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Ask NT Wright Anything
S2E12 Were Adam and Eve doomed to sin, or did their sins doom humanity? NT Wright and Mike Bird on questions of sin and universalism
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- [00:00]
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Mike Bird
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Mike Bird
The Ask nt Write Anything Podcast hello and welcome to the Ask nt Write Anything podcast. I'm Mike Bird from Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia. I'm the co host of this program and and I'm joined by I'm Tom.
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Tom Wright
Wright in Oxford in England and we.
- [02:01]
Mike Bird
Are so glad that you've joined us because this is the program where we strive to answer your questions. Your questions about faith, spirituality, the Bible and what it means to follow Jesus in the 21st century. And Tom, as always, our listeners have sent us some great questions. They do not disappoint. And our first question comes from Isla Peterson in Edmonton, Alberta, in Canada. Now I've been there. I've been there in winter where it was minus 20. I mean, you've spent time in Canada as well. Tom, you know what we're talking about. Here's the question that Isla has for us. She says, I've met people who believe in a some of us are saved and others are not approach and some who believe that God loves and saves everyone. I'm not completely comfortable with either of those extremes, especially when the former invariably count themselves among the good guys. Would I be too far off the mark to take the sheep and the goats or wheat and tares metaphors and just apply them to myself, saying, lord, help the better parts of me become stronger. And when the time comes, separate the bad parts of me, burn them, destroy them completely. And finally, I don't want them and everyone else is. Fate is none of my business to decide, but I should treat everyone with all respect and kindness, assuming that when the bad is finally refined out of us, some people will have a lot left to work with and some not so much. I think that's a very good question, Tom. What are your thoughts?
- [03:43]
Tom Wright
Well, it is a good question and it takes us into some interesting bits, bits and pieces of biblical interpretation, as I'm sure Isla realizes. And yes, I too have been to Edmonton and it was pretty cold when I was there. I remember it well. I think the question about some people say, oh, there's sheep and goats and it's either the one or the other, and others say universalism. Yeah, that is both of those are problematic and I fully agree with either. In fact, I agree with a lot of Eila's approach here, and I have never been a universalist, but I feel, as it were, the imperative to universalism. That is to say, when I walk down the street and I see all the people coming and going, I don't want to say of any of them, oh, these people are obviously lost. These people don't care. They never come to church, they don't believe in Jesus, they don't say their prayers. So they're out of here. They're going to hell. As a human being, I cannot, and I think as a Christian, I shouldn't say that. I think I ought to say these are people who are made in God's image, Godly loves them, God wants the best for them, and I should be holding them in prayer and who knows the state of their hearts? And also I do want to say that there are many people, and I've met many of them who have been deeply bruised by things that the church or people in the church have done or said or whatever, who therefore think they cannot possibly align themselves with Christian faith. And they don't want to go anywhere near that church building. But actually, when you get to know them and talk to them, or more importantly, listen to them, you realize there is a real faith there. And I don't want to say somebody with that real faith, well, just because they don't tick These boxes, therefore, obviously they're out of it. In other words, you're absolutely right, Isla. This is not our business. It's God's business. At the same time, it is our job as interpreters of scripture, especially those of us who are given authority to teach in churches to make it quite clear that Jesus is the center of God's whole world, God's plan for the world, etc. And that anyone who looks at Jesus and says, I don't need him, is risking the possibility that if there is a God who is revealed in Jesus, they're turning finally away from this God. And that there is nothing in the Bible which says that after death God will go on reminding them about Jesus until eventually they say, oh, all right then. I mean, some universalists have tried to say that, that in the eons and eons of after our death, God will continually present the gospel to us until eventually we all give in and say, yeah, okay, there's nothing in the Bible to suggest that. In fact, rather there is the strong emphasis that God has revealed himself, that Jesus is God's last word to the world. This is the thing that really matters. John, chapter one, Hebrews, chapter one, et cetera. This is how God has spoken. Jesus says to the disciples, he who has seen me has seen the Father. So that if you say, well, yeah, we've seen this character Jesus in the Gospels, but we're not convinced yet, and we're put off by the behavior of some of the Christians we've known, so we're just going to ignore it. Well, the answer to that would be, watch out. I'm not going to say you are heading for destruction, but I am going to say there are no promises of ultimate new creation for somebody who puts themselves in that position. At the same time, the idea which either has, which I think comes actually out of 1 Corinthians 3, is quite important that the very best of us as we approach our own death, should feel, I believe, do feel that there are things still in me which need to be sorted out. There are things which I am still ashamed of, or I wish I didn't keep doing this or thinking that or whatever it may be, and I will pray God, please have mercy and cleanse me from those. Because if you are to come and live in me and to live in me and with me, and me with you, for all of your future, then I really don't need those bits. Now, if I really mean that, then I think God will begin that process in the present life. But Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, when he's talking about people who are building up the church, this is teachers within the church that some people are building with gold and silver and precious stones, and others are building with wood and hay and stubble. And one day the fire will come and we'll discover who was building with gold and silver and precious stones, and who was building with wood and hay and stubble. Now, Paul is there talking about Christian teachers, not about Christians in general, but I think we can cautiously apply it to ourselves, which is what Isla does here. And this is actually what the late Pope Joseph Ratzinger does in his book on eschatology, where he talks about purgatory not as an ongoing process, as much Catholic tradition used to say, but rather as a flash, a moment when suddenly everything that is not of God is purged away. Now, in the Bible, it is death itself that does that. Paul says the one who has died is freed from sin. And the word he uses for freed is the same word as justified, that all that is still wrong with us. Actually bodily death deals with that, according to Paul in Romans 6. And then what is left is that which the Holy Spirit has created in us so that that bond between ourselves and the Spirit, where we are one Spirit with Him. That is, so to speak, what is left, or rather what can then flourish and thrive after all that has been messed up has been stripped away with the awesome and awful process of bodily death. So that, yes, no doubt, when we come to our death, some people will have a lot, as you say, to work with, and some not so much. But I want to stress there are many, many people in the world who have had a terrible life, who have had, through no fault of their own, horrible things to put up with, including things to put up with from people in the church. And if they are therefore bitter and angry and cross with God and so on, I don't think God's going to hold it against them. I think God will hold it against the people who put them into that frame of and likewise those who, like myself, have had a relatively easy life and much less trouble and hassle than many, many people have had to put up with. The Bible says much is expected of those to whom much is given, and I take that very seriously. C.S. lewis says somewhere, when we're thinking about universalism and thinking about whether God will ultimately be merciful to this person or that person, he says, there is one person in particular about whom I ought not to feel too optimistic, and that is myself. In other words, I can't Just say, oh, well, God will, you know, like, Voltaire, Dieu pas donor CES en metier. God will forgive. That's his job. Rather I ought to say, lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. Now, where do we go from there?
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Mike Bird
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I've always thought of it in terms of, you know, there is a wideness in God's mercy, but we know for certain we meet that mercy at the cross of Christ. That's the place where we. We don't. We definitely do meet the mercy of God. Apart from that, the Lord will have mercy upon whom he chooses to have mercy. That's. That's always been the way, you know, I've taken it and. And just, you know, there's a lot of exhortations in the Bible to watch yourself, to not focus so much on. On watching others becoming, you know, as we would say, Pharisaic about it. But, you know, to what, to watch your life and your doctrine closely because you will save yourself and your hearers. That was one of the first instructions I was given as a young Christian, and that stayed with me ever since.
- [11:47]
Tom Wright
Yeah, no, I remember a good dear friend of mine who I've known all my life, who's a fine Christian leader, saying that, that line at the end of Psalm 95, which in the Anglican Old Book of Common Prayer, we would say day by day, certainly Sunday by Sunday, about the warning about, therefore I swore that they will never enter my rest. He said, that's always in the back of my mind that actually if you harden your. There is this warning, you may never enter my rest. And so he said, it's not something you get paranoid about, but it's just a way of saying, just don't take these things lightly. Don't assume that you can just sail off and go your own way.
- [12:27]
Mike Bird
Exactly, exactly. Well, we're grateful for that question. We have another question. This is now moving towards the Book of Revelation. This is from John Schlicher from Saginaw, usa, and he says this, in Revelation, there is a lot of imagery regarding the next coming of Christ When Jesus returns, will humans comprehend that imagery or will the text be disregarded since the prophecy will have come true? Since the Bible points to Jesus when he returns, will it still be relevant? I mean, this is a good question. Will there be Bible studies in the new creation? I'll be honest with you, Tom. I'm hoping the answer is yes. I actually want to do a study of the Book of Revelation with John of Patmos. I Want to study Romans with Paul. I want to have some very serious conversations with Augustine about a lot of things that he got wrong that had some very bad consequences. I hope there is a seminary or a divinity school in the new creation.
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Tom Wright
Yeah, I share that sort of impulse, though. I'm sure that like a lot of impulses about what we hope for, it's the sort of thing which will be, as C.S. eliot says, altered in fulfillment, that it will look very different when we're there. In fact, there's a line in one of the commentaries on Revelation which somebody has a fantasy about all the people who've done commentaries on Revelation going to heaven now using that old language. And then somebody else who's done a commentary on Revelation arrives at the pearly gates and is met by this great company of previous commentators. And one of them says, you did one too. You will find things very different up here. Now, granted that the imagery I don't think is very helpful because I don't think Revelation is about going to heaven. It's about the present heavenly life and the future heaven and earth life. But I think the crucial thing here is about imagery pointing forwards. And I go back, as I've said before, to Jesus on the road to emmaus in Luke 24, and the disciples who he was talking to knew their Bibles reasonably well and they were looking for the consolation of Israel. They knew that God had promised that he would would save his people one day, and they have been confronted with the crucified would be Messiah. So they say, well, he obviously wasn't it. And then Jesus says, foolish ones and slow of heart. And he goes back through the Scriptures and he interprets to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. And it seems to me that when the new heavens and new earth finally arrive, there will be a moment like that that we will say to ourselves and Jesus may say to us, of course it had to be like this, didn't you realize? Foolish ones and slow of heart to perceive. In other words, there will be a fulfillment which will take all sorts of bits and pieces of the imagery and the stories and all the things that we have known and some of the things we puzzled about in the Bible, and it will all make a whole new sense. And I agree that then it will be wonderful as part of the joy of the new creat to go back and celebrate everything from Genesis to Revelation and all that's in there, the intricacy of it. Now, from one point of view, and I take John Schlicker's point that if the Bible is pointing to Jesus, then if we've got Jesus, why would we need the Bible? And the answer is, well, there is a sense in which we wouldn't. But there's a sense in which in order fully to understand and celebrate and appreciate all that Jesus has been and is and will be, then again and again, the Psalms will help us, Genesis will help us, Isaiah will help us, John's Gospel will help us. The whole thing will be part of our overall kit. So I don't think the texts will be disregarded. We will rather see them as having gloriously come true. And that will be part of, I think, of the glory of the new creation. At the same time, when John says in Revelation, there's lots of imagery about the next coming of Jesus, well, there is some. And yes, Revelation does end up with amen, come, Lord Jesus. That's certainly the horizon. But an awful lot of the book of Revelation is about what's going on in the heavenly realm right now and the way it impinges on the earthly realm right now. There are many puzzles about Revelation, but it isn't all about some ultimate future. A great deal of it is the heavenly dimension of what is currently going on. And from there, there are all sorts of other questions, of course, which would take us much longer.
- [17:11]
Mike Bird
Oh, that's indeed. Well, I mean, it's. I guess a lot of us, we just don't know, you know, I think we'll be doing more than just listening to organ music in the new heavens and the new Earth. I think there'll be a lot.
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Tom Wright
You want some guitars as well, I think.
- [17:23]
Mike Bird
Want some. Want some guitars? Yeah, I agree, I agree. And maybe some good Vegemite sandwiches. You know, got to keep the Aussies happy there as well. Well, that's. That's a great point for us to take a break, but to our listeners, don't go too far. We've still got some questions on Adam and Eve and Mormonism soon to come after the break, and we are back at the Ask NT Write Anything podcast, answering all your questions about the Bible, faith and what it means to follow Jesus today. And we have a good little question, a bit of a doozy of one from Kevin Van Dyke from the United States. And he asked this. He says, hi. One concept I have a little trouble understanding is our sinful nature and the connection to Adam and Eve. The way I've always heard it is that the sin committed by Adam and Eve in the garden represents the fall of man into a sinful nature. But how did they sin if they didn't already have it in them? Yes, they were tempted into it, but that's the case with a lot of sinning that is chalked up to our sinful nature. What exactly is so momentous about what happened in the garden? Thanks. If I read this question from Kevin correctly, it's like, what came first, the sin or the sinful nature? How could they sin if they didn't have a sinful nature? So it's a bit like a chicken and an egg question. Tom, you're an avid reader of Genesis, and you had a lot of thoughts on Adam and Eve and the Fall. What's your take on this?
- [19:07]
Tom Wright
I was thinking chicken and egg when you were reading it before, and there was a cartoon in one of the magazines recently with a chicken looking at an egg and saying, well, we're both here now, so let's not argue about it. And maybe that's. Maybe. Maybe that's the right answer. I'm always worried when people bring in a word like nature, as though we know that there is a thing, a nature, as though that's part of our internal kit, as it were. Well, I have this sinful nature. Now. There are places, particularly in Paul, where he talks about the flesh, the sarx, and people sometimes translate that as the sinful human nature or the fleshly nature. But we can easily turn that nature into a thing as though it's actually something that a psychologist would be able to discern or with a brain scan or something. And I think we should beware because actually abstract nouns like that are better interpreted in terms of verbs, that we tend to think, we tend to do this, we tend to do that. And part of the problem here is that I think in Genesis we have a picture of human beings as standing at this dangerous overlap of heaven and earth, that God creates humans in his own image, which is a dangerous and high vocation with many potentials for getting it wrong, to put it mildly. And that when God is doing this, what he wants is to reflect his own love and stewardship and ordering of society wisely into his world through his humans. That's part of the image. And to reflect the praises of the world, to articulate the praises which arise from the animals and the trees and the flowers and so on, to reflect and articulate those praises before God. Humans are called to stand in that dangerous overlap place that's being in the image, but that demands a conscious worship and a conscious stewardship. And at any point, the fact that that's who humans are Called to be means that we have a responsibility. And it's not as though, oh, there is a bit of a N which has gone wrong here. It's a responsibility which can then be avoided or people can say, no, I don't want to do that, actually, I'm not going to do that. And the real question then is, what's this stuff with the snake in chapter three? Where did the snake come from? And there are all sorts of theories about a pre cosmic fall and so on. Interesting. In C.S. lewis's children's stories, the Narnia Chronicles, in the Magician's Nephew, there is an earlier world before Narnia and an evil force within that world which then somehow escapes and comes into Narnia. So that before Narnia is even really fully formed, an evil has already arrived in it. I think Lewis is saying that that's actually the only way we can finally understand what's going on. So there are many, many mysteries here and I'm not pretending that I can unravel them all, but I would beware of saying, oh, it's a sinful nature. And therefore either it was or it came in after. I think humans were called to be responsible image bearers and that every moment of that responsibility, this is what the word responsibility means, means that there is the possibility of saying, no, I'm not going to worship, I'm not going to be a steward, I'm not going to do this. And so what happened in the garden, I take it this is a glorious image about God's good creation and about the selection of one human pair to bring God's purposes of new creation to birth in his world while looking after the creation and taking it forward. And about this pair of humans deciding that they'll do it in their own way and for their own ends. Thank you very much. I don't know that I can say much more than that, but I think to go the route of saying was it this sort of nature or that sort of nature probably isn't going to help us get inside the story any further.
- [23:32]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I mean we do tend to want to know the how, how did it all begin? How did it all go wrong? And we know a little bit we've got the, the narrative there in Genesis, but even then that's, it's a deeply symbolic world. You know, you've got the, the idea of human beings as, you know, image bearers of God, Eden, almost as like a proto temple and, and, and everything like that. But we know, irrespective of what happened Human beings, things are separated from God, from the glory of God, and they have a disposition to sin. Now Tom, you and I both have four children and, and one thing I learned as an early parent is I did not have to teach my children how to lie. They just, they learned it like naturals. They learned how to blame their siblings. I didn't actually, they didn't learn it. They just did it automatically. Now I don't know whether that, that's in the genes. That's them. They all became their own Adam and Eve themselves. But yeah, I think we do have this propensity to do wrong, to be selfish and whatever the origins are, we just live in a fallen world that needs the redemption of Christ.
- [24:42]
Tom Wright
Yeah, I remember ages ago, a family, I think distant relations, second cousins or something like this, who they nicknamed one of their children Os because he was such an obvious example of original sin. And so I think all of us with children and, and all of us with parents too, we should know this equally. CS Lewis's point is valid. You do not have to teach children about justice in the playground. 4 year olds playing with each other and somebody grabs somebody else's toy and the answer will be that's not fair. Now they haven't been to university and studied a course in moral philosophy. They just know that's not fair. And so just as we are inbuilt sinners, we are inbuilt justice seekers, especially in our own case. Of course that can easily become selfish and corrupted, but it's there. And so right from the beginning, it's as though these impulses are there and we've got to deal with them. And Genesis is a way of saying, let's put that in this glorious Technicolor tableau and then just live with that. And then see, this is part of the point. See how the rest of the story, from Noah and Abraham right the way on through, resolves not only the problems which are left to us by Genesis 1, 2 and 3, but even the original scene itself. We can understand it better in the light of where we are finally going.
- [26:14]
Mike Bird
Well, Tom, our next question I think is very unique. I think this could be one of the most unique questions we've had in the history of the show. It comes from Mark Peterson who is in Salt Lake City usa and he asked this. He says, hi Tom and Mike. My wife and I were both raised in the lds, the Mormon Church, including serving two year missions for the church in Eastern Europe. We left the church in 2019 due to a combination of social and theological issues. Although for me the theological issues and diversions from mainstream Christianity were the primary factors. Although I have not yet found a new spiritual home, I tried to attend a nearby Anglican or Eastern Orthodox church. Church possible. My wife has recently decided to start taking our five year old son to the Mormon church to introduce him to neighbors since we do live in a heavily Mormon area. My real question for both of you is how you would go about cultivating a more mainstream Christian upbringing for my son while I am still trying to find a more traditional community. What resources or recommendations do you have that I could use as an anchor while being surro by a non trinitarian premillennial, dispensationalist community? Oh my, that. Tom, I don't think we've ever had a question like this, a question about Mormonism. Part of me feels this is a little bit beyond my pay scale. I've got a few ideas about Mormonism, what it's about, but I mean Mark has got a real dilemma here. Tom, what are your thoughts?
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Tom Wright
Well, I want to begin by saying I too know very little about the Mormon Church and the lds, though it's been very interesting over the last three or four years that both with this show and with lectures that I've done online and with some big lectures that I've done in America, there have been quite a lot of people from the LDS community who have shown up to my lectures, who've traveled to be there, and who've then invited me out for a meal to talk about issues which arise from my teaching. And clearly there are some, and I have no idea how widespread this would be. There are some within the LDS community who have heard the basic things that I'm saying and are saying actually we want to go with this, we want to build on this, we want to see where this is taking us. And that makes me wonder to what extent the non trinitarian nature of the LDS community may go back to a rejection of a rather formal or ossified trinitarianism from the 18th or 19th centuries, which the early Mormon leaders will have thought that doesn't make any sense, doesn't fit with what we are understanding. In other words, there may be a thousand different theological and practical issues which would need to be teased out. So I find it quite strange to be with such people because from one point of view they're saying we're right on board with what you're doing. We like it, we want more, da da dum. And from the other point of view, I know that they're going back into to a world which officially at least teaches several things which I wouldn't myself agree with. And the question then, which is not mine to answer because I do not have the equipment or the knowledge would be to what extent is there an overlap between some aspects of, as it were on the ground, Mormon faith and life and some aspects of more mainstream Christianity, Christian faith and life. And of course, when we say mainstream Christian, we were talking earlier on about ecumenism and about the fact that there are many, many different Protestant sects, let alone the difference between Catholic and orthodox, which teach significantly different things. And so in a sense we meet the same question at just maybe a different level. So I want to put that on the table first because I cannot pronounce on the Mormon movement as a whole in its history or in its present condition. However. However, I do want to say to Mark, I'm not quite sure why you say you try to attend a nearby Anglican or Eastern Orthodox church when possible. Is it that you have a job which requires you to work some Sundays so that you can't always get or what? I would say please find a church where you can become a regular member, where you can be a part of a worshipping family, where you can be responsible to your fellow Christians in that group group and they with you and try and find a way in which even if your wife believes it's right to take your son to a Mormon worship service, maybe in the mornings, maybe you could go somewhere else in the evenings or whatever it might be. But at the same time, please, in your home life, find ways of reading the Bible together and find ways of reading the Bible with your 5 year old son together. Brief commercial. You probably know that I have recently produced a children's Bible which is, I think in England it's called God's Big Picture Bible and or Big Story Bible and in America it's called My Big Story Bible. Maybe it's the other way around, but you'd find it anyway online. And I've been excited by the response to that, that many people with young children have said that they really latch onto the pictures as well as the words. But there are many, many, many children's Bibles out there. Just get one and read it with your 5 year old, read it and reread it and discuss it with them. Many five year olds can actually pick up the concepts and the stories quite quickly and easily. And that would be a sheet anchor which then might over the next years and months, whatever might lead you to say do you know, as we read these stories, we would feel most at home worshipping with these people. Now I fully understand that, of course, if your neighborhood is heavily Mormon, then there may well feel an imperative to go and worship with those people. And I cannot pronounce on that because as I say, I don't know what in that particular church would be taught, how it would work out, etc. I would be wary of it, naturally. But I would say the home life with the Bible and your own regular worshipping life in an Anglican or Orthodox or whatever else is appropriate church and hopefully being able to go sometimes at least with your wife and son to such a church so that they with you can share in something which is more mainstream, whatever else you feel socially you need to do. It's a difficult question. Grateful for you asking it, but I don't have a cut and dried answer.
- [33:04]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to hear from other people who may be involved in, you know, Mormon churches. What's their experience? I mean, I think, you know, my advice to Mark would be not just find a good church, but find a church where they understand Mormonism and they understand Christianity and maybe where they've met a lot of people in your position who are coming out of Mormonism trying to connect with the broader historic Christian tradition. But they feel a little bit disorientated and discombobulated by what they're doing and they're still linked into social networks and all kinds of things. So maybe that would be a good course of action.
- [33:40]
Tom Wright
Yeah.
- [33:41]
Mike Bird
Well, anyway, Tom, that's all we have time for today. We hope you've enjoyed that episode. And if you want to hear future episodes, then you need to send us your questions. Whether that's about Mormonism, messianism, where it's about salvation, tricky Bible verses, we want to hear it all. So Please go to askantyright.com Send us your questions and and hopefully your question will get answered on the show. Anyway, I'm Mike Bird. I'm joined by.
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Tom Wright
And I'm Tom Wright.
- [34:14]
Mike Bird
Thank you very much for joining us. And we'll see you on the next episode of Ask NT Wright. Anything sa.