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S2E4 s salvation for everyone? Predestination, Free Will and Inclusion Theology
01:46:24
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- [00:01]
John Lennox
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- [00:46]
Tom Wright
Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave.
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Mike Bird
I was worried we'd bring back the same team.
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Tom Wright
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Mike Bird
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Tom Wright
Hard to install?
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Mike Bird
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Tom Wright
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Mike Bird
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Tom Wright
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Mike Bird
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- [01:14]
Tom Wright
Rules and restrictions may apply. The Ask NTY Anything Podcast.
- [01:32]
Mike Bird
Hello and welcome to the Ask NT Wright Anything podcast, the show where we cover your questions on the Bible, theology and the Christian life. I'm Mike Bird from Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia, and I'm joined, of course.
- [01:45]
Tom Wright
With Tom Wright here in my study in Oxford.
- [01:49]
Mike Bird
Tom, how are you?
- [01:51]
Tom Wright
I'm doing all right. We're quite busy recording this right at the end of the university term and my wife and I are getting ready to move some of our stuff up to our new house in the Outer Hebrides, where we're going to be then to and fro between there and Oxford. So it's an exciting time.
- [02:05]
Mike Bird
Okay, well, you've had an exciting time. I've just finished a tour of Turkey and Greece, traveling some of the ancient Bible lands, looking at Ephesus, Athens, Corinth. It was fantastic. It was good. I've some of these places I've never been to and it's a place which left me with a lot of questions about what was it like to worship in Ephesus? What was it like for the Apostle Paul to go, you know, walk around Galatia, Pasidian, Antioch and all those cities. And so it was a great thing. But we've got some people got some questions for us. Tom the first question comes from Kelly Anderson from St. Charles, Illinois. And this is about universalism and inclusion. And here's Kelly's question. Could you explore the concept of inclusion theology, where the cross resets human destiny towards salvation for all with free will allowing rejection of this gift? This view is somewhat that represented in CSS Lewis's writings such as the Last Battle and the Great Divorce. Does this perspective align with biblical teaching? Tom, what's your thoughts on that?
- [03:15]
Tom Wright
Oh my, oh my. These are huge questions and we get muddled here because the philosophical question of determinism and free will, which is a very old question that philosophers have been discussing for centuries, that is not the same as the Christ question of God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Again and again philosophical questions give you a kind of a two dimensional version where you're forced to choose an either or, where in determinism we're really all just pre programmed machines like little computers wound up and so on. Or free will means we're just like random atoms zooming around without any rhyme or reason and none of us really want to be either of those things. And so the philosophers come and go and I remember quite early on in my theological career realizing that that actually that is as I say, a two dimensional version of the much richer picture of a sovereign creator, God, who then creates humans in his image with a vocation, a purpose to reflect his goodness and stewardship into the world and to reflect and share the praises of creation back to God. And that's a very different picture from this God determining everything. And then does he just leave a little loophole which says, oh, by the way, you've got free will on this one? That seems to me an essentially unbiblical, unhelpful way of putting it. I do think that Lewis, particularly in the Great Divorce, gets in some ways as close as we can get to an answer because his picture of hell, his picture of the new creation are quite clearly not an equal and opposite. His picture of hell is this tiny thin place next door to non existence entirely, which is a way of sort of getting close towards what used to be called the annihilationist position, saying that there are some who choose to be in this nothingness, in this world of denial, where everything about faith, everything about affirmation of the goodness of God has been stripped away. And then the humanness of the people who do that is itself stripped away. They become less and less and less God reflectors. Indeed, you might say they cease to be God reflecting human beings at all. And that's very different from the position that many of us grew up with, which is basically the Medieval view of heaven up there, hell down there, and here are we poised nervously in between the two. And in my work, as those who've read surprised by Hope, will know, I've tried to say that old polarization of heaven and hell comes to us actually from ancient paganism via the medieval theologians who then bequeathed it to Western theology in general. And sadly, what the Protestant reformers did was to accept that framework, but then say, here's a clearer way of showing the route to, in the right direction, how to be saved. But actually what we need to do is to question the whole framework. What's going on is God is recreating the world, starting with the death and resurrection of Jesus and then summoning human beings to become genuine human beings. And the thing about being a genuine human being within Gospel language is to do with the Holy Spirit. And the work of the Holy Spirit is what differentiates this entirely from a determinism versus free will context. Because God's spirit mysteriously works in and with our spirit. Paul says, I worked harder than any of them, but it was not I, but it was the grace of God that was with me. And he says that two or three times in Colossians, in 1 Corinthians 15, and hints at the same thing elsewhere. And so then there is this mystery of God working, wooing us, transforming us, guiding us, leading us, but at every point giving us freedom in the sense of responsibility. You need to choose, you need to work at this. And Paul says, at one point, I make my body submit to my will, lest, having preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. That's a pretty scary line for us preachers that, you know, you might think, well, if anyone is going to make it into the final glory of God's new world, surely St. Paul is in that category. But then, then Paul himself says, well, there are kind of escape hatches. There's almost like a snakes and ladders thing. You might tread on a snake near the end, and then it would be terrible and disastrous. So he does envisage, even for himself, the possibility of failing, of being cast away. But he never puts it in those terms of predestination and free will. So I've not met the phrase inclusion theology, which Kelly Anderson introduces the question with. But I can see what's meant. And of course, there's a tricky thing there in that the word inclusion, inclusion these days has so many, I think, unhelpful overtones in our society. And people say, you know, God, God's love is inclusive. And the answer is well, yes, God accepts us as we are. But again and again, God doesn't want to leave us as we are. Thank God he doesn't. He wants to transform, to change, to heal, to restore, to rehumanize us, to become more shining and glorious image reflectors of his own. And if he just included us and said, you're okay as you are. Not a good scene at all. I'm struck by, I think I say in my recent book on Acts, that when Peter goes to the house of Cornelius and Cornelius says, look, I was praying and I had this vision and God told me to send for you and here you are. And now please tell us Peter doesn't say, cornelius, it sounds like you've got a great spirituality going for you already. Don't let me intrude on that. You just be the person that you are. He says, right now you need to hear about Jesus and there's a wonderful to and fro there. Cornelius is already clearly in touch with God that is leading him to then the embrace of the Gospel. So I think I want to say, please don't talk in terms of determinism or destiny and free will. That collapses the question back into rather sterile categories. Instead, try to think trinitarianly. Try to think about what God has done in and through and as the human being, Jesus, to rehumanize us and by the Spirit, enable us to choose wisely and to embrace our vocation of reflecting God into the world. That doesn't answer the question full on, but I think it resets. It says, please, can we actually think in terms of these more biblical categories? Because the ones we've inherited from the Western theological tradition really aren't going to help us.
- [09:55]
Mike Bird
Yeah, I'm amazed, Tom, the number of questions we get about heaven and hell and on things like who's going to be saved in the end. I mean, a lot of people have questions in that. You could say it's kind of based on the tension within the New Testament itself, because if you read something like Romans 5, you've got like, you know, everyone dies in Adam and everyone can be made alive in Christ. So you could say that, you know, because we're all died in Adam, therefore the logic is that everyone's made alive in Christ. And yet you go to Romans 10 and there's a big emphasis that, you know, people have got to have the gospel preached to them, them so they, they can believe. And it's like the, you know, the way Paul quotes Isaiah, the word has gone out. So, yeah, there is a Tension in the New Testament between the work of Christ is universal, available and inclusive in that sense, but it also requires an appropriation. I think what people miss out on is the work of the Spirit behind the preaching, the leading, the drawing, the people, and the way people can even resist the Holy Spirit through what they hear. But I think the Trinitarian aspect is definitely what's missing. People just want boxes saved, not save. Is held eternal or temporary without understanding. It's more complicated than these medieval or cultural boxes we've designed.
- [11:14]
Tom Wright
And I think knowing particularly the American scene, so many people in America, it's not so true in other parts of the English speaking world. But in America particularly, so many people grew up either in Protestant fundamentalism or in Catholic fundamentalism, where they were simply told there are these two destinations, heaven and hell, and here's the button to press to make sure that you miss out the second and get to the first. And really that framework is what needs to be challenged with the New Testament's teaching. And I think the other thing, I very much like what you say about Romans 5 and 10, but Romans 5 and the word all. And I don't want to diminish that, but I think for Paul, again and again, the thing he had to get across to his hearers was that this means Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female. This is not one ethnic category, it's not one gender category, it's not one social category. It's all. And that sense of, oh my goodness, here's a large world. But if all had meant all humans without exception, then why is he in tears at the start of chapter nine and why is he praying earnestly at the start of chapter 10? My heart's desire and pray to God for them is that they may be saved. He wants his fellow Judeans to be saved, but that's not a done deal. If he had been the sort of universalist that some people are when they read Romans 5, then there would not have been a problem. He might have said, oh, I know it looks as though there's a problem at the moment, but actually there's an easy solution and you just can't get that out of his text.
- [12:45]
Mike Bird
Well, Tom, I think we've hit a great line of questioning. We've got a similar one coming up. So let's take a break and let's continue on with another question about predestination and free will.
- [13:02]
John Lennox
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- [14:04]
Mike Bird
Okay, we are back. Well, keeping in with our predestination theme, we've got a question now from Dominic Man Montano from Albuquerque, New Mexico. And Dominic asks, how does predestination fit with the concept of free will and salvation? If God predestined some people to be saved, does this imply a lack of choice which would seem coercive? Now, I think, Tom, you've already answered this a little bit, but it's certainly narrowing down on the answer. Like, you know, if things are predestined, in what sense do we even have free will? I mean, I think that that's, that's, that's the question. But Tom, can I, before you answer it, can I open up with a, a little, a little joke that I tell when I get this question? There was a good, a good Calvinist. Now, Calvinists normally believe in predestination and, and everything like that. He gets to heaven and he sees two lines. One says free will, and another one says predestination. You know, being the Calvinist, he goes into the predestination line and he gets to the front of the line and the angel says, so why are you in this line? And he says, well, I chose it. And then the angel says, oh, well, if you chose it, then, then you need to be in the free will line. So he goes over to the free will line, he waits, gets to the front of it, and the angel says, what are you doing here? And he goes, oh, someone made me come here. And so if they made you come here, then you need to be in the predestined line. So he's kind of back and forth. For me, that's a good emblem of how confusing the debate is between free will and predestination. How does free will exist within the orbit of God's sovereign purposes? Tom? I think that's what Dominic is getting at.
- [15:48]
Tom Wright
Yeah, it is indeed. And I have a story of my own in the next room to where I'm sitting. A year or two ago I was having lunch with my grandchildren, three of my grandchildren, and the oldest one, the 11 year old girl, was reading a novel as she always does lunch. So she's taking no notice of what's going on. So it seemed. But the seven year old grandson had a question for grandfather. He says, grandfather, if God does everything, why does it matter what we do? And I was taken aback by that. You know, we were just serving out lunch. Excuse me, this is a heavy thing. And so, but he couldn't wait. He said, grandfather, if God is responsible for everything, why does it matter that we should be responsible for anything? At which point the granddaughter took her nose out of the book and said, ugh, the illusion of free will. And dived straight back into her book again. And at which point I thought to myself, I'm going to use this in a sermon. And sure enough, I have done once or twice. But it's fascinating. I mean, that question came from a seven year old. So it's not a sophisticated question that only arises when you're doing postgraduate study. But again, as before, it's the old question of the philosopher's version of destiny and freedom as opposed to the theologian's version of what predestination and human responsibility is all about. And I would now say it's about human vocation. In the lectures that I did on Romans some years ago, which is now in my little book called into the Heart of Romans, I found myself exploring the Old Testament roots of what Paul says in Romans 8. And Romans 8 is one of the classic passages, Romans 8, 28:30, which has been sadly misunderstood I think in the tradition, because there the language Paul is using all comes out of the Isaiah, the Psalms theme of God calling human beings to be genuine human beings. There's a lot of Psalm 8 in there. What are humans that you are mindful of them, you've made them little lower the angels to crown them with glory and honor, putting all things in subjection under their feet. And as one of my graduate students, Hayley Goranson Jacob, in her book argues this is rooted in or the Psalm 8 is the root of so much of Romans 8, 1830, where what Paul is talking about is the Israel shaped vocation to be part of God's purposes for the world. And the point is not God's purposes for us, it's God's purposes through us. And the justified and glorified passage actually goes Back to Isaiah 45 in the Septuagint. It's a clear echo. And there it's about the people of God, Israel as the servant people through whom God will be glorified in the world rather than, as we have tended to see it, us being glorified, that is us going to a place called glory, which is the same as our medieval heaven image. So once you begin to glimpse a very different perspective, an Old Testament perspective, a biblical perspective coming through Paul's theology, at that point it reframes the whole thing. The same is true in that other great so called predestinarian passage in Ephesians chapter one. And again, I've been lecturing on that recently and there's a book coming out, God willing, next year called I think the Challenge of ephesians and Ephesians 1. Again, isn't about God predestining people to salvation. It's God's purpose, which is the Israel shaped purpose for and through Jesus Christ, for them, the whole of humanity to be people who are small working models of new creation. And it's that purpose that we are called for. And of course, if you then turn around and say, well, in the end, when God makes the new creation, creation will you be part of, Will you be raised from the dead? The answer is, well, yes, of course, and that's part of the picture. But that's not the center of the picture. The danger in so much modern theology, Catholic, Protestant, charismatic, liberal too, is that we've thought the question was all about us, whereas in fact the question is all about God and God's purposes in and through human beings for the whole creation. And by making the story all about us, we miss out, for instance, all that stuff in Romans 8:18 through 27 about the renewal of creation and how the groaning of creation is reflected in the groaning of human beings and in the groaning of the Holy Spirit. Again, you need the trinitarian vision to see the whole picture. So many people have just missed the Holy Spirit out in the either or that you so rightly characterized as either predestination or free will. Where's the Holy Spirit in that? The Holy Spirit is God active in the world, God's breath in the world. And the question is whether we are breathing in the Holy Spirit and then enabled to reflect God's purposes into the world. Those who do that are assured that the Spirit who indwells them in the present, will continue to hold them in life after their death and will be the agent of their resurrection into the new creation. That that's not the primary thing that we're talking about. The primary thing is the creator God doing new creation and summoning and enabling men and women and children to be part of that, that for his world. That's the focus. And if we turn it back on ourselves we are bound to end up with this either or which is actually a sterile debate. I've taken part in that debate most of my adult and pretty well all my adult life and it is basically sterile. We need the biblical one rather than the one that the middle ages have bequeathed us.
- [21:36]
Mike Bird
Yep, I agree Tom. I mean one thing I've learned From reading Romans 8, Ephesians 1, a bit of the reformed tradition and from your own, your own work in Romans is that when Paul thinks about predestination or foreknowledge, he thinks about it through a christological lens, a light of in Christ. I mean you've got a wonderful phrase where God has predestined above all to create a Christ shaped family. You know, we would be conformed to the image of Christ and so there would be little mini Christ. You know, we can call this predestined to Christification if you, if you like. So, so God has predestined humans not just to go into the saved box but to be little examples of Christ saved by Christ, baptized into his death and resurrection, imitating their Lord as they live, advertising the new creation going forth. So predestination has a very Christ centered purpose and should never be abstracted from that. The other thing that, that, that dawned on me and this was revolution. This really changed my thinking. When Paul talks about predestination in Romans 8 and Romans 1, it's not like oh I wonder who's predestined and who's not. Like if you had an app, you could go around testing people if they're predestined or not. The purpose of predestination is to provide a sense of assurance. It's like if, if God has brought you into this Christ shaped family, given you the Spirit, made you alive, given this vocation, if God has done that, then that's what he planned from all eternity and he's in the process of bringing it through to completion. So I mean those are the two aspects I think are lacking on this talk of just predestination. It's Christ centered focus, being part of a Christ shaped family. And it's there not to create anxiety about are you elect or not, but to give you assurance that if God has brought you to the family of faith that was in the divine mind and eternally passed, and he will bring it through to the end.
- [23:38]
Tom Wright
Yeah, and I think then the idea of being Christ shaped, I've just been lecturing this last term on Isaiah 40, 55 and so much in the servant songs from Isaiah 42, 49, 50 and then 53 or 52 and 3 is about the shaping of the Messianic vocation, which is of course to be the royal figure, the prophetic figure, the suffering figure, but then to be the one who is given as a covenant to the nations, as a light to those in darkness, et cetera. In other words, saying we're conformed to the image of the Son is not pulled back into a safe space away from the rest of the world. It's shaped in order to be God's people for the rest of the world and that that's who Jesus was. If I'm lifted up from the world, I will draw all people to myself. He said that the shaping then of the Christ shaped family is to be the people of God for the world. Of course, in Romans that's worked out in chapters 12 to 16, particularly where the church is to model that sense of new creation. Neither Jew nor Greek, etc. So once we get this the right way round, I think a lot of neuroses and anxieties can, as you say, just slip away. Okay. Trust God, get on with the job, pray for the Holy Spirit, get on with the job. Be, be Christ, Christ shaped people and get on with the job. That. That's how it works.
- [25:06]
Mike Bird
Yeah, well, that I think that's what we, we are predestined to, is to get on with the vocation of Christian living. Well, Tom, that's probably a good point for us to end on today. Let me say to all of our listeners and viewers, thank you for sending in us your questions. We are eager to hear more. So go to ask nt right.com and we would love to hear more questions for pretty much anything, the Bible, theology, the Christian life. We are ready and eager to answer your questions. So that's all from us this week. Have a blessed time and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Ask NT Write Anything podcast. Until then, God bless. You've been listening to the Ask Anti Write Anything podcast. Let other people know about this show by rating and reviewing it in your podcast provider.
- [31:02]
Unknown
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