Creating Success Word by Word with Tracee Ellis Ross

Summary

Aspire with Emma Grede:

“Creating Success Word by Word with Tracee Ellis Ross”

Podcast: Aspire with Emma Grede
Host: Emma Grede
Guest: Tracee Ellis Ross
Date: October 28, 2025

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Overview

In this insightful and empowering episode, Emma Grede sits down with Tracee Ellis Ross—actress, entrepreneur, and founder of Pattern Beauty—to explore how being intentional with language and self-knowledge can help shape the trajectory of one’s life and career. Tracee shares her journey to self-assurance, the deep influence of her mother (legendary singer Diana Ross), the importance of purposeful manifestation, navigating independence and relationships, building a successful business outside of acting, and the personal philosophies and practical tools she relies on to design a fulfilling, authentic life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Journey to Self-Assurance and Intentional Living

• Self-Assurance is Built, Not Born

  • Tracee explains that her self-assurance was hard-won, not inherent.
    • “It took me a long time to get to know myself, to have the courage to be that person and then to live as that person has just come in the last, I would say six to seven years.” (02:28 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • She discovered, by reflecting on childhood interests (like dog-eared magazine pages), that she "became the woman she always envisioned."

• Manifestation and the Power of Language

  • Tracee consciously manifests her desires by being intentional with language.
    • “I manifest really quickly. So I have to be intentional about what I language and the words that I use.” (05:11 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • She uses therapy as a space to clarify and articulate what she wants.

• Balancing Intention with Surrender

  • Tracee believes in being clear-headed about desires while realizing not everything is in her control:
    • “Even more than that, understand the balance of what is not in my hands and...allowing things that are better than I could have imagined.” (07:09 - Tracee Ellis Ross)

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Upbringing, Family, and Modeling Agency

• Growing up with Diana Ross

  • Tracee had an “abundant, unusual childhood,” with artists like Andy Warhol and Marvin Gaye as regular figures.
  • Diana Ross the “Supermom”:
    • Managed to be present as a mother while handling an intense career:
      • “My mom is a mom before she is anything else…she would put us to bed at night, then go record...wake us up in the morning and sit with us for breakfast.” (08:56 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
      • “People say you grew up in your mom’s shadow. I feel that I grew up in her embrace.” (10:01 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • Tracee learned from her mother to stand on her own, seeing a template where “you could only be one and not the other was not true in my childhood.” (10:02)

• Lessons on Work and Agency

  • Dreaming big is important, but “know that you’re the one that’s gonna be doing the work.” (11:23 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • Diana Ross encouraged her kids to use her knowledge as a foundation, not as a limit.

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Money, Independence, and Relationships

• Financial Advice & Building Her Own Wealth

  • Diana’s advice: “Either you’re gonna have to get yourself a really rich husband or a really great job.” (12:59 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • Tracee chose the latter: “I’ve built a really big, beautiful life. And I’ve had a big job. I keep having big jobs.” (13:09 - Tracee Ellis Ross)

• On Being Single and Dating Choices

  • Tracee is often presumed to be a "poster child" for singledom but says, “That’s just the facts. I also don’t publicize when I am dating.” (16:14)
  • She won’t date “just to have someone”; her choices are intentional:
    • “I’m gonna date a person that’s a match. I’m not gonna date just to date someone.” (17:03 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • Navigating questions about marriage and children:
    • “Will you please get out of my womb?” (17:36 - Tracee Ellis Ross, on invasive questions about having kids)
  • Her solo travel show is an extension of her philosophy of living fully without waiting for “someday.”

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Advice for Younger Women

• Challenge Conditioning

  • “Is that what you want? Or is that some tape in your head from somebody else?” (23:15 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • She wishes she’d spent more time “dreaming of my life” rather than her wedding (23:37).

• How to Reflect and Know Yourself

  • Tracee shares practical self-discovery tools:
    • Journaling daily with questions like, “How did I honor myself today? What went well? What didn’t?” (35:18-36:12)
    • Review and highlight the emotional “Whoppers,” then ask what feelings and situations she truly wants to build around.
  • “It’s very hard to know what you like if you don’t know who you are.” (25:59 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • She recommends, “Start small. What did I like about today? What felt good?” (27:04)
  • “We can't be responsible for our first thought, but we can definitely be responsible for our second one.” (34:34 - Tracee Ellis Ross)

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Embracing Imperfection and Emotional Wholeness

• Not Just Positive Thinking

  • Tracee rejects superficial positive thinking:
    • “I am not a believer in the ask and it’s given thing of positive thinking. I am a believer in a sense of wholeness for myself.” (29:21)
  • Makes “space for being afraid...for pain...for mistakes”—not pushing feelings away but acknowledging and moving through them.

• The Practice of "May I"s versus "I am"s

  • Instead of affirmations, she asks herself, “May I…?”
    • “May I instead of I am feels like it honors where I am and invites me to where I want to go.” (32:50 - Tracee Ellis Ross)

• Handling Challenging Moments

  • On carrying on during loss and tough times:
    • "I've had to be my funniest on my worst days." (29:21)
    • She leans on her support system and transparent communication.

• Flipping Negatives into Prayers

  • Tracee writes out fears or resentments, flips them into positive “prayers” or intentions, and returns to them when needed.
    • Example: “May I remember that I am worthy of belonging and connection.” (38:21-39:22)

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Entrepreneurship and Building Pattern Beauty

• Origins as a Consumer

  • Tracee built Pattern Beauty as a solution for a problem she experienced her whole life: a lack of effective, affirming products for textured hair.
    • “I am a consumer...my entire childhood and life around hair products, there was something missing.” (45:58 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
  • It took 10 years to bring the brand to shelves, after numerous setbacks and industry skepticism.
    • “I wrote my first hair care brand pitch when Girlfriends finished...it took 11 years to get on shelves.” (47:29-47:41)
    • “This was 10 years and nobody thought it should be coming from me. This was before celebrity brands existed.” (47:50)

• Resilience in the Face of "No"

  • Tracee developed a system to process and learn from rejection:
    • “Do you agree? Is the no because you agree? Maybe your idea isn’t good enough. Do you not agree? ...Is it because you didn’t express yourself in a clear way...Every no brought me closer.” (51:28-51:59)

• Business Strategy & Leadership

  • Majority owner, with business partners providing capital and operations.
    • “I'm majority owner and I have full creative control.” (54:17)
  • Tracee’s strengths lie in storytelling, vision, and creativity, while she partners with experts for operations and scaling.
  • She follows a slow and steady, disciplined approach, not seeking rapid, risky expansion:
    • “I would prefer to do less and do it right than do more and do it sloppy.” (60:09)
    • "No is a complete sentence, and a small no is a big yes." (69:10-69:14)

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On Growth, Scaling, and Legacy

• Purpose-Led Growth

  • Tracee focuses on growth strategies that align with her vision and the brand’s value to its community—not just financial expansion.
    • “What is the initial value proposition and the mission and vision of the brand? If ours is to exceed the needs of this community, right, how do you continue circling back to that?” (63:04)

• Change in Perspective on Success

  • Her goals have evolved from simply launching the brand to considering new options for scaling and impact.
    • “Part of what’s happened recently is I’m like, okay, so now what are the options?” (67:08)

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Personal Philosophy, Aging, and Women’s Empowerment

• The Wisdom of Aging

  • “May you be comfortable in your skin. Find what makes your heart sing. Discover your purpose and be of service.” (77:58 - Tracee Ellis Ross on her legacy)
  • On youth: “I would not go back...It only gets better. The physicality is fascinating...But emotionally and spiritually, it is just delicious up here.” (79:02-79:46)
  • The culture’s obsession with youth is misplaced: “That should not be called leadership. That's embarrassing.” (81:49)

• Advice to Young Women

  • “Hang in there, honey. It’s gonna be okay.” (78:47 - Tracee Ellis Ross to her younger self)

• Celebrating Women's Progress

  • Tracee is inspired by women who “defy systemic prescriptions and expand the real estate of what is possible.” (80:46)
  • She sees “shared leadership” as the future, with collective benefit and culture expansion.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "I manifest really quickly. So I have to be intentional about what I language and the words that I use." (05:11 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
• “Dream big, but know that you’re the one that’s gonna be doing the work.” (11:23 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
• "People say you grew up in your mom’s shadow. I feel that I grew up in her embrace." (10:01 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
• "Will you please get out of my womb?" (17:36 - Tracee Ellis Ross, on intrusive questions about having children)
• "It’s very hard to know what you like if you don’t know who you are." (25:59 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
• "We can't be responsible for our first thought, but we can definitely be responsible for our second one." (34:34 - Tracee Ellis Ross)
• "If you look at a wine bottle and you don’t know better you would think, why didn’t they fill this up? Because that air is what makes space for the wine to be the wine." (69:10 - Tracee Ellis Ross, on the importance of saying 'no' and creating space)
• "No is a complete sentence, and...a small no is a big yes." (69:10)
• “Hang in there, honey. Oh, hang in there, honey. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be okay.” (78:47 - Tracee Ellis Ross to her younger self)
• “May you be comfortable in your skin. Find what makes your heart sing. Discover your purpose and be of service.” (77:58 - On her desired legacy)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:28 – Tracee describes her long journey to self-assurance
• 05:11 – On manifesting quickly and being careful with language
• 08:56–10:01 – Her relationship with her mother; growing up in an amazing, unconventional home
• 12:59–13:09 – Learning to create her own financial independence and start a business
• 23:15 – Advice for young women: challenge social “tapes” around marriage and family
• 25:59 – The importance of knowing yourself to build a life you enjoy
• 29:21–32:50 – Embracing imperfection, manifesting desires, and the “May I” approach
• 35:18–36:12 – Journaling as a tool for self-understanding
• 38:21–39:22 – Transforming anxieties into tailored, healing prayers
• 45:58–47:41 – Founding Pattern Beauty as a consumer, not a celebrity
• 51:28–51:59 – Processing "no" and using it as fuel and learning
• 54:17 – Retaining majority ownership and creative control in business
• 60:09 – On slow, steady progress and discipline
• 69:10 – Saying 'no' to protect creativity and energy
• 77:58 – What her life message and legacy would be

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Tone & Language

The conversation is warm, candid, and layered with hard-won wisdom, humor, and actionable advice. Emma and Tracee keep the dialogue uplifting and real—open about challenges, systemic issues, and the emotional reality behind public images of confidence and success.

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Final Takeaways

• Building a life of purpose and joy starts with deep self-awareness, intentionality, and daily reflection.
• Creating success—personally and professionally—demands honest conversations with oneself, a willingness to learn from failure, and boundaries that protect what matters most.
• The best “playbook” isn’t about chasing formulas; it’s about designing your own, rooted in values, authenticity, and the courage to say “no” so you can say “yes” to what’s truly yours.
• Community and “chosen family,” as well as learning from other women’s wisdom, are central to sustaining fulfillment and resilience.
• Staying teachable, embracing the full emotional spectrum, and caring for yourself are essential for longevity and leadership in any field.

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For those looking for a detailed, practical, and perspective-shifting conversation about life design, leadership, and intentional living—this is an episode not to miss.

Transcript

[Emma Grede]

Tracee Ellis Ross is one of my favorite women and one of the most intentional business women I know. She reminds us that the best ideas take time to bake and that success isn't just about what you do, it's about how clearly you speak it into existence. This week on Aspire, Tracey shares how being deliberate with the way she speaks changed her mindset on everything. Family, aging, relationships and business. Over the next hour, Tracy is giving you the playbook to be who you are and get what you want. Introducing the new Eggo protein waffles. The same great Eggo taste people know and love. Now with 20% of your daily protein in every serving, protein never tasted this good. These waffles deliver an excellent source of complete protein with 10 grams per serving and are made with wholesome ingredients fresh from the griddle. Perfect as part of a complete breakfast. Eggo Protein Waffles pair easily with fresh fruit, almond butter, or whatever is already in the kitchen. They offer a delicious way to start the day with irresistible taste families are looking for. When something tastes this good and delivers this much protein, no one can say no. Head to your local grocery store to fuel your morning with Eggo protein waffles and pancakes. Available at retailers nationwide. This podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Lotion Tissues. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Tracey Ellis Ross. That's me that it's you. Thank you so much for being here.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm so happy to be here.

[Emma Grede]

I'm really lucky to have you here.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You are lucky. There were a couple birthday parties we've been at, like, yes, just a handful of times.

[Emma Grede]

And I'm like, wow, she is so unapologetically who she is. She is so full of life. She's designed this life. And it is to me, one of the most unbelievable things about you is this level of self assurance and how self possessed you are as a woman. And I think for so many women, that's a really difficult place to get to in life. So that's where I want to start. And I just wonder, have you always been like that? Has it taken you a while to get there?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's taken me a long time. And it's interesting because as you say that, I'm like, do I feel self assured? I have a real genuine sense of who I am. It took me a long time to get to know myself, to have the courage to be that person and then to live as that person has just come in the last, I would say six to seven years. Oh, really? Yeah. To actually live as that person and I actually look forward to what is to come. And because I feel like I still have a sense of knowing what is right for me, but not always having the courage to do that. You know, sometimes I feel like I should do this. And so I do look forward to the other. But I think I've always been. I've always been this person. I've always had a very big personality. I've always known what I liked. I actually had an experience today that was fascinating. So I still have all of my magazines from the 80s.

[Emma Grede]

You do? You're a magazine freak.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was a magazine freak. I loved Sundays in magazines. Like, I just loved magazines. Fashion magazines and like Casa home, like also decor magazines, mostly fashion. And when my brothers who are 15 and 16 years younger than me, when they got old enough, they were going through them looking for naked pictures. And so my mom, all of a sudden I was out here in LA and she was like a movie had sent a moving truck with all of my magazines. And I have them and this morning I was looking through them and realized something I hadn't realized. I had been dog earing the pages of the things I loved in the magazine. So I opened a magazine from 1989 and there were all these dog eared pages and I was like, wow. I was like in my teens and what I looked at and thought, wow, I became this person. And I think of the TV shows I watched, I watched the Bionic Woman, Cagney and Lacey, Kate and Ally, Charlie's Angels, these shows led by women and Carol Burnett, Lucille Ball, who could leap tall buildings and live out their dreams and live a life that to others seemed like it was meant for men. And I seem to have become this woman. And I think it was that I've always been purposeful about what I love and what was of interest to me, my sense of curiosity. And so it definitely curated me in a purposeful and intentional direction. And I stand here at 52 and like opening up that magazine thinking, God, I dog eared this at 17 years old, 16 years old, and thinking, this is how I dress. Like, this is how I look now. Is this.

[Emma Grede]

You manifested it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's fascinating.

[Emma Grede]

Do you believe in manifestation? Like, do you believe that like you were doing something through all of that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I do. And can I tell you something that I said to my therapist when I have been working with this therapist that I'm with for maybe, maybe 10 years and the first thing I said to her when I was interviewing to see if we were a match is I said the thing about me is I manifest really quickly. So I have to be intentional about what I language and the words that I use. And so what I like to do is spend time in therapy being clear about what it is that I want.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, first of all, you just said too many good things there. You manifest really quickly, which is super interesting. I want to get into that. But you language really purposefully.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

So I. First of all, I'm obsessed with that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Because I know that I manifest quickly. And so I don't wanna be manifesting the wrong stuff. Right. And I do spend a lot of time saying out loud, like, thank you. Like, whoa. Like, I'll have moments. I'm thinking, oh, I want this thing. I want this thing. And then a thing comes and I'm like, oh, my God, that was the thing. It's in a different form than I could have imagined. But, like, that's the thing.

[Emma Grede]

But that's the thing. That's the thing that you asked for. I mean, I find it so fascinating as someone who, like, I grew up worshiping the pages of magazines. And I didn't dog ear them, but I used to tear them out and create collages. And I would be like, this is the house I'm gonna have. And this was what my wardrobe would look like and all the pieces that would make up, like, it was a big thing for me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And these used to call them manifestation boards.

[Emma Grede]

Back when I was little. That was just a collage, you know, it was just me, like, making the bad room that I had, like, slightly better. But it's so interesting because years later, I will never forget it, sitting there, having had my first child, and I started crying. I was in this new house that we'd bought, and my husband's like, it's amazing. This new kid. And I was like, no, it's amazing. Cause I manifested this exact situation with the Christmas tree there and the window there and that credenza that, like, I drew this. I put this thing together 20 years ago. And so I find that so interesting that you know that power about yourself.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I do know that power. I also, even more than that, understand the balance of what is not in my hands and. And letting go and allowing things that are better than I could have imagined. And also sometimes exactly not what I imagined. I mean, there are parts of my life that I'm like, really? Because I've manifested these other things. What's happening?

[Emma Grede]

I didn't want that. I didn't ask for that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Or like, what is this? And sort of having a Balance and a sense of allowing and grace and open handedness, along with being intentional about where I want to go.

[Emma Grede]

Talk to me a little bit about your upbringing because you grew up, obviously, interestingly, you grew up in the spotlight, one could say when my arm did.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, you know, but it would have been.

[Emma Grede]

It would have been around you, right? You grew up here and, you know, I just found it in Switzerland too. But you've carved out a career, Tracey, all of your own. Like, it's so interesting because you really stand completely on your own. And I wonder if there's something that you know from your childhood that has really informed who you are that we would find surprising.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was born here in Los Angeles. I went to the center for Early Education. Before it was the Center. We moved to New York in 77, 78, when my mom was going to do the Wiz. We lived in a Hotel, the 31st floor of the Sherry Netherlands Hotel. I have a very abundant childhood, full of very unique experience. Andy Warhol painted me and my sisters. Francesco Scoffullo photographed us.

[Emma Grede]

Do you have that? Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Painting her Brits photographed us numerous times and me numerous times. Experiences that are just not normal. Michael Jackson, Marvin Gaye calling our phone. Like just things that are just absolutely normal.

[Emma Grede]

But that was your norm.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That was my normal.

[Emma Grede]

That was your Wednesday.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But I will say that the thing about it is that my mom is a mom before she is anything else. So my mom, for example, recorded at night while we were sleeping. She would put us to bed at night, then go record. Then she would wake us up in the morning and sit with us for breakfast. My mom never left the house for longer than a week. She would commute back and forth. And then in the summer and Christmas vacation, we would create home somewhere. We lived in Rome. And then she would commute to her shows every week.

[Emma Grede]

She was Supermom.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She was Supermom.

[Emma Grede]

Supermom.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I had a very anchored home life that was based in breakfast, lunch and dinner, going to school, my mom handling doctor's appointments, all that, all while doing the Central park concert. In the span of 79 to 80 something, my mom put out an album a year, did TV specials, did the.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, how did she do this?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I had no idea. I have no idea. And I never heard. Not now, I don't have time. Never heard it. So I was raised. First of all, I was born because I was wanted. My life has been held from that place. My mom always said she wanted us to start from her shoulders. So anything she had learned, she wanted Us to start from there.

[Emma Grede]

That's a lovely phrase.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's a lovely phrase. People say you grew up in your mom's shadow. I feel that I grew up in her embrace. And so I come from a world where I saw a woman who utilized glamour and her voice for agency. That gave her a sense of power. That's what I equated beauty and fashion with. I saw a woman who was a businesswoman first and foremost, who was in charge of her career, signed her own checks. She wasn't a celebrity or a person who. People were doing things on her behalf and she didn't know what they were. She was waking us up in the morning and doing all that, but also being a businesswoman. So she set a template for me of what was possible. This idea that you could only be one and not the other was not true in my childhood. So I saw the bigness of a life that you also had to hold yourself. So I remember people always say, dream big. But what I learned in my childhood was, dream big, but know that you're the one that's gonna be doing the work. You are gonna do the work to pull that up the hill. And so dream at a pace and in a way that you can actually maintain what it takes to do that. And my mom has always been incredibly purposeful. So I saw all of those things up close and personal. I was witness to them. And that, I think, is what sent me on a path along with the television shows that I watched. And so I saw a combination of women that were not at all limited by the world's idea of the real estate a woman should take up, but instead, dream what you want and go build that.

[Emma Grede]

You know, it's so interesting to me. Cause I've read that you credit your mom, Diana Ross, for teaching you that you don't need a man to build the life I want. And I read that you said I come from a lot of abundance, but all of the abundance that I enjoy is mine, that I've built. And building my own life has made me very aware of what my mother built on her own and what it took for her to do that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Will you tell me just a bit more about.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, I don't know that my mom said you don't need a man. I mean, don't get me wrong. And, like, I would love a partner. And I've had some wonderful dating, you know what I mean? And some wonderful. And some wonderful relationships. So it's not that I just haven't found the person that is My life partner yet. What I will say is that this was actually the phrase. My mom said I was a big shopper as a child.

[Emma Grede]

Has that changed?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, it has not. But now at least I'm spending my own money. Because my mom was like, little girl, what is happening?

[Emma Grede]

What are you doing?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She was like, what is going on? Because I used to literally go into my mom and plead a case for why I needed to shop more than just once a year for school shopping. She was like, I don't get it. We did the school shopping. And I'm like, I know, but don't you understand that designers come out with new seasons of clothes?

[Emma Grede]

She's like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She was like, girl, get out of here. But she said to me once she came and she was like, I'm gonna tell you something literal. Your hair products alone are gonna break the bank. She was like, it's enough. There's shampoo and conditioner and a brush in the shower. You're good.

[Emma Grede]

Deal with it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She said, so either you're gonna have to get yourself a really rich husband or a really great job. And I ended up building my own hair company, Beauty company, honestly. Cause we just launched Bodies.

[Emma Grede]

I saw that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I've built a really big, beautiful life. And I've had a big job. I keep having big jobs.

[Emma Grede]

You keep having big jobs. I keep having big jobs, over and over. Was there another woman, or has there been another woman in your life that has inspired you in the same way?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Or so many. I mean, I think I could collect them. I mean, Vivienne Westwood and the fact that she just continued to stay vibrant, sexy, creative, fertile, beautiful, beautiful. Just until her last day. It was just stunning. Michelle Obama. I mean, there's so many women. Alfre Woodard. There's like. There's women that I hear these gems from them that I hold onto that help me, have helped me to build this life that I have around me. I think people talk about how to get what you want. I think it's more important to learn how to be who you are. The world around you will be built out of that. But if you're just trying to get the what you want, I think you miss the juicy, joyful, and robust part of life that is being able to appreciate and enjoy and love what you have around you. You know, and there's a. Do you know that Pima Chodron quote?

[Emma Grede]

Oh, which one?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So the one where she's like, in your current state. Wait, I'm gonna have.

[Emma Grede]

I don't know. I don't know. It. We'll find it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's wonderful.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, Pima Chodron. I just. Correct. Love everything she's ever written.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct.

[Emma Grede]

When did you find those books?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was going through a terrible breakup. It was maybe 15 or 16 years ago. And When Things Fall Apart came to me, and it was the first time I felt like somebody sat down next to me. I didn't meet her. I just mean metaphorically sat down next to me and didn't tell me that where I was was my fault. Didn't tell me that where I was was because I had done something wrong. Just that it was my fault and that it was actually okay for me to be where I was. And that the answer to moving out of that was actually to what I was feeling. And that the fastest way through to where I wanted to go was by actually being where I was.

[Emma Grede]

And I was like, all of it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was like, what? Like, because I felt like I was supposed to. I am myself into better feelings. And I was like, no. And it taught me a huge lesson in my life.

[Emma Grede]

You strike me as someone who is so fiercely independent. And I wonder, like, is that something that's very conscious for you, or is it just who you are?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think it's who I am.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. It used to bother me because I felt like I was doing something wrong. But, you know, I come from a really big family, and, like, I'm a person that can. I love to sleep with in the middle of the sound of all of it. You know what I mean? Like, just in the middle of the cacophony of the family. So I'm both independent and not. I'm very comfortable with myself. I'm comfortable with my own company. I have a sense of how to hold counsel for myself. In that sense, I'm very independent, but I'm also such a. Like. Like, with my friends and the people that I'm really, like, safe with. Like, I'm like a barnacle. Like, you can't let go of me. I'm a barnacle lady. Like, I'm going nowhere. Chosen family. I don't know what to tell you.

[Emma Grede]

Are you famously single at this point? Cause I feel like every time I read about you, I need something. First of all, I want to go here.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Slightly exhausting. I mean, I'm like, guys, can you. Like, it's slightly exhausting because I'm like. Sometimes people talk about it as if I have tried to be a poster child for that. I'm like, no, that's just the facts. Okay. I also don't Publicize when I am dating.

[Emma Grede]

Well, fat.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, so people, we don't talk about that. That's okay.

[Emma Grede]

But you can tell us if you are.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Tracy, we're gonna keep that as is. I like that to be private. Well, because, you know, here's the thing. When you start dating someone, you don't want public point of view about something that's private as you're trying to discover if it works for you or not.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So, no, I don't. I don't do that. I have not been chronically single. I just don't. I haven't. I haven't done. What do they call it? A soft. A launch. A soft launch. You haven't done a soft launch? I haven't done a soft launch. Isn't that what they call it?

[Emma Grede]

But it feels like it's a choice. Do you feel like that's very misunderstood about. Well, no.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'll tell you what's a.

[Emma Grede]

Tell me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'll tell you what's a choice, is that I'm not gonna date someone just to date someone, to have someone to date.

[Emma Grede]

But this is what I love.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm gonna date a person that's a match.

[Emma Grede]

Because we were all told that we were all raised with this idea that's like, well, listen, love, it's like times are running out.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you know how many people have.

[Emma Grede]

Done that to me? Of course.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you know how many famous people have done that to me?

[Emma Grede]

Nay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Nut. I swear to God, like, just men that you're just like, that's not nice. Or my favorite question is, have you. Have you ever thought about having kids? No, it's never crossed my mind.

[Emma Grede]

Never occurred to me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm so glad you brought.

[Emma Grede]

My vagina has been here, and I haven't thought about it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I've said to somebody in an interview, will you please get out of my womb? Yeah, you should just get out of my womb. That's how.

[Emma Grede]

You're a constant monthly reminder that I have the ability to do that. Oh, my God. That's a whole nother podcast. That's a whole nother.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't even have any.

[Emma Grede]

I don't have those questions.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Not anymore. No, that's okay.

[Emma Grede]

But lucky you, by the way. Congratulations. Anyway.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But the thing about my singledom is I don't mind the conversation because it allows me to transform that question into the other thing, which is how am I choicefully living my life? And how am I curating a life that actually matches where I am? And how am I not waiting for another person or to get to a certain place or a certain weight or a certain age or a certain money or a certain whatever. To do the things that I want to do that bring me joy, and how can I walk towards those things? And that's where the solo travel show came from. It's something that I always do, and it's something that has been a big part of me living out loud for who I am. And also, by the way, it's been a long discovery of what do I consider fun? Yeah, like, other people's fun is not my. My version of fun. And so I have to figure out how to make that real for me. And that's why now I look around and I'm like, oh, my life looks like me. It actually matches who I am.

[Emma Grede]

We talk a lot about the hustle, about building something of your own, finding independence, creating opportunity. And, yes, that's powerful. I know. I've been there. Those early mornings, late nights, just trying to make something, anything work. But sometimes the most meaningful growth doesn't come from chasing more. It comes from opening up what you already have. My favorite example of monetizing something you already own is hosting your home on Airbnb. So many hosts I've spoken to tell me the same thing. That what started as a side hustle to earn a little extra became something much deeper. Sure, the extra income is amazing, but the real joy, it's the people, the stories, the connections that happen when you open the door to the world. When you're the host, you're not sharing your space. You become the local who points guests to the bakery that knows your coffee order by heart. The quiet park that only the neighbors know about. The little restaurant where the owner still greets everyone by name. I can think of a few spots like that near my own home. Those places that feel special because they're yours and you get to share them. You're giving someone a piece of your world, and in return, you get a glimpse into theirs. One host told me that meeting travelers from around the globe actually changed the way she thought about design and creativity. Every new guest bought a new story, a new idea, and that energy inspired her next big project. Now, I love that. It reminds me of how collaboration works in the fashion business, too. You meet someone, they tell you something unexpected, and suddenly you're seeing the whole world differently. That's the thing about connection. It expands your perspective. It reminds you that success isn't just about what you earn. It's about what you learn. Hosting on Airbnb, it's a kind of cultural exchange, a way to make your home a haven for travelers, dreamers and storytellers, people who are out there exploring, creating, aspiring. And maybe in the process, you'll find yourself growing too. I think that's the part that really resonates with me, the growth that comes from opening yourself up to new people and new perspectives. Because when you open your space, you're opening your world. And sometimes that's where the real magic happens. So if you've ever wondered what's waiting beyond the hustle, maybe it's this. The joy of connection, the spark of new ideas, the satisfaction of knowing you've turned your space into something much bigger than four walls. That's what it means to go beyond the hustle. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host you know what I see all the time when I talk to entrepreneurs? A messy sales process. Scattered spreadsheets, random notes, a dozen tools that don't actually talk to each other, and nobody really knows what's moving or what's stuck. It's to going. That's where today's sponsor pipedrive comes in. The number one CRM tool for small to medium businesses, pipedrive brings your entire sales process into one simple centralized space, giving you a crystal clear view of every deal and customer interaction so that you can stay in control and close more deals faster. Teams are using pipedrive to close an average of three times more deals per month. It's so customizable, every team sells a little bit differently. And with pipedrive you can tailor it to fit your exact process and strategy. While everyone still works from one connected platform, it all centers around a visual sales pipeline where you can instantly see what stage each deal is in and what needs to happen next. It's a powerful, simple CRM built by salespeople for salespeople. Join the over 100,000 companies already using Pipedrive right now, when you use my link, you'll get a 30 day free trial. No credit card or payment needed. Just head to pipedrive.com forward/, aspire to get started. That's pipedrive.com forward slash, aspire and you can be up and running in minutes. What do you wish other women, women in their 20s and their 30s that are still walking around with this conditioning that they're supposed to do a set of things when it comes to marriage and children. Like, what do you say to women?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Is that what you want? Or is that some tape in your head from somebody else?

[Emma Grede]

Cause often it's the latter?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Often it is. And also, what do you want from it? You know, I. Not because of what my mom told me, but because of what society told me. I grew up dreaming of my wedding. And to a certain extent, I wish I had spent more time younger dreaming of my life. I mean, can you imagine what it would look like?

[Emma Grede]

Hello. Hello.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Dreaming of just the life. And not only the life I want, but what is it that I want to give back to the world? What is it that is my gift, Gift, my purpose, my reason for being that I want to share with other people. And that's not to say that you shouldn't dream of the partner you want. But by the way, be specific. Do you want what someone looks like or do you want what they make you feel like? And not even what they make you feel like, what you feel around them?

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This is, by the way, a question that I tell people. How. How do you feel when you're around them? This is something I do. When dating, there's two things that are really great tricks.

[Emma Grede]

Give it to us.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Great tricks. One is take a piece of paper on the front, write the facts. On the back, write the fantasy so that you're clear. Okay, which is which? Correct. And not two pieces of paper where you can look at them at the same time and get confused. Flip it over like, oh, my God, I love his friends. Oh my God, so and so is going to come to my wedding is on the other side. You know, I don't know what those things are. Right? But do that is one. The other that is key is on that first date, second date, third date, every date, ask yourself, go on that date, leave the date and ask yourself how you feel. Do I feel safe? Do I feel seen? Do I feel sexy? Or do I feel like, oh my God, I didn't wear the right thing? And da, da, da, da. That's not a good feeling. Do you feel like I've had people ask me, this is the worst thing to start with, with a guy on a date when they say, why are you still single? So my favorite thing to answer is, oh, because I'm broken. Oh, you didn't know? Like, what are you asking me?

[Emma Grede]

What are you asking?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What are you asking?

[Emma Grede]

Answer to that question. I don't know, because I keep meeting jerks like you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What are you asking me? It's the wrong question. It's the wrong question. But it does give you some sort of indication of the way they're thinking about things. Right? So I think asking yourself the right questions I have a friend who always says sometimes the questions are more important than the answers that you get. So that you stay curious in the right way for yourself. But in terms of younger people or anybody, honestly, any woman, not just women, all people, even men. Anyone who, no matter who you date, what is it that you want?

[Emma Grede]

What is it that you want?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And if you don't know, that's okay. Ask yourself. Living.

[Emma Grede]

And you can figure it out later.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct? Yes. And keep asking yourself those questions. The key is, do not go through your life asleep. And then ask yourself, how did I end up here? Because you will end up somewhere. And if you don't like it and you're 35, it's a lot harder to make those changes. You can make them. You can make changes at any age. But if you just keep floating along where life takes you without asking yourself what you like. And by the way, it's very hard to know what you like if you don't know who you are. And many people were raised in environments where they didn't have a chance to discover who they are. Many people have been in lives that are about surviving and they don't have time to ask themselves those questions. But you can carve out five minutes a night. Oh, yes. And say, what did I like about today? What worked today?

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. And how do I find more of that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct. Yes. What felt good today? What? And then, oh, that felt good. What felt good about it? And name it. And really understand that for yourself and go into that much detail because you will start to build the blocks of, oh, I'm a person who. A six person dinner is too many.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Start small. What did I like about today? What felt good today? I had a good day. Why did I have a good day? Okay, it was when I was with that person. And then you might mistake it and think, that's a person I want to be around. What was it about that person? Was it you or was it them? And then you start to sort of build sort of a roster for yourself that can become a roadmap. For example, social media does not show us process. It doesn't show us how you got there. That's part of what you're doing in this podcast, right? Like, what are you doing? What are the pieces? How do you think about life? What are the questions that you do ask yourself? How do you discover that? How do you find that out? Like, for example, I have learned there's things I'm really good at and there's things I'm not so great at.

[Emma Grede]

You need to know that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You need to know that. And my favorite is to remember I never want to think I know everything. I want to remain teachable 1 million percent.

[Emma Grede]

But you need that both in your business life and in your personal life.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct. And they both mirror each other that you know. And I have built my business life the same way I have built my personal life. And I do want to say to people, it is not because of the abundance that I come from that I have had this space to do, that I have carved out the visioning time, the dreaming time, meditation where I'm looking.

[Emma Grede]

At things clearly, done a lot of work.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It has been like chewing on ground glass. You say I'm comfortable in my skin. I was not. I was not. I have learned how to be comfortable.

[Emma Grede]

You've learned to be. But what strikes me about you, Tracy, is that you have an incredibly powerful mindset. And again, as I was reading so much and researching about you, one of the things that I love is this sort of level of honesty that you seem to have with yourself. And I love that you said somewhere that, you know, it's okay to not feel good all the time.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. And when you're. I mean, first of all, when you're just. Just a woman living your life, but certainly when you're a woman running a company and trying to build something and go after your dreams and fulfill your ambition, you have really shit days. You have really shitty moments. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and how you. How you've got comfortable just like not always being fine.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, it's just true. I think that the difference for me is that I don't try and reach above it. I try and make space around it. Yes, I manifest and use my words clearly, but I am not a believer in the ask and it's given thing of positive thinking. I am a believer in a sense of wholeness for myself. So I make space for the space for being afraid. I make space for bad days. I make space for pain. I make space for mistakes. And the key to that for me is, as I said, creating a space around it and acknowledging like, you feel like crap and we still gotta get up and go, you know, and we. We have things to do. I mean, I've had to be my funniest on my worst days. I've had. I have a life where sometimes I have to be beautiful on days when I feel horrible and feel not pretty. And by the way, one of my biggest lessons on that was my stepfather passed away and we had a show. This was years ago, thank you very much. But it was. We had a show to tape Girlfriends. It was on a Tuesday, and we didn't. We let go of the studio audience, but I continued to show up. And I remember learning something in my cells, that there is for me always a place and a part of me that is okay and that I could lean to that person. That's not to say that I wasn't acknowledging that I was in shock, that I was frightened, that I was terrified about what it meant. I just didn't know what it meant in that moment. And I was deeply sad. But there was also a part of me that was okay. And that's different from the show must go. Always. Always go on. That's a very different thing.

[Emma Grede]

No, that's like an internal tool, like a place that you can find. That's like some type of inner strength.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes. And so that was a life lesson for me. And I do talk about the hard moments, and I did this on the show as well for a sense of transparency, because I have to say that I haven't seen enough examples of that. And what the result has been is me feeling ashamed.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, well, I mean, there aren't enough examples of that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No.

[Emma Grede]

But I wonder, like, how do you even show up or authentically in the public eye without getting lost in the performance of it all?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm softer. I allow those parts of me to call the people that can support me. I mean, I've had moments when I've gotten so overwhelmed in big, wonderful moments of my life. I remember crying on my kitchen floor and calling. I don't know if it was my sister or one of my best friends and saying, like, I don't. I, like, don't know if I built for this. Like, maybe I just can't do it. Like, I just. It's too much and it's too hard. And then I got it all out, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna go into hair and makeup. You know what I mean? Because. And it's like, that's the imposter syndrome. Right?

[Emma Grede]

That's it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But give it space. Give it voice. Let it be heard by somebody who can hold it with love and love. Yeah. Have those people and love you when you can't love yourself.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't. I'm not gonna bring that to social media. I'm not looking for people I don't know to support me in that. But then you bring the part of you that is present and can hold it, you know? I had to do something recently, and I have a text thread with friends. I'm like, guys, I'm not feeling up for this, but I am gonna suit up and allow, you know, God to precede me in this moment and allow. If can I connect. This is what I always say to myself. I use the May I's, by the way, not the Iams. I call them the May I's.

[Emma Grede]

May I's. What are the Mays?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

May I? I put May I before stuff because May I instead of I am feels like it honors where I am and invites me to where I want to go.

[Emma Grede]

And so you said you were purposeful with the language. Okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I'm like, may I lean into the part of me that is deeply grateful for this event that I'm going to, for this opportunity, for what it is celebrating. And may I let the soft parts of me stay as soft as they are as I walk into this from a place of gratitude. Or sometimes I'll do. May I be of service in this moment because I am not feeling up to anything. May I be of service and know that I'm there to be of service to what I'm going to do versus going there to get something for me. And those kinds of things help me get through some moments, lots of moments in my life and my career that instead of being like, I'm okay, I'm totally fine, because I find that when I do that weird stuff comes out of the stomach. No, it does.

[Emma Grede]

It really.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You really don't want to be sad?

[Emma Grede]

No, no, no. It. And also, it's dishonest with yourself. So this is actually a way of honoring your feelings but still having the strength and being able to move through something.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then sometimes things don't go well.

[Emma Grede]

And by the way.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then all you do is you take accountability. I was crappy. That was not great. And I really wish I could have done that better. And I'm sorry. And by the way, the biggest amends and accountability is to be corrective in your behavior. And I will say that we. We all. All of us, so many of us know better, but don't do better. And that's okay. We're human beings, but the least you can do is keep trying. We can't be responsible for our first thought, but we can definitely be responsible for our second one. We can't always be responsible for our first action, but we can be for our second.

[Emma Grede]

I feel like I'm in Tracy Church. I don't know if I can ask the questions because I'M just like, I'm in learning mode. You really are the rich auntie of all of our dreams. Like, I'm like, somebody give me a pencil.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm like, really? Give me a pool and a cocktail, and then I can give you them rich von, rich auntie, auntie vibes. You and I in a pool with.

[Emma Grede]

Let's.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Can we do this podcast?

[Emma Grede]

Podcast all the next podcast in the book in the Pool, episode two.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Very good.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. It's gonna happen. Okay, so give me this if you were giving, because I do really look at you as someone who's like, it's got such nuggets and so much great advice, but what would. What kind of advice would you give to a woman that is trying to truly, like, design a life of her own?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Get a journal, start with yourself and backtrack into. Okay, let's start with today. How was it? How did I honor myself? Like, start with some questions, right? How did I honor myself today? What went well today? What didn't go well today? What feels scary about what I'm feeling today? What do I have resentment towards about today? What do I have gratitude about towards today? And maybe do that for a short period of time of a week or two weeks, and then comb back through it with a pen and a highlighter, circle the things that resonate as the Whoppers. Not the surface stuff, but, like, the Whoppers. And then take those and put those on another piece of paper and be with those for a bit and see if you can start asking yourself questions from there.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What is the feeling I want from my life? And what things in my life that already exist give me those feelings? And then is there a job I can build out of that? Is there a life I can build out of that? Is there a company I can build out of that? What do I do better than anybody else? What do I do that I get lost doing and can't help but to just keep doing it? Like, somebody has to stop me from doing it, doing it. And how do I build something from there? Like, what are. What are those things in your life that allow your heart to sing and at the same time, give yourself room that you might need to try stuff and then go, that didn't work. You know? And I think you really can do that at any age. You know, I say to people, like.

[Emma Grede]

Any age, Any age.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Any age. Like, if you don't have enough joy in your life, what is joy for you? What does that look like?

[Emma Grede]

You have to figure. You have to know you Gotta know how to figure these things out. I mean, being first of all. Well, for my whole life, I've had a diary. I still have the very embarrassing diaries from, like, 12 years old.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

The ones with the locks on.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, with the lock. And the lock on it. It does. And big bubble writing, like, you know, three words on a line type thing. But still, to this day, I journal. And it is one of the most powerful tools for figuring out my own stuff.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, different than me typing.

[Emma Grede]

No, it has to be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's gotta be written.

[Emma Grede]

Cause it's gotta come out. Like, it has to come out and through you and then when you go back. But I love that as a piece of advice for starting to understand what you need and what you want and who you are and having that ability to go back and see how you've changed and what stayed the same and what you need to do. It's actually a magnificent piece of advice.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's a really good tool.

[Emma Grede]

It's a tool.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. So another piece that I do is, for example, when, you know, when you get, like, overwhelmed and anxious and something's upsetting you. Right?

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Never heard of that. Okay. Well, sometimes that happens to me, Emma. So I will do my list. Right. I resent, I'm afraid, whatever those things are over and get it all out. And I do the circles of the deep ones, the ones that are like, the big ones. Then I create a prayer out of that.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, you do?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I take those words and I try and flip them. What is the opposite of that? What is the feeling that that is not giving me, that I want? And then I create a prayer that is. May I remember that I am so. I'm afraid I will never find partnership. Say, that's there. Right. May I remember that I am worthy of belonging and connection. I don't know. And then whenever that anxiety comes up, that's what I say. So I end up with these prayers that match that particular hurt in my soul.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then next, like, I'll look back, because sometimes I have a little card. I'll look back and I'll be like, oh, that got solved. At least it got healed for a bit. You know what I mean? And I might have to go back to it, but that anxiety, that part of me, that hurt in that little, special little nook that's hidden in my heart has something that answers it. Specifically.

[Emma Grede]

I really want people to take that in. Because as a mom and I have two girls, that is something I'm going to teach them. Because to be able to create that for yourself to take that which is bothering you and that which is weighing you down and to be able to flip it and then use what you've created as a way of reinforcing. I mean that's magical. That is everyone who is listening to this right now needs to rewind that bit it and write it down and do that for themselves.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I'm gonna give you that same example, if I may, from a physical standpoint. So I have specific injuries. At 52, you'll find that the weird funny ways that you've been sitting your whole life create something fascinating in your body. Right? So I have specific injuries. Now if somebody from a general place looked at my body, they would be like, okay, so you need to strengthen your hamstrings. But here's the thing, it's just this part of my hamstring, right? Right. So I have somebody that has helped me come up with exercises for a specific part of the hamstring. And it's designed for me. Now that's something. And the only reason I tell that story is because if you take it out of the emotional and you put it into something physical sense, sometimes it's easier for people to understand. Strengthening my entire hamstring is not the issue. It's this little bit that by the way, most people when watching me move, wouldn't even think I had a weak hamstring.

[Emma Grede]

But specificity really matters and it's somebody.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So you know yourself better than anybody else. If you can just listen really and give yourself the tool to get to those places, you will have an unbreakable, unshakable foundation for your life that is built on you.

[Emma Grede]

Heaven.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Heaven.

[Emma Grede]

Thank you for that. You know, being a working mum during cold and flu season is, well, let's just say it's a full contact sport. Between early morning emails, school drop offs and trying to keep everyone fed and happy. The last thing I want is a sore chapped nose from constantly wiping, usually the moment I've got an important call or a meeting. That's why I love Kleenex lotion facial tissues. These aren't just your average tissues, they actually care for your skin. Made with coconut oil and aloe, they help soothe moisture and protect my skin even when I'm wiping all day. It's such a small thing, but having the right products can really make a difference when you're under the weather or when your little ones are. I try to make self care part of my daily routine. Morning skincare, a little quiet time with my coffee, and yes, using Kleenex lotion tissues when the sniffles hit. There's something so comforting about reaching for tissues that actually feels gentle and nourishing. It's one of those little moments of care that keep me feeling supported through a long day. Honestly, I've noticed the difference during peak cold and flu season, when everyone in the house seems to be sneezing, coughing or sniffling, my skin stays soft and my nose doesn't feel raw. My kids notice it too. They even ask for the nice tissues, the Kleenex, when they're feeling under the weather because they're just that gentle. It's one of those things that quietly makes life a little easier. And it's not just about function. Kleenex lotion tissues go beyond that. They're soothing, they're moisturising, and honestly, they make me feel a little more prepared and a little more cared for. Even on days where I'm juggling calls, meetings and homework help, I can face the world looking camera ready because I haven't had to sacrifice my skin to get through the stipples. So whether it's a busy morning at home, a long day at the office, or just trying to survive the back to back sick day, Kleenex lotion tissues are part of my routine. They help me and my family feel cared for, nourished, and ready to face whatever cold and flu season throws at us. You can't predict sick days, but with Kleenex lotion tissues you can be prepared for them for whatever happens next. Grab Kleenex Today's segment is brought to you by Bumble, the Go to Dating app for finding love. You all know that I'm a big believer. Believer in building things that last in business, in family, but especially in relationships. And the truth is, dating can feel totally overwhelming. That's why I've noticed so many of my friends and people in my circle turning to Bumble. They've been listening to their community and making changes that actually build trust. Bumble is now photo and phone verified so you know you're actually talking to someone real. And with optional ideas, ID verification, you've got the added reassurance that their photos and their age are real too. So no catfish here. I keep hearing the same perspective. Bumble just feels more intentional now. Profiles highlight the things that you have in common right away so it's easier to see if someone aligns with what actually matters to you. And I love that they've added the dating advice hub in the app. It's like having a dating expert in your pocket. It's a reminder that dating doesn't have to feel overwhelming. You can take your time. You can laugh at yourself and focus on what feels right for you. So if you've been thinking about the idea of finding love, maybe, just maybe, this is your sign. Bumble's making dating safer, more intentional, and honestly, so much more fun. And isn't that the whole point? Start your love story on Bumble. I really want to talk to you about leading to chiffon business. I have been using the heat protector and I love it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Amazing.

[Emma Grede]

First of all, I'm very happy that you now stock in the UK because I was the person cheating shopping for.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Your family from Sephora for a free one that told you guys, like, girl.

[Emma Grede]

We'Ve got, you know, it's in boots. I was like, guys, it's in boots. I think they just wanted me to buy it. Basically, I was just fooled into the whole thing. But it's really impressive. And yesterday I did see that you've expanded the brand so outside of hair into body.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So the reason I called it pattern beauty and not pattern hair was because I always knew it was on the roadmap. Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Did you do a packaging change or is that just for that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

For body.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, for body.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, for body. So it's still bold and beautiful, but it has its own category, its own color. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

So obviously you were an actress that took this leap into business. And I know for so many people, like, doing that can feel so frightening and so scary. So what gave you the idea that you could be as successful as you've been?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, I had no idea I was gonna be successful.

[Emma Grede]

No, you didn't.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Emma Grede]

So you didn't take that. You didn't. But you weren't like, okay, this is gonna be a thing, and it's gonna be great. It is gonna be what it is.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Not at all. Let me be clear. Yes, I was an actress, and that was my window in to have certain conversations. But I am a consumer. And that's what my pathway to being a business entrepreneur, business builder was as. As a consumer. And what I knew as a consumer and a beauty consumer and a shopper in general, was that my entire childhood and life around hair products, there was something missing. And I kept thinking, I didn't know it was gonna be me, but I kept thinking, why is the same products that my mom and my grandma, my aunts like, why is it the same products? Why is the same few products in the corner? Why is there nothing new? Why can I. Why can I not Find products that are actually for the way my hair grows out of my head and are not trying to straighten my hair. Why are the products that are for cur they say for curly hair don't work on me. So I kept saying, oh, my God, it would be so amazing. And that was when my mom had that conversation. She was like, please stop buying products. You can't keep buying all these expensive products. This is insane. And that was another gripe. I had so much hair, you would buy this little thing for $45. And it was two shampoos, two conditioners in there. The shampoo was always bigger than the conditioner, but I used more conditioner than I used shampoo. These were all the things I was like, why has no one thought of this? I don't understand. Why do they say put a dime size when I need a handful? Like, I just never understood. And so I kept thinking, my God, wouldn't it be amazing if someone had a line of products that looked beautiful and I could use a whole line on my hair and it looked beautiful on my counter, blah, blah, blah. Wouldn't it be amazing if someone actually made enough conditioner that it was more conditioner than shampoo?

[Emma Grede]

How long did you this for?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This was my entire growing up. And then for 10 years, I wrote my first hair care brand pitch when girlfriends finished.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, and I.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And you launched it when it took 11 years to get on shelves.

[Emma Grede]

First of all, we should say that story more because everybody imag an overnight. It took you, Tracy, 10 years. 10 years.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I want to be very clear with people. This was 10 years and nobody thought it should be coming from me. This was before celebrity brands existed. I'm the founder, so that is often different. Whereas people bring somebody in. But pattern was built as a consumer who saw a blank space in the industry that just was not being serviced. And during the process, and I will. This is practical for you. This is a great one to talk about here. I learned a process around no's that has been instrumental in my entire life, but particularly as a business builder, because you were told no so many times in so many different ways. I will not bore you with all the stories, but I'll tell you some of the headlines that were really interesting. So I wrote my first haircare brand pitch. In that brand pitch, I had the original list of the SKUs that became the 11 SKUs. And the clear indication I had was that I wanted to at the time, this is the way I said it. And now the way I say it, I wanted to Shift the paradigm for how. How hair care was marketed to textured hair and black people didn't understand it. Marketing is based on telling the consumer they have a problem and shaming them into buying something they need to fix the problem. Number one, I don't think that works as a consumer. I am a consumer. I shop the most when I feel good. That's number one. Number two, the other piece of it, as a black consumer and someone with textured hair inherently, that is problematic from a systemic point of view to tell me that my hair is a problem because it's not.

[Emma Grede]

Not.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I wanted to build a company that was based on the celebration of black beauty. Now, I don't believe that hair has a race or a gender, but textured hair is specific and it needs more hydration.

[Emma Grede]

And there was never a part of you that just thought, I'm just going to create a hair care brand and make it for as many customers as possible. No, no. You were like, there is. I need to fill this niche.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes. And I need to develop a product. And by the way, a lot of people, some of the no's were put your name and the name of the company on formulas that exist. I said, no, I need to find manufacturers that can work with me and chemists that can work with me to solve for the problems that I have always experienced in all of the products that I've used.

[Emma Grede]

So give me the thing. So you go, let's start at year one. You write the pitch. You say it needs to be this amount of product.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My manager reads it.

[Emma Grede]

Would you go into. And they go, my manager reads it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And says we should start. Do a line of wigs.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, thank you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Helpful. Then another manager reads it and said we should do a hair TV show. Now. Now, these were the only people I had access to. Right. I was not. I don't come from a family of business people that are in the corporate world. I don't know how you turn an idea into goop. Didn't know any of those things. So then I went to another person who made me cry and was like, why would you, an actress, you need to partner with a hairstylist? I was like, no, I don't. Because hairstylists have not known how to do my hair.

[Emma Grede]

And you cried.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I did.

[Emma Grede]

You cried with a nut?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, she was very angry with me. The way she said it. She was like, she shamed me. But the thing that was interesting to me was I also in that no got clear. So I'm going to tell you a couple of stories and tell you what my experience is and how I use nose. So she was like, why you should partner with a hairstylist? I said no, because the majority of hairstylists don't know how to do my hair. They know how to make my hair straight. They know how to braid my hair. They know how to do other things. They don't know how to do my hair. Hair the way I do my hair when it's big.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But what I learned is the no. Take it in, have the feelings, be disappointed or whatever that is. And then once the feelings have subsided and you can actually take it in and learn from it, ask yourself some questions.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you agree? Is the no because you agree? Maybe it is. Maybe your idea isn't good enough. Do you not agree? Okay, if you don't agree, why do you think they said no? Is it because they're the wrong person, or is it because you didn't express yourself in a clear way that was effective to get what you wanted across? And when you answer those questions, you get to get more clear each time. So every no brought me closer. By the time I found my retail.

[Emma Grede]

Imagining Tracy, some of those no's would have also been useful. Some of those no's were right. And you would have learned from them. Right. And been like, okay, like, maybe I haven't thought about this and this thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct. And some of those nos were because culturally, people did not understand the importance, the buying power and the beauty of textured hair. Sometimes that meant that's what I had to express more clearly and teach people. Was it experiential teaching or was it data? I don't know. I had to do that. So we went through all these different phases. And by the way, the other thing with pattern is I got my retail partners first before I had business partners. Oh, you did, Correct.

[Emma Grede]

So you had Sephora on board?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, Ulta.

[Emma Grede]

Ulta. It was Ulta from day one.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, wow.

[Emma Grede]

Wow. It's so funny because I. Maybe it's just where I find you, but yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And Priya and Artemis were in the original meeting I had with the two of them. I flew myself to their offices and I ended up. Ended up starting with Ulta. And now I'm at Sephora as well. And.

[Emma Grede]

Well, now you're in a lot of places.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, now we're in 11 retail partners.

[Emma Grede]

Because, I mean, for people that don't know, I mean, patent has been. It was a revelation in the industry. And I mean, I say this, I love the product, I use the product. I've Gifted the product. I really think it is such an incredible brand proposition that you had and I think that you did an amazing job of bringing that to life. But I was really interested in the fact that you went. You self funded this brand. Right. You just decided that. Oh, I thought you, you self funded, you raised money.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I found business partners and they are.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, wait a minute. This is not what I thought. That you went out and you raised that you used your own money.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No. And I.

[Emma Grede]

So right from the get go, and.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I purposely did not. So someone told me early on not to use my own money. I will also tell you, I'm a black actress in Hollywood. I did not have that money to use.

[Emma Grede]

Well, that is not the idea that everybody has of you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We.

[Emma Grede]

I would imagine that you could just, you know, start a brand and you'd be fine. You just take your own money and do that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No.

[Emma Grede]

So.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And do you.

[Emma Grede]

But I regret that decision.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Not at all.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm. I'm majority owner.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, so you're still major. You just did a great deal. Okay, so somebody else put the money up for it, but you still own the majority. Maybe that's where I got from.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I have full creative control.

[Emma Grede]

Amazing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I am majority owner of the company. The difference is I brought this fully fledged idea to my business partners and when I brought it to them, I already had retail partners.

[Emma Grede]

Right? Yeah. So you were like, here's the thing, this is how we're going to sell it. All I need is actually the operation, the capital to make it operational.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, correct.

[Emma Grede]

Amazing. Really amazing. And how's it going for you?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's fantastic.

[Emma Grede]

It's going pretty well.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. I mean, you know, I really love being a founder and a CEO and I have my arms wrapped completely around marketing, PD narrative, you know, package, just all of it.

[Emma Grede]

And your partners are working on operations? Predominantly, Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I have a co CEO that oversees all operations and my business partners. There's a lot of shared services with them. HR is there, but like mostly we are in house 47. 47 in house employees.

[Emma Grede]

That's incredible. What have you learned about leadership? Because I guess it's so different from the world, the entertainment world that you come up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's enough.

[Emma Grede]

It's enough.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No. In what ways are they similar to being a producer? I think being a CEO, it's about team building. It is about infrastructure and protocols and strategy and sort of working effectively and efficiently.

[Emma Grede]

Where are your strengths?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My strengths are in storytelling, creativity, thinking outside the box. I find data to be frustrating. I know a lot of people. It's incredibly important, particularly in operations, et cetera. But data tells you a snapshot of the past. And I'm a visioner for future, so I, I don't care, you know what I mean? Like, I have gut instinct and that's where I lead. So I would say creativity, marketing, storytelling, visuals, language, this is my forte.

[Emma Grede]

I wonder how you think about the idea of like your creative vision with the realities of, you know, manufacturing and distribution and logistics and all of those other things. Is it just about being organized for you?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Absolutely. I mean, it's the same thing. You know, I give 85% of my. My weeks to pattern. And is it that much? And 85% of my week to the rest of my career. I mean, I have a full on empire. Like I have production deals and TV shows in development and a full press world in life and speaking engagements.

[Emma Grede]

How much are you working, Tracy?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I work seven days a week.

[Emma Grede]

Seven days a week?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Absolutely.

[Emma Grede]

Saturday, Sunday, you are always. You're doing something. Yeah, I. Are you happy working that much?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Absolutely. It's what I love.

[Emma Grede]

I love that you say that. And I also love that you're honest about working seven days a week. I get a lot of shit for talking about work life balance. And so I'm gonna ask you the question that every journalist asks me all the time. What about work life balance?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's harmony. It's harmony. I mean, sometimes it's full out one thing and sometimes it's full out something else. And then you find a balance. The only person that can say no is me. And so I do that. And I also have a team that protects my time. But. But I thrive working hard and I have a great personal life. It's fine. It's all fine.

[Emma Grede]

Cause it's up to you to say that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's all up to me. And being organized is the key. And disciplined. I am disciplined. I do my work. Like you're not gonna send me something for approval that I haven't read and approved. Like it's not gonna oops.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. Like wash over you. It's like you're in it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm in it. I'm in it. And I learned that from my mom, by the way. The way.

[Emma Grede]

That's a very important thing that everyone has to learn. Read your contracts. Don't give away power of attorney.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Never give away power of attorney.

[Emma Grede]

You should say it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And let me just. And by the way, a lot of people don't know what that means.

[Emma Grede]

No, but why don't you explain it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Don't let somebody else sign your checks, know where your money is going and when it's going out. It needs to be of your volition. So even if. And by the way, this is something that I do. You can pay your agents. They pay for you. So if they take a percentage, they don't have to take it and then give it to you. Give you the check for the money that you make, and then you figure out how much you pay to who it's going to.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, because at the end of the day, you need to be in control of every cost. Like, every single thing that you earn is yours and where it goes. You should decide.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I also have to say, I am not a micromanager. I will micromanage if I don't trust what's going on. And then I want to know everything and I want to figure out why it's not going to. Right. But I'm not a micromanager. That's what that's about hiring teams. You hire and bring wonderful people in that. That's their expertise. That's not my job. That's not what I do for, you know, that's not what I do great at or what I have experience in. But if left to my own devices and I don't think it's happening appropriately, I will start to get in there. I like people to bring themselves to work. That's the kind of leader I am. I work really hard and I. And if you want to know the truth, most people that we think on Instagram, oh, they just got it that way. If you've been in the industry for a long period of time, you work hard, you know, period.

[Emma Grede]

You have to. You have to.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's just the way it's. It's. No one else is going to do it.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, no. And it unravels really quickly. Like, you know those people that are outsourcing that are not really doing the work, that are not putting the time in because it doesn't last. No, like, that's it. When you have a career for all of the time and the level of success you have, it comes from one. Well, a couple of things. You have to have the talent, but you have really got to work it. Yeah, just that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I also. Another philosophy for me is most emergencies involve an ambulance. Time sensitive.

[Emma Grede]

We ain't saving lives over here.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No. And time sensitive is different from emergency or urgent. And I like to go slow and steady. I always tell people, if you need an answer right now, it's probably going to be no, I need to Sleep on it. I mean, I have gut responses, but, like, slow and steady. Slow and steady. I would prefer to do less and do it right than do more and do it sloppy.

[Emma Grede]

End of. Yeah, that's a great philosophy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Again, another thing that shows me how much you know about yourself. Clearly, I want to know if you have a point of view, because I think that we've seen quite a lot recently, like a number of brands that have failed and gone down, especially when they serve a very specific community. And I wanted to see if you have a point of view on why so many brands fail.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think we have to do better as an industry. I think there are systemic roadblocks, and I think it requires a broader approach to support in understanding how you take a unique value proposition and how you scale that, what that would look like. There's some creativity in. In making sense of that with a brand. We're starting with this broad spectrum, right? Where is the growth? Is the growth from expanded retail partners? Is the growth from other products? If so, what are the other products that maintain your initial value proposition? Right. And I don't know all the machinations of that. In. In the case of this, I think it is very hard to maintain a brand. This is a very crowded market. Beauty. Everything's a crowded market now. And everything filters through social. And people are quick to make decisions about what things mean or don't mean or whatever. Those are people, consumers are way. It's not that they're smarter than they used to be. They are. They have access to more information than.

[Emma Grede]

They used to be. So much choice.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So there's so much choice. There's so much you can know about a brand. There's so much. There's apps, you can see what product, what info you know is in the formulas, blah, blah, blah. There's all the things, Right. So I think the other piece of it, which is something I talk about not just in the beauty space, but in Hollywood, in every way. Everywhere there is a cultural currency that is not accounted for in dollar numbers that we must, as industry do a better job of counting. For example, a very exclusive brand that serves a specific customer might not bring in the same dollar amount, but it is bringing a new customer into your store that is accounting for an overflow, a halo effect in your business that is either just serving you culturally or serving you financially in a larger way that you're not accounting to that brand. People need to have a better sense of that and really support that in a different way.

[Emma Grede]

I think there's nuance to the way that we need everybody to think about. And that isn't like the full picture isn't always taken into consideration. Is it something that you talk about at pattern, like how you can future proof yourself in terms of like stagnating growth or thinking about some of these brands that don't get to where they need to be?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, we talk about it, but not from that perspective. I think for me, the key is how do we want to grow and being clear about that, because there's many ways to scale a business. Right. And it, it's sort of the question of what do you want from it at the end? So are you scaling it just to sell it? Are you scaling it? What is the reasoning? Right. So for me, I always go back to the eye on the prize, like, what is the initial value proposition and the mission and the vision of the brand? So if ours is to exceed the needs of this community. Right. How do you continue circling back to that? This, you know, hair care, body care. This is not lip gloss. People don't. You don't change your lip gloss out every two weeks. You don't. Like, I want to buy a different flavor. I don't want. You know what I mean? Like, I want peptides now I, I want, now I want melon. You know what I mean? Like, that's not, that's not what the business is. This is something that becomes timeless and a part of your regular routine Wash day is for some people, once a month as opposed to every day. So how do you account for that in terms of the pace of the scaling? And do you want to scale because you're expanding retail partners? Do you want to scale because of product? Do you want to scale because of new product? So these are questions that you have to ask as you grow a brand and then create a strategy that backs you into that.

[Emma Grede]

Exactly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And builds you towards that.

[Emma Grede]

That.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And also have enough space to be nimble and go, well, that didn't work.

[Emma Grede]

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[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, because originally the dream was to launch.

[Emma Grede]

Get this 10 year dream out.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? So part of what's happened recently is I'm like, okay, so now what are the options? And that's part of what I'm in the growth process of what are the choices and how do you keep those choices open? What does that look like? One of the things we did and have done recently that was really important to me is the core of the brand. If you just keep launching new, how do you keep the core of the brand? So going back and relaunching products that are the heroes. Yeah, Ask why I work seven days a week because these are the things I lay around dreaming about, thinking of talking through. Talking through with this person, talking through with somebody that's not on the team, but whatever that may be is incredibly important and a part of the journey.

[Emma Grede]

Are you a risk taker?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Risk, yeah, I'm kind of risk averse.

[Emma Grede]

You are?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

You didn't see this as taking a risk when you started it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I didn't, no. It feels more risky now because there's more to lose. Right? There was nothing to lose then. But no, I'm not, like, I'm not a gambler. I'd prefer to shop than gamble. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to the risk of I might lose money. I would prefer to just spend the money on something I know I want. Right.

[Emma Grede]

I.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's my.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, listen, I'm. I'm a risky biscuit over here. I'm a gam. I'm just a gambler. Are you a gambler?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I'm not a gambler.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I'm a gambler. I will get. I'll put it all on red.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm slow and steady. No, I'm slow and steady.

[Emma Grede]

I am, like, you know, fast and an ass.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's hilarious. But again, that goes back to knowing yourself.

[Emma Grede]

Right. You have to know yourself.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I feel like you and I both have built great, successful lives that match who we are.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And so it's a matter of listening. Like, if I tried your model, it wouldn't work for me.

[Emma Grede]

Exactly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And that's why I say, like, even on the travel show, I'm like, this is not prescription. This is my version.

[Emma Grede]

This is you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What's your version?

[Emma Grede]

Yes, this is you. That means, I mean, it says to me that you probably have had to get very comfortable with the idea of saying no.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

And you find you're like, I can say no.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, yeah. I feel that. Number one, no is a complete sentence, and number two, a small no is a big yes. And for me, if you look at a wine bottle and you don't know better you would think, why didn't they fill this up? Because that air is what makes space for the wine to be the wine. Right. That air is something that I need in order to get the best of me, to have space and room, to be creative, to vision, to think, to have downtime, to process, to integrate. That's how the best of me comes forward. And when I don't protect that air, I'm not At my best.

[Emma Grede]

Forget about it. What's the boldest no that you've ever said?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I would say a big, bold no is when I was building pattern, and people were pushing for me to make it for everybody, for all hair types, and I said no. Do you know that something like 75% of the global population has textured hair? What? 75% of the global population?

[Emma Grede]

No. Nobody knows that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There's a statistic that recently was given.

[Emma Grede]

Well, I'm feeling better and better about pattern by the minute. When we go in public by the.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Chef watch, I'm totally wrong. But you know what? Even if I'm wrong, it works for me, and it's gonna build me in the right direction.

[Emma Grede]

We're purposeful with our words. We're gonna speak it into existence. My hair's getting curlier by the second. With the very thought of 75%, it's very possible.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wow.

[Emma Grede]

That is a total addressable market we can deal with. Tracee Ellis. Well, I really want to talk to you about your show.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do it.

[Emma Grede]

It's so good. Thank you. So good. You're season two of this show.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We have just been picked up for season two.

[Emma Grede]

How nice.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's really lovely. It's.

[Emma Grede]

This is just like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it's so me. And also, just what a delight to see how people received it. I was. I don't know what I thought people would get. I know what I wanted it to be, but I was very moved. I've been very moved by how moved people are.

[Emma Grede]

Tell me how people. Because I know what I've seen from the outside, but I'd love to know what it seemed like. I was like, this will be a cute show, and I'm kind of watching it to see what you're wearing. And then I was like, oh, this is about so much more than that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it really. It is less of a travel show. The travel is the vehicle for which I'm sharing. Can you be yourself by yourself out in the world? And can you be responsible for your own happiness and give yourself the space to be.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

In whatever that looks like for you. And solo travel looks different for. There's all different kinds of solo travel. For me. It's about integrating and being with myself and spending time quietly letting my heart do what it wants to do. What resonated what I saw resonating with people, was this sense of permission to be okay, being where you are, and that you don't have to wait to go find joy and do the things that you love and experience things. And that doesn't even have to be with travel, that it's just you can go and do those things.

[Emma Grede]

I think that that's what came through, that you were giving people license permission in a very different way than how we've been or how we're thinking at the moment. Like, there was this lovely comment that you said, you described the show as giving yourself permission to be with yourself in the most delicious way. And I was like, oh, that's like, that's so nice. Cause so many people, people would fear going on a vacation alone and having to spend time with their thoughts and be with themselves.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And when you're traveling, you know, things are heightened. So the good stuff and the bad stuff. But also if you're not traveling, I think the show also gave this sense of it is okay to change your mind. It's okay to say no to something. It's okay to do what you want to do, even if that's not what other people want to do. It's okay to put on your pretty clothes for you. It's okay if you're feeling lonely. It's okay if your life doesn't look the way you thought it was supposed to, or other people tell you it's supposed to. You can still find joy and a sort of transcendent sense of deliciousness for yourself. And I think that's what I know is my experience, but I was so deeply moved by how that resonated with people and that my transparency around that came across in the way I intended.

[Emma Grede]

No. And I feel it felt very intentional. I was speaking to a friend about it last night and she was like, I would never do that, though. And I was like, you wouldn't? Like, that is like so easy for me. In fact, I love to be alone with, like, you know, when you have four kids and a husband, I'm like, sign me up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I want to go home. That's a lot of people. That's exactly right. So a lot of people, I think from their lives, it's so much happening all the time, they go away to get their space. Some people go to meet people, some people go for a sense of adventure.

[Emma Grede]

But what do you say to people that are just afraid to even do that for themselves, to go alone?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

First of all, what do you say if it's something you want to do, but you're afraid to do it?

[Emma Grede]

That's it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I would say start with going to dinner by yourself. Start on a Wednesday night at 6 o' clock when the restaurant opens. If you can do that, just like easing them in. Correct.

[Emma Grede]

Because I know you're a Friday at 8 in the best restaurant in town. I literally have seen you and I'm like, she's eating alone, so I'm just going to let her do that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma Grede]

She doesn't want anyone to just come.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then you go for a Friday night at 8 o' clock when everybody is there and the restaurant is. And if you can do that, then the other thing I tell people is you can try going on a vacation that you already have planned and then tack on some days by yourself.

[Emma Grede]

That's how I've done it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Which is great. Or go somewhere you've been with other people and try going by yourself. Yourself.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, you have really nailed this down.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

That. The way that I do it is to get somewhere early before the rest of my family join or I stay for a few days after. Like that, for me, just feels totally fine. I'm almost setting it up for them.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

You know, just trying it out here. Making sure it's okay. Exactly. Yeah. Making sure you like me comfortable.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm doing service, you guys.

[Emma Grede]

For the family.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

Sake. Why don't they understand why I don't want to be with them?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's amazing.

[Emma Grede]

But I'm very happy that this show has got a second season because it feels like it. Really?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Will I go?

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. Where will you go?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. I have idea.

[Emma Grede]

World is your oyster.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It is my oyster.

[Emma Grede]

Do you get to choose?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Wow.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm so excited.

[Emma Grede]

And you're packing all those thousands of bags.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God. I feel like one episode. Maybe we should try, like, what happens if I just do a carry on? I think I would. Literally.

[Emma Grede]

Disaster. You'd be lending things for people. Excuse me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Excuse me.

[Emma Grede]

I saw you wearing something yesterday.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It would be an entire episode about shopping. But in all honesty, I say this.

[Emma Grede]

Happens when you lose your bags. Has that happened to you?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, yeah. I can every the carry on. I could live out of that carry on if I had to.

[Emma Grede]

My husband does that. I have nothing of losing the carry on.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Really? Really.

[Emma Grede]

Nothing? Like 27 lip balms? Not even a pair of knickers? Like, nothing to take me through to the neck.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's so funny. My carry on is so heavy, I cannot get it up. That rimowa bag is like. It's like a rock. It's like just a rock. It's so stuffed, I can barely close it.

[Emma Grede]

I have not. I have like mountains of books, mountains of beauty products and.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That is so funny. No, I literally. It's like, I could really, if I had to, I'd look cute for a week. That.

[Emma Grede]

For a week.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I swear to God.

[Emma Grede]

From a carry on.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I swear.

[Emma Grede]

You need to do a lesson. You need to put that on the social. I will.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And by the way, so what I do is I lay everything out for packing, right? And then I sit there and I go. What would be the one pair of shoes? Oh, that's the bathing suit. And one look, two look, three look that can roll up teeny and be great. And I could wear them in a whole bunch of different ways. And one bathing suit and then the cosmetics that. I mean, I literally could probably do.

[Emma Grede]

It ifl I'm telling you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And by the way, do you have a small. This goes.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, Goes with everything. Yeah, no, no, I see it. I literally am looking at it right now. That shoe goes with everything of me. Leopard is a neutral. I mean, it's not a joke.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I pack for beauty and disaster.

[Emma Grede]

All the things.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, all the things. I'm prepared.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about your legacy because I know that you had this epic 50th birthday party where you were in full celebration.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I did. I had three outfit changes.

[Emma Grede]

I was going to ask you how many outfits. I knew that there were multiple changes. She was. I'm putting on.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was amazing.

[Emma Grede]

All the things.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

God, it was amazing.

[Emma Grede]

I have absolutely no doubt. I want to know if your life was a movie, what message would you want it to send out there?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

May you be comfortable in your skin. Find what makes your heart sing. Discover your purpose and be of service. That would be the message I want.

[Emma Grede]

I think that you're given that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. All right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do. We don't need a movie.

[Emma Grede]

I don't think we should do it. I'm not green knighting now, anyway.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Next.

[Emma Grede]

Next. Next. I think it's so amazing, though, that you have, like, that you can come out with that, and that's who you are.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I love that.

[Emma Grede]

Like, you're being doing a really good job, living up to your own.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's what happens when you don't have kids. You can actually, like, live it out. You know what I mean?

[Emma Grede]

I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm doing this. Meanwhile, I'm not.

[Emma Grede]

I'm reading control. Is it working?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Is it working?

[Emma Grede]

Literally. Literally. What advice would you give your youngest?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, hang in there, honey. Oh, hang in there, honey. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be okay.

[Emma Grede]

Would you go back? Would you go back to 27.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, everyone says that.

[Emma Grede]

No, you need to do a compilation of me asking everyone. They go like, just, no, never.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, never. I would not.

[Emma Grede]

Not for all the skin and the energy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But what's crazy is I didn't even appreciate it.

[Emma Grede]

I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My skin was just tight, like drum all over my body.

[Emma Grede]

You didn't know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I didn't even know. And I was busy complaining. Oh, I can't wait.

[Emma Grede]

Shush, shush.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Sweet little girl. Listen. No, I would not go back, I can tell you that. It only gets better. It only gets better. The physicality is fascinating. I wouldn't even say it's hard. It's just fascinating. Sometimes humorous, sometimes alarming, but absolutely fine. Fine. It's just different. But emotionally and spiritually, I mean, it is just delicious up here.

[Emma Grede]

It's delicious.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And apparently, according to Those in their 60s and 70s, it only gets better.

[Emma Grede]

Is that what your mother says?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My mom says I have friends in their 60s, I have friends in their 70s and they would not turn back the time.

[Emma Grede]

No, no, I don't think anyone wants to turn back the time. It's just like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's not. But yet we have a culture that's obsessed with youth.

[Emma Grede]

I know, I just think. I mean, our culture's obsessed with a lot of things that just aren't. It just don't make sense.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I totally agree.

[Emma Grede]

That's stupid.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You guys, come on.

[Emma Grede]

I'm like, what? Like, no, no.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That is very funny and totally turned. I think it's totally turned stupid.

[Emma Grede]

Like, I don't even know what to say to them anymore.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Ignore that.

[Emma Grede]

And you think about women and where we are right now, where we are in the kind of business landscape and leadership where we are in as, you know, just people evolving. I wanna understand, like, what gives you hope? Like, how are you thinking about women now?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I just look around and I every. All women just gimme hope. There's so many different versions of it. I see so many different kinds of women, so many different ways that women are defying what systemically is prescribed, you know, defying cultural norms in a way that is the norm. But somehow we still keep thinking the other thing is the norm. Expanding real estate in the ways. And I don't mean physical, metaphoric real estate around what we can be and have and how we can be and have. You know, and to me, the how is what's kind of magical. I just see women constantly redefining how you do things, stuff how to be a leader. You know, I look at it all the time and I'M just like, you guys still call that leadership? Like, what is that? That's not leadership. That's embarrassing. That's embarrassing. That should not be called leadership. Because I see this sense of shared leadership.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That benefits the collective, not just you. Is not just a power grab, but instead is like a culture expansion, you know? And so that, to me, I wouldn't even know how to name it other than when you see it, call it out and thank those people.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, we have to thank those people.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. You're one of those people.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, so are you.

[Emma Grede]

Well, thank you. I'll take it. But you really are. All right, this is rapid fire. We're gonna be quick.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do it.

[Emma Grede]

First thing you do when you wake up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Scrape my tongue.

[Emma Grede]

You're a tongue scraper?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Absolutely.

[Emma Grede]

Is that the one thing I'm.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, I'm not an animal. Are you an animal?

[Emma Grede]

I'm an animal. I only say flying, like, two minutes ago. I'm English animal. Mouth hygiene is not our thing. Okay, Just gonna say I. I scraped my tongue. Massively generalizing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's either scrape my tongue or I roll off your face.

[Emma Grede]

It's just so gross. Like, I don't know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's why you want to take it off your tongue. But the other thing I will say is sometimes I also. It depends on which comes first. Slide down the side of my bed and say my prayers.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Hi, God, it's me. Exactly.

[Emma Grede]

Last thing you do before you go to bed.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Check my phone.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, Tracy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I know. Very bad, Very bad.

[Emma Grede]

Terrible.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's terrible. I know. I know. It's at least. At least it gets turned properly off before bed.

[Emma Grede]

That's a big thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There's no on. It's totally off.

[Emma Grede]

All right. Off. But there.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. And I never. If I get up to use the ladies room, I do not pick it up and turn it on.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

During the night. But people do that. People do that. I do not do that.

[Emma Grede]

For sure. One solo trip. Trip that everyone should take at least.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Once to whatever your dream spot is.

[Emma Grede]

You gotta do it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. You gotta do it. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

You gotta do it. A book or a film that changed your perspective on life.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

When things fall apart. Famous children. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Has to be the one.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Something that you valued 10 years ago that you don't value now.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

A flat tummy.

[Emma Grede]

That's a great answer. All right, then I'm gonna ask you at Virsa, what is something that you value more now that you didn't value 10 years ago?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Sleep. Sleep.

[Emma Grede]

Ain't that the truth. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emergency Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Keyser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Salouja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black Video production by Evan Gar Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agarthy Social media by Olivia Homan Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford My teams at the lead company and WME Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emigre Greed is spelled G R E D E. That's Aspire A S P I R E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emma Greed Me. Look, we get it. You can hardly go anywhere or do anything these days without hearing AI this or AI that. And if you're like most people when it comes to AI, AI, you're impressed but have a few concerns. But what if AI was used not as a tool to replace people, but as a way to help understand people better? AI from SurveyMonkey is designed to do just that. From crafting the perfect survey, which is harder than you might think to analysis that digs deep, finds patterns and surfaces trends quickly. SurveyMonkey's powerful suite of AI capabilities makes it faster and easier than ever before to get insight from real people, helping you make confident decisions for your business. Business. Try it today at surveymonkey. Com. Emma.