Ask NT Wright Anything – Episode Summary
Podcast: Ask NT Wright Anything
Host: Mike Bird, with NT (Tom) Wright
Episode Title: Should Church Leaders Be Ordained? Are We Needed To Usher In The New Creation?
Date: September 7, 2025
Overview
This episode explores three central listener questions:
- How Christians cooperate with the Holy Spirit to usher in the new creation
- Whether church hierarchy/ordination is necessary or potentially harmful
- How to interpret the two resurrections in Revelation 20
Mike Bird and NT Wright engage in thoughtful, sometimes divergent conversation, with Wright's signature blend of pastoral insight and scriptural depth and Bird's practical, sometimes skeptical, perspective. Notably, both hosts acknowledge the complexity and nuance in these perennial debates.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Cooperating with the Holy Spirit in the New Creation
Listener Question: How do Christians work with the Holy Spirit to help usher in the new creation? Is it a gradual process or a dramatic event?
Timestamp: 03:29
Tom Wright’s Response:
- Central Text: Romans 8 (cf. his book Into the Heart of Romans)
- Theological Dynamic: The Holy Spirit indwells believers, creating a fusion where it's "very difficult and dangerous" to distinguish 'our spirit' from the Holy Spirit (04:28).
- Contribution to New Creation:
- Believers "are not bringing about the new creation by our own efforts," but rather "borrow from that promised future, bringing into the present signs of hope from God’s new world." (06:26)
- The Church lives out sacramental signs of this future; believers are "caught up in what God is doing at the moment."
- Prayer and Lament: Drawing from Romans 8:26-27, Wright details the “groaning” of creation, the Church, and the Spirit—all caught up in God’s purpose and suffering, with prayer as an instrument through which God brings about renewal (08:26).
- Process—Gradual or Sudden?:
- Most often, the Spirit works through “many small steps,” but sometimes acts dramatically. Wright cites the saying "push—pray until something happens" (10:10), highlighting the value of persistent prayer.
Notable Quote:
“We are caught up in the extraordinary dialogue between the Spirit groaning with the pain and suffering and horror of the world, and God the Father listening to that and knowing what’s happening and sustaining the purpose of renewing the whole...world.”
— NT Wright (09:16)
Follow-Up: Can Non-Christians Help Usher the New Creation?
Timestamp: 10:43
- Biblical Analogy: God uses unexpected agents like Cyrus in Isaiah 45, "despite the fact he did not know Yahweh" (11:32).
- Wright’s View: God can and does use all manner of people and organizations—including secular governments, charities, and NGOs—to advance his purposes.
- Church’s Role: To “speak truth to power,” supporting any advance of good and justice, while also offering critique.
- Missional Reflection: These good works, even performed "without God," are still preferable to anarchy as God desires justice and mercy regardless of human acknowledgement (13:50).
Notable Quote:
"What we are seeing in our generation is the post-Enlightenment Western world trying to do without God, what the church had always tried to do with God, and that God would much rather have it done even if people don’t acknowledge him, than not have it done."
— NT Wright (13:53)
2. Church Hierarchy and Ordination
Listener Question: Do churches put too much emphasis on hierarchy and official leadership roles? What can Acts 6–7 and early church practice teach us?
Timestamp: 14:57
Tom Wright’s Response:
- Personal Disclosure: Wright has long been ordained; he sees both “virtues and vices” of hierarchy (16:42).
- Dangers of Hierarchy: Hierarchy’s vices include leaders seeing themselves "beyond criticism," resulting in scandals (17:00).
- Free Churches: Even congregations without formal structures (e.g., Quakers, some Brethren churches) have had similar problems, indicating that leadership temptations are universal.
- Acts 6–7: The apostles' refusal to neglect “the Word of God and prayer” is not contempt; rather, it’s a necessary division of labor for the health of the Church (19:19).
- Spirit-Led Ministries: When the Spirit equips people, their ministries often evolve beyond original roles (e.g., Stephen and Philip in Acts 6–7 become apologist and evangelist).
- Balance and Flexibility:
- Church “needs structure, because without structure, we’re like a body without bones.”
- But structure must be flexible enough to allow the Spirit to lead in unexpected ways (22:15).
- Ordination: Ideally is when the church “prays for the Holy Spirit to equip this person...to do these specific tasks,” but we must be open to where their ministry leads.
Notable Quotes:
“I don’t think we should say either yes to hierarchy or no to hierarchy.”
— NT Wright (17:40)
“When God is at work...we should expect and pray for ministries of various levels and sorts to emerge from the community.”
— NT Wright (21:13)
Mike Bird’s Summary:
“If we don’t have some sense of leadership and direction and structure, we’re just going to run around doing our own thing in 10 different ways.” (23:12)
3. Interpretation of Resurrection(s) in Revelation 20
Listener Question: Revelation 20:4–6 refers to two resurrections ("the first resurrection" and another resurrection after 1,000 years). How do these relate to the otherwise clear biblical teaching of one resurrection for all at Christ’s return?
Timestamp: 26:19
Tom Wright’s Response:
- Canonical Framework: Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3 speaks of two resurrections: Jesus’ and that of all believers at the end. Revelation 20 is the “tricky” text.
- Nature of Revelation: Highly symbolic, not always intended for literalist readings ("do not try this at home"—29:53).
- Interpretive Option:
- The “first resurrection” may refer to the Church’s spiritual resurrection in the present—believers as a “royal priesthood” (cf. Rev 5, Romans 6, Colossians 3).
- Martyrdom is a characteristic of the Church age and is spiritually vindicated.
- Openness to Multiple Views:
- Wright acknowledges he’s “not a Revelation expert” and is willing to leave room for other readings.
- Cautions Against Over-Systematizing:
- The passage is designed to “tease and puzzle” and may not permit dogmatic theological systems.
Notable Quote:
“Of all the passages in the Bible, this is one where I would want to say I do not want to be dogmatic about this...Revelation is often like that.”
— NT Wright (33:17)
Mike Bird’s Counterpoint:
- Noting those raised in “the first resurrection” don’t seem to participate in the second—implying it may refer to a specific group of martyrs rewarded after a unique persecution (34:21).
- He oscillates between seeing this as a general symbolic pattern or a prophetic reference to a specific end-time scenario, influenced by what commentary he’s reading.
“There are some days where I think, yeah, this is just a general pattern...but maybe this is about a particular time in the future...”
— Mike Bird (35:25)
Wright’s Historical Perspective:
- Summarizes the development of postmillennial and premillennial interpretations (“the more I’ve looked...nice try, no cigar. That’s just not how this language is meant to work.”—36:43)
- Returns to his view that scriptural puzzles like this may become clearer to future generations. (39:22)
Notable Closing Quote:
“There have to be always passages of scripture which tease and puzzle us...church history is a matter of constantly struggling to grow up into the full revelation of what’s in Scripture.”
— NT Wright (39:35)
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- “If you can get a razor blade of meaning between who our Spirit then is and who the Holy Spirit is—well, good luck to you.”
— NT Wright (04:07) - “God can and does use all sorts of means—politicians, agencies, the United Nations, etc. It doesn’t mean that everything they do is thereby okay.”
— NT Wright (13:29) - “Structure—without it, we’re like a body without bones. We just become flabby. Or, worse, somebody comes along and says, ‘I’ll tell you exactly what to do,’ and you get a kind of totalitarian rule over the church, which is deeply unhealthy.”
— NT Wright (22:18) - “Of all the passages in the Bible, I think this is one where I would want to say I do not want to be dogmatic about this.”
— NT Wright (33:17) - “I go back and forth on this passage all the time, Tom, because students always ask me about it...really depends on what commentary I’m reading at the time about what I’m persuaded by on a given day.”
— Mike Bird (35:39)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:29: How Christians cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the new creation
- 10:43: Can non-Christian agencies help usher in new creation?
- 14:57: Should church leaders be ordained? Is hierarchy necessary?
- 26:19: What do the two resurrections in Revelation 20 mean?
- 39:35: Concluding thoughts on humility and scriptural puzzles
Tone and Style
The episode is engaging and warm, characterized by Wright’s intellectual humility and deep biblical knowledge, and Bird’s wit and practical bent. They blend scholarly depth with accessibility, frequently turning to imagery and lived examples.
For Listeners Wanting More
Listeners are encouraged to submit further questions, especially on the Book of Revelation and other challenging topics, and to check out bonus episodes for deeper dives into Acts, justification, and more.