Episode Overview

Podcast: Ask NT Wright Anything
Host: Mike Bird
Guest: NT Wright (Tom Wright)
Episode: Tom Holland vs the Nativity: NT Wright answers
Date: December 21, 2025

This Advent episode tackles historical questions about the Nativity narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, focusing on critiques raised by historian Tom Holland (not the actor). The hosts delve into skepticism around Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, the plausibility of the census, and reconcile difficult historical details regarding the birth narratives. Along the way, NT Wright provides nuanced insights into biblical interpretation, emphasizing both the challenges and importance of historical investigation into the origins of Christianity.

Main Discussion Points

1. Introducing Tom Holland’s Criticisms and Historical Skepticism

• [02:16–05:17]
  • Questions presented from listeners (Ben Goddard and Sheila Thomas) based on Tom Holland's public remarks:
    • The historicity of Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem.
    • Plausibility of a Roman census requiring people to return to their ancestral towns.
    • The fit with other Nativity details—flight to Egypt, Herod’s massacre, the timing of rulers.
  • Tom Holland is praised as a historian who reminds society of Christianity’s deep influence, though he remains personally agnostic.
  • Differentiation of "Tom Holland the historian" from "Tom Holland the actor."

2. Ancient History’s Gaps and the Dangers of Over-Confidence

• [07:50–11:57]
  • NT Wright’s General Caution on Ancient Evidence:
    • Scarcity and gaps in ancient sources; contrast with modern history’s abundance of data.
    • Cites how scholarly consensus can shift dramatically with new archeological finds (e.g., the Gallio inscription).
    • Warns against definitive denial based on current absence of evidence.
      • Quote:
        “Be careful with ancient history, cause it doesn't work like that.”
        – NT Wright [10:53]
    • Journalists and popular culture often desire scholarly skepticism, but the historical probabilities are frequently more open.

3. The Census of Quirinius and Luke’s Greek Explained

• [11:57–15:51]
  • Discussion of the Greek in Luke 2:2 ("the census when Quirinius was governor of Syria").
    • NT Wright’s Argument:
      • The Greek is better translated as "this census was before the one when Quirinius was governor"—not during Quirinius’ tenure.
        • Quote:
          “…the natural meaning of the Greek is this census was before the time when Quirinius was governor of Syria…”
          – NT Wright [13:19]
      • Claims Luke was aware of the well-known later census under Quirinius (which provoked Jewish rebellion).
      • Emphasizes the unlikelihood of multiple sources for the same events in ancient history; most are single-source, as with the Gospels.

4. Messianic Prophecy, Motives, and Historical Plausibility

• [15:51–17:53]
  • Mike Bird’s Perspective:
    • The prophecy in Micah about Bethlehem was not central to messianic expectations, so the idea that the story was invented for its sake is doubtful.
      • Quote:
        “There was no need to have Jesus born in Bethlehem…[Micah] was not one of the main messianic texts.”
        – Mike Bird [16:15]
    • Other messianic prophecies were far more prominent (Genesis, Numbers).
  • NT Wright adds:
    • Early Christian readings foreshadow doctrines (e.g., virgin birth, resurrection), but such readings were not conventional among Jews prior to Jesus.

5. Census: Historical Possibility and Practical Examples

• [19:27–21:30]
  • Mike Bird suggests the census could have been “rolling”—not a one-time empire-wide event.
    • Roman fiscal reforms under Augustus are documented and could have required people to register in their ancestral towns, especially for property/ownership reasons.
    • There is some papyrological evidence for such requirements in ancient times.

6. Herod’s Character and the Massacre of the Innocents

• [21:30–22:25]
  • Discusses the plausibility of Herod ordering a massacre, despite lack of external corroboration for the incident in Matthew.
    • Josephus records Herod’s readiness to slaughter political rivals (even his own family).
    • Old Roman joke:
      • NT Wright:
        “It was better to be Herod's pig than his son.” [21:48]
    • The Gospel account fits Herod’s brutal character.

7. Rethinking the Historicity of the Birth Narratives

• [22:26–24:42]
  • Some modern (including German) historians are calling for less skepticism regarding the nativity stories.
  • NT Wright argues debates over the virgin birth and nativity narratives have overshadowed the core of Christian faith—namely, the resurrection.
    • Quote:
      “…if you try to take the resurrection out of the New Testament, there is nothing left, period.”
      – NT Wright [24:13]
    • Overemphasis on these narratives often stems from older liberal/fundamentalist controversies, not from genuine historical inquiry.

8. The Virgin Birth in Christian Doctrine

• [24:42–26:08]
  • Mike Bird clarifies:
    • The “virgin conception” is a biblical doctrine explaining Jesus’ divine sonship, but is not foundational compared to Jesus’ resurrection or proclamation of the kingdom.
      • Quote:
        “The virgin conception is a clarification of Jesus's divine sonship. It's not the basis of divine sonship.”
        – Mike Bird [24:44]
    • Affirms the doctrine but calls for proportional emphasis within Christian theology.

9. Final Reflections and Engagement with Tom Holland

• [25:30–26:11]
  • The hosts appreciate Tom Holland’s stimulating questioning and historical wrestling.
    • Encourage further engagement with Holland’s work (e.g., Dominion, Rubicon), and indicate openness to more listener questions inspired by Holland’s podcast "The Rest is History".

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• NT Wright on Evidence in Ancient History:
  “Be careful with ancient history, cause it doesn't work like that.”
  — [10:53]

• NT Wright on Luke’s Greek in Luke 2:2:
  “…the natural meaning of the Greek is this census was before the time when Quirinius was governor of Syria…”
  — [13:19]

• Mike Bird on Messianic Prophecy and Bethlehem:
  “There was no need to have Jesus born in Bethlehem…[Micah] was not one of the main messianic texts.”
  — [16:15]

• NT Wright on Birth Narratives v. Resurrection:
  “…if you try to take the resurrection out of the New Testament, there is nothing left, period.”
  — [24:13]

• Mike Bird on Virgin Birth Doctrine:
  “The virgin conception is a clarification of Jesus's divine sonship. It's not the basis of divine sonship.”
  — [24:44]

Key Takeaways

• Historical details in the Nativity narratives are hard to either prove or disprove due to scarcity of sources; skepticism should be held with humility.
• The supposed problems with Luke’s census and dating may be less acute in light of the Greek text and historical practices regarding censuses and property claims.
• Key elements of the nativity, while debated, fit within the character of what is known about figures like Herod.
• Theologically, the nativity stories are significant but should not overshadow the central Christian claim of Jesus’s resurrection.
• Engaging critically—and respectfully—with historical criticism (such as Tom Holland's) can enrich faith and understanding, rather than diminish it.

Structure and Flow

• Historical skepticism isn’t final—evidence and readings can and do shift.
• Scriptural details deserve both scrutiny and patience, as new artifacts and interpretations emerge.
• The Christian tradition encompasses a diversity of doctrines, with resurrection at its core; nativity details, while debated, are not central “make-or-break” beliefs.
• The podcast models respectful, rigorous dialogue around difficult questions, inviting further inquiry.

Listeners new to the podcast, or to the historical debates around Jesus’ birth, will find this episode a rich resource for understanding both the scholarly difficulties and the paths available for reasonable faith.