How People-Pleasing, Perfectionism, And Burnout Are Actually Trauma Responses With Dr. Thema

Summary

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Aspire with Emma Grede | Episode Summary

Podcast Title: Aspire with Emma Grede
Host: Emma Grede
Guest: Dr. Thema Bryant
Episode Title: How People-Pleasing, Perfectionism, And Burnout Are Actually Trauma Responses
Release Date: September 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how unresolved trauma manifests in high-achieving individuals as people-pleasing, perfectionism, and burnout. Dr. Thema Bryant, clinical psychologist, professor, minister, and acclaimed author, joins Emma Grede to reveal how past wounds inform adult habits, beliefs, and workplace challenges. With characteristic warmth and depth, Dr. Thema gives tangible tools for identifying and transforming trauma responses, emphasizing self-compassion, healthy boundaries, and the pursuit of wholeness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Link Between Trauma, Success, and Self-Sabotage

• Emma opens with the insight that pursuing “success” without addressing trauma is unsustainable:

  "You cannot manifest true success if you’re not whole... if you haven’t dealt with all your old stuff... at some point it all catches up with you." (00:09)

• Dr. Thema lays out a path to self-awareness:

  • Visualize success, then pay attention to what fears or anxieties arise.
  • These "concerns" point to internal blocks tied to old stories or wounds. (04:50)

• Perfectionism and self-sabotage as self-preservation:

  • Many overachievers control outcomes to avoid the pain of rejection or “not enough-ness.”
  • The fear of “no” often reinforces old self-doubts:

    “If part of me is wondering, am I enough… if someone gives me a ‘no,’ it hits at the core of my unworthiness.” (06:27)

2. People-Pleasing, Conflict Avoidance, and Gender Conditioning

• Conflict Avoidance:

  • Avoiding conflict leads to lack of trust and messy communication in teams.
  • Agreeing with everyone dilutes your integrity and harms organizations. (07:23)

• Women and Shrinking:

  • Cultural conditioning (toys, language, expectations) teaches girls to “hide, erase, and caretake”—dampening ambition.

  “We are raised...that you will be seen as a better woman if you don’t have a lot of needs or demands, but that you're taking care of everyone else.” (12:00)

• Overcoming Early Programming:

  • Choose company that “like women with wings.” The right environments and people encourage you to show up fully. (13:25–13:54)

3. Unpacking Emotional Baggage

• Recognizing ‘the lie’:

  • Many self-limiting beliefs stem from childhood experiences.
  • Example: Feeling unlovable due to a parent’s absence (14:04–14:55)
  • It’s possible to reframe the story:

    “We may be affected by it, but we’re not the cause of it.” (15:13)

• When is “going back” necessary?

  • For some, learning new skills or tools is enough; others must excavate deep roots of old wounds to move forward. (15:31–16:01)

4. Narrative Therapy, Agency, and Self-Forgiveness

• Restorying Your Life:

  • Move from feeling like a bystander in your life to reclaiming agency.
  • You may not be responsible for others’ actions, but you regain power by deciding your own narrative. (16:43–17:31)

• Therapy as a Thriving Tool:

  • Therapy isn’t just for survival—it helps people bloom and reach their fullest potential. (18:58–19:46)

5. Defining Trauma and Emotional Responses

• What is trauma?

  • Trauma ‘overwhelms your capacity to cope.’ It differs from day-to-day stress. (21:39–22:26)
  • Trauma can disrupt identity, emotional regulation, and relational patterns (23:38).

• Manifestations:

  • Overreaction (10/10 responses to minor triggers).
  • Self-blame, perfectionism, catastrophizing, hypervigilance, and difficulty trusting. (26:01–27:32)

• Spotting Trauma in Yourself:

  • Ask: How do I care for myself? How do I regulate emotion? What are my relationships like? (28:17–30:55)

6. Healing Approaches and Daily Practices

• “Sacred pause” as a tool for reactivity (33:10)

• Daily check-ins: Morning and evening reflection on self-care, emotions, relationships (31:46–32:14)

• Ongoing nature of healing: Healing is not “one and done”—it requires constant remembering and recommitment (33:03)

• Balance:

  • Self-nourishment is daily; therapy can provide weekly or periodic deep dives; intensive retreats help jump-start growth but require integration (34:29–35:32)

7. Fear: Failure, Success, and Workplace Trauma

• Fear-based Responses:

  • Fear can present as perfectionism, procrastination, control, and avoiding opportunity (43:37–45:03)
  • Visualization of feared scenarios (“exposure in imagination”) helps lower anxiety about outcomes (37:24–39:44)

• Workplace Trauma and Leadership:

  • Layoffs, toxic cultures, and lack of transparency create collective wounds.
  • Handling mistakes: “Did I learn from it, so that next time...I know how to do some things differently?” (49:21)
  • Importance of transparency and care in professional settings (46:13–47:05)

• Redefining Forgiveness:

  • Forgiveness does not mean excusing the action, forgetting, or reconciling without accountability (51:36–54:33)
  • "If I say it's okay, then that means they can keep doing it. What you're saying is: I'm okay." (53:08–53:29)
  • Forgiveness can be “moving on without getting stuck in pain.” (52:24–54:33)

8. Boundaries, Burnout, and Modelling for Children

• Boundaries:

  • “You have to demonstrate the behavior—they’re watching what we do.” (56:48)
  • Model healthy boundaries and refusal of overwork to break cycles of martyrdom and over-functioning (57:01–57:49)

• Distinguishing “called” from “driven” ambition

  • Ambition is healthy only if not fueled by insecurity or trauma; otherwise, enough is “never enough.” (58:01–59:06)

9. Motherhood, Caregiving, and Accepting Help

• Let children “catch you relaxing”: Model self-care so they know achievement and rest can coexist. (59:22–60:04)
• Choose partners who value mutual support and build a “tribe”—put down the superwoman cape and accept help (63:09–64:21)
• “Receiving help can be a strength. And also, it’s human to need help.” (64:28)

10. Societal Trauma and the Pandemic

• Unprocessed collective trauma:
  • Culture of “just move on” has left grief and compassion deficits post-pandemic (68:44–69:32)
  • “It shows up in either hardening our hearts or that fragility where we’re easily annoyed and attacking others.” (69:15–69:29)

11. Triggers, Boundaries, and Dealing with Family

• Noticing Triggers:
  • When a “neutral” stimulus provokes a big reaction, it’s likely a trigger tied to trauma (72:33–73:42)
• Family boundaries:
  • Distinguish between being triggered by past behaviors and current actions; set boundaries, limits, and if necessary, limit contact (75:06–78:59)

12. Personal Accountability, Wholeness, and Healing

• Healing as Non-Negotiable:

  • “If I want to be well, I have to first acknowledge the wounds. I can’t heal what I won’t acknowledge.” (94:38)
  • Relentless ‘success’ can be a trauma response; true fulfillment comes from embracing all of oneself, including the "bad parts." (91:45–92:16)

• Relationship choices matter:

  • Surround yourself with people who “edify, not drain” (95:35–96:03)
  • Chronic healing delays often stem from remaining in unhealthy environments

13. Spiritual and Creative Practices

• Spiritual practice as grounding:
  • Start mornings with gratitude, prayer, movement, or journaling (85:15–86:52)
  • Artistic outlets (like poetry or dance) feed the soul and foster healing (87:08–88:01)
  • “To do therapy, you have to believe that things can be better than they are right now—that’s an act of faith.” (88:01–88:50)

14. Audience Q&A and Practical Takeaways

• Feeling deep, unnamed fatigue? Ask what fulfills you, and what you need to say “no” to.
• Exhaustion solved by "soul rest," not just sleep; choose what energizes, prune unsatisfying obligations (97:07–98:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Sabotage:
  “When I have taken myself out of the running...what did it cost me, and am I tired yet of paying that cost?” – Dr. Thema (10:20)

• On Reclaiming Agency:
  "Some of us...are a side character in our own lives...we have to say, now you have the pen in your hands, so now you get to make some choices." – Dr. Thema (16:43)

• On Trauma:
  "Trauma overwhelms your capacity to cope." – Dr. Thema (22:26)

• On Forgiveness:
  “You can forgive and move on. You don’t need to forgive and forget.” – Dr. Thema (54:37–54:40)

• On Wholeness:
  “To be whole is to accept all the different parts of yourself…and nurture them.” – Dr. Thema (91:45)

• On Therapy:
  “To act of faith…to do therapy, you have to believe that things can be better than they are right now.” – Dr. Thema (88:01–88:50)

• On Setting Boundaries:
  “Put down the superwoman cape and say, when you came over, were you serious? I’ll take it!” – Dr. Thema (64:10–64:21)

• On Self-Truth:
  “Tell yourself the truth...if I want to be well, I have to first acknowledge the wounds.” – Dr. Thema (94:38)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:09: Emma opens on the necessity of wholeness for real success.
• 04:50: Dr. Thema on identifying what holds you back.
• 06:27: “Why is ‘no’ so hard?”—Discussing self-rejection.
• 12:00: Cultural messages to girls about ambition and shrinkage.
• 14:04–14:55: The impact of childhood stories on adult beliefs.
• 22:26: Defining trauma as different from stress.
• 28:17–30:55: 3 self-questions to spot trauma.
• 33:10: The “sacred pause” for emotional regulation.
• 37:24–39:44: Visualization exercise for fear of failure.
• 46:13–47:05: Navigating workplace trauma and leadership.
• 51:36–54:40: Redefining forgiveness and accountability.
• 59:22–60:04: Modeling rest and release for children.
• 64:10–64:28: Accepting help and letting go of “superwoman” mentality.
• 69:15–69:29: How unprocessed collective trauma shapes society.
• 72:33–73:42: What triggers really are/how to identify them.
• 91:45–92:16: Embracing all sides of yourself for real success.
• 94:38: “Tell yourself the truth”—Dr. Thema’s essential advice.

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Tone & Style

Warm, insightful, honest, and practical. Dr. Thema gently challenges listeners to self-reflect, while offering concrete steps and compassionate encouragement. Emma grounds big ideas in relatable personal and professional scenarios.

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Practical Takeaways

• Regularly visualize both your success and your fears to unearth internalized barriers.
• Trace “the lie” back to its origin—recognize who taught you to doubt yourself.
• Choose friends and colleagues who honor your potential, not those who require your shrinking.
• Institute daily check-ins (morning and evening) on self-care, boundaries, and fulfillment.
• Embrace therapy and/or structured retreats, but remember: healing is daily, not a one-off event.
• Set clear boundaries at home and work—model these especially for your children.
• Redefine forgiveness as freeing yourself, not excusing others' actions.
• Know that wholeness is the acceptance and integration of every part of you.
• Tell yourself the truth, even when it’s complicated—healing begins with honest self-inventory.

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This episode is a master class in unraveling the hidden patterns that keep high-achievers stuck. Dr. Thema's message is both hopeful and actionable: healing old wounds is not indulgence—it's the key to sustainable success and authentic joy.

Transcript

[A]

There's something I come back to again and again on this show and in my own life, and it's the realization that you cannot manifest true success if you're not whole. You can be in constant motion. You can build, create, lead, hustle, push. But if you haven't dealt with all your old stuff, if you're not taking accountability for your life, at some point, it all catches up with you. Now I've lived this. I've built companies, taken risks, and I've raised four kids. And I've still had to confront my own anger, my trauma, and the parts of myself I didn't want to look at. Because healing for me hasn't been optional. It's been a non negotiable. But here's the part that's harder to talk about. We don't always know how to start healing or what healing even looks like, especially when life is busy, complicated and full of responsibility. That's why I'm so excited to bring you today's guest, Dr. Tamar Bryant. Dr. Tamar is a clinical psychologist, a minister, and one of the most powerful voices I've ever heard when it comes to healing trauma, integrating your life and coming home to yourself. Her work is deep and layered. She brings the science and the soul, and she's helped so many people, myself included, rethink what it really means to grow. In this conversation, we talk about how trauma, big or small, shapes. Usually we get into perfectionism, fear, guilt, burnout, self forgiveness, and that very real struggle of trying to hold it all together while quietly falling apart. We talk about leadership and workplace trauma and what it means to show up as a whole person in environments that don't always allow for wholeness. Coming up, Dr. Tamer Bryant. Calling all sourdough tamers, souffle whisperers, jammy egg savants. Whether you're a pro behind the line or just mastering your weeknight favorites, one brand can seriously uplevel your kitchen game. Hedley and Bennett. They make premium kitchen gear that's the perfect blend of style, durability and function. We're talking everything from aprons to super sharp Japanese steel knives. Tools that not only look great, but truly perform. They've sold over a million aprons, and it shows. You've probably spotted them on top chefs in your favorite restaurants and on your go to cooking shows. That's because every Headley and Bennett product is designed by chefs for chefs using only the highest quality materials. And they're built to last. Literally every product comes with a lifetime guarantee. If you're looking for a standout gift. Their new collabs with mlb, NFL, Star Wars, Disney and more make Headley and Bennett the perfect gift for every cook and every fan. Check them out and see why pros and home cooks alike switch swear by them. Ready to upgrade your kitchen? Head over to hedleyandbennet.com and use code PODCAST15 at checkout for 15% off your order. That's podcast 15 for 15% off. Elevate your cooking experience with Headley and Bennett today. Introducing the new Eggo Protein Waffles. The same great Eggo taste people know and love. Now with 20% of your daily protein in every serving, protein never tasted this good. These waffles deliver an excellent source of complete protein with 10 gram per serving and are made with wholesome ingredients fresh from the griddle. Perfect as part of a complete breakfast. Eggo Protein Waffles pair easily with fresh fruit, almond butter, or whatever is already in the kitchen. They offer a delicious way to start the day with irresistible taste families are looking for. When something tastes this good and delivers this much protein, no one can say no. Head to your local grocery store to fuel your morning with Eggo Protein waffles and pancakes available at retailers nationwide. I just have to say I'm really incredibly happy to have you here today.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It feels like just a long time coming and I have so many questions to ask you.

[B]

Oh, wonderful.

[A]

I've said it already, but I'm gonna try to not turn it into my own personal therapy session.

[B]

I bet questions you have many people have. So even if it is some of the what's coming from your heart, I think it will connect.

[A]

You know what? I really, really hope so. And that kind of brings me to my start because one of my strong beliefs is that I really believe that success is well within all of our grasp. Right. We can all be successful. But there's often so much that will stand in our way that we are either not ready to face or we haven't quite figured out what it is. And I really wanted to talk to you today about baggage and unresolved issues and how people even begin to identify what might be holding them back. And I wonder if you would start there. Like, how do you even start to understand what might be stopping you from living the life of your dreams?

[B]

Yeah. So a part of what can help us is to imagine ourselves in this other place, to say, what a success to me. And then if I were to see myself successful, what comes up? What are my concerns about what life would look like when I am Successful. And then we'll start to unwrap what are some of the reasons why we're holding ourselves back. Because we're worried about what will happen in those places, right? That I may get the opportunity but then not be prepared. Or I may get the opportunity and then people will judge me and think I'm one of those people. Or I may get the opportunity and then find out if it's not fulfilling or maybe it's gonna block me from these other things that I'm interested in in life. And so our imagining and vision work helps to reveal both our hopes and our fears.

[A]

And what is that? Is that self preservation? Like, why do we do that so much?

[B]

Well, a big part of it is we like to control outcomes. Most of us don't like to be surprised, right? So we're like, definitely not. We like to go things, go after things that feel like a sure thing. Right. If I don't believe I can get it, like, why try? Whereas for many of us to be successful, you have to say, what's the worst thing that can happen? Is I get a no and so what, right? I can like take the no, shake it off and try again and maybe get some feedback to know what made it a no. Cause there may be something I can work on.

[A]

Why is no so hard for so many of us both to hear, but.

[B]

Also to say yeah, part of it in terms of hearing is it can confirm the self rejection or the insecurity we have. Like, if I feel good about myself and someone tells me no, now just say like, so what? Or they're missing out on a good thing. But if part of me is wondering, am I enough, then professionally or socially, if someone gives me a no, it hits at the core of my unworthiness, right? That they must have seen through me and discovered I'm not enough. And because it hurts so much, that's why it's hard for many of us to say no. And we become conflict avoided, which can be a real problem in the workplace, especially if you're the leader, Right. Then you have to be willing to say the hard thing. But we may think about times we were hurt, we were disappointed, and don't realize that by putting it off, we're actually making it worse.

[A]

And I feel that so much because I think a lot of people would feel like if they're conflict avoidant, like that's a really good thing, like I don't want to be in conflict. But what happens when you constantly go in around avoiding conflict?

[B]

Yes. When you constantly avoid it then people get the sense no one's minding the shop, so now everyone has to be out for themselves. It becomes competitive and secretive because, for example, some people who are conflict avoidant will agree with whoever's sitting in front of them. And so then that person thinks like, oh, good, you're on my side. You're on my team. And they go back, and then it becomes clear that you've basically said that to everyone. So it's meaningless. Yeah.

[A]

No, that makes so much sense to me. How do you even begin to start unpacking your emotional baggage and the things that are stopping you from doing what you need to do?

[B]

Yeah. So we start to look at what are our core beliefs? And initially we can do that by looking at our behaviors. What are the things that I do that sabotage me? What are the ways I'm standing in my way? And then if we were doing, like, a cognitive model, we would say, like, thoughts, feelings, behavior. So the behavior may be, I always wait to the last minute to do some project or assignment.

[A]

That is so me. I like to say I work better under pressure.

[B]

Maybe that's not it. Well, I will say it can reinforce it. Right. Cause, I mean, I've had that experience too, where you're like, I did it at the last minute and it turned out great. So, like. Right. The way I'll challenge myself is, if it turned out that good last minute, imagine how much better it could have been if I gave it time. Right? Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, we start to look at this phrase of, like, who lied to me? So when I have this, like, negative belief about myself, it came from somewhere. And that's an important piece. Cause sometimes we're just beating ourselves up and saying, like, it doesn't make sense, or, why would I do that? Or I'm being ridiculous. But I always say, if you take me back far enough in your story, it will make sense. And you'll find the stories we were told from the people who raised us, from teachers, from peers, and we took that in and then have been operating as if it's true, and then keep.

[A]

Telling ourselves those stories. Because I think about this all the time, like, the ideas and the stories that we tell ourselves constantly. And I think that one of my habits and what I've tried to do in my life is to speak to myself. Well, right. Like, just the stories that I tell me every day, I try to get really purposeful and intentional about that. But what do you do if that's just not your default? Because these things become so Much a part of you, how do you just stop that type of behavior?

[B]

So a big part of it is seeing what it's cost me. Right. So an example would be if I have the thought that I'm not going to be chosen for this job or for this project. I'm thinking that. I'm thinking that. I'm thinking that I show up either defensive or anxious or I don't try my best because then it won't hurt as much, Right. If I'm not selected. And so then I have gotten, in my own way, I call it standing on my wings. Right. So when I have taken myself out of the running, when I didn't bring my full self, what did it cost me, you know, and am I tired yet of paying that cost or is that comfortable? Sometimes I'm sabotaging myself and I'm really trying to stay in that box because it's comfortable and it's familiar. You know, being a big fish in a little pond can feel good, right. I'm like, I'm the smartest person I know. Well, get around some other smart people because iron sharpens iron. But if I'm insecure, I won't like that. It'll be uncomfortable to be in the presence of greatness.

[A]

Wow, that's a really big thing, standing on your own wings. Yeah. What an idea to think that you could do that to yourself, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we all do it, right? Do we all do it?

[B]

Well, I will say there are some of us that get the message more to hide, and one of those groups being women. Right. So when we've done research studies with girls in school and even in college, we will be more likely to start a statement with I think. And men will start it and say it as a fact or we won't raise our hands at all. So, like that, questioning ourselves and what is.

[A]

That's just cultural conditioning.

[B]

That's just how we're raised, that we are raised. When we think about what are the messages we give girls, even, like, in terms of toys. Girls are given toys to caretake and cook dolls and kitchens. And boys are given toys to, like, go and do, like trucks and tools. So you do and you take care of everyone else. So then the message we get is hide yourself, erase yourself. That you will be seen as a better woman if you don't have a lot of needs or demands, but that you're taking care of everyone else. That's the message.

[A]

That's the message from childhood? Yes, from two years old.

[B]

Right. And I had a friend who Was an engineering major in college and he talked about, because he assisted the professor. Sometimes there's an unconscious bias where people don't even know they're doing it. But he noticed if a student was struggling in class and came and talked to the professor. If it was a male student, the professor would work with them, encourage them, help them. If it was a female student, the professor would say, maybe you're not cut out for this. You should think about a different major. Wow, right? Like systematically, each time woven through the.

[A]

Fabric of our society. That's what it is. So as women, how do we even begin? Because if society is somewhat hardwired and we are just following what's happening, how do we even get around some of that stuff? Where do you even begin?

[B]

So a part of it is getting in the environment or getting around people who like women with wings. Right.

[A]

There are people choosing your company really well.

[B]

Yes, yes. So you can feel it out. Like if I have to hide or shrink in your presence, then I want to minimize my time in that kind of space. Versus with other people. You tell them you're dreaming, they're like, awesome. Sounds great.

[A]

Yeah, let's go. Yeah, yeah, that's really good advice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're like, it's all about who you surround yourself with.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

That makes so much sense. So in your work, what are some of the tools and the practices that help people begin to untangle those childhood wounds?

[B]

So it is for us to recognize the lies. And the lies are based on like, meaning making. We create stories. Like you were saying, you try to tell yourself good stories. We create stories to try to make our lives make sense. Right. So let's say you had a parent who abandoned you. Then you may say, if I was smarter, cuter, better, then they would have stayed. Right. So now the story I'm going out in life with is I'm not lovable, I'm not easy to love, I'm not easy to choose. I'm not smart enough. And so now I'm living like that. So then I try to help people look at the root of the lie, the start of it. And then if we can consider a different story. So maybe their leaving had nothing to do with you. Right. Because we always think about ourselves as the center.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Right. I'm the reason. And so there are many different reasons people do what they do, and often it is out of their own wounds. And we may be affected by it, but we're not the cause of it. So if I can consider that as a possibility, then I can say, so.

[A]

Now what do you have to go back to your childhood? Because I know for so many people that is. It's so painful, the idea of going back. And also, you might not even want to drag up things that you think, well, that was in the past, but is that a prerequisite of healing? Like that you have to go back and unpack it.

[B]

So not for everyone, but it depends on how deep rooted it is. So some people, and this is how you can know it for yourself, some people just need skills training. So some of us were never taught how to negotiate around salary. We're never taught interviewing skills. So then if someone gives you those skills, you're like, awesome. I apply it and I run with it. So I would say that going back is for those of us that even though you know what you're quote unquote supposed to do, you still have trouble doing it.

[A]

And I love the way you bring it to such practical things like negotiating your worth and thinking about your salary. Because what you're saying is that your inability to do some of those things can stem from things that happened a very long time ago. Stories that you tell yourself that may not necessarily be true.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So if I was somebody that had. Let's just go back to that neglectful parent, right? And those are the stories that you've been telling yourself. Again, how do you begin to say, and perhaps those things were true, maybe you did have a neglectful parent. So I really just want to understand, like, how do you speak to your clients and how do you speak to people about unpacking that and getting through it?

[B]

Right? So a big part there is, there's one approach to therapy which is called narrative therapy. So with narrative therapy, you're re storying your life. Now, some of us, because we've had things happen to us, the story we tell, we are a side character in our own lives. So when I'm a side character, I can recite to you what has been done to me, but I don't still feel I have voice or agency. So then I have to say, like, let's tell it this story again, where, yes, these people did these things, but like, now you have the pen in your hands, so now you get to make some choices. And your choice does not have to align with their choice. Because sometimes we are treating ourselves based on how other people treated us, which still makes them the central character of our lives.

[A]

Wow, that is a really big shift.

[B]

To know I don't have to keep, you know, let's Say, you know, you were rejected, or someone said you weren't a good writer, or someone said you weren't attractive. How are you now living. That confirms that, that gives that weight. Or like the radical, revolutionary thing of even though all of these people treated me in this particular way, part of me doesn't have to be my whole self. A part of me still believes that is not true.

[A]

That's a really big, I mean, that's a really big thing to stop thinking about that some of it might not be true.

[B]

Right. Because, you know, we often work by evidence. So let's say you've had a series of bad relationships. You may then conclude, like, this is the best it can be for me. Right. No one's ever treated me well. Maybe some people get like the fairy tale that's for them. But like, for whatever reason, I don't get that. So then that's when we start to settle. That's when we accept the breadcrumbs because we're like, nothing better is coming. So let me hold onto this piece of a person who calls me after 10pm or comes by when they want to or, you know, because it's my best. And so if I can re narrate the story, can I believe for what I have not yet seen?

[A]

And yes, the answer is you can, right? You absolutely can. Yes. Does everybody need therapy, do you think?

[B]

I think everyone could benefit from it, yeah. And when we say need, you know, people, some people can get through life. But what I like to say, and I think it's a part of your work, is do you wanna survive or do you wanna thrive? Right?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

So if you're good just kind of going through the basics, and let me say, for some people, survival mode is an accomplishment because there may been a number of things that, like, try to squash your life. But if I wanna live at my maximum, if I want to, on focus, flourish, if I want to bloom, if I want to thrive, if I want more than what I have seen, not just, well, financially, emotionally, spiritually, then I want to invest time and effort into doing that work.

[A]

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[A]

I want to talk to you about, you know, what I understand as the cornerstone of your work that's really all around this idea of trauma. And I think for so many of us, sometimes just saying trauma feels traumatic. You know, it's like you may not want to admit that that's been a part of your life, but I also guess not all of us have had like deep rooted, deep seated trauma. So I really want you to try to unpack a little bit the idea of how trauma can affect all of us.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So I want to first say there are like day to day stressors, things that are stressful.

[A]

Like do you think traumas thrown around like a little bit too much?

[B]

Yeah. Some people don't understand. So if something is stressful, they'll say, I'm traumatized. Yeah, okay, Right. So I'll say, no, you're stressed.

[A]

No, you're stressed out. It's been a bad day.

[B]

Yes, yes. Right. If like an hour later you're, you know, all better. Yeah, that was stress. Yeah. But trauma are these overwhelming experiences. They overwhelm our usual capacity to cope. So the regular types of stress we can deal with. Like I have this role and this role, this responsibility and I can make it work. But then with trauma, the things that usually work for me are not working in this moment.

[A]

It's a really great definition. You said that trauma overwhelms your capacity to cope. That's when it's no longer within your reach to just get on with life.

[B]

Right, Absolutely. And that's why two people can go through the same thing. And some people develop, like, post traumatic stress, and some people don't.

[A]

And you see that with siblings often. Right. Same household, you grew up in the same house, and you have very different experiences of the same parents or the same circumstance or whatever that might be.

[B]

Yes. Part of it can be personality. A part of it can be prior experiences. Because some of us have cumulative effect, meaning we've had multiple traumas. So then the impact can be multiplied. It overwhelms your usual capacity to cope. Ongoing trauma can disrupt your sense of yourself. So you may have felt like, I know who I am. Right. And then something happens and you're like, wait a minute. Right. Like, so who am I? Because my idea of myself, that would not have happened to me. Right. So it can disrupt your sense of yourself. It makes it difficult for you to regulate your emotions. So those of us who have seen or been someone who goes from like 1 to 10. Right.

[A]

And, oh, I know those people.

[B]

Right. You're like, wait, what happened?

[A]

I think I was one of those people. Absolutely.

[B]

Yes. That sometimes you're like. And sometimes what that is is tolerating a lot. And so it's building, building, building. And so then when one more thing happens, boom. But the thing, the last thing that happened may not be a big thing, but you had already been holding so much. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, I feel like that was just part of my training. That was my default mode growing up. You. And it's because there was so much going on all the time that was the regular course of our day, that the smallest thing would happen. One poor teacher would say the wrong thing, and off that was it.

[B]

You're exploding.

[A]

And it takes a lot to untrain that out of you.

[B]

One of the things I do with people in therapy is help them to rank an event. Let's say on a scale 1 to 10, how offensive was it? Because some people make everything a 10. So then they have to respond at level 10 over things that I would say are not drama worthy.

[A]

That's a good tool.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's a good tool.

[B]

Cause some people don't. Like, they can't think of a three or four. Like, if someone didn't speak to them or looked at them wrong, they're like, 10. I'm like, that's not a 10.

[A]

That's not a 10. That's a solid three right there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a really good way to think about your response.

[B]

To things, though. Yes. It's like, does it match? Because when another thing, that one, when we respond like that to everything, it's exhausting to us. But two people don't take us seriously. You're going off about everything. It becomes a non event. Yeah.

[A]

I think that's what I realized as a kid, as a teenager, that not everything needed my maximum energy. And then when something was really wrong, as you said, nobody listened, nobody cared, because you were always raging. And so it doesn't matter. I wanted to talk to you about some of the ways that trauma show up in your life. And I was thinking like, for, you know, self blame, perfectionism, catastrophizing defensiveness, These are all ways that trauma ultimately can manifest in our behaviors. How do you spot that stuff in yourself? Like, in what other ways does trauma manifest itself in our lives and our behaviors?

[B]

Yeah. So another one is difficulty trusting. When we are like, always, oh, I.

[A]

Feel like you studied me. I have many of these. I need a pen and paper.

[B]

But the great part is the self awareness. Right. Cause some people are in such denial that they're like, I don't know who she's talking about. Right.

[A]

They can never show up.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, I hope y' all listen.

[A]

I know those people too.

[B]

Yes, yes. So it's a. Yeah, it's a great awareness when you're like, yeah, that sounds.

[A]

How do we. Me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that difficulty trusting, when people have broken our trust, then we can enter into new places with that. We call it hyper vigilance. Right. And so we are looking for the dishonor, looking for the disrespect, because we don't want to be caught by surprise. Right.

[A]

A lot of people don't realize that something like that is a big problem in their life because they're like, well, that's on me. I have a problem trusting people. But that will stand in the way of your best relationships, your greatest triumphs, like whatever it might be.

[B]

Yes. One. One of the things I see sometimes when people come in for therapy, they're unpartnered and like, the other parts of their life are successful. And they're like, I really want to meet someone. And then they'll describe for me, like, their process with people, and it's just like, eliminate, Eliminate. Because they're looking for, like, what's wrong? They're looking. And it's not that you want to accept just anything, but there's a difference between standards and, like, being paranoid.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Some of us are standing in Our way.

[A]

Well, and if you want to be in a happy, loving relationship, there's an element of you have to be open, you have to be fallible. You have to know what's wrong with you so that you can meet somebody where they are.

[B]

That's right. Because that issue of intimacy is like being known, being seen, being valued. And if I'm perpetually performing, then there's no intimacy because I'm not letting anyone in. Yeah. So, you know, it's risky. And understandably, many people are afraid to take the risk. But the cost is, then I end up isolated, even though I desire connection.

[A]

So if you had to break it down, what are the three questions that we could ask ourselves to identify our trauma?

[B]

I would say those. The three pieces would be, how. If you didn't tell me how you felt about yourself, how would your care of yourself? Tell me how you feel about yourself? Because a lot of people say, I love myself, I love myself, but do.

[A]

You take care of yourself?

[B]

Right. Exactly right. So I look at your level of care to indicate. And that will include your boundary setting, it'll include your rest, it'll include your nutrition. Can I say, like, I'm eating this because I love myself. I'm eating this because I want to live. Right. So how do I take care of myself? Or am I more prone to self neglect, self erasure, self abandonment? If I neglect myself often, that is unhealed trauma. Right. A second one is around that emotional regulation. If I either get overwhelmed by my emotions on a regular basis or. Or some emotions are not acceptable to me, then I want to ask, like, where that come from? And so I'll give by way of example, this isn't a traumatic incident, but it's messaging, socializing. You know, I grew up in a family, in a community where people would often say to kids, fix your face all the time.

[A]

I had a Jamaican granddad pick up your lip.

[B]

That's her. And the message is like, you can't look how you look. Yeah, it's gonna look upset. You gotta look pleasant, grateful.

[A]

I faith.

[B]

And so now we're adults who mask. So then literally in therapy, if I say to someone, oh, that sounds like that upset you. No, it didn't. I don't care. Right. Cause we're not allowed to feel it. So are there certain emotions that I am dehumanizing myself? Because humans feel right. So if I can never be sad, if I can never be lonely, if I can never be angry, if I can never be embarrassed. Right. Where's my humanity? I'M treating myself like a robot. And then the third one is around the relationships. So what is my capacity to develop and maintain mutual, reciprocal relationships? Because a lot of us do. The one sided relationship. You know, you're the strong one in your friendship circle, the strong one in your family. You're running things and everything is like, you're not vulnerable or open with anybody. Right. When you're struggling, you disappear, you self isolate and then show up again when you're shiny. Right? Yeah. So then that's not a relationship.

[A]

That's not it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is three really great questions to ask yourself. Yes, that's super, super, super helpful. How am I taking care of myself? That's a, I mean, that's a really deep question because that affects so many things in your life. And we're not talking about self care, we're not talking about a skincare reg. This is like the fundamentals of how you're looking after yourself. And then how do you emotionally regulate and then what are your relationships like with others?

[B]

That will lead us to big questions. When I say, like, how am I doing? We usually say fine or blessed. But like, how am I doing with my emotions? How am I doing with my relationships? How am I doing with not abandoning myself?

[A]

Do you have a way, like a system of checking in on yourself that you do, like using those three things or anything? And how often would you do that just to make sure you're okay?

[B]

I would say it's a good thing to check in with yourself in the morning and then again at the end of the day. Every day, Every day, check in. Because losing yourself or losing sight of yourself can be subtle. And if you look up, you could have weeks, months, years pass when you were living like some other person. Right. Because you're going through the motions of living. Right. So I want to slow down and check in.

[A]

Yeah. And if I think, I mean, just thinking about myself for a little while. There have been times in my life I suffered tremendously with, you know, huge anger issues and did a lot of anger management and therapy and as a result of, you know, childhood trauma. But I worked through a lot of that in my 20s. But it really takes some doing and it takes constant remembering because whenever I'm in a stressful situation or things get too much, that's the default, Right. I can go back there in a second. It's the most familiar place for me.

[B]

That's why we have to recognize growing pains or the stretching. Healing is uncomfortable, right? Healing will be unfamiliar because your go to is the Dysfunction.

[A]

And it's not one and done. You don't get to deal with it at one point and then it goes away forever and ever.

[B]

That's that analogy.

[A]

That's not my experience.

[B]

Right. Whenever you feel stressed or something triggers you or awakens you, like, you can go back to that. So I like to call it sacred pause. Like, before I respond, let me take a sacred pause to decide how I want to respond.

[A]

Oh yeah, that's something we can always do. I mean, there's nothing like a breath and a little bit of silence to just quickly regulate. That's what I do during the day. And it was like a cornerstone of anger management, just learning to not respond.

[B]

Because the other way, we don't think we have a choice. We're like, I had to. They did this or they did that.

[A]

And you don't want to be caught on the back foot. You're like, I gotta go, otherwise I lost already, you know?

[B]

Yeah, it's a war. So there's winners and losers and I'm not gonna lose. So it's like, well, there's another way.

[A]

There is another way. I mean, I feel like throughout my life I've done different types of therapy. And a couple of years ago I did like an intensive course, the Hoffman process, which maybe, you know, and I wanted to ask you about things like that. Like how much do you believe between the self regulation and looking after yourself and checking in with yourself to, you know, regular weekly therapy or the intensive courses, what do you believe is the most beneficial? What should people do? And is there any right answer or is it all so individual?

[B]

Yeah, So I think everyone needs caring for the self practices. And those, as we're saying, like, need to be daily. Now the amount of time I can give it will vary by day. Right. So you want to also come up with like short ways of nourishing yourself. Right. Taking breath, drinking water, you know, taking a moment. So, and that includes, like when I schedule my day, try not to schedule things back to back to back to back. So I give myself those breathers. That's a regular part of life in therapy. Most people either do once a week or every other week. In terms of courses. Sometimes it is like to jumpstart your learning. It's like, I want to do this or a retreat, but then it becomes, how do I live it out, right? So I can immerse myself in a program. And that's very helpful. Then it's the practice, right. And the application. Because many of us will say, like, I heard a good Podcast, or I heard a good speech, or I read a great book, but then the application isn't there. Yeah.

[A]

And how do I carry that through my everyday life? I mean, for me, I've always really enjoyed those things. Cause I do think there's a benefit to that intensive learning and also the dedication of time, because we're all so that for me, if I decide I'm taking nine days to focus on myself to do my individual work, then, you know, I bet I will take those practices into my everyday life because I've dedicated so much. But I think it's a really interesting way to kickstart some of your understanding around these things. And I don't think that I necessarily came from a place where these were discussions we were happening. It was like, just figure it out, get on with it, keep it moving.

[B]

And this is a key part that many times people who raised us or taught us or mentored us didn't have access to.

[A]

They didn't know any better.

[B]

And so when they say, like, I made it through without it. Well, the truth is, if we look closely, they didn't make it through without scars. Right. It showed up in the way they parented us. It showed us in the way they approach work. It showed up in the ways they treated themselves. And so sometimes people raise it as this banner of, I went through terrible things and never got any help. Yeah. And we see that.

[A]

And we see that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's showing up every single day in your life and your behaviors. And, you know, on this show, there are so many people that are, you know, thinking about starting businesses or, you know, forging great careers. And I talk a lot about making, you know, bold steps and taking big, big moves. But often what holds us back is fear.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And, you know, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about fear, because oftentimes it's rooted in nothing. It's rooted in just what we've decided and the stories, again, that we're telling ourselves. And I wonder how you move through some of that fear and learn to let it go.

[B]

Yes. So one of them, if it's a fear of failure, then imagine failing. And then imagine yourself surviving the failure.

[A]

So talk me through that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You want a new position in the company that you're working for. And you know that you need to put. You make yourself vulnerable, put yourself out there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you're saying, imagine yourself. Imagine that not happening.

[B]

Right. They might pick somebody else. Right. So of course you hope it's you. But let's say they pick whoever down the hall, right? And then picture yourself the day after you found out. It's going to be, Susie, picture yourself waking up. What are you going to do to take care of yourself before you go into the office? Do you have anybody in the office that you want to meet for coffee or tea before you? And then you all could walk in together. No one's gonna say anything. No one's gonna be like, aha, you didn't get.

[A]

No.

[B]

So then you walk in, and now Susie, maybe you wanna walk past her office and say, congratulations or not. You could choose, right? And then you go back to doing so. You're not gonna be demoted because you went for it. Now you're just doing what you were doing before. So you didn't lose anything. Except people know you have a desire for more, so maybe they can be looking out for you when other opportunities come.

[A]

What's the psychology behind that? When you asked us to go through and like, live that experience, take yourself there, what is that actually doing?

[B]

So it is exposure. So we're, we're. We have a fear of the unknown or what we have never experienced. So I can have exposure, like real life exposure, which will be like, if I don't get it, but I can also have it in my imagination, right? So then I'm experiencing it in my nervous system. I'm picturing that and then I'm seeing myself survive it. Because before I do that, it's like a blank. I think, like, what if I don't get it and everything goes blank? So then I, like, I don't think I could survive that. I think it'll be so humiliating. I can't picture myself being able to move past it. So now we can imagine it.

[A]

Is that a style of visualization?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. So whether it's fear of failure or fear of success, imagining and thinking through, like, what is this?

[A]

Are people scared of success?

[B]

Yeah, they are. Yeah, some people. So it can be for different reasons. Sometimes they're afraid of success because they have seen people who are in the limelight get attacked. Or some people don't want, like, the responsibility of it, the weight of it. Some people don't want the social consequences because let's say all of the co workers talk bad about the boss. Then you're in the club, right? And it's like, ha, ha, right? So now if I'm out there, they're talking about me. Yeah. So some people, you know, are afraid of success or afraid of, you know what it means. I had a friend who grew up struggling and had negative thoughts about rich people. It's like they're selfish or they're this or they're bougie or whatever. And so then he got a job and made a lot of money. And so he was very conflicted about, like, but what does this mean? Am I now one of them? Well, maybe your idea of them has to change what's wrong, right? More humanized. You know, there are people there who are, like, selfish and whatever, and there are people who are very generous and kind. So, yeah, there are some people who are afraid of succeeding.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah. So some people who are controlling are controlling because they're afraid. Right. They're afraid of what's gonna happen. And that can also be a part of distrust. Like, I don't trust other people to do an excellent job, and I'm afraid if I hand it over to them, it's gonna be a disaster. So now I'm micromanaging. Now I'm like, you know, carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders, or so I think. Right.

[A]

These are often very female traits as well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Nobody can do it as well as I can. I might as well do it myself. I'm just gonna overload.

[B]

Yes. I'll just do it. Yeah. I'll just. And we think about those of us who, in school hated group projects. Right. Just like, yeah, they're gonna let me down.

[A]

I was always trying not to be picked. I mean, I'll do on my own. I don't want to mess up my.

[B]

Thing, you know, Because I trust me. Right. I trust me. And if I do it, it's gonna be excellent. But that's that anxiety of like, yes, yeah. Can I trust other people? Connect with other people? Sometimes the anxiety can show up by us not advocating for ourselves, by us accepting poor treatment, because we may believe if I speak up for myself, people will get angry or people will abandon me or people won't choose me. So then I am censoring myself. I'm contorting myself to be acceptable.

[A]

And that happens a lot in the workplace with people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I love to talk to you about workplace trauma, because I think that. That I don't know that people know exactly what that looks like all of the time. But if you are censoring yourself, if you're not coming to the table as your whole self and you're feeling like you have to present some other version, like, that is real trauma in the workplace, isn't it?

[B]

And it shows up. A big one, I'll say is happening now is companies who are doing these mass layoffs. So then. And people are knowing they could be next and having to show up and do the job. Right.

[A]

Anyway, that's hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you also see how people who may have been here for years they let them go and, like, no one ever mentions them again. So that's that realizing, too, you've been loyal to this thing that's not loyal to you. So that can stir up all kinds of emotions. That understandably makes it difficult.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, I've seen this firsthand because, I mean, look, most companies go through times when there are big layoffs. And I think what I've learned over the past 10 years is that it's transparency that matters to people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

When you try to do something like that and you don't address it with everyone and you don't talk about it after, and you pretend that Sally that you used to sit next to didn't exist. That's the big issue. These things happen, and they're in the usual course of business. But how you communicate how those people are treated, how the people that are left are spoken to.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And the level of transparency, that's the important thing.

[B]

Yeah. If we're in denial, no one's talking about it, and we know, like, this thing is changing people's lives, then there's, like, a lack of caretaking. Right. A lack of honoring of people. And so, yes, to say, like, we're in this terrible situation, this is happening, we want to check in. We want to be transparent. We want to tell people what's going on or where we are in the process that makes a difference.

[A]

Is trauma that you experience in the workplace very, very different from what you might experience in your own personal life.

[B]

Right. So, one, I want to say most of these incidents in the workplace, I would call stress. Right. Instead of a trauma. Right. So it may be, you know, the stress of layoffs versus, you know, when there has been, like, violence in the workplace and we've seen those kinds of things happen, or the cumulative effect of sexual harassment. And even if it didn't get to the physical point, it just is continuing over time, then that can have kind of traumatizing effects.

[A]

Yeah, it's a totally different thing. It's a totally different thing. And how we deal with it has.

[B]

To be completely different. And then we want to connect it with, in terms of trauma, when we've had experiences in trauma outside of the workplace, how that can affect the way we show up in the workplace. Right. So if I grew up or had, like, secure relationships as an adult, then I can show up to work, and I'm kind of expecting things to go according to plan. I'm not coming in suspicious.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I'm just. I Feel like, secure. And my expectations are this will be a healthy place versus if I, you know, been in situations where it's inconsistent. People say one set of rules and then treat you another way. You know, now I'm coming into the workplace with a lot of anxiety and so I may start overworking, trying to like, prove myself, trying to be enough and like setting no boundaries and then also having issues with people in authority. You know, some people just cause you're their supervisor, they're having all this anger because their experience of. Of people with power has not been good.

[A]

Yeah. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about leadership, because I think it's a place where a lot of people find themselves in positions of leadership. But you're not gonna get everything right all the time. So how do you deal with that? In a workplace scenario when you feel like you're in a position of authority, you're expected to get things right all the time. How do we forgive ourselves from the missteps, from things that perhaps don't go right the first time around or. Or if you've just got regrets about things like that.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great one. I like to call it pulling the wisdom out of the womb. Right. So I've been through some things. I didn't always get it right. The key is like, did I learn from it so that next time, you know, I know how to do some things differently. I remember I was working at a university and coordinating their sexual assault response program. And I came in new, fresh, and saw all kinds of issues with the system. And so I was very soon saying, like, you know, this system is broken. We need a whole new system of guns placed in. Right. Oh, yeah. Had not taken into account that everybody in the room built this system.

[A]

So I'm like, sorry.

[B]

Oh, right. I'm like, oh, not you. Well, you know, kind of you. But it's like. But if I had that in my mind. Yes. I would have framed it differently. And in the future, when I've been in places where like, some things need to change to first start off with like, honoring the people who have, you know, kept the boat afloat. And like, we want to build on their successes.

[A]

Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

[B]

Yeah. So I learned from it. And then I think it's also for us to acknowledge it to the team that the willingness to recognize when you've made a mistake. Yeah.

[A]

And that's all it often takes. It's about the recognition. It's really, really difficult. It's difficult for people.

[B]

Yes. Because they feel like you said this assumption of, like, I'm supposed to get everything right. Well, but you didn't. Right. So now a way of getting it right is acknowledging that you, like, learned from that path. Right. That we're gonna do things differently going forward instead of pretending it didn't happen.

[A]

Instead of pretending. What about forgiveness? Like, when we start to think about how we can move forward through trauma, through whatever might have happened in our life, professional, personal or otherwise, how do we redefine forgiveness? Because it's one of those things that can make. You know, depending who you are and where you come from, it can be a very, very complex emotion. Is that an emotion? But it's a complex process. Yeah. A complex thing to think about.

[B]

Right. So we have to really unpack what we mean when we say forgiveness. Because some people will say things that aren't true. Like, if you forgive, you'll never think about it again. That's just not true. Like, neurologically, like, it doesn't work. So. Because then if you think about it, people say, well, you must have not forgiven. That's not true. If something was big, you're never forgetting it, necessarily. Yes. Yeah. Forgiving also doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal. Sometimes we don't wanna forgive. Cause we think that we're saying it didn't matter. Right. And forgiveness can be a process. So you can first give yourself permission to feel what you feel. Cause some of us are trying to do, like, the instant thing of, like, soon as it happened, we're like, oh, no, no, I'm over it. And it's like, no, you're not.

[A]

Very rarely.

[B]

Right. Yeah. So just allow yourself to first feel the impact of it. Right. The reason you're saying there is something to forgive is there was a wrong that was done. So can you give yourself permission to grieve, to have anger, to have frustration? I like to say it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things. And some outrageous things have happened. So I don't have to pretend that it wasn't outrageous. It's just that with forgiveness, I don't wanna get stuck there. So when I forgive, I give myself permission to not have to stay stuck in that place of being worked up and overwhelmed by other people's actions.

[A]

That's a reframing of forgiveness though, isn't it? Because I think the way that maybe we traditionally think about forgiveness is that whatever happened was somehow okay. But that's totally different from what you just described.

[B]

Because also, if I say it's okay, Then that means they can keep doing it. Right. Right.

[A]

What you're saying is, I'm okay, I'm.

[B]

Okay, I'm okay, and we can become okay. If I choose to reconcile, we can work so that we're okay, but the action was not okay. Do you always.

[A]

Do you have to forgive to be able to move past something?

[B]

Well, I'm gonna say it depends on who you ask. From a therapist, you don't have to. Right. And I give that caution because religious people.

[A]

I was just gonna cite it as a pastor.

[B]

Right. And even as. And I would say even as a pastor, I don't interpret the word in the way many people think. So many people, when they say, you must forgive, what they're really trying to say is you must reconcile. And that's not true. And if you're a person of faith, it's not even biblical. Right. That to reconciliation requires what we call repentance. So a change of mind, meaning you're not gonna keep doing it. Right. So I can forgive someone who's not sorry, but I can't be reconciled with someone who's not sorry. Cause they're gonna keep doing hurtful things.

[A]

That's some clarification.

[B]

Yeah. So you can forgive and move on.

[A]

You can forgive and move on. You don't need to forgive and forget.

[B]

Right. It's, you know, in order for us to. To heal us, then people have to acknowledge what they did was wrong and be actively working to not keep doing it.

[A]

That is very clear. Yeah, it's a very clear definition, I would say.

[B]

And it puts accountability with the person.

[A]

That's fine. On the other person. Yes, exactly.

[B]

I often frame it as, no matter what they do to you, you're just supposed to keep forgiving, forgiving, forgiving. And there's no accountability for people who are out here hurting folks.

[A]

And there has to be. Yes, there has to be. You know, when I think about trauma, because, you know, I think about my own traumas, and then as a mother of four, I immediately go to, but how do I not create, you know, how do I not allow these situations to happen for my own children? My own kids. But you can't.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You can't prevent rap.

[B]

So what we do as parents is we just can reduce the risk, but there's no guarantee. Right. So how do I reduce the risk? I may say, before I let my child play at a certain place, I'm going to check out the people. Right. And so then I may say, okay, I'm comfortable with these people. Yes, my child can go to their child's party. But people can trick you. Trying to do some checking is good. Setting some ground rules is good. Trying to have open lines of communication with your kid is really good. Because a lot of kids will hold things in, talking with kids proactively about things so that if something happens or makes them uncomfortable, they'll know, like, what to do or that they can talk to you. But, you know, we also have situations where we, quote, unquote, did all the things and bad things can still happen.

[A]

And bad things can still happen. How do you teach boundaries? Because I feel like so much of what people struggle with is their boundaries. And if you don't have boundaries, it's very difficult to demonstrate to your kids to have boundaries.

[B]

Right, yeah. It's a great point that a part of us teaching it to our kids, as with other lessons, is taught better by our actions than our words. Yeah.

[A]

You have to demonstrate the behavior they're.

[B]

Watching, what we do, what we accept or don't accept, where we draw the line. And then they will often copy those behaviors.

[A]

What can we do? What can we teach them? What can we tell them?

[B]

Yes. So, you know, we may say something like, around boundary setting. If I'm a people pleaser, then I'm saying yes to everything and everyone. And I'm always exhausted and I'm neglecting myself and I'm probably neglecting my kids because I'm doing everything for everyone else. Right. So then I wanna shift that. And I may say to my kids, you know, I notice I've been running a lot lately or forever. Right. And so I wanna start saying no to some outside things more so I can say yes to us, yes to my rest, yes to my peace, and yes to our time of having fun. And then I'll share with them those times of like, oh, yeah, someone asked me to do this thing on Saturday, but I told them no because we're gonna relax in the house and watch a movie.

[A]

That's just what we're doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what happens if you're a really ambitious go getter of a person? How do you set boundaries for yourself when you still have, like, very, very high expectations on yourself?

[B]

Right. Yeah. So you can be very goal oriented. But I love this phrase, life coach. Here in la, Shannon Yvette has a sentence. She says, I want to be called and not driven. And what she means by that is, like, if I'm traumatized or if I feel insecure, I'm driven. So then I'm constantly chasing significance and nothing is ever Enough. So that's not just me being ambitious or goal oriented. It is me seeking validation, chasing. Yeah. So with that, then I can never be still. I can never celebrate my wins. I can never just enjoy a quiet afternoon because I'm hungry for this enoughness versus, you know, if you have gifts, talents, and I feel called or purposeful about certain things I'm doing, I'm doing them, but in a settled way. Right. It's not just like all over the place or frantic or anxious, you know, when I'm living with purpose, I'm also setting some boundaries.

[A]

What do you say to women that feel inherently guilty anytime they take a bit of time for themselves because we all know that it's important, but then the minute you step over into that, you know, like me time mode, the guilt strikes.

[B]

Yeah. It's a great point of not only how do I care for myself, but to do that without the guilt. And you know, what I like to say, in part is I want to be a good model to my children. So if the way I'm running and frantic and overwhelmed, is that what I want my daughter to copy? Right. So I like to say, I said it in a TED talk. I did. Let your children catch you relaxing. Like, let them catch you laughing, having ease in your life because you want that for them. So if I don't ever do it and then I say the message, take care of yourself, but they know that means nothing.

[A]

I know it means nothing.

[B]

Yeah. So then in my going to the spa or laying down or watching a show, I am demonstrating that you can be successful and goal oriented and also have, like, ease in your life. And I believe it causes us to show up as better people. When I'm distressed and burned out and I'm being the martyr, Right. I'm like, I'm not taking any breaks. And, you know, I look down on these women who go and do these things, you know? Well, your kids and perhaps your partner would love for you to go relax somewhere. Yeah.

[A]

And take a break and chill it out.

[B]

You're stressing everybody out.

[A]

I mean, you're a very, very accomplished woman. I mean, your bio is kind of insane. So what is your take on the whole work, life, balance, conversation, situation, myth, whatever we want to call it.

[B]

So I will say a secret hack of mine, that won't work for everyone, but I have an academic job. So because it's an academic job, it's not a nine to five, Right. So I teach classes, I go to my faculty meetings. But, you know, if my kid was Having a recital at school in the middle of the day, I could actually go if I wasn't teaching a class at that time. So that creates, I would say, more spaciousness for those of us who like to do multiple things. So, you know, I may see clients in the morning and then go teach a class in the afternoon. But also, I will say the rhythm of my life or the outlets that I choose did have to change with parenting. So, for example, I love spoken word poetry. Right. So when I was younger in college and in my 20s, like all of the open places. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slam poetry, all the things. Yeah, I love it. But all the places would be like ten o' clock at night. Yeah. You know, on a Tuesday.

[A]

On a Tuesday, Right.

[B]

And so, yeah, if I'm in my early 20s at, yeah, midnight, still there. So when I became a parent and a professor, just like, I couldn't do that anymore. And then one day I was sitting with like, I miss myself, right. I'm a poet, I miss it. And so then I had to find what are other ways of integrating that into my life. So if I speak at churches, they gonna get a poem. In some of my lectures, they get a poem. You know, I've done poetry therapy groups.

[A]

But it's never about giving up that part of yourself.

[B]

Right. It's finding another way, finding another way for it to work.

[A]

So what do you think? When it comes down to doing the work, I often hear some of my friends say, it feels so indulgent to do my own thing, to take my poetry class, to do the thing that fills me up. What do you say? And oftentimes it can be really just difficult to fit it all in. So why is it so important for people that are in roles where they are carers or mothers or, you know, I just wonder why it becomes so difficult.

[B]

Yes. So I would say if you're partnered or planning to be partner, to partner with someone who actually wants to partner. Right. Because some of the research.

[A]

You better say that one again.

[B]

Right. If you want to partner.

[A]

You mean someone who comes to the table, someone who is like someone who's.

[B]

Who doesn't think that all of this is for you to do, that doesn't think it's a hardship to pick up their children or doesn't think it's a hardship to check homework or to cook a meal?

[A]

God forbid.

[B]

Right? Yes. Yes. So if I want to have time for those things, then I want to be intentional about partnering with people who think that's important, who think my wellness, my Joy, my gifts are important.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's all about who you choose.

[B]

Yes. And then I will say for those who are single parents to make use of your tribe, because sometimes what we have, and I've been guilty of this, is you'll have people who offer to help, and you're like, no, I'm good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. They're like, no, pick a day. I want to give you a break. No, no, no, I'm fine.

[A]

I got it. I got it.

[B]

Yeah, right? Yeah. So put down the superwoman cape and say, were you. Look, when you came over, were you serious?

[A]

I'll take it. Come on over. Yes, please. Yeah, right. Why is it so hard for us to accept help? Like, what is that?

[B]

It's that the idea we have about people who need help, we think they're weak or ineffective, so then we want to be the helper. Let me help these people who aren't as strong as me, because I'm strong, and so I can. Receiving help can be a strength. And also, you know, it's human. It's human to need help.

[A]

What do you say to women who just feel such tremendous guilt about ever focusing on themselves? How do you get women out of that mindset to realize that it is so very important?

[B]

I would say, who told you you're not worthy of care? Who made you feel like you were not worthy? Because you believe other people are deserving? You know, you believe other people are deserving, but something has happened to make you believe that you should be able to function without any care, and it's a lie.

[A]

It's just a lie. It's just a lie.

[B]

And there's no. As a. You know, there's no award for it.

[A]

You know, sadly, there is no.

[B]

There's penalty. So our health starts.

[A]

It's the opposite. You actually only get the underbelly of it.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And then it also doesn't teach a good message to your family about what it really means to be a part of a family. If family means they all get to relax and you get to do everything, then where's the family?

[A]

Have you had a moment in your life where you just couldn't cope anymore, where it was just too much for you?

[B]

So my example of that is during the pandemic.

[A]

Oh, the pandemic.

[B]

Right. Oh, my goodness.

[A]

What a time in our lives.

[B]

What a time. We were doing all the therapy online, and suddenly, because people were stressed, overwhelmed, and grieved, so many people were reaching out, seeking services. That was the first time in my career where I Had to put a sign on my website saying I wasn't taking any more clients. Because literally. And people know you're not going anywhere, so they're like, you know, see me at nine o'. Clock. Right. It's on zoom. So I had the clients, and then my kids are home because they're doing, you know, school was online because of the pandemic. Oh, I remember those days. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Painful.

[B]

It was just stressful. And then in the midst of all of that, we had all of the racially motivated murders happening. So it was like the most. And in terms of that guilt.

[A]

Wow, you are taking me back to a time. It's like you blank it out somehow, Right? That's my trauma response.

[B]

It was absolutely too, too much. And so I just say, like, something's gotta give. Oh, in terms of the guilt feeling. Because I know especially within the African American community, many people have, like, a stigma about going to therapy. So if people took the step of asking, I was feeling bad about saying no. Yes, Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then people who know my spiritual background would say things like, God said, you're my therapist.

[A]

And you're like, well, if God said.

[B]

I guess I'll be there. I guess I'll be. Eight o', clock, Darrell. Here's the link. But I discovered a win, win. I had all of these former students from Pepperdine who had like three clients. So I just started referring, referring, referring, and so they can get the care they are building up, you know, their practice and, you know, to release the lie that I have to carry it on.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How did you do during that time?

[B]

Oh, once I set that boundary, things were, like, so much better. Cause before I just was like, adding and adding and adding, and it just was unbearable. But yeah, and then one of the fun things that can happen with kids, you know, because they can't, you know, really go anywhere. We ended up ordering this trampoline. So my son was like, come jump with me. So it was great. I would see clients back to back.

[A]

And they go out there and jump.

[B]

They jump.

[A]

Get it out your system. Get out of your system.

[B]

That's one way.

[A]

I mean, it's really interesting when you think about going back to that time in the pandemic, because it's like a distant dream, nightmare memory at this point.

[B]

But we feel like this altered reality.

[A]

Do you feel like we've all processed the pandemic properly?

[B]

Not both. We have not grieved it. Like, even the number of deaths, we haven't really taken it in. It was Kind of this American cultural mantra of move forward strong and just keep it moving.

[A]

What do you think happens when collectively in society, when we all experience something so big like that and then it isn't processed?

[B]

Yeah. It shows up in our. Either hardening our hearts where, like, there's that lack of compassion or that fragility where, like, easily annoyed, easily attacking others.

[A]

Is that where we are in society right now?

[B]

That's exactly where we are. You know, and still in that survival mode. The divisiveness is like, only some are going to survive, and I'm looking out for mine. And in order for mine to survive, then yours can't.

[A]

And you think some of that is a direct. Like, it's directly correlated to what happened during COVID That makes such a lot.

[B]

Of sense, because I believe, you know, some of these things, of course, predated, but in terms of it being exacerbated and stirred up. Cause you also got to see how quick people were willing to discard others. Like, in the beginning, they were like, well, you're only at risk if you have immune compromised or if you're older. It's like, those are your elders.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But, like, you know, they've lived. So it's like this heartless.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. No. It's interesting culturally, the differences that happened.

[B]

During COVID Well, and the other thing we have to deal with in our culture in particular, is the widespread denial, the fact that there are people to this day who think those numbers are fake, who think it wasn't a big deal, who are mad that we had any restrictions. Right. So that level of high denial and.

[A]

That, you know, you have that polarization.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

That as humans, we can't just deline on how.

[B]

We can't even agree on the facts. How can we heal when we don't even all agree that there was trauma? And you talk to the people who did lose loved ones, multiple loved ones, and they're confronted with those who are like, don't believe it. Wow.

[A]

That's just. I guess that takes us back to any kind of trauma, because as you said at the start of these conversations, we all experience it completely differently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the same thing can happen, and we can all have.

[B]

Yeah. And that's just like, also during the pandemic, when we were at home, some people, like, were doing all these projects in their house and were, you know, doing their own homeschooling and arts and crafts projects. And some people were just, like, trying to get through the day feeling, you know, very overwhelmed, staying in the bed I was struck by, as a therapist, when they had only essential businesses could open and on the list were liquor stores. And when I mentioned this to people, they're like, they better not close.

[A]

They go themselves.

[B]

But, you know, you saw it go through a sequence. There was a period where everyone was baking. So all the baking stuff did a.

[A]

Lot of banana bread.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yes, we did.

[B]

So think about, like, yeah, how did we make it?

[A]

How did we make it?

[B]

Banana bread and margaritas.

[A]

Yes. What a combination. Maybe we can go back. It's really funny. I wanted to have the conversation with you about triggers, because this is something that really perplexes me so much, because people's triggers will be so, so different. How do you know when triggers are running your show? Like, what is the way to spot it and to figure out how you can cope and learn mechanisms to pause before you let something like that dictate how you're reacting?

[B]

Yes. So you can recognize it when the object is neutral to other people. So, for example, some of us can be triggered by a scent, Right. Because the scent is what we smell during a trauma. And then other people smell that, and, like, it's nothing to them. So then it's like.

[A]

So that should signal to you that that's a trigger of some description.

[B]

That's a trigger. For me, I smell that and I feel frightened, or I get tearful, or I'm holding myself tightly. We can also think about people's behavior where someone can do something annoying, but for some people, they're responding like, this was a huge attack. So then you can see, like, we were all in this place. But, yes, what they did was rude or what they did was not called for. But the level of your response, what do you think that came from? Have you had an encounter with, like, what does that remind you of? Who does that remind you of? And so then people may say, oh, that's just like my father used to do. Like, okay, there we go.

[A]

There we go. Yeah.

[B]

Because we're all trying to figure out, like, how you ended up responding at that heightened level.

[A]

What is the right way to handle these things, and when do they stop? Like, do you get to some magical age where it's like, poof, that stuff goes away, or do you have to do the work?

[B]

Right. So it depends on what it is. Sometimes we can kind of rewire, rework our nervous system with exposure. So let's say the incident happened in a particular neighborhood or in a house or at that school. And I haven't been able to go back, so Then I may work on my, like, breathing and muscle relaxation so that I can actually go there. Like, I had a client who was in a mass shooting at a concert. And so for her, and concerts were, like, a joy for her. And so a big goal for her in therapy was to get to a place where she could go back. Right. And so then she went and, like, there was no shooting and she had a good time, but she was prepared. Like, she went with two friends, and they were prepared for, like, if I need to leave, that you all are willing to leave with me. So she could work up to it and then create, like, some new memories, some new experiences. Yes.

[A]

What happens if the trigger is more like, it's a person, it's a family member? I feel like so many of us have. And, you know, you're not getting rid of those family members. You can't choose, you know, not to see them in the same way.

[B]

Right. So for family members, I would first distinguish. For people, are you triggered by their past behavior or is it something they're continuing to do? Right.

[A]

Can you separate the two?

[B]

Right, right. Right. Cause let's say they were mean when I was growing up. And some people will say, like, when they become grandparents, they become nicer. So then when you can see the.

[A]

Change, sometimes it's easier to digest and accept. But what if they don't change?

[B]

Right. If they don't change, then you do have to make some decisions around Boundari. Because some of us may feel like you have to give them all of your time, all the time. And that's not true. So there's a lot of options between cutting people off, which some people choose to do, or being around them nonstop. So I may say to someone, if you have a relative who is continuing to do harmful things, for me to say, do I have to spend every holiday with them? Do I have to be there every weekend? And so I get to. I can decrease my time in the space, or I can also think about activities I can do while I'm there. So say it's a family gathering. I might choose to sit at the kids table. Right. We are just gonna talk about roadblocks or whatever and let them do what they're gonna do. Or if people need someone to run an errand and get something from the store, I will pass that. I would love to. I'll get in the car, call my friend, like, yep.

[A]

And that's not avoidant?

[B]

No, not if. So this is if you're talking about someone who's not changing. Right, Right. If I have a relative that if I had the hard conversation with, it could shift. Then let's have the hard conversation.

[A]

But not everyone can change, right?

[B]

Yeah. Some people have no interest in changing. And so a part of that can be us thinking about whether or not we want to confront or have the conversation. And if people are thinking about confronting someone about an issue that happened or a trauma that happened, I help them to be prepared for the different possible responses. Best case scenario, they acknowledge it, they're sorry, they authentically feel bad about it. That's best case. People might say, I don't remember. I don't know what you're talking about. You're lying. I never did that. Right. So we have to. Or turn it on you. Well, that's because you. So we have to be prepared for that. And then I tell people, like, if you are going to be shattered if they don't apologize, then you're not ready for the confrontation. Right. But if you're in a place where no matter what they say, I need to speak my truth. And I don't care if they acknowledge it or not, even if I do care. But it's more important to me to say it, that what you did was harmful, I didn't deserve it, and it should never have happened. Then you do.

[A]

And you think having those types of conversation are necessary for healing.

[B]

Not for all people. I would say if you're gonna continue to be around them, then it could be right. If I say, you know, this person is harmful, not only to me, but maybe they might do those same things to my children. So I may say, I don't wanna go over there anymore. And so there may never be a conversation. I just don't go. Or if you say, I'm going to go, but with limits or boundaries. So I may say, if any of these things happen, then I'm going to take my kids and leave. We can communicate it that way. Other things, we may feel like this is their personality. And when I was younger, it hurt my feelings more. But I'm not in that space anymore. So I would say the people who give the backhanded compliments, but they're like, oh, you're still wearing your hair like that, or, oh, you're still single, or, oh, you know, you know. So like, if that. If that is still devastating to you.

[A]

Then you have to check yourself.

[B]

You can make some different decisions about do you want to be around them?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But, you know, if you're at a place where you're good with your life and you're like watch this. I'm gonna walk in there and she gonna say something about my hair.

[A]

You can probably go through it, you.

[B]

Know, she's gonna say something about my weight or whatever it is. So you know, for each person you gotta. That's that checking in with yourself. Yes.

[A]

Which you should be doing every day and every night and definitely before you go to your family's house.

[B]

Yes. There you definitely.

[A]

That's the morning to do it.

[B]

That is the time to check in.

[A]

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[A]

Do you believe that in order to live a happy life that healing is non negotiable?

[B]

Yes. The only way it would be negotiable are people who are in denial about their dysfunction. So there are people who are perfectly happy who are ruining things for everybody else. Right?

[A]

Whose job is it to tell them?

[B]

Well, it's no one's job unless you're going to keep interacting with them.

[A]

So you just have to.

[B]

Well, no, if you're going to be around them. If you're going to engage with them. But often people like that, it's hard for them to hear it or see it or receive it or believe it. But I will say there are people who have enough insight and awareness where if you give an example or you accept, explain it, they may have missed it in the moment. But sometimes there are people who when you give it to them are like, oh, okay, like I didn't know, like that was a thing. So let's say the controlling person or this is a big one. I see with people, people who honor truth telling but without grace. So for them the most important thing is, well, it was true.

[A]

I told you.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

It was true.

[B]

Like I'm not gonna lie, it was true. Right. But it was like. But your delivery and your tone was not one of care.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It was one where you were trying to sting them.

[A]

Oh yeah, you're never gonna get anything done like that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, I'm someone who really believes in this idea of massive kind of, I guess like accountability for your own life. Right. And I wonder what you think the difference is between blame and responsibility in healing for yourself.

[B]

Yes. So I think it is important, especially when you're bringing up forgiveness around self forgiveness. It's important that we not hold ourselves responsible for things we're not responsible for. So sometimes that's shame and self blame. So we may be saying like I'm trying to forgive myself for being molested. That's not for you to, you know, you didn't do anything wrong. But some people, that's how they're framing it. So if we're talking about self forgiveness, we wanna first make sure it's actually something you did and something that was harmful or that you wanna learn from and do something different. The other part about self forgiveness is sometimes we are looking at ourselves through our current lens. Right. So 15 year old me doesn't know what me knows now. Even 22, even 40 year old me doesn't know what I know now. Right. So yes, I can give myself some grace and compassion while also still saying, you know, that was a mistake and I don't want to do that again.

[A]

I wanted to talk to you about spiritual practice because you're a pastor obviously and you feel like the right person to talk about. But I feel like if you weren't. I wasn't raised particularly religious and I've always felt like a deeply spiritual person. But it can feel like the last thing for whatever reason, you know, it's like, where does this fit in my life? I don't have a church. I don't have an altar. It's like I pray. But to who, to what? I don't know. And so how important do you think spiritual practice is? To feel true alignment, to be a really balanced person? And especially when you. We all live how we do now. So busy, so consumed, so much going on all the time. It feels to me, and maybe it's just, I don't know, something to do with the age, that it's becoming more and more and more something that I wish I had a deeper connection to. Do you think that it's that important?

[B]

Yes, I think that it's vital. There are, of course, people who go through life without it, but then, you know, it's an aspect of them that hasn't been nourished. Right. That hasn't been fed. And, you know, it's never too late to say, like, I'm claiming it now, and I'm. And I'm shaping it into, you know, what it's gonna be for me. And so I talked about, like, start of the day. I like to encourage people to do, like, morning rituals. So people call it morning devotions. So the first thing is you have to wake up before you have to get up. Cause if you wake up and have to jump out of bed, you're already anxious, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you wake up before you have to get up, and then you play with different things to discover what's something that feels like, nourishing to your soul. So for some people, be, like, you said, prayer. So instead of, like, waiting for a crisis and saying, like, God, help me, right then I could start my morning.

[A]

Thank you, God.

[B]

That's right. With that. Thank you. You know, and that gratitude also helps to protect us against despair. Because when we're in a place of depression, we see everything that's going wrong, and we can overlook the things that are going right. So I may start with a gratitude prayer. I might start with meditation. I might start with moving and stretching, putting on some. Either instrumental music or some sacred music.

[A]

Do you do all of this?

[B]

I love this. I love it. And of course, each morning, like, the amount of time you do it or the sequence of what you do can change. Reading sacred texts, journaling, taking a walk in nature.

[A]

I feel like maybe I've misunderstood all the spiritual things that I do do.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, because I've always journaled and I always have gratitude, and I always stand in nature and I do meditate in the morning, but maybe I just haven't accepted that as.

[B]

So that's a spiritual undertaking. I think the part that you're missing is feeling like wanting to connect with your higher source or to connect with your creator. So those things may be. They're good because they're taking me into myself, inward. Right. And so then if I want this, like, outward connection, then it's being like, intentional about my prayers or reading devotionals. Those kinds of things. Yeah. And I will say the arts and I. I mentioned I love poetry and dancing, but the arts can also be a way of making that connection.

[A]

A really big way. Right, A really big way. And it's poetry.

[B]

Yes. And dancing.

[A]

How much of your. I mean, when you think about your life now and all that you do, how important is that stuff? Do you believe that everybody needs to nurture that other side of them, the more artistic side, the more spiritual side?

[B]

Yes. For me, it's been vital. So in terms of the spirituality, I believe that the work of therapy and providing therapy is faith work. Right. In order to do therapy, you have to believe that things can be better than they are right now. To act of faith. Right.

[A]

That's a really great framing for therapy.

[B]

So when people.

[A]

You have to believe that things could be better than they are now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's just it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It kind of is faith.

[B]

That is. It is faith. It's like I have never been like this calmer person or more confident person, but I just believe that I can become that.

[A]

My goodness me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, we needed like breath gaps just in this day to day. That's like a really quite a lot to take in.

[B]

It is, it is. But that's the beauty of.

[A]

Because that's not how people think about therapy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We think about therapy in a way to, like, get us through this thing that's bothering us or like to, you know, I don't know.

[B]

But it's not the growth.

[A]

It's not like a.

[B]

I want to bloom. Right. Not just I want to, like, work on my stuff.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like I want to be the fullness of myself. I want to expand, I want to grow.

[A]

If someone listening right now is still running from the things that are stifling from them, from the pain, what would you want them to know? Right now?

[B]

I would say the only way you will discover that you are bigger than your pain is to stop running. And the more you run, the bigger the shadow of the pain, because it's convincing you that it's bigger than you. Yeah. And so if the idea of standing still is intimidating or overwhelming to know you don't have to do it by yourself so you can get into therapy and then stand still. And that tide is going to come in, the stuff you've been running from. Because it's exhausting to spend a life running.

[A]

It's exhausting.

[B]

Right. That's why for some people, quiet is painful, stillness is painful. Cause then the things I'm running from catch up with me. Right. So then I have to have the TV on.

[A]

Just gotta keep it moving. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. I gotta have all.

[A]

We all know these people.

[B]

Yeah. Right. And so this is a great season of your life. To give yourself the capacity to slow down, to stop running. Oh, I love that. Yeah.

[A]

It's a good.

[B]

We're deserving of it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

But you have to believe that you're deserving of it. Right. You really, really do.

[B]

Or what also happens is sometimes we just get exhausted or it catches up with us. Right. Some people were running and running and running, and now their children are the age they were when the trauma started. Now, like, it hits.

[A]

It hits.

[B]

Right? It really, really hits. So you can slow down or it can catch you, but either way, you will be confronted with yourself.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, I have a strong belief that you can't really manifest true success without being whole yourself. And I had a brilliant conversation with Charlemagne, the God, and we spoke about some of this. And I just wondered what wholeness means to you and why it's essential for real success.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. So to be whole is to accept all of the different parts of yourself. That I accept them and that I nurture them and that I get to know them.

[A]

Even the bad parts?

[B]

Yes. Oh, especially the bad parts. Cause when I don't, when I'm not tuned in to those, then they are running my life. They might be in the driver's seat because I'm pretending like, la, la, la. I don't see it. Yeah.

[A]

But they're there.

[B]

They're there. And the people you're close to are having close encounters with those aspects of yourself. So even if you don't see it having a consequence to you, those you care about are paying a price for that. So when we think about success, we have to recognize, or I invite us to recognize, that if there are aspects of myself that I'm neglecting or that I'm trying not to see, that is taking energy. Right. Cause I'm trying to suppress those things so I'm not showing up to life with my full hands and heart and eyes open. Because you're too busy.

[A]

Pushing things down.

[B]

I'm so busy. Suppression is work. Denial is work. And so then when I can, like, take in the fullness of me now, I can, like, I can give all of that to life, right? To show up in truth. And when I accept all of these different aspects of myself, then there's no duplicate. No one can be another you. But if I'm, like, hiding it because I want to be acceptable, now I'm just kind of trudging along. It's not even me. So some of us have not introduced our full selves to the world, but some of us have not introduced our full selves to ourselves, right? So it's like, wouldn't this be a good year to meet you?

[A]

Wouldn't it?

[B]

Wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. People like you're. And that's why I especially say for people who think solitude is punishment. Oh, then you haven't met yourself.

[A]

No, I love being with me. There's nothing more that I try to search for. I'm always trying to get rid of one kid, one husband. I'm like, leave me alone and let. Let me be by myself. But people find that really hard. And I, you know, I think about, you know, jobs are fleeting, business is fleeting, success is fleeting, and all you're left with is you. Right? You're all that you are guaranteed to have. And so what are the best ways that we can focus on that and nurture ourselves? If you. Everything that you know and everything that you teach and everything that you learned. If we do a couple of things today, like, what should we do to make sure that we are looking after ourselves?

[B]

Yeah. The first thing I'll say is tell yourself the truth. Yeah. We mentioned other people lying to us, but sometimes we lie to ourselves.

[A]

Don't be one of them.

[B]

Right. And so if I want to be well, I have to first acknowledge the wounds. Right. I can't heal what I won't acknowledge. You can feel more than one thing at the same time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I. So you might be excited about this work initiative, but still be exhausted. Right. Or you might be grateful for this open door and still disappointed about some other closed doors. And so I tell myself the truth, and I tell myself the fullness of the truth, recognizing I'm a complicated person. So then I had to make room for all my layers. Right. And then a part of me living well is choosing well the people I bring into my inner circle.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So I want to be cordial, kind, polite to everyone, but who are the people I hold close? Because that can either edify me or drain me. Right? And I tell people sometimes the reason our healing has been delayed is we keep surrounding ourselves with people who cause us to feel bad about ourselves. Right? So then you never got to heal because the lie keeps repeating.

[A]

It keeps going.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know that. That holistic piece of, what am I doing for my body? What am I doing for my heart? What am I doing for my spirit? What am I doing for my financial health? So, you know, and to notice for yourself, what do you lean towards and what are the things you avoid? Because we have things we're just more comfortable with. So let me lean into the things I was not as familiar with.

[A]

That's excellent advice. Really excellent advice. Talking about excellent advice, one of the things that I love to do is get on my girlfriend group chat and ask them what they want to ask you. So this is the way of me not getting angry calls from English women. Like, no, no, no. They're like, we need our questions answered. So, okay. One of my girls said in the group chat, I'm successful, but I'm exhausted. I don't even understand what part of me is tired. That really rang true for me. What do you say to women that feel deep fatigue, but they don't know how to name it and they don't know what they can do about it?

[B]

Very good. So the first is the acknowledgement and to know that it's deeper than a nap. It's not just, I didn't get enough sleep. Right. My soul is tired. And so then what? We wanna look at that part there, right? My soul is tired.

[A]

That part there. It's like, it's not solved by me resting this weekend.

[B]

No, it's not. You know, you can get a full night's sleep and wake up tired. Are you right? Why you wait is getting up like.

[A]

Oh, God, it hurts like, yes, yes. We all know that feeling.

[B]

So what I would say is to take a look. Look at two things. One, what are you doing that's actually fulfilling? Because when I'm flowing. And what's fulfilling? Not just what I'm good at. What's fulfilling? What is fulfilling?

[A]

What is filling you up?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What's giving you joy? What's energizing you?

[B]

Right? There you go.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When I do that, it energizes me. Right. It strengthens me. It makes me look forward to, like, I can't wait for tomorrow. Right. Versus, like, ooh, I gotta do it again. Yeah, Right. So let me choose things that are fulfilling. And then for me to Say what Do I need to start saying no to that I've been saying yes to out of obligation and habit? That's what's exhausting you. The yeses that you. That. And maybe for a season it was okay, but you're tired of it, you don't want to do it anymore. Yep. So I go back to the beginning.

[A]

Of this podcast because we taught you how to say no. You gotta say the nos.

[B]

Say no.

[A]

You gotta say no.

[B]

And your real ones will be okay with the fact that you changed your mind?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The real ones.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And everybody else, like, maybe they're not the ones.

[B]

No. The other ones are just looking for what you can do for them.

[A]

Yes. Not what you need. Right.

[B]

They're gonna be disappointed, and that's okay.

[A]

And it's so interesting because you. Your true friends, your real girlfriends, always get it.

[B]

Always. They're so happy. They're like, oh, you're just gonna stay in.

[A]

Good. Yeah, me too. Thank you.

[B]

They're like, I should do that.

[A]

You just gave me the night back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that. What would you say to a woman who's doing all the things, Working, mothering, showing up, but still feels like she's failing silently?

[B]

Yeah. So the one person that you're failing is yourself. And so then you want to say, what is your unacknowledged dream? You've put a dream on the back burner. It's not a professional dream, or it's not the professional dream you've been pursuing, and you want to get it back. You want to get you back. So that's one, the neglected dream, the forgotten dream. The other one is unrealistic dream expectations. Right. So you may be a great mother, but your idea of a great mother is just, you know, somewhere out of.

[A]

A magazine, somewhere off of Instagram.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So get more realistic expectations.

[A]

And both of those things come down to what you said at the beginning. Just telling the truth.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Being truthful with yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, I've got another question. So many of us say we want peace, but we stay in chaos because it's familiar. How do you start choosing peace when peace feels foreign?

[B]

That is very good. And what I say to that is, this is a trauma response. And what is the story I have told myself about chaos? Sometimes the story is, where there's chaos, I'm needed. If things were calm, then maybe nobody needs me, and then why would they choose me? Or why would they appreciate me? Sometimes the story is, if people care, then there'll be a lot of drama. And if they don't care, then they're just calm. Then we are telling ourselves a false story. Sometimes the story is that piece is boring. And it's not boring. Right. So what is the story about? Chaos. And can I dare to write a new story?

[A]

What a fantastic answer. What lucky friends I have.

[B]

I love these friends.

[A]

They're gonna love me, let me tell you. They're just like. Well, we've been queuing up on that website. Okay. I only have rapid fire left for you, but I want to ask you a few questions that are my favorite questions to ask. What is the first thing you do when you wake up?

[B]

Say thank you to both God and to my mom, who passed away last year.

[A]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. And you say thank you to your mom?

[B]

Yes. Like this moment. It's her. She just. She paved a way in major, major ways. So I'm in perpetual gratitude.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I can't think of anything that a mother would want to hear more from her daughter than that. That you thank her every day.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

That's incredible. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed at night?

[B]

Ah, I said gratitude again. Being in stillness. Well, first I'll say I say prayers with my kids. I enjoy them. They're big personalities. Hello. But then. Yeah, laying in an appreciation for the day, for what happened today.

[A]

Amazing. What are you currently aspiring for in your professional life?

[B]

Yes, my podcast is audio, and maybe I'm gonna be like you and add video, like. Yes. Come on now with these outfits. What are you far. Come on.

[A]

What are you getting dressed for in the morning?

[B]

I can tell you right now, like, I record it literally in my bedroom.

[A]

On the phone, so. Okay, fine.

[B]

That big step, that's peaceful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one day we're gonna get the videos going.

[A]

You do have such a very lovely voice, though, to tune into. So maybe. I mean, I can understand the reason for doing both.

[B]

Audio is good.

[A]

Okay, so maybe a little bit of video. We have it to look forward to. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life?

[B]

This is a mom thing, so I don't know. Yeah, my daughter's doing study abroad in the fall in Ghana, West Africa.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

I'm gonna fly over there with her to set up and let her soar.

[A]

How old is she?

[B]

Yes. 19. She's a theater major, and she's gonna take, like, African women playwrights and the African documentary and.

[A]

Oh, just dying of pride.

[B]

I'm so excited.

[A]

I mean, that's amazing. What a great trip to do together.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's a real like mom D. But.

[B]

I'll, you know, set up.

[A]

Check. It's okay. Yeah, check. She's doing all right. What is a book that's changed your life, daughter?

[B]

Drink this water by Jaya John?

[A]

I have not read it.

[B]

And I will. You will love it.

[A]

I will immediately buy it. What is something you valued when you were starting out that you no longer do?

[B]

What other people think. I'm free. I'm free. And I call it my jubilees. I'm 51 now. Once I got 50, I'm like, yeah, Jubilee, let's just flow and, Yep, let it go. And what's. What is meant to align will align and what is meant to be released will be released. And it's a. It's a good life to be free.

[A]

Free in your jubilee.

[B]

Yes. I love that.

[A]

What's something that you value now that you didn't back in the day?

[B]

Mutual relationships. You know, I was. I was the strong one and now I have this circle. You talk about your friends. I have this circle of friends where like any of them could. You could interview and you would love them. Like, they're brilliant, they're amazing. And so it's not one sided. It's a beautiful flow and an ease. We pour and we receive. And I love it.

[A]

And it's so needed. Yeah, so needed. The best. Lucky you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much. I loved our conversation.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derrick Brown and me, our executive producer. Producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Keyser, Leah Rees Dennis, Asha Salouja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Britney Smith, Sydney Ford. My teams at Jonesworks and wne. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G R E D E that's aspire a s p I r a with Emma greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, Emmagreed Mercedes.