Tom Wright (2:52)

The building for the kingdom?

Mike Bird (2:53)

Yeah, building for the kingdom.

Tom Wright (2:55)

Of course, I should say, perhaps I should just explain that in case, because clearly our correspondent does understand that difference. But people have often said to me, are you saying we build the kingdom here? And I've said, no, we are building for the kingdom. And the illustration I use is the stonemasons who are carving stone which is to be used in a cathedral. They are not building the cathedral, they are working for the cathedral, which eventually the master architect will build, gathering up the bits and pieces that the different workers have been producing so that then the work that that's been done will mean something much more than itself because of the new context in which it's placed. And I think that's really important. And I don't know very much about what data analysts do, I'm afraid, but I assume that data analysis has to do with bringing order to the world and enabling good order to take place in terms of getting data right and getting things sorted out. And bringing order to the world is actually one of the primary human responsibilities. When God says you're to look after the garden and Psalm 8 about all authority being given by God to humans, it's to order God's world in a way which will make sense and create the capacity for beauty, productivity, for healthy and happy outward going life, if you like. Now, I imagine that data analysis contributes to that, but at the same time I'm aware that by what I've written about this, which isn't very much, it's just a chapter or two in Surprise by Hope and one or two things elsewhere. And I do know Miroslav Volf's work, but I don't know the other book that was mentioned. But there's a danger then that if you, like white Western middle class theologians, write about the sort of things that white Western middle class people are interested in, like music or poetry or whatever it may be, but the vast majority of human beings, for the vast majority of human history, including today, are not able to exercise vocations in areas which obviously contribute towards the great task of God's new creation. However, I would say along with George Herbert in that famous poet where he says, if somebody is sweeping a room, if that's done out of service to God, then that's great, that's part of the work of God. And I think some of us maybe need to have a little bit more humility about what sorts of work we're talking about. Because I think if Paul were to address this question, and the quote was given from the end of 1 Corinthians 15, about inasmuch as what you do in the Lord is not in vain, I think Paul would say from his experience of what people did in the Lord in Philippi or Corinth or Rome or elsewhere, there's a lot of people going about very ordinary, humdrum jobs on the farm or on a building site or whatever, which don't look actually as if they've got anything very much to do with God's new creation. But if they're working honestly and if they're working wisely, and if they are bringing the potential for order and beauty into God's world, then in ways we cannot possibly imagine, like the stone mason carving his little stone, unable to imagine the cathedral which is going to be made in ways we can't possibly imagine, God will gather all that up and take all that energy, goodwill, prayer, humility, faith, hope, and put it all together into the great new creation that he's going to make. I think that's probably as far as I can take that line of thought. Does that make sense? Do you want to come back on that?

Mike Bird (6:52)

No, I think that's exactly right, Tom. Even the mundane work we do, whether it's looking at data sweeping a floor or anything, even that can have a sanctifying effect upon our world, our lives, the lives of other people, if we are bringing creation to the ends for which it was intended. So God doesn't want us to live in a mess where it's unhygienic and unhealthy. So sweeping the floor is a good idea. I hope my children are listening. And similarly, being a data analyst, if you're analyzing data, whether it's for a financial institution or for the educational sector, you're helping those sectors achieve the goals for which will enhance the human condition and is preparing the world, this area of vocation to reflect something of the goodness of the new creation. That's how I did it.

Tom Wright (7:49)

That's great.

Mike Bird (7:50)

Well, our next question is from Richard Morris on Tambourine Mountain. I hope that's Tambourine Mountain in Australia, because that's a beautiful place. Got a question about whether the incarnation was really necessary. So Richard asks, why did Jesus have to be God as well as man to make his death effective, to make salvation through his death and resurrection potent and powerful? Now, Tom, I've heard this question before. I mean, couldn't God just pick any righteous Judean or Galilean, someone who was maybe a prophet, you know, someone who was maybe a holy man or even a holy woman who could die for our sins? Because there's in the Maccabean literature, there's the image of the Maccabean martyrs who died at the hands of the Seleucids, about their death having a redemptive or even atoning effect for the nation. Did we need a messiah? Did we need a God man to take away our sins? Why can't we just have another Maccabean martyr? Why does the atonement.

Tom Wright (8:56)

Excuse me, sorry.

Mike Bird (8:57)

Why does the atonement require Jesus to be both divine and human?

Tom Wright (9:04)

If we take the line of thought that's being offered there, where any human being who was perhaps righteous and devout could have done the same job as with the Maccabean martyrs supposedly, and maybe others, then you would have to say that if you take John 3:16, it wouldn't be God so loved the world that he gave his only son, it would be God so loved the world that he gave somebody else entirely. Or in the language of Romans 5, where the death of Jesus reveals the love of God, then you would have to say, well no, the death of Jesus reveals maybe the provision of God, but not the love of God. Whereas the whole point of Paul's gospel and the way that John presents the story is that in Jesus the Messiah we see God's own love at work and that that remains fundamental, not just a sort of extra bit added on. And I come at it from the other end of the telescope. If you like, look at Genesis 1 and then Genesis 12. In Genesis 1, God creates human beings in his own image because God wants to come and be a human being, a man among men, if you like, or a human among humans. And I take that very seriously that already in the creation of image bearing humans we have an advance promise of incarnation. But then when humans rebel and everything goes horribly wrong, God doesn't say, oh, we'll forget that plan because humans are obviously never going to be any good. God calls a human being Abraham and says, I got a job for you. In you and in your seed, all the families of the earth will be blessed. In other words, God then calls Abraham and his family as the means of rescuing the Adam, Eve and their whole project. And then when Abraham's family themselves, starting with Abraham himself, when they go wrong, when they get modeled, when they sin, when they go off the rails Ultimately, when they go into exile, God doesn't say, which many, many Christian theologians have said, that God then scraps the Israel plan and says, okay, I'm going to do something quite different. And that's where the problem comes in, that people then say, so God becomes incarnate to do the job which they couldn't do. No, God becomes incarnate because from the call of Abraham onwards, God created Israel to be the salvation bringer of the world in order that he could himself become the bringer of salvation to the world by becoming human in and as Israel's representative. And that's the line from Abraham to David and from David to great David's greater son that God says To David in 2 Samuel 7, I will raise up your seed after you, and he will sit on your throne. I will be his father and he will be my son, and he will build a temple. And the New Testament picks up that and other language about the temple building and says that this is God's plan to come and live in the world in and as a human being.

Mike Bird (12:17)

I was about to mention that the temple is proof that God wants his presence with the people.

Tom Wright (12:23)

Exactly.

Mike Bird (12:24)

The temple was only a portal or a provision for God's presence. The ultimate presence of God with his people would be in the incarnation. And then when God's people enjoy God's presence fully in the new creation.

Tom Wright (12:40)

Yes, yes. And there is no temple in the new creation because God himself is there.

Mike Bird (12:43)

Exactly.

Tom Wright (12:44)

And indeed, you've already got that coming in in John's Gospel where Jesus spoke of the temple of his body, and Jesus acts and speaks in such a way as to draw onto himself the significance of the temple. And the temple was of course, where the divine presence came to dwell and the place of sacrifice and atonement. And the strange way in which God deals with his people's sins and all that therein is so that already throughout the Old Testament, I think we have this strange sense of God the Creator, designing humanity and then Israel in such a way that it would make sense for him to come and be the true human, but to be the true human who rescues all the other true humans, as it were. So that if we're asking the question that way around, instead of it being a bit odd, why did God have to do this? See, no, I think there's a way of saying this was the plan all through.

Mike Bird (13:49)

I think that's right. And God's plan was always to unite Himself with His creation through the word become flesh.

Tom Wright (13:56)

Absolutely. You just more or less quoted Ephesians 1:10 as you probably. Exactly.

Mike Bird (14:01)

Exactly. Well, we're going to take a break and when we come back we're going to look at where is the promise of his Coming onto that in a moment.

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Mike Bird (14:47)

Our third question for this week comes from Gene Burke in Oakview, California. And this is about the delay in Jesus's return. And Gene says, hello, Dr. Wright, I have found your assertions regarding the kingdom of God and its relation to the resurrection of the dead very helpful. But why should I believe that such an event will occur since it has been 2000 years since Jesus alleged resurrection? Your description of the kingdom of God as described in the Bible makes sense. But that very description in conjunction with its non occurrence after 2000 years from Jesus resurrection works against my faith. Urging patience rather than admitting that the promise is probably false. Seems like a mistake. Could you please comment on this? Thanks. Yeah, Tom, it's like 2,000 years. I mean, that's a long time between drinks. Okay, that's a long time between drinks. It's a very big interregnum. When is Jesus coming back? This whole resurrection new creation. You've majored on those points as a Bible teacher, why the delay? Do you have a date you want to assign?

Tom Wright (16:00)

I certainly don't. And one of the reasons for that is that Jesus says of that day and that hour, nobody knows, not even the Son. Which is an extraordinary statement, by the way, as people have often pointed out, the early church would never have invented that. Putting on Jesus own lips a statement of his own ignorance. Exactly. Therefore, I think we have to assume whatever else we think about the criticism, historical criticism of the gospels, that Jesus really did say that he didn't know the day. However, that comes in Matthew 24, which is primarily about the destruction of the temple. And the question at the beginning of that chapter, as of Mark 13 and Luke 21, as you know, is all about Jesus saying the whole thing is going to be torn down and the disciples saying when and how does that relate and what will be the signs? And how does all this fit together? Our Problem then is that in the middle of that discourse, Mark 13 in parallels, Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 about the Son of Man coming on the clouds, which has routinely been taken in terms of a descent of the Son of Man, Jesus coming back from heaven to earth. And so people have said there's the second coming and everything else falls in around there. And then Jesus says that this generation will not pass away till it's all happened. And so people have looked at that and said, but the generation did pass away and it hadn't happened. Which is then slightly strange if you think as many do, that Matthew and Luke at least were written post AD 70, that they're kind of still waiting. I think this is a tissue of misunderstanding and I think I want to stress two things, one of which is that already in the New Testament we see the fulfillment of Jesus promise in ways that hadn't been expected. Because in Matthew 26, when Caiaphas asks Jesus, are you the Messiah, the son of the blessed? Jesus says, you've said the words, but let me tell you this. And then there's a phrase in the Greek ap arce which means from now on, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven. And then if you go to the end of Matthew's gospel, Matthew 28, Jesus says, right at the end, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, not will be given to me when we've finished the present work of the kingdom, but has already been given to me. And that is picked up similarly the phrase to Caiaphas in Luke's version of the same story. And this goes in my mind with the beginning of Acts, when the disciples who are thoroughly perplexed and puzzled, yeah, excited, but have no idea what's really going on. We didn't expect all this. We didn't expect Jesus to be crucified. We then didn't expect him to be raised from the dead. Where are we in the timetable? They say, lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? Now there are some people who think that Jesus answer means no, no, no, there's going to be a long delay and then the kingdom will be restored. I think that's completely wrong. I think Jesus answer is yes, but yes, the kingdom is already being inaugurated right now. But what it looks like is not Israel becoming top nation with Peter, James and John, as you know, the senior ministers in a new government and running the world from a new Jerusalem or something. What it looks like Is you lot receiving power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and then you going off, you know not where. Some of you getting hurt, some of you getting killed, but the Gospel going to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and out beyond Rome and past. So that I think we see a redefinition of the kingdom in terms of the genuinely inaugurated eschatology. I know it's a technical phrase which not everyone will understand. So eschatology, what God has promised, has always promised, which is that God will take his power and reign over the world. But it's been inaugurated. That is to say, it's begun in Jesus. He is already ruling the world from his ascended position and through his Spirit. But this is something which has taken me all my lifetime, really, even to begin to get my head around. What you see in the Sermon on the Mount is the redefinition of how the kingdom is going to happen. I've often said people expect that if God really was going to be king, he would send in the tanks and sort out all those wicked people. He'll just put them all into the depths of the ocean. No, in the Sermon on the Mount, when God becomes king, he doesn't send in the tanks. He sends in the pure and the Spirit and the meek and the mourners and the brokenhearted and the hungry for justice people and so on. And they are the ones by whose humble service God becomes king in ways that the disciples could hardly even imagine. By the end of the second century, and certainly by the end of the third century, this had been so effective with them looking after the poor, building schools, orphanages, looking after the sick and so on, that the majority of the Roman Empire was becoming Christian, even though Rome had been trying to stamp it out. That is an unforeseeable prospect from the point of view of the first disciples. So I want to say then that's the big general point, that actually something was inaugurated. And it was inaugurated within a generation because Jerusalem was destroyed. And that left, as it were, Jesus enthroned, with the new mission going ahead, the mission of the twelve as the true representatives of God's ancient people going out into the world, Israel being the light to the nations at last. But then in the light of that, all the promises about this same Jesus will come in the same way that you saw him go. This is no problem in terms of patience and faith. We are told again and again God is not going to foreclose. God is not willing that any should perish. He wants everyone to reach Repentance doesn't mean everyone will, but that's God's intention. So as many Judean thinkers said in the time before Jesus, God is delaying his judgmental action to give more people a chance to come on board with his will. So the one passage in the New Testament which really does raise this flag, which is in Second Peter, I think has it exactly right. One day is with the Lord is a thousand years. A thousand years is one day. So get used to it, guys, and learn how to be patient, which were all rather bad at. But the question gets extra force from this idea that nothing really happened since the Resurrection and we're still waiting for something to happen. And the answer is no, Jerusalem did fall as Jesus said it would. The Gospel has gone out to the ends of the earth. The world has been transformed. We've discussed before all the stuff that Tom Holland has written about the way in which Christianity has informed and infiltrated into the way that the world as a whole now thinks so that we still look for much more, of course, and ultimately for Jesus return. But we're not simply sitting around twiddling our thumbs. We have a job to do which genuinely anticipates that final day.

Mike Bird (23:50)

So we're not just waiting, we're working, building for the kingdom. I want to add just a couple of things to that, Tom. I point out to people that Cleopatra, Cleopatra VII is closer to us than she is to the original pyramids. So in terms of she's closer to our time because you think pyramids than Cleopatra. Now she's closer to us in a number of years. And I forget who it was. Maybe it was Michael Ramsey who said in the year 10,000 A.D. they will look back on the year 2025 as part of the early church.

Tom Wright (24:27)

Yes, yes.

Mike Bird (24:27)

That's an amazing thing that people would consider us the first 2000 years for Christianity. It was a formative stage for the development of Christian doctrine or something.

Tom Wright (24:37)

That's right, because they did a fest drift, a volume of essays to honor Michael Ramsey. And the title of that book was Great Christian Centuries to Come. Now, some people might think that that idea represents a slackening of the desire for Jesus to come. And I'm sure Michael Ramsey would have been the first to say Alleluia, Come, Lord, come. You know, that's the best, because we're not expecting that the world will just gradually incrementally get slightly better. There are no signs of that. In fact, the last two centuries, the 19th and the 20th century, have seen more wars and rumors of wars than any other time before, as far as we know. But that doesn't mean either that Jesus can't come very quickly or that we are just bumbling along without any good things happening.

Mike Bird (25:30)

Yeah, well, that's all we've got time for today. Remember, you can keep sending us your questions@askntirite.com our next episode will feature questions about churches and spiritual protection, what does it mean to be saved, and how to deal with bad teachers. And of course, while you're waiting, check out the back catalog of episodes. I mean, if you've got a few spare minutes, a bit of spare time on the treadmill or on the train, go listen to some of our previous episodes. Otherwise, it's farewell from me, Mike Bird.

Tom Wright (26:02)

And goodbye from me, Tom Wright.

Mike Bird (26:04)

And we'll see you on the next episode of Ask N.T. wright. Anything. Until then.

Tom Wright (26:08)

God bless you all.

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