Kimora Lee They Called Me a B*tch. I Built an Empire Anyway

Summary

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Aspire with Emma Grede: “Kimora Lee - They Called Me a B*tch. I Built an Empire Anyway”

Podcast: Aspire with Emma Grede
Host: Emma Grede
Guest: Kimora Lee Simmons
Date: April 7, 2026
Duration: ~72 min (Content begins at 03:10)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Aspire with Emma Grede features a deep, blunt, and unapologetic conversation with Kimora Lee Simmons, iconic model, entrepreneur, and the founder of Baby Phat. Emma and Kimora dive into what it actually takes to build something and keep it, exploring the realities of being a woman of color in fashion and business, the struggle for a seat at the table, learning from mistakes, the importance of owning your narrative, and the lessons that have shaped Kimora’s decades-long career and personal life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers and “Firsts”

Timestamps: [03:48]–[06:21]

• Kimora reflects on being one of the first women of color on Paris runways and running a major business, noting she didn’t realize the impact as it was happening.
• “I did not know that at the time. I thought I was just a busy little bee doing what I do... Today I think of some of these moments as iconic.” — Kimora [04:16]
• Family has become her primary motivation, a constant amid business ups and downs.

2. Regrets, Double Standards, and Fighting for Agency

Timestamps: [06:22]–[09:04]

• Kimora candidly admits to having “tons of regrets” and details the gendered double standards she faced.
• “I wished it was a different environment, that I could… have my own way or do things myself.” — Kimora [07:13]
• She reflects on the challenge of fighting for agency without being labeled as difficult, a label men never received.

3. Evolving Identity and Maternal Instinct

Timestamps: [09:04]–[11:50]

• Kimora discusses her recent decision to drop the Simmons name as a closing of a chapter, stepping into the unknown but embracing her evolving role.
• She’s a maternal figure not just to her biological kids but to many others, creating a nurturing community and home.

4. Origins: Navigating Identity and Early Modeling

Timestamps: [11:50]–[16:11]

• Raised in St. Louis by a single Asian mother, Kimora was different—mixed heritage, tall, and unique.
• Initiated into modeling by her mother, she was first exposed to finishing school before being scouted.
• Early experiences of not fitting in (“You’re not quite black, you’re not quite white, you’re definitely not Asian enough”) gave her thick skin for the fashion industry.

5. Early Fashion Career: Chanel and Power Dynamics

Timestamps: [16:11]–[24:26]

• At 13, Kimora began working with Karl Lagerfeld at Chanel, not fully realizing the magnitude at that age.
• “If it doesn't fit you, I didn't make it for you. But this is what I grew up with.” — Kimora, quoting Karl Lagerfeld [22:34]
• The fashion world taught her about hierarchy, confidence, and the critical importance of being prepared for change.

6. Business Lessons and the Birth of Baby Phat

Timestamps: [24:26]–[36:09]

• Baby Phat emerged from Kimora recognizing a gap in the market—clothes that celebrated, not diminished, women of color and curves.
• “Everything started to become a little sexier… These were women that were women of color that were not high fashion. Yes, and it was streetwear, but with a flair.” — Kimora [29:47]
• Honestly discusses her role as creative driver but being given the smallest ownership stake, as business conversations happened without her: “I missed all of the preliminary conversations… I wasn't privy to the fact that these businesses took place.” — Kimora [32:57]

7. Taking Back Her Legacy

Timestamps: [36:09]–[45:44]

• Selling Baby Phat left Kimora feeling sidelined, her contribution undervalued—her ex-husband and male partners received the lion’s share.
• She details how she eventually bought Baby Phat back after it changed hands multiple times, emphasizing the value of protecting brand DNA.
• “Usually when you want your brand back, it’s a little bit tricky… you really do build these things up to let them go. Right? It’s like letting your child go in the world.” — Kimora [44:31]

8. Motherhood, Mentorship, and Generational Change

Timestamps: [45:44]–[49:59]

• Actively mentors her children in business; they face their own forms of industry bias but benefit from her experiences and advice.
• Discusses the #MeToo movement and its wide-reaching, overdue impact on both the entertainment and fashion industries.
• “It wiped out so many people that we had, so many guys of color, so many black people, a whole industry… But so many people do.” — Kimora [49:23]

9. Money, Lessons, and Power Dynamics

Timestamps: [56:09]–[63:12]

• Kimora admits she didn’t make what she deserved early on but is now “better off than almost all of those people now, exponentially” because of prudent investing and learning from hard experiences.
• Illustrates hard-learned legal lessons about prenuptial agreements and business contracts; tells a story of getting legal advice from Ivana Trump after being blindsided.
• “Read the fine print. No one’s going to do it for you and what you think that you deserve… it comes down to the black and white of it.” — Kimora [42:07]

10. Reputation, Resilience, and Growth

Timestamps: [63:12]–[66:32]

• On being labeled “a bitch” for standing up for herself, Kimora says: “Every single time… I was a bitch. I was impossible. Women don’t do that. You are costing too much. Why would you do this? But I learned it from them.”
• Advocates for transparency between women and the importance of helping each other avoid the pitfalls she fell into.

11. What Success Means Now

Timestamps: [65:19]–[66:32]

• Success = impact: “When you hear of other people that have taken your tales and your journey and have made a better life for themself, I think that’s a good way to measure success.”

12. What She Aspires To Now

Timestamps: [66:32]–[68:41]

• Now aspires to “have peace, happiness… and stillness,” and to give back, leave a legacy, and encourage others—especially from immigrant or marginalized backgrounds—not to let anyone rewrite their story.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Regrets:
  “I have tons and tons of regrets, but those are my life… But you can’t say like, oh, I wish I didn’t have these partners. I wish I didn’t have that man… You don’t always get it that way, but you think of it in a sense like it could have been. Could it have been different.” — Kimora [06:42]

• On Ownership:
  “Did you own enough of the business, given your contribution?”
  “No. No, definitely not. And that was one of those things that I learned and that’s, you know, you live and you learn.” — [32:05]

• On Gendered Double Standards:
  “Every single time that I did something that someone taught me, I was a bitch… But I learned it from them. Them meaning the men, them meaning the partner…” — Kimora [61:40]

• On Resilience:
  “If you asked me to marry you right now, Emma, I would say yes… I try and I believe in it. And then sometimes things come up and it's okay. Don't be afraid to restart. Don't be afraid. …Know what you're gonna tolerate.” — Kimora [63:23]

• On Defining Success:
  “I think it is when other people come up to me and say, you've made a difference in my life…” — Kimora [65:24]

• On Legacy:
  “The fact that you can make something out of nothing. Remember that and remember this place… Don’t let somebody else rewrite your history.” — Kimora [66:36]

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Rapid Fire Insights

[68:41]–[71:05]

• Morning Routine: Water for blood flow, then unfortunately phone [68:45].
• Night Routine: Reflect, like a prayer [68:56].
• Business Advice She Ignored: “You should do that, it's going to make you a lot of money.” She never regretted sticking to her values [69:20].
• Wildest day in one word: “Fucked” — for good and bad [69:54].
• Books that Changed Her Life:
  • “The Power of Now” by Eckhart Tolle
  • “Don’t Believe Everything You Think”

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Episode Takeaways

• Fight for Your Seat: Don’t assume your value will be recognized—demand it and know your worth.
• Read Contracts: Legal literacy is a must, especially for women and marginalized founders.
• Invest in Yourself: Build, save, invest—don’t wait for others to secure your future.
• Support Other Women: Transparency and community can break cycles of inequality.
• Your Mistakes Don’t Define You: It’s the decisions you make after that shape your path.
• Aspire to Growth and Peace: Success is about impact, peace, and the legacy you leave behind.

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This episode is essential listening for women entrepreneurs, creatives, and anyone fighting for their rightful seat at the table. Kimora’s blunt storytelling and actionable lessons are a roadmap for surviving and thriving despite adversity and double standards.

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Transcript

[Emma Grede]

Today on Aspire, I'm sitting down with the Kahmora Lee Simmons and our conversation is about what it really takes to build something that's yours and keep it. We get into what it was really like not being in the rooms where the decisions were being made and having to fight for your position constantly and then realizing how much of the game is just simply getting a seat at the table and having something of your own to bring to it. She opens up about being told that

[Ashley McShan]

her ex husband's success was the same

[Emma Grede]

as hers, the moment she questioned if she could actually stand on her own, and the double standards that she consistently faced trying to play the same game as men. We also talk about knowing what you will and won't tolerate, not being afraid

[Ashley McShan]

to start over, and why your mistakes

[Emma Grede]

don't define you, but your decisions really do.

[Ashley McShan]

Kimora, as you expect, is blunt, honest and unapologetic. And yes, she has the receipts. So if you're building something big or

[Emma Grede]

stepping into your power, this episode is exactly what you need.

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[Ashley McShan]

The Start With Yourself tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sale [e-mail]

[Emma Grede]

Kahmora welcome to Aspire.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Emma Grede]

I am so happy to have you. It's just like, magical. Finally, a little piece of magic to have you sitting across from here. I've wanted to speak to you for the longest time.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I feel like we have, but not in this format.

[Emma Grede]

It feels long overdue. And I tell you what, the reason that I've wanted you here is because I feel like I have looked at you and watched you and mapped your career and your business in your life, in your trajectory for the longest time.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

An Emma mapping.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, literally an Emma mapping. I didn't even need the research.

[Ashley McShan]

I was like, it's okay. I know everything that I want to ask her.

[Emma Grede]

I think what makes you so iconic is that you have had so many firsts in your life. One of the first women of color that was working on the runways and walking the runways in Paris. I think about you as one of the first women of color that I knew that was running a really giant business. And I wonder actually what those firsts mean to you today.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, that's a good question, Emma.

[Emma Grede]

I'm going to be full of good questions. You just wait.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

When I think back to some of my first, they were iconic moments, but I did not know that at the time. I thought I was just a busy little bee doing what I do. Creating and creating something I love and doing it because of fashion. That was the timing of it again and again and again. And everything was always subject to this idea of critics. Everything was subject to, like, a review or somebody, you know, writing something or what they thought or a write up in vogue. And so I just know to put my head down and do the work, do what comes naturally, do what you love, do what you feel is missing, but don't really worry about the after effect. So I think today I think of some of these moments as iconic. Like, wow, I really did that.

[Ashley McShan]

I wonder when you've had so many

[Emma Grede]

of those firsts, like, what gets you up and out of bed now, like, what propels you forward and makes you excited after you've had so many of these, like, big peak moments?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, I think when you're doing the big peak moments, you probably don't realize you're for Yourself, you realize that you obviously, you know that you realize you're doing something big for yourself at any given moment. Right. But then you kind of pass the moment, and then it was like, a big deal or an iconic moment or a first, and then the moment kind of passes. It always stays a first for you. But other people come and go, and there's many iterations of that. Or you might be like, I did that. I thought of that. So I think it's always kind of a continuum. And I think now what propels me is really my kids and my family. And that's always been there. I've been on the Runway with my kids. I was one of the first designers to come out and take a bow with my kids. Nobody was doing that then. Nobody had their little kids or toddlers or their baby. Nobody even came out with, like, this baby. They're literal baby fat. No one showed that. I had my life and my family, and things have always changed, and people come and go. I always say this, but your kids and your family, that element is a constant. And so I think now when I get up and I go to work, and I think things and things are tough or you don't really want to do it, you always think of them.

[Ashley McShan]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Emma Grede]

You've done so many things and so many of these firsts. And when I look back, it's like, one second, you built a business, you sold a business, you bought the business back. When you look back at your journey, like, I wonder, do you have any regrets? Do you have any moments where you

[Ashley McShan]

thought, oh, my goodness, like, I wish

[Emma Grede]

this had been so different.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, my gosh, I have tons of regrets.

[Ashley McShan]

Thank you for being honest about it.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I think nobody knows they're called regrets, but I think that's probably why you. Look, if you see me now and I'm out talking about things, sometimes it'll come out, like, and another thing, or, you know, and I want to say this or. And I'm tired of holding this in. Like, I have tons and tons of regrets, but those are my life. Those ended up being my life. Like, I regret. You know, it could be something like when I was doing so long ago, decades ago. I've been doing this for 30 years, just the side of it. Talking about fashion, talking about retail business, of clothes. If you're talking about modeling. I started at probably 10 in St. Louis and 13 in Paris. I'm a long, long time. But just this idea of fashion. I think back sometimes, and probably some of the things I don't Love are some of the things that are great, you know, things I wish I hadn't have gotten into bed with, literally. But like with all these men. I wished it was a different environment, that I could like, speak up or that I could kind of have my own, you know, have my own way or do things myself. I did that. But it was like a fight and it was like a big thing and it was like at the risk and expense of you being a bitch or you being like someone scared of you or you being all these things that like, no one ever said about my partners, my ex husbands, of which I have three, no one ever said that about them. It was a very man centric kind of man focus. There wasn't a woman speaking out or speaking up or stepping out or getting out. There was none of that. And then that led into like, obviously other aspects of my entire life that I wish I could do things differently. But you can't say like, oh, I wish I didn't have these partners. I wish I didn't have that man. I wish I could have chose a different baby daddy or whatever is man focused. You know what I mean? You don't always get it that way, but you think of it in a sense like it could have been. Could it have been different.

[Ashley McShan]

Where we sit with you right now,

[Emma Grede]

we're in a very unique time for you.

[Ashley McShan]

And I know that you recently dropped your last name.

[Emma Grede]

Simmons.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Which kind of Simmons and Leisner Simmons.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, so you got rid of.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

People were like, oh, she dropped it. Now that she doesn't need it. Honey, I haven't been needing it for a while.

[Emma Grede]

But that's cute. I know that. I mean, I didn't think it was.

[Ashley McShan]

Cause you didn't need it.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

That's true. I dropped it all.

[Emma Grede]

But it closes a chapter, right? It closes a chapter. So what chapter are you stepping into now?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I'm stepping into now a chapter that I don't know how I got here. Every day I look up and I'm like, how did we get here?

[Emma Grede]

Do you really?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Every day I'm like, wow, I've been here a while. I've done this a while. So I'm very happy to be where I am. I'm very grateful, I'm very humble. My kids, although I do. I have Wolfie at home. He's 10. So Ming, she's 26, Aoki's 23, Kenzo and Gary are 16. Gary's adopted, so they're not twins. And then Wolfie is 10.

[Ashley McShan]

You have five children at home.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Those are just kids at home. I mean, my kids, My kids that are at home. But I have lots of other kids that are like out in the world that I.

[Ashley McShan]

What do you mean you have lots of other kids?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I have friends and I have family and I just feel like I have lots. I have Jaden that lives in the house with me. You might have seen him on the show. I have the twins, Jesse and Delilah, that I speak about all the time.

[Emma Grede]

Combs, how have you ended up with all these kids under your roof?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

They've been there. Not under my roof, just in my life, in my care, needing your supervision, eating your food, coming, stopping by, eating your food.

[Emma Grede]

They're in your house.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Like being part of your family, part of the, you know, community.

[Emma Grede]

What does that say about you and who you are?

[Ashley McShan]

Are you just naturally extremely maternal that you attract this.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I'm that mom. That's like saying, I'm that bitch. I'm that mom. When all of this stuff that we are going through nowadays, when we go through this, a lot of people end up at my house, on my couch, in my arms, or in my loving embrace. Yeah. Cause it just goes that way.

[Emma Grede]

Do you have the energy and the capacity beyond the means to look after everyone?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yeah, I have the capacity because I have so much. It's like they also say, like, to whom much is given, much is expected. Everything about me is like a little more than the average bear. So I have capacity, I think, for like all the little kids, all the things, they're lost and confused, you know, they're little.

[Emma Grede]

No. And they need you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And they think. Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

So take me back to your childhood a little bit. Because, you know, the capacity to be this type of woman, the rich auntie

[Ashley McShan]

that takes everybody in. But that really wasn't your start in life.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So. I was born in St. Louis, Missouri. It's the Midwest, the middle of the United States.

[Emma Grede]

The middle, yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It's rocks and like limestone caverns. And I was very different growing up there. I looked very different. My mom is Japanese Korean, so she's 100% Asian. My dad is mixed black, white, native, mixed a black man. But my dad was not in my life like that. He wasn't around. He's passed on now. But I grew up with my mom, a single parent household. Single, you know, one. Just my mom, single income family. And my mom as well for herself, right? It was my grandma for my mom. So I come from a very matriarchal type of family.

[Emma Grede]

And it was your mother that kind of placed you in Modeling, right.

[Ashley McShan]

If I remember.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, I went to like finishing school. Nothing to do with modeling, but it was like just to sit up straight or to be able to walk in your room and give your resume. It was a little bit more like that, like modeling classes, but sit up straight, take a picture, do this. I had no clue at the time that that was going to lead to any sort of modeling. But like growing up in St. Louis and being so different and always being teased for, like looking like this or just being a little different. You're not quite black enough, you're not quite white enough, you're definitely not Asian enough. Like, what? You're a mix and a mix then was like half black, half white, right? Okay. Mariah Carey was considered, like exotically mixed at that when I was younger. Okay. And to me, that blows my mind. It definitely was about getting me to a place where there was like minded people and you could just build a little confidence for yourself. This is a little girl, like 12 years old. Stand up straight. I was so tall. So it's like not humping over, not feeling that you have to blend in and be a wallflower.

[Emma Grede]

Do you remember, like, when it all started happening for you? Because you were, you were 13 in

[Ashley McShan]

Paris, and I think 13 when you

[Emma Grede]

got to work with Karl Lagerfeld. And that to me just blew my mind.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I was so young. I think it's that someone said to me it was a photographer's wife, and I think she was doing like the makeup or the styling. And this is when I was young, before I even got to Paris. And she said to me, you know, you have this something about you. This look, this thing, this thing. And if you really wanted to do this thing, you can, because you have, you have it. I think you have it. And I'm, well, okay, what is that? This invisible thing that I have, Right. I'm really tall, I'm really awkward. What is it? Let's go for it. And I think that was the first person that said, you know, you have this thing. And I don't know if anybody has ever been able to really put their finger on what's this thing. But I kind of went for it.

[Emma Grede]

Did you believe it?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I believed her. Yeah. Her name was Meg, and I believed her. She told me that I looked up to her. I was at, you know, doing photo shoots and like test shots and things like that. Sure, I believe them. Like if somebody looks up from the camera and says, oh, you're doing it. You look great. You're like, okay, I look great. That was the first time no one had ever told me that I looked great or I was doing something great. Keep in mind, I was just there for, like, finishing. Sit up straight. Put a smile on when you're nervous or something like that. Right. Shake someone's hand. I never knew this was gonna lead me to, like, Paris, and it did. I was discovered by a modeling agency, and they happened to be from France. It was a convention. So all of these people had come to Kansas City, and you had to show your book and you had to walk. There was all these different kinds of work.

[Ashley McShan]

You handed your book over beautifully with

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

all your 20,000 shots in it. And again, they said, you know, you have this thing. You can come. You can come to Paris. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I have to get my mom to say that's okay.

[Emma Grede]

Was she ready to pack you off to Paris? I don't think so, no.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

But she did. And she worked for the government. She worked for Social Security, which means it's, like, very regimented, nine to five. And I was like, please. And I think she thought it was probably. And it proved to be very true. Safer on the road or in the world of Paris or in the world than it was in St. Louis, Missouri. Okay. In 1980, whenever I went to Paris. Wow.

[Emma Grede]

And I guess she knew that you were stepping into something that could potentially be really amazing for you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yes. Something that could be amazing and something that I wanted to do and I definitely wanted to try.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Like, give it your best. You know, we have kids. You have kids. If they want to try out for basketball, you're like, okay, you're not going to be like, you can't do that. You're really clumsy. You have two left feet. You're like, it's basketball now. Let's get these shoes. Let's get this kit.

[Emma Grede]

Let's go.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So I think she was saying, let's go. And it was a treacherous environment. But like I said, compared to coming from St. Louis, Missouri, I wasn't running around the streets of St. Louis, Missouri. And I always used to say that when I'm gone, I don't have a curfew. When I come home, my curfew's midnight or whatever as a kid. And I think it was just two different worlds.

[Emma Grede]

Take me back to those times. So, like, give me a picture of what it's like in Paris. You turn up and, like, what is actually happening? Are you going, like, on go sees and getting turned down? Like, what is the actual environment that you're put in? And how do you even relate to that as a 13 year old from the middle of the country?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, you have to have a thick skin, that's for sure. But I had had that already from being, you know, chased down the hallway at school for looking different. So you definitely had to have a thick skin. But one of my first castings was for Chanel. So I was discovered. Carl took me, I went to work there.

[Emma Grede]

Did you know who Carl was at that time?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I knew that it was Chanel.

[Emma Grede]

Right.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Just like now, if a girl goes to a casting, I think you're seeing the designer, you're walking, you're trying on some clothes.

[Emma Grede]

Did you understand, like, this is a big deal, like, if I get this job, then this is something major?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I did not. But I understood, understood it when I got the job. Because they said he booked you. Carl liked you. That's as easy as somebody saying you looked terrible when you went in there. They said you look tired, like Carl liked you. And I started going to work every day at Rue Cambone. 31 Rue Cambone, which is still Coco Chanel's apartment. Absolutely still. The main atelier. It's the main boutique, 31 Rue Cambone. I would walk down Rue Cambone every day, get my strawberry tart. I talk about this all the time. And I would go to work there every day. Like that was my nine to five. And then, yes, I shot the campaigns. That was when Carl was at the dawn of being a photographer. So he had started shooting his own campaigns and doing all this stuff. I don't even know if Chanel appreciated that then. But we came to, you know, love it. So I was shooting campaigns, I did the show. My first show was Couture. I was the bride. And that was like kind of the beginning of everything.

[Emma Grede]

And what did those early experiences teach you about power?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So much so I don't think I knew exactly what I was getting into. I learned so much about decision making and putting your ideas forward and trying new things and working in a system that has a chain of command and being like the house of Chanel and working with Carl, who's a designer and designing for that house. I learned so much behind the scenes from being with him day in and day out. But again, at the time, that was like my, like my confidant. We were together day in and day out for years. I never before my contract ended. And then I could go and do other things. And by then you're gonna get any other things?

[Emma Grede]

Totally. Cause you've been at Chanel.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So that's when the castings really came for me and they would say yes or no. In the beginning they couldn't cause I didn't go. I was only at Chanel.

[Ashley McShan]

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[Emma Grede]

I'm really interested to understand what that early kind of exposure in fashion ultimately, like, impacted in the business, why I

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

had this different beginning. It's because I know ry to this day. First of all, I'm an Asian, like tiger mom. They say you probably shouldn't say tiger mom anymore. It's played.

[Emma Grede]

But it's okay. You don't have to be.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

But it's true.

[Emma Grede]

You don't have to be correct and politically correct.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And I'm definitely the type that's always saying, what's next? Or what more, what else is there? And I've written about this in my book. I was scared that I had ended up in this place where beauty or what someone's impression of your beauty is rewarded so greatly with so much that was amazing to me. Incredible. I was being given, like, clothes. I was going to school. When I did go back home, which was only for little months at a time, I had on my silk Chanel ballet flats, my tweed jackets. I had no clue that it was fabulous. It was all I could afford because it was free. It was given to me from Carl, right? So this is what I'm going to school in. They probably were like, what the heck is happening?

[Emma Grede]

What is happening?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So I didn't realize, I think, the magnitude. I've always thought, what else is there? And I think that scared me that someone or an industry or a group of people could put so much to do on your beauty or your long legs. These are all things to me that are weird, and I didn't have them just before in St. Louis. I was ugly. I was the ugly duckling. I was the weirdo. So now it's like, which one is it? And I think I had to think of a backup plan because I thought, well, just as quickly as they took you in, could be as quickly as they ushered you out. And I don't think a lot of people think like that today. Certainly when you see models nowadays, they're not thinking of what's next. You can clearly see that.

[Emma Grede]

Were there things like lessons in creative leadership that you actually learned from Karl that you took into your business later on?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Every single thing. I learned everything. They weren't actually official classes, but being around someone to this day of such greatness and magnitude and presence, I think in the business just rubbed off on me. And to have that then be like your papa or your uncle or your dad or your. Whatever you want to call your mentor definitely, you know, rubbed off on me. So you learn this juxtaposition, and you learn this delicate dance, and it's a dance of beauty and power. And I landed myself in this perfect seat. Because also, if you think about it nowadays, that you've heard all these things about Carl, I feel like he kind of lived his life in that way, too. They run it, but I'm running it. So I learned all these things from that point of view. I'm trying to be nice, but no,

[Emma Grede]

no, no, don't be nice.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

You guys know Carl. Imagine. You can see. You can see some of the things he said. He has said things like, if I. If it doesn't fit you, I didn't make it for you. But this is what I grew up with. This is what I grew up with, right? If it didn't fit me, then it wasn't made for me. And if you're standing here right now, well, then that opportunity is for you. And I believe that. What is your opportunity? No one can take that away. It doesn't matter how you got there or you will get there. That is your moment. It can't Be you can't be derailed from that.

[Emma Grede]

What do you think is your biggest lesson from those times?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, gosh, my mom used to tell me, don't accept any wooden nickels. I didn't even know what the hell that was. That means don't accept any BS from anybody. Just selling you the bridge. And I just.

[Emma Grede]

Did you, Eva?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I did. I got into. I would say no, but yes, the truth of it is I did. But it never really derailed me, I think, as much as it could have. But like, I look at that as like businesses failing or divorce. Right. I've gone through these things. So some of these things were big things I took on that, like, didn't end the way that I thought. To me, that's kind of like a failure, a marked, you know, if you started something that it didn't work and that's totally fine. We start things all the time. It didn't work. You cannot be successful if you do not start things and it doesn't work. If everything works out for you, that's probably not the best, the easiest, most sound proof, totally.

[Emma Grede]

You're not doing enough.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So I think I learned some of these things, you know, the hard way. But again, I was. I was just in it and I was mature far beyond my years. So I don't think people thought they were dealing with a 13 year old or a 15 year old or a 16 year old or an 18 year old. And I think that set me up for life. And the lessons that Carl instilled in me and even just working with me for so long gave me kind of a stamp of approval that took that need away from getting that approval someplace else.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, no doubt, because I never really

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

had that growing up.

[Emma Grede]

So I want to talk to you about baby fat and this like, glorious moment, but you need to kind of

[Ashley McShan]

paint the picture for us because hip

[Emma Grede]

hop really was like at the center of culture in the early 2000s. And so talk to me about starting this brand because it really did get to like, high heights. Right. We're talking about a brand that at one point had a billion dollars of combined sales between, you know, the licensed goods and what you were selling. I mean, it's really something that's pretty, like pretty epic. So I'd really want to kind of go back and understand, like, where did that start?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Okay, so I was with my ex. I met him very young. I was 16.

[Ashley McShan]

We're talking about Russell at this point.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yes, my first husband. I met him when I was 16. We were off and on for Some years. That's way too young now, in hindsight. But you couldn't tell me.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, I'm glad you said it.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yeah, it's way too young.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

But I thought I was grown.

[Emma Grede]

Of course you did.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And I thought because it's the same girl who's living on her own. When I met him, I was already living in Paris, and I came to New York. So I go through my modeling, I'm going through my relationship. Things get serious as the years progress on. We actually got married when I was, I want to say early 20s, maybe 21 or 22, because Ming's 26 right now, so early 20s. Russell, at the time had a men's clothing line called Phat Farm. P H A T. Like, pretty hot and tempting. That's the PG verse. And we wanted to do a line for women. Everything they would come up with was like, you can imagine, it looked like Fat Farm, which was very classic clothes with an oversized kind of a streetwear fit. So we had baggy jeans, but we also had, like, argyle sweaters. Right. Very classic pieces. Pieces that look like they could have been Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, some of our friends who helped us get into the business. Right. So very classic mix with, like, this street edge. When women wanted to wear anything of fashion. Now we're talking women that could not only afford high fashion. If you could afford high fashion, great. You have money. You can get whatever you want. Yeah, we're talking about those who could not. There was really nothing for them. And then you would drop down from high fashion. There was this something called contemporary. Like, Emma, this is before even you were doing all this. Actually, you came in. We had these categories, right? These crazy sizes and these things. There was contemporary, and that was still a little bit expensive.

[Emma Grede]

That's kind of where you are now.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And then there's this concept, concept of, like, what else is there? There wasn't. Nowadays, that would be street wear.

[Ashley McShan]

Totally.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Nowadays that would be quicker fashion. It wasn't then at all. Right. We designed to the seasons. It was every a few times a year, collections matching up around the world with your deliveries. It was different. He had a men's line. We wanted to do women's. If you remember women of our of that time, again, my graduating class, who were the girls that were hot? Aaliyah. Yes. Tlc.

[Emma Grede]

Right?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

You think of these girls, even Janet Jackson, some of her performances. Look at their clothes. They always had on something super sexy, but they had on something oversized or like a guy's baseball jersey opened up with like, a little bra.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah. Like overalls, like, absolutely.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Or like, crisscross. This backwards dressing. Black color.

[Emma Grede]

Black, yes.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And all oversized. Right. The sideways leaning hat. We don't want that.

[Emma Grede]

No.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

To me at that time, and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. So, yes, I went to the big time in Paris, but I'm from.

[Emma Grede]

But you're still middle of America then mentality. Yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

There was nothing that spoke to women that had this edge of fashion or flair or anything of what I liked. Nothing else of what they liked. And I realized it was, again, a man's world. And the women would kind of, like, pink it and shrink it. Like, just kind of, like, wear my size. It was my boyfriend's jacket. Varsity jacket. Those are even big today. Letterman jacket, baggy clothes, all of these things. And I kept saying, we don't want. We don't want that. And here's why. This is what we want. This is how we move. Blah, blah, blah. They would look at me so crazy, and they would say, well, she's a high fashion model. Because keep in mind, I'm high fashion. I came in from couture. I didn't come in from ready to wear. I did that. But my entrance was couture. So they would look at me and say, okay, she definitely knows what she's talking about. Or as a business move. That's better. Everything was better. But it was under the guise of what a man said or what a man said you would do or how a man said you would do it. That was my husband. And so they started to listen to me. And we created this concept, this women's brand called Baby Fat.

[Emma Grede]

What was your role then?

[Ashley McShan]

Did you have, like, an official name?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I don't think it was an official name, no. Telling them what to think, telling them what to make, telling them what to wear, trying it on, showing you how it was like, if you look back to, like, I don't know, I got nothing but love for you Video with Heavy D. All those girls were probably wearing baby fat. They had on a little T shirt.

[Ashley McShan]

Wow.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Said baby fat. That was the thing. We made little baby tees. I wanted to say I coined this idea of the baby tee, but I don't think I actually did. But we made it, like.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, you could say it where

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

you took these T shirts and you wore. Literally.

[Emma Grede]

And they were little.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yeah. So everything started to become a little sexier. I would take, like, the leather crazy pants and make a little hot short. I remember I had this little chocolate hot short that all the Girls tell me they have it still to this day that I gave them. I would call upon all of my model friends. He would call upon all of his, and Lord knows he had a lot. A lot. It's a different podcast, but.

[Ashley McShan]

Or it could be this one.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I mean, that's a whole nother day. We'll have to go through. We'll have to go through. But we called on all of our model friends, our friends in fashion, and we started making things that I liked, that I thought represented women better, a better fit. These were women that were women of color that were not high fashion. Yes. And it was streetwear, but with a flare, and it was what these guys had, but in our size and our kind of style. So this was the onset of the tracksuit, the velour suit. This was the five pocket jean.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, it was.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

This was a jean that had stretchy in it.

[Emma Grede]

There was such an outsized impact on the culture. And I have to tell you, even going back to when I started Good American, which is nine, ten years ago now, when the original idea was festering, some of the original samples and I went on ebay, I was going on resale sites, I was like, find me

[Ashley McShan]

the baby fat jeans.

[Emma Grede]

Because I knew that the fit of those, the construction of those was so good. But more specifically, it wasn't what everything else was. It wasn't a straight body block. Right.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It wasn't stiff.

[Emma Grede]

No. It was made for. To hug and curves and to accentuate the curves.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yeah. Because then that was not popular. And nobody was creating for those women. No one was creating for a woman of color, and no one was creating for a woman of any size.

[Emma Grede]

Did you understand that that was a business proposition there, or was that just more like a creative point of view? Were you like, one second, this is a business strategy here?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No, it became that I understood there was a hole in the market.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And although, yeah, I'm skinny and I'm slim and I was modeling because I didn't gain weight until. I've gained plenty of weight off and on since then.

[Emma Grede]

You're fine. I've had kids.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I have kids. So I've been up and down and all kinds of things. Right. I might have been skinny at the time, but my customers and my cohorts and my pe, my demographic.

[Emma Grede]

And you understood that. What about this piece? Because again, it's like you've been, you know, a gun for hire. For all intents and purposes, you're a model. You're getting paid a fee to go and do a Job to this, like, company that you're essentially creating. How did you structure that? What was the arrangement like? Did you own a piece of the business?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yes, of course. Yes. But it was the smallest piece of the business, right. Because there was other guys and other partners and the guys were my ex husband's, you know, friends.

[Emma Grede]

Did you own enough of the business, given your contribution?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No. No, definitely not. And that was one of those things that I learned and that's, you know, you live and you learn. I probably made. I think we ended up selling that. Now we're fast forwarding through everything, right? I think we built that company up and probably sold it for 100 and something million dollars. I probably got 20 million of that or less out of 100 something million dollars. And the entire sale was based on baby fat. Which you could look at the date because when we sold it, there was fat. Farm was obsolete. It was still there. But that was not what you were selling it for. You're selling it for baby fat. And I only learned this because people would tell me, like, oh, you have to come to work today. We're having this meeting with these bankers. We're gonna sell it. And I'm like a little confused, but a little excited.

[Emma Grede]

What did you miss when you sit down now? Because you're an incredible businesswoman and you've been that not just for yourself, but also for your family. So what did you miss going back in that time?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I missed all of the preliminary conversations. I missed all of the conversations about how great the brand was, all of the numbers that were turned in, all of the numbers on the business.

[Emma Grede]

You weren't paying attention?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No, not that I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't privy to the fact that these businesses took place. It was literally who of my partners now then? Do we know now? So Bobby Shriver was one of my partners. He's my kid's godfather. He's a Kennedy. Bobby Shriver was one. I'm telling on folks today. Leor Cohen was one.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, yeah, we all know Leor.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Like, I mean, we can go through these partners of who they were and they. You could. I don't know how much of this is public and how much is not. The number that we sold it for is public. You can see, you can deduct my amount and see the amount that was left. And there was a few other partners that were more like garmentos and people that you might not know their name. The reason I say those names is because some these names have gone on in politics and gone on in music and gone on to do these things. So they definitely knew what they were doing. And they were much older than me. Right. Lior must be way older than you or anyone like that. Yeah, just not just, you know, they were 20 years older than me, 15 years older than me.

[Emma Grede]

So what was it like mentally and emotionally? Because I think you sold the company around 2010. And to me, the baby fat name was synonymous with Kahmora Lee. Like, I thought you baby fat. Like, that's how we put it together.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, I remember when I did my first show and it was like this, like, spire with Emma Reed, and it was baby fat.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And I came in to look, and this was when I probably had DJ Cassidy or Ronson. We were going through the music, and I looked up and it said baby fat. And I'm like, oh. And I was like, it should say by Kimora Lee Simmons. And that was the logo. But it wasn't up on that wall from that time forward, you know, we had it and it made, like, a big deal. I learned to kind of take my seat at the table, if you would. Right. Don't you talk about that all the time?

[Emma Grede]

All the time.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And so it wasn't that I wasn't paying attention. I was paying attention so well, it was the fact that I wasn't privy to some of this information also because of the way that it started. The way that I started was under Fat Farm. That's a key point. Because everybody's always like, well, if she didn't have that, then she wouldn't have had the rest. And that's fair to say. But it's. What did I do once I got my foot in the door that no one did for me. But sometimes I learned. And this is another trick of the game, being in that room. It's not always that you got a chance to be in the room and be the biggest light and the biggest mouth and the brightest thinking. And I'm talking then 30 years ago, in a room full of men and bankers and people that say, this is great. We're gonna sell this. You're gonna get all this money. I didn't get all this money. But do you know who got all this money? Was my husband. And at that time, I was told, and I was raised and taught that that was good enough. My husband getting it was the same as me getting it, but it wasn't. And I did not learn that until later when other things started happening. And I said, oh, you know what? I don't wanna be here. I want Out, Out. Can I stand on my own two feet? Well, I built this and that. I did this. My kids. Well, no, no, you got this much of that. You got this much of that. When you start to go and look at things and try to split them up or get your business fairness, that's when you realize it's a little different. And it's different having a business and having a marriage.

[Emma Grede]

Exactly.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It's different having a business and having a relationship. It's different having a business and you're single, but you're sleeping with someone on the board. You know, there's many different kinds of things. I had a, which was my first child. Then came Ming, and I had a husband. And my husband was like a bigger than life force at the time. Right in his own right in terms of like music and everything that they were doing. Being the godfather of hip hop. So you kind of learn to take a seat, even if that seat was kind of shotgun and sometimes it was the back seat.

[Ashley McShan]

Well, this is what I love so

[Emma Grede]

much about Yukimura, because I think just that level of honesty and, you know, I think so many women find themselves in a similar position where they know that they are contributing in great ways, but they're not quite sure how to equate that contribution and what it's worth and how it kind of fits into the bigger scheme of what they're doing. And you're surrounded by people that seemingly no way better than you. And to insert yourself is an imposition. It is like, oh my goodness, like I don't really understand everything that's being said. And you know, my. My point of view in that is that nobody knows. Most of those people around there are just making it up. And actually you just having the audacity to sit at the table and take your rightful place when you're contributing in that way. That is the thing. And then being able to raise your hand and be like, hey, wait a minute, my contribution is worth X. It's really hard to measure that sometimes for yourself, but nobody is coming to do that for you. Correct. And I guess for you have learned that the hard way because you've kind of come full circle and come back for baby fat. Which I just was like, oh my God, that's the coolest thing ever.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Not only that, I've started other businesses.

[Emma Grede]

Oh.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And there's been a bunch right now about getting your structuring it the right way. Right. A lot of the things I've learned in my life and lessons that I've learned in my life I've learned from very great people who are most of the time men. A lot of the times they were women, but that came later. In the beginning, they were men.

[Emma Grede]

I could be really honest and say exactly the same. I think that men have an ease in which they share information because they do that all the time. They drop the numbers, they tell you who they did the deal with. They'll tell you the lawyer that brokered it. They'll tell you how much they paid the lawyer that brokered it. And there is just this ease of information. And one of the biggest reasons I started this podcast was so that we could start to have an ease of the information. And a mistake that you made could be something that somebody else who's sitting at home in a similar situation where they're no, their contribution is meaningful, that they can actually take their rightful seat and ask for what they need and not end up in the same situation.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And I've seen so many women that you would not believe. Women that we know, women that you and I know very, very well, women that I've known 20, 30 or so years, women that are like the most beautiful, the most successful, the sexiest women that you would know. These women are my friends. These women are my family. These women are my comrades. I can tell you crazy shit that every sing one of us has gone through with men in business. No matter how big and successful you seem, like you want things to do with the pitfall and some of the things. And that's why I always will be there to help the next woman, because there was nobody there to help me. Like that.

[Ashley McShan]

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[Emma Grede]

What is something that every founder that's building a brand needs to know before they start? That nobody tells you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Read the fine print. I think is a good one. We don't read enough of the fine print and it gets finer and finer and it's longer and longer and it's harder to read. But it's important. Even if it comes to something like the usage on your phone. Read the fine print. Read it. When you downloaded whatever app, read the fine print. Because in that app it probably took over your whole thing. It's probably spying on you and watching your whole family and you gave it permission. Read the fine print.

[Emma Grede]

Something you want to tell us, Gamora? Love what happened.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

We can go back through that later. The tech detect generation.

[Emma Grede]

I love that.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Read the fine print. No one's going to do it for you and what you think that you deserve or what you think you are owed. It comes down to the black and white of it. And a lot of women, those aforementioned women that I was talking about in the beginning, didn't have that fine print covered. They didn't have the right signatures.

[Emma Grede]

We don't necessarily Know what questions to ask. And I think that can sometimes be the problem. What was it like for you emotionally as you exited Baby Fat? You understood that you'd been given, you know, perhaps less than you were worth.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So when we sold the company, I stayed on as an officer of the company. So then that was still. I had a new contract. I stayed there for years. Russell was gone quite quickly after that for some other issues. So I became the head of Fat Fashions, the president and the CEO. And that was great. And then I stayed there for some years, quite a few years. And then when my contract was coming up again, I didn't renew. And then I went on and then that. I think they sold it after that. And then I went around because when I got it back, it was from probably one or two buyers, you know, later. And I went and started other.

[Emma Grede]

Want to get it back.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, here's the thing. I started other things along the way, like just fat, which is like a baby fat version. I worked with them when they started it, let's say that. And I was there as well, as a president and CEO, the creative director. So I realized that that niche for that kind of brand, I mean, I'm talking down to my pantone of pink, my script, my font, the fit of my clothes, the style of the shoe or the pump or whatever it is. Right. A brand DNA, I guess. Yes. And I realized that that brand DNA, this is years ago we're talking now, right? 10 years ago, maybe 15. You know, we're talking some. Not today. Just I'm realizing that that brand DNA didn't go away. I realized that there is a DNA there that I have used, that I have created, that other people have used. And so I think it was just the right. Right calling and timing. I don't know. Usually when you want your brand back, it's a little bit tricky because you're gonna end up paying too much and they're gonna get you for the nostalgia of your name or your parents name or your first pet dog, Sparky, whatever it was that you put into your business. And you cannot do that. You really do build these things up to let them go. Right. It's like letting your child go in the world. So getting it back was something that I knew I wanted, but I didn't know how. And it just took time and years.

[Emma Grede]

And you have it back now and

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I have it back now. And it's a little bit different now because. Right. You don't do now. It's more D2C, which I feel like, you know very well it's not so much retail. It's not brick and mortar, which means freestanding stores. You know, it used to be that you worked your way through the system through the buying and the selling, and then you end up on the floor of a department store, and then you sell off. Now, that sell off is lifestyle that has moved up. Right. Those retailers are, like, mainstream now. Things have changed, but it's also a resurgence of fashion and branding, which was another thing that we created at the time. Having the access to all of these artists and things. The idea of the branding. How do you use your eyeballs and your visibility to come and draw those people into something else you're doing?

[Ashley McShan]

I wanted to talk to you about

[Emma Grede]

your girls because you're all in the limelight, and I wonder, like, how you're thinking, like, how you teach them, how you talk to them about business. Is it a conversation that you have?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yes. My kids and I are very close. We talk every day. If they're traveling, of which now they're both traveling, they both graduated from college. Ming went to nyu. Yoki graduated from Harvard. Congratulations.

[Emma Grede]

Smart girls. Yeah.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

She got in, like, four years early. I think she was accepted at 18.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, that's crazy.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So she graduated Harvard at 18.

[Emma Grede]

Do you think you protect them from things that they've perhaps never needed to think about, or do they face very similar challenges?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No, a little bit of both. They definitely face their own challenges. I mean, you could look up and see them dating or doing businesses or doing their. I let them go. You don't have a choice because they're adults. Ming is 26 years old. Yoki's 23. They're old enough to think, like, I could do what I want, and you can't tell me, but, like, not old enough to, like, pay for all the mistakes that you could get into. So you need your mom.

[Emma Grede]

How is being a parent made you reflect on how you were treated in the industry back in the day?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

That's tricky. So from when I was in the business to when they were in a business, not was, like, we've gone through, like, movements, you know, we've gone through, like, me too. I didn't have any personal issues of my own, but obviously, people very close to me have. And in that all the time.

[Emma Grede]

Was that surprising to you?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Me too. The movement?

[Ashley McShan]

No.

[Emma Grede]

The groundswell around the people close to you, were you taken aback and surprised?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Well, no, because coming out of all some of these relationships, all of. I say all, but some of those big relationships in my life, I've always been pretty vocal about it. And I've always said things that I. About people that were around me, whether they were my friendly. I call them friendlies or not. You know, I've been pretty vocal. And I've grown up with some of these people. Most of these people. I'm being modest. I've grown up with all of these people. Most people, although I was very young on all of these lists and all of these things, I probably know those people. I'm looking at it like, you did it, you did it. And I told. But nobody was listening to me. Or sometimes they would, but they would brush it under the rug. It was different. Right? It's a patriarchal world that we live in. I don't wanna come here and sit here like I'm just bashing all the men, but I'm giving you the hierarchy and the structure in which we. So me yelling about, thinking someone is a freak or someone is a weirdo or someone did something, if it's not egregiously a something, no one's really listening to that. But I said it. You could go back and you could. Look, I've always tried to maintain what I thought and my honesty and my integrity of my version of seeing people around what I thought. But it was a little bit. When you say groundswell, it was like, I don't know, a tornado, like a tsunami or something. It wiped out so many people that we had so many guys of color, so many black people, a whole industry. It seemed like not everybody.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, a whole industry. And so many white people too. But yes, a lot of people.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

But of my, you know, crew. Of my crew of hip hop industry, of a certain genre of music.

[Emma Grede]

Well, I think that it's the entertainment industry. Entertainment in a really, really big way. And I think that for anyone that was around at that time, it was a moment and it was a moment of huge reflection. And, like, you know, I think that the ramifications and the ripple effects will be, you know, there forever. And listen, the world has changed for the better because of that movement. Like, I feel that certainly as a woman that we are far better off for that movement. And, you know, while there was, you know, people, I think, complain about there being collateral damage, but all the best moves.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

There's collateral damage, but there's collateral damage on both sides. And I know women, many, many women that were involved on the upside and the down, and I know men that were involved on the upside and the down, both sides, on the side of an Acute as an accuser and as a victim on both sides. I've known lots of people, I've seen people and I've said that story is not quite accurate. We were all there but go off. And there's other people that I have said that story is very mild, you know good and damn well with. So sit down and lick your wounds before something else happens. Right. So it's been a. It's been some intense moments of navigating to say the least.

[Emma Grede]

I feel like that's an understatement and we should leave it there.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Exactly. Understatement of fear.

[Emma Grede]

One of the things that I was like, literally, I mean, we were all talking about it recently was this America's Next Top Model doc and you weren't part of it. And I was like, I don't know why, but what do you mean you don't.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I don't know why I wasn't part of the doc.

[Emma Grede]

Were you not asked to be?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No, no. What? I was in it though.

[Emma Grede]

Yes, but like I imagined that you would be like a talking head.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

And Tyra is one of my kids godmothers as well. Although we haven't talked in quite a long time. But we used to be very, very close. I started Top Model with her. I was on the first season of Top Model.

[Emma Grede]

I mean, this is what I know. I almost had to check myself.

[Ashley McShan]

I was like, was I confused?

[Emma Grede]

Was I living in any.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I was into Dr.

[Emma Grede]

But you were.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I'm sure I was.

[Emma Grede]

You were kind of in the documentary. But I wanted to see you like sitting there like this now, like telling me what was what.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, yeah, I don't know about that because I think some of the other people who are there dealing with the brand probably don't want to see this right here because maybe it's too, I don't know, close for comfort. I'm not really sure. You have to ask them that. Oh, okay. It's really weird. I'm not sure it was weird. It was weird. I heard a lot about it, but I didn't see it.

[Emma Grede]

Do you think that that was just like a portrait of a moment in time? Do you believe that? Like, we're being too sensitive now. What's, what's your thought on your takeout? Cause you're always so vocal.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It was a crazy moment in time. I think that a lot of the things they talk about in it and that's probably why they don't call me because I'm not bound by anything and I'm definitely gonna say what I think a lot of them are bound by stuff when you do that. But a lot of what was portrayed leading up to this documentary. I'm not talking about the documentary. I'm talking about all of the talk associated with leading up to this and about. About the industry and the models and the brand were true, were very true. And we lived through that, like, treacherous moments, you know, with models. But then they had, I guess, this documentary that kind of all of these things culminated. I don't think people were being too serious, I mean, too sensitive about it. I think it was, you know, mostly true. And I feel like a lot of the essence of that was harnessed into making this documentary. But to me it looks like a double edged, the whole making of that thing. And I think probably they're gonna do another season or something like that. So one thing's gonna lead into the, you know, the next. I think it's great branding.

[Emma Grede]

Maybe you could go in season two.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

That's like season 32. I don't even know what season that is. They've been around for a very long time. But it was treacherous and it was a modeling time. I mean, these were girls that were young girls that wanted a contract. It was tv, the dawn of putting any type of modeling competition like that on tv.

[Emma Grede]

Yes.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So it was a lot of the perfect storm of a lot of things,

[Ashley McShan]

but it was a hu.

[Emma Grede]

Why did you not go back and do another season?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I talked with them about going back a lot, A lot. And I just feel like over the years we could never get it, you know, together. Even as it changed networks and the brand would say, like, you have to go and get kimora.

[Emma Grede]

We wanted you in there. We all wanted to see you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Maybe in the future. You never, never know. But I'll say that mean I'm not gonna like break. I feel like my thing is like the editing and the cuts. You know what I mean? I'm trying to tell the girls, but like, have a little bit of heart about it.

[Emma Grede]

Have a little bit of heart.

[Ashley McShan]

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[Emma Grede]

So before we wrap, a quick reminder that Start With Yourself is available for pre order and tickets for the live shows are available now. Starting April 15th, we're coming to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, D.C. boston, Atlanta and London. Visit emmigree.com for tickets and full tour details. I cannot wait.

[Ashley McShan]

Okay, before we wrap up, I want to just make sure we touch on

[Emma Grede]

my favorite subject, which is money. I want to talk to you about the lessons that you've learned over the years because you've spoken really honestly and frankly about what you perhaps should have got and you didn't for a myriad of different reasons. How do you think about money? Money now in your life? What lessons have you learned and how have you kind of developed your understanding around money and what you should get?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

That's a lot. It's a lot about. That's a discussion about having your seat at the table. Not being afraid to pull up and present yourself and your ideas and own them as yours. Not being afraid to pull that seat back and have it and sit down. I've learned just so much. I've been at this a long, long time. Like decades, if you count how long I've been modeling. I'm probably one of the ones that have been around the longest, if how long. My little brand. My little brand. Because I'm not Ralph Lauren. Right. It's been going on 30 years, I think.

[Emma Grede]

Did you make enough money, given your contribution over all of these years and decades?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Definitely. I feel like not. But I will say that most of the people that I've done business with in the past that I thought maybe got way more than me at the time, and we all chose to do what we. Whatever we did. My thing was always building and investing because I. I'm a mom. I am better off than almost all of those people now, exponentially. Why is that? I think they made different decisions in life, whereas I was always more of a protector. And like, you know what they say about a woman? Like, if you give us a house, we'll make a home. If you give us a seed, we'll make a baby, we'll make a family, we'll multiply that. I was busy multiplying and saving and investing. I did that by investing all of my businesses. I'm a big shareholder in. Cause it's public in Celsius. Or we have Rockstar, we have drinks. I have skincare, hair brands. Those are mine. And I learned, I think about the power of money, but investments, those are investments that I.

[Emma Grede]

Who taught you that?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, wow. I learned that by trial and error. I learned by all of the things that we just said, all the guys and all the people that have taken advantage of me. I remember once when I was younger to early twenties, my partner mate at the time, which you can figure out who that was because we did the names came in and said, okay, you have to get a lawyer. We have to talk about some of these things. When you find that lawyer, here's my lawyer. And, you know, you can call them up. And then we have to talk about some things, contract things. And I was like, okay, I had no clue. Contract things. I looked at the lawyer And I was like, who is this lawyer? This lawyer at the time came from one of our really big prominent friends, had given them this lawyer. I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to discuss. And so I called, called the prominent friend's wife because I didn't know. So you got this lawyer. I'll tell you who it was. It was from Donald Trump.

[Emma Grede]

Donna, thank you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Donald gave us this lawyer.

[Ashley McShan]

Oh, I got.

[Emma Grede]

Come on.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Donald gave us this lawyer. Okay. Years ago, not me. He gave it to my ex to rest. He comes and says, yeah, you have to have a lawyer. You have to go get this to talk about xyz.

[Emma Grede]

So you call who Melania?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

No, this was years ago.

[Emma Grede]

This is Ms. Ivana.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I know all the wives, all the children, all the marriage marriages, you know, you've been around.

[Ashley McShan]

Okay.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I have been with many, with several presidents and several, many. It transcends the sides and the teams and the parties and it transcends a lot. You can Google, a quick Google search will show you that everybody knows everybody.

[Emma Grede]

We know you were there.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So. Yeah. And it also show you that you can have friends or friendlies and they don't necessarily do all of the things right in the public eye that you think they should or that they set up they would in the private sector. Right. It's different.

[Emma Grede]

No doubt.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So I called Ivana and she has this accent and she says, darling, don't worry. Who is this lawyer? He'll give you. She looks at the and she says, oh, I know this lawyer. He was there when we got married. I will give you my lawyer. It's so and so that's the lawyer who works with this lawyer all the time on the other side. So I took my lawyer back. I went and hired the lawyer and I went back and I gave him the lawyer. I got so many phone calls, okay, from my ex at the time and so many other people that said, what in the hell are you doing? Do you know the lawyer that you got? You know how expensive this is? Do you know what all they're going to put us through, arguing back and forth over the terms of this contract that I didn't even know I had to do. Why would you do that? Where would you get this person? How did you even do this?

[Emma Grede]

And I said, what was this contract for?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I was young, I was not married at the time. It was a last minute contract that someone comes in and says, you have to sign this.

[Ashley McShan]

What did you you do?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It was a prenup that I didn't know I needed that. I had. And when I divorced, you could go and see my. My divorce records are filed in the state of down at the courts. You can see I got nothing from this man. When I got a divorce, did you not.

[Emma Grede]

Did you keep the lawyer?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I had the lawyer. I know the lawyer to this day.

[Emma Grede]

The point didn't do such a deal that you ended up with all of this.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

They didn't do a deal, but I didn't get anything out of it. I didn't get payments. I didn't get spousal support. I did get. Get child support. That's very public, but that's it. And I only got that sometimes. I didn't get that all the time. But the point is, he came in screaming, livid. I was so upset. He was so upset, saying, why would you get this lawyer? And that's the point of what I was this long story of me coming to tell you. I did not know you got a lawyer. You told me the lawyer came from so and so. All I knew was to go to so and so's counterpart and get another lawyer recommending. So the question was, how did you learn? And then these lessons that we've worked

[Emma Grede]

our way through, I guess it was the fucking hard way.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I always learned by my counterparts, which are men, and they're not always the most scrupulous, but I've navigated my way just to kind of do a quid pro quo or even just kind of the whole, you know, they say, 10 toes down, I've had to hang on 10 toes down. And I learn every time, okay, if they. They do this, you do this. And I've also learned lots of times in the business, every single time that I did something that someone taught me, I was a bitch. I was impossible. Women don't do that. You are costing too much. Why would you do this? But I learned it from them. Them meaning the men, them meaning the partner, them meaning the husband, whoever it was at the time, the senator, the this, the that. I learned it from someone else. And then when I came around, they're always yelling about, why would you do this? This costs. This is overkill. So you were gonna overkill me? And what was I gonna do? Just sign on the dotted line, lie down? So that's why I said, read the fine print. And that's why I say, even though I've gone through so. I've been through so many experiences with these people and these guys, I also wouldn't have it any other way. I've had the best Teachers in some of these guys, and some of them have not been so scrupulous. That, too, has been a teacher for me. And some of the lessons that I've learned and everybody knows that everybody knows now, like, don't mess with Kimora. She's gonna come in and tell you how it is.

[Emma Grede]

Oh, I think that's your reputation for sure.

[Ashley McShan]

For sure.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I've learned it the hard way, and I've learned it from being, you know, BSD through so much that you have to eventually speak up and say, I'm not going to take that.

[Emma Grede]

Has it hardened you, do you think?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, my gosh, I am, yes. But I am a Taurus, so I think I have a hard shell. And inside, if you're able to get in there, is a softer.

[Emma Grede]

But it takes a bit, right? It's not like that's why I've been

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

married several times and I have all my kids. I believe. I try again. If you asked me to marry you right now, Emma, I would say yes. You're married already, but I would say yes.

[Emma Grede]

I'll send you my lawyer's details.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

You know. You know I would. I try and I believe in it. And then sometimes things come up and it's okay. Don't be afraid to restart. Don't be afraid. And I've had this conversation with many, many of our friends that are good friends in common. It's okay. It's okay that you thought you had the relationship of life. Honey, drop it on the floor and drop him to drop it. Don't be afraid of you know your mistakes and know what you're gonna tolerate. And another thing. You will be surprised how many times to you, it's to you how it feels. Because to you, an affair might be a big deal, and to your neighbor, it might not. Different women accept different things. I learned early on when I wasn't going to accept. And so I had to get the hell out. I had to, like, move the hell around. Everyone doesn't feel like that. Some people, I'm like, can you. Do you understand that he was doing all of this. Look at all these pictures. And they're like, my dear call. I've learned the hard way through many of these. Many of these lessons. I love them all. I'm very, very thankful. I'm very, very humbled. Humble. I'm grateful. I wouldn't have it any other way. And one thing about Kimora, in all of that reputation, they don't say Kimora's a liar. No, they don't say Kimora's a liar.

[Emma Grede]

No, they don't.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

So if Kimora said you stole it or Kimora said you cheated it, you cheated it. And Kimora has receipts. I'm the queen. I'm the queen of receipts, and so are some of our friends. And you know what I mean, right? You got to see them.

[Emma Grede]

You ain't nothing without documentary makers. Don't play with us. You keep the facts, you keep the files, you keep on. And you.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I learned. And I learned when to let that go, and I learned when to hold on. Right? You learn these things. Just keep it tucked away in your pocket.

[Emma Grede]

I'm interested to understand what having, like, this big life and this big career that you've had for so long now,

[Ashley McShan]

like, what does success even feel like

[Emma Grede]

to you in this chapter of your life?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It's hard to measure, like, success. I think it is when other people come up to me and say, you've made a difference in my life or,

[Emma Grede]

I read your book.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I made a book, Fabulosity, years ago, and it has so much of me in it and all of my anecdotes and all these things. When someone says, I read your book, I saw your show, I heard, you know, this interview that you did, and it helped me start a business, get out of an abusive relationship, get out of an unfair, unjust situation, start a new business, start a new relationship, get married, get out of a marriage, whatever these things are. When you hear of other people that have taken your tales and your journey and have made a better life for themself, I think that's a good way to measure success. Like, you know, we've made it. And I can name a lot of people. I could name a lot of women that have, like. Like my baby fat tattoo. I think that's success to me. That's how I measure it. My kids, when I see my kids are happy and healthy and thriving, if I can help the next person do that, and I see a lot of that in you, if I could help the next person, that is success.

[Emma Grede]

I wonder what you aspire to now.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I aspire to have peace. I aspire to have happiness. And I have these things. But it's a job. It's an effort. It takes an effort. Right. It's not just given to you that you would have peace. It's not just given that. That you would have stillness. It's not just given that you would have clarity. You have to work on some of these things, especially in the chaos that we live in. So I think I aspire to have Those things, and I'm building those things for myself. I aspire to have a big family. I came from a small family. I think that's why I have so many kids. I aspire to leave this place a better place than I found it. And I feel like my life and just my being is absolutely aspirational. Right. The fact that my mom is an immigrant, she was not born in this country. No one else in my family was on my mom's side, was from here. The idea that you can come, that you can have nothing. And this is a story that we don't talk about now. We don't talk about now how you can make it when you had nothing. We don't talk about the immigrant families that made it. Like now. That's not a popular topic, but it's my topic. The fact that you can make something out of nothing, Remember that and remember this place that we. Yes, it takes all of us and we have to work together and do all these things. But it was built on the backs of brown people, people that look like me and you. Don't be afraid to take your place. Don't let somebody else erase your book. Don't let somebody else rewrite your history. I'm very vocal about that. And I'm not, like, overly an activist. I need to fight everything and everybody. But if you say something I don't agree with, and we just talked about lots of these people. Where are my friendlies? I don't have a problem telling you that you said that, and that was screwed up. I don't have a problem telling you that that person that you're talking about, that person over there, is the same as my mom, my family. Are you sure you're clear about what you're saying? Okay. You did that just on the stage and in the moment. Watch yourself. I don't have a problem saying that, but so many people do. So I think take every day as it comes, but know where you came from and where you're going. And don't be afraid to embrace, you know, your journey, your imperfections, but your history, because that's how you know where you're going. They definitely say that. It's like one of those cliche things, but it's true.

[Emma Grede]

It's so true. Okay, I'm moving to rapid fire. The first thing you do in the

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

morning, drink water for blood flow. It thins your. Gets your blood going. And then I reach for my phone, which is terrible. I didn't want to say that, but that's the truth. That's all right.

[Emma Grede]

You're true fell last thing you do at night.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Oh, the last thing I do at night? Reflect. I guess that's like prayer. I reflect on my life. What you want it to be. How you go to sleep. What you are taking into that other realm of sleep and beyond is it really sticks with and you can really do magical things in that time. So I think I reflect.

[Emma Grede]

What's the best business advice you've ever ignored for a good reason?

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Quite a few times I have ignored. You should do that. It's going to make you a lot of money. And it just wasn't the right fit. It wasn't the right time and it was a mess in the end. I've never regretted it.

[Emma Grede]

A full day with no makeup or a full day in flats.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

A full day with no makeup. I don't wear makeup unless I'm working. But my heels I kind of love.

[Emma Grede]

Yeah, you're a heel girl.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I do wear flats though, but. But I love my heels.

[Ashley McShan]

Tell me about one of the wildest

[Emma Grede]

days in your life using one word. Who wrote these questions? This is a new one. Using one word. Tell us about the wildest day in your life.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Fucked. Who thought of that? I don't know. That's the best answer and I want it to be like fucking chaotic. Fucking hilarious. Just like how fucking in a word. One word. That's for the good and bad. That one.

[Emma Grede]

Just listen. I'm fully taking it.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Don't judge. Don't judge.

[Emma Grede]

Zero judge.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

We write in and we don't judge.

[Emma Grede]

Okay, last question. Serious question. What is a book that changed your

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

life so many a book. The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Don't Believe Everything youg think is a more modern one. Easy, easy. Read.

[Ashley McShan]

Power of now is like an all

[Emma Grede]

time, you know, great one.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

I remember back then Eckhart was our friend and we took Eckhart to Oprah and then she became his guru and then she did like a book club and she did all these things and then he blew up.

[Emma Grede]

But I mean that's how I discovered

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

him, through Oprah's transformation.

[Emma Grede]

You introduced himself to Eckhart a thousand percent.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Yeah.

[Emma Grede]

Again, all roads lead back to Koruma.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

It was Russell's guru. It was our guru at the time. And he was a transformational person. So simple, but so transformational. So genius. He made that introduction. There you go.

[Ashley McShan]

I'll take that one.

[Emma Grede]

Amazing.

[Ashley McShan]

Kimora.

[Emma Grede]

Thank you so much.

[Kimora Lee Simmons]

Thank you for having me. Ella.

[Emma Grede]

Just mesmerizing.

[Ashley McShan]

If you're loving this podcast, be sure

[Emma Grede]

to click Follow on your favorite listening platform.

[Ashley McShan]

While you're there, give us a review

[Emma Grede]

and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. You'll be so grateful.

[Ashley McShan]

Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy.

[Emma Grede]

I'm your host Emma Greed, executive producer Ashley McShan, Derek Brown and me.

[Ashley McShan]

Our executive producers from Audacy are Leah

[Emma Grede]

Rees, Dennis, Arsha Saludja, Lauren Legrasso, Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our Senior Producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz Angela Peluso is our booker.

[Ashley McShan]

Original music by Charles Black Video production

[Emma Grede]

by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele and Carlos Delgado Social media by Olivia Homan, Kathryn Bale Special thanks to Brittany

[Ashley McShan]

Smith, Sydney Ford, My teams at the

[Emma Grede]

lead company and WME Maura Curran, Josephina

[Ashley McShan]

Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson,

[Emma Grede]

Rose, Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira.

[Ashley McShan]

If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed.

[Emma Grede]

Greed is spelled G R E D E. That's Aspire A S P I R E with Emma Greed.

[Ashley McShan]

Or you can submit a question to me on my website Emagreed me.

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