Angelica Nwandu Survived the Unthinkable, Then Built The Shade Room

Summary

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Aspire with Emma Grede – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Angelica Nwandu Survived the Unthinkable, Then Built The Shade Room
Podcast: Aspire with Emma Grede | Audacy
Air Date: February 3, 2026
Host: Emma Grede
Guest: Angelica Nwandu, Founder of The Shade Room

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Overview

This episode features a candid and inspiring conversation between Emma Grede and Angelica Nwandu, the founder and CEO of The Shade Room, a pioneering digital media platform reshaping celebrity news and online culture. Angelica details her incredible trajectory—from surviving childhood trauma and growing up in foster care to disrupting the media industry with a media company defined by agility, innovation, and a deep connection to its audience. The interview delves into industry insights, business strategy, personal challenges, and Angelica’s evolving vision for legacy and impact.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Business Model of The Shade Room

• Nimbleness & Lean Operations:
  • Angelica credits The Shade Room’s success to its small, nimble team (40 employees) and low overhead, contrasting it with struggling legacy media giants.
  • “We've been able to be nimble. We've been able to be very lean.” (Angelica, 04:34)
• Community-Driven Content:
  • TSR (“The Shade Room”) is shaped by its audience, nicknamed “the roommates,” who submit thousands of daily news tips. Editorial decisions are guided by the audience’s preferences.
  • “We get our news from the people... and they don't care where else they see it at. They want to discuss it on the Shade Room.” (Angelica, 05:09)
  • Example: They stopped posting about bankruptcies after community feedback. (05:43)
• Disrupting Legacy Media:
  • TSR entered as audiences gravitated from websites to social feeds, updating content “hour after hour, 24/7,” fundamentally changing the celeb news cycle.
  • “We shifted the news cycle, and now it's like constant updates.” (Angelica, 06:44)
• Impact and Growth:
  • Within weeks of launching in 2014, TSR rapidly gained followers thanks to its interactive, grassroots approach, prompting organic viral growth (17:44).
  • The brand monetized early by selling ads to small businesses, later attracting blue-chip clients as it gained legitimacy. (22:36–30:33)

2. Personal Story & Drive

• Trauma & Adaptability:
  • Angelica’s mother was murdered by her father at age 6; she and her siblings entered foster care, moving through drastically different environments.
  • “Growing up in foster care taught Angelica how to adapt to people, to places, to uncertainty. Those instincts became her superpower.” (00:10)
  • She learned adaptability as a survival mechanism: “Because I had to be palatable for each home to stay there.” (Angelica, 11:57)
• From Aspirations to Action:
  • Angelica’s education in accounting (influenced by Nigerian parental expectations) and a failed fashion venture led to screenwriting.
  • A pivotal trip to Sundance for a semi-autobiographical script boosted her confidence, catalyzing the launch of TSR.
  • “I thought I was gonna be big… and a couple months later, I started The Shade Room.” (Angelica, 14:34)

3. Entrepreneurial Growth and Philosophy

• Experimentation & Childlike Mindset:
  • Angelica encourages “trying things like a child”—being unafraid to experiment, refining direction through action, not just planning.
  • “I was moving like a child at that time, you know?... Sometimes we need to try things and stumble upon what we really are.” (Angelica, 18:58, 21:21)
• Critical Business Decisions:
  • Her first funding came with advice: build profitability before taking more investments. She later bought back equity to regain more ownership—a move driven by both cultural pressures and a desire for control.
  • “I had to hire people that could make the business money. So first it was sales... then I hired journalists.” (Angelica, 23:11–24:18)
• Resilience:
  • After being temporarily banned by Instagram, TSR leveraged the publicity, accelerating follower growth and teaching the importance of not relying on a single platform.
  • “It was the best thing they ever did for me... [after the ban] we grew even faster.” (Angelica, 25:53–26:35)

4. Evolving Vision & Leadership

• From Gossip to Influence:
  • While The Shade Room is known for “the tea,” Angelica acknowledges the need to balance entertainment with responsibility and positive impact, especially given the platform’s reach among Black adults on Instagram (88%).
  • Major step change came with pivoting to “hard news” during George Floyd’s murder, hiring investigative reporters, and covering politics, culminating in an interview at the White House (44:27–45:00).
• Ethical Boundaries:
  • The “Ten Commandments” policy sets lines TSR won’t cross (e.g., outing celebs’ sexuality, reporting on personal financial distress, sensitively handling death announcements).
  • “There's a level of intrusiveness that we won't go anymore.” (Angelica, 48:30)
• Self-Reflection & Responsibility:
  • Angelica is candid about the emotional toll and ethical dilemmas of media influence:
  • “I always question the impact of what I've built… If I have sadness, it comes from that.” (Angelica, 67:02–67:55)

5. Media Industry Trends & Advice

• The Future of Media:
  • The industry remains volatile; Angelica watches streamers and citizen-journalism and contemplates disruptions beyond current platforms (08:11–08:54).
  • She underscores the importance of independent or cross-platform approaches.
• Investment and Ownership in Black Media:
  • Both Angelica and Emma discuss misconceptions around raising capital and ownership in Black-owned businesses. Angelica is shifting from a “no outside investment” philosophy to a more pragmatic, ambition-driven view, inspired by the need to build a media conglomerate on par with BET or Essence.
  • “If your ambition is beyond that, then you have to do something different.” (Emma, 37:45)
• Leadership Style:
  • Angelica leads with intuition balanced by data and analytics, maintains a “kooky” dreamer mindset, and builds her leadership team with learning and adaptability in mind.
  • “I'm a kooky leader…I had a dream that we should do this and let's do it.” (Angelica, 68:14)
  • She relies heavily on industry peers, advisors, and competitors-turned-mentors (71:47).

6. Challenges, Criticism & Social Impact

• Handling Criticism:
  • Angelica is acutely aware of critiques that TSR “tears down” the Black community, balancing audience demand for “the tea” with her own values and philanthropic efforts (scholarships, giving back to Africa and local communities).
  • “I don't like that [misconception]. I wish that would go away, but I got to do the work, I guess.” (Angelica, 93:34)
  • She acknowledges that Black-owned platforms are scrutinized more than their mainstream counterparts due to a scarcity of representation. (82:30)
  • “There's not enough representation. So...there is heavy scrutiny on each one.” (Angelica, 82:30)
• Growth Beyond Digital:
  • Current and future plans include entering original content production, live events and festivals, and studio ownership—always with a distinctly Shade Room flavor: cheeky, culturally authentic, and community-focused.
  • “I want to pivot into good television, good black content.” (Angelica, 87:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Founding Mentality:
  “Because I had to be palatable for each home to stay there. Literally, if I was too disruptive... I had to leave.” (Angelica, 11:57)

• On Building a Community:
  “Once you give them an identity... they become a community. It’s one thing to have a brand, but when your audience becomes a community, that's a different thing.” (Angelica, 17:44)

• On Market Disruption:
  “We shifted the news cycle, and now it’s like constant updates.” (Angelica, 06:44)

• On Navigating Investment:
  “The $100,000 just made me confident. That’s what I wanted. I wanted confidence and I wanted education.” (Angelica, 23:18)

• On Black Business Ownership:
  “Black audiences are really big on ownership… I wanted to build in a way where I could maintain that.” (Angelica, 35:02)

• On Impact:
  “88% of Black adults on Instagram follow The Shade Room. It's so potent in the community.” (Angelica, 45:00)

• On Editorial Integrity:
  “We do have a 10 commandment rule of things that we won’t touch… There’s a level of intrusiveness that we won’t go anymore.” (Angelica, 48:28)

• On Leadership:
  “I’m a kooky leader, actually. I’m the type that’ll be like, ‘I had a dream that we should do this, so let’s do it.’” (Angelica, 68:14)

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Important Timestamps

• On Community Driven Model: 05:09–05:43
• On Foster Care & Adaptability: 09:28–12:51
• First Steps with The Shade Room: 14:34–17:56
• Audience Influence on Content: 17:56–18:39
• Investment & Ownership Lessons: 23:00–24:19, 34:25–34:59
• Instagram Ban and Rebuild: 25:45–26:35
• Major Brand Partnerships: 30:24–31:21
• Editorial Boundaries (‘Ten Commandments’): 48:15–49:15
• Influence in Politics & Social Change: 44:27–45:21
• Industry Criticism & Community Responsibility: 59:16–60:15, 82:30–84:42
• Vision for the Future (Conferences, Content, Impact): 55:23–57:18, 87:24–88:53
• Memorable Leadership Quote: 68:14
• Rapid Fire Questions (Personal Side): 90:50–93:58

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Conclusion

This conversation provides not only a behind-the-scenes look at what it takes to disrupt and lead in digital media as a Black woman but also thoughtful insight into business agility, self-reflection, and ethical entrepreneurship. Angelica Nwandu’s journey is a testament to the power of resilience, listening to your audience, and the ongoing balancing act between commerce, integrity, and community impact.

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This summary captures the substance and tone of the conversation, allowing both fans and new listeners to appreciate the depth and relevance of Angelica Nwandu’s story and philosophy.

Transcript

[A]

Before Shade room founder Angelica Nwon. One of the most influential media platforms of our generation. Before millions of followers, she was a girl who survived the unimaginable. Growing up in foster care taught Angelica how to adapt to people, to places, to uncertainty. Those instincts became her superpower. Armed with nothing but a laptop and mounting bills, Angelica launched the Shade Room and changed how culture consumes news. Today, the Shade Room doesn't just report news, it shapes it. This is the story behind the woman who turned instinct into influence and influence into impact. What does it mean to live a brave life as a working woman? It's about showing up, staying grounded and having the physical and mental energy to handle the pace of life. And that is one of the reasons to love Ancient and Brave and their pure, potent, powerful supplements. Ancient and Brave has been an iconic wellness brand in the UK for years and now they've launched in the us. It feels like the perfect moment to talk about the two products you can integrate into your daily routine that change the game. They're True Creatine and True Collagen. Called the Power Duo, emerging research explores creatine's role in supporting women's strength, cognitive health and energy. Ancient and Brave's True Creatine plus is the one you need to try. Just load it into your water to support peak performance and vitality, then stack it with their best selling clinically studied True Collagen. A single ingredient collagen sourced from the EU herds. Free from growth hormones and routine antibiotics. This is a daily habit that supports healthy aging, post exercise, recovery and skin. They come in gorgeous jars or on the go sachets for wherever you're off to. Ancient and Brave is a certified B Corp, a member of 1% for the planet. They offer tools that genuinely support and nourish your brain. Backed by scientists and experts, right now Ancient and Brave is giving my listeners an exclusive offer. Head to ancientandbrave.com and use code EMMA for 20% off your first order. That's ancientandbrave.com, code EMMA for 20% off. Give your body a little daily bravery. It adds up. Starting the new year with health and wellness goals can feel overwhelming, but hers makes it manageable. Hers offers doctor developed treatment plans tailored to individual needs, including oral medication kits or GLP1 injectables. Plans come with 24. 7 support, nutrition guidance and tools to track movement, hydration and sleep, allowing progress at a personalized pace. Care is fully online, connecting you with licensed providers who create and adjust plans based on your goals. Hers goes beyond Medication with ongoing guidance, lifestyle tips and consistent support helping you stay on track and feel supported and every step of the way. Plans start at just $69 a month with a 10 month plan paid up front, providing accessible options for a range of budgets. Feel like your best self again? Visit fourhers.com aspire to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's F O R h e r s.com aspire forhers.com Aspire Compound Drug Products are not approved or evaluated for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions. Actual price depends on product and plan purchased. Angelica, I'm so excited to have you here.

[B]

I'm happy to be here.

[A]

I'm so happy to know that. I think it's so interesting because you have done something that so few people have. You've actually built an incredible media business at a time when, you know, legacy media businesses are really fledgling. And so I wanted to ask you what you think in this moment in our culture allows Shade Room to be so successful while others are literally shutting the doors?

[B]

Wow. I would say. I remember one time having a meeting with Summer from buzzfeed. Right. I don't know if she's still there, but she was high up there when I in like 2015, and it was during the time where they were taking a lot of investment money. And I remember she told me she's like, don't take investment money. Right. And I was like, what?

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, she was one of those voices in my ear. I think it's because we. We've been able to be nimble. Like, we've been able to be very lean. I have 40 employees. And so when you're thinking about media companies that have 3,000 employees in one department, journalism. You know what I mean?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I think because we're so nimble, we're able to adapt to the, to the market because the market's crazy right now.

[A]

The market is crazy. But it feels like so many of those traditional and legacy businesses are losing influence while you guys at the Shade Room are only gaining influence all the time. Why do you think that is?

[B]

I think one of the reasons is the community that we've built. We get our news from the people. I think people think that we curate and direct the news, but really it comes from the roommates. It's the tips. We get thousands of tips daily. So we don't.

[A]

No, you don't.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who sifts for the tips?

[B]

My staff. And they Hate me for it. But we get thousands of tips daily, and it's them telling us, this is what we want to see today. Right. And they don't care where else they see it at. They want to discuss it on the Shade Room.

[A]

So it's like community guided in a way. It's like, okay, everything's pointing in this direction. You go with that direction.

[B]

We do. We just. We all we do is moderate. Right. And then we verify the news, but then also we take it down if they don't like it. If they don't like something that we're posting. Like, they told us we don't like when you post bankruptcies. We were like, okay, we'll stop. Like, we listen to them so that they can literally curate the platform. And I think that's different. But also, it was a social media thing. Like, when the Shade Room came about in 2014, it was when people stopped going to WWDOT for news. Like, if I ask you, when's the last time you got news from wwdot? It's been a long time.

[A]

It's been a long time.

[B]

Yeah. And so we came at that perfect moment when people were moving away from the dot com and we were in your feed on social media present and kind of like, feel that disrupted celebrity news. Right. And so that's how you know you're.

[A]

So right about that, because I think there was a time when you would wake up and you'd have, like, your favorites on the favorite bar, or you would literally put something in, and that's consistent. Completely shifted with the way that we scroll for our news and how we get alerts for our news now. So you really built off of what was already happening in the culture.

[B]

In the culture. Yeah. They were leaving. And then also, I don't know if you remember, but back in the day with celebrity news sites, it used to be you check in in the morning, unless it was breaking news. It was just you get your 10 stories in the morning and then you're out. We came in and we were doing it every hour on the hour, 247 in the beginning. You know what I mean? And so it literally shifted the news cycle, and now it's like constant updates. And so that was another thing, as.

[A]

Do you ever see yourself competing with more traditional media?

[B]

Absolutely. I would say TMZ is a competitor for sure. I love Harvey, but I would say TMZ is a competitor because they're a competitor for breaking news in the black culture still. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I would definitely See that?

[A]

I love that you feel like someone who's really tapped in to your world. Right? You mentioned Summer, then you mentioned Harvey. Like, do you know everyone in your world? Have you made it your business to make those people your friends?

[B]

And I don't know about friends. I would love to, but I definitely know everybody. I definitely study every. I study the industry, you know, to see where. Where we are, where we're going. Like, right now, I know that media is on another. It needs another disruption, like, really bad. And everybody's trying to figure out what that is. You know what I mean? So, like, we're all in a crazy place right now where we have to figure out what's the next iteration of what we do.

[A]

And tell me, like, why is that? Why are you looking for what's next?

[B]

Well, because where social media is going. Social media, also, I think it's. With the emergence of streamers now, people are getting their news from streamers. You know what I mean? Like, you can go to Twitch or any platform, and you'll see streamers actually breaking news in real time. Like, you know, and you can't compete with that. Right. It was the same thing when we were doing it on social media, and they couldn't compete on the website. So we see this shift, but also, I think that people. It's. The people are starting to disseminate news themselves. You know what I mean? They'll get it quicker than you. You know what I mean? And so it's like, okay, now what is the shift? Because we can't continue on doing what we're doing. It's just not gonna work. So something has to happen.

[A]

I think it's really interesting, just, like, straight out the gate, understanding how kind of obsessed with your space you are, and then the fact that you're actively looking for, like, what's next and what's around the corner. And that tells me, like, I'm speaking to a real deal founder. Like, I'm talking to someone who knows what they're doing, who's thinking about what they're doing. But I want to kind of go back a little. You were actually a screenwriter. You were born in la, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I just want to understand a little bit about where you came from, your family. Like, give me the background so we can really understand who you are.

[B]

Yeah, so my parents migrated over here in, like, late 80s, right. And my parents.

[A]

From Nigeria.

[B]

From Nigeria. And my parents. My mother was more like a breadwinner, and my father had a harder time, like, establishing himself here. And so in the culture, Nigerian culture, the man is supposed to be the breadwinner, you know, the provider and the leader of the house.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

My mom was, like, loud and proud, you know what I mean? And that caused a lot of issues in their relationship. So it led to my father taking my mother's life when I was six years old, when me and my sisters were in the home. Yeah. And that moment shifted our lives because we went into foster care. And it was in foster care because I know that I could have so many bad things to say about foster care. But then at the same time, I look back and I see all the good things that I learned. I had to live in so many different environments and homes. I lived in Inglewood. You know what I mean? I lived in Bel Air. It was this.

[A]

You did the gambit, like, the full gambit.

[B]

Yeah. It was this rich white woman. It was during the time that Angelina Jolie was adopting those kids. You're like, where am I going? And it was in style. But I thank her because it was her that kind of changed what I thought was possible. Right. Because she. She took us in and we were living in Bel Air like princesses of Bel Air, you know what I mean? But I remember it was at that time that I was like, wow, you could have this. This is possible. And that shifted my mind. And from that point forward, I remember I said, I'm gonna have a house like this. You know what I mean? And so I worked and worked, and then it became possible. But I don't think if I never met her, I wouldn't have seen another kind of life. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's pretty incredible the way you talk about what is true childhood trauma, like, really true childhood trauma, with what happened with your mother. And I'm so incredibly sorry. You've got how many. You're one of five girls, is that right?

[B]

I'm one of five.

[A]

There's five of you total?

[B]

Well, I'm one of five girls, but I have one half sister.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

I just found about a couple years ago, you know, But I have.

[A]

Your dad's still giving you surprises.

[B]

Listen.

[A]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And I guess I wanna ask you. I mean, I think it's really interesting how much you speak about what. In the limited news that's out there about you, by the way, and the limited stories that are out there about you. You speak a lot about adaptability, and I'm guessing that came from this extremely traumatic childhood that you had.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was just talking to my therapist the other Day. And she was like, you have learned to adapt. Because it literally was a survival mechanism. Right. Because I had to be palatable for each home to stay there. Literally, if I was too disruptive or whatever, I would have to leave. And so for me, yes, I've learned to adapt to different personalities, different cultures, different, you know, everything. And so I think that helped me in what I do now because I've always been an observer, and so I would have to observe in the homes that I was in and so that I could adapt.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I think that's what helped me to become, you know, to start this business. Because I was observing. I would observe, you know, celebrities and just how they, like, you know, I was very interested in stories and people's, you know, stories. And so that's why I stumbled here. I didn't think I would ever be here, but, you know.

[A]

And here you are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Amazing. I mean, it's honestly a full credit to you. And so you got a full scholarship to college. That's right, yes. And you studied for and eventually became a screenwriter, I'm guessing.

[B]

Yeah. When I went to college, I was in accounting, which. Oh, my goodness. Like, why did I do that?

[A]

I did that because you're a Nigerian, Good Nigerian girl. That's why.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

[A]

It was like, doctor, lawyer, accountant.

[B]

Please.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

But it was terrible. And I remember my English professor saying, you need to be a writer. And so I graduated with a 2.8 GPA. I barely graduated college, and I went into accounting. I was like, I can't do this. And so I started a fashion line. But I'm not the fashion girl. You know what I mean? I'm not. I wear balls.

[A]

But you were trying. You were like, I'm trying to do something. I'm gonna try things.

[B]

Yes, but I'm a cartoon. I wear the same black every time. And so I. You know. So that failed in six months. Right. It was called Juju's Closet, named after my sister. Very embarrassing. And then it was after that that I wrote a script with Jordana Spero. She was writing a script about a girl whose life was similar to mine. The character's name was Angel.

[A]

And.

[B]

And we submitted it to Sundance and went there. And after that, you couldn't tell me anything. I was like. I was like, I'm gonna be big. I'm gonna be.

[A]

I got three big.

[B]

I was like, you know what I mean? And so after that, I was like, everything I wanna do, I can do and that. And a couple months later, I started The Shade Room. And that's, you know.

[A]

Gimme, gimme. This started the Shade Room. What did you do? Like, tell me, did you have a vision in the beginning? Cause I heard it was a friend that gave you an idea. I wanna really understand the genesis of you going, I'm gonna start posting on Instagram to. I know I've got a business here, and I can feel that there's something that's gonna come out of it.

[B]

So I'm just gonna be completely honest, right? Because I had went to Sundance, I thought I was gonna be big, right? I thought I was gonna be the next, you know, I don't know, Casey Lemons or whatever, right? Shonda Rhimes. But that's not what happened. It was an independent film, and they gave me a $5,000 grant. And so $5,000 in LA does not go far.

[A]

No.

[B]

So I was, you know, broke, and I. Well, they gave me an ultimatum and I had to leave because I. Again, I.

[A]

Were you working at that time?

[B]

I was working as a bookkeeper at Motorcycle performance services for $13 an hour. So I was like, you know, in dire need of income. I was at home all day, and I just was doing nothing but trying to figure out, what am I gonna do next? You know? And I would call my friend who was in law school at the time, and I would be like, did you hear about what happened with. You know. Cause I was so into media. I was on all the. I was always keeping up with media, and she got so tired of me. Tell. She was like, why don't you just start your own site? She was like, this is what you do all day. Just start your own site. And I was like, you're right. And I remember that night I came up with the Shade Room. And don't ask me how I came up with that name, because I don't. It was a joke. All of this was like. Like, it was a joke. It wasn't. It wasn't supposed to be serious, right? So I was like, oh, the Shade Room. I'll call it the Shade Room. And then I just started an Instagram because I didn't know how to create a website, nor did I have the money to do so. Right? And so it was the third day that I knew that this was a business. And it was.

[A]

Because that quickly.

[B]

Yes, that's when I saw the vision. And so I opened Instagram and I created a little logo on some app. You know what I mean? I called it the Shade Room, and I opened Instagram and I started Reporting on what was happening in the celebrity world hour after hour.

[A]

Do you remember your first story? Do you remember the first thing you put out?

[B]

It might have been Real Housewives villain, some type of something, you know, having to do with that. And then, you know, and so I was posting it and I was doing, like, funny, like, quirky captions because I have, like, a funny, quirky, like, personality. Like, my humor is kind of different. And I was doing that. And the first day, I think it was like 300 followers, right? And I was like, what? This is kind of odd. By the third day, it was 3500. And mind you, I'm obsessed now because I'm thinking I'm building something. So literally, I'm obsessed.

[A]

You're watching. You're watching every bit of engagement, every follower, every, like, yes, two way.

[B]

But at this point, it was a different kind of news I was doing. I was just reporting on what was already out there. But then as I started to build this army of people, right, they were like, what is this? It's new. But by the third day, it was 3,500. It was the people that made me know this was a business because they would tell me, well, we're going to. They would start to do things on behalf of the platform. So they would say, we want Chris Brown to step into the shade room, right? And so they would literally bombard his comment section and get his attention, or. You know what I mean? Like, and I was like, you guys are acting like an army. And so I was like, this reminds me of, like, re Navy and, like, Barbs. I was like, I'm gonna give you guys a name. I'm like, I'm gonna call you guys the roommates. And it was then that they. It just spiraled out of control.

[A]

They're like, yeah, we are the roommates. We're ready to go.

[B]

Yes. Cause once you give them an identity to, like, they become a community. It's one thing to have a brand, but when your audience becomes a community, that's a different thing.

[A]

I mean, that's pretty incredible. By the end of the week, you had 10,000 followers or so the story.

[B]

Goes, because Tammy Roman, she's a reality star. She was like, have you guys seen this new thing? What's going on? Cause it was different at the time. And then everybody started following from there. It was just crazy. It was a wrap.

[A]

But you never particularly wanted to be in media, right?

[B]

Absolutely. Honestly, if you would have asked me, I would have never wanted to be in media. I had no dream of ever being in media, that wasn't something I wanted to be. A screenwriter? Yeah.

[A]

And you still felt like that at that time, or were you like, no, I've got something else?

[B]

No, I said, I have something else, and I'm good at this. So I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna push it to the limit. But it was never something. It was never my passion as far as, like, that wasn't where I wanted to go.

[A]

So when you think about people that are thinking about starting something and are like, you know, don't really have their path, haven't really got it figured out, what would you say? What advice do you give to people being someone who was kind of lost, thought they were on one track, it wasn't actually gonna pan out. And so you just kind of found yourself in this position. What do you tell people?

[B]

I would say you need to be free to try things like a child. Because that's. I was moving like a child at that time, you know? And it's so interesting because once you start to build something, you get further along and the childlike mentality starts to go away. I don't know. Do you feel the same way?

[A]

It's so interesting. I. It's different for me, actually, because I feel like I'm one of these people that TR Tries to gather so much information. Like, I like to take risks, but I also do it like, having looked at everything, calculating. Yeah. It's like I gather a lot of information, and then I feel like I can go for something. So it's like I have to do everything with a plan. We were discussing this the other day. Cause my husband's, like, the total opposite. He's just like a go person. I'm gonna go where the feeling goes. Me, I need to gather and look and research and figure it out. And then I'm like, I have enough information. I can go. But I love the idea that you say to people, like, look at it like a baby. Because I do think that there's no perfect time to ever do anything. And sometimes we can procrastinate and overthink our ideas and then do nothing. And I think a lot of people stay in that space of, like, I have an idea, but they do nothing.

[B]

I think that there's something to your method. Right. Because it works. Right. And you do need to be prepared for it. But I think you need to have somebody with you. Probably have somebody with you that's like, go, go, go. You say that all the time.

[A]

Just do.

[B]

Exactly. It has to be that Balance, Right. And I think for me, back then, I was just trying things. I was like, okay, accounting. Okay, maybe not okay. You know, screenwriting. Okay, that works. Then a fashion boutique. You know, I was just trying. I was trying things.

[A]

All the things you were trying. You were throwing things at a wall to see if it sticks. Did you ever imagine that one day you would have a platform whose influence would rival the Newell's eyes?

[B]

No, I didn't. And that's what I mean. It was just. I was like Dora the explorer and I was exploring, and then I stumbled upon something. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you know what? Sometimes we don't know what we're good at.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sometimes, you know? Cause I talk to people all the time and they were like, I wanna do this. And I'm like, but I see this in you. And sometimes if you ask anybody around me, they're like, of course you're doing this. You've been this person, You've been the town crier since, like. You know what I mean? You're fuck, of course. Right. But I didn't see that in myself. And so sometimes we need to, like, try things and stumble upon what we really are. Because sometimes we can't see it.

[A]

You can't see it. It's so true. You really can't see it. So talk to me about, like, the forming of the business. I want to understand. You're at the end of the first week, you've got 10,000 followers. What do you do? And what do the next couple of years look like?

[B]

We got up to like 500,000 followers, right? And at that time, quickly, it was the first six months, right? And then at that time, New York Times picked it up and I met a investor, his name was Bryce Roberts from OATV. And he's like, you have a weekend to accept $100,000. And like, it was a small investment, but he's like, you have a weekend to accept this money and join our program. It was like an investment program where they were taking founders who may not have support and give them knowledge and access to other founders, like the founder of Craigslist or the founder of Indeed and Square. You know what I mean? And so at that time, I didn't have a business. I didn't even have a llc. I just was building this page. I remember I was facing eviction at one point, and I was like, I need to make this, make money. And so I looked at the influencers on social media, and they were charging businesses to, you know, post ads for them. So I said, well, I'm like an influencer, but I don't have a face. You know what I mean? But we have, like, you know, followers. So I remember I just made up a number, $75 per ad, and it was terrible.

[A]

500,000 followers.

[B]

I know. Yeah, it was terrible. But listen, I was able to pay my rent that day, and that's what I needed. And then I was like, okay, maybe I need to hire somebody. So the first person I wanted to hire was a moneymaker because, you know, I needed money.

[A]

You're like, get me my salesperson.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who is here to do ad sales.

[B]

Exactly. So I hired somebody who used to work for Sony. They came over to me and they.

[A]

Were, sorry, did you take the $100,000 from the guy?

[B]

I did, and I didn't even look at the contract, which I would not recommend.

[A]

Did you have to give some equity for that money?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I gave 7% equity for that money. But it was the best thing I ever did.

[A]

I was gonna say, it's not a terrible deal considering where you were in the business. 500,000 followers without a clear path or a strategy forward.

[B]

Right. 100,000 to me, wasn't. I never even spent that money. I gave it back to him. I never even paid him. Okay, so we'll get there. But it was the 100,000 just made me confident. That's what I wanted. I wanted confidence and I wanted education. So that's what I gave the equity for. And so I learned a lot, you know, from him. And he was the one that told me, don't take investment money. Right. Which is the way that I'm going is a very weird way for media. But we could talk about that, you know, more.

[A]

I can't wait. I have so many questions around that piece.

[B]

Yeah, but he said, don't take investment money. He's like, build a business first.

[A]

But this person gave you connections, gave you access, gave you an understanding of the wider media landscape where you were sitting, and was that kind of conduit between you and the rest of the world?

[B]

He basically taught me how to build a business. So he's like, business is profit. If you don't have a profit model, then you don't have a business. You know, it's great that you had.

[A]

Someone to tell you that.

[B]

Yeah. But, I mean, I know a lot of people don't.

[A]

Let me tell you. A lot of people are like, you know what? You create a business, and it's a vanity project, and it's here for your ego, and you can hire lots of people and you can grow, grow, grow. But no, the point of a business is to make a profit.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he wasn't like completely against taking invest money, which is ironic because I had taken invest money, but he was like, I don't want you to take millions before you have a business, before you have a profit model, you know? And so he's like, find out how to make profit in a way that's sustainable and that you can grow and then when necessary, take money. Right? So I took that to heart and I, you know, I started building. I started hiring people that could make the business money. So first it was sales, right? And then once I got burnt out. Cause I did, you know, I couldn't keep doing this. Then I hired people, like journalists to be able to continue to, you know, post on the site so that we could make more money from, like, the website. And we built backwards. We started with Instagram. And I realized, okay, while this was smart to get to disrupt the industry and get our name out there, we have to have a O and O, right? We have to have somewhere to live. And I learned that because Instagram deleted us, okay? Which was the best thing they ever did.

[A]

Which actually was one of the things I was gonna ask you because I thought you deleted your page. Because in the beginning, I remember because I was around a lot of Shade Room obsessed people, and they'd be like, she deleted again. And I was like, I think that, like, I don't understand what happened. So you were actually taken off of Instagram? It wasn't you?

[B]

No, we were the Instagram. I think this was around the 500 right after the New York Times. And I'm like, right after, we just.

[A]

Got the best validation ever.

[B]

Exactly. I remember I was coming off a plane and all of a sudden I look, and everybody's like, shade Rose deleted. But it was the best thing they ever did for me. And the reason why was because we had to start over from one follower and start over again. But everybody loves things that get blacklisted.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

So cnn. Yes. But everybody, people who never knew what the Shade Room was were hearing, what's this thing that Instagram, you know, ban? And that made us grow even faster. We grew. We. It took us the first six months. It took us 500. Six months to get 500. This time, I think it was probably like a month or two or. You know what I mean? Like, it was. It was growing exponentially because everybody was reporting on it.

[A]

But not only that, but I guess what you were able to do is actually build a moat around your business. Because while building on Instagram, you weren't in control of your business because it was just a page on Instagram. Building the site was then going to allow you to create an actual business and a company. And then it could have, you know, various different channels in different places.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It let you go almost go back to the beginning and rethink the way of bringing this to your customers. No, Bringing this to your readers.

[B]

Yeah. We had to become a cross platform brand. Yes. And so now we're on every single platform that exists. We even just started a Twitch. Cause we're like, we have to figure out how to show up on Twitch. Like we're just everywhere. Right. And yeah, because you can't rely on one platform.

[A]

No, you cannot. So tell me how you started to think about. You know, thankfully you had to this great guy that came on board and helped you think through the business. But how are you thinking about revenue, profitability, staffing and. And also, I really want to understand what your vision for the company started to be as. Like, the more that you grew.

[B]

What do you want to say?

[A]

Give me all of it. Well, let's start with the vision piece because I feel like that's so important. Some people have like a very, very clear vision from the outset. Others, it comes to them as they go through. Did you, once you started to get a bit of traction, did you, I can start to disrupt traditional media and I'm gonna be the next ex? Or were you like, I'm in a lane of my own, I'm gonna do my own thing and see what happens.

[B]

I wanted to be in a lane of my own because I couldn't compare it to much. Even though we had competitors, ideally. Cause people, you know, go certain places to get news. I just knew that it was different in the way that we were building it. Right. It was something that hadn't existed before in that way. And so. But I did see, I did have a vision. I had a vision for the impact of the Shade Room. I knew that once I started to see that it was impacting the news cycle and that people were. Instead of just doing your first 10 articles in the morning, they would do it, you know, throughout the day. I was like, oh, this has influence. So I did see us as a leader in this industry or some. I saw us as a site that people were looking at to say, what are they doing? And that's what a lot of people would say, well, can we meet? Can we have coffee? What are you doing? You know, and I remember going to a big, big. They own a huge site and they invited me to Calabasas and then I sat with them and he's like, this is the dumbest business idea I've ever seen. You know, as I'm sitting, you know, mind you, I'm coming. I'm driving from Hawthorne because I'm broke at this time still, but I'm going to Calabasas. And like, this is the dumbest business idea. He's like, you're. You're building a platform on Instagram. Like, they can easily just take you down again. They took you down the first time, you know, and so. So, yeah, the idea was profitability. At first. We started with small business because no big advertiser wanted to advertise on the platform. They're like, what's this Instagram blog? So they didn't take it seriously at first. So we did start with small businesses like your, I don't know, Slim Fit Tee. You know what I mean? Like, we started with that and that worked. And then we started that way. And then Fashion Nova came. So we made a profit how we could in the beginning, right? And so we did build a, you know, good size small business, you know, with that money. And then I said, okay, now it's time to elevate into bigger business deals, right? And that was very hard because we had to break open that ceiling when a lot of brands didn't feel like we were brand safe, you know, they were like, oh, you know, you guys put a Z on the end of that word. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, they just didn't understand it. And then we were trying to take them from traditional media because they were still there. Advertisers were still advertising on traditional media.

[A]

Have you seen that full migration happen? Are you getting, like, much like better advertisers at this point?

[B]

Oh, yeah. We work with, I mean, we work with McDonald's, we work with, I mean, General Motors, everybody.

[A]

The real blue chip, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of the studios for movies come to the Shade Room. If there's a black character in it, they're like, oh, go to the Shade Room. You know, even. We just even had a deal for weapons. Or like, we do branded content with. I mean, we work with so many big brands now. But it took a long time. Like, I had to hire people that I would take people from other BET or like TV one, and I would bring them to the Shade Room and say, you have to evangelize Us in these spaces. We had to go to Cannes and really introduce ourselves. We had to create marketing pitches and sizzles and everything like that to really communicate the impact of the Shade Room. Because that wasn't and felt at first. And so it took a while.

[A]

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[B]

Yes. We've been profitable ever since like 2015. And, and, and continue to be profitable.

[A]

And even with all the growth that you're experiencing? Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Because we stay lean.

[A]

Because you stayed lean.

[B]

Because stay lean. And I think that that's very important. Okay. Double edged sword. Right. I'll just keep it. Be honest. I think I'm frugal. And that's because, you know, I've just been frugal my whole life. So I do, I am lean. But I do think I'm at a place now where it's time to spend. It's time to really spend and invest bigger. And I think that the lean it gets you far. But then at some point you have to really, really invest in the knows the next level.

[A]

I love that you say that because I think there's such a huge misconception that having investment in your business means that you lose all control. And I think you are a really good example of somebody who had a small investor come in. That investor was useful beyond their cash, which I think is the rule of golden rule of taking investment. If it's just about the money, it's never worth it. If an investor comes, they need to bring more than just the money. A set of expertise, a set of experience. Connections that you don't have that can, you know, properly be advantageous to the business. So I think that that's really sensible. But taking investment doesn't mean that you lose control. And I wonder. So you only have one investor at this point? It's just that original one, or have you taken money throughout the.

[B]

Well. So I had him, and then we were on a plan. It was basically. It was like a convertible note, and we were. I was supposed to pay him, like, a percentage of profit over time. I never paid him until one day in 2018, I hit him up. And I'm like, look, I have. Have half a million. I mean, yeah, I said, I have half a million for you. Take this. And I want my equity back. And he's like, really? I'm like, yeah, just take the check. I want my equity back. It was 5x, you know, that I had to pay back. And he said, yes. But he took it from 7% to 0.7%. Right? He's like, just give me 0.7. You know what I mean, for all this. And I'm like, okay, cool. So.

[A]

But that was written into your terms earlier on, that you could do that, or that was something that you just decided?

[B]

We were friends. And I said, that's some friends. I need to take it back. And he was like. He just respected that because.

[A]

Was that out of you needing full control? What were the reasons behind that?

[B]

It wasn't about control. It was about ownership in a different way. It was the culture. It was at a time where we had a music artist who had made a diss song, right? And he was like, this. This person owns.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, it was just, like, really? It was becoming an issue.

[A]

Are you taking your business cues from your. From your scroll? What is happening here?

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

You were like, a story I wrote.

[B]

Got to me because I think that. I think. I think when. Because we service the black community primarily, that they're really big on ownership. Yeah, they're really big on ownership. And I think that I wanted to build in a way where I could maintain that not for. Not that I lost control. Cause I didn't.

[A]

You didn't.

[B]

But to know that it was possible.

[A]

And so right now, do you have other backers and partners?

[B]

No.

[A]

No.

[B]

But.

[A]

But you're thinking about it.

[B]

Okay, Now I'm like, let me think about this. You know what I mean? But that. I mean, for the last 12 years, that was something that I was gung ho about. But now I'm like, okay, let Me, let me just, to be honest, I'm in a place where I'm like, let me think about this.

[A]

Well, I think that you have to, because at a certain point, right, you're playing in a different league now. And in order to be competitive, you need the right cash, you need the right amount of money in your business to be able to play with the big boys. And I understand, because at the end of the day, I think, listen, there's no one who's more about ownership than I am, but there's a difference between ownership and majority ownership. What you want is majority ownership. You want to have full control and the decision making power over what you're doing. And I think that what we need to do is get really smart about what it means to be able to take a little bit of money off the table. Nobody wants to be rich when they're 75, right? It's like they're doing a lot of work. So if you being able to take some money into the business allows you to take some money off the table and you to take the capital in order to grow and to be competitive in the big leagues, then why wouldn't you? And I think there's just, we have to shift that misconception because it's unhelpful. And actually it's not allowing a business like yours that serves the culture to be competitive and hit the big leagues.

[B]

Okay, so this is what I want to ask you because, I mean, you know, we should be switching chairs right now because I have a lot of questions.

[A]

You can ask me any questions that you like.

[B]

My philosophy, I'm here for you. My philosophy for 12 years was like, could you build through partnerships without equity, you know, investment? Do you believe?

[A]

Could you, like through brand partnerships, you mean?

[B]

Or like partnerships like, okay, I partnered with, I don't know, because right now we're working to partner with the big. One of the biggest touring companies to do a festival through partnerships like that.

[A]

I think it heavily depends on your ambition. I look at you and I know nothing about your business plan. And if I were you, I'd be sitting here thinking, I am the next bet. I am the next essence. I'm going to have a TV channel, I'm going to have a book imprint, I'm going to have a podcast network, I'm going to open film studios. I'm going to be like Tyler Perry, like Oprah Winfrey.

[B]

Absolutely. I'm like, you're saying everything I want.

[A]

To do, this is it. In order to do that, you would need to raise money. The point is you look at everyone who's done what you want to do, and each and every single one of them is raised at some point.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

So why would you be the outlier? And also what is bad about like, what happens if you, like, let's just contextualize this for a second. Jeff Bezos owns about 6% of Amazon. He's still the richest motherfucker in the world. Like, who's worrying? Who's worrying where the other 94% went? Do you know what I mean? So it's like we gotta get out of our own way sometimes. It's like to get somewhere you got to give something and it's really, really simple. Again, like, we can't be obsessed with control because 100% of nothing, still nothing. Right, right. So it's like the ambition, it's ambition dependent. If you have a business where you're like, you know What, I've got 40 people, I live in the Valley, I am extremely happy. What I've built, where I'm going and the natural trajectory of that based on the revenue that this business, you know, brings in, is the life that I want to lead. Perfect, fine, amazing. But if your ambition is beyond that, then you have to do something different. Now, do you need to go and raise your $50 million and dilute yourself to like a crazy place? Not necessarily. But if you wanted to raise $5 million or $10 million and keep the majority ownership in the control of your business, absolutely, you should do that.

[B]

I agree with you. Now I have. There's just one caveat. Right. Come. So I do think that that is the smartest thing. And I think so many people, everybody tells me this every day. You need to just like, why are you doing this? Raise money. Right. However, I've seen a lot of media companies, Let me ask you though, in this climate. Climate, A lot of media companies have raised money, but they really don't know what the future of media is. And so a lot of them have gone bankrupt or, you know what I mean? Because it's like they raise money to go in a direction that they're so much uncertainty. Yes. It's like, I wanna raise money, but I wanna know what's next.

[A]

Yes. You know, well, then you raise with the future in mind. Right. Because traditionally you might have been going to a more like minded media company to raise the money, someone who's done what it is you want to do. Whereas, like, what's to say that you wouldn't go and raise money in Silicon Valley and be part of a brand new AI type platform that is the future. Like, do you know what I mean? So to me it's about again, like not all cash is created equal. And you are trying to get an influx of cash and you're trying to see into the future and understand what's happening or what the next steps are in your business. So I would go to those people and figure out if they see something in you and in what you've created that can bolt onto what they're doing and together you go like in the direction that you need to go. Do you know what I mean? I just think there's a lot of ways to, there's a lot of ways to think about investment. And I honestly believe that we get ourselves into such a really kind of like downward spiral when we think that what has happened to everybody else is going to happen to us. It's so much more about the vision, it's so much more about the allocation of capital. Like what do you plan to do with that money? Like, what are your plans? Do you have great plans? And when you put all of those things together and you raise from the right person, what's to say that your journey would be like any of the others that you've seen? Right? You create your own trajectory. Like you came this far.

[B]

That's true. That is true. So this is like you guys are watching, like this is what needs to happen. For sure.

[A]

For sure. I mean, I know so little about your business, which is why we're gonna get back on your business and talk about it more. But I, I definitely don't want to continue the narrative that is so prevalent in, in the culture that giving up anything means giving up everything. It's just not true.

[B]

No, no, I agree with you. I agree with you.

[A]

It's just not true. And I'm kind of like living proof of it.

[B]

Yeah, you know, no, it's for sure. I agree for sure.

[A]

I'm trying to remember where we were in your business trajectory. So at this point you're kind of rethinking things in the business and you're going to have a lot of optionality because, because you guys are, you're out there. What you do is seen by everyone. It's pretty amazing. I saw that there was a little bit of a step change in the way you approached what you cover on the platform. That happened like maybe a couple of years ago and certainly in the last election cycle for the most part. I think if you're someone who doesn't know the platform very well. You think gossip, you think celebrity, and you think, like, stuff that maybe someone else wouldn't cover. So I wanna ask you about. About editorial integrity. I wanna ask you about, like, where, you know, where you draw the line and how you think about the business and what you do. Like, is there such a thing for you guys as a place where this is too low? Like, this low is too low?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I learned that over time. You gotta understand, like, when I started, I was 23, so I was very. I was fresh outta college. So I think I was very immature in the way that I saw influence. And so in the beginning, you know, it was kinda wild, but I had a lawsuit. You know what I mean? I got tapped on. And then after that, I was like.

[A]

You know what, were you dying when that happened?

[B]

No, because I was always prepared for. I'm a very, like, risk averse type of person. You know what I mean? So I was making sure that I had protected the business in a way that if something would happen like that, that I would be able to recover. Right. So we were able to very easily recover. But at the same time, you know, it was during the time that Hulk Hogan was suing. What's that platform? Gawker, I think. Yes. And so it was the worst time. You were like, yeah, it was the worst time to be sued in that way. Right. And I was like, okay, no, especially in Cali. Right. And so after that, I learned. I just was learning lessons. And then also the influence was growing and I was like, yeah, these are real people. Like, they're not avatars. Like, they're real people, real life. And then I was starting to meet the people, you know, and hearing about the impact. And so we definitely started to change. But also I was getting older, and so I was like, gossip is cool, but it's not. There was other interests that I had. Like, I was interested in politics and all different kinds of things. So in 2020, I think it was during the George Floyd, the audience was like, we want you to report on George Floyd and shut down all of the celebrity news. And I think one of the best things that we've done as a brand is we listen to the audience. And so we shut it down. And I'm like, but wait, my staff is not trained to, you know, report on social justice.

[A]

Yeah, they're like, for politics or anything. These are showbiz writers.

[B]

Yeah, these are showbiz writers. Right. But I had to. Then I had to hire investigative reporters and all of that. And then the election came and it was big. And so we had to report on that. And it really opened the door. I'll never forget when Barack Obama stepped into the Shade Room, right? And he was like, I think people started to see, hey, this is a platform that will's influence, but also it's a very important audience that follows. Like, 88% of black adults on Instagram follow the Shade Room. It's very.

[A]

Wow, Is that true? 88%.

[B]

88% of black adults on Instagram follow the Shady room. It's so potent in the community. So I think that that's when political candidates started to say, well, hey, if we want to reach that audience, we go straight here, you know? And so we went to the White House and we actually have an interview that's in the White House archive right now. You know what I mean?

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

We broke open.

[A]

And you have journalists that actually sit in the press room at the White House, right?

[B]

Yes, we have journalists, which I think.

[A]

Would be surprising to a lot of people.

[B]

Yes. Our journal. I hired a journalist from ABC News, a news anchor, to come work for the Shade Room, Justin Carter. He's amazing. And so I think that that gave us so much legitimacy. It also helped us build our company. Right. Because when advertisers started to see that, they're like, oh, no, this isn't the small brand Instagram blog that we thought it was. People are really taking this seriously. And so it was that, that diversification of news that was able to take us to a new stratosphere, I would say.

[A]

So now that the Shade Room has a seat in the White House press room, what do you think the mission becomes and how are you shaping culture and politics?

[B]

So that's an interesting question. I think if you would have asked me that question in 2020, I would have said the mission was to. We wanted to kind of influence our audience to vote or certain.

[A]

You mean, like, reinforce Democratic politics?

[B]

Democratic politics. And the reason why was. Cause I thought my audience were Democrats. I've always been of the belief that I want to reflect. I wanted to be a mirror to culture. That's all I wanted to be. I never had any intentions of, like, influencing culture in one way or the other. I just wanted to be a mirror for them. And so I think when you don't. When you just move off of intuition and you don't actually dig into data and analytics, you start to develop ideas that are not actually true. Right. And so I thought, in 2020, I'm an ide. They're Democrats, so, you know, we should push the Democrat agenda. That's it. And then over time, we did analytics and we realized that a lot of the audience, unbeknownst to them, even have very conservative viewpoints. Like, it was very, like, half and half. And so then I said, okay, now my goal is to step back and just provide information because I don't want to lean one way or the other. Right. But the problem with not leaning one way or the other is that both sides hate you. You know what? I. Both sides hate you now because they don't feel like you're their ally on one side or the other. But really, we just developed a stance of like, I just wanna provide as much information, truthful information to you so that you can come up with your own opinion. And I think that that is necessary, immediate. Right?

[A]

Yeah, it's absolutely. I mean, listen, I'm English, I grew up with the BBC, where it's agenda less. Right. They tell you what happened and there's no entertainment factor. There is no opinion. It's. It just. It is what it is. It's utterly and totally and completely unbiased, or that's the way it's intended to be. So I think that. But I wonder for you where, like, where you have these red lines, where have you created in the culture of your company? Like, we do do this. We don't do this. This is too low. This is. Okay, like, how have you established those kind of goalposts?

[B]

I think the goalposts were established through experience that we had to create what we call the Ten Commandments for the shade room. And so we do have a 10 commandment rule of things that we won't touch. And obviously we don't want.

[A]

Oh, what won't you touch?

[B]

We used to. Okay, there's a lot of girls that want to out players, you know what I mean? Or like celebrities out their sexuality. Right.

[A]

Oh, and so that's a hard line for you guys?

[B]

Yes, because we saw, like, you know, people will really want to self harm.

[A]

Yeah. Unintended consequences.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, unintended consequences. We used to report on, like, bankruptcies and things of that nature. And after some time, like, the audience was like, we really don't. Like, this is. This is too intrusive. You know, people's finances, if they're, you know, so there's certain things that we don't do. We don't report. Like, there's a level of privacy that we, you know. Now if you're out on a boat, on a yacht, In Lake Como, you know what I mean? With your new boot, we're gonna post that, right? But there's a level of. Of intrusiveness that we won't go anymore. You know what I mean?

[A]

Have you ever. Is there a story or something that you've done that you're not proud of?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. There's a couple of stories that I wasn't proud of. I think that media is so hard because it's a balance. I think once you're on the other side of media, you don't humanize the people on the other side. You get what I'm saying? Cause it's a business, right? And so I have to constantly balance that and say, these are humans that I'm reporting on. And. And it's not that they just signed up for celebrity, because there is a responsibility as a celebrity. You sign up for fame, but they're still human, and they still have rights. You know what I mean? And they still have feelings and all of that. And so, like, for instance, I'll give you an example. Reporting on death. One thing I noticed is that, like, in the media, people are so eager to be the first to report on death. Because when you report on that is a big story in, you know, all eyes, Right? But this is somebody's family member, Right? And so that was something that I'm like, you know, we had to change with the audience. I mean, with my staff, I'm like, we don't have to be the first to report on death. Like, let's make sure that the family. Let's talk to the family. Let's make sure that they know first. You know what I mean? This is not about breaking news. Yes, but that is something that is prevalent in media. It's like, everybody wants to be the first, and they'll do it before the family.

[A]

Never even thought about that before, but, yeah, to have that. To be the first.

[B]

Yeah, because of. Because you'll have the exclusive and everybody will source you and then your site. You know what I mean? Like, I think. I mean, come on, when you think of TMZ and, like, Michael Jackson's depth or Colby's depth, these are big stories for them, right?

[A]

Huge.

[B]

Yeah. And so, as. As I would say, as a founder of a media company, you do have to kind of check yourself a little bit. Like, what. What is the impact of what I'm actually doing? And is it what.

[A]

You know, and you decided that there's just certain hard lines that are not worth it?

[B]

Yes, but that also is a business Decision at the same time. Because now. You know what I mean? Like, if you're not.

[A]

If you're not there, you're not there.

[B]

You're not first, you're not first. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So you make a decision. Do you ever get into, like the comments and moderate what's happening in the comments and feel of what's happening?

[B]

We've tried to do that, but I think on our O and O, it's moderated. But when it comes to social media, like, come on. Social media is just like. I mean, they say all kinds of things. You can go in anybody's comment, they could be doing a recipe and it'd be the most positive page. And people are like, oh, you didn't. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter what it is. I think you can't regulate social media. Like, it's just too. I mean, we get millions of comments a month. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? There's no way that we will be able to regulate it, but we try. We put in the word filters and everything like that, that we've tried to even make our content more positive. Like, you know, we have like a half and half. You know what I mean? Like, if it's. If it's getting. If it's too much like, you know, happening in the media, we'll be like, okay, throw some positivity in there, some funny posts. Because we understand that really it's about the energy of what people feel when they leave your site. Yes. If they go there, even if it's all the salacious tea, if they feel really down, you know what I mean? When they leave, then they're not gonna let you.

[A]

They're not coming back.

[B]

They're not gonna come back. Cause over time they'll be like, this makes me feel really bad. You know what I mean? So we try to make laugh and we try to bring, you know, all kinds of things in the. So that it's not this just cesspool.

[A]

Right, Totally.

[B]

But that's over time that we've, you know, started to see that.

[A]

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[B]

Listen, it was everything that you said you were really speaking in my mind. Like I definitely, I want to merge. I came from film so like that's what I really have a passion in. And so I'm like, you know what we are the site that everybody goes to for the new trailers. Like, you know, Jordan Peele releases something they come to Us or whatever weapons was on our every big movie, right? Color Purple, everything, you know, that's happening. So I'm like, our audience loves to watch trailers and see what the next new show is from our site. We need to then get into content and programming, right? So that's definitely something you talked about, the Tyler Perry thing. Well, yeah, like we want to do our own thing. We've helped build like other platforms that started from the ground up and we've seen like a Zeus, you know what I mean, where we were promoting it in the beginning, you know, and all these platforms now it's. Now that's tv. Where they started from the ground up and became. Zeus is such a big company now, right? Competitor with networks, right?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And so I'm like, well, we can be able to start our own, right? So that's definitely something thing. Right now we have some partners. It's not officially out yet, but it will be soon. Some really big partners. We're partnering one of the biggest touring companies so that we could do our own conference. You know, like, we want to get into our own. Like you said, Essence Fest, Complex Con. We need to have another vertical, you know what I mean?

[A]

That is off of digital. Well, especially when you've got such a community that love what you do and want to be together and they should be able to come together and connect. It feels to me like a total no brainer. But how do you gravitate from what it was that you were known for, right? Being very gossipy and being this like salacious place to doing something that feels inherently positive? Because if you're gonna go into a live touring type of concept, how do you take where you are today and bring that to life in a way that feels good to people?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think about, I think it's about not losing the essence, right? So I'm not trying to be Essence Fest. No, I'll never be Essence Fest. Right? What is our version of a conference look like? And it is gonna be a little cheeky. It is gonna, you know what I mean? Like, it's not gonna be. It's not gonna be the same. You know, we have. It's gonna be the celebrities that we report on and like, you know, like think of like, what was it? Bravo Con. How they did, like, yes, like, it.

[A]

Has to be cheeky.

[B]

It's gonna be cheeky. It's gonna be the.

[A]

It doesn't need to be like Jerry Springer. We don't need to throw chairs.

[B]

No, no, we're not throwing chairs or Anything like that, but I get it. But, yeah, it's cheeky.

[A]

It's a little salacious, A little tongue in cheek. You're gonna get some revelations.

[B]

I can see what I mean.

[A]

But.

[B]

But it's the idea that the Shade Room is so negative. Honestly, we're really one of the nicest. I know. Honestly, we're really one of the nicest platforms out there.

[A]

Well, I read that you said, like, I've literally read every article of you. And, you know, and then I went on and I kind of, like, you know, scrolled through, and I was like, meow. She's still there. She's still in salacious lap.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, like, what are you. Like, what do you think? What was the story?

[A]

There's a move on. You know, there's a move on from where it was for sure, four or five years ago. But, you know, it's like, I look at the meat of the thing, right?

[B]

I know, but is it like, I'm.

[A]

Always gonna, you know, like, sell a lot of underwear, and I'm always gonna sell a lot of denim, and then there's all these other adjacencies and things that you do. But it's like, that is that, and that is that, and this is this. And there's a part to me where I'm like, how do you get away from.

[B]

I don't think we should. I don't think we should. I think that, you know, for a while, I've tried to, but then I was like, wait, why? Like, obviously, we need to balance it and be responsible with our influence. But people. People like to know the tea like they do.

[A]

Everyone likes to know the tea. Everyone likes knowing the tea. But I guess my question for you goes down to, like, how do you handle the criticism that says the Shade Room is actually tearing down the very community that it's there to serve? Because it's real criticism, right?

[B]

It is real criticism. And I think that it's criticism that I take very seriously. Right? And I think about that a lot. And then. But also, I think it's not. So we did a focus group, right? And we polled our audience, and we were like, okay, you know, tell us. And a lot of them were saying, yeah, we. You know, some were saying, yeah, we think you tear down the community. But then they were saying, but don't change, right? So it was like a little. They're like, we want the tea. We want this. Right? And we.

[A]

No gossip is part of your DNA. Like, the tea is part of the DNA.

[B]

Exactly. But I think that we. We've done so much behind the scenes, right, to give back to the community. Like, we have six scholarship endowments for African American students. I mean, we're building transitional housing programs and water wells in Nigeria. You know what I mean? We've done so much with the money. 10% of our money goes back to the community. But that's not enough, right? I don't know. Are we tearing down the community? I mean, is TMZ tearing down the community? Is Page Six tearing down in the community? You think so?

[A]

No, I think that this is a very. I'm nodding along to you going, yeah, this is a part of the media, right? And I think that it's for as long as anything. And you could look at, you know, legacy titles like Us Weekly or Star or like any of these things, Gossip, Tea Shade, whatever you want to call it, has been part of what we have, all me included. Love to read forever and ever. I think that social media takes it into an entirely new realm because it can be so pointed towards a person with an app, Da, da da da. And then the comments and the way people have ingested that, like you can ignore a newsstand. It's when we're all living and breathing in social to ignore some of that stuff. And for me, it's been super positive, especially in the last election cycle, to see how you are navigating this shift. And I think it's been very purposeful and I think it's really noticeable. It's a reason that I'm so fascinated and interested in the growth of your platform and what you have the opportunity to build. And I think it's important that the step change comes, right? Because I think there are a lot of people. To your point, 88% of black adults on Instagram are following your platform. Well, with that comes a hell of a lot of responsibility. And I think that it's all in the balance, right? It's all in this beautiful power that you have. And how you choose to use that is ultimately, it's your decision because you're.

[B]

The change has to come, right?

[A]

The change has to come.

[B]

So the shift has to come. And I think that a part of that is by doing something else. You know what I'm saying? I think that we can't just keep doing, establishing new verticals, right? You get what I'm saying? I think that, like, okay, what does content look like for us? What does a conference con look like for us? It has to feel like the shade room, but it has to be different, you know, What I mean, And I think that diversifying the brand in that way is the best way to do it. Because I don't know any other way to do it unless I don't know.

[A]

Any other way to do it. Is there a part of you that can feel trapped by the algorithm? Like, you gotta stay in that land and in that model to be in the mix of what you're doing?

[B]

I feel trapped. I feel like, what's that box that. You know, the clown thing. You know, I really wanna come out of the box. Like, it's so. I'm. I'm bursting at the seams. I want to come out of the box. I want to build a bigger business that is more diverse. I just feel like the shade room can be so much bigger than what it is. You know what I mean? And I don't want to be in this. Honestly. You know what I think? I think celebrity news is getting old to people.

[A]

Do you see yourself as redefining what serious journalism really looks like in your platform?

[B]

I can't say I'm redefining in the sense that. Not what serious journalism look like. I think I'm redefining what the next iteration of journalism looks like, which I think journalism is now becoming something that's more in the people's hands versus people are no longer like trusting big traditional media companies anymore because of. Because of the opinions. Because when you go to Fox, you know you're getting an agenda. Because when you go to cnn, you know you're getting an agenda. So people no longer trust legacy media and traditional journal. They wanted more. They wanted to be more privatized in a sense. You get what I'm saying? And so that's. I would say in that way, yes. You know, but I think it's shifting. I think people are tired of the same old and they want something new. They want independent media. They want citizen journalism. Almost like. Yeah, I mean, that's not a citizen app. You know what I mean? And people are like going.

[A]

That's just. I mean, it's just too much. You can't.

[B]

No, it is too much. But people are enthralled by like, yes, they are getting their new. They get their news from tiktokers that, you know, started. Just opened a page and started like they. They want something different.

[A]

They really want something different.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So talk to me a little bit about you because I'm so fascinated at the lack of news and stories that's out there about you. Has that been purposeful in your own doing?

[B]

I'm an introvert. I'm just an introvert. That's it. I just, like, you know, also, I want to build big businesses from behind the scenes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not that I don't want to be out there, but I just. I want to be known. I want my business to be known. That's what it is.

[A]

I think it's really admirable because I just think for somebody like you, who's clearly very talented when it comes to social and building a brand on social, that you haven't chosen to put yourself more front and center. It's very. It's just interesting at this, in this day and age, in this time.

[B]

But everybody tells me I should because they're like, that's smart. You can, like, build a brand alongside the brand. I do think that people who do that are very smart. I just don't know. It doesn't interest me. I like being behind the scenes, you know, Like, I do. I just. I do. I like going to the supermarket with a bonnet. You know what I mean? Or sweats.

[A]

I think for hundreds and years and decades and however long people have gone and created incredible businesses and we didn't know their name. And there's absolutely no reason that you can't do that now. In fact, I think it's probably the smartest thing to do. There's no reason that you need to be front and center, especially when you have a business like yours where it might not befit you to do that. Right. You wanna be able to do what you're doing and be behind the scenes. I just think it's an interesting choice. Is it a choice that you're happy you made?

[B]

Absolutely every day. Yeah, I'm very happy. Nobody knows who I am. I'd literally go anywhere. Like, the other day, just yesterday, I was at a restaurant and got a. You know, like, nobody knows who I am. And it feels so good. Yeah, I love it.

[A]

Yeah. I really love that you love it. Talk to me about. I wanted to understand, like, the internal dialogue. So when something happens at the Shade Room, and, like, if the backlash ever feels personal, is there ever a time where you're like, oh, like Angelica versus the Shade Room. Is there ever a time when that gets confused?

[B]

It has felt personal. But, you know, I've always felt like a hypocrite, right? Because I would get so angry. Like, what? What? Like. Cause they come up with lies about me too, you know, about my intentions or, you know, something like that. And I'll be like, I can't believe. Believe that. You know, and but then I think about it, and I'm like, this is what I do. Right? I have to accept everything that comes with it, and I have to accept that people have opinions. I built a platform for people to have opinions. So if they. If they have opinions. You know what I'm saying? I just have to tell myself, like, you can't be hypocritical in that way. You built a platform for people to have opinions, no matter how brutally honest they are, and you stand by that, so allow those opinions for yourself. So, I mean, there have been times where celebrities have gotten mad, and I've been posted on, you know, bigger platforms than mine, like, you know what I mean? And it's been crazy, but I have to. I just take it in stride. But it's not easy. Like, I have those nights where I'm, like, crying to sleep.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Cause I wonder, like, I always question the impact of what I've built. You know what I mean? And now I'm like, well, I've built something really big and amazing, and it has opened a lot of doors for me. Not only just companies that come behind the Shade Room, but in the same vein. Right. But also, like, breaking into the White House or even just the. People don't understand that. Like, there's been artists who have been discovered on the Shade Room.

[A]

Yes, no doubt.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, to take the culture and bring it to a mainstream level where you don't have to wait to be on people or. You know what I mean? Or all these things. Like, you can be on this site fairly easy. Right. You know what I mean? And get the same type of exposure, if not more. Right. So that has. But I have to balance that, and I do. I want to say it's like, the only source of sadness.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's the main source of sadness. If I have sadness, it comes from that. You know what I mean?

[A]

Oh, wow. That's deep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So talk to me a little bit about leadership style, because you do have this huge, you know, influence. You got 40 staff. What do you like as a leader? Who is Angelica the leader?

[B]

I'm a kooky leader, actually. I actually think everybody's crazy that has a business. I'm be honest with you. Like, you have to be somewhat crazy. Right. But I'm very kooky. I'm the type that'll be like, I had a dream. I had a dream that we should do this and let's do it. And everybody's like, okay, let's follow her dream. She Had a dream. I'm very like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. But I'm also.

[A]

Because you're an intuitive.

[B]

I'm an intuitive, but that's a problem. I mean, I would say the intuition got me this far, but at this point, like, I need to get into the data and the analytics, and so that's what I've done.

[A]

Like. Well, you need to couple both.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Because I think that, again, as a woman, I really believe that it's such an amazing superpower that more women are attuned to, that we have gut instinct, intuition, whatever you want to call it. I think that you need to use your gut and your intuition because at the end of the day, your gut feeling, your gut intuition is a collective and a collection of everything that you've learned along the way. It's stored memories that are coming back and allowing you to make great decisions. And when you can couple that with the data and the analytics and the experience and other great people around you, like, that's when the magic happens. So I don't want you to get rid of that at all. I feel like you just have to put the two things together. You still need to come in with your dreams. Just go get someone to go check it quickly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Right, right. Is my dream dreaming correctly?

[B]

No, no, no. Yeah. No. My dreams actually have gotten me so far in life as far as, like, decisions I've made and everything. However, now coupling the data with the intuition has shown me sometimes my intuition is wrong in the sense that I may think something that is not true. Right. For instance, we went into politics, but now we're seeing with the data. Oh, they actually probably want you to scale back on politics. You get what I'm saying? Like, that these things, I'm like, okay, this is data. Sometimes overall, you can have intuition, but sometimes data will teach you new things about an audience that you never knew and that. You know what I mean? It's teaching me things about them I didn't know that they like fitness. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't. I wouldn't, you know, or I don't know that they're really car enthusiasts. Like what? I wouldn't have thought that. Right. So these are things that come from me pairing the two. It's like I'm learning things that I didn't know before.

[A]

And who's helping you with leadership and decision making at the sort of highest level of the Shade Room?

[B]

So I've built, like, a executive C suite. You know what I mean? That's helping me. I Have advisors that help me.

[A]

What is your cp?

[B]

I just hired a VP of development. I have a head of revenue, I have a head of content, I have hr, you know, Director of Human resources, I have directors of sales, you know, and things like that. But I. And I'm hired a cbo, by the way. I love cbo.

[A]

I love. And who, who gave you. Who advised you on how to structure the company? Or did you just put that together? That's what you'd seen that, what, you know, advisors.

[B]

I will go to like my advisors and say, like what, what do you think I need? But then also like the director of HR would say that. And then I would hire some people. Like I, I had recently hired a coo. They came in and they were like, I think you need a cbo. You know what I mean? Instead. Right. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a collection. It's a collection of.

[A]

Yeah. Of the expertise that you bring in.

[B]

Of the expertise that I bring in.

[A]

But that, that makes so much sense to me. And then from an advisor point of view. Cause I feel like it's something that founders always. Who do you listen to? Who is around you that you've decided to make part of your council that when you've got a big decision to make, you go and speak to.

[B]

It's a lot of actually people who are in the same industry.

[A]

The competitors.

[B]

Yes, actually, some competitors. Yeah, some competitors. Because they don't see me as a competitor, they see me as a potential partner. You know what I mean? Like, we should partner, you know, but like I know Rich Dennis from essence, I know Dottavio from Revolt tv. You know what I mean? Like we have a convers and we wanna partner with each other in many ways. Yeah, I'll talk to the people who've done it and have done it differently, who've done what I wanna do or who made mistakes that I don't wanna make, you know what I mean? Or whatever. I'll talk to all different kinds of people. But then I'll also talk to people from Silicon Valley like Bryce and you know, investors who will tell me, hey, this is what I think you should do. So it's really like a group of people that are in all kinds of industries that I advise.

[A]

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[B]

Hey Sal, Hank, what's going on?

[A]

We haven't worked a case in years.

[B]

I just bought my car at Carvana.

[A]

And It was so easy.

[B]

2 Think something's up?

[A]

You tell me they got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.

[B]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your Car, Hank.

[A]

Yeah, you're right.

[B]

Case closed.

[A]

Buy your car today on Carvana.

[B]

Delivery fees may apply.

[A]

I want to ask you about money, I guess, like, how do you think about the money? And has your relationship changed with money since you started the business?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

I'm trying to understand, like, because you started this from nothing, right? On your own. And you've only taken a tiny amount of money into the business. So as you become a profitable company and you grow and you have 40 staff, you start to make a little bit of money. What's your relationship to money like?

[B]

It's still frugal with is the problem. So my relationship with money is, I think, because I did study accounting and I was a little bit in accounting, that I'm very like, I'm good with money in the sense that I know how to take money and. And make it grow. Right. And so it's. So we've been able to bootstrap this whole time and our books are clean, you know what I mean? We. We. We never had a red quarter, you know what I mean? So I'll make sure of that. Right.

[A]

You really were an accountant.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we never.

[A]

So you were ticking. But how useful was that as like the background? It was useful for starting the business.

[B]

It was very useful, actually, because it was how we were able to survive. We survived through Covid, you know what I mean? We survived through this media exodus, you.

[A]

Know what I mean?

[B]

Like, you know what I mean? So it was very helpful. But at the same time, I think there needs to be a change. Everything can't be so, you know, like, I need to. What do you mean?

[A]

You're like bean counting? You're like. No, I'm just like, what are you like?

[B]

I'm just making sure that like, before I make an investment, it has to be calculated down to the T. Cause I need to almost know that I'm gonna make my money back. That has to change in the sense that I need to go bring back that childish girl from back then who was just trying things, you know what I mean?

[A]

A little bit of considered risk taking.

[B]

Yeah. I always think you do need to make a calculated risk, but there's no kind of investment, that's for sure.

[A]

Where do you think that comes from?

[B]

I don't wanna go back to the hood where I came from. I think that's where it comes from, which is a bad mindset to have. But I think that happens to a lot of. Come from nothing. Is that you don't wanna go back to nothing. At any point. Right? And so because of that, you're like, I'm gonna be very responsible with, you know, the money and all of that. But I think that you have to gamble. I just think you have to gamble sometimes.

[A]

You do. I wonder, do you see the Shade Room as like a wealth building tool for yourself? Or do you think about it much more in the sense of, like, redistributing power back to like. Or a platform to redistribute the power back. Back in media?

[B]

I see it as a platform to redistribute the power back in media because I think I've made enough to where if I really wanted to go to Thailand and disappear, I can.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But I think that now I wanna build something bigger for the culture. You get what I'm saying? I wanna build something bigger. I'm like, I have the opportunity to do something really big and different, and I wanna do that. And I think again, the reason why I was so frugal was because I was using my own money. Yeah, yeah, true. You know what I mean?

[A]

You have every right to be frugal. How are you measuring success at this point? Is it. Is it influence? Is it revenue? What does that look like?

[B]

I don't think it's followers anymore. I think now it's gonna be expansion. Like, okay, were you able to expand into other verticals? Were you able to establish roots outside of digital media? You know what I mean? Like, were you able to build TSR studios? Right, and then also revenue. Yes, that's always gonna be. Revenue's always gonna be an indicator of success. But then all also impact. Now that's big for me. What's the impact of it? Because you gotta be able to sleep. Even though I know some people that are like, I sleep very well, you know what I mean? In that Cruella Deville outfit, they do not care, right? I care. It affects me. I'm very like, you know, I feel it, you know? So I definitely wanna be able to sleep peacefully at night.

[A]

Damn right.

[B]

And so I wanna make sure that I have an impact that's worthy of reverence is what I'm trying to say.

[A]

You know, That's a great word, reverence. I love that. I mean, obviously you started as a disruptor, but is there a part of you that would like to be one of the legacy media brands?

[B]

No, I don't want to be a legacy media brand. And there's nothing against them. I love them. But I want something different. I want to be a disruptor. That's what I want to disrupt media again and I want to do something completely different. I mean, well, when you say legacy media, I want to be the new legacy media, obviously.

[A]

There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Come on. But when I say.

[A]

I mean I do want to, to be like the new blue chip, like in the way that we think, you know, truthful or not, for a long time. You know, I'm gonna talk about the BBC. Cause it feels like it takes it out of America then, right? It's like, you know, that is. And was an institution that we relied on. You would watch the news at 10, you would watch your programming. And there was some element of like, you were like, if it comes out of this place, then there's a level of integrity to it. There's a level of truthfulness to it. And even when it's just pure integrity entertainment, there's just levels to this shit, you know. And I wonder, like, do you want to be like a blue chip brand name that's like up there in life?

[B]

Yes, 1000%. I want the Shade Room to be. You know how when you hear, when you hear cnn, you never think about when it'll never be? No, you just think CNN is gonna be forever, right? Yeah, that's how I want the Shade Room to be. I want it to be like, oh, the Shade Room is just here to stay. Like it's just never going anywhere. Right? Like that's what I want it to be.

[A]

I feel like that is like where you're headed right now.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Yeah, I do feel like that's where you're headed because I think that there's. There's a clear step change. And listen, I think with all things, there's. Yeah, there's so much out there. There's such a lot of noise. And what you feel has real cut through and that's a very, very difficult thing to get. What you have is a very distinct point of view and a very distinct brand. Like it. Love it, love it. Whatever you think about it. You think about it.

[B]

Yes. And.

[A]

And that's all we can ask for right now. Right? You wanna be memorable and you want people to know that you matter. And when you have those things, how you transition, how you start to reposition yourself, that's up to you. And how good a founder you are and how good. How well you take care of that community. Cause they're listening now. You've gotta figure out what they wanna hear.

[B]

Exactly. And I wanna figure out what they want next even before they know it. That's the hard part. You know what I mean? Like, what do they want next? Cause I know they want something that I feel is. I feel intuitively that they're like the whole landscape. They're like, we need something, a shift. But what they want, that's what I'm working on. Like, what is it that you want, do you think?

[A]

Or do you want the Shade Room to be remembered as entertainment or as a newsroom?

[B]

I want the Shade Room to be known as a media conglomerate.

[A]

Do you think that people criticize the Shade Room more harshly because it's black owned?

[B]

Absolutely. Of course. This happens to every black. And I would say, like, when you look at like a Tyler Perry and how people criticize him, you could have Adam Sandler. And Adam Sandler can make really funny, crazy comedic movies. And nobody cares that he doesn't have an Oscar winning movie. Cause he didn't need to. You know what I mean? But when it's Tyler Perry, it's like, oh, he makes these movies. They have the bad wigs and, you know, whatever. And people are like, yeah, shut him down. Because there's not enough revenue representation. So when you don't have enough of something, the few that make it to that level, you have strict parameters on how they should represent you. So I understand it, right? Because there's not enough. If there were 30, if there were 50 black media companies, they wouldn't care what the Shade Room was doing. There could be. That's why when you look at other communities, like a Page Six or people, nobody cares what they're doing because they have people. They also have cnn and you know what I mean? Like, they have so many. You could go to whatever platform you want to go to, right? But with us, we only have a few. So because of that, there is heavy, there's heavy scrutiny on each one because there's only few representations.

[A]

Do you let that impact your decision making?

[B]

It does influence me. I won't lie. It has an influence on me. But at the same time, again, like, if Tyler Perry let it impact him, he wouldn't be Tyler Perry. I can't become essence. I can't become, you know, Ebony magazine. I just can't do it right. But I take it into consideration for sure. Because like I said, I have to sleep, you know, at night. But I wonder how that looks like for me and for this company and what is the way in which we'll address that in our own fashion. But then I'll also have to really admire what we've built and who we are. Like, there is a Place for us. There's a place for a Sexyy Red, but there's also a place for, I don't know who's, you know, a conscious rapper. You know what I mean? I don't know, like, you know what I mean? You could have Chica and you could have Sexyy Red and you could. You know what I mean? Like, everybody should not be molded into one. One representation. Right. And I think that's the problem. But I understand where it comes from. It's just comes from a scarcity.

[A]

And when you're benchmarking because you spoke so much about the competition and who you look at and other brands, are you looking at just a black owned media or are you looking at a full spectrum of what's out there? Do you benchmark your company against just those in your immediate space?

[B]

No, I look at a full. Yeah. Range of companies for sure. I'll look at buzzfeed, I'll look at. I even look at Page. I'll look at all of them. I'll look at every. You know, I'll even look at different kinds of companies. Like Twitter to me is a competitor. And I know that sounds really weird, but I think Twitter is a competitor because it's a newspaper. You mean X? Oh, X. Yeah, whatever.

[A]

We'll never call it X.

[B]

That's the worst weed band.

[A]

We'll never call it X and we'll never call it meta.

[B]

That's the worst weed band I've ever seen. Nobody. We completely just ain't.

[A]

No, it's still Twitter and Facebook. Shut up.

[B]

But it's a news company. It's a news company. Really? It is a news company.

[A]

Every news global town square.

[B]

It is. Everybody should look at that. Every news company should look at Twitter as a competitor. It is.

[A]

You have. Yes. You have to also. Especially when you start to think about breaking news and giving voice to a community.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, so if you could fast forward let's say 20 years from now and be in your dream position, what does it look like?

[B]

I would have a studio that rivals Hollywood studios. You know what I noticed? Okay. When we talked about like what those next things that the audience wants, I think that we went. There was this era in black culture where we had the Cosbys, we had Moesha, we had so we had so sister, sister, sister, sister. We had so much a different world. It was like the golden era for black content. And. And I think that when flavor of Love came. You know what I mean? Not to say. And I honor that era too. Cause it was amazing. But we entered into, like a reality TV space and we took away those shows, we took away that content and those movies that we used to have. And what was the last one?

[A]

I mean, Blackish, baby. I loved. I loved.

[B]

Yeah, Blackish. Blackish for sure.

[A]

It was cute and familyish and, you.

[B]

Know, Girlfriends, I think that it was.

[A]

That era, you know, we didn't have that in England, so I only watched Girlfriends like four or five years ago when I moved to America, and I was like, what was this? Why did I miss out?

[B]

Yeah, but it really not having Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like, you could see the cultures change with reality TV in the sense that now reality TV evolve. We have to love and hip hop now. Then it evolved to baddies and like, Angelica.

[A]

Angelica. Are you telling me that the Shade Room lady wants to pivot into wholesome Americans, American black programming? Is this what you're saying? Is this what's happening?

[B]

I'm saying I want to pivot into good television, good black content, you know what I mean? Not necessarily go back to like Fresh Prince of Bel Air or anything like that, but really good content, you know what I mean? That is like, thought provoking or, you know, just interesting, you know, And I think people are doing it. Like when you look at Forever on Netflix.

[A]

Totally, totally.

[B]

You saw the vibe. Everybody was. Loved it, you know what I'm saying? Because it gave us a taste of something that we haven't had in so long. I want. I want to make good content, is what I'm trying to say. So that's what I want to do. I also want to have huge festivals, you know what I mean, for the community. That. Because I feel like we've lost so many recipes, like, even like in just in community, period. Like, when's the last family reunion? Like, family reunions are kind of like dead now, you know what I mean? Like, all of the weddings, you know what I mean? All of that. And so. So I'm just saying, like, I want a community presence, you know what I mean? That is consistent year after year. I love how ESSENCE has been doing their thing for the longest, you know what I mean? I love seeing Afro Tech, you know what I mean, be this yearly thing. And so I definitely want to have that. And then, yeah, I want to be the source of news. I think in so many areas, we are not able to be the actual direct source because we just don't have access. And so I want to be that. And so, yeah, in 20 years, I just want to be known for building one of the biggest media companies One of the biggest studios ever.

[A]

Yeah, it's a humble girl. I mean, listen, you got us all hooked. I have no doubt you can do it all over again. I'm really excited to meet you and I think it's really incredible and impressive to hear your story because I knew so little about you and I think, think you are wholly inspiring. It's really impressive what you've been able to build and that you've done it basically all on your own with very, very little outside help. And I'm really excited. I will be here cheering for you at the end of a. At the end of a phone, if you want to phone me and ask me some questions.

[B]

Oh, wait, no, I definitely want. I definitely. We definitely need to change the info.

[A]

I'm here for the questions for all the things, because you have.

[B]

No, honestly, you inspire me. Like, you represent something that, like, wow, not many people get there. You know what I mean? Like, I've seen so many. Like, it almost feels limiting in the. You know what I mean? Like, in the area of the, like, you'll see, like, you have reached a stratosphere that not many people get to go. And so me walking through here and seeing this and like, wow, women are, you know what I mean, at the forefront of this and it's beautiful and it's big and it's like, to me, I'm inspiring. I'm gonna go home and be like, wow, thank you.

[A]

It's very, very kind. And that's why this whole platform is really important. It's really important that what you do and what I do and everything in between is shared so that we can learn from each other and we can put it out there and it's gonna give so many people the ideas and the impetus and the. Just the, like, the knowledge. Right? That's all you need sometimes. You just need to know it's possible and you need to hear a little bit about it so that you can go off and understand that these spaces are there for you too. So couple of rapid fire questions for you. First one is, what's the first thing that you do in the morning?

[B]

Oh, it's bad.

[A]

Oh, it is. Jump straight on your phone and look up what's happening.

[B]

I do. It's so bad. It's so bad. I need to stop and then get on the scale because I'm on a weight loss journey and my. I got the. I got the. It's this TikTok scale that really needs to be banned every time you get on it. What do you mean?

[A]

You have a TikTok scale.

[B]

It's from TikTok. You know, I'm all on TikTok shop, but it needs to be banned because it goes. It turns green when you lose weight and purple when you gain weight. So I'm addicted to it. But those are the top two things I do when I wake up in the morning. It's bad.

[A]

Oh, Lord, no, we've got to change that.

[B]

Can we.

[A]

No, no, no, no. We're. She manifests and meditates in the morning. That's what we're doing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm so glad you were honest. Don't tell me the same shit at night. What is the last thing you do before you go to sleep?

[B]

Oh, I pray.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, that's better.

[A]

It's a better ending to the day than the start. Do you pray for the weight loss?

[B]

Oh, yeah. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she's like. A real prayer.

[A]

A real prayer.

[B]

No, I actually do pray for weight loss sometimes.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough. I think that's very honest. Yes, it's true. What is a book that. That changed your life?

[B]

Ooh, Leadership Pain. It's a weird book because it's a pastor who talks about pastors, but he said, according to him, the hardest roles in the United States. Right. Is a university dean.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

A pastor and a CEO of a hospital.

[A]

Wow. Yes, I can understand. He's probably not wrong.

[B]

Yeah. So. But he talks about leadership pain and, like, leadership. And so from that perspective, and it's really interesting.

[A]

Okay, that's one that we'll check out. Who's the one person you'd never post about and why?

[B]

The one person I never post about.

[A]

You would never post about.

[B]

Ooh, I would never.

[A]

Is there anyone off limits?

[B]

Oh, you mean, like, now? Oh, I don't post Cardi, but that's because she told. I mean, I'm good with her. Like, we just. We just can't get along. Like, our platforms don't jail. So we just don't post Cardi.

[A]

You just. You just don't post Cardi?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we had a conversation. I was just like. Yeah, we. We just decided, like, okay, we won't post you anymore because it's so. It's too hectic. She's loud, you know? Like, she'll, like, she'll go back and, like, you know, it's just. We just. We just, like, we haven't posted her in, like, years.

[A]

Do you feel like you can see, like, did she not want you to post her?

[B]

Yeah, she didn't want us to us to post her, but we decided not to post her as well because we were just like, it's. It's better like this. You know what I mean? Less headache.

[A]

Respectful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Fair enough. What's one misconception about the Shade Room you wish would go away forever?

[B]

That we tear down the community. I don't like that. I don't like that. I wish that would go away, but I got to do the work, I guess, you know, fair.

[A]

What's something that you valued when you were starting the Shade Room that you no longer value?

[B]

Hmm? Being first. I still want to be first, but. But not in every category.

[A]

I have a feeling you learned the hard way.

[B]

I did. I did.

[A]

Fair enough. As long as you learn, that's all that matters. Babe, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

[B]

Thank you, babe.

[A]

If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with few a friend who'd be so grateful? Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese, Dennis Asha Saluda, Lauren Legrasso and Jenna Weiss Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Paluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and wme. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meikol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G r E D e. That's Aspire A S P I r E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emagreed me.