Aspire Insights: How to Speak So People Will Listen (with Communication Expert Jefferson Fisher)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Aspire Insights: How to Speak So People Will Listen (with Communication Expert Jefferson Fisher)

Episode Information:

• Title: Aspire Insights: How to Speak So People Will Listen
• Host: Emma Grede | Audacy
• Guest: Jefferson Fisher, Trial Lawyer and Communication Expert
• Release Date: July 1, 2025

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Introduction to Jefferson Fisher

In this insightful episode of Aspire with Emma Grede, host Emma Grede welcomes Jefferson Fisher, a renowned trial lawyer and communication expert. Jefferson discusses his New York Times bestseller, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More, which offers a transformative framework for enhancing personal and professional relationships through effective communication.

First Impressions and the Art of Warmth ([03:08] – [05:06])

Emma starts the conversation by emphasizing the importance of first impressions, a topic Jefferson wholeheartedly agrees with. He explains that making someone feel warm and wanted quickly establishes a positive first impression. Jefferson states:

"If you want to have a very good first impression, make sure you're smiling as much as you can and the more you ask about them, the better it's going to go." ([03:55])

He highlights the significance of open-ended questions over closed ones to foster meaningful connections.

Calmness and Eye Contact in Communication ([04:07] – [05:54])

Jefferson delves into the role of calmness in communication, explaining that a calm demeanor provides a sense of security and control:

"The calmness gives sense of security... There's always another end to it." ([04:07])

Emma complements this by noting Jefferson’s excellent eye contact, to which he responds with practical tips on maintaining natural eye contact without making it uncomfortable:

"As long as I catch your eyes at the end of what I say, it feels as if we've had eye contact the whole time." ([05:06])

The Underrated Value of Small Talk and Banter ([06:10] – [07:41])

Moving on, Jefferson emphasizes the often-overlooked importance of small talk in building connections. He distinguishes between superficial small talk and meaningful banter, advising to focus on future-oriented questions to elicit more engaging responses:

"What are you excited about this weekend? What are you looking forward to?" ([07:15])

Building Confidence Through Assertive Communication ([07:41] – [10:36])

A pivotal part of the discussion centers on Jefferson’s philosophy that "confidence is not an act, it's an outcome." He elaborates that confidence emerges from taking assertive actions rather than waiting to feel confident beforehand. Key strategies include:

1. Eliminating Over-Apologies: Reducing phrases like "I'm sorry" to avoid diminishing self-worth.
2. Avoiding Undercutting Words: Steering clear of phrases such as "I hate to bother you" to maintain assertiveness.
3. Removing Adverbs: Cutting out filler words like "just" or "literally" to make communication more impactful.

Jefferson advises focusing on one practice at a time to build these habits effectively.

Saying No with Empathy and Respect ([10:36] – [16:09])

Emma brings up the challenge of saying no politely without feeling guilty. Jefferson provides a refreshing approach by suggesting to start with the no, followed by gratitude:

"I can't. I know it's going to be a wonderful time. I hope it's fantastic." ([12:11])

He contrasts this with the traditional "compliment sandwich" method, explaining that leading with the no is more authentic and less burdensome.

Handling Difficult Conversations ([16:09] – [33:25])

Jefferson offers comprehensive strategies for navigating tough conversations, both personal and professional:

• Define the Outcome: Start with the end goal in mind to keep the conversation focused and purposeful.

• Use Frames: Clearly outline what you want to discuss and how you wish to feel after the conversation. For example:

  "I need to talk to you about some comments you made at yesterday's meeting. I want to walk away with an understanding that this won't happen again." ([27:50])

• Assertive Language: Instead of saying "I disagree," opt for "I see things differently," which reduces defensiveness.

• Silence as a Tool: Incorporating brief pauses allows both parties to absorb and reflect on what has been said, often leading to more thoughtful responses.

"Silence is a whole lot more powerful because it's the absence of words, but it's not the absence of communication." ([34:53])

Workplace Disagreements and Conflict Resolution ([25:39] – [35:44])

In professional settings, Jefferson advises using structured frames to manage disagreements effectively. Key techniques include:

• Specify the Topic and Goal: Clearly state what you want to address and the desired outcome.

• Collaborative Language: When presenting an idea, share part of it and invite others to contribute, fostering a sense of ownership and collaboration.

  "I have 20% of an idea, I need your help with the other 80%." ([28:32])

• Handling Insults: Use silence and ask for clarification to defuse tensions without escalating conflicts.

Communication with Children ([35:44] – [53:40])

Jefferson shares heartfelt insights on teaching children effective communication:

• Create a Safe Space: Encourage children to express their feelings without fear of judgment.

• Model Vulnerability: Show children that it's okay to admit struggles and seek support.

"I make sure he tells me what he feels. And he's extremely empathetic in that way." ([50:07])

Emma relates this to her own experience with her children, emphasizing the importance of open and honest communication from a young age.

Email and Text Communication Tips ([43:41] – [46:41])

Jefferson highlights the unique challenges of digital communication, noting that emails and texts are often perceived as negative due to their transactional nature. His advice includes:

• Be Concise: Avoid lengthy paragraphs; keep messages short and to the point.

• Encourage Engagement: Craft messages that invite responses rather than overwhelm the recipient with information.

"Say less. If they want more, they know where to get it." ([44:03])

Vulnerability and Compassion in Communication ([55:38] – [58:23])

Addressing how assertive individuals can incorporate vulnerability, Jefferson suggests starting sentences with admissions like "I'm struggling" to connect on a human level and invite empathy.

"People relate to struggle. They don't relate to perfection." ([55:12])

Rapid-Fire Questions

Towards the end of the episode, Emma and Jefferson engage in a rapid-fire segment, touching on personal habits and aspirations:

• Morning Routine: Jefferson is awakened by his daughter and enjoys the smell of her hair.

• Bedtime Routine: Includes songs, prayer, puzzles, reading, and a cup of chamomile tea.

• Business Aspiration: Jefferson aims to maximize his positive impact through effective communication.

  "A better world begins with a better conversation." ([59:49])

• Personal Aspiration: Strives to be more present with his family amidst chaos.

• Influential Book: The Giving Tree deeply impacted him, reinforcing the value of continual giving.

• Values Evolution: Transitioned from valuing a large social circle to appreciating a smaller, more meaningful group. Now treasures quiet time and personal reflection.

Key Takeaways

1. Transform Arguments into Unraveling Knots: Approach disagreements as opportunities to understand and resolve rather than to win.

   "Don't see an argument as something to win. See it as something to unravel." ([54:04])

2. Learn Through Conversations: Enter interactions with the intent to learn and understand, not merely to prove a point.

   "Have something to learn, not something to prove." ([54:04])

3. Control Your Responses: Recognize that you hold the power to shape conversations through your words and reactions.

   "You control everything about your life simply by what you decide to say next." ([54:04])

Closing Thoughts

Emma and Jefferson conclude the episode by reiterating the profound impact of effective communication on both personal and professional relationships. Jefferson emphasizes that kindness, empathy, and clarity are foundational to being a good communicator.

"You can't be a kind person if you don't use kind words. Simple as that." ([55:12])

Emma encourages listeners to implement these strategies to build stronger, more meaningful connections in all areas of life.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Confidence is not an act, it's an outcome." – Jefferson Fisher ([07:41])
• "Silence is a whole lot more powerful because it's the absence of words, but it's not the absence of communication." – Jefferson Fisher ([34:53])
• "A better world begins with a better conversation." – Jefferson Fisher ([59:49])

Conclusion

This episode of Aspire with Emma Grede offers a treasure trove of practical communication strategies from Jefferson Fisher. From making impactful first impressions and building genuine confidence to handling difficult conversations and fostering open dialogue with children, listeners gain valuable insights to elevate their interpersonal skills and achieve their personal and professional aspirations.

Transcript

[Emma Grede]

Foreign welcome back to the Aspire Podcast. I cannot wait for today's conversation. We're chatting with Jefferson Fisher, a trial lawyer and one of the leading voices on communication and an expert in mastering how we speak. His latest book, the Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More with is a New York Times bestseller. Provides a framework for transforming your life and your relationships by improving your next conversation. Solid communication skills are one of the things that I believe is absolutely necessary to be successful in your life. Whether you're climbing the ladder in your career, building a business, or just trying to make more meaningful connections, perfecting how you can communicate makes all the difference. I don't know about you, but I have serious protein goals and finding protein filled snacks is a challenge when you're always on the go like me. Life moves fast. Work, kids, errands, it never stops. And yet somehow you're supposed to eat well in the middle of all that. That's where great Tasting Bavarian Meats Little Lan Jaeger Snack Sticks come in. They're naturally fermented, slow smoked for bold flavour, packed with 9 grams of protein per serving and they have zero sugar and zero carbs. It's a snack that keeps up with your day. Whether you're racing between meetings, school drop off, or just trying to finish your to do list, take a moment to savor something delicious for you. And did I mention they're portable. Toss a few in your gym bag, your glove box or wherever. Pick up a pack today at your local grocer or stock [e-mail] podcast Bavarian meat snack sticks great taste, zero sugar.

[Jefferson Fisher]

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[Emma Grede]

Welcome to Aspire Jefferson.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Emma Grede]

So happy to have you. Honestly, really happy to have you here today. This is one of my favorite subjects ever, communication and I cannot wait to discuss with you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Me too Emma.

[Emma Grede]

I'm excited so I want to talk to you a little bit about first impressions because it's something that I feel have been obsessed with my whole life. I spent the early part of my career having to cold call a hell of a lot. And I always used to wish that I wasn't over the phone like that I could see people in person because I was like, I'm so good at first impressions. In person on the phone it's much harder. But talk to me a little bit about cause it feels like there's an art to making a good first impression. Do you agree?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I do agree. There's this ability to make somebody feel very warm very quickly. We looked at the people with calm energy. And so when you can make somebody feel warm that is wanted, interested, you're going to have a better first impression. Now that doesn't mean you're going to have to be your best friend forever, but it's just giving them their moment in that time. There's a difference between me saying hi to you, then asking you a question versus me saying hi and then looking for the next person to talk to. You're giving that present moment with them when a lot of times we don't, we don't give that. If you want to have a very good first impression, want to make sure you're smiling as much as you can and the more you ask about them, the better it's going to go. And you don't want to ask close ended questions like did you have a good time? It's just going to have them yes or no. You can't do anything. Open it up beginning with what or a how or a when or a where.

[Emma Grede]

I love that you say calmness because you're incredibly calm. I'm not calm, but I feel like I'm warm. Do you feel like that? What is it about the calmness that like adds to that openness and the ease of the first impression.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's a difference between somebody who comes into, let's say in the business context, who's always almost erratic and very emotional. They're people that you typically can't look to when things go bad and you think of somebody who's kind of the captain of the ship. They're the ones that no matter what the battle is raging. They're the ones that have the composure. So the calmness gives sense of security. There's a reason why you like being at your grandmother's house because everything is slow, everything is calm, everything is, oh, it's gonna be okay. There's always another end to it. Rather than just focusing on the present moment is the worst of all time. So Giving that calm energy is a great way to lead with control.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I love that. And the eye contact, like, it's very. It's very clear to me that you do those two things exceptionally well. It's like you're calm and you have excellent eye contact, which I talk to my kids about all the time. I'm like, say hello, ask a question, have good eye contact. To me, it feels like the absolute basics. But if you don't do that, can you train yourself into it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You can. So a lot of the times with eye contact, for example, if you're always staring at somebody's eyes, especially when you're talking, it can be a little unnerving for some people. So the trick is you can look all over the place if you want, you can start thinking about it. But as long as I catch your eyes at the end of what I say, it feels as if we've had eye contact the whole time. It's a lot easier to get eye contact when somebody else is doing the talking. Much harder when you're the one because you're trying to think of what to say at the same time. So we'll look off to think of our thoughts, but as long as you catch their eyes right at the tail end, they won't notice.

[Emma Grede]

Well, that's a really good tip because it can feel a bit intense. Like having continuous eye contact with someone, especially in a professional situation. Like, you might feel like it's a little bit, like, too much.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

But just catching them at the end, you say, makes them understand that you're listening, like, you're there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it. It can even be a little creepy if you're like, did you have a good time? This party? I really had a great time. Did you have a good time? Do you have a dessert? And, like, all I'm doing is just staring in your eyes. Then you're like, I don't know if I want to talk to this person. But yeah, if you just. You. You end with the eye contact, it's going to make a little bit of a connection in the right way.

[Emma Grede]

How important is small talk for connection? Because when you don't know someone and you're doing that, like, first type of meeting, like, is it important to have, like, good chat? Like, good small talk?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, small talk is severely underrated, I think, when you are able to have that little bit of a banter with someone, even in the small moments.

[Emma Grede]

I love a banter. It's such an English word to say about a banter.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I've been Working on my English.

[Emma Grede]

You've been watching Love island or something?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's exactly what I've been watching. Exactly what I'm watching. To have these little moments where you can lean over to somebody and say something. Now, that's different than making small talk. Let's say if you're at a networking event or anything like that, when it comes to small talk, you want to focus on the things not that happened in the past, but things they're looking forward to. When you can ask questions about the doing instead of the did you have a good weekend? Are you having a good time at this party? That's yes or no. You can't do anything. A lot of times when you ask about the past, people feel the judgment of having to say something exciting, like they need to come up with something good.

[Emma Grede]

Give me an example of that. So you say something that's about what's about to happen.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Versus. So if I were to ask you, do you have a good weekend? Or what'd you do this weekend? A lot of people say, oh, nothing, because they're feeling like I didn't do anything important enough to share. But if you say, what are you excited about this weekend? What are you looking forward to? What are y' all doing this weekend? Then the world is the oyster. Then they can talk about anything that they're excited about, looking forward to. Even if they don't end up doing it, it's giving them something to get excited about.

[Emma Grede]

I really love that. One of the things that I love that you talk about so much is you say, confidence is not an act, it's an outcome. And I honestly love that so much. But will you just. I really want you to explain what it means, because to me, being a confident communicator, I feel like that's been so integral to my life to, like, my business journey. Even in the beginning, you know, when I was starting out, the idea that I could turn up to a new business meeting and confidently, like, take that room. I just would love for you to talk about exactly what you mean by that and also to try and give me, like, some tips if perhaps you're not so confident. Like, how do you get there?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. The idea that most people have in their default is that I need to have confidence before I say it. I'm working up the confidence, the courage to say this. That's not it. It's the opposite. Confidence is what you get after you say the thing. It is the consequence. It is the reward. It is the effect of doing the assertive Thing. So what I teach is confidence is as assertive does. So if I were to just tell you I want you to be, Emma, I need you to be very scared right now. There's no way you could just do that. All right? I'd say I need you to be angry at me.

[Emma Grede]

I could do that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You could probably do that. But it comes from something. So same thing. You're using your assertive voice and being on the other side of it. Saying what you needed to say brings confidence and in turn you then feel more confident to say more assertive things. So my guess is how you feel confident going into something is because you've been there before. It is. There's always that first time for something. But if you want to sound more assertive in any given situation, number one, you want to eliminate the over apologies. That's where you say I'm sorry in every other sentence, where you say, hey, I'm so sorry real quick. Or you need a reply to an email. So sorry, I'm just getting back to you. You missed that text. Heaven forbid you have priorities. You know, heaven forbid you're dealing something with your kids. Whenever you eliminate the over apologies, it's that idea of your self worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can be with someone. Second of all, if you want to have more assertive voice is to stop undercutting your words, as in, I hate to bother you, but. Or I could be wrong about this, or you probably know better than me. Oh, yeah, by the way, nobody thinks if someone says I could be wrong about this, they never think they're wrong.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's just a lead in. But it's you cutting your worth if I say I hate to bother you, but. Well, now we've just. The other person's going to go, oh, you're not bothering me. It's the same thing with this is probably going to be a dumb question. And they go, no, no, no, no. There's no such thing as a dumb question. Oh, really? Is there not? And then all they think is, this is such a dumb question. So anytime you eliminate that from your words, you're not going to need it. The last being the adverbs when you always say just or so or literally, essentially. Have you ever heard this before a conversation, Emma? Somebody goes, so basically.

[Emma Grede]

And I'm feeling actually like less of a confident communicator all of a sudden. But it is. It's so easy to like use those type of words.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They're fluff. Yeah. They're fluff.

[Emma Grede]

They're fluff. They're just additions needed.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And it's just me and you. No problem if we're in just casual conversation. But if you need to be assertive in a meeting, it's best not to lead with the. Actually, so just, I mean, you can hear the difference of, I, I just wanted to check in with you versus the I wanted to check in with you.

[Emma Grede]

What. What is the practice needed to, like, stay in that place, you know, where you don't fall back into these old habits where you can learn that confidence and practice?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, nowadays we have really great accountability partners, one being AI. I mean, there are ways that you can actually, like, I have an AI that people will use to put in their emails or texts, and it eliminates the fluff. Lots of different AIs that do that to help you keep assertive with that. Another would be you have accountability partner who actually, hey, if I say, like, just give me a hand, remind me, cut that out. But it's really the basis of it, Emma, is that you want to have the discipline to just do one thing one at a time. Don't try and take all the tips, change all your communication. Just want to focus on one little thing and apply it. Then stay with.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I love that. I always talk about this idea of no being a complete sentence. I personally, again, don't have a problem saying no, but it can be. It's. To me, it's one of the things that people struggle with the absolute most. Like, it's just so hard. So it can be painful for some people. What do you think about how do you get around? Because again, I have this obsession with always wanting to be polite, not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings. So how do you say no but still have empathy and still have respect for someone?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's say you've invited me to something, which this would never happen, but let's say I need to say no to it. All right. There is a right way and a wrong way. Typically, we begin with the gratitude and we lead in with the no. So we'll say, oh, my goodness, that sounds so wonderful. Thank you so much for inviting me. Oh, my goodness, this is going to be wonderful. But I can't. And we end with the no. And it feels very hesitant. We feel like we have to end with the no. We have to fluff it. Like, you've heard this compliment sandwich.

[Emma Grede]

Absolutely.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's really. Compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and even harder to swallow. It's kind of this idea that we feel we have to make you feel really good before we give the bad news, and in practice, it's the reverse effect. You feel like, okay, why did you. You didn't even mean all the other stuff. Instead, flip it. I want you to begin with the no and then end with the gratitude. So this is me saying, I can't. I know it's going to be a wonderful time. I hope it's fantastic. As long as you say the no first, the easier it is to get out. And you don't have the word but in there. Like, I love you. But if I said, this is a wonderful podcast, Emma, this is great having said that. But. And then, I mean, it just takes a. Takes away from it. So when you start with a no, that's a whole lot better. Now, when it comes to boundaries, you want to eliminate the justifications. That's why we say no is a complete sentence. When you feel like you have to justify everything, then it begins a whole lot harder. And then it starts to live in your own head.

[Emma Grede]

Is it harder to say no when things are really serious? Like when somebody is asking you something that. That maybe you should do or you should. You know, it's like if you have to give to a nonprofit or if there's like a real good reason for you to have to do something, like, it changes things a little bit. Right. There's one thing saying no to a party. There's another thing saying no to perhaps something that you should do and you just don't have time for it. Or do you think it's exactly the same?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think it's the same. You just need to say things a little bit differently. So where if it's just a little coffee invitation, you can say, I can't make it today. Thank you so much. I hope it's a great time. Same thing. But I would just tweak the word instead of the I can't make it. Let's say somebody's trying to ask you for money in some way. It's okay.

[Emma Grede]

That happens. You know who you are.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's okay to say that you can't. It's okay to say that I have made it a priority, or our priority is to give to X causes, or I promise myself, whenever you make promises to yourself, people don't tend to argue with them whenever they say that.

[Emma Grede]

I also think it's about getting comfortable with the consequences. Right. Because some people feel immediately uncomfortable with the consequences. Like, how do you even get to that point where you're Like, I'm fine with that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Once you realize that they're going to live, it's going to be a whole lot better. I mean, when I. If you always have the fear of disappointing people, what you're really doing is feeling their feelings for them. You are trying to say, I am so essential to your well being, I am so critical to you living that you can't possibly bear this bad news I'm going to give you. You're just not believing that they're emotionally resilient. And so when you can say, I'm telling you this because I'm your friend, don't do that. I mean, there's a whole lot difference there. And being able to just live with the idea of they're going to be.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, they're gonna be okay. Also that PCs, that they're not emotionally resilient or they just don't have other options. Because the reality is half the time when you're saying no to someone, there's other options. They're just gonna circle off and ask the next person on the list. Right. It's like the earth doesn't center around you. It's just sometimes being like, say the no, the person's going to find another option. It's pretty simple.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. And the quicker you get to know, the more of a relief it is.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The longer you wait on the no, you just give a maybe. Let me think about it. You're still going to be thinking about it. I'm just going to live in your head.

[Emma Grede]

I want to talk to you a little bit about difficult conversations because this, everybody has. I mean, I feel like in my work life, I, you know, I have to have difficult conversations with people pretty consistently. Where I would struggle is having conversations with people that I love. So how do you even broach having the really hard conversations with someone? And is there, you know, is there a very different way that you think about the really hard stuff, like when it matters?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, there is. First thing you want to do is think of the end of it. Don't start with the beginning, start with the end of it.

[Emma Grede]

Like, what is, what's the outcome I want to have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What's the goal? What's the ultimate ask? Too many people wait until they're tall to figure out what they want to say. And that creates a big problem because it leads the other person guessing and you're trying to land the plane and they're trying to start butting in. You're going, no, no, no, that's not it. Wait, wait, wait. And you don't even know where you want to go. Often we just don't know how we want to land the plane. So, number one, you want to end when you want to begin with what the outcome is going to be. So have that in your mind before you even start the conversation. What is the ultimate ask? Don't be thinking of that smart little comment, that little zinger you're going to throw while you're brushing your teeth going, oh, that's a good point. I'm going to say this. You want to focus on what's the ultimate ask going into it. It's going to make it a whole lot better for you.

[Emma Grede]

Do you have an example of, like, a difficult conversation you've had to have and how you've handled it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I had to let somebody go. So I've.

[Emma Grede]

It's always a nightmare to let someone.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's not a good feeling.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And there's some people, though, it's a relief to let them go. I mean. Cause, you know, your team's gonna get better, the drama's gonna be reduced. You're going to. You have to prune the tree to make it grow. So this is what happened. I had to let somebody go. In the law firm where I see a lot of people mess up and firing someone is. They begin with the kindness. And they'll say something like, so, Emma, how are you doing? Are you good? How's your family? You're good. Have you seen the weather outside? It's crazy, right? Yeah, I know. So listen. And that's right there. Yeah, that's it now. So listen, it just. They are. They're waiting for that hammer to drop. So instead, what you want to do is lead with the hard. And it can sound just like this. Let's say I need to let you go. Heaven forbid. And I sat down, and we sat down and I said, emma, I got bad news. And you're going to kind of. And I give you a pause, give you four seconds, three seconds, and you're going to kind of go. You're like, all right, you allow the. Ready yourself. And then I'll say, I gotta let you go. You've been wonderful. See, now I'm leading with the compliments. You've been wonderful, part of the team. We've really enjoyed having you. I look forward to where your career is gonna go. It's just not gonna be here, like, anytime you lead with the small talk of, how's your family? How's it going? So listen, they hold it against you. Cause it Means everything that you said before wasn't sincere. Yeah. Now they don't wanna connect with you because totally now you're inauthentic. But when I can just say, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. So let's say it's just something sensitive, something that you're in trouble and talk to you. This is gonna be a difficult conversation. This isn't gonna be a fun conversation. This is gonna be hard to talk about. This might come as a shock to you. Anything that I can do to just prep you? Like on my team, if they call first thing, if something's wrong, they say, you're not gonna like this. That's the first thing outta their mouth. I go, okay.

[Emma Grede]

That's every call I get all day.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's every call.

[Emma Grede]

No one ever calls me a good news.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And what happens is, we always think that the worst possible outcome.

[Emma Grede]

Totally. So then it's oftentimes not as bad.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And then. And when they tell it, you're like, oh, that's it.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I can deal with that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I can deal with that.

[Emma Grede]

Preparedness has a lot to do with it because you're very, very thoughtful with your words. Do you do, like. Do you think ahead of difficult conversations or any conversations? Like, you ought to, like, have practiced first?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I don't find the practicing is helpful because it means how do you be so.

[Emma Grede]

How do you be so precise with the words, though?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's your body. Your body is what's controlling it. The first rule would be let your breath be the first word that you say.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, that's a great tip. Let your breath be the first word. So you're like, take a conscious breath.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. It's called a conversational breath, and it uses the advantages of what they call a physiological sigh. So we're gonna go in through our nose, like, three seconds and one more at the top, through your nose. It's a double inhale, then relax.

[Emma Grede]

What's the other person doing while we're breathing like this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, it's really quick. You're never gonna know.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, fine.

[Jefferson Fisher]

For example, I've been doing it now, and you just never know. Yeah. And so you do it when somebody's saying something that you don't like.

[Emma Grede]

And what's that? Like, what is actually happening during that conversational breath?

[Jefferson Fisher]

So it's like a sigh. Have you ever been like. And you're like, okay, now you can't do that in regular conversation, but it's the same effect. And what it's doing is calming your nervous system.

[Emma Grede]

It's like taking the temperature down.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. More importantly, what it's telling your body is, this does not threaten me. So whatever they tell me, if it's something negative, if there's something hectic and chaotic and you can use your breath before either you say it or while somebody is talking, it is just cueing you in to your body saying, this does not threaten me. And whenever you do that. Because a lot of times we hold our breath, Emma. That's what we do.

[Emma Grede]

I find myself doing that all the time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's really easy.

[Emma Grede]

Sometimes I feel like I've done that for the full day. You know what I mean? It's just in there. And I get in the car and I'm like, exactly. Unbelievable.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Or really shallow breathing.

[Emma Grede]

Or I hold my breath while I email.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. You know, I'm like, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And what does it just tweaks you up. I mean, that's why sometimes we yell, it's just expensive. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Nobody thinks though, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Of course it does.

[Emma Grede]

It's like a ball inside. So you just have to remember to breathe well.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's a lot of things to keep in mind, but breath is the first go to. Because if you have your breath in line, a lot of things go well. So if you were to say something ugly to me, we can talk about those concepts. It's letting it drive, letting it have time. The more time I can add distance for us to let. Not just my body regulate. Let your body exactly.

[Emma Grede]

Because all of a sudden you're like. You're in that situation where now I've got to think about what I just said. You took a breath. So now I'm like, what actually did I just.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It allows just for that moment, your analytical side, that logical side, to stay at the forefront rather than getting wrapped up in the emotion of trying to win and trying to prove you're wrong. Ready to level up? Champa Casino is your playbook to fun. It's free to play with no purchase necessary. Enjoy hundreds of online social games like blackjack, slots and solitaire anytime anywhere with fresh releases every week. Whether you are at home or on the go, let Chumba Casino bring the excitement to you. Plus, get free daily login bonuses and a free welcome bonus. Join now for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.

[Emma Grede]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

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[Emma Grede]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

There's some things that come to mind. One is this idea of frames. And anybody listening right now can apply a frame to every conversation, whether it's the workplace, the boardroom, the living room, whatever. One and this is how you do it. Number one, you want to tell the person what you want to talk about. Number two, you want to tell them how you want to feel or walk away from that conversation. That's adding the goal into it. Number three, you get their buy in into the frame so let's say I need to address some comments you made yesterday, Emma. It would sound like this. Number one, I talked to you. I said, emma, I need to talk to you about some comments that you made at yesterday's meeting. I want to walk away from that conversation with the understanding of knowing that's not gonna happen again. Sound good. And like you, now you have it. Now you know exactly where you're going in that conversation. It could be about anything, though. Hey, I'd like to talk with you about our meeting tomorrow and make sure that we're aligned on expectations for the budget network. Perfect. They're gonna say great. Instead of the hey, you got five minutes, which is never five minutes. And also it depends. Are you trying to tell me a story? Are you trying to give me something that I need right now? Because right now I'm focused on this email that I'm working on. So there's a lot of different ways of using that frame. Two, I want you to think of when you need to disagree with someone, especially in front of other people. But in any conversation, instead of the I disagree, I don't agree, that's going to make them very defensive because they're going to go, no, that's mine. You need to have my idea. Most people love ideas. They just love theirs the best 100%. And so when you're able to say instead of I disagree, tweak that to say, I see things differently. Talk in matter of perspectives, not in points. So you might be making a great point. What you need to do is just talk about the perspective. I see it differently. I have another take. I have a different perspective. Whenever you can say that, they're not going to get defensive, so it's going to allow them to do that. Third is you can prime the conversation with something like, I'm telling you this because now you can use this in a romantic setting. I'm telling you this because I love you. I'm telling you this because you're my friend versus that instead of the hey, I love you, but see hear the difference.

[Emma Grede]

Yep, I totally hear the difference.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Same thing in the workplace. I'm telling you this because I know you value transparency. I'm telling you this because I know we're all headed to the same goal and we all support each other.

[Emma Grede]

I'm telling you this because I want to leave this meeting with alignment.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Perfect. There you go. Just like that. I'll give you another thing that I really like for the workplace. Anybody who's ever can relate to this, of throwing out an idea around a boardroom and somebody immediately tries to cut it down, it's because they think their idea is the best they want. They're very protective of their ideas, and so they like to poke holes in yours because it's not theirs, of course. But when you say, I have 20% of an idea, use percentages. So I have 20% of an idea,. I need your help with the other 80%.

[Emma Grede]

And now that's a good one. Now you create this collaboration.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Now everybody's now that. Now they feel it like a challenge to build to the 80%.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. Cause there's, like a sense of ownership in the rest of the idea.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Now they feel like they're building it.

[Emma Grede]

All right, so what happens then? Because I'm just gonna keep picking on this. What if you have to prove your case? Like, what happens when nobody's with you in the room and you feel very, very strong to the point of, like, you know, emotionally strong in an idea? What do you do? Like, how do you create. It's not so much an argument, but when the room is against you, how do you bring people around when it's like, I know I'm right about this thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So I would. Here's what my thought is. Number one, I would say out loud, I know you're against me on this, because what happens is when we make a statement, people love to correct us, right? They love to correct us. So what they're actually thinking is when.

[Emma Grede]

You say, no, no, no, I'm not against you. That's what they're gonna do. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. You got it. If you're saying it, they. They correct you. So there's a difference between this idea. I don't want you to take this the wrong way. That guarantees they're going to take it the wrong way. But if I say, you're probably going to take this the wrong way, they're going to go, no, I'm not. So you lead with the. I know you're all against me on this. Automatically everybody's going to go no in their head. And then two, you're going to lead with the goal of whatever you're asking for, of why. Not their point, but where you're headed in this conversation, like the communal goal, which is always going to be higher than the issue you're presenting.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So whether it's. And it needs to be more specific than alignment, it needs to be. I know we're looking at trying to build X quarter. I know we have the. We want to expand here. So you have to Hit them with the common goal. Because now they're in. Now they're like you're getting that first agreement with them. Yes, we all are. And three is you're giving the mission of what I feel strongly about. So when you can even prime it with. I am telling you this because I believe that I am very right on this subject or I've. In my experience, this is where we're going to go. I need to voice this. It can be simple as that. I'm telling you this because I have to say this out loud or I will not forgive myself if I leave this meeting without this unsaid. Then they're going to allow you to say it rather than take it as an attack.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. I feel like you can all the best plans that you might have in the world still. Sometimes things can just go the wrong way. Right. They can just go a little bit and they do. Right. They just go a little bit left. Do you feel like you need to always bring like somebody else in to have the conversation? Do you think the disagreements are more easily settled between two people or there's like a real need for HR to come into some of these workplace disagreements?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Depends on the topic.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There are some things where it is smarter and wiser for you to have a witness to the conversation. There's.

[Emma Grede]

We're putting on your legal hat now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There you go. You need to have a witness to that conversation for somebody who's objective and can hold court on that. If you said something at the meeting, I have two choices. Maybe you said something I didn't like. I have two choices. I can spread things about you that's ugly and just breed toxicity or I can address it with you directly and that oftentimes gets more respect from the other person of you could have done this with that. You could have reported it. Here I am talking to you now and it's that concept we talked about of you need to tell them who you are. And that doesn't mean telling them your name. That means that telling them who your character is, your values and has all to do with that direct one on one conversation.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I love that. I also think you go back to what you said earlier about the end result. Like what do you want the end result? Nobody wants a problem in the workplace. You want to be able to get on with your colleagues. So it's like what are you actually, what are you trying to optimize for here? It's not like to win the battle. It's like Just to have the ease of, like, a good work life. And so you have to think about that from an end result. What happens if you are really, like, if something happens in the workplace that does verge on unprofessionalism? You know, if somebody insults you, if somebody is, you know, really rude or, you know, degrading to you in some way? Is there, like, what are the. What. What should you say, like, in that moment? Because I feel like sometimes we get in our own heads and we'll go home and be like, God, I wish I'd have, like, been able to say that. How do you deal with that in the moment in a way that isn't, you know, like, lashing back out? Right. It's not unprofessional. But by the same token, it's like you've. You've crossed a line here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You want to make sure you add about five to seven seconds of silence.

[Emma Grede]

Meaning we're going back to the side. This is really hard for me, all this breathing and silence. I'm such a lasher out. Oh, I don't know what to do with all this breathing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, okay.

[Emma Grede]

We're breathing to get seven seconds this time. I was good. I could get on the four, but the seven is a lot for me. Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, it depends what they say. Depends what they say.

[Emma Grede]

You know, something not nice.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. So let's say you said something ugly to me.

[Emma Grede]

I would never.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You would never.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But let's say you did. That was truly insulting or condescending. There's a difference between me catching it and throwing it back at you harder. Because that's what you want to do. I want to say something harder. Well, then, now I'm the one that has to apologize. Now I'm the one that's had the worst offense.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But if I just give it five seconds of nothing. What I picture is you just let their words fall to the ground. They don't even reach you. And then now you kind of get to look at it on the ground and look at them like, is that. Is that what you wanted to say? Kind of give them. That's what the silence. That's what the silence does. And so when they realize that they didn't get that hit of dopamine, they didn't get that reaction. They didn't get that response. It just makes them feel uncomfortable. They're realizing it's not fun. That's why oftentimes they'll already apologize for it or they'll take it back. They'll say, no, I'M sorry, I didn't mean that. Because they heard it again in the silence. And so long silences are like mirrors that allows them to hear their words back. I do that a lot of times in litigation with people who I know are lying under oath. If you add that silence, it just eats them. It eats them up. And they'll often get to the truth before you even have to say anything because they know you're not buying it. So one would be the silence. Silence is great.

[Emma Grede]

I've been really tripping myself up my whole life. Chit chat happened to fill the gaps. I'm so annoyed.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Silence is a whole lot more powerful because it's.

[Emma Grede]

It's a tool. The way you're talking about it is. It's literally as a. You know, it's a mirror. It's a tool.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It is. And though it's the absence of words, it's not the absence of communication. I mean, it is. You're still saying so many things.

[Emma Grede]

And what you're saying is, especially when you look at them and the words, and they're falling on the floor and we're both looking at the words. I mean, it's a whole thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It is.

[Emma Grede]

I can totally visualize this whole thing. And you would feel embarrassment. Right. And I guess it's the same, like, if you lash out at your partner, if, like, you have that moment of silence, you will feel horrendous.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. Because now you've. You've put that word out on a plank. Like, you've exposed it. You've exposed your ugly. And people don't like their ugly being exposed. And so when you have that silence, and then you can ask them to say it again, which is the best part.

[Emma Grede]

Have you done this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Have you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Do you know. Would you say. Can you say that again? Would you repeat yourself?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So you ask. You can. Yeah. Either one of those. You could say, I need you to say that again.

[Emma Grede]

But not, like, say that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

I need you to say that again.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I didn't. I didn't catch that. I need you to say that again. Can you repeat that? Anything like that? It's. They don't want to do it because it's not just a spotlight on their bad behavior. It's getting them double down on it. And that's a whole lot harder for people. They often will not do it. Number three, what I want you to do is ask a question of intent. This is for the people that do double down. This is for the people who really want to go that far. And you can use this in every day, even at the workplace. You say, did you mean. That's what I want you to begin with. Did you mean, did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to hurt my feelings? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to belittle me? When you ask that, it's doing two things. One, particularly in text message, you say, did you mean like, did you mean for that to be short? Have you ever. With a significant other.

[Emma Grede]

Totally.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you're like, oh, I guess you're mad because you sent okay or K or whatever it is you say, did you mean for that to be short? And they go, no, no, no, no. I'm just, I'm busy with the kids. I'm dropping off something else. Giving them the grace number two, it's making them have to hear their words and the intent. And they have a hard time living with the intent when it's actually to hurt you.

[Emma Grede]

Wow. So you're going to go the insult. It's like the insult happens.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

You're going to go seven seconds, silent five to seven seconds, and you're going to repeat it back to him.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You're going to get them to repeat it.

[Emma Grede]

Double down on it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

It's almost like I'm wishing for someone to be rooting me. Wow, that's some powerful stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I better than reacting to it.

[Emma Grede]

I know. And you know, and this is, you know, I just feel like so much of this is ingrained. I watched so many interviews with you where you are like so even keeled. You have such a beautiful way of communicating. And I feel like I'm gonna blame my upbringing, but, you know, I just, you know, I kind of feel like I was forged in fire. Right. I was raised to like, fighting words like, you know, head on. And I think that my immediate, you know, my immediate kind of reaction is to like, you know, do this, like what the kids would call, like crashing out. Right. I'm like, literally not ready to headfirst into, you know, this like, horrible reaction. Can you, can you train yourself, can you train yourself to be more thoughtful? And, you know, like, you have so many tips, but like, how does that become ingrained in who you are and how you choose to communicate?

[Jefferson Fisher]

We often think only of the moment in time. And when we're talking together, we rarely think of the moment after. After you said the hurtful thing, after you said something you can't take back, when you can't unring the bell. And when you start thinking of the issue behind the issue of, yeah, okay, we can talk about this, but we have to think of a life together. We have to think about the kids that we want to raise. We have to think about the company that we want to build together. Whenever you're thinking about the issue that's behind it allows you to slow down. You want to be the one who leads the company, then show more control. You want to do that and slow your pace. You want to do that and stop with the reactions. You want to do that, then control your emotions. It's not that difficult unless you just choose to say, you know what, this is a moment that I can take. And I can either choose to say something or I can choose to breathe. One of those is going to lead to better outcomes.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I feel like you're completely right about that. I mean, because I think the reason that I have so much been able to in my older years, calm down and be more thoughtful about the way I communicate is because I didn't like the way I felt after the reaction. Right. And so it's like you see yourself in that moment and you stop wanting that feeling of like, God, I wish I could have done better. I could have handled that situation. I didn't like myself in that moment. And that kind of distance, you know, being able to see and be like, I don't want to feel like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Emma Grede]

Will really change the way you speak.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It feels good in the moment.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

For 20 seconds it feels good in.

[Emma Grede]

The moment, but then the bad feeling lasts a lot longer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's probably exactly right. Yeah. You don't want to be the one left holding the consequence of your own words.

[Emma Grede]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, in text, and email is transactional, and that means I'm reading the nuance into it for you. And again, we love to read the negative. We never read the positive. We never get something and we go, isn't this just the kindest email you see that they said okay with no emoji. How kind of them? Like, we never think of that. It's like, what kind of okay was that? Because in our head it was like, okay, totally.

[Emma Grede]

You make the voice.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. You make the pull up to a friend, you see what they said, and you're like, ah, yeah, that's so bad. It's just in our natural part of our default there. If you want to do better in emails and texts, you need to say less, Emma, say less. Instead of this mindset of, I need to be a waterfall of information, be a well, so if they want more, they know where to get it. Make them ask a question. And if you're always just giving a flood, I mean, who reads an email that's 10 sentences long? Nobody.

[Emma Grede]

Not me. Not me. Soon as you do a paragraph, I'm off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. You can almost just see. You don't even have to see the words.

[Emma Grede]

Totally. I just see the chunks and I'm like, oh, no, call me. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You see the chunk of text and you're like, nope, absolutely not.

[Emma Grede]

And you have been successful for a really long time. A very successful trial attorney.

[Jefferson Fisher]

How.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, you must have learned so much in all of that time to get to this point where you're such an expert in communication. What is it from that profession that makes you so good at this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Everybody's watching more than you think. I know there are people who say, nobody cares. People still watch you. They're focusing on their own thing, but they watch. So in a trial, it's not just the question I'm asking the witness, it's the jurors, the 12 jurors who are watching me, watching how I react. Information. Not just the good stuff, but the bad stuff. If another attorney's asking a question, they ask something that's hurtful for my case, and I act like it's all terrible. You know what they think I was going to. It's bad.

[Emma Grede]

It's terrible.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. They may think it's going to hurt my case, but if I act like it's nothing, then it's smooth. It's fine. It's not just the question you ask, it's how you're asking it. So you have to make them remember it. That's why it helps to be very short and concise. You have to take a lot of information and boil it down into something very useful. Let's put this in a workplace context. You feel like you have to give a whole lot of background. So you're meeting with somebody and they go, okay, so I was thinking, and you can just totally let me know if I'm wrong about this, but for context. And they just. And everybody's like, oh my gosh, what are you needing? They're looking and they're thinking about what they're going to eat instead. Just, you need to lead with the end. What's the takeaway?

[Emma Grede]

I wonder how, as somebody who suffers with anxiety, how this kind of experience and expertise around communication has kind of helped or hindered that. How do you feel? Like the anxiety kind of fits together with your communication style because it must have some type of impact.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It highlights all the more of why you need to say the feelings out loud. When you keep them all in, bad things happen. It's like a shaken up Coke bottle. You're gonna explode one way or another. And when things were starting to go, when my account was starting to get a lot of attention, that actually became very lonely because nobody in my world could relate to what was happening. I didn't know anybody. And I'm from a small town in Texas. I just didn't know anybody. And there's not like a blog.

[Emma Grede]

There were no, there were no like viral sensations around.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Nobody, not in 100 miles, knock on.

[Emma Grede]

Their door and say, how's this gonna work out?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I wasn't in la where it's like, oh, yeah, totally, yeah, you have a million followers. Like, it was not that kind of thing. And so I've. I've made some amazing friends, you being one of them.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And the idea of how do you communicate that made it all more important of, well, I need to just say how I'm feeling to the people who love me. And it's easy to. When they said, are you having a first time? I had a panic attack. I didn't notice that. I thought I was dying.

[Emma Grede]

I thought I was a heart attack.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I went to the er. I thought I was having a. Because I was so convinced. I was so convinced. I don't have anxiety. There's nothing.

[Emma Grede]

I know how to breathe. I'll just breathe through this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. I was like, I've never been stressed out in my life. I've never been anxious. And turns out your body knows the difference.

[Emma Grede]

Your body knows the difference, doesn't it, Jas?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It really, really does. And so that helped communicate that more. And so what I teach part of that is being able to say, I can tell. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell that's getting me upset. I can tell I'm becoming overwhelmed. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. There's a difference between acting on my defensiveness and saying, like, that's not what I said. You can't say that. That's me acting on it versus I can tell I'm getting defensive. That's me putting on a table and saying, you can see that right there. We can look at it together. That's how I'm feeling. Now we can address it rather than me reacting on it.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, these are very, very big subjects and really amazing things. You are a father of two. I have four kids. What are you teaching your kids about communication? Cause I imagine some of that is just stuff that you can really impart on kids, which is just amazing to give them the freedom to be able to say how they're feeling.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Something about kids is. I came across this quote once, and when it's always stuck with me that once you have kids, you now exist as their memory. That's all you will be to. And so it just became very crucial to me, what am I going to share with them? How do I always want to make them feel? And with my kids in particular, there are little things that I do for when they're acting out or. I know my daughter's told me she brushed her teeth, and I know she hasn't. You know, and by the way, that silence definitely works.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, it does. No doubt.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Or I'll say, it's okay if you haven't brushed your teeth. It's okay. And she'll go, oh, I forgot, I need to go brush them. So anyway, it's this thing with kids that I see so much of myself. My son even looks like me and behaves like me, and so I can look at his little face and take it in my hands. And so many times I'm saying the exact same thing I had to say to myself. And it's a very, very special moment. You become obsessed with your kids. Like, you love their face. They're your favorite thing to see.

[Emma Grede]

Yes. Everything about them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Their smell.

[Emma Grede]

You're obsessed about feet, their little. Everything about them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's nothing better. And what I think I would say I've done the best with my kids is having them being a safe space for all their feelings. Instead of telling him that to toughen up or to get over it, I make sure he tells me what he feels. And he's extremely empathetic in that way. He can feel something and go, I'm feeling sad. I said, jet, what's going on? He'll say, I can tell I'm really upset right now. That right there is huge for any kid to be able to say their feelings. I just want him to feel that for forever. I never want to give that away.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I totally get that. One of my favorite things ever, when we had the twins, my ex at the time, she was seven, she came to me and she said, mom, I'm feeling really jelly. And I was like, you're what? And she said, I'm just really jelly of the twins. And I was like, how amazing that you felt like you could just come and say that to me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I was like, oh, that's beautiful.

[Emma Grede]

Let me get rid of these babies and we'll go and do something together. But I was so proud that she felt like she could just have these feelings that honestly were quite out of line. I was like, goodness me, they're three days old. Put it together, woman. But, you know, it's like she had a big feeling and she wanted to share that. And to me, it just was. You're in such a different head space sometimes that having a kid that can very easily communicate with you is so important.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And I think too of even though everything is perfect now, I think of when they're going to be like 15, 14, and they're going to do things, and we'll be taking a lot of time. I want to be the safe space. Yes, you do, because you never want to. It'll be crushed. If they have done something, they've run into trouble, and they're like, I can't tell dad. Like, that would crush me if they said, I can't tell Mom. Like, it would just crush you. And it's like, what are the things I can do now to make sure that I'm a safe space? And I ingrain that in them. I don't care what they do. You can always come to tell me. So it's always the thank you for telling me with this. Thank you for coming to me with this. Instead of that, you did what? That strong reaction of them going, okay, I can't do this anymore. It's very, very Keen on how are you going to react in the face of bad news.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. And that's what you do. You're like, thank you for telling me. Thank you for sharing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. You say that. Whatever it is, say that even if.

[Emma Grede]

You'Re absolutely shocked by the information that they're telling you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Yours are little, so they're probably not getting there yet. But at some point they're going to come and tell you something the way you are a little bit taken aback, but you kind of got to receive that information in the same way as you would anything else.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

If you want a 15 year old that comes to you with stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. My kid, my son, when he was 4, came walking and he had his hands over his shirt. He looked really, really sad. I was going, what's going on, bub? And he said, I did something bad. I said, what? We got? And he showed me and he had a big hole in the shirt. I said, what happened? He said, I just want to see if the scissors would cut it. And I said, well, what did we learn? He goes, yep. I said, okay. I said, yes, they did. All right. Okay. Well, we probably shouldn't do that again. He goes, yeah, now I probably shouldn't.

[Emma Grede]

Do it now, you know.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And I said, thank you for. Thank you for telling me. Thank you for coming instead of the. They just spilled a little bit of milk out of the cup.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, okay. No. And I feel like that's just gonna pay dividends as your kid gets older. If you're their safe space. I mean, that's it. That's all we can hope for as parents.

[Jefferson Fisher]

In life.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, in life. Yeah, totally. Hands down, I feel like you've just given so many amazing, amazing tips. But if there are just three big takeaways in terms of somebody just saying, do you know what I really want to become a better communicator. I really want to have better relationships. I want to be better at work. I want people to understand me more. What are the most important things we can do?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Number one, don't see an argument as something to win. See it as something to unravel. When you start to pull your way and I start to pull mine, it just makes the knot tighter, makes it harder to undo, makes it longer for us to unravel it. And sometimes it'll take a week, sometimes it takes years. Emma. Before you actually address the knot. And when you start seeing something to unravel, like when you're very quick to apologize, really easy to loosen. 2. When you go into conversations, have something to Learn not something to prove. When you can get into that conversation, they have to understand my point. They have to see how I'm right instead of the question asking yourself, having something to learn of. I wonder where that's coming from. Huh? Okay, I can see that. I wonder where this is. I wonder why they reacted that way. When you're starting to get curious about what's happening, but actually acting on that curiosity and a way of asking them questions with true intent, you're going to have better relationships. And three, you control everything about your life simply by what you decide to say next.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. What are your reactions?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You can't be a kind person if you don't use kind words. Simple as that.

[Emma Grede]

It's really simple.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So if you want to be seen as somebody who's kind and caring and effective, then you're going to start using words that better serve you and lose the words that don't.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, that's three really golden tips right there. We're going to write those down. Yeah, everyone needs to write those down. So I, One of the things that I like to do when I have an expert like you that comes in, I get on the group chats.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Emma Grede]

I have a lot of group chats and I literally ask my girlfriends, I'm like, what would you like to know from a communication expert? So I have a couple of. If you don't mind.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

These are the. And you can, you know, they're. They're easy. Quick and easy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay, got it.

[Emma Grede]

As a strong willed and really assertive person, how do you communicate? With vulnerability and compassion.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Vulnerability and compassion. Begin your sentence with, I'm struggling. There's nothing wrong with that because people relate to struggle. They don't relate to perfection. So if I say, look, I'm struggling with my nerves in this, I'm struggling to get to the point here. You're asking for people's help and people want to be helpful. Now, you can't say, I'm struggling to understand you right now. Like, that's not gonna work. But if it's true vulnerability, it's gonna be a lot better. And people, when you can say, I can tell, I'm feeling nervous about this, people would say they lower their energy and they go, okay, it's okay. You can tell me, like, they will meet you there. But if you act like everything's perfect and you don't need anything from them, then they won't give you anything.

[Emma Grede]

You said people relate to vulnerability, not perfection.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Shit.

[Emma Grede]

That's a really big. We could just Do a whole episode about that. Oh, this is a good one. My husband need not worry. What's your advice for breaking up with someone? I feel like it's so interesting now because I don't know that the term ghost even existed. I don't know, 10 years ago and now people can just disappear off the face of the earth. If you had the right. If you had the right words and I'm talking, this could be a significant other or it could just be a friend. But how do you just break it off with someone?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's very attractive when somebody's direct with you. When somebody can actually communicate what they need instead of bouncing around it, it's an attractive quality. If you need to break up with someone, don't begin with the high and then end on the low meaning.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, so we get your name bursting.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it. Instead of the hey. So it's just, you know, you're just so great and it's been so wonderful. They're just. They know just by now.

[Emma Grede]

And it's not you, it's me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Instead, it's the quick flip. I'm telling you this because I want to be friends with you for a very long time. I'm not seeing it the same way you are. Instead of the. But you have the. And.

[Emma Grede]

And.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So even if it was, this has been wonderful and I need to make sure that we're doing what's right for us.

[Emma Grede]

There's never a good reason to ghost is what I want to say.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. There's not. It's a true insult and it really speaks to a lack of character in my way.

[Emma Grede]

What are your tips to get somebody to listen. Like when you're doing everything right and you know, how do you actually get somebody to hear what you're saying?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, let's say if they're talking, okay, I use their name. Use their name.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, like Jefferson.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's like, yeah, we're just animals. They hear your name.

[Emma Grede]

It's like how I say my kids full name. Blake Holiday, London. Listen to me. Yeah, okay, Same thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So if, let's say you're in a meeting and somebody keeps kind of dominating the conversation and you say Emma. I mean, they'll talk. Or if they're. You say it again. People love their name. It gets them to kind of stop and listen and pay attention because there's nothing better than the sound of their name.

[Emma Grede]

So I have a few rapid fire questions that we ask everyone who comes on. First question is, what do you do when you wake up in the Morning. Ooh.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm usually being woken up by my daughter. My daughter is. Yeah, she's using my alarm clock.

[Emma Grede]

The four year old?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, she's five now.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, it goes so quick.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, she's five and she is a big snuggler on her bed. So she. That's her. My alarm clock. Usually that's the best. Usually it's the smell of her hair.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, heaven. Yeah, heaven. Heaven. And what do you do before you go to bed at night?

[Jefferson Fisher]

We do song and prayer. Kids. I will typically do a puzzle or a read a book. That's like my.

[Emma Grede]

That's your one down.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's my. And I, And I have tea.

[Emma Grede]

You do?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I do.

[Emma Grede]

I love a cup of tea. Any particular tea?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's like a chamomile type of heaven. It's really, really nice.

[Emma Grede]

Very good, very good. Non electronic habits you've got there. Puzzle, a book and a cup of tea.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I really try to. And I just try not to get on my phone as much as I.

[Emma Grede]

I mean it's a total no brainer. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, that's a good question. Find where I can do the most good.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, that's lovely.

[Jefferson Fisher]

How can I help the most people? How can I change legacies of families of how they're going to communicate and build relationships in the world? Like I, I truly, truly believe a better world begins with a better conversation. I really do.

[Emma Grede]

I couldn't agree with you more. And the good news is you're actually doing it. So you should, you can be really proud of yourself.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

What are you aspiring for in your personal life?

[Jefferson Fisher]

To be more fully present. Just. I try to make every baseball game, every practice, every jujitsu, every. I mean even the little huddles that I have with my wife before we're going. I mean, you know, we're just in the chaos.

[Emma Grede]

You're in it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Little kids.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. Where we're going to go. And she's a practicing attorney and I have my practice and this, whatever this is. And so it's making sure that I iron it out. Nothing wrong with just continuing to iron things out.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. Constantly. Always evolving.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Always. Yes, always.

[Emma Grede]

What is a book that changed your life?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, a book that changed my life. There's a book that still gets me and it's a children's book. It's the Giving Tree. Oh, I can't read it without boohooing. I really can't.

[Emma Grede]

I can really see you at bedtime.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh my gosh.

[Emma Grede]

But it's a great. It's a great one. It's a very, very good one.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I remember my parents reading it to me, and I didn't understand it. And then I remember seeing it on the shelf, whatever. At different people's houses. And then when I had my own kids, it was just such a mind opener of, no, this is my purpose. You just continually give. You want a branch, take it. You want the tree, take it. Like, just give and give and give.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, it's such a good. I'm so glad you're reading it to your kids. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't anymore?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Something I valued that I don't anymore. I valued knowing a lot of people, having a whole lot of friends. That was something that I valued a whole lot. How many people can I know and like. And then now I just want my circle so small. It's probably biblical, too. You cannot please everybody, and everybody will try and want something from you. And you just want the four people that they could care less who you are.

[Emma Grede]

Totally. And that they're pleased for you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, exactly. Right.

[Emma Grede]

Because when you got that two or that four, they're like, the ones that are like. Yes. They're so happy for you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And that's hard. That's really hard to find.

[Emma Grede]

It's really hard to find. All right, so on the flip side, what's something that you value now that you didn't back then?

[Jefferson Fisher]

My quiet time. I don't think I took enough time for myself. I just. I ran and ran and ran. I mean, you get the. You how many miles you. I mean, you're just running all over the place.

[Emma Grede]

Just run. I know. What did we even do with our time before we had kids?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's so true.

[Emma Grede]

I had so much quiet time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So true. We thought we had. We thought we had.

[Emma Grede]

Stealing your answer.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. You didn't think we had time then was. Yeah. The time that I really spent for myself of just having a quiet cup of coffee is really a treasure to have. That, and I didn't really value as much writing things down. When I write things down, it's almost therapeutic in a way. I'm not texting it. I'm writing it.

[Emma Grede]

There is something about it coming from your body onto the page. I'm a furious journaler, and it's actually so wonderful to go back and look at those things. I sometimes write down when my kids say something really silly and random that tickles me. I write that down and it's the the best keepsake that you could have because you're like, wow, did they say that? You know? Cause they grow up so quickly and you need those records. It's like the best.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And I did, I think, here until most recently with the book and everything, I try to write a letter to somebody that I haven't thought of in a while and just send a letter that I was thinking about them and that made me feel a thousand times better than if. I mean, a text is great. There's nothing like a text or a call from somebody who just said, I'm just thinking about you. It just feels good. But for me, it was something about writing it and putting it in an envelope and putting a stamp on it and sending it just feels like, all right, I have something important in the world.

[Emma Grede]

Totally. And how good does that person feel when they get the letter? Someone needs to write me a letter.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I'll get your address.

[Emma Grede]

Write me a letter. I'm waiting. This was so heavenly. I love, love speaking to you. Thank you so much for coming.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you for having me.

[Emma Grede]

It's such a pleasure. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend who'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me, our executive producer. Producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Keyser, Leah Rees, Dennis, Arsha Salouja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford. My teams at Jonesworks and wne. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meekol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G R E D e. That's Aspire A S P I R E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emma Greed me.