Ask NT Wright Anything – "Where Do We Go When We Die?"

Podcast: Ask NT Wright Anything
Host: Mike Bird (Premier Unbelievable)
Guest: NT (Tom) Wright
Date: November 16, 2025

Overview

This episode tackles perennial and deeply personal questions about the afterlife: Where do we go when we die? Is there an intermediate state? What doctrinal misunderstandings exist around 'heaven', 'the rapture', and resurrection? What will perfection and knowledge look like in the new creation? NT Wright, interviewed by Mike Bird, explores the biblical view of death, the interim state, resurrection, and Christian stewardship in daily life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Where Are the Dead Now? (02:36–13:06)

Question: Where are those who have died (Old Testament and New), and what does the Bible say about the intermediate state? (from Lisa in Parker, USA)

• NT Wright’s Main Response (04:37):

  • There’s much muddled teaching (especially from dispensationalist traditions) around the rapture, Armageddon, and cosmology (04:37).
  • The New Testament does NOT provide a neat cosmological map of heaven, with layered “heavens” or a specific “souls’ waiting room.”
  • Jewish tradition references “multiple heavens” (cf. Paul’s mention of the "third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12), but Scripture does not offer a full systematization.
  • Revelation 4–5 is depicting a present heavenly reality, overlapping with earth, not a far-off future or a roadmap to the afterlife. The book uses symbolic images that shouldn’t be pressed into literal cosmology (06:30).
  • The focus of the biblical story is on new creation: “In Revelation 21 and 22…this is about new heavens and new earth, with God himself and the Lamb and God’s people all dwelling there together, and with God’s new purposes for the cosmos starting to unfold.” (08:05)

• Bodily Resurrection — Not Escapist “Heaven” (09:40):

  • Paul (especially 1 Corinthians 15:20–28) stresses the sequence:
    1. Christ's resurrection as the firstfruit;
    2. The dead in Christ await bodily resurrection at the renewal of all things;
    3. Then God is “all in all.”
  • The interim state (between death and final resurrection) is not the New Testament’s main concern. People often want to know “where are they now,” but the NT only hints at it.
  • Revelation 6 & 20 mention “souls” waiting for the new world, but do not elaborate much.

• Key Quote:

  “We have to get this picture of the ultimate new creation with bodily resurrection, and then an interim state which the New Testament isn’t very interested in.… We will be with the Messiah, which is far better… Philippians chapter 1…Colossians 3: we have died already in baptism, and our life is hidden with the Messiah in God.”
  — NT Wright (11:08)

• Pastoral Application:

  • Over-speculating about “where exactly our loved ones are” can detract from Christian responsibilities in the here and now. The ultimate hope is bodily resurrection and new creation, not disembodied souls in a distant heaven (12:45).
  • Fixation on “heaven” has sometimes allowed Christians to ignore God’s call to stewardship and justice on earth.

Segment Summary (13:06)

Mike Bird sums up:

“So we're going to be alive to God, but we're hidden in Christ. In the meantime, just get on with the business of preparing for the kingdom.”
— Mike Bird (13:06)

2. Will We Be Perfect in Knowledge in the Age to Come? (13:22–20:25)

Question: Will we fully know everything, or remain finite in knowledge in the eternal state? (from Joel Cunnings, Coleman)

• Knowledge as Love and Relationship (15:14):

  • Details from 1 Corinthians 8 and 13: Here, “knowledge” is less about facts, more about relationship, especially being “known by God.”
  • “Love includes knowledge, but transcends it…”
  • Growth in knowledge is imagined not just as accumulation, but as deeper delight and celebration—like enjoying music or the beauty of creation.
  • The analogy: Just as resurrected bodies will be transformed, so will our minds.

• Key Quote:

  “If that's true about Jesus’ risen body, and it will be true—whatever that means—of our risen body, then it seems to me that our minds will likewise be transformed to be able not only to know all sorts of things, but to relish that knowledge and to feel it as a gift from God.”
  — NT Wright (18:54)

• Practical Implication:

  • Talents, skills, and interests developed now may be gloriously enhanced in God’s new world, though exact details are mystery (19:35).
  • Our job is to be faithful now; God will determine the uses of our gifts in eternity.

3. Speculative Models of New Creation–Knowledge & Neurology (20:25–23:47)

• Autism and the Experience of God's Glory (20:25):

  • Mike Bird relays a speculative analogy: Some research on autism suggests that some on the spectrum process all sensory inputs equally, rather than focusing selectively.
  • In the new creation, it is imagined, perhaps all will experience the glory and goodness of God simultaneously and without distraction—a sort of holy “overwhelm” that’s full of joy rather than confusion.
  • Tom Wright compares this to the integrative experience of dreams.

• Key Quote:

  “There will be many, many surprises in the new creation, there’s no question about that.… The idea that [different personality types] will be itself a pointer to some future enhancement, that’s perfectly feasible.”
  — NT Wright (23:25)

4. Biblical Budgeting and Christian Wealth (23:47–35:04)

Question: How should Christians in affluent societies budget biblically and ethically? (from Victor, Netherlands)

• Wealth in Early Christianity (25:30):

  • Early believers sold possessions, shared resources—but did not take vows of destitution.
  • New Testament churches often met in the homes of generous (but not necessarily lavishly wealthy) hosts.

• A Principle of Generosity (25:30–31:54):

  • Celebrating God’s good gifts (like concerts, food, wine) is appropriate, but always balanced by generosity towards those in need.
  • Many churches give sacrificially, but systemic issues (e.g., national budgets spent on armaments vs. aid) show the complexity of the issue.

• Spiritual Guidance:

  • Each person/family should prayerfully examine their own budget: Are generosity and responsibility balanced with enjoyment?
  • Support for the local church, global needs, and ministry is encouraged.
  • Rule of thumb (Mike Bird, 31:54):

    “If your indulgences outweigh your generosity, then maybe you’ve got a problem.”

• Key Quote:

  “Anyone with any money needs to go around that loop of saying, ‘I need to give to God what I can give to God. And then God, help me to see with whom you want me to share this.’ And that’s an ongoing challenge for all of us, especially those of us in the so-called affluent West.”
  — NT Wright (30:40)

Scriptural Foundations:

• Philippians 4: Gifts given to Paul are seen as gifts given to God, who shares them as needed.
• 2 Corinthians 8–9, Malachi 3: Generosity begets generosity: “If you want to experience God's generosity, why don't you start being generous yourself?” (33:17)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Misreadings of Revelation:

  “There’s a sort of rubric above [Revelation] which says: Do not try this at home. Don’t try [to] imagine that this all goes together.…”
  — NT Wright (06:50)

• On the Distraction of Speculating About Heaven:

  “…If we're not careful, those speculations about some future this and that distract our attention away from Christian responsibility for the present world.”
  — NT Wright (12:45)

• On Knowing and Being Known:

  “If somebody loves God, they are known by God. So that sense of God knowing us as the primary thing and all knowledge that we might have being really part of our response to God’s knowing of us.”
  — NT Wright (16:02)

• Mike Bird’s Light-Hearted Summary:

  “In the new creation there will be no coffee and everyone will have Australian accents because, if it's going to be perfect, I don't know other way that the new heavens and new creation could work.”
  — Mike Bird (23:47)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:36 – Listener’s Question: Where are the dead now?
• 04:37 – NT Wright on muddled end-times teaching and what the Bible actually says
• 08:05 – Revelation’s visions and their symbolic intent
• 09:40 – Paul on the order: resurrection, waiting, new creation
• 11:08 – Interim state and being “hidden in Christ”
• 13:06 – Mike’s practical summary about focusing on God’s kingdom
• 14:48 – Question: Will we have perfect knowledge?
• 15:14 – Wright on biblical “knowledge” as love and relationality
• 18:54 – Transformed bodies and minds
• 20:25 – Mike's autism analogy for the experience of the new creation
• 23:47 – Beginning of biblical budgeting question
• 25:30 – Wright’s principles on Christian wealth and sharing
• 31:54 – Mike’s guidance on generosity vs. indulgence
• 33:17 – Wright on Malachi, 2 Corinthians, and the “loop” of generosity

Final Thoughts

The episode offers thoughtful, biblically grounded, and sometimes witty answers to life’s “last questions”—asserting our hope is NOT in a disembodied heaven, but in the bodily resurrection and God’s new creation. Speculation about “where the dead are” or “how perfect we’ll be” is kept in check by a pastoral focus: live faithfully now, exercise generosity, and trust God’s ultimate surprises.