainstream churches and the use of accessible resources like children's Bibles to foster a traditional Christian upbringing.

Final Thoughts

In this episode, Mike Bird and Tom Wright navigate complex theological questions with clarity and empathy. From dissecting concepts of sin and universalism to addressing practical challenges in faith communities, the conversation underscores the importance of personal responsibility, compassionate understanding, and steadfast commitment to Christian principles in the face of diverse interpretations and societal pressures.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own faith journeys, engage deeply with scripture, and seek supportive communities that uphold the teachings of Jesus while embracing the diversity of human experience.

Notable Quotes:

• “You’ve got to treat everyone with all respect and kindness... it's not our business. It's God's business.”
  — Tom Wright [06:05]

• “Imagery pointing forwards... when the new heavens and new earth finally arrive, there will be a moment like that...”
  — Tom Wright [14:40]

• “Humans are called to be responsible image bearers... the possibility of saying, no, I'm not going to worship, I'm not going to be a steward...”
  — Tom Wright [21:00]

• “Find a church where you can become a regular member... read the Bible together and discuss it with your son.”
  — Tom Wright [32:00]

This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of episode S2E12, providing a comprehensive overview of the discussions on sin, universalism, and the nuances of Christian upbringing within diverse communities. For those seeking deeper theological insights and practical guidance, this episode serves as a valuable resource.