Negotiation Starts Before You Enter the Room

Summary

Podcast Summary: Aspire with Emma Grede

Episode Title: Negotiation Starts Before You Enter the Room
Host: Emma Grede
Guest: Mori Taheripour, Negotiation Expert & Professor at Wharton
Date: March 5, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is part of the "Career Girls Guide" series and zooms in on negotiation—a crucial, under-discussed career skill. Emma Grede and guest Mori Taheripour explore the emotional and practical dimensions of negotiation, emphasizing self-advocacy, authenticity, preparation, and the long-term importance of personal values and connection. The episode offers strategic, psychological, and actionable advice, particularly for women, touching on societal conditioning, self-doubt, and overcoming fear.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Negotiation as a Fundamental Life Skill

• “We negotiate every single day, literally from the time we were babies...” (02:25, Mori)
• Negotiation is not just for workplaces—it’s part of daily life, relationships, and self-talk.
• Despite early skills, negative experiences can foster doubt and fear around negotiation.

2. Why Women (and ‘Others’) Struggle to Self-Advocate

• Societal judgments and cumulative “no’s” breed self-doubt and people-pleasing tendencies.
• “If you can’t be your own best advocate, there’s really nothing I can do for you.” (09:32, Mori)
• Self-confidence and self-advocacy are presented as everyone’s responsibility, especially for ‘others’ who feel marginalized.

3. Negotiation Is Not Combat

• Negotiation is about connection, not confrontation or zero-sum games.
• “Negotiations is rooted in humanity. It is personal connections.” (14:06, Mori)
• Scarcity mindset keeps people—especially women—afraid to ask for more.

4. Preparation Before Entering the Room

• Most negotiation success depends on what happens before the actual meeting.
• “If negotiations means that’s when you speak your voice and that’s when you speak your truth, then you decide when you’re gonna speak it.” (19:20, Mori)
• There is no ‘perfect’ time—seizing or creating the opportunity is key.

5. Values-First Approach

• Negotiation should start with personal values, not just a “bottom line.”
• “What do I want to abide by?” (20:53, Mori)
• Knowing non-negotiables and preparing for honesty removes stress and increases clarity.

6. Aspirational Goal-Setting

• Set ambitious (“aspirational”) goals—those who do so consistently achieve better outcomes.
• “Negotiations isn’t meant to be comfortable, right?” (23:34, Mori)

7. Balance Aspirational vs. Realistic Goals

• Support your ask with data and understand both your and the other side’s perspectives.
• “I can ask for anything if I can give you the data for it.” (25:47, Mori)

8. Curiosity and Empathy

• Success arises from being present, prepared, and truly curious about the other party’s needs.
• “There’s no greater power in negotiations than a curious mind.” (28:30, Mori)

9. Making the Ask & The Power of Silence

• Make your presentation, then pause—don’t over-justify.
• “Make the ask and shut the fuck up.” (29:10, Emma)
• Silence invites the counterpart to process and respond thoughtfully.

10. Dealing With Conflict and Difficult Negotiators

• Use breath work and the “go to the balcony” technique to gain perspective and manage emotions.
• “Who said it has to be done today?” (33:32, Mori)
• Taking a break can recalibrate negotiations.

11. Presence—Whether In-Person or Virtual

• “Presence is power.” (39:27, Mori)
• Eliminate distractions, especially on Zoom; information exchange/rapport is foundational.

12. The Lost Art of Connection

• Building personal rapport (even small talk) creates long-term business relationships.
• Knowledge of personal details helps in moments of crisis or opportunity.

13. Rejection Is Not the End

• “No” is often about the offer, not you. Welcome no as a learning moment.
• “No, they are not rejecting me.” (48:29, Mori)
• Always ask for feedback after rejection to learn and grow.

14. Combatting Regret & Harnessing Reflection

• Allow yourself to feel regret, but use it as fuel to learn and do better next time.
• “If I regret it, that means it was meaningful to me…how can I be better the next time?” (54:27, Mori)

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• [06:29] Mori: “Negotiations was your power... the way you show up in the world and tell people what you want.”
• [13:25] Emma: “When people start with a five, I’m like, I’m done. I’m like, please don’t count me down into this.”
• [19:17] Mori: “People always say, when is the right time to negotiate? I say, when you need to negotiate. That's the right time.”
• [29:10] Emma: “Make the ask and shut the fuck up.”
• [37:36] Mori: “Leverage is all about how you show up… Walk in your power.”
• [38:12] Emma: “Does the outfit matter?”
• [39:27] Mori: “Presence is power.”
• [47:53] Mori: “They’re not saying no to you, they’re saying no to that thing.”
• [54:27] Mori: “If I regret it, that means it was meaningful to me... how can I be better the next time?”
• [59:22] Mori: “Impossible. I love that. All things are possible, even if it doesn’t work out... possibility takes hope, promise, and work.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Importance of Negotiation – [02:21]
• Negotiation and Childhood Self-Advocacy – [07:08]
• People Pleasing and Guilt – [10:04], [51:30]
• Negotiation Myths and Transactional Pitfalls – [13:49]
• Scarcity Mindset and Self-Worth – [15:19]
• Preparation/Pre-Negotiation Work – [18:31]
• Values-First Negotiation – [20:43]
• Goal Setting and Using Data – [23:20], [25:29]
• Curiosity and Listening – [27:39]
• Making the Ask and Handling Silence – [28:36], [29:10]
• Handling Difficult Negotiations – [31:03]
• Presence (In-Person & Virtual) – [39:27]
• Building Rapport and Connection – [41:07], [43:17]
• Dealing with Rejection – [47:53]
• Regret and Reflection – [53:47], [54:27]
• Rapid Fire: Hardest Ask, Biggest Lesson, Unlearning “Impossible” – [57:04], [59:22]
• Book Recommendation – [62:02] (“How to Win Friends and Influence People,” Dale Carnegie)

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Techniques, Takeaways & Audience Questions

• Anyone Can Learn to Negotiate: Negotiation is both innate and teachable.
• Scarcity vs. Abundance: Approach negotiation from abundance and shared benefit, not zero-sum.
• Preparation is Underrated: Deep self-understanding and data-gathering are critical.
• Presence = Power: Whether physically or virtually, be fully present and respect the other party.
• Connection is Currency: Build real relationships for long-term success.
• Feedback Over Fear: Rejection is a teacher, not a verdict.
• Regret as a Signal: Let it inform your next move, don’t dwell.
• Be Respectful, Not Apologetic: Respect and likability are important, but assertiveness and authenticity matter more than striving to please.

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Final Mindset Shift

• “You’ve done this before, you’ve done this forever…you’re experienced. You’re just not giving yourself credit.” (49:29, Mori)

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Essential Recommended Reading

• Book: “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie ([62:02]).

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The episode closes with Emma and Mori’s reminder: negotiation is less about leverage, bravado, or a script—and more about clarity, self-belief, human connection, and the courage to bring your true self to the table.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to Aspire. Today we are continuing the Career Girls Guide. This series is all about giving you practical tools to navigate every stage of your career, from your first job to the biggest opportunity. Now, in this episode, we're covering all aspects of negotiation, one of the most important skills we use, but one of the least talked about. Now, negotiation impacts how much we earn, how we're valued, and what opportunities we say yes or no to. And yet so many of us are taught to be grateful, patient, and quiet instead of prepared. Now, to help us break this down, I'm joined by someone who lives and breathes this work. Joining me today is Mori Terapore, a negotiation expert, professor at Wharton, and author of Bring Yourself. Mori has spent years teaching people how to negotiate with confidence and clarity, and today she's here to teach us. Before we get into the episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe. The Start With Yourself tour kicks off on April 15th in New York City. Tickets are on sale [e-mail] so, Morrie, I am so happy to have you here today because I feel like this is probably the most requested episode subject that we could ever cover on this show. Every single woman that I speak to has some horror story in negotiation. And so when I went out to my followers, when I speak to my friends, they're like, please do me a favor and do an episode on negotiation. I thought, I'll go one better than that. We're gonna do just a series, a series that really ultimately should serve as, you know, a career woman's guide, a career girl's guide, as we would say on Aspire. And there is nobody better than you to talk to about negotiation. But it's true. It's true. I did my research. I called around, I was like, who really knows this? And honest, your books have been so seminal, so incredible. I feel like they've really, honestly helped so many women. But I wanted to ask you, why do you believe that negotiation is a life skill that every woman ultimately needs?

[B]

Yeah. First of all, you have no idea how thrilled I am to be here. I think I have manifested you for sure. So I am grateful for all of that that you just mentioned. But it's really exciting to be here and have this conversation with you because we negotiate every single day, literally from the time we were babies, we come into this world negotiating. And I think what's really interesting is that we have so much practice. We know so much because it's something that we practice every day. And yet, as we go through life and we have negative experiences. People get divorces, people lose jobs, people have scars, whether it's childhood trauma, whatever it is, that we really start doubting our relationship with negotiations, we would start doubting our own ability. And so, you know, if this is something that we do every day and it connects people, it gives us voice, it gives us power, it gives us opportunity, it is an absolute, necessary life skill. It's just that we start really fearing it and really account those negative experiences as being the story, and we start counting ourselves out. So it's like the thing, the skill you must have, and the one that we start doubting ourselves the most with, even though we're actually quite experienced and really quite good negotiators.

[A]

I couldn't agree more. How did you personally find yourself in this world of negotiation?

[B]

I was graduating from the Wharton School, and my negotiations professor, my very last semester said, I think you should teach negotiations. And I was like, I think you're crazy. I'm an introvert. The notion of standing in front of a classroom saying anything just scared the heck out of me. And I really had to ask, like, what was it about me? Or what is it about? What do you see in me that makes you think I do this? Well, he said, one, you totally leaned into this class. I have a very competitive edge, by the way. But he said, and you took the mistakes that you made really seriously insofar as you learned from them. Like, growth was really important to you. And I was an entrepreneur at the time. And he said, and you've had so much experience, I think you'd be great. So, you know, the imposter syndrome thing set in, and I was like, no, I can't do this. And here I am 22 plus years later, and I found my purpose.

[A]

How did you know that you had something and that you could help other people?

[B]

To be honest, the first few years of teaching were really difficult insofar as I really doubted myself, my ability, right when you do something you never imagined yourself doing. So I was very scripted. You know, I had the syllabus. I was like, I'm sticking to this no matter what. And, you know, was like, on time and presented in a certain way. Then I looked up one day a couple years later, and I was like, this is not fun. And I don't know if I'm really fulfilling my duty to my students. I was teaching undergrads at Wharton at the time, and I love them, and I felt such a sense of responsibility to them. I think it's such a privilege to do this. So I said, you know, you're going to try this one more time and you're going to do it your way. If that doesn't work, then this wasn't meant for you and this was a chapter and we move on. And I remember as I prepared for that sort of semester coming up, I really looked inward and I thought about all the times I've negotiated in my life and what in particular negotiations meant to me and for me in my life. And I realized every big move, every big conversation, every big decision, for good or for bad, they'd really come from a place of negotiations, every big decision I made. I'm one of those people who ruminates, unfortunately to a fault sometimes. And that's a negotiation. Should I do this? Should I not do this? Why am I doing this? Should I do it this way? Maybe not. And those are all negotiations. And I really started understanding that the minute I reframed what I thought negotiations was to what it had been in my life. It brought me this sense of power and legitimacy and experience. And I trusted myself. All of a sudden I trusted my gut because I fed it. I learned so much. And I discounted all those things. I thought like negotiations was a transaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, maybe even combativeness. I thought no more negotiations was your power. Negotiations was the way you show up in the world and tell people what you want and it's the way you fulfill a promise to yourself.

[A]

Oh, I love that reframing. You have to say that again for me, because I believe that so many people think that negotiations have to be combative. And if I look at the questions that were sent through to me, so many of were anchored into this idea like how do I not do this and have an argument or how do I do it without seeming ungrateful? So there's this kind of like double edged sword that you're doing something that you shouldn't do. And it's gotta come with either one of those outcomes.

[B]

Right. So how are people gonna know what you want and need if you don't talk about it? And if you don't, you, you can't present yourself to them in that way. So, you know, I really had to go again through all the different conversations I've had, all the examples of negotiations for me, and that's when I real, this is the soundtrack of my life. We've done this forever. And it's funny, when we're kids, I always talk about the fact that, you know, I don't have kids, but I've had enough Experience around kids. And I know that. And I remember myself. It's like I remember pictures of me in childhood and I was so sassy. I showed up in a way that it was like I was meant to be here. This is what I want. And you're gonna have to make a really good argument as to why I can't have this, right? And at that point, nobody's ever told us you don't have a place at this table or you're not allowed to negotiate for this. We sort of walk in, show up and show out. And that's who we are as kids. So we're courageous. And then the other thing is that when we don't get what we want, we always wanna know why.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

So if somebody says no to a kid, it's not like it's personal humiliation. So true, you know, and we don't take it personally as kids. As kids, we think you better have a good reason why you're saying no to me. Because I know the answer to this is eventually gonna be yes. So how are we gonna get there, right? And when we grow up through life and we hear unfortunately, a lot of no's, and again, we have the bad experiences, right? Life sort of happens to us.

[A]

So what happens to us along the way? Because if we start out in a place where you know, and I know this firsthand because I have four kids and they love to ask me why not. So what happens to us that stops us from being able to self advocate?

[B]

We are judged first by society and then ourselves. Those nose start to leave scars, right? We really take, we internalize the nose and personal rejection is what we associate with the nose. And so I think that over time, instead of letting those, those nos become lessons, they become rejection and they again the wounds, right? And then we don't let the scars heal. We start picking at them because we sit there and think, oh God, I should have and why did I not? And all again, the rumination. And so what happens over time is that that lessens our ability to be courageous. But we also start internalizing it. We start thinking less of ourselves, right? We don't give ourselves credit anymore. We don't really believe in ourselves anymore. And I got to tell you, teaching this, I'm very confident in how I teach and what I teach, but I always tell people is that if you can't be your own best advocate, there's really nothing I can do for you. Because that is your duty. That is your single most important duty to yourself. In negotiations. Nobody is meant to take care of you. You're supposed to take care of yourself fearlessly and, you know, with great intention. Because especially for those of us that are people pleasers, I don't know if that's where you are.

[A]

I mean, absolutely not. Not a bone, really. Not a bone of pleasing in this body.

[B]

Many in your life. There's a lot of. It's funny, when I first wrote my book, I have a mentor who said, more. You will never know what chapter is going to be the most popular. So don't start thinking you can figure that out. You let the audience decide. It was a chapter on people pleaser.

[A]

Oh, I.

[B]

Everybody's like, I'm a people pleaser. I didn't know this. This chapter was meant for me. Man, woman, whatever.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And that then when you are that person who's in service of other people, what you no longer are in service to yourself.

[A]

When you started this work, were you aware that there would be like a specifically female track when you start to think about negotiation?

[B]

I think so. Then. I don't think that as much now because I think that anybody who considers themselves to be an other, anybody who doesn't feel like they have that seat at the table, and whether it's societal, whether it's parental, whether it's cultural, I think that's sort of the same experiences that women have had forever.

[A]

Right, Very interesting. Yeah, quite right.

[B]

And so though I speak to a lot of women and I know that of course, some of these things are I've experienced through my own life, I do think that this notion of self confidence, that's sort of the through line. Right? The self love, the self confidence, again, being able to advocate for yourself, you know, and giving yourself permission to do that without the guilt, without the shame, I think that's something that a lot of people actually experience.

[A]

Maury, you're a teacher. Do you believe that everyone can learn to be a better negotiator?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You do?

[B]

Absolutely. It's a. It's a learned skill, even though I think we're sort of primed for it, like I said as kids, but it's like any other skill. And if you think about all of the adjacent skills. Right. Those are all teachable and learnable. Right. So having self confidence, obviously, so working through that and all those skills that you need to be able to do that. Right. And that takes, you know, a variety of things in the toolkit, being able to be present, mindfulness skill that we all learn, emotional intelligence, that's teachable, that's learnable. So you know, all of those things. It's like, there's like. If you think about negotiations as being like the heart, like the organ, like all of those things, when they're strengthened, so is this organ.

[A]

So what do you feel like most people get wrong about the art of negotiation?

[B]

I truly believe that the best negotiators are completely authentic. If you're walking in there, you're bringing yourself, which is why that's the title of my book, and you're not rehearsed. There's a part of you that you really trust. And therefore, when you release all the pretense and when you release the scripting and when you release the performance, the power sits in you. And if you can be true to yourself and you show up that way, then you are then more present for the other person, too. Because I'm not in my head wondering how you like me or whether I'm saying the right word or whether I should smile or whether I should cross my legs or whether I'm clear of all those burdens. I unburden myself by being authentic. And I think that people, because there's so many books and people who teach this, who say, say these three things, do these two things.

[A]

You know, Maury, that's why I have you here. Let me tell you, when people start with a five, I'm like, I'm done. I'm like, please don't count me down into this. Explain to me and I'll understand.

[B]

No, it's so. Bruce, life is hard enough, and I think the most courageous thing we can do is to really understand ourselves and honor ourselves just as we are. Should you get better? Absolutely. I believe in excellence. I believe in doing better and learning more and all of that. But I don't believe that I'm supposed to go through life being somebody else. No, the other is that people truly think of negotiations as transactions.

[A]

Yes. Explain that.

[B]

They think it's a win lose proposition, right? They think that somebody was literally a

[A]

question that came up. It's like, if I win, does somebody else always have to lose? I was like, that's. That isn't what it is. But please explain that.

[B]

You know, by the way, all this is fair, right? Because we go in to buy a car and we get a really horrible deal and we're like, oh, God, I lost. Right? Or people get divorces and they get burned into divorce. So to them, that becomes the negotiations, right? So unfortunately, those negative experiences seem to leave a very lasting impression. I don't like this notion of I win Somebody else loses. Right. Because maybe I'm a people pleaser, maybe I like everybody being happy. So therefore I must not be a good negotiator. Here's the truth. Negotiations is rooted in humanity. It is personal connections. Right. And again, whether it's you negotiating with yourself or you with other people, I don't care. It's five people, it's two people. It's the connection that we make. And sometimes the connections work, sometimes they don't. And if you think about all the conversations you have every day, if those are all negotiations, the majority, and not just by little, I mean, the large majority of those conversations are not conflict. You're making a decision, you're having a conversation. And through that conversation, we're trying to get somewhere better than when we were, when we first started. And maybe you're happier with us, maybe I'm happier with this. But this notion of if I'm happy, you are sad, if you win, I lose is nonsensical. And it also, I think, comes from this place of scarcity. Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

Well, that's why my thinking is always. And listen, I took it come at this from a place of, you know, I've been an employer of a lot of people for a long time and I see the nuances and the differences. I'm certainly not saying women are not as good as men at negotiating, but they come at it from a different point. They come at it from a scarcity point of view. If I get this, then somebody else gets less. If I ask for this, then my team is going to get a little bit less. And so the point of view is always much more like what's happening in the environment. And as a, you know, a consequence of what I get, somebody else has to suffer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's just not what I see in the men that I negotiate with.

[B]

No. But it's also. So let's talk about societal issues because it's very real. We've not made up these things in our head. Absolutely. And forever. We had been told, I work a lot in sports. Right. You know, in the sports industry, particularly female dominated, you can think about finance this way. Plenty of other industries. But we were always, we only saw a few of us. So we always thought there can only be room for a few of us. Right. And if there's room at this table for only one person, damn it, I'm going to be that person. Right. And the minute I'm collaborative, the minute I appear understanding, maybe they'll think that's weak. So, you know, What? I'm going to show up with my armor on. And that armor comes from a place of fear. It comes from doubting yourself. Because if you're self assured, you don't think that it's going to be you or them. And if you. And if it is you or them, it's because you are not. This wasn't meant for me, Right. And so because we've been in places where there's so few of us, we have bought into the lie that there will always be a few of us. That's just not true. And so, you know, this notion of women not having negotiated so often, there's plenty of studies to show this, right? There's so much evidence for this that says, you know, as a result of not wanting me, not wanting to be judged, first of all, because I don't want to appear greedy, I don't want them to think that I'm in it for myself. Which, by the way, there's nothing wrong with being in it for yourself.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Because I don't want them to judge me. I'm not going to do it. Right. And because I don't want to be losing, I'm not gonna make room for somebody else. And you know, and the self. Never mind the self judgment. Right. Do I even deserve this? Right. So if you come from a place of not believing in yourself, deservedness becomes the conversation. Right. I don't know if I can ask because I don't know if I deserve it.

[A]

Which is actually, I think, a starting point for so many women. And I feel like, you know, I was raised in such a way where I always thought I deserved it. You know, it's like you get up and you go to work and you try really hard. I just assumed that I was deserv. And that was the starting point because I think in those early roles, you know, when you were really negotiating for like tiny things, you know, like a $5,000 pay rise, like, you had to believe that your work equated and equaled you being able to get that thing.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And so for me, it was that simple. But I do think that this idea of, you know, what is our level of self belief? Like, that's almost like the. The starting point.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

There's something that you talk about a lot in your work, which is this idea of what happens in negotiation before you even get in the room. And I would love you to talk about that because to me that was just like the aha. Like, you know, the part that made me like such a fan of Your work and your way of thinking.

[B]

Thank you. I'm going to add something before I go to there, please. And it is something that sort of, traditionally, women have also not necessarily sort of succeeded in when it comes to negotiations is that we almost felt like we had to be given permission to negotiate. Right. We don't recognize the negotiations when we're in it, which is why we don't think we have experience. But we also don't know that we're allowed. And therefore, we miss the moments. And people always say, when is the right time to negotiate? I say, when you need to negotiate, that's the right time.

[A]

No one's coming down and picking you and saying, this is the moment.

[B]

No, it's when you. If negotiations means that's when you speak your voice and that's when you speak your truth, then you decide when you're gonna speak it. Now, maybe you walk into your boss's office and they look like they're having a bad day. Probably not the right moment. Right. But we're also emotionally intelligent, and so we know how to pick and choose. But nobody walks around to men and say, you know what it is? You are now having the permission to negotiate. They're like, every day is a negotiating day.

[A]

So what do you say to someone who's listening to this that says, yeah, but, you know, there are seasons for this. Like in the place where I'm working right now, you know, there's times when we get to talk about our pay increases or a change of, you know, job. What do you say to that person?

[B]

That's fine. But also, if you put it off, you may no longer feel the courage to do it. You may miss that moment. So you can have the pre conversations. You can go up to your boss and say, listen, I know that the annual review's coming up in a few months. I would love to have a conversation with you before that. Right. And so you've already then verbally committed yourself to this. Right. And there's no turning back at this point because your boss may turn around and say, yeah, I know you want to have that conversation with me. And so now it's sort of that. That accountability. Right. You voiced it. Right. So you create those moments. No one is, first of all, don't look for the perfect moment. There is no such thing as a perfect. The perfect moment is when you're ready, and that's. You create those opportunities.

[A]

Mori, I love that you say this because it's very, very different from what is my bottom line.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which I think Is again, part of that scarcity mindset. People, I won't take less than. And I'm like, that can't be the starting point. The starting point has to be like, what are your values?

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What are you? What do I want to abide by?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if it doesn't go your way, at least you can look in the mirror and say, you know, I'll do better next time. What did I learn from this? But if you negotiate away or compromise the things that are so important to you, let's say for me, it's honesty, right. And part of it is I'm a really bad liar. Right. So. And my reputation is tied to these things. So knowing that, I know that to abide by that value, I need to prepare in a way that will eliminate the opportunity to have to. Or the need to have to lie. So I think I go through all the potential questions they're gonna ask, right? I'm gonna be ready. Cause I wanna know how much I wanna give you. I wanna know how I'm gonna frame it. I'll do it honestly, but in a way that I'm not gonna lose my leverage. So knowing that I will always keep that promise to myself. Because at the end, and I don't like using the word winning, but feeling whole comes from the fulfillment of that promise.

[A]

And just for people to like to crystallize that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So knowing your values and knowing what you're not going to do, like, what is the conversation you're having in your head? I frame it up for me. You're. You're literally saying to yourself, what?

[B]

Who am I? What's important to me?

[A]

What's important to me?

[B]

What's important to me? And I'm not talking about a thing or a price or anything, but what makes me who I am? Part of the understanding yourself. It's the messy truth that people are so afraid to. To really uncover or think about. But if you do it beforehand, you've dealt with those monsters, right? You've battled them. You go get your therapy. And I'm a big fan of therapy. I'm a big fan of these days. I do a lot of sort of energy work. If I am burdened, I'm not free.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And when I'm not free, I can't. I can't possibly advocate for myself. But I'm not. My thoughts are not clear. My courage is diminished. I want to feel free, I want to feel whole. I want to show up not as my perfect self, because I'm not. I want to show up as Maury, like, this is who I am and you don't have to love me, but I'm going to be respectful and I'm going to be kind and I'm going to be likable. But this is me all day long, every day.

[A]

So you go in and you've already done that work. You've already asked yourself what is important to me, what else needs to happen before you walk into that room?

[B]

Goals. So once you do that, and that's why sort of the order of it matters. And so goal setting is really important. And the really great thing about goal setting is that there's so much science behind this. The research is profound. And what we know to be true is this, is that people who set aspirational goals always do better in their negotiations, right? It's as though you rise to the occasion. And aspirational is scary. Aspirational is not comfortable. Negotiations isn't meant to be comfortable, right? And what you want in life, if you see comfortable, that's as good as it's going to get, and probably less. Because if you start negotiating in a place of comfort, think about the only place to go from there is down. But here's the most empowering thing, is that when you think about it, if I am aspirational, if I'm brave, if I have courage to dream big and want more for myself, when the research tells me that I'm likely to get that, or if I don't get that, it's like reaching for. If you don't get to the moon, you'll at least hit the stars, then that feels so uplifting and empowering to me. And that's why I spend so much of my time talking to my students about this. Because you know, what this is telling you is that life doesn't happen to you, you happen to life. And that's what so many of us give our power away in negotiations because we think somebody else has determined the outcome. No, my friend, you were it all along, right? And you were in the driver's seat. Now, if you ended up looking up and you're all of a sudden in the passenger seat, it's because you opened the car door and you walked around and you sat in that passenger seat. So you gave up your power, but you could have actually owned it.

[A]

So, Maureen, what's the difference when you say set an aspirational goal, what is the difference between doing that and setting a high bar for yourself and completely overshooting? Because again, as somebody that sits in a Lot of rooms with people. I will often have somebody come in and do something and I'm like, wait, you need 10 more years experience in a different company for that thing. So how do people balance? Where is aspirational enough and where is just farcical?

[B]

Because negotiations is persuasion. So this first part of it that I was talking about was persuading yourself. That's why it's so important to know your value and understand your worth. But the second part of that is now you have to persuade other people. And it's really hard to do that without data. And it's because data is sort of a universal language, it's objective. Right. So I can ask for anything if I can give you the data for it. Right. Know your market value. Right. Know price points, know your pricing strategy reflects all of that data. Right. In the negotiations, when you're asking for a raise and you know what, you're in your position at other companies in your industry, people are making. And you come in armed with that information as well as the data of, you know, what your accomplishments are, what you've managed to do in that position. When you come in armed with that, it feels like you're speaking truth to power.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

As opposed to this place of, well, I want this because I deserve it. Okay. That's cute. Right. But tell me why. Or, you know, I. I'm asking for this because I think I'm the best in my job at this through who's whose eyes. Right. This great Japanese proverb that says even a sheet of paper has two sides. Right. This only works if I understand what your side is so I can communicate it in a way that you will understand it and vice versa.

[A]

Isn't that so important? Making sure that you have run through what the other side's point of view is? Because again, so often it's so easy to be like, you know, I've got this goal, I know exactly what I want and I've got my information together. But you haven't considered what's happening with the person in front of you.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. But I have to say this. So I almost take preparation and split it into two sides. The first is always prepare from your perspective first, what do I want? What are my non negotiables, what are my goals? All of that have perfect clarity, like very lucid. And then you say, okay, now let me think about this person. What do I need to know about them? And I know you've talked about this. You may be one of the only people I know. That's like I love negotiations. I'm like, that's my girl. But it's this notion of being really prepared and really curious.

[A]

It is. And the curiosity is something that is so, so key. But I learned very early on because one of my very first jobs was, you know, I was the middleman. Like I was the person that nobody wanted to pay because there was somebody on this side and somebody on this side. And my job was to like broker the deal. And you learn early that, you know, a good negotiation isn't about winning or losing at all. It's about finding this like beautiful middle ground, you know, where something is mutually advantageous. And when you're kind of the middle man, the middle girl, you're like out of it. You could see that so clearly. But I think it's so hard when you are in one of those seats. And that's why I kind of love this idea of you talking about the role of listening. And it is so important to think about yourself first. But that listening piece has to come in where you understand the other side.

[B]

Absolutely. I think there's no greater power in negotiations than a curious mind.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Honestly.

[A]

So how do you negotiate though, without over justifying, you know, because I get that of coming in with all of the data, with a list of your accomplishments, knowing what you've bought to the company. But again, it can move into this of you kind of like feeling like you're in a position where you're like begging for something that you rightly deserve. What's the line? And how do you feel that out?

[B]

Really great question. I'm thinking about running it through some of the mistakes that I know that people make. Maybe space, maybe silence.

[A]

Oh, that's a hard one for people, isn't it? Oh, God. Just, I mean, make the ask and shut the fuck up.

[B]

Sit on your goddamn hands if you have to. Right? Shut it. And part of it. It's amazing how so much of it comes from not having self confidence. Because when you make that presentation, you've done all the work. Right. Because we want external validation. We expect it at that moment. Right. So we expect we're going to make the presentation and somebody's going to say, great. Most people won't. Right. And by the way, people think in silence. People don't speak through their thinking. Right. So give themselves a chance to think. So you've done your work, you've done your homework, you've come up with arguments, you've presented your case, you've done your work, you sit back and you just relish in just the accomplishment of having done that, right now the ball's in their court. Honor that. Let them show up with their counter to this proposal, right? The minute you start talking, it's as though you're saying, by the way, if you don't like it, which I see all the time, you know, we can negotiate this, right? Or this is negotiable immediately, you're saying, you know what? That number I gave you, I thought was already high. So we can negotiate it down. That's the immediate message that you're sending them. Because I probably shot too high so that we can negotiate this. If you just drop the mic and you sit back, especially if it has data, if it has that. That information associated with it. Now what they're thinking is, damn, that was good, right? Maybe they think it was really strong argument. I don't like it. But now I have to come back with my best game, right? Like, my counter has to be all that. Because what they said feels really strong.

[A]

So, Maury, where do you go when it turns in? When you're sitting opposite someone who is a really strong negotiator, and it gets combative when you feel like, okay, what I've done, I followed all the steps. It didn't necessarily land. I'm opposite somebody who's really good at this. And it moves into that place where it feels.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not where you wanted it to go.

[B]

Yes. And you start like, this is happening. You can feel it.

[A]

Why don't they understand? I said I followed all the tips.

[B]

Yes. What don't they understand? We never say, what don't I understand? They must be wrong. Can't they see it the way I see it? What's wrong with them? This, again, is quite simple. I mean, first of all, I'd say, breathe. Breath. Work is so important. And people don't give that enough. They say, think that's so simple, but the truth is that I don't know if you found yourself in this place, but I get really hard massages, right?

[A]

Like a good massage.

[B]

Like, dig deep, right? And my masseuse was laughing a while back. He's like. And he goes so hard. Anyway, so I know the moment he says, this is gonna be a little tough. Breathe. That means death is abound, right? Like, we are going in. And so he's like, take a breath. And I literally went. And he goes, that was a breath. It's because the anxiety, the thing I expected to be coming, I had anticipated it to be so bad that I couldn't even breathe through it. So this is the same thing. Conflict. Give yourself that breath. Let the oxygen fill your lungs, right? Because that oxygen actually is bringing you clarity, right? It's giving you a moment to retreat, even if it's just a moment. So that's the first thing. The second thing is we call this going to the balcony in negotiations, which means that when you are both right here and you're going at it, it's very hard to see somebody else's perspective. And it's also hard to evaluate your own, right? Because we're in it. We're deep, right? This is the mud we're wrestling, right? So when we talk about going to the balcony, it's like, if you can just envision this, it's sort of like lifting yourself up from that moment and saying, what is it that I'm not seeing? What is it that they're not seeing? Is there room, right? Is there something that we're missing? And so it's like almost that immediate evaluation of the situation. Some people are really good at doing that there. The other thing is, who said it has to be done today, right? Maybe you just say, you know what? Maybe we just need a little space, right? Let's just take a little time. Let's go for a walk. Or maybe you come at this tomorrow, and the American culture is so efficient. We're so hyper efficient. I always say, this is the only place where I know that we eat while we walk, while we take a call and listen to a podcast all at once, right? So take a moment, you know, go back. Go back to your corners. Y But really sort of ensure that they know the reason you're doing this is because you say something like, maybe we're missing something. Yeah, maybe I'm missing something.

[C]

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[A]

I always say that, I think so important for people to know that on one side of a negotiation, it's always usually more important for one side than it is the other. And it's all right. If you need some time, like, you don't need to make a decision to be fine with what's being offered to you, you can say, thank you. I need some time to think about this. And that is okay, too. Because it's your life. These are big decisions and not everything can be done in the moment. I wanted to ask you what you like in the kind of differences and the nuances of negotiating in a place that is like completely new to you versus somewhere where, you know, let's say you've been working in a place for a really long time. Like, are there, are there big differences between sort of where you're known versus if you're walking into something that is a brand new situation?

[B]

I mean, I think it could, that's really interesting. I think that it could go one of two ways. Right. Familiarity sometimes breeds bad habits.

[A]

Doesn't exist.

[B]

So a new location could be like a fresh start. It's sort of void of perceptions and biases and all those things and even yours of that place. Right. We associate certain places with certain things. But I think that it really goes back to the story that you're telling yourself, your own narrative. Right. And if you're narrative is one that's, that always leans towards anxiety and fear, then it doesn't matter, right? Because no matter where you are at, it's going to feel you're going to associate either the bad with that or at the new place, you're going to be like, oh, God, I'm never good at someplace new, or oh, I feel so uncomfortable, or they don't know me, or I wish I knew this place, I don't feel comfortable. So I think that whatever narrative you're telling yourself, you can control that. And so neither of those situations should feel uncomfortable or different. If it's new, learn, if it's old, reset. Right? And so all of these things come from a place of, let's just make sure that we're not selling ourselves short. Because truth be told, you can navigate anything with curiosity and you can navigate anything with experience. And so I think again, how we tell ourselves these stories becomes really important.

[A]

You think you can navigate well or negotiate well when you actually have less leverage.

[B]

Oh, yeah. What does less leverage mean? Leverage is perception. Right. All the studies show us that leverage has so little to do with the size of your company or the number of employees that you have or the amount of resources that you have. If somebody else thinks you have leverage, you have leverage. So leverage is all about how you show up. If you walk in a room, head held up high, you're smiling, you're shaking somebody's hand firmly, you're making eye contact, you own that room.

[A]

Oh, that matters.

[B]

Oh, it's the only thing that actually matters. Because they would be like, oh, she looks like she's the boss lady. Right. She looks confident. And then immediately they think that you, of course, have reason to feel that confident so you have leverage. You know, I always tell people, I'm like, you want leverage? Then tell yourself you have it. Walk in your power. This is why the power poses are so important. And you walk in with that. That I've got this. It's everything. Because they immediately think that you do.

[A]

I cannot believe I'm gonna ask you this question. Does the outfit matter? Yeah.

[B]

Yes, it does.

[A]

Is there research to say the outfit matters?

[B]

I think that. Well, I'm doing this sort of. This is. This is my own research. But I'll tell you why I think the outfit matters is because I know this to be true, is that I will never like. For me, I negotiate all the time. Because I teach, teaching is negotiations, big presentations, being on stage. If I am not comfortable, I don't care if 20 people tell me I look good. But if I don't feel like I look good, I know that I've given up some of my power. And so this may be counter to what you're thinking, but I'm not dressing for you. I'm dressing for me. And that's why I think the outfit matters.

[A]

Can you negotiate well on a zoom?

[B]

Yes. Hard, but yes.

[A]

Harder, though.

[B]

No, it is. It is. Because I believe that the energy we get off people really feeds us. It can direct us. What makes it hard is because we're also very distracted. Our level of concentration, I mean, it's so diminished. All the studies show us this. I know you know this. So the thing that becomes really important is that you know what your distractions are and you completely block them.

[A]

That. Yeah. Because you speak about this a lot.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Presence.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, be in the room.

[B]

Presence is power. Presence is power. Because one. You know, the two parts of this one is it feels really good for your counterpart. Right. You certainly don't want to ask a question and your phone buzzes and you're looking at your text before the person's about to answer the question. Because I know how I would feel if I was that person. I'd be like, oh, I'm competing with your text message. This answer is not going to be that important to you. So you know what? Why am I going to be open and honest or vulnerable even about this? Right. So do what's important to you, because clearly I'm not. Right. So it's so disrespectful. But the other thing is that if you get distracted, you are losing the ability to be strategic. Because part of listening is the ability to not just listen with your ears, but it's listening with your heart, it's listening with your mind, it's listening with your eyes. Right. That really connected. Mindful listening is impossible if you're not present. Right? So, zoom. If you get on a call, if you're negotiating. And by the way, there's a step before the negotiations, I think is even actually more important, which is that notion of, like, information sharing, information exchange is that step before. It's not transactional. It's the getting to know you stage. It's the building of the rapport, increased amount of curiosity at that moment. Because what you're saying is that we're going to negotiate something. That's the transactional piece. We're going to get there. But for right now, I just want to know who you are. Right.

[A]

And always in that. So lost.

[B]

But it feels so good. It feels so good when you know that some. I don't know about you. I'm sure that almost everybody you sit with is super interested in you. But, you know, but this notion of, like, oh, they actually care what I want to say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They see me. I mean, every human being wants nothing more than to be seen and to be heard. Right? And so when you can grant somebody that gift and say, you know what, yeah, there's a transaction that's actually not even the. That important. You write this right here. This is the most important thing. So tell me about yourself. Or. Or what's that painting you have behind you that's really beautiful? Or, oh, does. Is that your son? Who does. Is he playing football? Oh, my God, my son plays football, too. How do you feel about that? Do you get a little worried about it? You know, now what you're saying is. And by the way, never mind the fact that you come in knowing what college they went to, what their job was, all of that. Right. But when you say that to somebody, what you're really saying is, I'm giving you the gift of seeing you, and there's nothing more important in this moment than you.

[A]

Oh, Maury, I am so happy that you said that because it, to me, it's just. It's almost like a lost art. You know, I have been working for so many years, and so, you know, the goal when I was the middleman was always to get in front of the people. Like, to take your relationship off of the phone, off of the email, and just get in person with people, because in person with people, you know, you'd see their nail color, you would understand like what tube stop they got off of you talk to them about their kids, they'd walk in and tell you something about their day, you'd create a connection. And through that, you know, I remember like writing down, you know, I'd be like, Jeff from Mercedes has three children and he loves, you know, going to Spain, like whatever, but like just that, the immediacy of the connection and where your relationship goes when you can be like, oh, how was your vacation in Spain? And now I feel like because of so much that's happened in the wider culture, but certainly in the workplace, we stopped thinking it was a good idea to get to know people. Our clients, our vendors, our colleagues. You know, it's like maybe we don't feel as comfortable in asking those questions. But to me it's like, how do you forget, like just the negotiation piece? Like, how do you do business with people that you don't know how to

[B]

do business with people you don't know? And how do you expect this to become more than a one time deal for any entrepreneur, any business owner? You know, you don't want that one time deal. You want business in perpetuity. Right. Where relationships actually matter. And the other thing is, you may decide that this business isn't right for you at all. And how are you going to discern that if you already gone in and signed a contract? Right. So you treat this as an opportunity to learn when your main objective is not the end result, but the journey and the conversation and the connection. And you know what, if I end up not doing this deal, at least I've learned a lot about you, you know, and if not today, maybe in the future.

[A]

Because maybe in the future. Life is long.

[B]

Life is long. And guess what? You've so enjoyed this conversation with me that if today you can't afford my services, when you can, you're gonna be like, you know what, I really see you then. Emma, she was great. I really enjoyed that. Can we go back to Emma? And you've now sort of sown the seed, right? And that's where long term opportunities come from.

[A]

Yeah. And I can't tell you how many times that's happened in my career that something hasn't been right for right now, but it's come back around full circle and then you've kind of got the inevitability that when you're in business, when you're employed, what your professional situation is, shit goes wrong. And when you're in relationship with someone, your ability to make things right, to get on the same team and say, you know what? Like, we need to work through this problem, situation, emergency. When you know each other, when you've bothered to get to know one another beyond the relationship that you're in, the immediate one, everything changes. Everything, everything changes. You do stuff together and you figure it out, and, you know, things just become better and strong. And I just feel like it's interesting to me that that's somewhat lost a little bit now.

[B]

Oh, yeah, well, there's so much lost these days. The power of connection, the power of conversation. I mean, the minute conversations became reduced to, like, text messages. Right. And the humanity that's lost in that. It's really incredible because, again, it's all in favor of the efficiency. To me, you know, negotiations is so elegant. It's this, like, beautiful dance. Like, I've got one painting in my apartment. It's the. This painting of this couple doing the tango. That is negotiations to me. It's this beautiful, elegant back and forth, and the rhythm and the. When I step forward, you're moving back and we trust and we're moving together. The flow.

[A]

I love the idea that you have, like, a negotiation painted.

[B]

Yeah. It's just I see them, and I think that's the best. By the way, I feel like they're negotiating. Yeah. They're in trust, they're moving together, and one can't be ahead of the other, and the other can't be ahead of the other. We flow because we know each other. We flow because we are in rhythm. But understanding, that's information exchange. So if that's information exchange, if that is done well, then this next stage, believe it or not, that can all be done by email. Interesting. Now negotiate a contract with you because

[A]

you have enough information, you've gathered the data, you've done the work before you get into the room, and you're armed with exactly what you need.

[B]

When you spend time getting to know each other, then you're less likely to question someone's intentions. What I'm trying to communicate to you, you're likely to receive it the way I mean it, or at least come a lot closer. That delta is not as big, right?

[A]

Yeah. Or at least give somebody the benefit of the doubt, because you know what type of person they are and what their intentions are.

[B]

They've sat with you, they've talked to you. Right. And if you do information exchange really well, by the time somebody makes an opening offer, it should not be this, like this surprise like, how dare you? It should be like, oh, I knew there were going to be expensive. But they told me all about their story. They told me how they do business. They told me what their products, the raw materials they use. I mean, you're in the clothing manufacturing business, right? It makes a difference, right?

[A]

It makes a difference, right.

[B]

And so if you have educated me through information exchange about all of that, I understand your value proposition. So I can assume buying something from skims is going to have a certain feel to it. It's going to have a different quality. And the quality assurance and the care that goes into it, it will, Maury, I know this. That's why I buy SK that's because I know what I'm getting. Because I know. And nevermind that. By the time I put it on, it feels a certain way. But I'm willing to pay the price because you've told me why I should.

[A]

How do you teach people to deal with rejection without internalizing it?

[B]

Because they're not saying no to you, they're saying no to that thing. It's not about me, right?

[A]

Not creating some distance.

[B]

This doesn't work for you. You're allowed not to like this, right? Doesn't mean you don't like me. It doesn't mean that you're rejecting Maury. And guess what? I love a good no. I love a good no. By that, I mean if you say no, I'm going right back to that, like, childhood mindset where I'm like, tell me why it doesn't work. Or I can understand, this may not be right for you, but give me more information.

[A]

And so few people do that, Pa.

[B]

Because they hear no. They're like, yeah, you know the dagger?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because immediately you're saying they're rejecting me. No, they are not rejecting me.

[A]

But there's so much to learn from rejection, right?

[B]

Yeah, but ask the question.

[A]

Ask the question.

[B]

That door closed.

[A]

But you gotta be brave.

[B]

One will certainly. And they have the right, they have the right to say no. It wasn't right for them, right? So instead of saying, oh, I understand, or worse yet, well, can we lower the price for you? You know? No, that didn't work. I totally understand. Give me more information. We'd love to do business with you. Maybe this isn't the right time or what have you, but we just give me more, let me know what, what maybe could work or what could we have done better, right? If not now, then maybe later. But you learn from those, right? And I think you become better business person for it. I think it builds resilience, it builds grit. Right. But nobody's no is going to stop me.

[A]

What is the one mindset shift you would impart and you would love people to know when it comes to negotiation, if there was just one thing, you've

[B]

done this before, you've done this forever. It's really important for me for people to understand that this is not new. You are experienced. I've never stood in front of an audience that is not experienced in negotiations. But you're not counting those as moments. Right? And so you think you're not good at this. Of course you're good. I mean, even if you're sitting here, that means you've survived multiple bad negotiations, but also have had great wins. Right? So you've done this before. You've done this before, right? It may look new, it may look different, but you know, it's your experience. And can you get better always? But we can get better at everything always. I mean, I feel almost uncomfortable. People are like, she's a negotiations expert. Because expert feels so final. Expert almost says, I have nowhere to go from here. I know everything. No, every person is new, every conversation is new. I like relish those things. And so, you know, can you get better? Yes. But are you better at this than you think you are? Emma, 99.999% of the time, that's a yes. You're just not giving yourself credit.

[A]

I mean, that's really good information. So I asked my audience before you got here if they would ask some questions. Will you take them directly from. I have my. I've got my phone. Oh, God, there's so many. You know, what do you know what's so interesting?

[B]

I'm getting nervous looking at you.

[A]

No, it's funny. I mean, there's a lot of questions that talk about guilt here. That's so interesting. Like what? You know, it's like, how do I do this in a non invasive way? How do I ask in a kind way? How do I not feel? I mean, that's just wild. People are worried about how the person on the other side was feels. How much should we be concerned about what the person on the other side is feeling? And not to overstate your ask and ask for too much.

[B]

Oh, God, no, that second part. No, I'll go there a second. But this notion of I do believe that likability matters. I do. Because I think that no matter who this person is, you have to come at it from a place of respect. I think people will say more, will open up More will be more vulnerable, will be likely to do business with you. Again, if there is this notion of likability. And that doesn't mean you have to like me. That just means I'm going to show up and I'm going to listen to you. That means I'm going to show up and pay attention to you. That means that all the devices are shut off. I am at that moment, again, making you feel really important. And so that's really the only thing you owe them. Right? That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Be respectful. And people often then think that what you're asking for is the most important thing. It's actually how you're asking for it that's important. Important, Right. So instead of worrying about. Am I asking for too much? Worry about how you can feel, make them feel comfortable and respected and create that openness in that conversation. How you ask it matters. It really does. And that's why I can't understand the people that come in and the brute force and the aggression and all that. I don't think that anybody likes working with somebody who belittles them.

[A]

No way. That's my next question. What is the wrong way to negotiate?

[B]

There is no wrong way, Emma. I really wholeheartedly believe that, because. Wrong for who? I mean, if I am somebody that says there's no prescriptive way, like bring yourself and be authentic. For somebody who's aggressive in nature, they've probably had a lot of successes. So who am I to turn around and say, because I don't negotiate that way, that is the wrong way. Now again, can you improve? Yes. Or there's. Even if you are somebody that. That has that more sort of aggressive personality, are there things that you can do to improve? I would say yes. Make sure that you are paying more attention to people. Make sure that you have more questions for them. Make sure that you're curious. But I can't tell somebody that you are wrong in the way you are negotiating because you are different than me.

[A]

This is the last question. How do I. This is such a sweet question. How do I make sure I don't walk away with any regret?

[B]

So regret. Regret is a really powerful feeling. I used to think that regret was like the worst thing in the world. And I write about it in my book. I used to refer to it as like this heavy blanket that we wear. Like, it's very hard to get rid of regret. I can get angry. I'll go to a boxing class, right? Go for a Run. Like, I can be sad and I can get over that, but because I'm somebody that lives in my head, so much regret would just take over and, oh, my God, I should have and would have and why didn't I? And all the rest of it. And then I realized that here's the thing, like, the. Again the burdening of myself and not being able to move past that, because what is all that gonna do? I'm not gonna learn anything from it.

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

So I started to look at regret very differently and started to think this. First of all, if I regret it, that means it was meaningful to me. That conversation, that negotiations, that moment. And I let myself feel it because I feel like if I bottle it up, it'll show up some other way, right? But then I'm like, okay, so what could you have done better, right? What did you learn from it? What could you have done differently, right? And now what regret is allowing me to do is that if something is that important to me, how can I be better the next time? Because what I've now immediately done is I like controlling the things that I can control because only those things will allow me to get better. So if I can learn, if regret becomes a moment in time where I've learned a lesson not only to understand what was worth fighting for, but also how I could have done that better, then regret actually becomes, in some ways, kind of magical. Because it's a life lesson. It's a moment, right? But you're not dwelling in it, because then it feels like you are giving up your power. Use regret as an opportunity to feel actually better and more powerful and more educated and just learn. Why is it so hard for us to be present all the time? Because most of us are either living in the past, thinking about all the things we should have done differently, regret, or living in the future and all the things I'm supposed to do. But that part right in the middle, which is so beautiful. I'm not trying to regret this too, right? And I'm trying to own this moment. I'm trying to be in it. Is it always good? Hell, no. When has my life ever been good? All the time. Never. Right. But I don't wanna miss those moments. Oh, yeah. And so don't regret this now. Like, do something with what you have in your power in this moment. Like, you can change it, you can learn from it, you can do something with it, but don't give away this moment. Like, do something with it.

[A]

I love your thinking about that. And I, you know, as a Mother, I try to teach my kids. I'm like, guys, if it feels terrible, it's a teacher. And, you know, in the most simple way, it's my way of explaining to them, like, look for some kind of lesson in this. Like, look for whatever it's trying to. And I feel like, you know, had. I have had that type of information in my 20s that some of this stuff that felt so bad in the moment was actually there to teach me something. It just is so, so useful. So I love your. I love your framing of that. I really, really do.

[B]

So I want to feel like this all meant something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because it does.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Because it does.

[B]

It really does.

[A]

Okay, my love, I just have a few rapid fire questions for you. You ready?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm the worst at rapid fire. We all know, because she's long winded. All right. What is the hardest thing that you ever have had to ask for in your career?

[B]

You know, actually, those moments have not been working for other people. They've been working for myself, probably with my relationship with my business partner. And I think it's because we were probably not meant to be in business together to begin with, but the differences in values. I was very young. He was much older than me, and it was really hard to sort of exercise my power or really my voice because I didn't believe in myself, because I bought into this notion of. Because I was younger and less experienced, I must have not been right or I didn't know. It was feeling like I was in a prison that I created. And the best part of it was when I finally actually did negotiate it in a way that was meaningful to me, where I actually believed in whatever the outcome was, I could live with it because I was asking for it. And it was my voice, and it was my values and it was my power that even though that outcome was, by anybody's standards, was not very favorable, it was the most freeing moment ever because I finally used negotiations as the opportunity to speak my voice. I stood in my truth, and that really matters.

[A]

This might actually answer this next question, but what's a negotiation that you're proud of not because you won, but because you handled it well.

[B]

Handled it well. I don't know if I handled it well. I handled it. When I told my father I didn't want to be a doctor, most would argue it came way too late. Like, I went through all the things, right? I went through college, pre med. I took the MCATs twice.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, God. Like, the. The amount of pain that I went through Because I was trying to fulfill, again, his promise, my promise to him or what he wanted for me. And finally when I said it, I mean, it was like the worst of things. I let him down. So I don't know if I handled it well, but I did it.

[A]

And here you are.

[B]

Here I am.

[A]

What's one word you've had to unlearn in negotiation?

[B]

Impossible. I love that all things are possible, even if. Even if it doesn't work out. It's not that it was impossible, but maybe it wasn't the right thing. Not impossible. I think that a lot of people walk into negotiations and again, this comes from the scarcity mindset, where they're like, either it's me or you, or there's never going to be a way. We're so far apart on this, you immediately relinquish the ability to problem solve. You immediately relinquish this notion of, together we can find a way. And so we kind of get lazy because we're like, can't be done. Look, possibility takes hope, promise, and work.

[A]

What's the question that you always ask before a negotiation?

[B]

For myself, it's, have I asked for enough? Because I know that I've had the tendency to undervalue myself. Am I afraid to ask for more? Have I understood what I'm worth? Like, really, that notion of. And it used to be, have I asked for too much? Which is part of the questions that you were reading to me. So the women, the guilt, right? Not anymore. The thing is, have I asked for enough? Should I ask for, you know, like, pushing myself of other people? A lot of times it actually has less to do with that particular negotiations, but more about something bigger. What's important to you? What do you want to do in five years? Like, if it's an employee, it's like, what do you want to do in five years? What do you want to do in 10 years? Because what I'm indicating is that maybe I don't have enough to pay you today, but I want to know what's important to you so that in some other way I can compensate for that and make you sort of well on your way to this next level of your journey. Right. But what's important to you? Like, we don't ever ask. We sort of assume, and we ask less when we know them. So in marriages, in relationships and friendships, because we think we know everything there is to know about this person. And so we stop listening. We're not curious anymore. But just that notion of what matters to you. And sometimes people Are, like, dumbfounded because they're like, huh? Why does that matter? Because you matter what matters to you? And I think that those are really. Because it tells me things about them. It tells me if their goals are short term or long term. It tells me that, you know, something that's really meaningful for them, that's maybe different than this negotiations, but maybe this can be a part of. Part of that bigger picture for them. And it feels like you're allowing them space. It feels like you want more from them than just a thing.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and I love that when you talk about relationships because it changes. We're talking just about people. And, you know, those things really shift and they change. All right, my final question for you. What is a book that changed your life?

[B]

Changed my life. So the one book that's been consistently. It's so boring. But the one book that's been consistently in my, like, you know, on my syllabus is required reading. It is how to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Classic, Classic.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

And I sort of got goosebumps just now, but I think that.

[A]

But it is. It's so good. And so you said you recommend that on your syllabus. It's a must read.

[B]

It's a must read. Read one. I think it tells my students immediately what to expect from the class because I do mindset work. Like I'm. This is. If you want a transactional class, you're in the wrong class. You're going to learn all of that, but you're going to learn how to be a better person, a better human. And you're going to know that I come at this from a place of humanity. And so that's more important to me than any transaction you're ever going to do. Because I think if you don't have this, you don't have that. So this is about to be some internal, like, messy. Look at yourself. Here's the mirror. Or, let's work through this class. And it's also going to be a reminder of things that I think we so undervalued. And here we are in the world. Right? But how to treat people. How, like, kindness matters. How empathy is a superpower, it's not weakness. How. Yeah, there's like, if you read the book for those people that have it, I mean, it takes you 10 minutes to get through it.

[A]

I mean, read the book and half

[B]

the time you go like, yeah, that's obviously, yeah, but if it's so obvious, why don't we do it? When have we forgotten to notice people or when have we.

[A]

It's a great reminder book. It's like a. It's a good book for like the start of something. You know, it's like to just like get your framing correct.

[B]

Yes. We just need to be reminded that it's really important to treat people well.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

Because how else do we expect to be treated? Well. Right.

[A]

It's the start and the end of everything.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It really is. Mori, thank you so much. You taught us so much and I'm so grateful to you. Thank you.

[B]

I'm so grateful for this opportunity. I really.

[A]

You'll be brilliant. Thank you.

[D]

If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend

[A]

who'll be so, so grateful.

[D]

Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, emma Greed, Ashley McShan, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy, Leah Rees, Dennis Arsha Saludja, Lauren Legrasso, Producer, KK Sublime.

[A]

Stephen Key is our senior producer.

[D]

Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney,

[A]

Andrew Steele and Carlos Delgado.

[D]

Social media by Olivia Homan, Katherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and wme. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meekol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can can dm me at Aspire with Emma greed. Greed is spelled G r e D e. That's Aspire A s P I r e with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website emagreed me.