How to Build Something Meaningful From Your Worst Chapter (Sarah Jakes Roberts)

Summary

Aspire with Emma Grede: "How to Build Something Meaningful From Your Worst Chapter"

Guest: Sarah Jakes Roberts
Date: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this compelling conversation, Emma Grede sits down with Sarah Jakes Roberts—bestselling author, global faith leader, and entrepreneur—to explore how our lowest moments can become the building blocks of a meaningful, successful life. Sarah shares her deeply personal journey from teenage motherhood and public scrutiny to leading a megachurch and building a multi-faceted business empire. The dialogue covers radical self-responsibility, reframing shame, building authentic relationships, business strategy, motherhood, and evolving leadership—offering both practical advice and inspiration for listeners facing their own “worst chapters.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Embracing and Reframing Your "Worst Chapter"

• Taking Radical Responsibility
  • Emma opens by noting her own theme around “radical responsibility” and how Sarah embodies it through her life and career, rising from teen motherhood and setbacks (05:12).
• Seeing Beyond the Struggle
  • Sarah admits she didn’t know there was “something bigger on the other side,” but believed she could be “bigger than the moment” she was in:

    “I am not one of those people who looked at their lives and, like, one day I'm going to speak to millions of people ... I just thought one thing to myself and it was, I can do better than this.” (06:46)

• Allowing Hard Moments to Shape but Not Define
  • Instead of resisting the defining power of low points, Sarah chose to examine how they shaped her. She reflects:

    "I had to let them define my present first ... I became curious about whether or not there was any way I could love myself." (08:35)

2. The Power of Vulnerability, Anger, and Authenticity

• Finding Power in Anger
  • Both discuss how anger—often discouraged in women—can be a potent motivator if channeled:

    “I think I get angry now at systems of oppression ... I get angry at ... And that fuels you? ... It does. It makes me want to dismantle them.” (12:56)

• Authentic Storytelling and Connection
  • Sarah began blogging to process her own anger and pain, which unexpectedly resonated with millions:

    “Being able to put into words what other people are feeling is a gift.” (14:44)

  • She emphasizes that connection breaks isolation:

    "Shame is isol[ating]. Doubt is isolating. Worry is isolating ... I found out when I started blogging is that I wasn’t by myself." (18:19)

3. Imposter Syndrome, Shame, and Self-Doubt

• Living with Evidence of the Past
  • Discussing teen motherhood, Sarah reveals how visible reminders (“evidence on your hip”) kept judgment and shame ever-present (18:19).
• Releasing the Need for Perfection
  • On self-doubt and imposter syndrome:

    “There are parts of me that have no business standing where I am ... But I'm the one here. ... I'm going to step into the moment with everything I have or don't have.” (22:56)

4. Building a Mission-Driven Business

• Business as an Organic Extension of Impact
  • Sarah describes her journey from blogging to books, speaking, and eventually founding Woman Evolve, stressing that her business grew from her message, not the other way around (26:29).
• Defining Business and Leadership Boundaries
  • She shares her evolution from taking every opportunity to setting clear boundaries:

    “Now I feel more agency, more of a sense of ownership ... The things that I don't know, I don't mind not knowing, because it doesn't change who I am in the equation.” (32:14)

• Leadership Through Team-Building and Vision
  • Emma compliments Sarah as an “excellent CEO,” to which Sarah replies:

    “I want to create space for the best, to be the best.” (31:41)

5. Money, Faith, and Ethical Wealth

• Inherited Attitudes and Navigating Taboo
  • Sarah candidly discusses learning about money through observation, not discussion:

    “My parents were so busy surviving ... they didn’t have time to talk about it.” (33:42)

• Balancing Revenue With Responsibility
  • She explains being careful not to “look like I’m taking it from people” and keeping her life sustainable outside of donations (35:10).

6. Motherhood, Blended Families, & Parenting Philosophy

• The Myth of the "Bad Mom"
  • Sarah reflects on how motherhood, especially as a teen, filled her with guilt but her son later revealed positive memories:

    “He was still getting a part of me that felt like the best part of me, even though I didn’t know I was doing my best ... These children ... they're grading us on a curve." (39:23)

• Changing the Narrative Across Generations
  • She contrasts the way she was raised (“my parents didn't care about your feelings”) with her intentional style of honoring her children’s emotions—without abdicating her own (43:18).
• Motherhood Without Martyrdom
  • Both agree on the necessity of setting boundaries and allowing children to see their mother’s full, fallible self:

    “If you don’t reinforce the idea that you are something other than a mother, you set your entire family up to see you as nothing other than a mother.” (45:57)

7. Accepting Help and Building Community

• Delegation as Freedom, Not Failure
  • Sarah openly admits to outsourcing chores like cooking and laundry, viewing it as wise use of resources and modeling shared responsibility for her children (49:41).
• Rejecting Martyrdom Culture
  • “It can be edifying for us that everyone needs us ... But we need to decenter ourselves ... for us to be affirmed outside of what we do for other people.” (47:46)

8. Marriage, Partnership, and Trusting Again

• Learning From Past Hurts
  • Sarah humorously addresses her journey from skepticism to true partnership with her husband, admitting “I'm so submissive ... after he has wrestled with me ...” (52:21)
• Healing From Self-Doubt
  • Trusting another, she realizes, is often about trusting herself again after prior mistakes (55:47).

9. Authentic Legacy

• Being Herself, Not a Shadow
  • Despite her famous father, Sarah asserts:

    “I just am me, and I bring me to it, and whatever happens from that place happens from that place.” (60:45)

• Commitment to Local, Lasting Impact
  • She aspires to expand Woman Evolve into local programs addressing tangible obstacles, including adapting to technological shifts like AI (63:14).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On moving forward from failure:

  “When you have hit rock bottom ... Or there is this belief you can tap into that says, if this is truly as low as it can get ... then me sharing my voice on a platform, then me trying to start a business, if it doesn't work, it won't kill me because that was literally designed to kill me.”
  —Sarah Jakes Roberts (18:19)

• On leadership:

  “One of the greatest things that I’ve learned as a leader is to not apologize for what I don't know ... If you ask, you only don't know once.”
  —Sarah Jakes Roberts, quoting her father (32:14)

• On motherhood and children “grading on a curve”:

  “They pick up on the effort. They pick up on the trial. And I think that can give us consolation as we mother and navigate uncertainty.”
  —Sarah Jakes Roberts (40:26)

• On legacy and individuality:

  “I don’t think about how to make it mine. I just am me, and I bring me to it ... I want to be able to lay down at night and say that I was true to myself.”
  —Sarah Jakes Roberts (60:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Sarah’s Origin Story & “I can do better than this” – 06:46
• How Blogging Became Her Breakthrough – 10:37, 14:44
• Anger as a Useful Tool – 12:28–13:39
• Imposter Syndrome & Living with Shame – 17:33–22:56
• Building and Monetizing Her Platform – 25:54–31:06
• Money, Faith, and Ethics – 33:29–35:10
• Motherhood—Guilt, Grace, Curve Grading – 38:59–42:42
• Parenting Across Generations – 43:11–45:35
• Delegating & Accepting Help – 49:41–51:57
• Partnership & Trusting Again – 52:21–56:15
• On Legacy – 60:10–61:32
• Vision for Woman Evolve & the Future – 63:09–64:08
• Rapid Fire: Guilty Pleasures, Books, and Sunday Routines – 64:14–68:32

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Tone and Takeaways

This episode is candid, vulnerable, and at times, joyfully irreverent—full of laughter, real-talk (“I was ready to give jail time”), and pointed truths about perseverance, leadership, and womanhood. Sarah Jakes Roberts shines as a storyteller and mentor, demystifying success and offering practical hope: your biggest failures don’t disqualify you—they can be the raw material for your greatest impact.

Core Message:
Whatever your “worst chapter,” it can be the foundation for the most meaningful and successful version of your life—if you’re willing to own your story, set boundaries, embrace your imperfections, and invite others on the journey.

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Transcript

[Emma Grede]

I am so excited to share my debut book with you all, Start With Yourself which is available now. You might have seen the headlines, you might have seen the social, but this book is exactly what I intended. A conversation that will make you think and it's a blueprint for anyone who wants success without the toxic positivity. Start With Yourself is about self leadership because wherever I go, women ask me how I got to where I am. But what you really want to know is is how you can get there. So I'm doing what I do best, sharing and never gatekeeping what's works for me in the hope that you can borrow from a philosophy that has served me so well. The truth is I'm not an expert. I've just lived it. I've made the mistakes, I've had the failures and I've learned what actually works. It takes a lot. It takes the most. And this book is for anyone who's tired of feeling like a passenger in their own life. It's about taking responsibility for your thinking, managing your emotions and getting clear on your ideas and then knowing your your next step. It's about picking yourself up after failure, being accountable, but also forgiving yourself, pushing for wins and never ever apologizing for your ambition. It's also about challenging the rules that you've been told there is no perfect time. Balance isn't the goal, alignment is, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting more. I'm precisely sure that the reason I've been so successful is so I can share it with you. Start With Yourself. My debut book is available now. Visit emmagree.com to purchase the book. Also available on Amazon, your favorite audio platforms and all good bookshops. So today's episode is for anyone who's ever hit rock bottom and wondered if there was actually something on the other side of that. Whether it's a mistake that you can't get past or you're in the middle of your wor chapter. It's a reframing of what to do with what's happened to you and how to use it to your advantage as you move forward. Sarah Jakes Roberts is a mother of six. She's a leader within a mega church, a best selling author, and the force behind a truly global brand. She's also living proof of what success looks like when you embrace what life serves up for you and you move forward anyway. A wave of skincare products featuring the ingredient Blue Tansy has taken over the clean beauty space and for good reason. Known for its naturally vibrant blue hue, Blue Tansy helps minimize inflation, calm, irritation and support stressed, sensitive skin. Primally Pure harnesses the power of this calming botanical across its soothing collection. Formulated with real biocompatible ingredients that work in harmony with the body, not against it when skin or the nervous system feels overwhelmed, this collection is designed to help simplify and restore balance. Blue Tansy is a potent antioxidant that helps visibly reduce redness, discoloration and dryness, making it especially beneficial for skin prone to irritation or inflammation. The ingredient's soothing properties make it a standout for sensitive skin that reacts quickly. The collection spans both face and body, creating a cohesive, head to toe calming ritual. It includes Primally Pure's cult favorite Blue Tansy Deodor, along with the soothing Serum Body Oil and more, each designed to support calm, resilient skin. For those seeking a soothing, therapeutic complement to a richer winter skincare routine, Primally Pure's Blue Tansy products offer a gentle yet effective solution rooted in clean, intentional formulation. Use Code aspire to get 15% off your primary pure purchase. That's www.p r I m A L L Y p u r e.com and use code ASPIRE at checkout for 15% off your order.

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[Emma Grede]

Sarah I am so happy to have you here today.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I'm so excited. Thank you for having me.

[Emma Grede]

Now, welcome to Aspire. I tell you, I have been thinking about this conversation since you and I had the opportunity to sit down and you gave me the most beautiful introduction to my own book press. You were the first person to interview me about my own book. And it was so satisfying to know a. That somebody had really read it. Cause you had really read it. You had really read it, girl. But also the amazing feedback that you gave me. And one of the key things that I talk about in that book is that in order for you to have meaningful success, you have to take radical responsibility for your life. And when I think about you and what your life and your career has really embodied, it's exactly that, taking responsibility for yourself. You have had such an amazing. It's like a movie. When I read your life, you know, it's like you became a mother as a teenager. You then went out and started, you know, discovering the world and doing everything that you did. You dropped out of college, you were waitressing as a teenager. And it feels to me like there was this kind of moment, this opportunity that you had to truly start with yourself and you began writing about your pain. You kind of built this platform. And now I look at you, you're running a global empire, you're doing so much, and you're also leading a megachurch. And I guess my question to you from the beginning has to be like, I wonder if, as you were going through all of that stuff, all of that tumultuous time, if you could see and if you understood that there was something bigger on the other side.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I don't know if I thought that there was something bigger on the other side. As much as I felt like I could be bigger than the moment I was standing in. I am not one of those people who looked at their lives and, like, one day I'm going to speak to millions of people, I'm going to write books. I've always just kind of taken whatever the next available step was in front of me. And I was walking out of the CPS office, which is Child Protective Services, which is a long story that I will save for another time. But I just thought one thing to myself and it was, I can do better than this. I can do better than this. And that has been my mentality that I'm always kind of chasing, what does better look like from here?

[Emma Grede]

So what did you think you would do as a kid? You must have had, like, hopes and dreams and, you know, while I was dreaming of being a fashion designer, what

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

was it for you not to be a pastor?

[Emma Grede]

That was nowhere, literally, did you imagine

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

you were following your father's footsteps? I looked at that, I was like, er, we're going the opposite direction. I think at one point I wanted to be a doctor. After I Had my son. I just wanted stability. And by the time I dropped out of school, I thought at first I was going to go and be an accountant, but then there was this one math class I couldn't pass, and I was like, well, then I just need stability. I have a child to take care of. And I thought if I could become an administrative assistant, I could support someone else's work and I could have stability for my son, maybe room for some growth. And that's literally all I wanted to be.

[Emma Grede]

So you never thought I'm going to be, you know, leading 30,000 people every weekend?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Absolutely not. No, no. And now that I still have to, like, invite my previous versions of myself into this moment to realize, like, this is the moment that I'm living in. Oprah said once that she's living God's dream for her life. And I feel like that's very much so. My reality is that I'm living out a dream that I could have never had for myself.

[Emma Grede]

What was the decision for you that you weren't gonna let, like, hard moments in your life define your future?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I had to let them define my present first. I think that sounds easy. Like, I'm not going to let these hard moments define me for the rest of my life. And sometimes that's an instant click for people. But then there are people like me who live in the result of letting those hard decisions define them, where they come to a place where they're like, I don't like the results. I did not like who I was when I looked in the mirror. I just didn't. I just didn't like her. It started, of course, when I was a pregnant teenager and I was so ashamed of myself. I'd look in the mirror and I would think the worst thoughts about myself. And then as my choices continued to reflect that poor self belief, I just didn't like who I was. And I became curious about whether or not there was any way that I could love myself. And I started, like, just taking little pieces of myself that I like. Well, I like this about me, and I like that about me. And that was the journey of me falling in love with myself. And from that place, I began to fall in love with the world around me and other people and experiences and opportunities and things began to change.

[Emma Grede]

How did you decide to start speaking and thinking about yourself and your own identity differently now?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

This is where me growing up in a faith household, I think, really began to take form for me is because they kept talking about faith and God and, you know, he loves you and all this stuff, and I just didn't believe it. I just. It couldn't be possible. How could God love me and I don't love myself? And the people who I trusted have turned their back on me, and friends don't believe in me anymore. And so I think by faith began to say, like, if God is real, if this is possible, I want to imagine what kind of life I. I could have if I really believed these things. And it was me living out that life that I began to see a shift and a change take place within me. But I think a lot of people were disappointed in me when I got pregnant. I think they were like, you could maybe possibly recover if you don't make any more poor choices. But then I kept making poor choices. So then I was like, we might as well have fun while we're making poor choices. And so I had to make some subtle changes before I saw a sudden shift.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, what's so interesting to me is while all of this is going on, it's against the background of you being a mother, right? And then you get married at 19 years of age, and you start to put out all of what's happening to you. You start blogging, basically, because it was blogging back then, right? You weren't an influencer, you were blogging. And I wonder what made you actually decide to put what was happening in your life and all of that mess, like, out on the Internet.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It was just stuck inside of me. Like, I started liking the fact that I was angry. I think it's because I wasn't feeling anything at all. That to even feel anger made me feel alive. It made me feel like a person. Unless you've been there, it's really hard to understand for someone. But, yeah, just. It made me feel alive to feel angry. And I felt like, okay, this probably isn't healthy. And I was in my first marriage, and we were going through a terrible situation, which there was an alleged pregnancy by someone else. And I started. I started really having some unhealthy thoughts. I knew Emma, I knew I was headed to prison. Because, listen, like, I preach now, and I get dressed up, and I may not give what I was ready to give back then, but I was ready to give jail time. I just was. And I was like, okay, I gotta make.

[Emma Grede]

Because you were that angry.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I was so upset, but I had to realize, like, I was upset with him, but more than anyone, I was upset with myself. And I feel like what I wanted was someone to channel that anger towards. And he gave Me a reason to channel that anger towards him and her or anyone. And I got to where I had to let it out. So I was writing it was really just for me because I wanted to get it out of me. Then I realized I would, like close the blog with like, you know, if I were someone's friend, what would I say to someone in this situation? And it. What was a conversation between me and maybe the highest version of myself became this conversation that I started having with thousands and then millions of women who were in similar situations.

[Emma Grede]

I want to just double down on the anger piece for a second because it's an emotion that throughout my life I've always been very attuned to my anger, shall we say. There was a time when I think I was really led by that emotion. And as I've got older, I've been able to train myself and understand it a lot more and channel it. I wonder if there is any part of the anger that serves you now. Like, do you find any channel or any use for it in your work and your life now?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

That's a great question. I think so. I think I get angry now at systems of oppression. I get angry at.

[Emma Grede]

And that fuels you?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It does. It makes me want to dismantle them. But at the time I couldn't channel it that way. But I think also just women in general are not allowed to be angry. And because we were not allowed to be angry, I thought I had to suppress it, suppress it, suppress it. And so there would be these moments of explosion that seemed like it was just about that one thing in front of me, but it wasn't. It was about all of the other things that I had to stuff down.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, I really can resonate with that. I actually think that for a lot of women, the reframing of anger is a very, very useful tool because it can be one of those emotions that really allows you to get stuff done.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

People talk about being people pleasers all the time. And I'm thinking, are we people pleasers or are we manipulating people into believing that it's easy to love us and that we won't cause any issues and we're just so easy to get along with when in reality there are things that offend us, there are things that upset us. But because I feel like I'm not allowed to tell you because I want to be nice and I want to be sweet, I often end up building relationships that don't have the roots to really withstand what it means to be in relationship with my authenticity.

[Emma Grede]

Honestly, when I Think about my book and how much time I spent around this idea of people pleasing and anger and how actually one leads to the other. Because when you're constantly running your agenda on what you think is gonna please other people, you get way off track and way off course. Sarah, what was so unbelievable is that your blog went from zero to a million viewers in less than three months.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Can you take me back to that moment? Because when I look at you and look at the platform that you had now, that must have been, like, an early signal that you were like, one second, I have something. I have something. Not my family, not where I come from. This is, like, this is me. I'm putting my information out there, and it's really resonating.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It was crazy. Especially, like, my father has a famous last name, but I wasn't writing under my maiden name. I was still married at the time. And so I think it really spoke to the fact that I was telling this story that other women could resonate with. And as much as it was assigned to me that I had something, because, listen, I grew up in church where, like, if you can't sing, you can't dance, you can't pray, then, like, you don't have any talents. And so I didn't know that writing could be a gift, Right? But I realized that being able to put into words what other people are feeling is a gift. And so I thought, okay, so this is a blog, and people are in search of words and meaning. That felt nice, but also scary. I'm naturally introverted, and so this idea of, like, wait a minute, guys, this is my diary. And now you guys are all watching. I think I felt, like, a sense of responsibility and a sense of maybe urgency to get to a place of healing and not just unpacking and unloading without leading people somewhere.

[Emma Grede]

You know, when I look at the sort of broadness of your work, from what you do in the church to what you do with your women's conference to these unbelievably successful books that you've had. And so I wonder what you're hearing from women now. Like, what has changed from when you first started to where you are now? Do you hear the same things?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Sometimes I hear echoes of the same thing. I feel like the universal thread between all of those different types of women is that some of us, in some way, are trying to figure out what happened to us and how it's showing up in our present. And that's for the woman in the. And that's for the little girl in A detention center. What happened to me and how is it showing up in the choices that I make now? And so I still see that thread in many of the things that I do. But what I feel exists now, that didn't exist when I first started is that I do believe that women feel more empowered to lay hold of possibilities that perhaps didn't exist a few years ago. I think with the rise of social media and technology that possibilities are more at our fingertips than before. And I believe that seeing other women because of social media, who maybe have similar backgrounds and backdrops have given people who are in limiting circumstances or who are wondering what their pathways can look like. It's given them hope and possibility that there's a path for girls like me and women like me to have children and have the business or to go from a place of being in incarceration to starting a business. Like, I feel like the possibilities are more exposed, and I believe that that's given women a lot of hope.

[Emma Grede]

I wonder if there's something. You know, you and I spoke about this a little bit when we first met. And because my book is kind of largely structured around this idea of thoughts that exist, these kind of old thoughts that you keep with you and there being this other idea of what is possible and how you should think now. Do you think that you were plagued by old thoughts and things that had happened to you when you were younger and that they show up in your life and your business now?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Oof.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

Mm.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes. Girl. Wait, we going to therapy? We are.

[Emma Grede]

Let's do it.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Emma, please, please. Can we take a minute?

[Emma Grede]

It's only question five, babe.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

For sure. Okay, so I think to properly frame this though I am 37 now, to go back to that age at 13 years old, man, I have a 16 year old daughter. I realize how identity shifting that is, having a baby now, there's all kinds of trauma. I deal with a lot of women who have experienced molestation, they've been abused, they've been raped. So a lot of women carrying different types of wounds from early childhood or adolescence. But a baby, you've got evidence on your hip. Oh. And when you've got evidence.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, you just made me go so cold.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

When you've got evidence on your hip, whether you're at the grocery store or you're at church, people are looking at you, trying to do the math. And so I lived with the belief that you are a bad girl. People would look at you and there's pity and there's shame and you begin to believe there's something wrong with me. And you know people, you know how babies come, right? So you have sex, you get pregnant. Like the math is there. And so now I'm like, you're also stupid because how did you let this happen? And that's all I ate for years. As it relates to identity and self esteem. You're dumb, you're stupid, you're nasty. Like, over and over again, over and over again. So how does that show up in my present now? Though I've done the work and the healing and the praying and the meditating, I think there are still moments where I wonder, like, are you really good enough for this moment? I would rather not do it at all than to risk disappointing people. But when I overcome those feelings of self doubt and of just not believing in myself, there's this other flip side of it where it's like you kind of already taken some of the biggest L's you could take. So, like, if a podcast flops, it's not gonna break you. You know what I mean? Like, when you have hit rock bottom, there is this temptation to stay there so that you never have to experience the collision again. Or there is this belief that you can tap into that says, if this is truly as low as it can get, whether it's a teen pregnancy, it's grief, it's addiction, if this is the lowest it can get, then me sharing my voice on a platform, then me trying to start a business, if it doesn't work, it won't kill me because that was literally designed to kill me. There are very few people who can say they've gone through things that were literally designed to kill them. And if you manage to survive those things, I believe you owe it to your survival to dare to live again. And that living again can be big and bold, where you're doing something that has a huge platform. Or it could be the smallest thing of waking up this morning, taking a shower, going outside and seeing what's happening in the world. But you owe it to yourself to try to live again. What I seek to do is to help women understand. Like, I'm just bait. Like, maybe you've heard one of my messages, read one of my books, and you're here because you know who I am. But the most important person in this room is the person who's sitting beside you. And we are intentional about creating connection. Because shame is isol. Doubt is isolating. Worry is isolating. What I found out when I started blogging is that I wasn't by myself. There was this tunnel that I was living in that made me believe that I was the only one who had ever felt discarded, the only one who had ever felt damaged and that there was something wrong with me. Man, I owe as much to woman evolve as the women who I've been able to serve say that they owe to me because they helped me to see that I wasn't in it on my own. On.

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[Emma Grede]

Does imposter syndrome or any of the kind of underbelly of that shame, does that ever show up for you anywhere? Because when you're standing on a stage in front of thousands of people on a Sunday morning, I guess there has to be like, you know, every now and again, like some kind of self doubt that creeps up.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I feel no need to try and talk myself out of being an imposter. There are parts of me that have no business standing where I am. I know where I've come from. I know what I've gone through. I know that there are people who are more eloquent, people who are more studied, people who on paper would be a better fit for the things that I do. But I'm the one here. And because I'm the one here, I'm going to step into the moment with everything I have or don't have. God makes up the difference for me. And it's an offering. My life is an offering. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I am already so much further than I ever thought that I would be. That like me, maybe I shouldn't be up here. But since I'm the one who's got the mic right now, I'm gonna serve the moment well until whoever's supposed to be here finally makes it here on time. Until then, this is gonna be the moment that I stand up to whatever's in front of me.

[Emma Grede]

So talk to me. If you are somebody sitting at home right now that is in the worst moment of their life, they're in the middle of the worst chapter. Knowing what you know and doing what you've done, what do you say to them right now, to someone who thinks that where they're at is going to define them for forever?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I think that if you're in a season right now where you feel like this moment is going to define me forever, I think that you should figure out how it is defining you now, that you should study that definition and then see where you want to make edits and amendments. I think sometimes the resistance of letting it define us has more stress than just embracing that. This is now a part of my identity. This is a part of who I am now. I spent so long trying to not be a teen mom with a baby on my hip, you know, trying to not be the girl who went through the divorce while going through the divorce, because I felt like I don't want to be who other people think I am because of what has happened to me. But this is a part of my truth, and so I have to embrace it, and I have to let it change me. And then I have to figure out who do I want to become based off of what I have left. And part of my belief is that there are things that can be made out of leftovers. Listen, my parents grew up on government cheese, okay? I was raised. My parents were on welfare. We know a thing or two about taking what looks like leftovers and making incredible meals. It's in the culture of how I've grown up. I think the same thing applies to our life experiences. We may have nothing but broken pieces left. And we can look at that and think to ourselves, there's nothing that can be made out of these broken pieces. Or we can dare to believe that there is a mosaic that maybe has never been seen before, maybe that we could not create in our own imagination, but that they really can all work together to produce something that looks like good and looks like God. These broken pieces have meaning. It's just a matter of who's going to find them most valuable. And it may not be the rooms full of 40,000 people. It may be that room with that One person. And so those broken pieces, they do have value. And I think I've been fortunate. You know, my influence has allowed me to let those broken pieces shine before millions and shine before one. And yet there's been meaning in each of those scenarios.

[Emma Grede]

So let's talk a little bit about the business, because you for sure are, are a businesswoman. You are doing, you know, you're selling out arenas, you're selling books. You have a platform, you have so many avenues to your business and so many tentacles to what it is that you're building. Talk to me about how this ecosystem comes together, because I think so many people that are listening right now will think, you know, how do I monetize and develop my skill? So I almost want you to. To frame up what it is that you do for anyone who doesn't know. And then let's talk about this business that you've got.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

So, you know, I started as an entrepreneur. I'm speaking and I'm writing. So of course I'm getting paid to write books. And then I go out and I speak. And it was pretty much just me.

[Emma Grede]

And the books come from the blog, right?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It's like you had the blog and

[Emma Grede]

then it was like you had a

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

publisher approaches me and says, hey, you've got this blog. Do you want to share your story? I'm like, sure, that's fine. I didn't even know that you could, like, get paid for writing. And so I'm like, okay, this is great. I'll share my story. And then I begin to speak and I'd get invitations. And so I'm just facilitating the business of me at that point and being able to, like, set goals for myself. And so I think, this is just gonna be me. But then I have this idea for a conference and I'm thinking to myself, I didn't really wanna have a conference just because I had a popular speaking voice. I really wanted to have a message that I felt like you could build a movement on. And for me, that came from studying Eve in the Bible, which, like, girl, you know, you may not be a Bible thumper, but let me tell you, Eve get a bad rap. Everyone knows that, whether they're a Bible thumper or not. I love a girl who knows better but didn' and I love a guy that'll meet her in the midst of it all. And so Woman Evolved was this ode to Eve for all women who knew better, but haven't always done better, but wanted to believe that better could still exist for them. So I'm gonna host a conference. And I realized that in order to host this conference, I'm gonna need to bring in lights, I'm gonna need to bring in cameras, I'm gonna need to bring in speakers. And so there's a registration fee for the conference. When I started seeing this money hit my account, I realized, wait a minute, this is a business. Like we're not just vibing, we're not just having ideas, you're not just signing books. This is legitimate business. People are investing their money and I to be a good steward over the money that's coming in. As I launched the podcast, I realized that I am having to engage with other businesses for something that just felt like, oh, a passionate pursuit. So I was thrust into business as a result of me pursuing my passion. Business is not at the forefront of my mind. That's why I'm grateful that I have my husband who is more of a natural business person than I am, because I've had this tutor that's been able to help me as I began to see things grow. Right. So now we've gone from a few thousand to millions of dollars coming in in revenue and of dollars going out as a result of expenses. I realized that we're going to have to be very intentional about what is our long term goal and strategy. So of course we want to have the conferences and events, but what is the legacy we want to leave? Well, how do we want to continue to attract incredible talent to make sure that we're amplifying in some of the most powerful ways possible and that requires resources.

[Emma Grede]

And so what does it look like? I'm curious to understand like the Personas. Right. Because it's like you have this one side of you that is very like outward facing and you're on stage and you're, you know, sharing your message. But there has to be another side of you who's like leading the business and working on that side of things. When it comes to your book deals and the, as you say, the strategy of what you're building this media empire, what do those two versions of Sarah look like?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

You know, I'm probably more from my heart when speaking and more from my mind when doing the business side of

[Emma Grede]

things, are you comfortable in.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes. If there is more discomfort on one side, it's probably more the hard side because I'm introverted and I don't necessarily, I don't like speaking. I've just been through a lot. And then you're exposing yourself to so many people. So I am protective, but I do on the mind side of things. On the business side, I had to become intentional because nobody knows what this is but me. And people can come in and they can project their ideas of what it can become, but it's going to take it away from what I know it's supposed to be in my core. And I have to answer for what I did with this influence, for what I did with this call, for what

[Emma Grede]

I did with this purpose, the driver of the strategy and what you want it to be.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I feel like I know what it is. It's hard to explain. I have a sense for what Woman evolve is supposed to be and how it resonates with those people. But I don't always have the talent or the skill set to translate what I feel into meaningful impact.

[Emma Grede]

That's interesting. What do you mean by that? You don't have the talent and skill. I love to hear people talk about what they don't have because everyone always talks about what they do.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

So my husband, on the business side of things, when we started bringing in larger contracts, I knew where the limits needed to be, but I didn't know how to communicate that to partners in a way that still honored the fact that we wanted to be in relationship, but also created some strong boundaries. And so I depended on him for that. My friend Jason is an incredible visual director. I know what I want it to feel like. When the women come into the room, they need to feel fun, they need to feel loved, they need to feel the theme really infiltrate everything that they touch. He can execute that in a way that I can't. So I see myself as someone who understands the vision of what it's supposed to be, how it's supposed to show up, but the actual execution of it. I don't necessarily have the gifts and talents to do that in some arenas

[Emma Grede]

also, I would just think about you as an excellent CEO and leader because. And here's one of the things that I love to talk about all the time, that as a woman in a leadership position, we always envisage that we need to have the answers to absolutely everything, that you need to be the best. And actually, you need to be great at what you're great at. And then you need to find all of the people around you to do and execute the rest. What you are is just an excellent leader. You're an excellent CEO. It doesn't mean to say you need to. You don't need to do the books, you don't need to do the finances, you don't need to do the Vishal, you need to have the vision and tell everybody where to go.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Well, thank you. I want to create space for the best, to be the best. And so my goal is to attract the type of environment and culture that makes it easy for people who have a gift and a talent to come in and to be able to really expand it and magnify it in a way that is ultimately meaningful for the women we get to serve.

[Emma Grede]

Do you have lessons in leadership that you feel like over the years, like, what has changed in your style of leadership and how you come into the kind of business of what it is that you do?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

For sure. I think when I first started, I would just take whatever came my way and whatever people said I should do. And I was finding myself, like, overwhelmed and not really being clear about my message, my brand, my desire to show up in the world as directed by what I believe my sense of calling is. And now I feel more agency, more of a sense of ownership to say what I will do, what I won't do. And I think one of the greatest things that I've learned as a leader is to not apologize for what I don't know. I think that there's this temptation when you're finished, like, accepting whatever comes your way. Then, now I'm gonna overcompensate and know everything and do everything. And I felt like I had found the way to balance like this. I'm really strong in. I know this for sure. I know that for sure. And the things that I don't know, I don't mind not knowing, because it doesn't change who I am in the equation of things. And I don't have to know something that I don't know. My father taught me. He's like, you only don't know once. So if you're ever in a room and someone's talking about something you don't know or something you don't understand, if you ask, you only don't know once, and then from there, you're able to add to your knowledge.

[Emma Grede]

That's some good advice.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Isn't that great?

[Emma Grede]

That's such good advice.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

He should do something with his life.

[Emma Grede]

He should do something over there. I want to talk to you about money. My favorite subject. You grew up in, as you say, a house of faith.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

And I guess that that would have given you a very specific relationship with money. And I just wondered how it shaped you, your idea of money and how you think about wealth and earning money now.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

My father's more of the variety of, like, I have money, you don't. So we're rich. Oh, yeah. That don't have nothing to do with you. Like I said, my parents were on government assistance when I was born. And so I've seen their life grow and evolve. But I think like a lot of families and cultures like mine, my parents were so busy surviving and trying to make the money that they didn't have time to talk about it. So we didn't have a lot of conversations about finances. My father beyond, don't ask me to borrow any if you have already spent the money that you had from your paycheck. So I feel like we, we learned a lot of things on our own or just by watching them. And so I've had to manage my relationship with money from a sense of like, if I don't talk about it, then I'm not going to be able to negotiate for what I need in this moment or to get what I need, the truth from other people. That's the other thing about being in a position. I think this may be true in every field, but I think when you're in a position of fai, like people want to offer you something in exchange for what you've maybe done in their lives with your messages. And I want to know what it costs for real, because, you know, gifts are nice, but I want to know what it would really cost for me to put this event on if you weren't here. And so I've had to have some intentional conversation with people about, like, give me a realistic view of what this costs so that I can plan for longevity and not just for this season.

[Emma Grede]

Has there ever been any conflict in you about essentially making money from a faith connected business?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

For sure. I think one, even though, like when you're writing books, the resources come from the publisher, there's this fine line of wanting to make sure that my ancillary businesses, which do bring in revenue, doesn't look like I'm taking it from people. And I think that there are some legitimate concerns and legitimate ill practices that have taken place that has created distrust between people and faith leaders. And so I've constantly tried to position myself in such a way that I am able to sustain my life and the things that we have going on in our lives outside of resources or donations from other people. Like, I've always tried to make sure that that was a part of what we do because I am relying ultimately on the gifts and talents that God gave me, just like everyone else has. And I want to make sure that we're leveraging them with responsibility.

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[Emma Grede]

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[Emma Grede]

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[Emma Grede]

I want to talk a little bit about your family life and you as a mother, because it's such a huge part of who you are. When I was doing my research, I kind of counted like six kids in a blended family. But let's kind of take me back because we know that you're a teenage mum. I think your eldest is 23 now.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

Malachi, the idea of a 23 year old son when you're younger than me is mind blowing. Yeah, it really is something. I just wonder, like, what he has taught you about yourself. Because obviously, you know, it's like, it's what, you know, motherhood teaches you so much. But this particular child must have taught you maybe more than the others. I don't know.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Malachi has made me believe that I wasn't as bad as I thought I was because I think I spent so much of his childhood feeling like I'm just such a terrible person, such a terrible mom. He deserves so much better. I could do so much better. But he has some of the most beautiful memories of his childhood. Like, he texted me today, he was eating an orange and he's like, this reminds me when I went to summer camp and you packed me this huge lunch. I got to feed all of my friends. And so even though I felt disconnected and distant, he was still getting a part of me that felt like the best part of me, even though I didn't know I was doing my best, which I think is such a message to women who are trying to do it all, that in those moments where you're hard on yourself because you feel like you're falling short, that these children are. They're grading us on a curve. They're grading us on a curve and they don't know any different. And if we can give them the love that we have, if we can give them the presence that we have even as we're growing and changing, that it's enough. And as we grow, the more that we give them, that'll be enough too. But I don't think I was as bad of a mother as I thought I was as a teenager.

[Emma Grede]

How does that make you feel?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Things. Don't do it, Emma. Listen, girl, this is our second time talking. You're not finna have me. I'm done. You're not finna have me cry.

[Emma Grede]

Because I just. I understand that. Like, I understand living with a feeling of how you assumed it was going to be and almost like that becoming your reality in your head because you were Like, I had him so young. I am a bad mom. This. You know, and then the idea that he can turn around and say to you, I have great. Like, that's a big deal.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I think the idea that. As for me, the idea that I didn't want to mess it up, like, so many of the choices that I made was because I didn't want to mess them up. I didn't want to mess them up. I think being driven by that made me show up for him in a way that kept me from messing it up. And I feel like if it really matters to you, even if you don't know what you're doing, the fact that you're trying. I think they pick up on the effort.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

They pick up on the trial. And I think that that can give us consolation as we mother and navigate uncertainty.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, my kids should be so happy with me. There's so much effort. Doesn't always work out exactly as I want it to. But the intention. I actually think that. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say that. That your kids will pick up on the effort and the intention, which for any mother out there who is just doing her best, is huge.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah. I believe that my son's in his 20s. But if you think about. We think about our parenting dynamics, like the things that we penalize our parents for the most is like. It's like you didn't try, but then you can tell when they did try.

[Emma Grede]

You know, when they were trying, they were trying. Yeah.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

And I think that a lot of times we end up with parent ones. Cause it feels like you didn't really try, even when your best wasn't enough. We can at least reconcile the fact that, hey, at least you gave it your best shot. It's the not trying at all that I think leaves us the most wounded. Like, you could have at least tried. Facts, Facts.

[Emma Grede]

The idea that they can actually feel the effort and the intention is a really big and really huge takeaway that I hope anybody that's listening to this really can double down on and understand. Because if you're doing your best, that might be all you have to give.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

That's it.

[Emma Grede]

That might be it. I was interested in your parenting philosophy because you've got a lot of children. You have, like. So you've got your first kid you had as a teenager. You then have a second kid. You then have three in your current relationship and one that you had together.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

So I'm counting. It's a lot.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It's six. It's six.

[Emma Grede]

And with everything going on, have you adopted a specific parenting style, parenting philosophy? Like, what is happening with. What does your family look like?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

You know, the way I try to parent and the way I was parented, they don't go together.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, good. Because that was my next question. Let's talk about that.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

And I had to see. And the problem is that I was formed in a form of parenting that is so counter to the way that I want to parent that I have to remind myself when parenting my children to not turn into my parents when parenting them. Because my parents, they didn't really care about your feelings. You know, they care that you did what I told you to do. And I find myself when my children think I care about their feelings, and I led them to believe that I cared about their feelings. But, Emma, sometimes I don't care. And that's the problem, is they think I care when I don't. And so I'm having to create space for their feelings while also creating space for my own in this dynamic.

[Emma Grede]

Just let's pause there for a second, because I feel like this generational divide is so real. Right? Let's just be there. Like, never in my life of my entire childhood talk about it. Did my mother care about my feeling toward a certain situation.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

And I thought they were wrong until I started hearing these feelings. And I was like, that's why they didn't care.

[Emma Grede]

That's why they knew it was a situation. Slippery slope. And they said, we won't do this.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

We owe the boomers an apology. Because y' all had it a little, right? Because now I find myself having to care about things I don't care about. So here I am, after the longest day known to man, talking about what happened on the playground.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

And I don't care.

[Emma Grede]

Absolutely.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

And I don't care that you don't wanna do your homework and that you don't wanna eat these vegetables. But, you know, I'm trying to, like, care in a way that I haven't. And that's interesting. My greatest philosophy about parenting, beyond, like, don't let these kids and don't let these kids take you out, is create space for you to be a person in the midst of it all. Because kids are selfish by nature, it's okay. The moment they enter the world, everything centers around them. But if you do not begin to introduce that you're tired, that you have vulnerable moments, that you're afraid sometimes, then they will think that you are superhuman instead of just a super good mom or A super good parent. And I want them to know that sometimes it costs me to show up in the way that I do, that I'm not always in a space where I everything concerning you that I need time to. And so I'm trying to introduce them to who I am as a woman, not just who I am as their mother.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, bravo. First of all, you're speaking to the start with yourself lately, so. I am, yeah.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Because when I read your book, I was like, Emma, you were like, the

[Emma Grede]

family chapter starts with you.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I was like, I don't know if you edit it properly. You like to start saying, I learned a lot. No, your book, it really helped me tremendously with business and with family.

[Emma Grede]

Well, I'm so happy that you say that. And I think it's a really important point that you make, because if you don't reinforce the idea that you are something other than a mother, you kind of set your entire family up to see you, but nothing other than a mother. Right. And so you have to kind of take responsibility for that too. And I feel like so many of us make ourselves indispensable to our family. We make our households incapable of running without us. And then we wonder why everybody's to

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

us to do everything for sure.

[Emma Grede]

And so I think that when I think about start with yourself, it's that, you know what, everybody in this house can pick things up from the floor and everybody can make a dinner and everybody can contribute. And so the idea that the mother is going to just be there to constantly service the needs of everybody really dissipates when you've taught everyone that that's not how it is from the get go for sure. And so I think that there is so much that I always want to do, but I don't need everybody else to want me to do it too. So for me, it's just about being really honest about, you know, everybody contributes to this. It's not like mom number one and then, you know, like a bunch of children. It's just not how it works.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

That's my first sign that I need to make a pivot, that my life has gotten imbalanced is when my children start asking me to do things that is perfectly reasonable for them to ask me to do, but that irritates me. So, like, if they start asking me what's for dinner, I know that, like, okay, I moved into this space where I'm allowing everyone to rely on me so much so that when they ask me a simple question like, what's for dinner? I'M annoyed and irritated.

[Emma Grede]

I got a kid, can I get a drink?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

We're getting a snack. I'm like, yeah, wait a minute. You know what I mean? And so allowing them to like, you know, I'm like, I need help, I need support or we're going to have to training. Yes. I have to reorient them.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

But you know, I think the other thing is a lot of times now this is going to be deep.

[Emma Grede]

Are you ready?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Let's go. I think that when we have had moments like I've had where we have struggled with self esteem and low self worth, it is affirmative that the world only spends if we're in the center of it. And it can be edifying for us that everyone needs us. It makes us feel valued, it makes us feel maybe stress and all of those things too. But we kind of like that this world would fall apart if I wasn't in it. And I do think that there is a need for us to decenter ourselves and to not need the world to revolve around us if we're really going to experience the type of liberation that allows them to one grow up and be self sufficient. But also for us to be affirmed outside of what we do for other people. We have to remember the need for other people to center themselves around us.

[Emma Grede]

I mean a million percent. And not only that, but the ability for you to be able to meet yourself in the highest possible way. You need to not be dragged down by all of this stuff that everybody else can help with.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Right.

[Emma Grede]

So it's like the two things are we have to remove our ego from any of that situation and really understand like what is the goal, not just for me, but for the entirety of our family. Like that's a really key thing. I want everybody to feel like they have a position and a job and a role in this family and I don't want to have to carry that God forbid if anything ever happened to me. I always think like I want my kids and my husband to feel like they understand like what is required that they are part of like what has built this and that it doesn't live and fall with me. I always try to have a level of honesty about the things that I, I am not doing. Because when you work as much as you do and you have all of those kids, like something gives. And I talk about trade offs all the time. Do you have trade offs? Are there things that you are just not doing that other moms might be like? I do that all the time. What are you not Doing.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I don't cook as often as I should. We definitely have support in the kitchen because it's a lot of work and a lot of mouths and feet.

[Emma Grede]

It's a lot of food.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I don't do the laundry. This is what I swear. When I started growing in the area of revenue, I started asking myself, how much of this am I doing that someone else could do that would not necessarily damage my children? And they do not care whether or not I fold their clothes. No, they don't.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

They do like to have clean underwear though.

[Emma Grede]

We like them to have clean underwear.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I prefer.

[Emma Grede]

But who cleanses?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

There's a little negotiation there, you know. And so it started like we would maybe a laundry service for just a few things, but then we've been able to evolve that as well. So, yeah, there's definitely some things that I'm not doing and then there are other things that I absolutely have to do. I will die on a heel about getting them kids to school in the morning and picking them up.

[Emma Grede]

We all have our hard and fast. Like this is my thing.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I must see them. I need to see their attitudes before they go to school and I need to see their attitudes when they're coming home. So when I'm on a trip like this, their sister's picking them up, which is like their older sisters. Like the next best thing to have a mom look at them because I know that she'll take care of them, but I don't play about being with them. And can I tell you, I think not even basing it on income, because part of what low income families are able to do that often middle and upper class families don't do is low income families. They work together in order to facilitate someone's going to school and someone like

[Emma Grede]

Yule did back in the day.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Exactly. And so I think that we have an opportunity to also make sure that we, we are allowing people to help us. People who say things like, if you need anything, let me know that we don't want people to feel like, well, I don't want them to think I'm not being responsible, so I don't want to ask for any help. So important is help that there are literally government assistant programs to help caretakers have a day out so that they can take care of themselves instead of taking care of other people. And so I also want to just challenge people to not think that help is limited to certain income brackets. That there's often community support and there are often programs that exist to help people of all income spectrums. To be able to get help and support that they need.

[Emma Grede]

But you still got to be open to taking the help.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

But you got. And admitting that you need it.

[Emma Grede]

Admitting that you need it is a huge, huge thing.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes.

[Emma Grede]

And let me tell you who else you need to help you. You need your husband to help you. Which takes me to my next subject, which is the whole marriage and the business and the partnership, because you work with your husband. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is that for women that have fought so hard to become their own person and to have their independence, what does it look like trying to actually build alongside somebody?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

You know, Emma, I tell my husband all the time, I'm so. I'm so submissive. I'm so submissive. I say that because after he has wrestled with me, if you have to

[Emma Grede]

tell him, I feel like it might not be true.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I'm like, you know what? I am blown away by how submissive I am. It really, you know? And he giggles. I'm not sure what the joke is. It's hard. Especially, like, I'm gonna talk to you. Like, I would talk to, like, one of my homegirls, right? When you have had somebody play in your face and play with your time and play with your body and your money, the last thing you're gonna do is let somebody get over on you again.

[Emma Grede]

Let me just let see what happens next time.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Absolutely not. Right? And so I think I got married. I was like, I love him, but, like, I'm never gonna let anybody play in my face again. But what I realized is, like, having someone reflect your face is not the same as someone playing in your face. And so I had to learn the beauty.

[Emma Grede]

How long did that take you?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Well, we're 12 years in, so last year, 11 years and six months, you know? You know, it's hard. I was so busy trying to protect myself from him that I didn't get to experience the beauty of who he is. And so trusting. Because of my faith, we had this, like, what God has put together, let no person tear apart. And I didn't want to be the one who was tearing it apart. And so I really had to trust that God would allow me to be in partnership with someone who could help make my life better. Even though I had experiences where I put myself with someone in the past and it didn't make it better. So there is a human, there is an awareness. That's. The other thing is, I recovered so hard that I didn't think I had any flaws, you know? After I went down in the dumps and came up like the phoenix that I believe that I am, I said, wow, you really are that girl. There are very few things wrong with you, and if they are, they're in your past. Then I meet Prince Charming, and Prince Charming's like, your shoes off. And I'm like, sir, I prefer to be barefoot. And he's like, okay, well, you're weak until the eye.

[Emma Grede]

Perfect. I will take that off for you.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Like, I've seen that stuff on stage. And so I missed out on the opportunity to, like, really have meaningful feedback that can make me better. And so when I learned to, like, at least take his feedback, even if I took it with my eyes rolled and then, like, you don't know what you're talking about. I'd, like, take him to my closet and be like, well, let me look at it and see what he said. And I would see opportunities for me to grow and opportunities for me to change. And I learned to come to a space where I realized we really are on the same team. Now, his delivery may be different from mine. His perspective may be different. Have to learn how to communicate things. But I know that he's for me. And knowing that he is for me has been one of the greatest gifts that I think that I have been able to offer to our marriage because it has changed the way that we communicate. But it is hard to be in partnership after you've been wounded and hurt. And to allow someone into the most intimate parts of your life is challenging. But when you really trust that that person is there to make your life flourish, and they have evidence of right. Cause we're not just talking about words. I looked at the way that his evidence showed up. We were just dating. He lived in California. I lived in Dallas. It was my daughter's first day of school. He flies into town for her to go to her first day of school. You know what I mean? There were these little things, these little signs along the way where I said, I can trust him. And most importantly, you can trust yourself again. And I feel like, yeah, that you can trust yourself again. When you've made poor decisions in the

[Emma Grede]

past, you don't trust yourself.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It's not about the other person.

[Emma Grede]

That's always what I feel like when. When there are tough relationships, when there are infidelities, when you feel like somebody has played in your face, to use your words, it's not just a mistrust of the other side. It's a mistrust of yourself. Like, you are like, I didn't see that. I didn't understand that. I allowed that to happen to me. So you have to build that trust of yourself. Do you trust yourself now?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yes, I do. I trust myself to do the best that I can with what I know and to recover from. From what I don't know.

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[Emma Grede]

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[Emma Grede]

Where do you. Does the kind of past creep up with you? Because one of the things that's so extraordinary, first of all, you have a marriage and a life and children with your husband. You also work together.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

We do.

[Emma Grede]

Which completely just adds little spice and fire and all the things to the dynamic. How have you kind of reconciled both of those things?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I think. And we're both drivers, right? So when we work together, we play a game called How Low can youn Go?

[Emma Grede]

Oh, please tell.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Okay, so it's like, you know, here's what I think should happen. But hey, I'm gonna toss it over to him to see what he'd like to see happen. He tosses it back to me like, that's a great idea. Here's another perspective that could help take this to the next level. So we're always trying to, like, honor one another's contribution because we are both drivers. But I also think that we recognize that we have different strengths and so he's very macro. He can see the big picture, and to see the big vision. I can see some of the roadblocks we may encounter in the executing of those ideas. And that happens, like, the same way our family exists is the same way that our business. And so he may have this idea, like, hey, the family's gonna run a 5K. And I'm like, that sounds like a really great idea. In execution, that means we need to start training three days a week. We need to change the nutrition. Like, I'm the one who's gonna say, like, okay, we need to. This is how it's gonna filter out. And so that same thing exists in our business. And so. And I've also learned to communicate to him in a way that allows our ideas to really be platformed properly. It's a dance. It's. It's a dance.

[Emma Grede]

It's a dance.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It's a dance. He doesn't care. There are certain things that he. I know he doesn't care about, and there are things he knows that I don't care about. But we have to keep one another informed about those things that the other person doesn't care about, because that gets tricky too.

[Emma Grede]

So tell me, like, if there's a big decision in your business that would affect, like, thousands of people, who wins out? Like, who. What happens in those situations that we.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

We both win. We have to. If there's something big, we have to both agree about the decision that. That we're going to take or we don't do it at all.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I like that role.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

The smaller things is kind of like, hey, I think that's gonna be a loss, but that's up to you. You know what I mean? It's your L to take. Or we'll take the L together. You know what I mean? But while we're taking the L, I'll be telling you, hey, we didn't have to take this L, but the big things we have to be on the same page about.

[Emma Grede]

It's a good rule. I really. I think. And I know that that works.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

I wanted to ask you about. About legacy, because you obviously, you know, your father is one of the most famous pastors in the whole world, and when I think about the idea that you are, you know, in some extent, following in his footsteps, I wonder how you make it yours and how you're thinking about what you want to take from what you learned and what you saw growing up and what you might want to leave behind. And what I don't know if I

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

think about that much at all, to be honest.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah. I don't think about how to make it mine. I just am me, and I bring me to it, and whatever happens from that place happens from that place. But I think that, you know, I've grown up in this shadow my entire life, and I think that there were moments where I was like, I'm gonna be myself, I'm gonna have distinction, and I'm gonna force myself to have a carve out. And I think in the process of doing that, I just wore myself out. I just focus on, like, what is true for me, what is authentic to me in my delivery and my studying and the way that I connect and relate to people. And in the process of doing that, you know, people make whatever choices they make about whatever lane I'm in or whatever it is they see, but I want to be able to lay down at night and say that I was true to myself and true to what I possess.

[Emma Grede]

So how do you think about constantly being a woman who is evolving?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Mm. Well, as it relates to the speaking and being able to talk to people, I really look at them. I think in a world where we can become consumed by seeing people as figures and numbers, that we miss out on the opportunity to really see them. And so when I'm in a room and I'm speaking, I'm looking at what moves people, what resonates with them, to really see them as people. I'm asking myself, when studying, what does this mean to the guy who sits on the second row? What does this mean to the person who's gonna watch this on YouTube? One of the beauties of social media, and it's got a lot of complexities, but one of the beauties is it allows you to see how people think, how people receive, what's happening in the world. And so I get to ask myself, how does this message translate to all of these different people that I get to be exposed to? And I think that that evolves me as a woman. You know, I am in a position where I get to meet people in some of their most vulnerable moments and some of their most vulnerable dreams and aspirations. And the fact that they would trust me with that makes me want to be as well versed as possible about the obstacles they practical, emotional, spiritual, and to give them the types of tools that empower them to take agency in their lives. That's part of the reason why I've gone back to school, is to understand what interventions work, which ones don't and how do I create the types of programs that allow people to really feel positioned to grow into the best versions of themselves? And so I see my teachers as the people who are on the streets, as much as my professor, as much as it is my Bible and the books that I read. I've got teachers.

[Emma Grede]

I wonder what you still aspire to and for in your life.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I aspire to take the large impact of woman evolve and to funnel it down into local expressions that are well informed about the obstacles and barriers that exist within certain communities and creates the type of programmings and tools to help those who are marginalized to move into a position of power. I think a lot about AI and how it's going to impact generation of people who may not be as educated or may not have as much access to technology as it changes. And, you know, no matter how far removed you think you are from that, it's going to impact all of us. And I want to give them the best shot possible at having a life of, you know, stability, for sure, but also wholeness and healing.

[Emma Grede]

That's a really big aspiration.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I know I've got to funnel it down.

[Emma Grede]

No, I've got it. I mean, if anyone. If anyone can do it, you can do it.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Thank you.

[Emma Grede]

All right, we're going to rapid fire. What are you watching or listening to right now? That has nothing to do with faith.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Oh, one second. We just. Oh, Lioness. There's something spiritual about Lioness, though. I don't know. Does it or does not have something to do with faith? Cause my girl is out here doing the Lord's.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Okay, Lioness. We just binge watched Lioness at Paradise. You know, Emma, let me tell you, place as a girl who grew up in church, particularly black church, we find something spiritual about everything. Okay. We just be like, I feel a little oil on that. That's what we say. Okay. I'll be watching shows that don't have anything to do with faith.

[Emma Grede]

Let me tell you.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

You'll be like, you know, I can see it, honey. If I bite into the right morsel of food, I would be like Holy Ghost right here. Felt it right here. So, you know, everything's gonna be a little spiritual for me. But paradise and Lioness is probably taking over right now.

[Emma Grede]

First of all, that's just a great answer. And I feel like that about almost every meal I have. What is your morning routine on a Sunday before you preach?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

I get up. Well, no, when I first. When my alarm first goes off, I keep my eye mask on. For a minute. And I sit there and I breathe, and I remind myself of what day it is, because sometimes I don't even know what day it is or what is expected of me during the day. But I invite the peace of God and the presence of God into my day and ask that I can be a reflection of God in everything that I do. That's before I step out of the bed.

[Emma Grede]

I love that.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

What's the last thing you searched?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Oh, I don't know. What's the last thing I remember? Be honest, because the most random things are in my search history. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna have to give you the most random. My husband and I were looking up something random. I can't remember what it was. I don't know. Probably something about a wash and go hairstyle. See, because my daughter wanted to get her. She wanted to. Let me tell you. You know, I wear a lot of wigs, as I've mentioned, and so my hair is usually braided down. And have seen.

[Emma Grede]

We have seen.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

You know, my hair is usually braided down. But every now and then, my daughter. I let her take her hair out, and she's been wanting to do a wash and go. And I really thought that doing a wash and go was like washing and going. And what I learned is that the people are lying on the Internet.

[Emma Grede]

They're lying.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

If you should trust anybody, it should be the people on the Internet. I don't know why y' all calling these things a wash and go. It's very much given. Wash and stay home before you go anywhere. And so I probably.

[Emma Grede]

We don't have time for it. No, absolutely not.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

No, no.

[Emma Grede]

Hard. No, no, no. So don't. Don't search that. What's your top guilty pleasure?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Oh, a Starbucks cookie. A chocolate chip cookie from Starbucks.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, really?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

It's terrible, Emma. It's terrible.

[Emma Grede]

How often do you allow yourself? What's the indulgement rate?

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Well, okay, so here's the thing. People say that, like, you know, nutrition, if you do, like, 80% good and 20% bad. So 80% of my day is good. That 20% I saved. So. So, you know, is it every day?

[Emma Grede]

It could be.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Possibly.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. I mean, I understand that I used to work with this guy who. And he was like a junior guy in the office, and that we'd all be around and the girls and we'd be having a treat, and he used to walk past our desks and say, it's not a treat if it happens every day, girls. And I just remember you so offended.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Someone hurt him. I want you to be free from that. I want freedom.

[Emma Grede]

Leave us about 20%. All right, last question. What is a book that changed your

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

perspective and oh, I was probably supposed to say the Bible.

[Emma Grede]

I thought you were going to. But no, no, no. You can choose any book that you any any other book.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Okay. Permission to Feel by Mark Brackett. It was life changing for me. I had gone through this. My book hit the New York Times bestseller list and my friends and family, they were all excited and I just did not care and that there was something wrong with me where I wasn't able to feel moments accurately. And that book really helped me a lot.

[Emma Grede]

Wow. Thank you, my love. This is heaven.

[Sarah Jakes Roberts]

Thank you.

[Emma Grede]

Thank you. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. You'll be so grateful. Aspire with Empty Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, emma greed, Ashley McShann, Derrick Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy, Leah Rees, Dennis, Asha Salouja, Lauren LeGrasso Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black Video production by Evan, Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Katherine Bale Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and wme. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can dm me at Aspire. With emigration, Greed is spelled G R E D E. That's Aspire A S P I R E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emma Greed Me.

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