Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Aspire with Emma Grede – "Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)"

Episode Details:

• Title: Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)
• Host: Emma Grede
• Guest: Bozoma Saint John, Marketing Force Behind Apple, Uber, Netflix, Pepsi, and Beats by Dre
• Release Date: July 29, 2025

---

Introduction

In this inspiring episode of Aspire with Emma Grede, host Emma Grede sits down with the illustrious Bozoma Saint John, a trailblazing marketing executive known for her pivotal roles at top-tier companies like Apple, Uber, Netflix, Pepsi, and Beats by Dre. Bozoma shares her journey of owning her narrative, advocating for herself, and transforming challenges into career propulsion.

---

Early Life and Upbringing ([03:13]-[07:43])

Bozoma Saint John opens up about her childhood, emphasizing the foundational role her parents played in shaping her pursuit of excellence. Growing up as the daughter of an orphaned Pan Africanist father from Ghana and a homemaker mother who was also a fashion designer, Bozoma learned early that excellence was the only option.

Notable Quote:

"Excellence DNA. My parents are exceptional human beings." ([03:38])

She recounts the upheaval her family faced due to a coup in Ghana, leading them to seek political asylum in the U.S. for several years before returning to Kenya briefly and eventually settling permanently in the United States when she was twelve.

Bozoma credits her mother’s craftsmanship in couture fashion as sparking her early appreciation for design and aesthetics, which later influenced her marketing career.

Notable Quote:

"Quiet whir of a sewing machine are my earliest memories. She made my prom dresses, my wedding dress." ([06:08])

---

Career Beginnings and Philosophy ([09:14]-[18:32])

Contrary to popular belief, Bozoma reveals that her remarkable career trajectory was never meticulously planned. She describes her ascent in the marketing world as a series of serendipitous opportunities aligned with her innate storytelling abilities and relentless advocacy.

Notable Quote:

"I never planned. And currently, I don't have a five-year plan. I don't even have a year plan." ([09:36])

Her first significant break came when she impressed Spike Lee with her proactive approach, leading to a role at Beats by Dre. This encounter underscored her belief in acting decisively and trusting one's instincts rather than over-planning.

---

Self-Advocacy and Excellence ([25:42]-[38:15])

Bozoma delves into the importance of self-advocacy, particularly for women in corporate environments. She recounts how attributing her lack of promotions to not speaking up about her accomplishments led her to realize the necessity of advocating for herself to secure recognition and advancement.

Notable Quote:

"You have to advocate for yourself. You have to say the words and you have to take credit for your work." ([27:12])

This realization was pivotal when, despite a banner year marked by significant achievements, Bozoma faced a lack of recognition following her husband’s passing. This experience cemented her commitment to self-promotion as a means to ensure her contributions were acknowledged.

Notable Quote:

"I never took credit for anything. How would they know?" ([33:56])

---

Leadership and Storytelling in Marketing ([40:35]-[61:05])

Bozoma emphasizes storytelling as the cornerstone of effective marketing. She explains that her specialty lies in crafting compelling narratives that resonate both internally within organizations and externally with consumers. Her leadership style focuses on inspiring teams through authentic and relatable stories, fostering a culture of excellence and passion.

Notable Quote:

"My specialty is storytelling. That is what I am. Excellent." ([40:13])

She highlights the importance of aligning a brand’s internal narrative with its external messaging to create cohesive and impactful marketing campaigns.

---

Challenges and Resilience ([61:05]-[87:59])

Bozoma shares candid reflections on the personal and professional challenges she has faced, including the loss of her husband and battling health issues. These experiences have fortified her resilience and reinforced her belief in living a life of excellence regardless of circumstances.

Notable Quote:

"Every day something happens, and I'm in awe of this life. My life is going to be excellent." ([92:07])

She discusses her stint as Chief Brand Officer at Uber, where she navigated corporate chaos and leveraged her storytelling prowess to drive brand transformation. Her decision to leave large corporations and start her own business, Eve by Bozoma Saint John, is portrayed as a move towards greater autonomy and alignment with her personal values.

---

New Ventures: Eve by Bozoma Saint John ([81:05]-[88:05])

Bozoma introduces her latest venture, Eve by Bozoma Saint John, a hair extension brand tailored specifically for women of color. Frustrated by the lack of quality and inclusive products in the market, she invested her own capital to create a line that addresses the nuanced needs of her community.

Notable Quote:

"But I was like, why am I doing that? What am I doing it for? I can fund it, so why do I need to." ([86:21])

She details the extensive research and personal investment involved in establishing the brand, from designing the products to building a manufacturing facility in Ghana. This initiative not only fills a critical gap in the market but also supports economic empowerment in her homeland.

---

Appearance on the Housewives ([89:33]-[95:15])

Bozoma discusses her unexpected appearance on The Housewives, where she brings her authentic self and professional acumen to the reality show format. She contrasts her approach with the typical drama-driven narratives of the show, emphasizing vulnerability, resilience, and intelligent discourse over superficial conflict.

Notable Quote:

"I believe in myself first. You have to be so in love with yourself that nothing anybody says is ever gonna pierce that veil." ([73:39])

Her participation serves as an extension of her storytelling ethos, showcasing how authenticity and self-confidence can transform traditional platforms into arenas for meaningful dialogue.

---

Personal Reflections and Quick Fire Round ([96:05]-[104:23])

In a heartfelt exchange, Bozoma reflects on her personal growth, the importance of self-love, and raising her daughter with the same principles that guide her professional life. She emphasizes the necessity of specific affirmations to build self-esteem and counters societal pressures that often undermine women's confidence.

Notable Quote:

"You have to be so in love with yourself that nothing anybody says is ever gonna pierce that veil." ([69:19])

During the quick fire round, Bozoma shares personal habits and aspirations, highlighting her commitment to prayer, continuous self-improvement, and her ambition for both professional excellence and personal fulfillment.

---

Conclusion

Bozoma Saint John's narrative is a testament to the power of self-advocacy, authentic storytelling, and unwavering commitment to excellence. Her journey from a resilient immigrant child to a marketing powerhouse and entrepreneur offers invaluable insights for anyone aspiring to build a fearless and impactful career. Emma Grede and Bozoma's conversation encapsulates the essence of Aspire with Emma Grede: transforming dreams into reality through personal stories, data-driven advice, and real-world strategies.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Excellence DNA. My parents are exceptional human beings." ([03:38])
• "I never planned. And currently, I don't have a five-year plan. I don't even have a year plan." ([09:36])
• "You have to advocate for yourself. You have to say the words and you have to take credit for your work." ([27:12])
• "My specialty is storytelling. That is what I am. Excellent." ([40:13])
• "You have to be so in love with yourself that nothing anybody says is ever gonna pierce that veil." ([73:39])
• "Every day something happens, and I'm in awe of this life. My life is going to be excellent." ([92:07])

This episode serves as a powerful guide for listeners aiming to elevate their careers and personal lives by embracing self-worth, strategic storytelling, and relentless pursuit of excellence.

Transcript

[Bozema St. John]

Foreign.

[Emma Grede]

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[Bozema St. John]

I'm really loose.

[Emma Grede]

I'm in my bows look today with the sequins and the color, because we know I don't like sequins and color.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, but we're matching in our sequins and color. I don't have sequins on.

[Emma Grede]

Well, you usually do. You are a sequin, my darling.

[Bozema St. John]

Thank you.

[Emma Grede]

You are just a bright, shining star.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm a human sequin, literally.

[Emma Grede]

Of all the compliments to start with. There you go.

[Bozema St. John]

That's it.

[Emma Grede]

So, Bo, I want to jump straight in because something that we talk about in business all the time is excellence. And what I read about you and your childhood was that excellence was just the expectation. There was no middle. There was no okay. And so I kind of want you to take me back a little bit and talk to me about your childhood, your upbringing, but mostly how that relates to who you are and how you come into the world today. Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's great. I mean, I love starting there because I like to start with DNA, you know, And I think I have. That's important. Yeah, I do have Excell. Excellent DNA. My parents are exceptional human beings. And neither of us need to be.

[Emma Grede]

So happy to hear you say something like that.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, I think they expect me to say that. That's what I'm saying. Excellence will bring you there. If my dad was here, he'd be like, yes, she is right.

[Emma Grede]

Excellent. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

She'd be like, yep, Max, that's true. But I think they're excellent not just because they're compassionate and good people, but because they overcame so much, you know, and didn't really have anyone to tell them to excel. Yet they did.

[Emma Grede]

And yet they did.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Like, my dad is a orphan, you know, who was orphaned at 14 from this small little place on the very western border of Ghana. The statistics about whether or not he should have succeeded in life or they don't exist. But yet he came out of that situation, earned two PhDs, raised four daughters who were all exceptional people.

[Emma Grede]

Exceptional people. And you were raised here, right, in America.

[Bozema St. John]

You were born in Connecticut places. I was born in Connecticut, but my dad is a Pan Africanist and wanted to go back to the continent as soon as he received his education. I think at that time, late 60s, early 70s, most people who immigrated for education would just stay and build their life in whatever country they went to. Whether it was a migrant.

[Emma Grede]

And he decided to go back.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, he was like, I've got my education, I'm going back. And so he became a professor at the university. He went into politics. But then, unfortunately, there was a coup, a coup d' etat in Ghana in the early 80s. And that's how we left Africa.

[Emma Grede]

So what did that mean for you and your family?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, it was an uprooting, right? Because like I said, my parents are Pan Africanist. They love Africa. They wanna help uplift Africa. And so for them, the coup meant a disruption of that. It meant that they couldn't actually be in the country that they wanted to be in. And so we came to the US in political asylum, and we're here for a few months, and then my dad was like, nope, back to Africa we go. But we went to the other side of the continent, to Kenya, and we're there for a few years. And by that point, the political situation in Ghana had settled down, and so we went back to Ghana. But by that point, it wasn't the same, you know, for my dad. And he decided that, okay, well, you know, maybe his talents aren't there, but he could use them in the U.S. and that's how we settled back in the U.S. when I was 12.

[Emma Grede]

12 years old.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

And what about your mother at this stage?

[Bozema St. John]

My mother?

[Emma Grede]

Because I know you're so close to your mother.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, yes, Very, very close to my mom. She's a homemaker, a chosen one because she is a fashion designer by trade and always had a little boutique, you know, in our house.

[Emma Grede]

Is that where you get it from?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, yes, yes, certainly. My stylist and my mother, no one would argue with that. My dad wouldn't argue with that, you know, but she, you know, she made couture. And so it was. And not with patterns. You know, she took measurements and designed and cut fabrics. And so, like that cut of fabric or the small, you know, sort of quiet whir of a sewing machine are my earliest memories. And she would make everything. I mean, she made my prom dresses, you know, she made my wedding dress. We both designed it.

[Emma Grede]

That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. What did you learn from your parents?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, gosh. Well, look, my parents are immigrants. At the end of the day, that's what they are. They've been nomadic, not by choice, but by situation. And for me, I think there's a number of things that has taught me. One, compassion, you know, for people who come from different walks of life who, you know, sometimes have to change their situation. In order to make themselves better or make their families better. And having compassion for that. They've also taught me the power of understanding that it doesn't matter what your circumstances are, that excellence is should be expected of your life. You know, not just of, like, how you are, but just of your life.

[Emma Grede]

You knew that from a young age.

[Bozema St. John]

From a young age.

[Emma Grede]

How old?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, God, I don't know that there.

[Emma Grede]

Was a time I did in that. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that. I feel like you even are raised like that. And you know, it intrinsically, it's neat or it comes to you, like, much later in life, like in your career. But I feel it the same. For me, it was like, there is no choice but for you to be the best.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

And my mom didn't care what it was that I decided to do, but she's like, you better be really, really good at it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And here's the thing. I think there is another layer to my understanding which isn't even just so much that I need to be the best. That was just out the gate. That was not anything that you could.

[Emma Grede]

Earn up for discussion.

[Bozema St. John]

You have to be the best. But it wasn't just that. It was that your life will be the best. Your life will be excellent. And so you approach life that way. You don't approach life like, oh, woe is me, and this situation is terrible and I've got to rise above it. That was not the understanding. The understanding is that your life and not your present life and your future.

[Emma Grede]

Life, and that it was your responsibility to make it happen. No, how did you. How did you contextualize that as a kid? Like, your life has to be acceptable.

[Bozema St. John]

No, your responsibility was to be the best in your life.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Bozema St. John]

But the understanding was that your life is going to be the best, so you should act that way.

[Emma Grede]

You should behave that way.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. You should walk into that.

[Emma Grede]

Come to expect it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Come to expect that the world is going to conspire in your best interest. And so even when bad things happen to you, know that therefore, eventually you're good. And so there is no complaining. There is no sitting down and being like, oh, I can't believe this happened to me today. It's like, okay, well, this happened to you today, but it's probably for your benefit. So you should figure out how that's gonna be great for you.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, honestly, your career reads like. I mean, I don't even understand. It's like a Fortune 500 roll call, you know, from Apple to Pepsi to Beats to Uber. Like, it's so unbelievably extraordinary. And I wonder if, like, you knew that that was the type of career you were going to have.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I never planned.

[Emma Grede]

What do you mean you never planned?

[Bozema St. John]

No, I didn't. And I think perhaps that's the surprise of it all. It's a surprise to me too, by the way.

[Emma Grede]

Get out of here. No, seriously, you can't tell me that because I'm the most planned person on the planet.

[Bozema St. John]

What do you mean?

[Emma Grede]

You are not.

[Bozema St. John]

I am absolutely right.

[Emma Grede]

There's no strategy to this career you've built.

[Bozema St. John]

There is no strategy. No, I didn't start.

[Emma Grede]

Get out of the house.

[Bozema St. John]

No, I really did not. No, I did not. I don't use.

[Emma Grede]

You had that type of career and there was no planning.

[Bozema St. John]

No, no planning of that. And currently I don't have a five year plan. I don't have a ten year plan. I don't even have a year plan. No, I don't. I know, I know that's like causing you like to. I feel like it's gonna start shaking. No, but I don't have a plan. I don't have a plan.

[Emma Grede]

So how did this. So let's, you know, I reel off those companies like it's nothing. But we're talking about the best at the best at the best. And you held the highest position in what you do in marketing, Chief marketing officer at many of these companies. So how did this happen? Like, I feel like there's going to be so many people listening to this podcast that would be like, I would love to have that type of career. So coming from where you come from, believing what you did, how did you find yourself in those positions?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, here's the thing is that I think part of the reason why this has happened or is happening is that there are many moments of like the sliding doors. You know, there was a film in the late 90s so good. With Gwyneth. Yeah, with Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, I remember it.

[Bozema St. John]

Sliding doors.

[Emma Grede]

Left, go right.

[Bozema St. John]

I love that film.

[Emma Grede]

It was so good.

[Bozema St. John]

The difference for me from that film is that, you know, sometimes when you think of sliding doors, like, okay, you have like two choices and you go this way and something happens. You go this way, something else happens. My belief system is that it's not as if there's right or wrong, it's just different. And so it doesn't. That's why I don't stress out about decisions. You know, it's like oh, you gotta do this. I don't make pro and con list because of that reason.

[Emma Grede]

You're gonna make a decision and then make it. Right? Like, is that how you think about it?

[Bozema St. John]

Like, I'm gonna make the decision and then it's gonna work. It's the way I approach everything.

[Emma Grede]

Well, it's how you were raised.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Bozema St. John]

And so for me, it's not like, you know, when people stress out or, like, I have friends who call me and just like, what should I do? Should I accept this job? Should I not? Like, should I move to this place? Should I go on a date with this person? Like, they stress out about these ideas, and I'm just like, but why stress out about it? There is no wrong answer. Go and trust that your destiny will meet you there. Like, trust that.

[Emma Grede]

Where did that come from? Do you feel like that? Has that been your experience?

[Bozema St. John]

That has been my experience. And it's also proven. And so I think sometimes it's very difficult to have a theory and then just go with it without proof. But I'm like, look, it's proven itself.

[Emma Grede]

Proven.

[Bozema St. John]

And again and again. So why would I not believe that? Why would I live my life any differently?

[Emma Grede]

Did you choose marketing, or do you feel like it chose you to choose?

[Bozema St. John]

No, it definitely chose me. I for sure fell into it. But I think that, again, that sort of life and the way that I am supposed to be in this life was there all along for marketing. I just didn't know that. And so when I was in high school, and probably even earlier than that, I was just really good at science and math. You know, I was one of those kids who just. I got it easily. It wasn't a problem. I studied very hard, but I didn't have a challenge with those topics. But I loved pop culture. Not because, like, I found it particularly interesting, but I needed it for survival. So when I moved.

[Emma Grede]

What do you mean by that?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, when. When my family moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado, when I was 12, we were coming straight from Ghana. Right. Having had this very diplomatic and, like, political and academic life in different countries.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. And coming from a totally different culture.

[Bozema St. John]

And I come to a city where most people, if they are, you know, with the military, so either Air Force or army, they've maybe moved around, but they were held to, like, US standards or people who were born and raised in Colorado Springs and never left. And so it wasn't like I was coming into a place of, you know, people who are cosmopolitan. And that's not shade against anybody. It's Just the reality.

[Emma Grede]

It's just the reality of what it was. Did you feel otherwise? Did you feel like this is. Like, these are not my people? Yeah, it certainly other and I don't fit in.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And not because I felt other, but because they made me feel like I was other. You know, I've been in so many places where it's like I didn't speak the language or I wasn't of that culture and never felt uncomfortable in it because I knew who I was and my parents forced that until I got to America. And then people were like, oh, you are different, and we don't even like you. Wow. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know what to tell you. And what is interesting, Emma, is that there's a moment that is crystallized in my mind that I remember. Like, it was yesterday. I had to be maybe 13 or 14, and I was looking at myself in the mirror, getting ready for school and trying to understand, like, looking at myself deeply and contemplating, why don't they like me?

[Emma Grede]

You couldn't understand it.

[Bozema St. John]

I couldn't understand it because I was like, I'm so amazing. No, seriously, like, I remembered this moment, like, looking at myself and being like, they make fun of my hair, they make fun of my face. Like, they make fun of my skin.

[Emma Grede]

And you didn't have to feed self doubt into you. You weren't like, maybe my hair, maybe my.

[Bozema St. John]

No, no, no. I just thought there was something wrong with them. Cause I was like. I was like, I don't understand. Because I was looking at myself and thinking, but I'm so dope. And I really thought that at 13, like, I was just like, I know it and they don't see it, and I don't understand why. And so what I was trying to understand wasn't that, like, oh, how do I change my hair? But I was thinking, how do I make them see that I'm dope? And part of that was like, look, I gotta know the things that they know and then understand them better.

[Emma Grede]

Were you into the things that they knew? Like, did you get to America and go, like, wow, this, like, popular culture thing is like, popping off here. This is incredible. This place.

[Bozema St. John]

No, I loved it. I have always loved music and fashion and sports and politics and gossip and social things. Like, I have always. All of it. I've always loved all of it. And so for me, you know, trying to understand why it is that they saw me differently, it became academic, you know, to really understand, okay, well, what is this culture about? Why does everybody in Colorado Springs love the Denver Broncos? Okay, I need to understand American football.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, why do they love, you know, Paula Abdul? Gotta understand pop culture and music in that way. You know, why is it that they're wearing three socks stacked up against each other? What kind of fashion is that? You know?

[Emma Grede]

But, like, did you stack the socks?

[Bozema St. John]

I certainly did. Yeah. I rolled up my sleeves a little bit.

[Emma Grede]

She was like, yes.

[Bozema St. John]

I wore my hair.

[Emma Grede]

You put the bangles on, pull up.

[Bozema St. John]

Like, I had the hairspray going in.

[Emma Grede]

My hair, you know?

[Bozema St. John]

So for me, it became academic, like, feeling like, look, I've got to understand what it is that they like so I can talk to these people and understand them. And so pop culture, to me was academic. It became something for survival and that I needed it so that they didn't see me as so strange.

[Emma Grede]

And. But at this point, you're not putting it together that I'm interested in pop culture. And so there's a career out here for me in marketing that just doesn't happen.

[Bozema St. John]

That doesn't happen. That doesn't even happen for me in college. That happens after college.

[Emma Grede]

So what's your first job?

[Bozema St. John]

Very first job, like, in High School? AT&T. Telephone operator. Okay. Yeah. I was 16. It was great. They're like, hello, this AT&T.

[Emma Grede]

You never forget those jobs.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, never forget those jobs.

[Emma Grede]

They're so supportive.

[Bozema St. John]

And I think also, because, you know, again, this is where now I can look back and be like, oh, all these things were, like, building up, right? Because it was mostly people who were trying to call their family outside of the US and needed somebody to connect them. Of course, now in today's culture, nobody understand it. Just pick up your cell phone and call.

[Emma Grede]

You need to connect.

[Bozema St. John]

But it's like, you needed to call the operators, connect you to your international family. And so most of the people I was talking to had very heavy accents or, you know, were trying. I'm over here, like, looking at all the area codes and being like, what's the country code for that? And then the city code and then dial the number. I was doing that. And to think about it now, where it's like, that's what I do, is connect people to things, to brands, you know, and it's like, how would I have known that at 16, my very.

[Emma Grede]

First job, how would you have known?

[Bozema St. John]

Would even, like, connect to what I'm.

[Emma Grede]

Doing now, which is wild.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

So what was the first time that you understood, okay, I'm gonna be in marketing? Like, this is something that's for me now.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. So I had graduated from undergrad as a pre med major. I took the mcat.

[Emma Grede]

Were your family thrilled with your departure?

[Bozema St. John]

They were so overjoyed. And my dad was like, oh, we're gonna have a doctor. I'm sorry.

[Emma Grede]

What are you gonna do?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, ex. But I had graduated. I had tried to find every excuse not to go to med school just yet. It wasn't that I didn't want to go. I was just like, I don't want to go right now.

[Emma Grede]

Yes. Good choice.

[Bozema St. John]

And so I decided to move to New York on my own.

[Emma Grede]

How old are you at this point?

[Bozema St. John]

I knew one person. God, I was 22, okay? I knew one person.

[Emma Grede]

I had a sensible age to leave the family. Unlike me, I was, like, 15. I'm like, I'm out of here. My mom's like, good luck.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, I mean, look, I had the benefit of having left for college across the country, so I didn't go to school near my family.

[Emma Grede]

Got it very sensitive.

[Bozema St. John]

After the first summer, I never came back.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, I was just like, no, I'm moving.

[Emma Grede]

So you were already out on your own. You're like, I'm moving to New York.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, I'm out of here.

[Emma Grede]

This feels like a place. And why New York? You were like, this is where it's all happening.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. It just seemed exciting.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, I didn't have a real reason.

[Emma Grede]

I just.

[Bozema St. John]

But funny enough, my dad says that, like, when I was, like, four or five, I always said I wanted to live in New York.

[Emma Grede]

No way.

[Bozema St. John]

Which was weird because we didn't know anybody in New York. Nobody knew anybody in New York.

[Emma Grede]

No. You don't know anyone anywhere than where you're from.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

A family from here. And we live here. That's it. Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And so I moved there, and I knew one person who had gone to my college, and she was getting a master's in film. And so I made a deal with her and her roommate. I said, look, if you let me sleep on the couch, I'll cook. Right? But y' all had to buy the groceries because I don't have no money. I was like, you know what? Let me do a great deal for that girl. Okay, Look. So I was doing odd jobs, you know, temp jobs to make money and just to survive. And then again, I feel like, you know, destiny met me where I was standing, which is on the corner of 100 between 5th street and Broadway. All right. In Harlem. And I got the call, or I called into my temp agency that morning, and it said Spike Lee had fired his assistant and he needed somebody to come answer the phone.

[Emma Grede]

Do you know who Spike Lee was?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, I knew who. I definitely knew who Spike Lee was. And I also, by the way, I also knew that the only reason they said I should go is cause I was probably the only black person out there, 100%.

[Emma Grede]

But you're like, this is leaning in.

[Bozema St. John]

You're like, I'll be in. You know, I was like, spikey, I'm.

[Emma Grede]

My black ass straight up to that job.

[Bozema St. John]

100%, no. And so I rolled up there in this really terrible gray suit with my hair pulled back in a tight bun, pearls in my ears, thinking I looked extraordinarily professional, Very assistant.

[Emma Grede]

Like, yes.

[Bozema St. John]

And I sat at the front desk. I came early, you know, before Spike and everything. You come early waiting for the phone to ring. It wasn't ringing, but I was sitting there ready in case it did. And Spike walked in, and he takes one look at me and he's just like. He's like, God damn it. They sent me Miss America. And I looked at him and I. And I was so. Again, like, offended and confused. Like, I literally was just like, wait, why don't you. Why don't you see me? You know, I was like, I am well educated. I am a pre med major, I think.

[Emma Grede]

But you don't say this African American.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm thinking it.

[Emma Grede]

You're thinking it, but it is on.

[Bozema St. John]

My face because I do not have a poker face.

[Emma Grede]

We know.

[Bozema St. John]

So he's standing there looking at me, and I'm looking at him, and there's not a word happening in the agency. And he just turns around and he goes into his office, and I'm sitting there like, well, that was rude.

[Emma Grede]

That was rude.

[Bozema St. John]

That was rude.

[Emma Grede]

And that was not the first meeting that you wanted, clearly.

[Bozema St. John]

No, of course not.

[Emma Grede]

Because we have our things. Like, you're ready to say something really smart and to impress him and be into this.

[Bozema St. John]

But the thing I did notice was that he was walking around with a. Something under his arm. And obviously I knew it was a director, so I assumed it was a script. So when he came out of his office again, I was like, what were you carrying earlier? And he was like, script for my new film. And I was like, can I read it? And he was like, okay, the receptionist. Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

The receptionist.

[Bozema St. John]

The temp receptionist.

[Emma Grede]

Not even permanent.

[Bozema St. John]

Not even permanent. The temp. And, you know, there were a few chuckles.

[Emma Grede]

Did he say yes?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Oh, wow. And he gave it to me. And you know, it's like you were.

[Emma Grede]

Seen in that moment. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Bozema St. John]

But I.

[Emma Grede]

Because I'd be like, this is confidential. No, you can't see it.

[Bozema St. John]

No, he was just like. He was like, sure, read it. And so I read it. I took a red pen to it. It's, by the way, one of his favorite stories. If you meet him and ask him.

[Emma Grede]

He would read it, I would pen.

[Bozema St. John]

I took an actual Spidey script pen to the script. I made changes in diction, I made comments about character development and I brought it back to him two days later. And he was like, you did what? And literally was like, I remember the creative director, his name was Desmond Hall. Okay. This is like 25 years ago. Desmond is sitting there and he's just like shaking his head like, I can't believe the audacity of this girl, you know? And I was looking at Desmond like, oh, shit, I think I'm gonna be fired.

[Emma Grede]

You know what I mean? Yep, that's what I would've felt.

[Bozema St. John]

I took the script, he went into his office and he came back out and he was like, you made some good notes. You should stay. That's when I knew. That's the moment I knew that I was like, it really doesn't matter where you're sitting. It doesn't matter who the person is, how much education they have, what their experiences are. Because me, a completely unexperienced 22 year old woman who was just trying to beg for a job to eat her next lunch, had made comments on Spike Lee's film and he thought they were good.

[Emma Grede]

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[Bozema St. John]

Oh, gosh. Well, this is Pepsi. This is a hard one. Yes, it is Pepsi, technically. But that came because of the recommendation I'd made to see about hiring Beyonce.

[Emma Grede]

This is it. I know this is. This is a great story because Beyonce was not Beyonce then.

[Bozema St. John]

She was not.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Bozema St. John]

She was not Beyonce.

[Emma Grede]

Beyonce beginning.

[Bozema St. John]

That's correct. She was actually coming out of Destiny's Child and she was being panned like universally. Because. Yeah, because people were like, ah. There's been no solo artist who's come out of a girl group that succeeded. Except for Diana Ross. Oh, wow.

[Emma Grede]

That was a long time before.

[Bozema St. John]

Correct. Yes. You know, but I saw an artist.

[Emma Grede]

So at this point, you're at Spike's and you decide to put Beyonce forward for something. Right. Pepsi, essentially. By the way, I'm still in the system. Notice you are an assistant at this point. So how long did you spend with Spike?

[Bozema St. John]

Four years.

[Emma Grede]

Four years.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

You're still an assistant, but Pepsi see you because you make this like, baller move. You put Beyonce in the commercial and they're like, her over here.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, well, because here's the thing, and I think this is actually an important note, which is that you really do have to speak up for yourself. Cause it wasn't like anybody was like, oh, let's give her credit.

[Emma Grede]

No one's coming to give you credit. No, no, no one. No and so you got quite the opposite at that point. Somebody else probably needs to take credit for that because they're being paid for credit. Yes, of course you do, you know.

[Bozema St. John]

Because it became a hit. And so the other trick is that you have to talk about yourself. Everybody says, oh, be humble. Put your head down, do the work. They'll find you. That is bullshit.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. No one's finding you.

[Bozema St. John]

No one finds you.

[Emma Grede]

You have to advocate for yourself.

[Bozema St. John]

You have to advocate for yourself. You have to say the words and you have to take credit for your work.

[Emma Grede]

But, Bose, talk to me about this because why? I talk about this all the time. Why do people get so uncomfortable, specifically women. And I'm going to say it specifically women with self advocating. Why do people say, you're so full of yourself, like, you're taking credit for X, Y and Z. You should be, you know, humbled down. Why does that happen?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, because that's what society tells us. I mean, it's not. This is a behavior that's old as time. You know, it happened in the Garden of Eden with Eve. You know what I'm saying?

[Emma Grede]

It's old.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, she was blamed for, like, humanity's sins. It started there, you know, and so, yes, of course, we've been told to take your. Like, take a seat, be quiet. Like, be grateful for the spot that you have. And so I'm not even upset that women think that way of themselves. Of course we do. We've been trained that way. I'm just saying, wake up. I'm saying, hey, look, they lied to you. And so this idea that, like, we should be humble about our accomplishments and, you know, we'll seem like bitches if we say the thing which is like, oh, I'm great. And when somebody compliments you and you say, I know, because you do know. So I'm sorry. Why am I saying thank you? For what? You know, it's like, you didn't pay me a compliment. I wasn't already aware. You should tell me something. I don't know. Then I'll tell you. Thank you.

[Emma Grede]

Has this backfired for you?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, of course. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, yeah. Because obviously there's gonna be times when people have been like that.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. No, it happened just recently. You know, I went on Jimmy Fallon's show, the Tonight Show.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, we saw you. And you said. He said, you look so amazing. You're like, I do?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, yes. And then he read off, like, my accomplishments. And I. Yes, you're correct. And people said, oh, she should be More humble. Why is she so arrogant? And I said. All I said was, I know. And you are correct.

[Emma Grede]

Why has this become such a cornerstone of your brand and who you are? And why is it so important to you? Because I'm also aware that you are raising a beautiful, young, amazing daughter. Yes. And I think she shines through. Like, I've literally seen this little girl through your social and a little bit on the show. And I'm like, it's so clear that she is so self possessed and she is a strong woman in the making. But I'm interested at why you've really doubled down on this. Because it's not an accident that you go around saying this all the time. It's no accident that you didn't go like, oh, thank you so much, Jimmy. You were like, indeed, yes, yes.

[Bozema St. John]

I think mostly. Where do I even start? It has happened to me so often where people are intentional in trying to put me down or dim my light or make me feel like I should be in a different place, that it now is practiced that I buck against that. You know, it's like it is now a habit that it doesn't matter what I'm doing. I must be bigger. I must advocate louder. I must be more possessed about who I am. Because if I don't do that, the ease with which people will put me in a corner is what society does every day to so many of us walking around and we don't even know because we're so used to our chains. But I'm over here rattling them and being like, no, I won't take it. And if I don't do that, maybe I won't even see my chains. And so I've got to do that every single day. I do it in the mirror. I do it when I'm on a zoom call. I do it when I'm in person. I do it with my kid. I do it at the fricking volleyball game. I do it everywhere. Because the moment I stop, it's when somebody will try to put me down. And I refused to let that happen. Yeah. You know, it's like, I remember. I remember Emma. Oh, my gosh. It was February 2014. My husband had been dead for two months. I came back from bereavement leave to have a review at work. Timing, Yeah, I know. Decided that I had been off of.

[Emma Grede]

You missed the review. Like, bring her in.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. They were like, well, you need to come in. Cause we need to put into the system before the system shuts. And I'm like, we get it? Grieving every day. We know how. It's corporate's work, but okay, so I come in off bereavement work to have my review. The year before had been a banner year for me in my career. Meaning that was the year that Beyonce did the super bowl halftime show, which I worked on. I had done. I had done so many things. I had set up the next three years of Super bowl performances. You know, the $50 million deal that Pepsi did with the NFL. Like, I mean, it was a banner year. At the same time, half of that year, I was battling my husband's oncologist and my mother's oncologist as they both dealt with cancer. My mother survived, my husband did not. And I come in off of bereavement leave for a review, and my boss looks at me in the face and says, you know what, Bose? You didn't hit enough home runs in this past year. And so you don't get a promotion and you don't get a raise. And I was thinking, I don't know what more you do, how much more you show your brilliance. I was also thinking practically, my husband had just died, I had a four year old daughter, and I was like, I have to raise this child by myself. I'm looking down at the next 14 years until she's 18, and then far beyond that for college. I'm doing the math and saying, how do I even afford this? Yes, I need a raise, I need a job, I need a promote. Like, I need the things. This is not even just about my ego. This is practical. And then I went home and I cried my eyes out, girl. I cried, I cried, I cried. I said, how do they not see? How do they miss? And I realized that every time I was in a meeting, when we're talking about the results, I said, we all the time. We did this. My team did this. Da, da, da. We all of the time. I never said I. And so how would they know? So I didn't even really blame my boss for not seeing it because I was like, I never took credit for anything. And I'm not saying at all that you should take credit for the things you didn't do or that, like, it was a team effort. And you're like, I didn't say that. But say the things that you did do. Say the reason why you were important in the room.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. The reason why everybody else thought to it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. And so after.

[Emma Grede]

And you. And you directly attributed the fact that you weren't speaking about yourself to the fact that you didn't get this pay rise and the promotion.

[Bozema St. John]

I knew it.

[Emma Grede]

But you also knew that that was the time to leave.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

You're like, I'm moving on.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Because I knew that. Like, look, I spent a decade there.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. And you've done all the things.

[Bozema St. John]

And that if they didn't see me as the turnkey person, they were never gonna see it. And sometimes that's what's gotta happen. You have to recognize the situation for what it is. Even if it hurts. You have to say, hey, look, I can't give this another six months. And I don't care if that's a job or relationship.

[Emma Grede]

It's a great piece of advice because I feel like so many of us get to that point in a job where you're like, one second, I'm doing the best work. I'm really shining. I'm meeting all the results, and yet there isn't place for me to grow here. So you're like, at that point, you make a decision, you have to live.

[Bozema St. John]

But here's the thing. And this is, you can't wait for the company. But here's the thing. This is a hard thing. Right. I'm saying it like, it's a very hard thing because it's not always obvious, because people will say to you in your job, like, okay, give us another six months. Work on this one, two thing, and then we'll review it.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, we'll see you in the next cycle. Totally.

[Bozema St. John]

Or it's like, again, I don't even just attribute it to work. I think this is the behavior that happens in relationships too, where it's like, you know, you're with somebody and you want something to happen, and they're like, oh, give me another six months to figure it out.

[Emma Grede]

No, sir.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. I'm like, get out of here with your six months. Six months from now, I'm gonna be on top of the world, and you're gonna be crying that you're not. You know what I mean? And so that's what happened to me, is that I simply looked at the situation in which I was in and said, this can no longer be my experience. If you don't want to give me a promotion, if you don't want to give me a raise, if you don't want to appreciate me, it is because of what I did, not because of what we did.

[Emma Grede]

But that's kind of radical self responsibility.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

And the risk of, you know, a lot of people disagreeing with this, but that's very counter to where we are in the culture right now.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh well, no, of course, of course.

[Emma Grede]

Right, no. Not many people would say this is my job now to go and change this.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. I mean I just feel like. But we need it, we need more self possessed people. I think we would be a better society for it because I think that say more about. Well, because again like we've been taught that like, oh, this is community, community, community. But I'm like, I'm just gonna take it back to my African roots. Okay. When you look at a village, everybody has a job, a responsibility. Yes. We're a village and we're a community. It takes a village to raise a child. We've all heard all of the quotes and the things. Okay. However, everybody has a job in the village and in the society. Not everybody is doing everything at the same time. And so if you don't do your job well, the society faults. So what makes you think that you shouldn't be standing advocating in your role in your space that you are doing the thing excellently that is going to allow for the entire community to flourish? Facts. So therefore I'm like, we should all be self possessed. If you're doing your job and you're doing it really well, that means this person's going to do their job and they're going to do it really well.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

So that's the way we should all behave.

[Emma Grede]

So what do you say to people? Because I'm sure you get so many people ask you, how do you start a career in marketing? What's your advice?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, here's the challenge with marketing, which is that it's one of those careers where I do believe in the ladder. You know, you have to climb it. Like you have to start at the bottom, you have to learn the business, you have to have like, you know, small assignments that lead to the medium assignments, which lead to large assignments and lead to the extra large assignments. You know, it doesn't, you can't come in into the top. And so this idea that like, you know, you're just gonna come in and come up with this like brilliant plan is eh, maybe.

[Emma Grede]

Well because you have no idea about execution.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And it really takes executing, you know, and making the mistakes and realizing that the messaging was wrong or that the target was wrong or you know, it's like, ah, I could have had a funnier, faster exit or a funnier and faster entry. Like those things are built over time and you can't do that quickly. And so it's like if you want to create marketing, start with yourself. Like you're the first brand, so start there.

[Emma Grede]

And you started with yourself.

[Bozema St. John]

Hell, yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

You're finishing with yourself right now.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, because I also feel that this goes, you know, into the conversation we're having about advocating for yourself. It's like, look, nobody was calling me badass until I started calling myself that.

[Emma Grede]

They weren't?

[Bozema St. John]

No. Nobody said that.

[Emma Grede]

You gave yourself that name.

[Bozema St. John]

I sure did.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, you really do have the audacity.

[Bozema St. John]

I do.

[Emma Grede]

No one gives themselves a nickname. Who gives themself a nickname? You.

[Bozema St. John]

And you should, too. I'm like, why?

[Emma Grede]

Maybe I need to be a better marketeer. Seriously, why would we do that?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, yes. No, I just assumed someone called you that and you were like, yeah, I am like, no, no, no, I'm gonna rumble.

[Bozema St. John]

No, I called myself that. Oh, I told people that.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, of course you did. Yeah. It's unsurprising after this 30 minute conversation.

[Bozema St. John]

No, but it's true. Because here's the thing, is that it's like, look, what is it that you're actually good at? You know, some of this, A lot of the conversation we're having is about self awareness. You know, it's like, what is the thing that you're really good at? Cause you're not good at everything. I'm not good at everything.

[Emma Grede]

No one is.

[Bozema St. John]

But I'm exceptional at a few things. And then that's the stuff that you, like, get in.

[Emma Grede]

Totally.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, and I do.

[Emma Grede]

Totally.

[Bozema St. John]

I do think that we've also been lied to about this idea of like, you know, sort of like working on the stuff that you're not good at so that you can become.

[Emma Grede]

Don't bother.

[Bozema St. John]

Why would you do that?

[Emma Grede]

Don't bother.

[Bozema St. John]

It's like, be a specialist.

[Emma Grede]

Be a specialist. Have ruthless prioritization.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Just be narrow. I mean, we spoke to Melody Hobson in this podcast and I love. I mean, love Melody. I mean, we love.

[Bozema St. John]

How do we not love her?

[Emma Grede]

But she talks about having an. Like, this is like, she is a specialist. It's like, she is excellent at finance. She understands finance, and from there you get to do many, many different things. But I feel like, again, it's a little bit in the culture to be a bit of a rapper slash actor now. Right? Yeah, I. I only think that that happens to you when you are excellent at something, then you have the choice. As your career grows and as you get better and you get more opportunities, then you can go a bit broader. But in the beginning of your career, it's like you've Just gotta be really.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, here's the thing. I actually believe that it's like, look, there is a trait that you have that can be expressed in many different ways. That's actually the way I think about specializing. My specialty is storytelling. That is what I am. Excellent. And so it can come across in marketing. It comes across as an author, it comes across as a TV personality. I'm a storyteller, and that is what I'm going to stick to.

[Emma Grede]

When did you understand that about yourself and when were you able to give yourself that labor?

[Bozema St. John]

I think I understood that very early.

[Emma Grede]

Actually, because marketing is all about storytelling. Right. It's telling the most compelling stories and being able to communicate that in a myriad of ways.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Yeah. But I think I knew that about myself very early on. But I didn't know it as a career, probably, I would say, until that moment with Spike when I could see Beyonce for who she was, you know, and be able to tell Spike that, like, hey, look, this is why we should look at her. Because X, Y and Z think. And that five second story is what then made him say, okay, you know what? I'll go watch that.

[Emma Grede]

Does Beyonce know this about you? Yeah. Yeah. How amazing. That's so cool. Cause you worked with her for a long time after that as well. This relationship, it's a lot of deals and Super Bowls.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, absolutely insane. I feel like you've worked for such unbelievable people, and that has, like, a way of rubbing off on you. But they're also like, you work for a lot of founders. You work for Travis, you work for Reed, you work for Spike. I feel like there was maybe another founder in there somewhere that you worked with. Jimmy.

[Bozema St. John]

Jimmy.

[Emma Grede]

Jimmy at Bix.

[Bozema St. John]

Ari Emanuel.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, Ari. Yes, Ari.

[Bozema St. John]

So many. So many.

[Emma Grede]

So many men. So many formidable men.

[Bozema St. John]

Interesting characters.

[Emma Grede]

So many interesting characters. What an elegant way to put that. What did you learn from these, like, powerhouse men?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, I think at the very bottom of it, all of them are extraordinarily passionate about their thing. Not about everything about their thing.

[Emma Grede]

The thing. Passion.

[Bozema St. John]

Passion.

[Emma Grede]

Like real passion.

[Bozema St. John]

Like, real passion. Like, we will scrap over this thing. This one thing. It doesn't matter what it is the thing.

[Emma Grede]

I always find that so impressive, don't you? Yeah, if you care so much about something. Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, and then they surrounded themselves with people who also believe in their thing.

[Emma Grede]

Smart. Simple but smart.

[Bozema St. John]

It's simple but smart. Because the thing is that it wasn't necessarily just about, like, paying people enough money to be with you, it was that extra sauce of like finding people who are as passionate about your thing, maybe not more passionate, but as passionate at least. And then surrounding themselves with those people. Now everybody else who falls outside of that and as the company grows. Okay, whatever. Right. But you're immediate circle.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, yes.

[Bozema St. John]

The people who are talking to you every day, who are in your ear, who are telling you you're great or who are telling you you suck must have as equal passion for the thing.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

[Bozema St. John]

That you love.

[Emma Grede]

Honestly this morning. So I started my day in a big fight with my chief product officer about pricing. And she was so passionate. What this woman doesn't know about the price of jeans, it's not worth knowing. And I just backed down. Cause I was like, you know what? And I had to push and push and push, but it made me think. I was like, you are so good at your job that you can fight with me for 35, five minutes about pricing. And I was like, yeah. And it just, again, it makes me so happy because I was like, it's amazing that you know this much.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

I think you're right. It's like the people you surround yourself with, that inner circle is really important.

[Bozema St. John]

Really, really important.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, I want to talk to you about the business that you've started. And I'm so obsessed with staffing, and I think it's so key. But before we move on to that, what do you think when you think about what will guarantee a marketing moment, like a moment in culture, and you've had so many of these moments, what do you think the key, like, the keys are to like crafting an incredible marketing campaign or a marketing moment are.

[Bozema St. John]

Oof. It probably has to start with curiosity, like deep curiosity for the moment, you know, because I think the thing that.

[Emma Grede]

Happens for the moment in the culture. You mean for the moment in time.

[Bozema St. John]

Right now, there are marketing campaigns that were so successful along my career that I can check off and like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. That would not work today. Yes. You know, and there are things that are going to happen tomorrow and in five months and in 10 years that I don't know yet. And the key to being successful in those moments is deep curiosity about what is happening right now. People always want to say, oh, what happens in five years? And that's why I don't make those plans. Because I'm like, if you plan for that, you're going to fail, you know, because how would you know what's going to happen in five years?

[Emma Grede]

Very interesting.

[Bozema St. John]

I remember in 2020, right at the start of the pandemic, I took a job. My job at Netflix, which became. I didn't know then, but was gonna become my last corporate job. And Are you sure?

[Emma Grede]

Both.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, I'm positive. Although, who knows what happens?

[Emma Grede]

Who knows? You don't know. You don't know, girl, I don't know.

[Bozema St. John]

I don't know. Five years, maybe I changed my mind, but I remember.

[Emma Grede]

So you do have a little bit of a plan.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, girl. It's more of a feeling.

[Emma Grede]

It's a feeling.

[Bozema St. John]

It's a feeling.

[Emma Grede]

It's a feeling. We know that you go by your.

[Bozema St. John]

Gut, but, you know, the thing is that, like, I kept having these conversations with all these senior leaders who. Yeah, everybody's panicking, right? And they're just like, oh, my God, we're gonna do our Strat plans that we did for three years and for five years are in the shitter because we don't know what to do, and everything is shut down and blah, blah. And people are waiting for two weeks, and then they're waiting for six months. And it was like, oh, my God, a year has passed. And it was only the people who were like, okay, what do we do today?

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, that won.

[Bozema St. John]

That were winning.

[Emma Grede]

That won.

[Bozema St. John]

And so my point is that, like.

[Emma Grede]

Again, you are so right about that. The only thing that had cut through in Covid, like, the things that were ingrained in the moment.

[Bozema St. John]

In the moment? Yes, in the moment.

[Emma Grede]

Covid marketing was special.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my gosh.

[Emma Grede]

And let me tell you, them days.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, look, that's where you separated the goods from the greats, you know?

[Emma Grede]

Ain't it the truth?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Because you had to be unafraid of being totally in the moment and not worrying about what happens in three months.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, and being like, okay, well, maybe we are all outside again in three months, and maybe we're not. But today we are inside.

[Emma Grede]

We're inside.

[Bozema St. John]

And so this is what we're gonna do today.

[Emma Grede]

And this is the feeling. This is what we have to grab on.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Okay. So being, like, a of piece obsessed with the culture and the moment, that's the thing.

[Bozema St. John]

That's curiosity.

[Emma Grede]

Deep curiosity.

[Bozema St. John]

Curiosity about people, about the moment. About, like, the product. Deep curiosity about this very moment in time and what everybody is doing around this moment. And if you have that, you can craft anything that will win.

[Emma Grede]

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[Bozema St. John]

Ah. I mean, look, I think that. Not. I think I know that I wouldn't do this all over again. Not because I'm ashamed or I don't like it, or that I haven't had a great time in this career. I certainly have. But why not do something else? You know? It's like, why would I not explore a different avenue? Like, if right now God came down and said, bo, you have the choice at this moment. You can retain all this information you have right now and start over, do it again and be like, nah, give me something else, and I'm gonna become a prima ballerina, you know, or an Olympic, like, gymnast.

[Emma Grede]

I really enjoy you as both, actually.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it'd be fantastic. You know what I mean? Why not? You know, I do something else? And it is again, not because, like, I'm not enjoying this and I don't think I'm great at it or that I'm having a good time, but it's just like. Like the idea that we have so many destinies and that you're simply just choosing one and going with that is what I firmly believe. I believe I would have been great at any number of things. No doubt. It's happened and it's happening.

[Emma Grede]

Was there a cost?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. For you? Oh, for sure.

[Emma Grede]

Because when I got that, when I heard that, I kind of equated it with the fact that it had been so hard, that you had broke so many barriers, that you had, you know, completely, I guess, changed the way that we think about who gets to have those jobs that had been so heavy and so hard on you that you wouldn't do it again?

[Bozema St. John]

No, no, it wasn't. It. It wasn't that at all. Because I actually think that regardless of the past, I would have had that anyway. That it would have cost me that anyway, you know, and that's not a morbid thing for me. I think that is simply where I am, where my spirit is. And this time that I'm in, you know, that regardless if I wanted to be the prima ballerina or the Olympic gymnast, that I would have had to have given up a lot. I would have had to bear the scars of, like, a lot of wounds. I believe that that would have been my journey anyway.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And I don't feel badly about that, actually.

[Emma Grede]

No. Have there been a lot of trade Offs for you?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, a ton of them. Some of the simple things are things that you probably assume, like relationships, you know, both romantic and platonic. I would say in some regard, privacy. And also maybe some naivete about people. Yes. And about way things are. Yes. You know, that.

[Emma Grede]

That's hard to know until you're in those situations. I mean, how would you. How would you know?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. So it's like, you know, how good and how bad people can be is an innocence that sometimes I wish I still had, but I don't have that. Cause I've seen it.

[Emma Grede]

You've seen the other side of it. You know that, Amy.

[Bozema St. John]

It's gross. Yes. And scary.

[Emma Grede]

And very scary.

[Bozema St. John]

Very, very scary.

[Emma Grede]

Very scary. You speak about, like, your gut guiding you, and I wonder if your gut has ever led you wrong. No, it hasn't.

[Bozema St. John]

Never.

[Emma Grede]

I feel like as a woman, I always lean in to my gut.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

But it hasn't always been exactly right.

[Bozema St. John]

Really?

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, there's been. I definitely feel like there's been a couple of times I was like, well, that decision was a little off key. But I don't know. Like, I look at you, like. Yeah, Like, I feel. No, I feel like more specifically for work, sometimes I feel like I've let ego. You know, it's like I'm on a run, I'm on a tear, and I'm like, pound, pound, pound. Oh. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I've bitten off more than.

[Bozema St. John]

But that's. That's different.

[Emma Grede]

Or. But, you know, my gut told me to do it. Like, I was following my, you know, I was following my intuition. I was following what I felt was the right thing to do for me, and it wasn't for whatever reason.

[Bozema St. John]

See, now, for me, I do separate, like, sort of my intuition, my ego, and, you know, desires.

[Emma Grede]

Well, tell me how you think about that.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, well, because I don't think that desire and intuition are the same thing.

[Emma Grede]

No, they are not.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, and ego and intuition, those are so many layers. And intuition is so pure that it can't lead you wrong. I think sometimes what happens for us is that we do let our ego lead or our desires lead, and we mask it as intuition. And it's not. And that's when you have to be honest with yourself and be like, actually, that was not my intuition. That was my ego. That was not my intuition. That was my desire. Facts. That was not my intuition. That was my hope.

[Emma Grede]

Hope, Hope.

[Bozema St. John]

That ugly, terrible thing, hope. You know what I mean? It's like I Plenty of that. Yeah. You know, your intuition is not that. I do believe that. My intu has often screamed at me, and I have made a different decision. But my intuition, when listened to, never has led me wrong.

[Emma Grede]

You ever get into one of these dream positions and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be?

[Bozema St. John]

Of course. Every single one.

[Emma Grede]

Really? What do you mean, every single one?

[Bozema St. John]

There hasn't been one.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Bozema St. John]

No, that's the truth.

[Emma Grede]

Well, because they're always something else.

[Bozema St. John]

There's always something. There's always something. But by the way, that doesn't mean that, like, I feel like it was the wrong thing. It was just that, like, you know, you walk in and you're just like, ooh, this is gonna be fantastic. And then it's like, maybe not. You know what I mean? But the thing is that it's always.

[Emma Grede]

What do you do? Are you the type of person that goes, I'm gonna change that, or are you accepting of what it is and you work within it?

[Bozema St. John]

Okay, so again, here's a controversial thing.

[Emma Grede]

Give it to me.

[Bozema St. John]

It's always about me. So what is it that I'm learning?

[Emma Grede]

I'm just gonna.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm like, no, but what am I learning from this thing? You know, Look, I've been accused of a lot of things, and this again goes back to, like, you know, people have said that I am selfish in my jobs, you know, that I come in and that I care more about myself than the brand, and they are corrupt. You could say that about me all day long, and I will never deny it.

[Emma Grede]

I think you have to.

[Bozema St. John]

You have to be selfish. What are you talking about when people say that? I was always so confused. Oh, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. I am. What are you even talking about? They're like, oh. But it used to be, like, a huge criticism that people thought they were getting me for, to be like, you know, well, you shouldn't hire her because, you know, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. She loves herself more than she loves this company. You are goddamn right.

[Emma Grede]

So what was your retort to that? Like, how'd you get the job anyway?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, because I'm the best and what I do, and I have the confidence of that. So if you want to make this company better, you're gonna hire me. And you know why I'm so good? Because I know I'm so good. That's because I put myself first, always. And so when I'm in the job, I'm like, no, I don't think that this company is better than me. I think this company's gonna teach me to make me better than I am today. And I'm going to make you better because I am in the pursuit of making myself.

[Emma Grede]

And you can do the two things.

[Bozema St. John]

Absolutely. But they go hand in hand. They have to be.

[Emma Grede]

Of course they go hand in hand.

[Bozema St. John]

They have to be. Of course they go hand in hand. If I. So I get to Uber. Okay. Hired by Travis Kalanick, who's the founder and CEO.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, Travis was out, right?

[Bozema St. John]

Travis was out two weeks after I started. Ok. But I come into the company and we had a very honest conversation.

[Emma Grede]

And you were Travis's choice. Yes. So you were hired by Travis and then Travis is out two weeks later.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right. That's right.

[Emma Grede]

So then you're the person. Everyone's like, yeah, yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

They're looking at me crazy. Okay. But the thing is that, like, I was very honest with Travis. I was like, hey, look, like, you know, I had. Was coming off of, like, big wins off of Apple. Right. And I said, look, your company's in trouble and I can help you turn around this brand, because I know what I'm doing when it comes to crafting brand stories and being able to position things to people in a way that they had perhaps not thought about. And the way you're talking about this company is just wrong. You know, you're talking about tech, tech, tech. And they care about emotion, emotion, emotion. And so we're gonna craft it differently, but in doing so, I am going to be in the front. I'm the one who's gonna tell everybody, and I'm going to make myself better because I'm going to be crafting it every single day.

[Emma Grede]

And you say this in the interview, like you're saying this as you're going through the rungs of Uber to get hired.

[Bozema St. John]

You have to be honest.

[Emma Grede]

And they're accepting that.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Because the problem people have is that they come in and they lie.

[Emma Grede]

Did you. Do you think you've ever lost out on roles going in with that same rhetoric?

[Bozema St. John]

No.

[Emma Grede]

Did you think you went somewhere else, that you didn't end up working? They were like, no, Bos, this is about.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, you know why? You know why? Emma, I'm gonna tell you this. This is gonna sound crazy too. Okay. Because I've never had to interview for a job that I knew I wasn't gonna get.

[Emma Grede]

Oh.

[Bozema St. John]

I mean. I mean, you know what I mean. No, it's true. Because the people have come looking for me. I don't know.

[Emma Grede]

So at that point, you know, you're in.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. So why should I lie to you? You came here, asked me about what you want me to do for you, so why would I lie to you?

[Emma Grede]

So you're like, I'm gonna be the front person. I'm gonna be the one that takes this message.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Emma Grede]

And I'm gonna put it out there, and I'm gonna put me in the center of it.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Emma Grede]

And that's what you do.

[Bozema St. John]

You're talking about me. And so when that New York Times cover came out and said, is this the woman that will save Uber?

[Emma Grede]

I remember it. Yeah, I remember it.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right. And I'd like somebody to argue and be like, oh, she shouldn't have been. It should have been an engineer. Should have been this person. No, fuck that. It was me. Because how else was the company gonna change? Wasn't that. Something's wrong with the algorithm. It wasn't there something wrong?

[Emma Grede]

No, no. We were all getting our taxis on time. Everybody was getting it.

[Bozema St. John]

So that was fantastic. The engineers were beautiful, amazing, innovative, smart. The smartest in the business, I believe.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, it was the reputation. It was like. It was the brand.

[Bozema St. John]

And what was I, the Chief Brand Officer? And so why would my face not be on there?

[Emma Grede]

And you only stayed there for a year, though.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, a year ago.

[Emma Grede]

What happened? You just were like, oh, it was chaos.

[Bozema St. John]

Gotta go. Chaos.

[Emma Grede]

It was chaos.

[Bozema St. John]

And again, this is why I'm saying it has to be about me and it has to be about you. Because at some point, the apple cart was upset, and I knew that if I didn't save myself, I would drown. Not because the company was gonna drown, but because I was gonna drown. And so sometimes you do have to make the decision. It's time to.

[Emma Grede]

You just have to know when it's time to leave.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And it's just like, look, the company's gonna go public and this is gonna happen, and that's gonna happen, and these. This money is gonna come and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, no, stay here one more day and I die. And that's not worth it to me.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Bozema St. John]

Because also, it's like, again, this goes back to the whole confidence of it all. I'm like, well, I can get another job. There's all kind of people calling me on the side.

[Emma Grede]

And you never worried about reputation. You were like, no, because your reputation was intact.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, my reputation is my worth.

[Emma Grede]

So what do you think when you look at this? Again, extraordinary career what are the things that you got right? Like, when you think about. Because you clearly got a lot right, you don't have those jobs with those companies one after the other after the other.

[Bozema St. John]

It's like, and be trash.

[Emma Grede]

And be trash or even be mediocre or even be like, you know, have a massive team because you can't take. It's not like you take the people from Apple and put them at Uber and the people from Uber and put them at WME and so on and so forth. So what do you think you got right?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, I think I got leadership right very early.

[Emma Grede]

Okay.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, being able to move a group of people and have them believe. But again, this goes back to storytelling, because my storytelling isn't just about the external story, but it's the internal story.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, it's just as important. Yes, Just as important.

[Bozema St. John]

And so, again, just using the example of Uber, it's like, when I got there, people at the company didn't want to wear their Uber T shirts at the grocery store. They didn't want to wear. We went to cocktail parties and went to tell people that they worked at the company. And so the internal story was actually more important than the external story. And so it's like the storytelling of, like, why it's important for you to do the work and to do your job really well was critical.

[Emma Grede]

Critical.

[Bozema St. John]

And I would even tell you this, which is, you know, a very hard story, but when I left Pepsi to go to Beets, which was just after Peter had died, an article had come out that said, you know, Pepsi's Bozeman St. John going to Beats by Dre, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, it was like, you know, in the industry, it was just like almost like a step down, right?

[Emma Grede]

Oh, it was seen as a step down because Beats wasn't Beats at that point.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, and Pepsi is like Pepsi's Pepsi marketing king, you know? Yep. And it's like, if you wanted to have a career as a marketer, that's not what you would do. You know, you would stay at Pepsi and rise. In any case, I was in intense grief. My reputation was really big because of the things I'd done with Beyonce and the Super Bowl. And, you know, there was, like, Bruno Mars and Katy Perry and, like, it.

[Emma Grede]

Was glory days, like Gaga.

[Bozema St. John]

It was hit after hit after hit. And so I'm coming in, and the marketing team is fledgling, you know, but there is a group of them. That's why we 50 people or so. And there are people from all other corners of the company who are coming in, crowding into the boardroom to hear me talk for the first time and say what we are going to do about, you know, Beats Music and how we're going to take over the industry, right? And in the morning, I wake up and I'm just like, I can't stop crying. I've left my daughter in New York. I'm terrified. All of the grief and the sadness is still there. It's very raw. And I'm thinking, what am I gonna tell these people? Cause I don't even know what I'm talking about. Like, I don't know what the future of music is. I don't even know what. I don't know about this technology. And so I'm walking into the boardroom and, like, sweating. My armpits are itching, and I'm like, oh, my God, like, what am I even gonna say? And I decided to tell them the story about what my last year had been like, what the last six months had been like, what the last three months had been like.

[Emma Grede]

Ok?

[Bozema St. John]

And I said, I am a new widow, and I can barely breathe. And every time I open my eyes, I'm looking at a nightmare. Not just of, like, the past six months, but the next six months. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm here because I'm desperate. I have to win. I have to win in this job. I have to win in my career. I don't have any other options. And so who's with me?

[Emma Grede]

I'd be dying. I want to work for that lady.

[Bozema St. John]

I won an army that day.

[Emma Grede]

Of course you did. Of course you did.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, and even to the point where last year, I.

[Emma Grede]

Because you showed them your vulnerability. You showed them your true self, but you showed them that you could not lose.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And I would not.

[Emma Grede]

You had to come here and be excellent.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Like who? Like, you know, it was like, in that moment, yes, of course, I was being vulnerable and I was telling people what was happening, but also I was telling them that I was going to scrap. I was going to fight for this, and I had to win. So if you want to win, then you're with me. Don't go with the person who's over here trying to get a paycheck. I'm not just here for a paycheck. I have to win. For my own survival, I have to win. And with that, that story is what then allowed me to lead a group of people who had to break down doors, who had to do things sometimes wrong, who didn't know what was gonna happen in six months, who had to convince Apple that we should be acquired, who had to walk into Cupertino and all those people who thought they were better than us and show them that actually we had a point of view.

[Emma Grede]

You need us.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And so my version of leadership is that. And I think that's what I got right a lot. And therefore I was able to walk into room after room after room after room and convince people that they should follow me, they should do their work and do it well, do it better than anybody else.

[Emma Grede]

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[Bozema St. John]

I feel.

[Emma Grede]

Like your presence is and has been. Is. Has been will continue to be a challenge for some people.

[Bozema St. John]

Right?

[Emma Grede]

You are in rooms where you show up with the earring and the top and the stomach and all the things and you're unapologetic.

[Bozema St. John]

You should ask the housewives.

[Emma Grede]

When you can stand with the housewives and make the housewives look a little dull. Like, then, you know. But I'm talking about when you're in a boardroom and you are turning up as your whole self. So how do you manage the criticism and still show up as yourself so unapologetically?

[Bozema St. John]

You know what? Okay, now the. I keep saying things. I know that it sounds simple and it's.

[Emma Grede]

No, I'm just gonna put together like a real Justin.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm like, this is real time, y'.

[Emma Grede]

All.

[Bozema St. John]

Real talk about. Here's the thing. No, but you have to be. Not you. I have to be so in love with myself that nothing anybody says is ever gonna pierce that veil. It is the same way I was at 13 when I look at myself and I'm just like, God, you are. Your nose is perfect, your hair is amazing. You're so damn funny. You're so smart. Why are they not laughing at the jokes. Why do they say that your hair is too nappy? Why do they say that? So weird.

[Emma Grede]

They must be blind.

[Bozema St. John]

So weird.

[Emma Grede]

And you really think that? And you really believe that?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, I really believe that.

[Emma Grede]

So what do you do? I'm sure you must have friends, women colleagues, people that have worked for you over the years who don't have that. How do you take, like, just the little pinky of pose and do that for yourself?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, here's the thing. I'll actually give it to you like this, which is. I do that with my daughter. Right. I remember once. Oh, my gosh, Emma. I was in Target once. Okay, no fault of Targets, but I was in Target, and my daughter. My daughter was probably two, maybe three, and she was sitting in the front part of the cart pushing it, and we were. I don't even know what I was shopping for, but we're walking, and I was looking at her, and I was just like, gosh, you're so pretty, you know? I was like, you're so, so pretty. And this woman turns to me, and she was just like, you know, you should tell her she's smart, not just pretty, because girls need to know they're smart. Whew. The way I rounded on this person, and I was like, how dare you? How dare you? She knows she's smart, but the world is going to tell her she's not pretty. And it is my job to instill within her every day that she's beautiful. And not just beautiful, the most beautiful. This morning when I woke up, my daughter, okay, she's now almost 16. Girl, 16. All right. The alarm goes off, and I'm just like, does she have ears? I don't understand what's going on.

[Emma Grede]

Shake him to wake up. Gets to that age.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. And I'm like, well, yell. It's time to wake up. And she, like, rolled over, and I just looked at her face, and I was like, God, you're so beautiful. I was like, look at this nose. It's like. It's mine, by the way. So gorgeous. It's like. And that chin. That's a St. John chin. That's not mine, but it's gorgeous. And look at these cheekbones. Now that's your grandmother. She got those cheekbones. And you got them, too. That's so great. Yeah. She's just, like, laying there. She's like, mom. And I'm like, you know, but the thing is that, like, I. And she. And other women, you have to be so in love with yourself. And, yes, I'm Using beauty as just one of the things. But it's like you have to deeply love yourself in order to withstand the criticism that will come to you. Because everybody will criticize you. Your family will, your friends will. Your business associates will. The world will, Social media will. We know that for sure. But you've got to be so in love with yourself that you turn and look at that criticism and say, why would they think that? And it has to be so foreign to you and so shocking that you cannot accept it, because why would you. It doesn't make any sense. They must be crazy. And you have to get to that level. And so if you're not there, do it. That is the assignment.

[Emma Grede]

Practice. Do it every day.

[Bozema St. John]

Practice. You must do it. You must do it. You must look at yourself in the mirror. You must tell yourself until you believe it, you must do is not going to come from anybody else. I'm not going to be able to tell you. Like, here are the five steps to walking into a room with confidence. You must believe it. You must know that when you walk into the room, it is different because you are there. And if somebody else was there, it would not be the same. You must believe it. I believe it. I think I come into this podcast and it is different because I'm here.

[Emma Grede]

It is.

[Bozema St. John]

I know it is.

[Emma Grede]

It's just a fact. It's just a fact.

[Bozema St. John]

But you have to believe it. You have to believe it. You have to believe it. And if there's, like, one thing that I wish everybody would understand, it is that find it. Work on it. And until you do, nothing that you do will ever feel fulfilling. Because somebody's always gonna tell you that it's wrong. Somebody's always gonna tell you you should have done differently. Somebody's gonna tell you that that sparkle doesn't work for you. And you wore it because you were like, I'm gonna wear this for bows, and it's gonna be cute and she's gonna love it. And I do. But you believe that, and that's why you put that on today. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't have put it on. If you didn't think that I wouldn't love it, you would have put it on.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, I was. I was raised that way, you know, I was raised looking in the mirror. First of all, with a. Let me just say this first of all, before I say looking in the mirror, I was raised just as you do with your daughter. My mom told me we were beautiful, that our curly hair was so beautiful. That my big two front teeth were the most beautiful. That my. You know, I have this huge birthmark that comes, like, right across my eye.

[Bozema St. John]

Do you really?

[Emma Grede]

Oh, my God. It's, like, so huge, like, right across my shoulder, right across my breast. And my mom said to me, you know, Emma, if I ever had to choose you just from your shoulders, I would know exactly which one you were. And in my head, I was like.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, that makes so much.

[Emma Grede]

That makes so much sense to me.

[Bozema St. John]

So much sense.

[Emma Grede]

Because I really believed it. And I do the same with my kids now. And of course, I talk about how smart they are. Of course I talk about how talented they are, and they could do anything that they want. But actually, for women, so much of how we feel is attributed to our looks.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

How we look, how we step into this world. And that's just a fact. Anyone who says any different is a liar.

[Bozema St. John]

Let me actually make this point, too, which is that I do think have to be specific, you know, I think otherwise, it just feels pithy, you know, if you're too broad about it, like, you're not just beautiful because you're beautiful. It's like, why?

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Why? Because of your birthmark.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

Because of your two front teeth. Because of your curly hair. You know? And that's why I'm specific when I'm telling Lael why she's beautiful. And I'm specific when I'm telling her why she's smart.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And I'm specific with the example so that she can pull on that.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

And recognized for herself.

[Emma Grede]

Well, because also, people will have specificity when they put you down. Right. Because I remember in school, it was always about this line in my lip, and they would come up with things. But my mom had already said to me, that line is the most beautiful line I've ever seen. I was like, you lot are dumb. I was like, this line is so special.

[Bozema St. John]

That's exactly.

[Emma Grede]

But again, the specificity is really important. I love you. I literally love you for saying that so much. I really do. All right, I'm gonna go back to marketing, because I do feel like I'm gonna rinse you for all of this information. I'm there. Don't you worry. I'm gonna get that. I'm gonna go slightly over, but I promise you I'll get there.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my gosh. We're having too much fun.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, we're having too much fun. We got so much to say in this whole thing. All right, let's talk about this. If someone is launching a brand Tomorrow. What is the first thing or what should they think about from a marketing point of view?

[Bozema St. John]

Okay. The first thing they should think about. Well, sorry, there's two. Sorry.

[Emma Grede]

No, that's all right. I love it.

[Bozema St. John]

Two things, and they are sort of like always the yin and the yang, which is that one. It's like, what is so special about the thing? There has to be something. Think of one thing that is special about the thing that you're launching or the brand that you're creating and sit on that, like. And make that the centerpiece. On the other hand, who are you talking to? Has to be very specific. Also, it can't be everybody, because that's just not how the world works. It's not the way that we talk. And so those two things together are then what's going to make the stability and the foundation of the brand. It will weather all of the storms and will help you to make decisions about the brand. So it's like, if it doesn't celebrate the one thing, if it doesn't talk to the one person, then that thing can't work and you don't do it.

[Emma Grede]

It's so simple. Yes, right.

[Bozema St. John]

It is.

[Emma Grede]

You're talking about what is usp, what is your audience? And really, really figuring those two things out. How do you even make a campaign that kind of sparks conversation and cuts through noise now when there's so much out there?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, man. Well, because it's. I think all it really takes, and I know, again, it sounds so simple, is that it has to be true to those two things, you know, because it's like everybody's like, oh, let's make a viral campaign. And it's like, good luck. First of all, it's like, what's gonna work for you is not gonna work for the person. I know everybody thinks they know this academically. They don't behave that way, you know? So I'm just like, well, what's special about this one thing? What's special about this mic right here and who is going to use it and then do make a campaign that talks to that. That talks to that specific thing that is so great about this and talks to the person that you're trying to talk to? And it has to be narrow. It is counterintuitive because you're like, you know, shouldn't we make this microphone for everybody with lips? Everybody who has a voice?

[Emma Grede]

Never. Never that.

[Bozema St. John]

No, you can't do that. And so. But it becomes difficult when you're like, oh, but I've gotta sell well.

[Emma Grede]

Cause People always imagine that you're shrinking your audience, Right? If you're making jeans for curvy bodies, people are. What about all the straight bodies? Don't worry about that.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

Have your spec, do your one thing, and do it perfectly and own that customer.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right. That's right. Because I always also compare it to, like, if you and I left here, right? And tomorrow night I'm at a cocktail party and you walk in, and now all of a sudden, you've got a Nashville accent.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I'll try.

[Bozema St. John]

And I'm like, who the hell is that? Oh, that's not Emma. You know what I mean? And then the person you talk to, they know you as your natural accent. And then they hear this conversation and they're like, what in the hell was she doing? What was that accent she was talking about? Now, they don't trust you, but it wasn't like you were lying to anybody. You said the same thing here, you said the same thing there. You didn't lie, but it was in your behavior. And so when you think about brands, it's like that, you know, what is the truth of the thing? And then say it honestly, because the person who you speak to with your beautiful accent is going to still understand you. So why did you have to switch it? Yeah, you didn't.

[Emma Grede]

No. It's so true.

[Bozema St. John]

Now they don't trust you.

[Emma Grede]

Now they don't trust you.

[Bozema St. John]

And that's what happens with brands all the time. But you're like, oh, I needed to connect with that person from Nashville. No, you could have done it with the accent you have, and you'd be fine.

[Emma Grede]

It's so true. So what do you do when things go wrong nowadays? Because we see so many brands put a foot wrong. And it's kind of also easy to offend in this, like, moment of social media, what should you do when you just.

[Bozema St. John]

Okay, you're moping the story now. Okay, here's the thing. All right, now, see, now I gotta get, like, psychological. So I'm just like, well, was it a mistake? Okay? Because first of all, you have to identify, was it a mistake, or were people just upset at your choice? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, if it was a.

[Emma Grede]

Mistake, we could take that one right to church right now.

[Bozema St. John]

Was it a mistake?

[Emma Grede]

Did you say something wrong? Or did people just not like it?

[Bozema St. John]

Or just people didn't like it, you know, because the truth is that, like, if you made a mistake, mistake, and you know it's a mistake, then you Apologize immediately.

[Emma Grede]

Apologize immediately and make corrective action immediately.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. But if you identify that it wasn't a mistake, people just don't like it, then you don't apologize. It works brilliantly for crisis management, by the way. It's like, did you do something wrong or did people just not like it? If you did something wrong, apologize right now. We don't just get up and start apologizing just because people didn't like it. But you didn't do anything wrong. You don't believe that. No. So then you're gonna behave differently.

[Emma Grede]

Exactly. Which is crazy. And you go back against everything that you believe in.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Emma Grede]

And no one trusts you. And it's all about trust at the end of the day. All right, now I'm gonna move on. And I'm dying to talk about this new business of yours.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my gosh.

[Emma Grede]

Cause when I saw the announcement of this, first of all, I was like, genius, genius, genius. Timing, timing, timing. Everything. All the things in a line that was perfect. But I am so happy that you have launched your own brand. It's called Eve by bows.

[Bozema St. John]

Is that right?

[Emma Grede]

Yes, that's right.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, you need to tell me everything. But the thing I impressed about is that you put your own money into this.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my gosh. How terrifying. Oh, my gosh.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, how terrifying.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, very, very terrifying. But also because I believe it, you know, so part of the reason why I started the company was because, you know, I love hair. Like, through and through. Okay. Always. Like, when I did the Apple keynote in 2016, and people were like, oh, my God, this new product, they also talked about my hair. You know, it's like when I was on the COVID of the New York Times and saying that I was the one who's gonna save Uber, I was in my long ass braids down to my ankles. You know, it's like, I have loved hair my entire life. And part of the challenge with the hair extension business is that it's just not made for women of color. For black women, we're not at the center, even though we make up 80%.

[Emma Grede]

Of the consumer, which is so wild, isn't it?

[Bozema St. John]

Isn't it?

[Emma Grede]

And is that just like. Is that a pure texture play or is it more nuanced than that?

[Bozema St. John]

No, it's more nuanced. It is a texture play, but it's also things like leaks, colors of lace. Correct.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, you're about to have a skew intensive situation out here. So you are gonna make different color.

[Bozema St. John]

Laces I have made different color laces. Wow. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

How many colors?

[Bozema St. John]

I've started with three right now, but I'll expand because literally today I was literally answering a customer question about another product I have, which is called Native Skin. And it basically is what you put inside of a wig inside of the lace to hide the knots and make it look like scalp. Got it right. And she was like, oh, between these two colors, so what do I do? And I was like, well, today what you're gonna do is that you're gonna use the product so you can hide the knots. Okay. In the lace, because that's the number one goal. Then you're gonna take your foundation and you are gonna color it a little bit. But don't worry, I'm coming with a shade for you.

[Emma Grede]

You're like, you know, I got you.

[Bozema St. John]

I mean, because why shouldn't I have 40 shades like we have in cosmetics should? But part of the problem was that these companies, these manufacturers just weren't doing it because they didn't feel a need to. You Google, like, how to, you know, tint my lace to be my complexion, you'll find 14 million videos of black women and women of color telling you how to do it. That's weird. So my question was like, but why do they have to do that? And so I went to. I went to Guangzhou as this knowing.

[Emma Grede]

Your hair doesn't take long enough already. I mean, I went to the center.

[Bozema St. John]

I went to the place with the biggest hair show in the world, Guangzhou, China. I went by myself and I.

[Emma Grede]

That's a lot.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, but I want to.

[Emma Grede]

But wait a minute. Because you are not manufacturing in China, right? Cause I heard that you are manufacturing in Ganga.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. So I built a factory.

[Emma Grede]

You built a factory?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Oh, goodness.

[Emma Grede]

You're self funding. You're building factories?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And processing all the. All the things. Wow. Well, because, like, I also felt like, look, you know, they may have the corner on the manufacturing of hair, right? The sourcing of it, all of that stuff. So I'm still sourcing from Asia, from all kinds of places in Asia. But I wanted to manufacture in Ghana because I feel like the people there and the people I've hired will better understand how to talk to and make things for people like me.

[Emma Grede]

I mean. I mean, it makes sense without a doubt. Yes, of course.

[Bozema St. John]

Why would I not do that? You know what I mean? It's like, of course.

[Emma Grede]

Well, I tell you why you wouldn't do that. Because there's like, cost implications.

[Bozema St. John]

She's like, Let me tell you, if.

[Emma Grede]

You want, But I admire you, and I think it's incredible that you would do that, because we know how passionate you are about that country, that region, about jobs, about supporting. So I admire it. But that is complex, and it's complex for your. Is this your first startup?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm also maniacal. I'm obsessed. I mean, of course you are obsessed. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. It's like, I want to understand how we are threading each, like, dot of lace. I want to understand the textures. I want to understand why it's shed. I want to understand what the colors are, what products are going in it. I want to understand how we wash it so they can't be allergic. For my sister, who has sensitivities with that, I want it to smell good because I don't like it when you take a fresh extension out of her hair and it smells like it.

[Emma Grede]

No, no one wants that. And it's right in the.

[Bozema St. John]

Also, I don't want it to be delivered to me in plastic. I spend way too much money on it.

[Emma Grede]

So you want it delivered another.

[Bozema St. John]

I want to deliver it.

[Emma Grede]

What are you gonna deliver it in?

[Bozema St. John]

Deliver it in a bonnet.

[Emma Grede]

Beautiful. Oh, perfect.

[Bozema St. John]

Which is sewn by women in Ghana who work at the factory. Made with fabric that I designed myself and printed at gtp, which is the original manufacturing plant for fabric in Ghana.

[Emma Grede]

Feels very personal, this piece to you.

[Bozema St. John]

It is.

[Emma Grede]

And that's why you were willing to put your own money in.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I don't want anybody to tell me what to do.

[Emma Grede]

But there was no. Because I feel like, again, you've built this reputation. You're now in the cast of Housewives. You could have gone out and raised money pretty easily, I would imagine.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, very much.

[Emma Grede]

Was there no temptation to do that?

[Bozema St. John]

There was. Now, here's where we come back to it. Tell me. I wanted to raise at first because of my ego. Ah.

[Emma Grede]

Cause you wanted to be able to be loved.

[Bozema St. John]

I raised. Oh.

[Emma Grede]

The mantra, blah, blah, blah. 50 million coming fresh out, all of these jobs. I got it most money.

[Bozema St. John]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, whatever.

[Bozema St. John]

And I was sitting there, girl, and it was tempting. I was like, I could. And I could also not. I could also raise and not make that headline. Yes. But I was like, but why am I doing that? What am I. What am I doing it for? I can fund it, so why do I need to.

[Emma Grede]

And you were in that position where you were like, I can fund it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Have you put a lot of money in. Yes. And a scary amount of money.

[Bozema St. John]

A scary amount of money. A scary amount of money. And I talked to my business manager about it. God bless her. Who was that?

[Emma Grede]

Was she supportive?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, no, no, no, of course not. No, of course. They never are.

[Emma Grede]

They literally never are.

[Bozema St. John]

She was like, why would you use your money to do this? What about that? Stupidity. And I was like, and again, this is why. Like, sometimes you gotta really understand if it's your guts or what. And I just felt called, you know, I was like, it has to be mine. Like, it has to be mine. It has to be my skin. In the game, I have to have people have to believe me that, like, I'm not taking anybody's money because I believe in this and it is mine and I'm going to make it for you because I love it that much. I'm willing to put everything in it. And I'm going to stitch every single thread through this. I'm going to test every single product. Not because I don't want to disappoint my investors, because I can't lose. It is the same speech that I gave in that office. I'm like, I will win because I got it to win, because I love it this much.

[Emma Grede]

I have no doubt. No doubt. There's nothing in me that's like. I'm like, let me invest. I have no doubt. And you're winning. Like, I'm here for it.

[Bozema St. John]

All the wigs, but I love it. I love it.

[Emma Grede]

All the bundles, all the pieces, and.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm making it for everybody. I love seeing it outside.

[Emma Grede]

You must it.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my God. Rebecca Minkoff called me and was like, hey, can I give some.

[Emma Grede]

Can we sell a shoe?

[Bozema St. John]

I was like, girl, it's not made.

[Emma Grede]

For you, but sure, you know what I mean?

[Bozema St. John]

I was like, I get it. Listen, whatever you want. The straightest texture I had. I was like, I hope it works.

[Emma Grede]

Ok. Little bit of flavor. Everybody needs it.

[Bozema St. John]

Erika Jayne, you know one of my castmates.

[Emma Grede]

Yes. Erika Jane. And she's amazing. Look, anyway, she knows how to wear some hair, that girl.

[Bozema St. John]

Let me tell you, Erika Jayne wears platinum. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, she's 13.

[Bozema St. John]

Okay.

[Emma Grede]

Do you have that color?

[Bozema St. John]

I'm making it right now.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, I love it.

[Bozema St. John]

I took her my first batch and I was like, here you go.

[Emma Grede]

Listen, that's a great ambassador. Listen, I watched you turn up on Housewives. First of all, I am obsessed. I'm the first person. Like, Housewives is my number one guilty pleasure of life.

[Bozema St. John]

I didn't know that.

[Emma Grede]

Beverly Hills followed by Atlanta followed by New York. I don't watch any of the others, but that's my jam.

[Bozema St. John]

No, no, no, you do not know that.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, no, I love it. It's almost like I like it. If I get, like a little bit sick and I can be like, I.

[Bozema St. John]

Gotta say home today.

[Emma Grede]

Honestly, it's. So when you turned up, first of all, I was dead. Then I was dead. Then I was like, no, no, she did not. Like, I could not imagine. I could not imagine.

[Bozema St. John]

I know I could not imagine. And everybody told me not to do it, by the way.

[Emma Grede]

Of course they told you not to do it, because they were like, how are you gonna go back and get one of these big ass jobs? Was this again, I know you don't plan, but did it feel in your gut, did this feel right to you? Like that was the right move to make for that moment in your life?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, it felt divine. It really did. And as much as anything in my life feels divine, you know, I think I told you this before where I was like, hey, look, like, I feel like the universe opens and I can feel it and all I have to do is walk in it. Like, I really. I'm telling you, like, I can feel it. I know it. And so this moment, it was like the chasm formed and I was like, oh, shit. Okay, this is where I'm going. That's where I'm supposed to go. And so again, it's like all those naysayers and the people are just like, oh, but your reputation. And like, oh, people are gonna laugh at you and they're gonna wonder why in the hell you would do this and go argue with women on tv.

[Emma Grede]

Well, but you don't. And that's.

[Bozema St. John]

I don't.

[Emma Grede]

No. But this is the issue.

[Bozema St. John]

That's not my thing.

[Emma Grede]

You're changing the energy of the housewives. Cause I feel like you came in with all of your intelligence and. And no yelling, no bickering, no reload.

[Bozema St. John]

Emma, Emma.

[Emma Grede]

Raising above it.

[Bozema St. John]

This is what we're talking about. Which is like, I believe in myself first.

[Emma Grede]

So you weren't coming in to join the castle. These housewives, you're like, I'm coming in as beaus to do beaus to be.

[Bozema St. John]

Bows, and I'm coming as me. And it doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter what has worked in the past, and it doesn't matter that, you know, people love, like, a quick comeback that will, like, slice somebody down and all that. I don't do that. I Don't know how to do that. And so I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do what I do.

[Emma Grede]

Do you think it aligns with your reputation and, like, as a storyteller?

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, I think it is my story right now. Because for a long time, I have told my story, my personal story, from a lens which looks backwards.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, yes.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, I think people would say that they know the story of me personally as a mother and as a widow, but they don't know my story right now. They don't know me personally. They don't know if I cook. They don't know if I drive. They don't know who I'm dating. They don't know how I mother. You know, I'm a good mother. You can see the product of my child, but you don't know how I do it. You don't know what my policies are. You don't know if I allow her to date. You don't know anything. And so we're learning.

[Emma Grede]

We're learning. I mean, we're literally.

[Bozema St. John]

That right now is the part of the storytelling that I want to deliver. And so it's like this platform allows me to do that.

[Emma Grede]

No, it really does. And I honestly, I have to tell you, Bose, I think you are showing up beautifully in that show. Like, I feel like everyone who watches you who kind of like, you know, knows you, is looking at that and being like, wow, she gives zero fuck. She is 100% herself.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, myself.

[Emma Grede]

But there's an element of pride in there because I think that as a black woman coming into that show, it's hard enough, but you are. You're just you.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

And you're coming in and you're doing it in such a kind of, like, higher orbit way.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm like, look at her.

[Emma Grede]

She is not going down to that level.

[Bozema St. John]

No, no, no, no.

[Emma Grede]

It's very interesting to see that because I think I'd be such a little bitch on that show. Like, I would.

[Bozema St. John]

Do you know what I mean? I would be in this.

[Emma Grede]

A conversation for another day.

[Bozema St. John]

They're like, go on. I'm like, so when are you coming on the show?

[Emma Grede]

Listen, Bo, I'm coming in with your friend.

[Bozema St. John]

This is my pitch. Yes. Perfect. I'll take it.

[Emma Grede]

It's too funny. Who do you think is the best businesswoman on Housewives?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, see, now, this is a hard one, because I'm looking at it not in terms of, like, what they have done that would make them succeed, but if I would hire them and I would Hire Dorit probably first.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, because she's the kind who will get obsessed.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, I can see that.

[Bozema St. John]

And will become very passionate about the thing. Like, if she believes in it, she's not letting it go.

[Emma Grede]

If you had to invest. If you had to invest in one of the housewives, who would you invest in? Doesn't need to just be.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, yeah. Today it would be Erika Jean facts.

[Emma Grede]

I mean.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Easy, easy. When you think about Housewives just as a franchise, and overall, do you think. Do you think that it stereotypes women or do you think it's empowering for women overall?

[Bozema St. John]

I'm sorry, today.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

Hmm. I think it stereotypes women today, but I think it has the potential to empower women. I think, you know, it's fallen into a little bit of a rut of complex arguments and disagreements that aren't founded in anything profound, you know? And so, by the way, my belief isn't that there shouldn't be any fighting on Housewives. I think that that's a natural part of friendship and who we are. Of course it's. Of course we have conflict.

[Emma Grede]

Of course it is.

[Bozema St. John]

I would prefer that the conflict is based on something with, like, real depth purpose and that it can be resolved or not with that same type of angle. You know, it's not like, oh, all the White Housewives have to get along. It has to be kumbaya, and everybody just has to get.

[Emma Grede]

That's not life. It's a reality show.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right. Yes. I'm like, we all have so much conflict in our lives all of the time. Like, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what happens next season. Right. And even for myself, and I'm like, gosh, there's so much happening in my life that there's. And there's conflict inside of my own life that I don't need to go and argue with somebody over the conflict. All it takes is for me to tell you what's going on. Yeah, sure. Maybe you agree or disagree. Right. I remember one area in particular, right, Where I was at dinner with Dorit and Erica, and we were talking about my.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, my God. Of course I watched the show. I know exactly what you're about to say. And then you tell them you haven't even said I love you.

[Bozema St. John]

And their reaction is like, what? Oh, I mean, look.

[Emma Grede]

And by the way, that was all of our reaction.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, of course. Everybody shook his reaction. Everybody was shook.

[Emma Grede]

They're like, what is she talking about? Is this trying to have a baby with this man, which is my Next question.

[Bozema St. John]

By the way. But that was an honest reaction. Yes. And by the way, Erica was like, absolutely not. Like, you know what wasn't seen on tv, right. Was that she was just like, oh, this is ridiculous. She was like, absolutely not. You cannot. Do not have another conversation about having a baby or doing anything serious without him telling you he loves you. And we got into a little bit of a conflict on that.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, you did?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. But that is a natural thing, and I think we should.

[Emma Grede]

Why didn't we see that?

[Bozema St. John]

I know, right? We should have seen that. There was so much to see.

[Emma Grede]

Bows and arrows.

[Bozema St. John]

There was so much going on, you know, I want to see. But the thing is that. But here's the thing. I trusted her disagreement because I know that she cares for me. And we don't have to agree on whether or not I think it was important that he says he loves me before I talk to him about having a baby. Cause we don't agree.

[Emma Grede]

We just don't agree.

[Bozema St. John]

But that's okay. And we can disagree on that. And we can disagree loudly, too, if we want to. Yes, yes. But the thing is that, like, we can also resolve it. Whereas now I'm just like, take that, Erica. You know what I mean? And she's just like, all right, all right. Maybe I was wrong.

[Emma Grede]

You know, I only have one more housewives question for you, because I'm obsessed. I could have done this whole thing about housewives. You did say that you were thinking about having another baby.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

And I just wonder, like, at this point in your life when it feels like you're starting a new business and you feel like the world is in front of you. Really? Really. Oh, you must have loved it.

[Bozema St. John]

And I'll tell you why. It's not just love. I suffered so much through my pregnancies. Of course. I had early preeclampsia. I have a protein S deficiency. I had to take injections. I had to take medicine. I lost my first child to it. There was just so much. Thank you. There was so much that I suffered with it. And so part of what has happened in the last 16 years is me convincing myself that I didn't want another one. It wasn't the reality of it, of course. Fear, understanding, trauma, grief, all of it. And I'm not saying that those things aren't protective. They are, because I was like, you know, actually, I don't want another child. I have one. I'm good. Like, I thank you, Lord, and I'm good with this one. But the truth of the matter Underneath it is that it did take love in order for me to uncover that maybe there was a little spark or something in there. When Keely said to me that he wanted to have a baby with me, and I looked at that man like he was out of his mind. And I said, oh, see, I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, what does that mean exactly? He's like, well, do you want one? And I was like, yes. I was like, but I can't. And he was like, why? I'm like, I've been sick, and I've had this and I've had that. And he was just like, well, could we ask a doctor? Could we talk to somebody who could tell us definitively whether or not you can't? And I was like, okay, but they're not gonna, like, get rid of my fear. And I was wrong.

[Emma Grede]

They did.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. And so when I met Dr. Cindy Duke, who's an amazing fertility doctor, and she's talking to me about the realities of preeclampsia, my age, my, you know, like, health, like, what the last 16 years of hypertension have done to my heart, like, all of those things, and she gave me the confidence that it's possible. Man, I'm telling you, I cried that day.

[Emma Grede]

I bet you did.

[Bozema St. John]

A lot of tears.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Because I had carried around a lot of guilt and a lot of trauma over 16 years. And I said, okay, well, then, like, all I can do is try, you know? Maybe I will, so maybe I will. And so I'm gonna do everything I can to see if I can.

[Emma Grede]

We're gonna be watching both girls. We're gonna be hoping for you. Listen, thank you. We will be. So I guess my question to you is, at this point in your life, it's like you've had all the big jobs, You've had the cultural moments, you're starting a new business, you're on my favorite show. Most important thing, you're raising this beautiful little daughter, and you've got all the hope in the world for what your future could hold. What's important to you now? And what does the future hold?

[Bozema St. John]

What's important to me now? You remember when I was telling you about, like, you know, the universe just opening, Right? It's not this universe. It's like, God, you know, that I just. I just want to do what is set out for me to do. Sometimes it feels like I'm drinking from a fire hose because it's so big, but it's so exciting. And every day something happens, and I'M just like, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of this life. I mean, how wonderful, how amazing is it to be able to sit and commune with the universe, with God, and just be like, okay, what am I supposed to do now? And get answers. It is a masterful, beautiful thing. And I wish everybody could feel that way. I feel anointed that way. People are like, oh, you're glowing. I'm like, yes, because that's just my destiny, like, showing up in my face like, I'm so happy in this life.

[Emma Grede]

That's a really beautiful thing to say. Yeah, that's just my destiny showing up in my face. I'm gonna steal that one.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, but it is. And the thing is that, like, look.

[Emma Grede]

That's so beautiful.

[Bozema St. John]

Bose, you know my story, like, it's not as if it's been a silver spoon. Oh, no, it's not as if it's just been, like, roses and, like, you know, diamonds all along.

[Emma Grede]

And, you know, Boaz, it's so funny. And I do wanna say this to you. I didn't ask you about those things for a reason. Because I think that, first of all, I'm a Bose fan. I read everything, I listened to everything. And I feel like where you are in your life at this point has to be celebrated. And so my focus was very intentional because it's not to ignore, because you have had an unbelievable life and you've had unbelievable tragedies, but it's more to pay respect to, like, where you're at and where you're going. And I think that that is really important.

[Bozema St. John]

And those things I can't predict. Okay. I can't say, like, oh, my gosh, nothing bad will ever happen to me again. I don't know. I've seen, like, the depth of things, and they're terrible and scary and I hope nothing, like, that happens again. But if I do, like, I have utmost faith that my life is going to be excellent regardless of those things that happen. And that's why I walk around with this smile. That's why I walk around with such optimism. That's why I walk around with such joy in the life that I live, regardless of the tragedies that happen, because I have faith that my life is going to be excellent.

[Emma Grede]

Mic drop? Both? No, I'm gonna do my quick fire round because I'm like, I just could. I could cry. You make me cry. You make me feel like I'm gonna cry like I'm in church all at once. It's very powerful. Oh, I Love you.

[Bozema St. John]

I love you. This is so fun.

[Emma Grede]

It's so true. All right, what is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning?

[Bozema St. John]

I pray.

[Emma Grede]

Really?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Every day.

[Bozema St. John]

Every day. I love that.

[Emma Grede]

What's the last thing you do before you go to bed?

[Bozema St. John]

I check my email.

[Emma Grede]

You do not.

[Bozema St. John]

I do.

[Emma Grede]

You're not supposed to do that with the phone and the light in your face.

[Bozema St. John]

It's literally slaying by the light.

[Emma Grede]

It's like, there.

[Bozema St. John]

By the way, Arianna Huffington once gave me, like, a phone bed. Do you remember when she was doing this? Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Giving her friends phone beds because she's.

[Bozema St. John]

Like, don't look at your tech, like, next to your face in your bed.

[Emma Grede]

Where's your phone bed, girl?

[Bozema St. John]

I don't know. It's in the closet somewhere. I probably threw it out. Sorry, Ariana. My bad.

[Emma Grede]

Sorry, girl. But, you know.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, I checked my email right before I go to work.

[Emma Grede]

I love that. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life?

[Bozema St. John]

Ooh, total world domination. Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

I want to be the greatest.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. I feel like you're. You're on the way. I have no. No doubt. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life? Oh, God.

[Bozema St. John]

Gosh. I think just the release of my trauma so that I can live a fully loving life.

[Emma Grede]

What is a book that changed your life?

[Bozema St. John]

The Artist's Way. It's almost like a workbook. So it's gonna tell you more about yourself than it is gonna tell you what to do.

[Emma Grede]

Literally buying it immediately. What is something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't know?

[Bozema St. John]

Ooh. I think maybe I really valued title, like, the title that I was given. I don't care about that so much anymore. I have so many of them.

[Emma Grede]

I was gonna say stacking them up.

[Bozema St. John]

That's why title, and they don't really matter. Power matters. I care more about power now than I care about the title.

[Emma Grede]

What's something that you value now that you didn't back then?

[Bozema St. John]

Ooh, freedom. I was so chained to my career, you know? But now I'm free to do whatever the hell I want to do. I didn't know that that was an important thing.

[Emma Grede]

It's amazing. Bose, I think you're the most. Most spectacular woman. I'm so happy that you would spend a couple of hours.

[Bozema St. John]

Thank you. I love you.

[Emma Grede]

You made my day.

[Bozema St. John]

I'm in this seat because you know what I mean? I just want to come anywhere now. Okay. I know. I'm just going places. Okay. I'm here. I know because you and I'm so proud of you. Thank you for what you're doing opening up this microphone. It's amazing.

[Emma Grede]

It means the world. Thank you both. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend who'd be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Keyser, Leah Rees Dennis, Asha Salouja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agarthy. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, My teams at jonesworks and wne. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me @aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelled G R E D A. That's Aspire A S P I r e with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emagreed me.