B (4:38)

Wow.

A (4:39)

Yeah.

B (4:39)

I mean, that's pretty powerful stuff.

A (4:41)

Yeah.

B (4:41)

And so what happened from there? Because I kind of tracked your career, which is so interesting. And I think there's such a big difference between knowing about money and feeling confident with money. And it's interesting that, that exposure, because for some people, that can lead to such kind of like an inability to process money. Like you've got all of These relationships that your parents hold of money and you take those on as your own. But you kind of did something very different, like you decided to learn about it. And I'm like, I'm just very curious as to where that part of you comes from.

A (5:14)

I think it just came because of being in the right place at the right time, if I'm honest. My parents instilled in me very early that in this country, education was really our biggest shot at socioeconomic mobility. If I wanted to have a great life, I was gonna have to be a really good student. And I was. I was the valedictorian of my high school. I end up going to the University of Chicago. It's an incredibly competitive institution. And junior year rolls around and I'm like, oh no, what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? I look around and a lot of my peers were recruiting for Wall street jobs. I want to sit here and tell you, it was this amazing vision that came to me. No, I literally was just like, well, if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. And so I start doing the exact same things because I'm not a leader, I'm a follower. And I start interviewing. I end up having the good fortune of getting an internship at JP Morgan on the equities desk as a trader. And after that summer, it was crazy. It's an incredibly competitive program. You get hired with a number of other interns, but you all know there's only one full time seat. So me and two other boys were sitting there. We're basically trying to elbow each other out for this seat. It became clear halfway through the summer that they weren't really gonna work on the desk. They bring in two more interns. So I'm now competing with two different people. At the end of the summer, five interns rotated through that desk, and I was the only one who got that final offer. And that's what we talk about Wall Street. Like, you eat what you kill. It's a dog eat dog world. I got that job and it felt like all of the puzzle pieces clicked into place. Not only was I going to get that sexy job where I got to live in New York City and make good money, really good money, but I also ended up getting a mentor. And I think that is truly the greatest thing that working on Wall street ever gave me. My first manager, she was an Asian American woman. I worked with 30 plus other white men and her. And she was the first rich Asian woman I had ever seen in my entire Life.

B (7:10)

Oh, it's amazing.

A (7:11)

And she would walk into the office with a new designer bag every day. She had these Gucci stilettos that would click, clack on the marble. And she owned her apartment. She had a dog. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to have a dog in New York City? I knew she had money. And for the first time, I saw a lived reality where I got to be a winner. And that only furthered my desire. And she took me under her wing, taught me so many things that I know now. But I feel so grateful, because without her, I don't know if I would have this story.

B (7:41)

Do you remember how much money you were making in that first job?

A (7:44)

First job, I believe my base salary was 80 or $85,000. And the first bonus I got was 10,000, so it's a little under six figures, but to me, it felt like a lifetime's worth of money. I'd never seen that kind of.

B (7:59)

Course not. Never ever. All right, so you're at J.P. morgan. At some point, you move, and you end up at buzzfeed in some kind of sales role, and you massively are able to, like, up your sal. The stakes get kind of high.

A (8:11)

You know, When I left J.P. morgan, I got into a huge fight with my parents because they could no longer brag to the aunties on WeChat about me working at JP Morgan. And they were so against it. They were like, we got you this amazing education, and now you're gonna go, what, like, write quizzes for a living? Cause I didn't Even know what BuzzFeed was, but write quizzes.

B (8:30)

I love it.

A (8:31)

What kind of cheese are you? And it was so silly. But ultimately, it ended up being the right move. And When I left BuzzFeed, I had made $625,000 that year.

B (8:42)

Wow.

A (8:43)

And that's a ton of money.

B (8:44)

Ton of money. Because we're going back, what, 10, 10 years ago?

A (8:48)

This was six years after graduation, probably 2022. I was making killer money. I'm feeling really confident now in my finances because not only did I get the education.

B (9:01)

You were 22. Sorry, just to be clear. 2022.

A (9:04)

This is 2022.

B (9:04)

2022. I was

A (9:07)

27. Ish. 26. 27. Doing the quick math there. But, you know, I just felt like when I got into this role and it became a sales role, it really was like, if I can write one more email, if I can out hustle the person sitting next to me, if I can stay just an hour later, I will make more Money. There was a direct correlation with how hard I worked, with what I got paid, and I loved that because I felt like I had this confidence to be able to take a bet on myself, and it ended up being the right move. I made all of that money, especially it came in chunky commission payments. It was a sales job. That's essentially what helped me buy my first home. It's really what helped me invest a ton into the market, and it has changed the trajectory of my life.

B (9:51)

Did you enjoy that job?

A (9:53)

I loved it.

B (9:54)

You did?

A (9:54)

I really did.

B (9:55)

So you were making money, but you're also loving what you did?

A (9:58)

I think I'm very much someone who loves what I'm good at. So, like, I like that feedback loop of winning. So there was a tv, like, system all around the office, and every time you closed a deal, you had a deal song that would play.

B (10:13)

What was your song?

A (10:14)

I can't even remember.

B (10:15)

Come on.

A (10:16)

It was probably like Money by Cardi B. That works. Yeah, that works. But, you know, every time you close a deal, your song would play. And I remember there was one season, there was one quarter where I was basically closing a deal a day, and people were like, dude, you need to change your song.

B (10:31)

Like, we don't want to. We're done with that song.

A (10:33)

Yeah, we're like, we're done with this.

B (10:34)

You're like, come on, it's Cardi.

A (10:35)

We're going. And I felt so proud.

B (10:37)

Yeah, damn right you did.

A (10:38)

Because I could point to a scoreboard and say, I win. And I love that. I'm competitive.

B (10:44)

You are super competitive.

A (10:45)

I'm an air niche.

B (10:46)

How can I not be? I found it so interesting, though, because again, we're here to talk about money. And I often complain on this podcast that I find it quite difficult to draw people into the conversation of money. How do you think? Especially now that you've been been working in this space for so long and going back to kind of those early days when you were, you know, surrounded mostly by guys at JP Morgan. How much do you think has changed, especially as we start talking about women and finances? What are the differences that you see now?

A (11:15)

You know, I think from then to now, we have really democratized the financial conversation because social media, you know, you see people talking about loud budgeting or these trends of like, oh, I want a provider, man. I have decided that I want a soft girl life. Like, I need to have certain things in my life to feel happy. This type of financial commitment. We didn't have those conversations even a decade ago. When I started my career, I do think that there are still a lot of taboos around talking about money. But I encourage everyone who feels awkward about it to think about it this way. Why is it weird that two women like us are having this conversation and I'm giving you numbers versus imagine you're at a country club. Two gentlemen, both maybe investors, maybe hedge fund managers, whatever. They're teeing off. They've got a cigar in hand. They're talking about their portfolios. They're talking about what their mortgage rates are and who did their mortgage at what bank. They're talking about what their kids private school tuition costs. Why is it weird for us but not for them?

B (12:18)

You tell me. Because I hear these conversations every day. Every day I hear my husband on the phone, and he's swooping and swatching information, and he's giving tips, and they're giving tips back, and they're, you know, trading contacts. And yet I so seldomly have similar conversations with my girlfriends. And in fact, I think I've become the person in my circle that people call when they want to have that conversation, when they've made a bit of money and they need a recommendation or they're thinking about investing. Because people know that I speak about it very freely. I have nothing to hide. And I'm really happy to have the conversation and to share my information.

A (12:55)

But can I tell you where that comes from? Let's talk about it.

B (12:58)

Oh, yes. Yes, you're. I'm right there with you.

A (13:01)

Because men have told. Have been told their entire lives that, like, you should grow your power. You are allowed to have these conversations. But there are actually fewer women CEOs in the Fortune 500 than there are guys named John. You don't see John's being like, oh, no, like, there's another John CEO. I can't be one. But we as women have been told that we have to be the only one, the only token woman CEO, the only winner, and that there's not enough white space for all of us to be in the C Suite. You should feel lucky that they picked you. Instead of arguing with other women, competing with them, trying to outdo them, we'd all be better off just trying to grab a larger slice of the pie from the gentleman. If we can have more seats in the C Suite, if we can have more. More women founders, more women CEOs, we don't have to feel that way. We get to do the exact same thing they do. We get to swap notes, we get to share. We get to have These conversations because it's very much, you scratch my back, I scratch yours. But you can't be scratching other people's backs if we don't all come from positions of power.

B (14:06)

So how do you think about opening up these types of conversations? When you think about how you and your friends talk, what is the big difference and how do you encourage people to actually get on the same wavelength as you are now?

A (14:20)

You know, I think it has to be a two way street. There are certainly people in your life that you have money conversations with and they are going to use it as a fact finding mission to then twist the knife. They are going to ask you to borrow money, they are going to try to get ahead of you. They want to see you do well, but not better than them. They are going to use it as a way to hold it against you. You have to be able to identify who those people are. But then there's the alternative.

B (14:43)

There's the alternative.

A (14:44)

There's the alternative. I'll give you an example. When I was at Buzzfeed, I had a girl that I was best friends with, she worked on the same team as me, sat right next to me. I called her my work wife and it was right before end of year reviews. And I was like, I need to figure out what I can ask for in a raise. So I grab her arm, I drag her to the bathroom, I'm like, tell me how much you make. And she was like, what? I'm like, okay, I'm going in for my end of year review. I just need a benchmark to see what I could even be asking for. And she's a couple years older than me. So she tells me what she makes. I'm like, okay, cool, that's good information. I go, I have my end of year review and I'm like, with the amount of work and success that I brought to the team this year, I believe a raise of XYZ is commensurate. I would like my all in compensation to be this. I stop talking, I end up basically getting what I want. So then I get back to my desk, I grab her by the arm, we go to the bathroom. I'm like, okay, they gave me this. But you're older than me, you have more experience for me and you close more deals than I did. This is what you need to be asking for. She goes, hear you loud and clear. She goes into her meeting, we both end up getting paid more. It's not competitive. No. And we just saw both of us do better because we shared that Information,

B (15:54)

it's a win win. And I feel like it's always a win win. And we have to get out of the scarcity mindset because it's only hurting us. I speak to so many people that, like, I just have nobody that I can speak to. And I'm like, speak to your friends, speak to your mother, speak to whoever is in your vicinity. Because everyone has something that they can share that's going to be like a complete eye opener to you and maybe

A (16:17)

even someone not in your close vicinity. I've actually found, as a colleague, Most of the BFFs are actually more comfortable sharing information with each other than they are with their best friend because they feel like, okay, well, I live in Denver, you live in Boston. We're never going to be competing for the same job. We're never competing for the same, you know, apartment. I'll tell you what I do. Easy enough, easy enough.

B (16:41)

So let's talk about stability. It's kind of feels like such a cornerstone of the way you speak about financial literacy and understanding. And there's something, you know, you talk about wealth building, starting with stability. Can you just like double down on that a bit for me?

A (16:56)

Yeah. You can't build a home on sand, you gotta build a home on cement, right? And so for me, thinking about what it's all for, what's the purpose, what's the point? Financial literacy should all start from a base of stability. This means having an emergency fund. Typically, I recommend three to six months of living expenses if you're single, six to 12 if you are ahead of a household. It's paying down high interest rate debt. What I'm really talking about is credit cards. Those can compound super, super fast. But if you've got student loans or maybe even a mortgage, like, those aren't nearly as quickly growing. It's all about setting healthy boundaries. I know so many people, and especially in immigrant communities, the second you make it big, the second you make six figures, everybody and your uncle are calling you, being like, emma, can I have a small business loan of $500,000? And you're like, what? What do you mean?

B (17:51)

And I think I have no idea what you're talking about, Vivi. It's never happened.

A (17:54)

You're like, completely can't relate to that. But it's crazy, right? Because people want to drag onto your coattails. But what I encourage people to do is make sure that you are at a place of stability already so that you can lower the rope and pull people up, but not that you're Being dragged down.

B (18:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think this is really important. And I even like to start, like one step ahead of this, because before stability, you have to have a vision for yourself. Right? And I feel like so many people are like, I want to be rich. I want to have, you know, this, you know, whatever it might be that's in your mind's eye. But I feel like having real specificity, like, what does that mean to you? And I feel like one of the best things that I did when I was very, very young was have, like, real specificity. I was like, I need to get out of this situation, of living in this place, and I would really, really like to do that. And I needed a certain baseline salary. At the time it was £65,000. I was like, I need to get to 65. Because for this rental amount in this type of area, like, that's just, that's just what you need. That's just what you can have. Do you often find that when you're talking to people, they haven't, you know, they've got like these ideas and these things that they say, but it's just not, like it's not there. It's not concrete.

A (19:07)

And that's why I say everybody needs to set smart goals. So smart stands for things specific, measurable.

B (19:15)

Oh, yeah.

A (19:15)

You have to make sure that it's actionable, realistic and time bound. To your point of I need to make $65,000. That's very specific. That's a number. So when people are talking about I have a vision for my life, I'm like, okay, so what is the specific goal you want? To open an Etsy store in three months. So we have to make sure that it's measurable. It's like, how do we make sure we can actually assess whether or not you succeeded or closed? So maybe the Etsy store has to have a revenue number that we have to hit. Actionable. This can't be something that happens to you. It has to be something that you control. We gotta do it ourselves. So we have to do something, and you have to be able to do an action item. Realistic. Come on, we're not going to become billionaires tomorrow, but we could perhaps become millionaires in five years time. I don't see why that would be so unachievable. And time bound is the most important one. If you say, this is my goal, this is my goal and you've set it for the past 10 years, you say it every single New Year's, it's not happening. Tell yourself how much time you have? You have three months to do this one thing, you have six months to do this next thing, and you have one year to make the whole thing happen. When you write it out, when you tell a friend, you are that much more likely to actually accomplish it.

B (20:28)

Yeah, I really, truly believe that. What do you say to people that would struggle with even the jumping off point, like the stability piece? If you're living paycheck to paycheck, how do you even get to a place where you're stable?

A (20:41)

Well, I don't want to sound so tone deaf as to say that you can budget your way out of poverty or, you know, invest your way out of a paycheck to paycheck lifestyle, but if you are willing to put yourself in a place of discomfort for a temporary period of time. I am talking about being exhausted every single night. You are going to be so tired, you are gonna literally be asleep before your head even hits the pillow. But pick up that second job. Get that side hustle. Maybe you need to just be putting extra hours at your current job and that way at the end of the year you can demand that raise and promotion and frankly, if they're not gonna give it to you, someone else will. But. But it's a very simple equation to getting what you want and making more money. You have to increase the amount coming in, you have to decrease the amount going out, and you have to invest everything in between. And for most people, the easiest thing to do is to increase what's coming in because at a certain point, you can't cut that much more out before you're like, I'm just not eating or I'm just not living my life with any joy. It's simple. But it's the discipline that is required to do it day in and day out that is the challenging part.

B (21:48)

Absolutely. But don't you think that most of us have been through. And this is where I think it's really important to have a level of honesty around this. We all had those times. I feel like for maybe six years in my life, I lived doing kind of, you know, work that was massively unenjoyable, Working way too hard, too many hours, with seldom vacations, and not that much great stuff going on. But it was a period of time like hustle.

A (22:16)

Can I tell you a quote that completely rewired my brain?

B (22:18)

Please.

A (22:19)

If you are not willing to make sacrifices for your dream, the dream is what you have to sacrifice.

B (22:25)

End of.

A (22:26)

I actually call them my peanut butter jelly days because, oh, it's so real, by the way. Like, people think, oh, you had a Wall street job. Everything must have been so amazing, let me tell you. Let me set a scene of what my life actually looked like. Okay? I was waking up at 5am I was in the office by 5:45. I probably didn't leave the office until 6:30 or 7. On many nights I had client events. So then I had to be out with them talking, schmoozing until 9 or 10. I lived in a studio apartment with another girl. Like, there was no flex wall in between our beds. It was just a glorified dorm room.

B (22:58)

I love this 600 square feet. You're working at J.P. morgan. Your family are out here boasting about you.

A (23:02)

I'm in a studio.

B (23:03)

You're eating peanut butter and jelly.

A (23:05)

Peanut butter and jelly. I remember exactly. I remember opening my fridge and being like, what is in here? There was like a bushel of green grapes, a couple Gatorades and bread and peanut butter and jelly. And that was it.

B (23:17)

Oh, yeah.

A (23:18)

And it was because if I wanted to actually get to where I needed to be, I needed to be making sacrifices. And it's not fair. I wish. I wish I could have been born into generational wealth. Can I tell you how easy that would have been? How amazing?

B (23:32)

Would it be nice? Would it be nice for all of us? But sacrifices are really real. And I don't think sacrifices necessarily stop. I looked at something that you posted the other day that was about. About you, like, not buying a Birkin.

A (23:43)

Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

B (23:46)

But it's interesting because I think everybody looks at you now and would never imagine that you're still here making sacrifices for the life that you ultimately want to live.

A (23:56)

Like, I can sit here and make a joke. Like, I want a Birkin. I would love a 2 tone AP watch. I would love to be able to drive an Aston Martin. I want all of those things. I'm not immune to the Instagram ads.

B (24:08)

Okay.

A (24:09)

But I also want to retire my parents. I also want to be able to purchase a single family home with my husband. I also want to be able to be setting money aside into 529 accounts for future children. I want to be able to leave a legacy behind. Those don't really translate as well into the in feed grid, but not so much. Not so much.

B (24:32)

Just like the peanut butter and jelly eating doesn't.

A (24:34)

It ain't sexy. It's not.

B (24:36)

I love that you had those years. I had exactly the same. But mine was Jacob's cream crackers and A block of cheese that tells you a lot about my savory tendencies. Or a baguette. Cause you could get so much bread for 99 pence. But that was it. That was just the reality of what you did to get through the day. And it doesn't last forever. But I love this idea of still making sacrifices. You still have a plan, you have a way that you want to live, and a bunch of goals and things that you want to do, and you make sacrifices for them every single day.

A (25:08)

I mean, even now, I see you making sacrifices all the time.

B (25:11)

All the time.

A (25:11)

Whether it's, hey, I have to be away from my family to run my business. I have to be away from my business to run my family. Like, every day, you have to make a choice.

B (25:20)

I want to talk to you about this idea of discipline and intention and goal setting and thinking long term. And just to understand a little bit about the habits that you have to create to get there. Because this stuff, like, you might say it and then wake up feeling really differently. Like any other habit that you try to put in place, what actually worked

A (25:44)

for you, for you, Infrastructure. I have no willpower. Like, none. I am someone who will not go to the gym unless the gym bag was packed last night and I'm already wearing a sports bra. And so I know that about myself. If you know you have poor willpower, which most of us do, you're going to have to set up systems that help you out. So I always say this is like the payday system. When a paycheck hits, don't have all of it go into your checking account. Have some of it go into a savings account. I also think having money dates with a significant other sets up a system of, ooh, we are working towards the same goal. So even though I would love to go on a really big night, you know, out with the girlfriends, or maybe even do a long weekend trip with them. I need to be saving this so that we can actually take our summer vacation together. Setting up those systems allows you to avoid thinking about it, because the real liability in your, like, pathway to success is you.

B (26:40)

So what do you say to people that have, you know, it's like, they've done what they need to do. They've sat down, they've thought about their vision, they've thought about their goals. They're going to make sure that, you know, they're really writing everything down. What are the keys to financial freedom? What are the keys to this idea that we're all obsessed with generational wealth?

A (27:01)

Yeah, I Think a big key is knowing what you want. It's about planning. I always say it's really fun to calculate your FU number. And you basically just envision your perfect year. You live how you want to live. Maybe you're supporting family, kids, whatever. You get to travel. You get to do whatever you want. Then you imagine what that year costs and divide it by 0.04. That represents 4%. 4% is an incredibly conservative return. You can get 4% from some savings accounts right now, so you can count on that. Then that number that you've now calculated is how many dollars you would need to have invested to then be able to provide the money you need to live your life. You never have to work again. And the beauty of it isn't that I'm encouraging people to try to just race to this number and then kick back and relax forever. But if you know what the goal is and you get halfway there, does that mean you get to start prioritizing other things over money? Maybe your time is worth more. Maybe your family is worth more. Maybe it's just convenience for you. But I want to know where I'm at on the roadmap to my goal. And if I'm honest with you, I calculate this number all the time. I love doing it. I think it's really fun. I don't know if I'll ever retire because I have built a life that I really enjoy. And that's the whole point. You want to love today while still taking care of tomorrow. You.

B (28:20)

But isn't that kind of daunting for you? Like, you've reached the point where you're like, I don't know that I'll ever retire? No.

A (28:26)

Because when I say that, people are like, what? What do you mean? You have the money for it? And I'm like, yes. But, like, retirement isn't just, you know, turning in your badge and then just being done with your life, and then it's all downhill. Like, retirement can look very different. For me, retirement might be. I work for a nonprofit two days out of the week. Two days out of the week I get to spend with my family, and then one day out of the week, I have for miscellaneous.

B (28:50)

Yeah.

A (28:51)

Retirement doesn't have to be giving up on your life and just in the decline. Retirement is whatever you want to make it out to be. And I'm probably going to work in my retirement.

B (28:59)

Me too.

A (29:00)

No doubt. I can't imagine you ever letting go of it.

B (29:03)

I mean, absolutely no way. So when somebody gets, like, a raise or a bonus what should change in their financial strategy? What do you recommend?

A (29:13)

I think raises and bonuses are a really dangerous time, because if you're not careful, you make a little bit more, you spend a little bit more, and then all of a sudden, you get to the end of the year and you're like, that's weird. I got a $20,000 raise, but I am no better off for it.

B (29:29)

I feel like so many people feel like that.

A (29:31)

So many people. And that's why you're seeing people who make half a million dollars a year still say they're living paycheck to paycheck because all of their expenses have gotten bigger. They've gotten a much nicer apartment, they got that fancy car. They had to have kids, and they put them into private school. And now all the money's gone anyway, and you're still not setting yourself up for success for tomorrow, say, is when you have a bonus, you get to think about where you want it to go, but it has to take care of different aspects of your life. So as soon as you get a bonus, I encourage people to put some of it into savings, invest some of it, make sure that you're paying down your debt. But I always say allocate a little bit just for fun. When I got my first very big bonus at J.P. morgan, I went out and I bought a black leather Prada bag. It was the first designer thing I ever owned. And that when I tell you that bag made me feel invincible. It was the first time that I wanted something, and I got it for myself because I could afford it, because I put in the, you know, blood, sweat, and tears. And that was such an accomplishment. But if I'm honest, every bag I've bought after that, you don't get the same rush.

B (30:41)

Not quite the same.

A (30:42)

It's not quite the same.

B (30:43)

It's never quite the same. And what do you even think about people actually, like, even getting pay rises? Because I feel like there are a lot of people that take charge and they push that for themselves. But some people are pretty content to wait for the raise.

A (30:57)

Why would you be content to wait for the raise? It's never gonna come.

B (31:00)

I have a lot of women that work for me across various different businesses, and there is a huge correlation. Like, when you look at who comes in and asks for a raise, who comes in and, like, just shoots their shot and, like, goes for the absolute, you know, Sky. It's not usually the women in the office. And, you know, you will often find that women are missing pay cycles. They're Missing increase cycles because they just are not asking so much.

A (31:29)

The smartest person in the room is not the person who gets paid the most. It's the person who's the best advocate for themselves. That is, unfortunately, how it goes. You need to tell people what you're gonna do, do it really well, and then tell them what you did. And what really frustrates me to no end is that people think that if they put their head down and they work really hard, oh, maybe management will finally notice that you're not getting noticed. I'm telling you that right now. First off, I think that you should always be aiming to be in the top quartile of performers. If you are not in that top quartile, that is your first step. Because it is embarrassing to go in and ask for a raise and then somehow get put on a performance improvement plan. That sucks. You don't want that.

B (32:07)

That sucks. And that happens a lot.

A (32:09)

It does, it does. They're like, I deserve a raise. And you're like, you've actually showed up late the past four days. Like, no, you need to make sure you are a top performer. Because guess what? Top performers always get paid. Good market, bad market. Top performers. Top performers are kept around, they are safe, and they are always prioritized facts. If you are a top performer. I encourage everybody to go into their boss's office every year, set time, and ask for 10 to 15% more than they are currently making. Am I promising you're getting 10 to 15? No.

B (32:38)

No. But you got to ask. You got to ask and maybe you'll get eight.

A (32:41)

Eight is great.

B (32:42)

You want to know what's great?

A (32:43)

Eight beats inflation. Eight means you make more than you did last year and you have to actually have the receipts to back it up. Jan1. I always encourage everyone, start to make a folder, label it, raise receipts, promo, pitch, brag, book, whatever you want to call it, and the year, anytime something great happens, say, I work for you. You write a nice email. You're like, wow, that product launch was so amazing. Because of Vivian, congratulations to the whole team. I am saving that email. I put it in my little folder. So then come June or July, mid year review or end of year review, around November, December, January, I am able to literally have a laundry list of every time I was congratulated, every time a sale went through because of me, every time a product launched because of me, every time a marketing campaign was perfect because of me. And then I say, because of the experience and achievements I have brought to this team over the past year. A raise of XYZ would be commensurate with what I have accomplished. And then this is the big key. You stop talking. I did this crazy thing shut down my first year. When I asked for a raise, I followed it up with, but if not, that's okay. Girl, why did you just do all that? If not, it's okay. It's not okay. Just let them be the one to tell you no. People psych themselves out. They think it's rude. It's not. Just wait for the silence. Silence is okay. Let them tell you no. But more often than not, the answer isn't going to be yes or no. It's going to be, thank you for sharing this with me. Let me go back, take it, see, see what budget we have to work with and I'll come back to you. Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express business Platinum. Earn 5 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com plus enjoy a welcome offer of 200,000 points after you spend $20,000 on purchases on the card within your first three months of membership. American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Platinum.

B (34:58)

I want to talk to you a little bit about this idea of financial literacy and some of the differences in men and women. You've obviously taught yourself to be incredibly financially literate and there comes like a comfort level in asking for things. When you have the right words and you've got the right vernacular. How do you talk to people about going about that and becoming more financially literate?

A (35:21)

I think it is a process, it's a journey, it's step by step. But as you become more financially literate, it literally is like a self fulfilling prophecy. You feel more confident talking about money, you have more money and when you have more money, you can go into negotiations just a lot stronger. What I would say is the first thing you work on when you are trying to become financially literate though is actual jargon. The problem with learning finance is it feels like another language when people are saying things like APY APR 401K 403B like FICO score. You're like, what do all of those words mean? And you don't know. And so it's getting educated in those spaces. Getting a mentor. My mentor changed my life and she was the person I asked all my stupid questions to. I was like, what is a FICO score? And she's like, girl, what is yours? I'm like I don't know, can I have this credit card or no? And having that person who can explain it to you is so helpful. This can be any sort of professor in a academic setting. This can be an older colleague at work that you respect, that you look up to. This can be someone from your house of worship, from your community center. It can be anybody. Yeah.

B (36:37)

And you can learn from everywhere. Because I feel like the way I grew up, quite frankly, there was nobody in my proximity that I would even imagine could be my mentor or that I'd want as my mentor, frankly. But it's like, I've read everything. You know, I was 14 years old with the Financial Times, because I was like, surely that's about finance. Right. And I would read it. But the way they spoke, the way articles were written, the certain words that were in there, it became something that wasn't intimidating to me. It became something that I wanted to lean into and learn from. And back in those days, by the way, before there was even an Internet, you were looking in a dictionary or looking in an encyclopedia and looking up what those terms meant. It is so easy for us to learn about concepts, but it's on you, right? You have to go out there and look for it.

A (37:25)

I would also say that we need to un. Brainwash all of the young women listening and tell them that it's okay to want to be rich. Because right now, if you hear a woman say, I want to be rich, I want to be wealthy, she's a gold digger. Lame. It's not. Because when you hear a man say, I want to be rich, I want to be powerful, I want to be wealthy. We're like, CEO, let's Coming up. Let's go.

B (37:52)

Let's go.

A (37:53)

Strong personality. But when women are proud and confident and want finances in that way, it seems like such a negative stereotype. But I also think it comes a lot from how we talk about, like, money with men and women. With. With men, it's about growing your wealth, investing, you know, taking charge. But with women, you've heard the pop culture confessions of a shopaholic. Oh, you don't have to, you know, spend all your money, save your avocado toast money, and don't get that latte. It's like, why are all of these, like, tropes villainized when, in fact, women have less debt across every single category except for student loans?

B (38:31)

We do better.

A (38:32)

We do better.

B (38:33)

I mean, we do better when it comes to investments. When you look at women's portfolios, it's like, it's Very, very obvious. It incredible CEOs because we are so

A (38:42)

fiscally responsible and they own more homes in all 50 states.

B (38:46)

Is that true?

A (38:47)

Than single men. So single women own more homes in all 50 states than single men.

B (38:50)

Wow.

A (38:51)

And you're trying to tell me where the met one's bad with money? Yeah, I don't think so.

B (38:54)

It's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy because sometimes we feed into this idea that we don't know enough about money. I got so irritated when that there was like a meme going around or like a TikTok trend going around last year that was all of these women telling their husband, you know, darling, I can't make my mortgage payments this month. And you know, the husband would be like, like, when have you ever made the mortgage? Like, do you even know our provider is. And I must have been sent that 50 times. All my friends were like, we know this is driving you crazy. We know you've had the conversation with us in the past about our mortgages and our lack of understanding around it. And so it's high time that we got involved in those conversations and made sure that it is on us. Because women are making money, they're creating incredible businesses, we're creating unbelievable value. And yet there is still some, you know, something in the ether that makes it to be that, you know, and the minute a woman admits that she cares about money, we're like, what a.

A (39:57)

Yeah, but Emma, imagine if I told you every single day, you are not pretty, you are not pretty, you are not pretty.

B (40:04)

I would be like, don't be ridiculous,

A (40:05)

babe, don't be ridiculous. But at a certain point you start to believe it.

B (40:11)

At a certain point you start to believe it.

A (40:12)

If you say, I'm bad with money, I'm bad with money, I'm bad with money, you start to believe it. Our words have so much power. And I cannot stress this enough. Every single woman one needs to have their own money because you need to have a, you know, runaway fund. But two, if you are in a relationship, if you are not the person who is managing the money on the day to day, you better know every single detail about your finances. You have to be an active participant in your life. You need to know what you make both of you, what you have in terms of assets, what you owe in terms of debts, and also what you're spending in terms of expenses. Because I cannot tell you the number of DMs that I have gotten of the horror story is really, I just found out my husband was Cheating on me. And I don't have any money. And now I'm about to be left destitute. But a more realistic DM that I get pretty frequently is I had a wonderful, loving relationship of 45 years. My husband just passed away and I don't even know the password to my bank account. Whether it's malicious or not, you have to know what your own money is. Because most women, we die alone, we outlive our partners, and at some point, you will have to manage your own money. You better start now.

B (41:26)

There's something that I. That I read about you when you actually. And just thinking about money and being in partnership, you said that your husband was the single best financial decision you'd ever made.

A (41:36)

Best.

B (41:37)

How so?

A (41:38)

Listen, I don't think that you need to find a partner that is totally debt free or the richest man on earth or richest partner on earth, whatever.

B (41:45)

Me neither, by the way.

A (41:46)

But. But you do need to find someone who values a dollar the same way you do. Who is your biggest cheerleader and cannot be your competitor. Life is hard. Life is super hard. I'm not about to go home and live with a hater at home. Damn right I want someone. When I go home, they tell me the sun shines out of my butt. Like they think I can do no wrong. They are my fiercest advocate. Because when you have a conscientious partner, you on average actually make 4% more each year. And I can't tell you how many moments throughout my life and my career if my husband had not been there. And at that time, he was like some random, strange boyfriend that I had, you know, barely met. There are so many moments that he encouraged me to do the scary thing. And that scary thing was go from JP Morgan to buzzfeed. That scary thing was to quit my really good job, my $625,000 a year job, to take your rich BFF all time. The scary thing was to hire agents, hire lawyers, get a publicist. The scary thing was to start my own venture. And every time, he always says something silly, but he goes, do you think that we're gonna starve on my salary? And he makes great money. So I'm like, well, no. And he's like, and what are you so worried about? Take a swing. And I get to play big ball because I'm not afraid that if I fall, he's gonna catch me.

B (43:11)

Oh, I love that so much. I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about investing because once people.

A (43:16)

My favorite.

B (43:18)

It's such a difficult thing to even start to think about. Because people imagine that you need a lot more than just, you know, a great job and a good salary and a little bit of savings to start investing. And so for somebody that's just really starting out and just about to, you know, dip their fingers into investing, where do you recommend people should start?

A (43:37)

Get a robo advisor. So simple what people do is they're like, like, I have to pick my own investments. I have to pick the right account.

B (43:44)

You don't.

A (43:44)

It takes them years and years and years to finally get the guts to do it. And now you're 15 years behind. Get a robo advisor. Today, literally just Google best robo advisor 2026. You will find multiple lists that have a bunch of them. Go into them, compare the fees, compare the platforms, see what you like the best. I'm not gonna sit here and even name any names. You pick what's right for you. Then you're gonna take a quick quiz.

B (44:06)

But then again, this is about learning, right? Familiarizing yourself with the concept, understanding what a robo advisor is going on, doing the work, doing some research. You have to research. You have to, like, do it.

A (44:17)

Yeah.

B (44:17)

Ain't nothing to it, but to do it. Sometimes you just gotta, like, get past and like go.

A (44:22)

Because you know What? Doing it 80% good is better than not doing it at all. Totally 80% good.

B (44:29)

And you get better at it. Like everything else you were doing. If you were asking for pay rises one way in the 20s, damn sure when you get to your thirt, you've got a slightly better system for it and a better way of negotiating. So it's like you're going to get better. Okay, so you get a robo advisor.

A (44:42)

So you get a robo advisor. You're going to take this quick quiz. It's going to ask you things like what tax jurisdiction you live in, AKA where do you live, do you have a family? When do you plan on retiring? How much do you make? How much do you have? Do you have debt? You answer all these questions, it goes and then it spits out a portfolio that is tailored to your risk tolerance. Your risk tolerance is higher when you're younger, like lower when you're older. Your risk tolerance is higher if you make more money and lower if you make less. All of these levers will change, but you will get a portfolio that makes sense for you. And you get to be invested in 45 minutes. 45 minutes time. And the best thing, they will send you that quiz every year, every two years to then re up, because things might change. You might find a partner, you might have children, you might move, and your investments should change with your life too.

B (45:29)

What do you recommend that people get started with? Like, what do you think as a percentage of somebody's salary? How are you looking at that?

A (45:36)

Yeah, I would say that if you follow the 50, 30, 20 budgeting strategy, 50% of your after tax take home pay is on needs. So that's housing, groceries, basic transportation. 30% is wants. See, I allocated a lot of money for wants. You get to have fun, you get to go get your nails done, you get to go see your friends, you get to go on vacation, you get to go to the concert. 20% is focusing on taking care of future use. So that includes saving debt, pay down, and investing. The reason why I don't earmark a certain number for investing is because if you have high interest rate debt, like credit card debt, you got to get it right. That needs to go first.

B (46:14)

You already said that. That was in the foundation.

A (46:16)

That was in the foundation. So not everyone should be investing. If you don't have that paid down, you can't invest. If you don't have money that you can lock up for at least a decade, don't invest. But once you do have those things, it should be a portion of that. And then over time, as you make more money, my hope is that the 50 and 30 parts of your budget actually become smaller and smaller percentages while that 20 gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

B (46:40)

And how do you think about property? Because I feel like so many of us grew up with this idea that every penny that we're gonna make has to just get down, you know, go for a down payment on a house.

A (46:52)

Okay, so this is such a contentious topic. She's like, exhale, rent versus buy. Everyone's like, so if you're renting, are you a loser? No, no, definitely not. No, no, definitely not. But also it's. It's the facts. Right now. It is cheaper to rent than buy in all American major cities.

B (47:12)

Yes. And in many other places around the world, by the way.

A (47:15)

But buying a home for many still feels like the American dream. But I encourage people to get really creative. So maybe it's we don't buy our primary residence, but we buy an investment property and then we rent in our major city that we live in. That's a way to get into the real estate game. Maybe instead of buying a singular property that only gives you access to one geography, you buy a reit, a real estate investment trust. It kind of works. The same way as a stock does or an ETF does, but you get to just buy it on a very liquid market. And now you have real estate exposure. Or even for the folks who are like, okay, but I still really want to buy a property for me. Have you thought about an FHA loan? Have you thought about a conventional 97 if you're in a rural area, a USDA loan? There are so many different creative ways that if homeownership is important to you, you can still be a homeowner, but you don't need to be a homeowner to be financially literate or to be financially successful.

B (48:09)

And how do you figure out what one of those is right for you? What do you recommend?

A (48:13)

Girl, we talked about this already. You have to do the research. So. So, you know, FHA loans are better for people who have lower credit scores and really need a little leg up for their first place. Conventional 97s reward you for having an incredibly high credit score. USDA loans only apply to certain rural areas. But you just have to think about what makes sense for you. And if you live in an area where there are other people that you know who are homeowners, ask them what they did. Something that we did when we were actually buying our home, what was. We hit up all of our mentors. So my husband hit up his, I hit up mine. And we said, who did your mortgage? Who actually originated yours? And we were discussing with four different banks, and we pit them against each other. And we said, we are ready to sign as soon as you are ready to bend to our will. And when one, you know, one team gave us a really great offer. But if I'm honest, I was a little nervous about their ability to close on time. I turned right back around and I threw it in another mortgage loan officer's face. And I said, well, this place is offering me this, and I'm literally about to go do this. You want my business, yes or no? And he said, tell me what you need. I will match the terms and we will get it done.

B (49:24)

I want to go back into this investment conversation because I feel like so many people that I know are dying to start investing and to put their best foot forward. And it feels like an intimidating thing for those that feel that, but, you know, the stock market really isn't for them. What are some other ways that women can get into investing? If you're just like, this feels uncomfortable and it's not for me, and I'm never gonna understand it. What do you suggest?

A (49:51)

While I do wanna Answer that question. I would also challenge that person and ask them, why? Because the stock market, more often than not, is one of the easiest ways to build your wealth. It allows your money to stay really liquid. You can get that cash back whenever you need it. Really? Like, why are you so afraid? Is it because you feel like you like to be able to see your money or hold your money? Well, guess what? Not investing is actually scarier than investing.

B (50:17)

I'm so glad you've answered it this

A (50:19)

way, by the way, because if you aren't investing, the cost of living inflation, it's eating away at your dollars. You put a hundred dollars under your mattress, that a hundred dollars is worth less next year than it is now.

B (50:29)

So much less.

A (50:30)

But, but if you invest, it actually might be worth more. And so I would just say, one, please do invest in the stock market. But two, you can look at a bunch of other things people love to invest in art, in collectibles, in wine. But for more alternative investments, my big line is this. It is only worth what someone else is willing to pay. And so if the market tanks and all the rich people are starting to hold onto their dollars, your rare Pokemon card, your Beanie Baby, your special bottle of wine, it's just not going to be worth as much. And you're going to have a harder time selling it and you'll pay higher fees to sell it. So for me, stock market's the winner.

B (51:13)

So how do you balance the kind of flexibility and the discipline when it comes to long term investing?

A (51:18)

You know, I would say it's all about delayed gratification. It's kind of like when you paint your nails and then you're like, I have to go to the bathroom. You're gonna have to hold it, baby. You're gonna have to wait because you wanna have a really good time today. And it is so fun to see your investments make you a gazillion dollars overnight. Yeah, but that's realistically not gonna happen. And if it does, there's a really big chance that it might make you negative gazillion dollars tomorrow. I think it's all about waiting. Having a lot of money doesn't help you make more money. Having a lot of time helps you make a ton of money. Because of how the math works, compound interest is most effective the longer you have something in play. So if you start investing a teeny tiny sum of money in your early 20s, you're probably going to be better off than if you invest a chunky amount of money in your 40s. Or 50s. I'm not saying if you're starting late, you can't make it happen, but it will be harder. So start early and often invest as much as you can.

B (52:15)

So one of the things I want to talk to you about is this idea of managing wealth in the workplace. Why do benefits in the workplace place plays such an outsized role when you start to think about how much money people are leaving on the table without even realizing it?

A (52:30)

Yeah. So benefits are so important because many of them are now replacing something called a pension. So back in the day, the onus of retirement, like the saving for your retirement, was your boss's job, was your company's job. And the longer you work somewhere, the bigger your pension would be and they would pay you more and more money in your retirement. So if you worked somewhere for 40 years, maybe you didn't make a lot of money, maybe you didn't get a lot of raises or promotions, but that fat pension check every single year of your retirement was worth it because you knew you were taking care of scot free. Problem was pensions were really, really terrible because they were really bad for the employer. The employer was on the hook for a certain amount of money no matter whether they made the right investment choices, no matter if they remembered to set aside the right amount of money for you. Now they were like, you know what, we have a genius idea. We are going to replace this with something much, much worse, but kind of still the same, called the 401K. And the 401K now puts the responsibility of saving for your retirement on you, the employee. Now you have to take your own money out of your own paycheck, put it into the market, you have to invest it. Maybe some employers do offer a match so they'll match you dollar for dollar up to a certain point. And that's great, that's free money. Only case in finance, that's free money and not a scam.

B (53:47)

Right.

A (53:47)

But it's now your responsibility. And people never know what to do when it comes to actually thinking about their retirement, their health benefits, their stock option plans, maybe their company even offers like mental wellness checks, things like that. There is something at your company called a prospectus. You are going to go to HR and you're going to ask for, hey, can I see the prospectuses on the investments available in my 401k? Can I see the benefits outlined? There's probably like a handbook, a manual, it's going to be dense, it's going to be kind of annoying to read. But if you read it and you actually digest it, you will have so much more visibility into all of the things that your company does for you. I know a girlfriend who didn't even realize her company offered fertility benefits. She saved $30,000 because her company covered her egg freezing and an IVF journey for her and her husband. And can you imagine if your boss said, hey, I'm gonna give you a $30,000 raise? You want that? Of course you'd say yes. That's $30,000 right there.

B (54:51)

That's $30,000 that you'd have just left on the table. What should people understand before they even

A (54:55)

touch their 401k, that when you put cash in, it doesn't mean you're invested? This is the biggest mistake I see. People will open up these investment accounts, their 401, their IRA, their Roth IRA. They put a bunch of money in. They're like, I'm good, baby. No, you're not. You're not even close to good. Okay? That money is sitting in cash. All you have done is taken cash and put it in an envelope. You now have to take the cash in that envelope and go buy stuff. So that's that target date, retirement funds, index funds, sector funds, whatever you want. But you have to actually deploy that capital. And if you don't, it'll sit in cash. And it's the exact same as leaving it in a checking account, which is just a disaster, eaten away by inflation.

B (55:35)

I wanted to ask you a couple of questions that actually came directly from the audience. Let me see if I can find these. I like this first one. Yeah. When do you hire a financial planner?

A (55:48)

Ooh. Okay. So a financial planner, I would say as soon as it makes sense and you can afford it. But I want to make a really clear distinction. A financial advisor and a financial planner are two very different people.

B (56:00)

Please make that distinction for us.

A (56:02)

So a financial planner is literally someone who, more often than not, is either available to you for free or for a flat rate fee through your financial institution. They will walk through with you, your current finances, things that need to change for you to hit your goals. I think everybody should talk to a financial planner, right? In particular, everyone.

B (56:19)

Especially if you can get one free. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

A (56:22)

But a financial advisor, they're a money manager. They charge you a percentage of the assets under their management. So that's anywhere between a percent to 1.25% over the course of your lifetime. That could be six to seven figures. Are you cool giving someone else six to seven figures over the course of your lifetime? The Only people that I think really need financial advisors are people whose financial situations are very complex. So there's two different scenarios. If you are a high powered attorney, you make $650,000 a year. You actually have a really simple financial picture because you get paid one way, it's a W2 job, and you just make a lot of money. You can probably manage your own money, but say you are a touring musician, you sell merch, you sell albums, you get money from streaming, you tour. So you have to actually make money from ticket sales. You're getting money every which way. You're probably making that money in a bunch of different cities and maybe even different countries. That is a very complicated financial situation.

B (57:18)

Absolutely. And listen, I feel like so many people have that type of setup now. If we think about all of the creators, influencers, they're getting endorsement money. I mean. Exactly. It's like nobody is getting their money in the most straightforward ways. And you probably need somebody to come and help you with that. You can be really astute and you can be really smart, but you're not gonna understand the implications from like a million different territories. It's like you need somebody else to come and have that cut through from you. This question. I absolutely love how to start building wealth in your 40s when everyone's talking about starting early. We've spoken a lot about starting early today, but of course there's no. No time is too late.

A (57:55)

Please tell us that no time is too late. It's going to be harder though. So I want us to play catch up, both literally, but also mentally. You are going to need to put a bigger percentage of your paycheck away into your retirement savings, into your investor.

B (58:10)

So you're saying that we should get rid of that 50, 30, 20 rule.

A (58:13)

You got to do more and switch

B (58:14)

it up a bit more.

A (58:15)

I'm asking you to cut down on the wants because I don't want to ask people to cut down on needs. You need those. Right? But cut down on those wants?

B (58:22)

Well, maybe reevaluate the needs.

A (58:24)

Reevaluate? Yeah.

B (58:25)

Because by 40 you might have switched some things into needs that aren't really needs.

A (58:29)

Getting Botox, not a need. Even though. Even though I think it is.

B (58:32)

It's just a want.

A (58:32)

Actually, it is a want. But things like that, like make sure that you are doing more than what you would have had to do in your 20s. But also the tax code allows you to literally catch up. People who are over 50 and between their retirement age and 50 actually can put more dollars into their retirement accounts than everybody else. So you can literally catch up with your dollars.

B (58:53)

How can you work hard, produce more, and not give it all away to taxes?

A (58:57)

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, there's. There's the really simple stuff of contributing to your retirement that is always going to help give you a tax advantage of some sort. It's also by playing by the government's rules. So maybe it's, you know, you move into a city in a state that has no state income tax. Think about that. There are different things that you can do, especially if you are a business owner, that makes it really easy to write off parts of your expenses.

B (59:29)

Absolutely.

A (59:30)

I think that is a real win for people who are 1099, who are their own business owners versus W2 employees. Talking to a really good accountant and making sure that they are being creative.

B (59:41)

Yes.

A (59:41)

I want you to have a creative accountant.

B (59:43)

Yeah.

A (59:43)

And that is how you're going to be able to get this down.

B (59:45)

There's a question here saying when. How much does. I think they might be English. How much to pay oneself as an entrepreneur?

A (59:54)

Yeah, I think there's like a bunch of different schools of thought of this, but here's mine. You need to pay yourself a healthy salary, one where you can comfortably live your personal life. Because if I see a CEO who pays themselves so little that they are driving a car that can barely get them from point A to point B, that they are eating the peanut butter jellies and not taking care of their body, it makes me worried about the health of their company as well.

B (60:22)

I couldn't agree more.

A (60:23)

You have to take care of you first before you can, you know, your own oxygen mask first. And then the business is oxygen mask. Yeah, but I encourage people to pay themselves as much as possible without hurting the business, but also as little as possible to get them the life that they want.

B (60:38)

All right, one more of these because I think they're so helpful. How do you plan and run your own business and your own income when your income is inconsistent?

A (60:46)

Financial forecasting when you are feast or famine is 10 times even more important than if you're a traditional W2 employee. When you are W2 employee, you can typically budget month to month.

B (60:57)

Yeah.

A (60:58)

But when you are a freelancer and you have these high and low periods of income, I need you to budget quarter by quarter or year by year. And that means when you have those really, really big feast moments, you need to be setting more aside to act as buffer. When you have those famine and trough moments, once you actually start to have your business run for a number of years, you will start to notice patterns. As a small business owner myself, I've noticed that the spend in Q4 is unlike anything else.

B (61:29)

Anything else.

A (61:31)

But Q1, where did all the money go? Help me. Like, that is very literally what it looks like, but it happens every year. And every single year after Q4, I'm like, I'm rich. And after Q1, I'm like, wait, are we doing okay? But now I know that. So I save more of those Q4 dollars, and I make sure that I have enough to make payroll. I have enough to continue to run my business. I make sure that I can pay all my vendors, all of my team. And so it's all about planning, but for a longer time horizon.

B (62:00)

Yeah. I mean, listen, you are an incredibly successful entrepreneur yourself. What is it that you wish you knew that you'd love to pass on to other women or to other founders? That is just the one piece of information you wish you'd have had way more early on.

A (62:16)

Ooh, I would say to probably just take risks sooner and move faster. I pride myself now on being fast. I think I'm faster than most people. I don't think I'm smarter. And frankly, I work really hard, but I don't know if I work harder than everybody, but I'm fast. So when I don't know what to do, and I have a slew of decisions 1 through 5, by the time someone else has now gone through the analysis and belabored the decision, I've already gone through the first three and realized they don't work. So now I'm on to four. And if four doesn't work, five's gonna be it. I think that we could all learn to be a little faster, be a little bit more decisive, move with speed and precision, but then don't be afraid to cut bait if it's not working right. If you move fast, you can just do more things, and you'll find out if something doesn't work sooner versus having this whole plan, this launch plan, and then it doesn't work, then it's a real failure because you've wasted all that time. If you don't waste too much time, you can always pivot to something else.

B (63:19)

How do you think about risk at this point in your career? Because I guess there's so much, you know, you're out here, you're giving people financial advice, you're building your own business, recently married, and going on that journey. How are you thinking about risk at this point in your Life.

A (63:36)

I think right now I am very risk loving. So there's people who are risk averse and risk loving. I'm very risk loving because I don't have any kids. I own a home, but, you know, I can comfortably make those payments. I think I will become more and more risk averse as my life becomes more rooted. When I have the kids and the pet and maybe more people, frankly on my payroll. If I have to have a nanny to help with the kids, if I have to have a personal assistant, right now I hire for my business, but I handle all of my own miscellaneous life activities by myself. Yes, as there are more people who depend on you, you have to move a little bit more carefully. But right now I'll take every risk. I'll try if something's crazy, I'll try anything once and twice if I like it. And so I just think right now is a really freeing time because I don't have too many responsibilities and I'm lucky. I have a partner who also makes a great living, makes a great income. So we take care of ourselves for each other. We don't have to take care of the other person.

B (64:36)

I think that's fantastic advice. As you start to step into, you know, potentially looking at children and building a family. How are you equating that with the Vivian that has been leaning into risk and moving really fast? How is that changing or shaping?

A (64:54)

If I'm honest, I really do look up to you. I look up to a lot of women that are doing, you know, something tangential to what I'm doing. But it all seems like an impossible balancing act. The last time we sat down together was when I was actually interviewing you.

B (65:09)

Yes.

A (65:09)

And you said something that was crazy to me, that you were like, I never get to be in two places at once and it's not fair to somebody at all times. Like either I am, you know, being selfish and thinking about my business or being selfish and thinking about my kids. And there's no right answer. But you do have to pick and choose your battles and it's always a sacrifice. And so I think I will have to unfortunately make harder decisions. Something I'm working on is saying no to stuff.

B (65:39)

Yeah.

A (65:40)

Leaving the corporate world and becoming my own boss. I was very afraid to ever say no because it felt like I had this lightning in a bottle moment. My 15 minutes of fame. And if I ever said no to any press opportunity or interview or brand partnership, it would never come back. And I would say, well, I guess I've just lost out on that opportunity. But what I've come to find is that there's power in saying no. And when I say no to the little thing that I didn't really want to do, it actually frees up that time for me to do something bigger and better. And frankly, sometimes that bigger and better thing is just sit on my couch. But it really is looking up to other people, seeing how you manage both your life and your work. Because I do love both things and I don't want to have to give up anything. But I will.

B (66:27)

I'm interested to think like, because you're so long term and you've been thinking and in this world for a long time, in the financial world for a long time, do you sit here and go like I am planned through my 60s and my 70s and my 80s. I know we've spoken a little bit about retirement today, but how far do you go with that?

A (66:46)

You know, I think I try to go really far out, but it is ever changing. You know, five years ago your rich BFF didn't exist. Isn't that crazy?

B (66:58)

Which is crazy.

A (66:59)

We actually met with a financial planner. I want to say like eight years ago. My, my now husband and I, we sat down and we were like, okay, this is great. Like if Vivian can continue to make, you know, a salary like this and I can continue in my career, like this is what it'll look like. Like what a joke. Like can I look back on those documents and be like, wow, none of this actually makes any sense. Two years after that I started Urge bff. I started making really great money that was supplemental to my buzzfeed career, which also really took off at that time. So I was like, oh my gosh, like haha, look at that financial plan. How crazy. Three years later, I'm in the midst of your hbff. Everything is growing. It's my full time job. I look back at that financial plan, I'm like, oh, what a joke. Last year I spoke with the New York times. I made $7 million in my business as an individual person.

B (67:47)

Thank you for telling me the number, by the way.

A (67:48)

Yeah, of course I have to.

B (67:50)

No you don't. You actually don't have to. And most people don't. But I love that you do because if you didn't, it'd be really freaky.

A (67:56)

But like, that's crazy. And for me to say My business made $7 million last year and two years before that, I didn't have any idea that I was going to ever be able to do that. I think it is not a wasted exercise, but it is one that doesn't necessarily take into account the fact that I'm currently on a rocket ship. So I try to do a financial planning meeting every single year. I try to extrapolate for the next 40 years of my life. But right now, everything is up in the air. And that's why I get to do all of these cool things. But maybe at some point my life will stabilize and then I'll have a better picture of what my 60s and 70s and 80s looks like. But for now, I'm riding the wave.

B (68:41)

What would you say to any woman that is listening right now that is in a comfortable situation like you were at buzzfeed, but is thinking that there's more somehow that has that, you know, itch and that thought and that dream and they're aspiring. What do you wanna say to those people that are looking at you and thinking, I'd love to have a year in my future where I make 7 million bucks?

A (69:07)

Yeah. I think mediocrity is a drug that really clouds your judgment. I spoke with a NYU professor. She's a lauded author, Susie Welch. And she.

B (69:19)

Oh, I love Susie Welch. She's like, genius.

A (69:22)

The best.

B (69:22)

The best.

A (69:23)

So Susie says that. That a b plus life is the most dangerous thing, because if you have a C minus life and your life sucks, like, you're really incentivized to change it. If you have an A plus life, your life is amazing and you're really incentivized to keep it. But B plus, you can tread forever and you can have a mediocre life for a really long time. And then you'll look back and be like, this isn't what we promised ourselves. And so for someone who has a decent life, a really stable setup, I just say, don't be afraid to take the risk. When I was thinking about taking your HBFF full time, I asked myself a question. And it was when I'm 50 years old. At the time I was 25ish, I was like, 25 years from now. I've lived another entire lifetime. Am I going to regret not giving this a try? And I had something and I was like, yeah, I will regret. I don't wanna ask myself, what if. Do not give up on the best opportunities of your life because of fear. Don't be afraid to take the risk.

B (70:25)

That is really, really great advice. What's next for your rich bff?

A (70:29)

Yeah, thank you so much.

B (70:30)

I wanna know whatever you're happy to share.

A (70:32)

I'd love to share with all of the folks who are watching or listening,

B (70:36)

you've got a new book.

A (70:37)

New book. Well endowed. Cheeky title. Always have to.

B (70:41)

I mean, you have to have a cheeky. You're called the rich bff. I mean, I feel like you have to. Oh, it looks like you've got some really amazing people.

A (70:47)

Oh, my go.

B (70:48)

That are, you know, talking about your book here.

A (70:50)

It's so funny because Emma actually blurbed my book, so she's on the back cover. And you know, I mean, I love this. Literally building your own endowment. If we. If we take away the crass joke. What being well endowed is talking about an endowment. An endowment is a pile of money that helps you invest and grow and so that your mission can be continued into the future. And that is what I want for every single person. I want you to be able to talk to money with the people in your life, make those big decisions like homes and cars. I want you to have the retirement you deserve and still be able to leave something behind through estate planning and smart trust and will set up so that the people you care about most are taken care of.

B (71:31)

I mean, end of. Isn't that what we all want?

A (71:34)

Yeah.

B (71:35)

I mean, this book is fantastic. I blurbed it. Cause I read it and I loved it and I found it massively, massively valuable. I'm really proud of you. You're gonna have another bestselling book. Just, you know, so just. They're all coming out of everywhere. Good for you. My last question for you, my love. What are you currently aspiring to?

A (71:54)

I am trying to take a page out of your book and go from just being a creator to being a founder. I recently built a app. It's called Ask Dolly. You can check it out@askdolly.com and essentially what it does is it is going to be your financial companion. And your potential people have sent me thousands of DMs, and my greatest sadness is that I can't answer every single one. I literally wouldn't be able to get my job done. But with this, you can ask Dolly any question you want and get that financial knowledge on demand so we can answer all those questions. You can learn that jargon. This is not ChatGPT. We are a registered investment advisor with the SEC. So this is good. And then if you ask a really personalized question, we actually do connect you with a certified financial planner so you can get legitimate financial advice that is tailored to you. We also break down headlines. There's, you know, proprietary content that I'm only putting on Ask Dolly. And there is a wealth breakdown. So we do a health check the same way. You go and get your physical. This app is going to go through all of your accounts and say, hey, Emma, you're doing a really, really great job with debt pay down, but we need to beef up that emergency fund, and it'll give you advice on how to improve your finances until you are holistically, I love it.

B (73:06)

I mean, honestly, I'm so happy for you. Every time I speak to you, I get something and I feel like you're just one of those people that I constantly recommend. I'm like, listen to this girl. Because she's just gonna open certain parts of your brain and make you think about things that you're perhaps not. And so much of this is about access. I talk all the time and I say, you know, it isn't small at the top, it's minuscule. And what I mean by that is there's so much incredible information that goes around and all we need is access to it. And I think that with what you're doing every day, you are giving us access to information. You're making us question the most important things. And I really give you, like, huge kudos, huge credit for the app, for the book, for everything that you do. And I mean, you're a business.

A (73:54)

Thank you.

B (73:54)

You're a whole business.

A (73:55)

Thank you for your friendship. I feel like, you know, it's. It's amazing to feel like throughout my entire lifetime, the greatest things that have ever happened to me have been because my mentors cared about me and people in my life were willing to take a swing and believe in me. And I'm so grateful that you've been a part of that.

B (74:11)

Oh, I love me for that. What? Heaven. So good to speak to you, my darling. Thank you so much.

A (74:16)

Thank you.

B (74:17)

So before we wrap, I want to leave you with this. When you understand your money, you move with more confidence. You make clearer decisions, and you're able to choose opportunities from a place of intention instead of from a place of fear. Wealth is a skill, and like negotiation or leadership, it compounds over time. The earlier you start, the more optionality you create for yourself. In the next episode of our Career Girls Guide, we're going to continue to build on this foundation with another practical conversation that's designed to help you move through your career with clarity and with confidence. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed executive producer Ashley McShann, Derrick Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy, Leah Rees, Dennis, Asha Salouja, Lauren Legrasso Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Katherine Bale Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and wme. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meikol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G r E D e. That's Aspire A s P I r e with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Emma Greed me.