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- [00:01]
Podcast Host - Premier Insight
Before we get into today's episode, I want to invite you on a unique spiritual journey this Advent season. It's called Journey to Bethlehem and It's a free 9 day text message series designed to prepare your heart for Christmas starting on December 17th. Each day leading up to Christmas, you'll receive a short reflective message pointing you to the hope, peace, joy and love found in the coming of Christ. It's completely free and a great way to keep your focus on Jesus this season. Why not sign up today@premierinsight.org resources? That's PremierInsight.org resources. Now here's today's podcast.
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Mike Bird
Well, hello and welcome to the Ask nt Write Anything podcast, the program where we answer your questions about Jesus, the Bible, and the life of faith. I'm Mike Bird from Ridley College and as ever, I'm joined by Tom Wright.
- [02:21]
Tom Wright
From Wickcifall in Oxford.
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Mike Bird
Tom, it's great to be with you as ever. I love all these questions we get. We never cease to be surprised about the breadth, the dimension, I mean the very personal touch in a lot of these questions too.
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Tom Wright
Yep.
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Mike Bird
And this week we've got some great questions on where do dead souls go? Is there like a dead souls waiting room? Will I be perfect in the new creation? And a question about biblical budgeting. Our first question comes from Lisa Zaher in Parker, usa, and she asked this after listening to your podcast on heaven, hell and the Rapture. I have a Question on the same matters. I've always thought of heaven as a place in space, unknown, unseen. The third heaven. And I've always thought of the revelation of the martyred saints and the great multitude of every tribe and nation as being a resurrected group of believers who have died in the past or being retrieved from earth at that time before God will pour out his wrath and all the unbelievers and earth dwellers. But your podcast answers challenged me, and now I do not know where the throne of God is or where God himself resides, along with Jesus and his angels. Where are they? And if there is no rapture to that location, then where are the souls of the believers who have gone on before us? Has it changed since Jesus's resurrection? I mean, is the intermediate place different in the Old Testament than the New Testament? Tom, this seems to be the number one topic we get on this program. We get, like, variations of it every couple of weeks. But the idea of what happens to you when you die? What happens to our loved ones when they pass away, Biblical characters, where did they go? I feel like it's a bit like that TV show, you know, like, where are they now? Like, you know, some. Some movie star in the 1970s, you know, where are they now? So I think this question from Lisa is very much, where are they now? You know, the departed saints, whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Tom, what do you have to say to Lisa?
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Tom Wright
Oh, my goodness, Lisa, I have all sorts of things to say, and let me try and be as clear as I can. I think the first thing to say is that there's been a huge amount of muddled teaching on both sides of the Atlantic, but especially the dispensationalist movement in North America about the rapture, about the Great White Throne, about Armageddon, all sorts of things. And different texts get thrown together by different preachers and teachers and muddled up with this and that and the other. And you're always getting people who are popping up and saying, there we are. There are signs of the end, and they're all now coming true. And that means that Jesus is coming back any minute. And I want to say, look, in the New Testament, Jesus says, nobody knows the day and the hour, not even the Son, only the F. Watch out for people who think that they can give you a chronology of what's going on where. But also behind that, watch out for people who think that you can get a complete cosmology out of the Book of Revelation. You really, really can't. I mean, you've Got the twin reality of heaven and earth. Go back to Genesis 1 kind of sigh of relief. Genesis 1. God created the heavens and the earth. Heavens. The word heavens plural is a plural in the Hebrew. And of course, in Jewish tradition, there are multiple heavens, as though in God's domain there are many, many different layers and levels. When Paul says he got as far as the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12, one possible answer would be, why only the third heaven? There are supposed to be seven. And one of my students, Paula Gooder, wrote a book called why Only the Third Heaven? And so we aren't told about that and where we're not told about something like that. I think trying to speculate and create this kind of mental map of exactly what goes where is probably not gonna be fruitful. And especially in the Book of Revelation, because so much Christian tradition has say taken Revelation 4 and 5, which is a picture of the present heavenly reality, and transposed that into a picture of a future heavenly reality. At the end of one of Charles Wesley's great hymns, he has changed from glory into glory, Till in heaven we take our place Till we cast our crowns before thee Lost in wonder, love and praise. Now, the image of these saints casting their crowns before the throne, that is in Revelation 5. And it's about the present reality of. So Revelation 4 and 5, it's about the present reality of. Of heaven, which is intersecting with our reality on Earth. Already heaven and earth are strangely overlapping, mixing together. And the only way that Revelation can describe that overlapping and interlocking is by giving us this kind of sketchy bits and pieces. Cosmology don't expect that it all joins up together, because it really doesn't. Just like the lion, who is also the Lamb, who has a sword coming out of his mouth, and sundry other bits and pieces. There's a sort of rubric above that which says, do not try this at home. Don't try. Imagine that this all goes together. The main thing to remember is that in Revelation 21 and 22, the end of the book, this is about new heavens and new earth, with God himself and the Lamb and God's people all dwelling there together, and with God's new purposes for the cosmos starting to unfold in ways that we maybe hadn't imagined. And that is something for which the rest of the book prepares, but which, if you're not careful, you can see the word heaven and think, ah, this tells us about the heaven to which I will go when I die, or will I? And really, it's Just not like that. So be careful about that. And then particularly row back to what you find, particularly in Paul, I would say. I mean, naturally I would say that, because I spent a lot of time studying Paul, but that in 1 Corinthians 15, 20, 28, that's a passage I wish all Christians would take very seriously to heart. Jesus has already been raised. He is already Lord of the world. At the moment, those who have died in him are waiting for their resurrection. When God makes his ultimate new creation, then all those who have died in Christ will be raised from the dead, so that God will be all in all. That is the picture that we're given in the New Testament, and it plays out in 1 Thessalonians and so on. Interestingly, this was not a major topic of Jesus teaching, to say the least. He has that little conversation with the Sadducees, but that's because they raised the question about resurrection. But Jesus takes it for granted that there will be a resurrection. And he says some very interesting things which are German to this question about that. In the Pentateuch, the God says to Moses, I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And Jesus says, he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, because all live to him. Now, that doesn't mean that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven, where they will stay forever. It means God is still holding them in life, in his life, ahead of the time when God makes his new creation and raises them and us from the dead. So we have to get this picture of the ultimate new creation with bodily resurrection and then an interim state which the New Testament isn't very interested in. Now, for us, that's frustrating because we go to a funeral, we take a funeral. People want to know, where are they now? Where is he now? Where is she now? And the New Testament really isn't that interested in that question, but insofar as it gives us a clue, because it does not talk about Souls. There are two passages in Revelation one in Revelation 6, one in Revelation 20, where there are souls who are waiting for the new world. Nowhere else is the word soul used to denote those who are in between bodily death and bodily resurrection. Rather, we are told we will be with the Messiah, which is far better. Philippians chapter 1 or in Colossians 3. We have died already in baptism, and our life is hidden with the Messiah in God. Now, I have written in various places with a new book coming out in February 26, exploring the belief that through the Holy Spirit, we are who we will be in the interim state that the Spirit will hold us close to Jesus in the presence and world of the Father until the time when the Spirit raises us from the dead. It seems to me that chronological sequence gives us all we can know, all we need to know. And that to try to speculate about different layers of heaven and where God is and where the throne is and so on really isn't going to do us any good between now and then. And of course, part of the point is, if we're not careful, those speculations about some future this and that distract our attention away from Christian responsibility for the present world. And that's happened big time in many parts of the world where they're so fixated on heaven that they let complete nonsense go on here on earth without challenging it, because really we're off somewhere else. Whereas if you believe in God's new heaven and new earth and new creation, and. And if you believe that that has already been launched in the risen body of Jesus and is being energized through the Spirit, then it really matters that we have a responsibility for creation and for culture and for our whole societal world in the meantime, ahead of the ultimate new creation. So this isn't just speculation about some future state. It actually plays back into how we see Christian responsibility in the present world. Yeah.
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Mike Bird
So we're going to be alive to God, but we're hidden in Christ. In the meantime, just get on with the business of preparing for the kingdom.
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Tom Wright
Yeah. And being. Producing signs of the kingdom in the present.
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Mike Bird
Yep. I think that's good advice. That's good advice. Tom, we've got a second question from Joel Cunnings of Coleman about the perfection of our knowledge in the end state. Okay. Joel asked this. He says, hello, Tom, even with your reputation as a renowned scholar, I've long appreciated your humility in regards to the Scriptures and the limits to what both the authors of the Bible were able to communicate and what we're able to realistically understand about God, his nature, and the kingdom to come. My question is, in the eternal state, do we know if we'll be able to understand everything or just more than we do now? Or will our understanding of God and his kingdom be about the same as it is now? Our bodies will be glorified. Will our minds be as well? I don't know what I've seen or heard much teaching about this, but I am curious as to your thoughts. Thank you. And thank you for your faithfulness. Well, this is a good question, Tom. Like, how much of our knowledge will be transformed? Will we have a godlike knowledge of all things. Will we still be finite in our knowing? Will we be fallible in our knowing? You know, I'm. I mean, what comes to my mind, maybe yours, too, is 1 Corinthians 13.
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Tom Wright
Where, you know, as you were talking.
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Mike Bird
Yeah, exactly. We think alike, Tom. That's good. We think alike. Okay. Thinking of 1 Corinthians 13, where he talks about knowing in part and seeing in part, but then we will know fully and finally, all good things, Tom. That's what comes to my mind. What comes to yours when it comes to the depth and perfection of our knowledge in the new creation.
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Tom Wright
Yeah. I mean, knowledge is a funny thing. We think almost transactionally in terms of, do you know this? Do you know that? Do you know that two plus two equals four, etc. In the Bible, knowledge goes through that and out into a larger, more mysterious world about the knowledge of people and the knowledge of God. And there's that remarkable passage in 1 Corinthians 8 where Paul says, actually, what matters is not so much your knowledge of God, but God's knowledge of you. And ultimately knowledge there is swallowed up by the idea of love. And ultimately love includes knowledge, but transcends it, because knowledge could be a bit sort of factual and clunky, which, I mean, we need clunky facts. That's part of what life is all about. But the knowledge which Paul is talking about is a celebration, is a delight, is a relishing of what we see. And I know that, you know, many scientists, when they're working on, say, some splendid thing in nuclear physics or whatever, they are delighted by the beauty of creation that they see. That's why quite a lot of physicists over the years have been Christians, because they are just awed by the structure of the universe and searching after or finding the God who is the author of this. So when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8, we know that we all have knowledge. And he says, well, knowledge puffs you up, but love builds you up. And if you think you know something, you probably don't yet know as much as you should. But. But if somebody loves God, they are known by God. So that sense of God knowing us as the primary thing and all knowledge that we might have being really part of our response to God's knowing of us. And then that becomes a relationship of love. And in that context, then of course, we move forward to 1 Corinthians 13, which we both instinctively went to. If there is knowledge, well, knowledge as it is will vanish away because we know in part at the moment and when we know the whole thing. What does that mean? Well, I think the analogy of the physical resurrection may help that we don't perhaps think often enough about what it will mean to have transformed physicality like Jesus transformed physicality. I mean, there is this confusion in the resurrection narratives where Jesus comes and goes through locked doors and he's come out of the tomb and he appears and disappears, but he can break bread and he can eat broiled fish and he can converse with the disciples and have meals with them and so on, and yet then he now is resident in heaven, not a long way up in the sky, but in the heavenly dimension of present reality. Now, if that's true about Jesus risen body, and it will be true whatever that means of our risen body, then it seems to me that our minds will likewise be transformed to be able not only to know all sorts of things, but to relish that knowledge and to feel it as a gift from God the Creator. Now, does that mean that you and I will be able to speak, I don't know, fluent Hindustani in the new creation? That's probably not the point. For me, the illustrations that come to mind are more musical that when I'm listening to a wonderful piece of music and understanding it in a measure, I can see how these harmonies are working and how this fugue is going to play out. We were just in an amazing organ recital the other night, so I'm thinking of that sort of thing. Well, maybe in the new creation, when there is music, it will be so transcendent, so extraordinary that we will both relish it as it is and be able to understand everything about it in a way which at the moment, we simply can't do. Our minds are incapable of it. But so I think there's every reason to suppose that all the faculties that we have which go to make up who we are as God, reflecting humans in the present, these will be gloriously enhanced. It's possible that those who have developed particular skills and interests and so on in the present life will have those specially enhanced to play some new role within God's new creation. We have no idea what tasks, what roles God will have for us in the new creation. We simply don't know. Our task is to be faithful and obedient in the present and to give to God's glory such gifts and interests and knowledge and talents as we've got, and then to leave it up to God entirely what he wants to do with that, including our minds and our musical Imaginations or whatever in the days to come.
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Mike Bird
Yeah. Tom, I've got one idea here that I've got to run past you. I have a little bit of an interest of the area of autism, the image of God and theology, for a variety of reasons. I once read a paper that went like this. It said, look, people with autism, and it's a spectrum. Everyone's different, of course, but often people with autism have trouble layering different stimuli. So you and I can talk, and we can hear an ambulance in the background. We can hear a dog barking or a radio playing, and our brain will layer it so we can focus on one thing. But for some people with autism, they experience everything. It's just as a big cacophony of noise coming at them from all different directions. And I read this one paper by a lady who said, in the new creation, it's likely we may have a neurological makeup that is perhaps similar to autism in the sense that our minds will be sanctified and renewed so we can constantly absorb all the glory and the goodness of God in the new creation. And she argues that autism may even provide a type of model of what it's like to exist for God in this new creation, where we just take it all in simultaneously, and that's constantly, you know, stimulating our minds with the very things of God. Now, this is very speculative, and it's making a whole bunch of assumptions about autism and the new creation, But I did find that as a very interesting image.
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Tom Wright
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I think so. And I think it's like in dreams sometimes. I'm not an expert on dreams, but what little I've read and what little I've experienced, insofar as one does remember, sometimes in dreams, all sorts of things are going on which don't seem to be different, like your ambulance or your radio, whatever, but which are all somehow part of a larger whole and contributing to one another, so that if there's music playing that is somehow part of what we are doing in company or a game we're playing or whatever, rather than a game over here and a piece of music over there, they sort of become part of the same thing. And it wouldn't surprise me. I mean, there will be many, many, many surprises in the new creation, there's no question about that. But it wouldn't surprise me if that sense of a deeper harmony between presently disparate Illahan experience might well be part of it. And I suspect, actually, as you say, we're all probably somewhere on different spectrums. If we could really know ourselves the way that we really are. And people who we label as autistic are simply further down some spectrums than most of the rest of us. And there are all sorts of ways that we have to cope with that as a society in the present and to help people and love them and value them, et cetera. But having said that, we are in God's hands and God can and does use the different personality types and skills. And then I think, yes, the idea that that will be itself a pointer to some future enhancement, that's perfectly feasible.
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Mike Bird
Yeah. The other thing I think we can say with great confidence is that in the new creation there will be no coffee and everyone will have Australian accents because if it's going to be perfect, I don't know other way that the new heavens and new creation could work. But on that note, we're going to take a break and when we come back we're going to talk about biblical budgeting. Well, we are back and Tom has just reminded me that despite my objections, there probably will be coffee and salted caramel in the the new heavens and the new earth. Two things I'm not terribly keen on. But let's move to a different topic. Victor what Asiak Sorry if I said that wrong. Victor from Groningen in the Netherlands. He says, Dear NT Wright, I enjoy concerts and the occasional drink, but I realized that what I spend in one night could make a big difference for others. Feeding a family in a developing country or helping someone who is struggling. In my church, Jesus spoke often about money and the wealthy and the early church shared everything. How should I budget biblically? I want to enjoy God's creation without over consuming. How much should I give and is it ever enough? Is it Christian to live in a relatively big house while others have so little? Applying scripture to a 21st century Western life feels challenging. Thank you for all you do, Tom. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? What's biblical budgeting for Christians in a fairly affluent society like the west where you and I and Victoria.
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Tom Wright
Yeah, yeah. This is a huge and important question and I feel it as a challenge because I am a modern Westerner living in Britain, in the UK and visiting America particularly from time to time. And though I am not poor by global standards and the sort of people that I get to know in America mostly are not poor by biblical standards, we're not rich either in that there is such a thing as enormous riches. And I see it in the and read about it from time to time and I'm quite glad I'm not there, to be honest, because it looks as though it's a very dangerous and almost blasphemous place to be. But having said that, simply by living in a very ordinary little house in the middle of a city like Oxford, then most people in many parts of what we used to call the Third World, now called the two Thirds World, would look at me and say, you really are one of the rich ones because you've got three bedrooms in your house and a bathroom and a this and a that, and we don't have any of this. And I very much appreciate that. Now there are all sorts of other questions connected with this. Like in the early church, the very early church in Jerusalem, they did sell possessions, but that didn't mean that they were living on the street. There were still plenty of people who had houses and people lived in these houses and they weren't required to give up their houses and as I say, live out on the street or as beggars. They made arrangements to look after one another as family. And when in the early chapters of Acts, we find there's a dispute about the distribution of food to the widows, cause the Aramaic speaking ones and the Greek speaking ones are not being fairly treated. And we don't assume that all these widows, and there must have been quite a few for it to be a problem that they were all camping out in tents somewhere around the temple porticos or whatever. They lived in houses. And then they had to figure out how that worked. And likewise in Acts 11, when there's news of the famine which, the coming famine which reaches Syrian Antioch, the early church there sends help to the people in Jerusalem, cause they know that by then they are poor. Well, they've given up a lot of their possessions. But then when we look at the church in Philippi or Thessalonica or Corinth or Ephesus, we don't find instructions given to people who are living out on the street. We find instructions about, for instance, the way that the Lord's Supper is being commemorated in First Corinthians, where it seems to be in a large house. And as far as we know, the early church met in people's houses. Sometimes that will have meant being squashed into a back room behind a shop or whatever. Sometimes it will have been something a bit more, dare we say, luxurious. You know, Quartus, the city treasurer, he's hosting the church. Presumably he has a house where you can get 30 or 40 people in for a meal. And so I think this was a question in the early church the whole time. And the question was not so much, do I have to give everything up immediately? Is there to be no such thing as wine that makes glad the human heart, et cetera, but rather, who is hurting here, who are in need here? How can we help with what we have now? Different modern Western churches have approached that in different ways. Many, many churches, and I go around speaking in churches, I see this happening. Many churches give sacrificially to send quite serious sums of money to parts of the world where there are real huge. My problem then is that some of those same churches belong to countries that spend zillions on bombs and smart weapons to blow people up, including many people who are already very poor and if not already destitute and who now lose their homes and so on. So there are all sorts of layers of questions here. I think the main thing is that all of us ought to look at our budgets, our domestic budgets, and ought to say, how do we balance this out? I hear very much what's being said about, I like the odd glass of wine. I like to go to the odd concert. These are good things, part of God's good creation. We should celebrate them. But as we find in the New Testament, one of the main things to do with money is to give it away. But Paul doesn't envisage that when people have given it all away, they will then be destitute and have to be thrown back on the hospitality of the church. And he assumes that they must get jobs, work with their hands, et cetera, as he himself was doing. And what would Paul say if we said, but Paul so and so here had an accident last year. They can't work with their hands anymore. Well, okay, they are part of the larger church family. They need to be looked after. And then if we say to Paul, well, there are people a few hundred miles away who are in real dire straits, I think he would say, okay, let's see what we can do, and probably what we can't do to help them. But within a life of prayer and service, one of the passages which I really like here is in Philippians 4, where the Philippians have sent Paul a gift of money. And Paul doesn't see this as a transaction between the Philippians and himself. He sees the Philippians as having given the money to God and God sharing it with Paul. So that that takes the heat off any idea that the Philippians and Paul are kind of locked in a sort of a human bargain. And I think anyone with any money needs to go around that Loop of saying, I need to give to God what I can give to God. And then God, God will share this. And please God, help me to see with whom you want me to share this. And that's an ongoing challenge for all of us, especially those of us in the so called affluent West.
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Mike Bird
Yeah, I mean, this is a question that comes up because I have some students who are basically living just slightly above the poverty line. I have other students who have had successful careers in business and are basically millionaires, at least in assets or income. The thing I always tell them to is nothing wrong with, you know, doing something to relax, whether it's, you know, taking a holiday, having a drink, going to a nice restaurant. But if your indulgences outweigh your generosity, then maybe you've got a problem. And I tell, I tell students, think about how much money you spent on chocolate this year. Does your chocolate, or whether that's like, you know, or movies, you went to some kind of hobby. If that outstrips your generosity, maybe you do have to have a good look at what you spend your money on. And what I try to tell people is, you know, do your best to support your church financially. Try to support a good philanthropic cause like, you know, we have Compassion Australia or World Vision, and then support some sort of parachurch ministry or a missionary, you know, maybe someone from the church Missionary society or even the great people here at Premier Christian Media. I mean, that's a great organization you could support as well. I mean, that's my rule of thumb for dealing with this question.
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Tom Wright
Yeah, and I think as well, there are quite serious difficulties when we look at one another, we don't actually know, just as when you look out at a congregation, if you're ministering to them, behind every face there is some secret sorrow and we have to be sensitive to that. But likewise, behind every person who just looks ordinary in the pew, there are probably serious financial anxieties about a handicapped child or grandchild, about somebody who they live next door to, who is really in bad shape and who they are supporting. But we don't see that it's invisible to us. So it's easy for us then to judge and imagine, oh, why aren't they doing such and such. But they actually may well be. But it then does bounce back on each of us, as you say, to examine what the possibilities are, what the outgoings are, what the income is. And ultimately, I think those two amazing chapters in 2 Corinthians, chapters 8 and 9, where Paul is talking about, about money. Paul, I think would say, look, God is the generous God, and if you want to experience God's generosity, why don't you start being generous yourself? And Malachi, chapter three, a very striking passage about bring the full tithes into the storehouse and then I will open the windows of heaven and pour out such a blessing, you'll be amazed by it. In other words, if you believe in a generous God, act generously yourself and see what generosity God will give to you. But if you're clinging and clutching and saying, no, I can't give anything away, then expect that God may say the same to you. And that's quite a serious challenge.
- [35:04]
Mike Bird
Yeah. Well, on that note, I think we'll call it a day. Thank you for everyone who sent in your questions. In our next episode, we're going to look at Is Christianity bad for the world? What is the coming of the Son of Man? And why isn't Israel saved yet? But until that time, if you're craving a little bit of Ask NT Write anything in your life. Remember, you can binge watch shows on the premier YouTube channel, you can check out our back catalog, and you can find more than enough content to keep you going in the interim. And until then, I'm Mike Bird.
- [35:44]
Tom Wright
And I'm Tom Wright and we look.
- [35:46]
Mike Bird
Forward to seeing you on the next episode of Ask NT Wright Anything.
- [36:15]
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