Ask NT Wright Anything - Season 2, Episode 3: Questions about Heaven, Hell and the Rapture

Release Date: January 27, 2025
Host: Dr. Michael Bird
Guest: Tom Wright
Produced by: Premier Unbelievable

Introduction

In Season 2, Episode 3 of the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast, host Dr. Michael Bird engages in a profound theological discussion with renowned scholar Tom Wright. This episode delves into some of the most pressing questions surrounding Christian eschatology, particularly focusing on the concepts of heaven, hell, and the rapture. Drawing from scriptural analysis and historical perspectives, Bird and Wright aim to provide clarity and comfort to listeners grappling with these weighty topics.

Listener Question: God's Judgment on Sinners (00:52 - 10:28)

Question from Alex Hawkins:
“Is God's judgment on sinners eternal conscious torment or annihilation or a combination of both?”

Dr. Michael Bird presents this substantial question to Tom Wright, highlighting the anxiety many feel regarding hell and eternal punishment.

Tom Wright's Insight:

Wright offers a nuanced perspective, emphasizing the historical and scriptural context of New Testament teachings on judgment and hell. He explains that many New Testament references to imminent judgment were originally addressing the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. For instance, Jesus’ warnings about repentance were contemporaneous with the political and social turmoil of the time, urging a shift away from revolutionary ideologies that opposed Roman rule.

“The judgment is something that Jesus was warning about at the time, because it was about to happen.”
— Tom Wright [02:04]

Wright critiques the medieval and pagan-influenced imagery of hell, which often depicted eternal physical torment, arguing that such depictions stray from the more restrained New Testament portrayal. He suggests that hell should be understood as a tragic loss of being an image bearer of God rather than a place of eternal punishment.

“If somebody, by their actions, by their life, by everything that they are and do, is denying that the goodness of God should flow through them into the world... they are asking, please, can I stop being an image bearer?”
— Tom Wright [09:45]

He further distinguishes his view from both traditional eternal torment and annihilationism, proposing that hell represents a state where a person forfeits their humanity and relationship with God, resulting in a profound sense of loss rather than ongoing suffering.

Theological Perspectives on Hell

Wright elaborates on the diversity of biblical imagery used to describe hell, cautioning against taking these metaphors literally. He emphasizes that the core concept revolves around separation from God and the forfeiture of being an image bearer.

Dr. Michael Bird's Reflection:

Bird complements Wright’s analysis by acknowledging the lingering influence of medieval imagery on contemporary perceptions of hell. He references Dale Al Wilson’s observation that moral order implies a place for justice, akin to quarantining evil to preserve God's new creation.

“The hell is a good thing for the... complete justice of God, that... some forms of evil... need to be quarantined away from... God's new creation.”
— Dr. Michael Bird [11:25]

Listener Question: Location of Heaven (15:50 - 24:44)

Question from David Black:
“Where is heaven? Is it all around us? Is it in the solar system? Is it in the universe?”

Tom Wright's Explanation:

Wright addresses the often literal and spatial questions about heaven by challenging the contemporary Western worldview that confines reality to measurable dimensions like space and time. He argues that biblical language about heaven conveys God's omnipresence and intimate involvement with creation rather than a distant locale to be reached physically.

“The language of heaven is a way of saying the God who made the world is both other than the world and present to his world.”
— Tom Wright [20:18]

He encourages listeners to move beyond the simplistic notion of heaven as a place “up there” and to understand it as a integral aspect of God’s interactive and sustaining presence within and around creation. Wright references Psalm 139 to illustrate God's encompassing presence, negating the need to imagine heaven as a separate spatial entity.

Listener Question: Assurance of Salvation and Hell Anxiety (24:44 - 31:45)

Question from Jaden McCullough:
“Hi, I've been having a lot of hell anxiety. Even though I'm baptized and a believer of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, how can I find comfort?”

Tom Wright's Response:

Wright approaches Jaden's anxiety as both a personal and theological issue, recognizing the deep emotional and mental struggles that often accompany fears about salvation and hell. He advises a dual approach:

1. Spiritual Engagement:
   Wright recommends immersing oneself in Scripture, particularly passages from Romans 5-8 and Isaiah 40:1-11, to reorient one's understanding of salvation and God's comfort.

   “Read through Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8... and in the light of Romans, in the light of Isaiah, see what God is doing to you to reorient your emotions, your feelings, your fears.”
   — Tom Wright [27:01]

2. Professional Support:
   Recognizing that theological counseling alone may not suffice, he suggests seeking help from a qualified psychotherapist or Christian counselor to address underlying mental and emotional causes of the anxiety.

Wright emphasizes that assurance of salvation is rooted in the transformative work of Christ, as articulated in Romans, and encourages Jaden to internalize these truths through persistent and prayerful reading.

“Romans 5, 8, we've been baptized. We believe there is no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Jesus.”
— Tom Wright [29:30]

Dr. Michael Bird's Encouragement:

Bird echoes Wright’s sentiments, highlighting the importance of recognizing God’s unfailing love as a source of comfort. He reassures listeners that experiencing God’s love in their hearts signifies His presence and unwavering support, regardless of their feelings of inadequacy or guilt.

“If you've got some love of God and love of Christ in your heart, there's nowhere you can go where that love cannot find you.”
— Dr. Michael Bird [31:45]

Conclusion

In this episode, Dr. Michael Bird and Tom Wright thoughtfully navigate complex theological questions about heaven, hell, and the rapture. By grounding their discussion in biblical scholarship and compassionate counseling, they offer listeners both intellectual clarity and emotional reassurance. The dialogue underscores the importance of understanding eschatology not merely as doctrinal points but as deeply personal and existential concerns that impact believers' faith and well-being.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast for further exploration of theological questions and to access a wealth of resources through Premier Unbelievable.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Wright [02:04]:
  “The judgment is something that Jesus was warning about at the time, because it was about to happen.”

• Tom Wright [09:45]:
  “If somebody... is denying that the goodness of God should flow through them into the world... they are asking, please, can I stop being an image bearer?”

• Dr. Michael Bird [11:25]:
  “The hell is a good thing for the... complete justice of God, that... some forms of evil... need to be quarantined away from... God's new creation.”

• Tom Wright [20:18]:
  “The language of heaven is a way of saying the God who made the world is both other than the world and present to his world.”

• Tom Wright [27:01]:
  “Read through Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8... and in the light of Romans, in the light of Isaiah, see what God is doing to you to reorient your emotions, your feelings, your fears.”

• Dr. Michael Bird [31:45]:
  “If you've got some love of God and love of Christ in your heart, there's nowhere you can go where that love cannot find you.”

Stay Connected:
For more insightful discussions and theological explorations, visit premierunbelievable.com/shows and subscribe to the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast.