← Aspire with Emma Grede
Aspire with Emma Grede
The Founder Playbook: How Michael Rubin Built Fanatics by Betting on Obsession
01:18:27
Loading summary
Transcript315 lines
- [00:00]
Michael Rubin
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Emma Grede
Welcome to the Aspire Podcast with me, Emma Greed. If you're serious about doing something big, today's episode is so for you. Whether you're launching a brand or scaling a company or just dreaming about your first move, my guest today is someone who's done all of it over and over again. He's not just a founder, but he's a builder, a visionary, and a complete master of culture. And one of the most relentless entrepreneurs that I know. We also happen to be in business together on my new sports apparel brand with Kristin Juszczyk. Off season, I'm talking about the one and only Michael Rubin. Michael started his first business at just eight years old, and since then he's built and sold companies worth billions of dollars. He's now the founder and CEO of Fanatics, who are a global digital sports platform valued at over $25 billion. What makes Michael different is his ability to spot opportunity where others don't, to move fast and to build with precision at massive scale. Welcome to the show, Michael. If you've ever tried starting a business, you know it shouldn't be so complicated. That's why I'm all about Northwest Registered Agent. They make it easy. We're talking your full business identity in just 10 clicks and and 10 minutes. Seriously. Get more with Northwest. More privacy, more support, and more freedom to run your business your way. For just $39 plus state fees, they'll form your business, create a custom website, and even help you build a local presence no matter where you are. They've been doing this for nearly 30 years. Real business experts, real solutions all in one easy to use account. From formation paperwork to trademark registration to custom domains, it's your one stop shop. Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand and set up your business in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com aspire and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest registered agent@northwestregisteredagent.com Aspire as someone who spends my days leading companies, making appearances, taping this podcast, mothering four kids and so, so much more, it's really important for me to stay well and energized. That's why I'm a big supplements girl. I love my supplements. I keep them in my purse every day and I never forget to take them. We all know how hard it can be to find clean, effective and trustworthy supplements. Taking care of yourself shouldn't be that complicated. That's what makes Symbiotica different. They're completely changing the wellness game. Their products are clean, science backed and easy for your body to absorb. No gimmicks, just pure high quality ingredients you can trust. Whether it's self care or showing appreciation, Symbiotica products are a thoughtful way to invest in well being. Their liposomal vitamin C supports glowing skin and a strong immune system. It's a daily staple for your routine. These products are super easy to use. No pills, just squeeze from the pouch. Symbiotica's high quality formulations really do make wellness feel similar, simple and effective. Go to symbiotica.com aspire to get 20 off plus free shipping. That's C Y M B I O T I K A.com aspire for 20% off plus free shipping I am so happy to have you on the Aspire podcast. I cannot tell you how happy I am when I text you the immediate. Unsurprising but immediate yes. That came back just like made me die. Like totally die.
- [03:46]
Michael Rubin
Well, first of all, I'm honored to be here with you, number one. Number two, you get the fastest yes of anybody because I have so much respect for you. You're a beast and I like to learn from you. So looking forward to having fun today.
- [03:57]
Emma Grede
Honestly, what I really want to get out today. And I think that so many of the people that will be listening just want to understand how you've been successful. And what I love about you is that you talk like no bs. You're extremely truthful, extremely transparent. And I think in this time where it feels like people are and so deliberate about what they say, it's really refreshing to hear from someone like you.
- [04:22]
Michael Rubin
You know, first of all, I think authenticity is so important. I think you have to be yourself. And I think I couldn't be anything other than that because people would see through it and say, he's full of shit. So, you know, for me it's just like always telling you what I think, how I feel, being real bad. I think people then trust you and a lot of good things happen.
- [04:38]
Emma Grede
No, that's true. And what's really interesting is how that extends to your customers as well. I think that what you do feel so authentic to you, but I want to kind of get into a bit of your origin story and understand it, you know, because, and I'm sure you've told this so many times in my.
- [04:54]
Michael Rubin
Life, one or two times in my life.
- [04:57]
Emma Grede
I don't want to belabor the point, but I do want to understand a little bit. You grew up in Philadelphia. It feels like you were just a born hustler. But you have been in business for a very long time and since you were a kid, essentially.
- [05:07]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. Look, I really believe people gravitate to what they do best at. And I think a lot of people think I'm being self deprecating when I say, like, I really was an awful student. Like I had every learning disability you could possibly have. My mom was a psychiatrist, dad was a veterinarian. So they were like, used to like sophisticated, smart people. And I just came out of the womb different. So I really struggled in school always, you know, couldn't speak well, couldn't read well, you know, struggle with my grades. And so for that reason I hated school. Like I hate, I didn't dislike it, I hated it.
- [05:42]
Emma Grede
Yeah.
- [05:42]
Michael Rubin
And by the way, as bad as a student as I was, I was a pretty shitty athlete too. Like I just, you know, I didn't have good hand eye coordination. I just wasn't what I was good at. So at a really young age, I loved business. Like I loved it with every bit of my heart. And so I remember, you know, I can go back to when I was eight years older. I probably had four or five different jobs. I mean, I was, you know, buying seeds like in a catalog and selling them door to door. When it would snow in Philadelphia, I would hire five, six kids to work for me and I would sell the Snow, shoveling for 20 bucks a driveway and then, you know, pay the guys to work for me. And I was, you know, buying and selling trading cards and I was making stationary in the computer. So I was good at that. So I gravitate to what I was good at. And you know, for me I absolutely loved it.
- [06:27]
Emma Grede
And when you were that young, like when you're 8 years old, what was the thrill for you then? Because it's obviously so different when, you know, you don't, you don't have bills to pay, you don't have anything. Like what was the thrill of actually going out and making those like, you know, partnerships of like people in your neighborhood?
- [06:42]
Michael Rubin
You know, I think the biggest thrill was being good at something. It was like, you know, if you're not a good student, you know, if you're not a good athlete, you know, that might not make you feel good, but like, if you're really good in business and you see you have that superpower, even at a really young age, it makes you feel good. And so I've worked non stop since I've been 8 years old. And I felt like it's the greatest honor in the world. And even Today, people say to me, like, people like, I've always had an incredible work ethics, one of my best skills. But, like, I'm working the hardest I've ever worked, and I love it. It doesn't feel like work. It's like I'm honored to get to learn and grow every single day. And I'm just picking up tidbits in every conversation I have. So it's like, you know, I go back to when I was 8 years old and just know it felt good to get to do what I do. And it doesn't feel any different today. Just feels great.
- [07:29]
Emma Grede
I love that you say you actually work harder now. So at this level of success, when you have a company that's worth $25 billion, you think you're working harder than you did in your, you know, in your 20s and your 30s and your early 40s when you were actually, like, building.
- [07:44]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. Even though, you know, we're, you know, our business would be over $9 billion this year, over $11 billion in revenue next year. We have 22,000 people. I feel like a startup, and I. And I want to always have that mentality. One of the things I feel.
- [07:55]
Emma Grede
You feel like a startup with a $25 billion valuation?
- [07:58]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, I feel like a startup. I feel like we're just getting going. And look, here's the reality that's humble. I have so much fear about, and fear, in a good way, like, fear that drives me about what are all the things we're not doing right? And by the way, when I go through our business, there's a lot of things we do well, and there's a lot of things we don't do well. I don't want to talk about what we do good. I want to talk about what we don't do well so we can make it better. And so, you know, I think you have to have that startup mentality, that entrepreneur's mentality that's always driving. I think you lose your edge, and then, quite frankly, I think somebody takes you out and it's over.
- [08:30]
Emma Grede
So, I mean, I would imagine that keeping that mentality, that. That startup mentality and that kind of drive, I get that you can have that as the founder, but how does that actually manifest within the company? How do you make everybody else? Because when you have a company with that, you know, that many people, what you.
- [08:46]
Michael Rubin
22,000 people.
- [08:47]
Emma Grede
22,000 people. So I get it. But you're going to have an executive leadership team and senior leaders. How do you create the conditions and the environment for Them to all feel.
- [08:58]
Michael Rubin
Like, yeah, so first, our company is not for everyone. Like we tell people, you know, this is an intense company. You know, we're going to keep pushing. You know, it may not be for you.
- [09:08]
Emma Grede
When do you tell them that? In the interview, definitely.
- [09:11]
Michael Rubin
But by the way, when I go to hire people at my level, level down, I try to scare people away to see what they're made of. I know you know exactly what I'm talking about. Like, you know, are they going to think, you know, you're crazy when you call them at 6:00 in the morning or, you know, 11:00 in the night or when they get email? I don't call people in the middle of the night, but I send emails in the middle of night. Are they going to think that's crazy? They're going to like that? Is that going to drive them? Are we going to like inspire people together? They're going to not be made for it. And so, you know, to me, I think it starts with leadership. Leadership is really important. You've got to have a vision and get people to buy into your vision. Communication's so important. Like, it's not like we have 50 people when you have 22,000 people. You have to communicate and get your message out to everybody. Make sure you've got people aligned and working together. And I think that's where a lot of big companies, you know, they, they get off track. They're more concerned with like the different corporate bullshit that you're supposed to have at a company of like, you know, the memos from the different departments that tell you the things you want to know. I'm like, I don't even read any of that shit from us. Like, I'm focused on how do we grow our business, how do we keep pushing. And if you really think about it, why am I working the hardest I've ever worked? You know, we were only in the business that we call fanatics. Commerce. That's the fangirl business. That's where I started. We were only in that business till 2020. Now we have three businesses. We have the fan gear business, which is called F. Commerce. We have the collectibles business, which is primarily trading cards. And we have the betting and gaming business. We only launched the betting in the gaming business. Our first dollar of revenue was last year. This year we've been close to a billion dollars in revenue. Year two, okay, Year two, our collectibles business, is it profitable? Gaming business is not profitable. We're investing aggressively.
- [10:48]
Emma Grede
It's all right? Cause I know you're profitable. And then the other two.
- [10:51]
Michael Rubin
Look, the collectibles and trading card business are very good business. Commerce business is a big business that's grown its profitability. But for us, think about the trading card and collectibles business. That idea popped in my brain the day before Thanksgiving of 2020. That business next year will be a $3 billion business.
- [11:10]
Emma Grede
That's crazy.
- [11:11]
Michael Rubin
Okay? So it shows you when you get something right, how quickly you can do it. But we've really gone from one business to three businesses. And then how do you bring it all together for the fan? And so that takes. You have to be on top of it. Like, one of the things that we don't probably talk enough about. I think one of the key jobs of a leader is to stop dumb shit from happening. Okay? And you know I'm right when I say this, like, how many times you, like, what the fuck? Like, why is someone thinking this? Why is someone doing it? So as a leader, you need to be on top of your business. You need to make sure you're. You're working with your. Your team, you're paying attention to what's going on. And sometimes you just need to stop dumb things from happening. So it's like one, you need to lead the organization. You need to have the right vision, get everyone bought in. But then when you're growing very fast, when you go from one business to three businesses, you go from 8,000 people to 22,000 people. Like, you know, kind of crazy shit can happen. So you gotta be on your business to stop that from happening. So there's so much to do in any given day for what we do.
- [12:05]
Emma Grede
I love the way that you talk about that actually, like, stopping dumb shit from happening. Because I feel like, as a leader, and you spoke about it as well, like, this idea of being this excellent communicator, right? My job is to paint the vision, make sure everybody understands what are the three most important things that we're doing and how we all collectively go in towards those things. And that takes you being a really amazing communicator, being an excellent, like, almost like a salesperson to your own organization. I know what, like, my strengths are, is that I can tell everybody, like, hey, guys, we're going this way. This is how we're going to get there all. Come with me. When you think about your strengths as a leader and what's got you ultimately to where you are today with really, I mean, quite unbelievable success. And I really want to talk about what's happened to you earlier in your career to get to where you are. But what do you think the leadership qualities are that have got you to where you are today?
- [12:57]
Michael Rubin
Well, I think I have some really good ones. I also think I have some bad ones.
- [13:00]
Emma Grede
Of course. We all do.
- [13:01]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. So I think the first thing is you do need to have, like, one of the things I think I'm pretty good at is coming up with a big idea and then sizing up. Like, you need something that's good for the consumer. In our case, good for the fan, but also something that's a good business. So I'm pretty good at figuring out, is this a big and good idea, and is it also a good business?
- [13:21]
Emma Grede
I.
- [13:21]
Michael Rubin
A lot of people come up with great ideas, but they're bad businesses.
- [13:23]
Emma Grede
Yeah, totally.
- [13:24]
Michael Rubin
Okay. And by the way, you and I have seen these things before. You know, so many. They have a great idea, it seems like it's a great thing, but actually it's not a good business. So I'm pretty good at first having the common sense to figure that out. I think we go back to, like, as a founder, a CEO, you do need to be a really good communicator to let people know, you know, kind of, what are we doing? What are we going after? Bringing teams together is really important. That's something I got. I've got a lot better. Better over the last 10 years because as a decent sized company now, like, you need the greatest people in the world to do what we do, and if you don't, you absolutely fail. So I'm unrelenting from that perspective. Like, when I think someone can make a difference to our company, I'll fly anywhere in the world to recruit them. The amount of people have said to me, like, hey, Michael, like, hey, you know, I made so much money. I'm not into doing this. I don't want to do this. I'm like, watch this. Yeah, I get on a plane, I'll go see them, I'll convince them why this is a great idea. And before you know it, we're building together. So, you know, unfortunately, a lot of the people that are my senior leaders, they've been really successful in their business career and financially. Before they joined me, they didn't need to do this. They. They bought into the vision, the idea of what they want to do together with us. And so I think being able to sell that vision, be able to get somebody on board is so important. But if you don't get the right people at the top, you have no shot. So when you look at your team, if you don't have, you know, your direct reports, your key people that are really A's, then you're dead. Because A's don't go to work for B's. Okay? Never gonna happen. An A person is never gonna go to work for B. And if a person goes to work for B, they're gonna move on, okay, pretty quickly. So you need A's, A's in the top. I think when shit's not working, I know how to rip the band aid off. Like, I am not scared about that.
- [15:03]
Emma Grede
Are you quick with that?
- [15:04]
Michael Rubin
You're like, yeah, like, I will throw shit against the wall, but when it doesn't work, like, fuck it, move on. Like, I don't care at all. And so I think part of being, you know, having had so many failures in my life, having learned from so many of those failures, it gives me great confidence to go for things and, you know, not have any fear about. If it doesn't work, we're just going to rip the band aid off. I mean, think about what we've done in the past four years. We were only in the, you know, fangirl business, which now is, you know, this year it's about a $7 billion business. And we started the collectibles business, we started the gaming business within the collectibles business, we started a live commerce platform, a marketplace. We started fanatics events business. We started. But by the way, I started an NFT business. Four months into that, I was like, this isn't a real business. It's a bullshit business. And I knew, okay, we're getting out of it. I got the investors the money back. I'm like, I'm moving on.
- [15:57]
Emma Grede
But I love that you would do that within four months, right? Because in that moment, like, what was this? Just after Covid, we were in NFT Madness. I wonder, like, because you've had so much success, have the failures become easier to deal with? Do you just fail less now? Because I know earlier in your career, you really, I mean, you have come really close to the line with a couple of businesses, right? It's like, it's not all been like billions and billions of dollars and you making great decisions all over the show.
- [16:25]
Michael Rubin
I've seen death in its eyes, Death.
- [16:27]
Emma Grede
In its eyes so many times.
- [16:29]
Michael Rubin
I'm sorry, I got. Tasting that. That's fun.
- [16:31]
Emma Grede
Okay, stop it. Wait a minute. You are gonna seriously sit here and tell me that when that's happening? Did you. I mean, when you say, I saw death in its Eyes. Does that mean, like, everything's on the line for you? Like your home's on the line? Or is it like you're just.
- [16:45]
Michael Rubin
Many times.
- [16:46]
Emma Grede
No. How is that fun? That could be fun.
- [16:48]
Michael Rubin
It's fun. It's fun. It's like. Cause I remember even recently, the last time that I really thought I was done was 2009. We're in the middle of the financial crisis. My stock in my company had been worth $250 million. It went down by 90%.
- [17:05]
Emma Grede
Okay, so you're sitting there. My net worth $25 million in stock.
- [17:09]
Michael Rubin
Which wasn't sellable, by the way, because the market crashed. And then I had maybe my total net worth in 2009 was $10 million outside of the $25 million stock I had. And by the way, I probably had $15 million in real estate. So I had a negative net worth. Okay. I remember coming home, I was calm as a cucumber.
- [17:27]
Emma Grede
It was, get out of it. Are you serious?
- [17:29]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. Cause you know what I mean.
- [17:30]
Emma Grede
But what is it? Where did. Okay, so tell me.
- [17:32]
Michael Rubin
Cause I wasn't scared of failing. Here's what I knew. If I fell apart and it was all over, I would just do it again and it would be fun.
- [17:39]
Emma Grede
First of all, I have absolutely no doubt. But where does it come from in you that you could have. You could be right on the brink like that, Right? If you trace it back and think, okay, I could build it all again, I get it. Because you've shown that you can do it over and over again, and you can find these pockets of billion dollar businesses seemingly everywhere. But where do you get that from? What in your life has signaled to you that you can just bounce back?
- [18:04]
Michael Rubin
I think ever since I was a little kid, I have not had fear in business. I've just always been fearless like that. And so it doesn't even seem off to me. I think a lot of entrepreneurs think that way. I mean, it doesn't. You know, no matter what you tell me, I'm like, okay, how do we deal with it? Because you want to keep everyone calm, cool, and collected all times. Think about Tom Brady when He was down 283 against the Atlanta Falcons. Do you think he was in there saying, like, I'm dejected, I'm quitting? Because he's like, fuck that. I'm going to figure out how to do this.
- [18:35]
Emma Grede
Is that what you think about in those moments or you just, like, you go into yourself?
- [18:39]
Michael Rubin
It's. It's. When I work the absolute hardest is like, that's when you need to step up. And you know when the game's on the line, when you're losing, that's when you have to work the smartest and the hardest. And I always work hard, but that's when, like, nothing's getting in the way. It's like you have tunnel vision.
- [18:53]
Emma Grede
So what do you do in that moment? Your stock is worth almost nothing. You owe more than you're actually worth. You're sitting there with a company that's been essentially completely devalued by the crash. Then what goes through your head? Like, what do you do next?
- [19:06]
Michael Rubin
So I owed J.P. morgan $50 million from 2008. I kept paying them back and I got it down to $3 million. I couldn't get the money. Like I had called friends, no one like I could.
- [19:19]
Emma Grede
There was no one's coming out.
- [19:20]
Michael Rubin
2009, nobody's coming out.
- [19:22]
Emma Grede
Sorry, mate, I'm broke.
- [19:23]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. And I had one fund that I'd invested in that was his first investor, was worth like maybe $5 million. And I kept calling the guy, asking them for the money back. I probably called the guy 50 times to get the money back. He's like, michael, if I give you your money back, I'm going to have to give every investor the money back. And I can't do that or I'll go out of business. And literally, like on the 51st time when I called this guy, I'm like, man, like, I'm going to lose my company. I'm going to go bankrupt. Like, I need this fucking money. He's like, I'll give it to you if you just stop calling me. I know the guy so bad, he gave me my investment back at what it was worth then. And that saved me from being margined out of the company. By the way, 18 months later, eBay bought that company for $2.4 billion. 18 months later, not five years later, not 10 years later, 18 months later. And I'm telling you, you can think I'm like crazy. I enjoyed the experience of thinking that I was going to be pushed out of my company. I was going to be fall apart because it was an adventure to go on. I mean, why do I like roller coasters? I still today at 52 years old, like going on a rollercoaster, you know, with my friends, with my kid. Cause it's the adventure's fun.
- [20:34]
Emma Grede
You just made us something different. But the resiliency to actually call someone 50 odd times is enough for me. I mean, it doesn't bother me. And there's no embarrassment there. There's nothing I hate. You're like zero. I just want to go back because obviously to sell a company for $2.4 billion 18 months after it was essentially worthless. This is GSI, right? GSI Commerce. But you held onto a piece of that company that eventually then becomes fanatics. So did you have, first of all, how did you manage to extract the most, like, I guess the most valuable part of the, you know, company out? Because that feels like unbelievable that you could even do that. And did you have a vision for fanatics at that point or were you just like, I just want to understand how that comes together. Because to have a sale like that, we're going, what, how many years ago?
- [21:22]
Michael Rubin
2011.
- [21:23]
Emma Grede
Yeah, so it's like, it's a long time ago. $2.4 billion is a ton of money. So I just want to understand how do you manage to get away with the bit that ends up being 25 worth $25 billion?
- [21:34]
Michael Rubin
Well, two things later, it would be wrong for me to not say, when I sold the company to eBay for $2.4 billion, I think I had screwed up a lot of pieces of the business and I had actually been a better CEO then I think the company could have been worth a hundred billion. Like we, if you think about, yeah, you think about what we built. We built the, you know, one of the first e commerce technology engines. Think about what Shopify is worth today. We built an incredible email platform. Think about what, you know, exact target that was bought by Salesforce. So if you go through each of the pieces of what I built, you know, I didn't do a great job. So I actually think I failed up by selling it for $2.4 billion. But I think you're actually giving way too much credit to me. In 2011, FedEx was nothing, okay? It was a completely undifferentiated e commerce site of licensed sports merchandise. And ebay didn't want it because they're like, look, we don't want to be in the inventory owned business. It wasn't a good business with nothing business when I bought it. And it's the only thing I focused on that allowed us to think about how to really build a strategy. So the only thing I really thought when I bought the business, I had one giant fear, which is there's this little company in Seattle called Amazon. I don't know if you've heard of them. You've heard of them? Yeah, Amazon. I thought if I didn't completely differentiate ourselves against Amazon, we would be dead. So it was really, when I bought, it was like, how do I differentiate the business? And then the strategy has kind of evolved as we've gone. So. So, yes, I know we had to be highly differentiated or we won't be in business. Because I watched what Amazon did to Toys R Us and Sports Authority, all these other retailers we worked with. So that fear was very helpful. But I think the reality is, no, I didn't know what I was gonna do with the business. I bought it and just like, it was just that natural compass, like, I'll figure it out.
- [23:16]
Emma Grede
But it's so interesting to me that you had this thing and you were gonna figure it out and because to me, I look at fanatics as such a differentiator in the marketplace. Right? You own your space, you own the relationship with sports fans across all of the leagues and their purchases, bar none. It's not like you have, like, so much competition. It's like, fanatics. Fanatics. Fanatics. And indeed, when I, you know, was a partnering with Kristin Juszczyk and we were going to start off season, all roads led back to Fnatics. If you want to be in the, you know, team sports business, if you want to sign with a league, you have to come back to you guys. And so I'm so interested in how you've been able to ring fence this incredible company and you've been able to keep everybody else out when seemingly it doesn't feel like it was this big strategic part of your plan. It was like essentially what you were left with and you had to focus on that.
- [24:09]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. So first, I don't think what you're saying is accurate at all.
- [24:12]
Emma Grede
Oh, good. All right, tell me.
- [24:14]
Michael Rubin
Like, I feel like.
- [24:15]
Emma Grede
Because you feel like you're constantly under.
- [24:17]
Michael Rubin
Attack in our entire business, across the board, collectibles, business, trading cards, sports betting, merchandise. There's tons of competition with our job.
- [24:27]
Emma Grede
But you're number one.
- [24:27]
Michael Rubin
We are number one.
- [24:28]
Emma Grede
You're number one. You're the market leader.
- [24:31]
Michael Rubin
Every day, everyone's coming to kill number one.
- [24:33]
Emma Grede
Well, listen, that's just your mentality. Like, that's unbelievable.
- [24:36]
Michael Rubin
That's not my mentality. That's the truth. Okay? And the second I get confident is when it's over. Like, I really feel like the sec, like the second you come, that's why you. They kill you. And so I feel like I want to run this business like we're a startup. Like, I'm only looking insane. What are all the things we're doing wrong? And I got to Tell you something. In each business, we have things we're great at. We have things we suck at. We have so many things we need to do to be better. We think, you know, our biggest thing we need to do is keep growing the categories that we're in, keep innovating. Let's take the example of the business that you and I are partners in. Okay? Talk about off season. Talk about Kristen. Kristen reached out to our company for years, and she couldn't get anyone to kind of respond to her, give her the love, because we acted like a big company. Okay? Then one day she did something. She put. She. You know, she dressed Taylor Swift. I saw it all over. I started following.
- [25:25]
Emma Grede
Hi.
- [25:25]
Michael Rubin
No, I started following her back. I'm like, wow. Like, I love what she's about. I love this. And then, small world. I find out that she's partnered with you. And by the way, at that point, I had to chase her and chase you to say, let's partner go. That didn't bother me. I didn't. I didn't mind saying, hey, quite the opposite, right?
- [25:40]
Emma Grede
You were like, what can I do for you guys?
- [25:41]
Michael Rubin
How do we partner together? How do we do something great for sports fans? So, like, you know, a lot of people would say, like, is the CEO of a 22,000 person, you know, $11 billion revenue company next year.
- [25:53]
Emma Grede
That is literally what we said.
- [25:55]
Michael Rubin
And, you know, I was like, I loved it because I had so much respect for her vision, so much respect for you. I'm like, these guys are killers. Like, what could the three of us do together? And what could we do for sports fans? So the second you get comfortable and think, like, look at, like, all the changes that are happening in the apparel and footwear business today, and you say, like, nothing's forever. And, you know what? We have to keep figuring out how to do what we do better. And there's so much that we can be better at. And so, you know, one of the mistakes I think I made, you know, in the first decade of the business, we were so worried about competition. We weren't focused enough on how's everything we do gonna make it better for the fan. And now, like, we actually. We. I'll tell you, talk about turning a failure into a success. We had, obviously, it's well known at this point, we had. We had a pretty, you know, tough experience in baseball last year with the jersey. And, you know, as everyone knows, we're partners with. With. With Nike. We're partners with mlb. We make the jerseys together. And, you know, everyone in the desire to innovate, want to kind of change the baseball jersey. And it's not what fans wanted. And during that period of time, and by the way, we got, you know, fanatics took the brunt of most of the. And there was a lot of consumer noise.
- [27:04]
Emma Grede
You know, hey, I remember it.
- [27:06]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, these pants are see through. These jerseys suck this, that. And what do we do? Number one, we listened and we reverted back together with Nike baseball and ourselves, we got to revert back to what fans loved, number one. Number two, how do I use that to make my company better? And literally, we'd been talking about brand purpose for the last year. And I was like, what is this brand purpose bullshit? Like, is this just like, you know, consult noise? And then it hit us. It's like we need to relentlessly enhance the fan experience and everything we do. And if you ask us when you go to do things and we do a lot of things, is this going to relentlessly enhance the fan experience? If the answer is no, don't do it, well, I can look back to a bunch of things we did in the past where it didn't relentlessly enhance the fan experience. And now we're going back and we're saying we're re questioning everything we've ever done to say, how do we be better?
- [27:52]
Emma Grede
So you feel like everything is anchoring back into that brand purpose.
- [27:55]
Michael Rubin
Everything has to go into that brand purpose of relentlessly enhancing the fan experience. So when we started the sports betting business, we said, hey, if we give you back money in every bet that you make that you can use anywhere in our platform, the other thing we do is players get injured in sports all the time. If a player gets injured in the first quarter, quarter of a game, we cancel that bet. We're the only person that does it. So what are people saying? Fanatics is the most rewarding sportsbook. And by the way, they're the fairest sports book. Why we've picked up, as of this month, I just saw this morning, we have about seven, seven and a half percent of the market. We've been live for two years. Wow, okay. And we're the other distant third, but we're the third biggest online sports betting platform. From people telling me two years ago, I had no chance. Now talk about sports betting. We made a gamble. My biggest gamble ever. I had no idea whether it would work or not. Still not a hundred percent sure it's gonna work or not. I said to people, hey, I'm making a billion after $2 billion gamble. I think I'm gonna be right. But I don't know. But you have to have the compass to say, is this a big enough business I wanna go after? And am I comfortable with what happens if it doesn't work? And so I know I'm a little all over the place in this answer. I'm kinda walking you through how my brain thinks.
- [28:57]
Emma Grede
But I think it's so interesting to think how your brain thinks. Cause there'll be so many people listening to this podcast who wanna start a business or have started a business. And your mentality is what makes you so interesting. It's your approach and your, like the idea. Like, it kind of makes me laugh that you, you still feel like you're being constantly chased. And I get it for you, I get. Listen, I believe you. You're being constantly chased. But I think it's really interesting that you, you've orientated all of these businesses around this mission. And when you're starting out, do you think it's really important for young people or for people that are just like getting into something? Is it important to orientate yourself around a mission? Because I feel like we hear so much about purpose, about mission, about purpose driven companies. Like, and, and what does that even, what does that even mean when you're beginning?
- [29:44]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. So I would say if I had the chance to start over again in 2011 with Fanatics, I wish I had that brand purpose then.
- [29:53]
Emma Grede
Right.
- [29:53]
Michael Rubin
Because I think we'd be a better company today. I think in our online sports betting igaming business, we started with that mission. In the collectibles business, we started with that mission. In the fangirl business where we started in 2011, we didn't have that mission. And I think now that we have that mission of everything we do has to relentlessly enhance the fan experience. We keep going back and saying, well, what doesn't? And how do we change it? And so I think that's the fun part of building a business. Like, let me ask you a question, Skims is roughly how big today?
- [30:22]
Emma Grede
It's big.
- [30:23]
Michael Rubin
Okay. It's big. How many people, how many people didn't care about you five years ago and now sudden they want to kill you?
- [30:28]
Emma Grede
Oh, a lot.
- [30:30]
Michael Rubin
Right? Right now when we're doing this, this podcast together, you got people out there looking at, what's Emma doing? What's Jens doing? You know, what's Kim doing? What are you guys doing? How do we kill these guys? You know, because you guys are winning a hundred percent. So that's. You're lucky to Be in that position. But if you don't stay on your A game, you're gonna be dead.
- [30:46]
Emma Grede
And how much do you look at the competition? Cause I am always looking at the competition.
- [30:50]
Michael Rubin
I look at everything. Let me tell you something. When I see something I like, I copy it as well. Okay? I'm, I'm proud of that.
- [30:56]
Emma Grede
I'm so happy that you are honest about that.
- [30:58]
Michael Rubin
When I see a great feature, like.
- [31:00]
Emma Grede
I'm getting a screaming set, do you think everyone should do that? Because I don't think many people are honest about that. Right.
- [31:06]
Michael Rubin
They're dumb.
- [31:06]
Emma Grede
The entire fashion business works on the premise. Everybody cross shops everybody's brand, everybody looks at everything that's happening, and yet we all pretend that we don't. So I'm so interested in you just going, you see a feature on someone's website, you're like, I'm putting that in tomorrow.
- [31:21]
Michael Rubin
I pay attention to everything I look like. I look at social media for one reason. So I see what's going on for my, like, I look at, I follow every one of my competitors. I follow everyone who's interesting. I follow everyone I can learn from. And I'm sending stuff to people. I probably send 20 or 30 posts of different shit to, to, you know, people who I work with.
- [31:41]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [31:41]
Michael Rubin
Every single day. So that, that's how we learn. That's like, if you don't do that, you're dead. Now that doesn't mean, like, if someone's got something really original and apparel in it, like, they're known to own it. I may not want, of course, I may not want to copy that. But let me just take, like we're in the business, like our original business. All the fan gear that we sell, we sell more than 100 million units of fan gear this year. Okay. If we see something great in another business, we're absolutely going to find a way to bring that to our sports fans. Okay? And one of the things that interesting about the fangirl business, what we were really good at was servicing the average sports fan. Why did I call Kristen so many times? Why did I call you so many times? Because you were doing something different. You were saying, how do I cover that fashion forward, higher end sports fan that I knew we weren't doing a good enough job with. Why did we start bringing in Lululemon merchandise in hockey? Because we knew our fans wanted that merchandise. Why are we expanding with Nike and so many products that we didn't carry before that we're not carrying today? You know, we keep figuring out how can we do things better for the sports fans? So I think if you don't pay attention closely to your competition, you're dead. And I think when your competition does something good in a lot of cases, don't be proud. Like I learn from my competition all the time.
- [32:55]
Emma Grede
Just get, get in there and do what they're doing and try and make it better. As a mother of four, I know only too well the importance of nutrition for your little ones. Bobby isn't just another formula. It's a movement. One that started with a mum who wanted something better for her baby and yours. After three years of research, testing and retesting and relentless mum led development, Bobbi launched the world's first USDA organic whole milk infant formula. Manufactured right here in the U.S. bobbi is launching the first of its kind recipe. It's Bobbi's closest recipe to breast milk yet it's packaged with ingredients that support brain development plus more naturally occurring full fat cream and fusion. Fewer added oils deliver smoother poops. Bobbi supports every feeding journey with simple, organic, high quality formulas that bring their best for your best. Their ingredients meet the strictest organic standards in the world. Because USDA organic isn't something you buy, it's something you earn. Bonus it tastes good. Don't take our word for it. Your baby's bottle will tell you. Bobbi is available online and at a retailer near you exclusively for our Aspire listeners. Bobbi is offering an additional 10% off your purchase with the code ASPIRE. Visit www.hibbi.com for more details. That's H I B O-B-B-I E.com want.
- [34:21]
C
More control over how and when you pay? Klarna helps you spend smarter no matter what's on your list, Klarna is your everyday Smarter spending partner. Klarna's Pay in 4 features lets you split purchases into four interest free payments. No stress, no surprises. For smaller buys, you can still pay in full. The point is, you're in control because smarter spending starts with more flexible options. Look for Klarna at checkout or learn more@klarna.com CA resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Financing law license NMLS number 1353190.
- [34:57]
Emma Grede
What else is it about you that makes you successful?
- [35:01]
Michael Rubin
Look different. People can be successful. Like I like I know so many. Like I'm always studying people. You'd see somebody who's like wicked smart but they don't have great people skills. I'm the opposite, right? I'm honestly not that smart. I mean, people think again. Oh, he's being self deprecating. I got a 780 combined on my SATs.
- [35:18]
Emma Grede
I think that's really bad. I mean, I'm English, so let me.
- [35:22]
Michael Rubin
Tell you, it's really bad.
- [35:24]
Emma Grede
It's not the skull from the movies.
- [35:26]
Michael Rubin
Most people who are listening to this, I bet you 80, 90% of people got better than a 780 on their combined SATs. Okay? And you know what? I embraced it. So what do I do? I'm going to outwork my competition all the time. I'm going to use common sense, I'm going to use relationship skills, and I'm going to have a will to win that nobody else can stop. And you know what? I know that will gets things done where everybody else will give up. I'm never fucking giving up.
- [35:49]
Emma Grede
Let's talk about the work ethic. Because one thing that I know about you is when I text you, wherever I am in the world, you usually text back, if not in the same minute that the text is gone, but within an hour. Right. Like you're very much like it's. There's a lot of immediacy around the way that you communicate. You know, I feel like you've got this sort of band of people around you. You have a very specific way of working. But when I think Michael Rubin, I think the work, I think the person picking up the phone, sending the email, making the communication, making the connection. You do that feverishly, furiously all the time. And I just wonder if you feel like the amount of work that you put in has a direct correlation to how successful you've been. Or you could have, you know, could you have done this like working three days a week, for example?
- [36:38]
Michael Rubin
Zero chance. What I'm trying to figure out is how I can get an eighth day in the week that only I get. Okay, how can get a 25th hour in the day only I get.
- [36:46]
Emma Grede
Let me know when you figure it out, will ya?
- [36:48]
Michael Rubin
So look, I've had a couple changes in my life. Interesting. I realized that I can't be glued to my phone the way I have been. Cause it's actually screwing my brain up.
- [36:58]
Emma Grede
Yeah.
- [36:59]
Michael Rubin
So now what I'm learning to do is I put my phone down for an hour here, an hour there. My oldest daughter's 19. She does. It's not like where, you know, she called me, she'd need me right away. So I'm actually learning to put my phone down, you know, for periods of time. You know, generally like an Hour at a time, right? Because I don't want. I don't want my concentration to be broken. I think I can have a much better discussion with you. I'm 100% focused on you and not having my phone with me. So that's a change. That's a new thing for me in my life.
- [37:25]
Emma Grede
And how often are you doing that? Are you doing that every day?
- [37:27]
Michael Rubin
I'd say each day I'm probably putting my phone down probably 20 to 30 minutes during dinner when I'm with my kids, I try to do it because I just think I shouldn't be like, that's the 20. We're fast eaters. I grew up like a Labrador retriever. Just, I eat quick. But in that 20 minute dinner, you know, 30 minute dinner, I want to focus on, you know, my family, I don't want to focus on.
- [37:49]
Emma Grede
And the other six, 16 to 18 hours you're working.
- [37:51]
Michael Rubin
And then I'd say maybe a meeting or two a day, I'll just leave my phone on my desk. Now, I also have a crazy OCD habit about myself. I cannot go to bed without responding to everybody in my phone and deleting every message I've dealt with. So my phone, okay, I do that.
- [38:07]
Emma Grede
I don't delete the messages, but I have to deal with everything that's in the.
- [38:10]
Michael Rubin
Ever since I've been a kid, I like, if you looked at my phone right now, I wouldn't have more than 20 or 30 total messages, none unread. Okay? Because that's how I keep myself in order. So before I go to bed, I can't fall asleep. No matter how fucking tired I am, I can't fall asleep if I don't just respond to everybody. So I'm.
- [38:28]
Emma Grede
That's a nightmare.
- [38:30]
Michael Rubin
I don't always respond during the day, but I'll always respond before I go to bed. Because if not, it actually tortures my brain. I need my phone to be completely organized, so then I know the next morning what are the things I have to do that are in my phone from the day before. So that's like some crazy OCD thing about my. My brain. You also, if you walk into any of my offices, there's no paper. They're perfectly organized. Like, I just. Like, I'm very OCD like that. I've always been that way. But I do think, you know, you gotta figure out, like, what works for you. This works for me. Okay? And I do, like, I like to be in touch with the people that are around me. I like, even like, there's probably, like, there's this guy in Philly who used to be like a complete detractor fanatics. He would tell us all the shit we were fucking up and doing wrong. And then, like, our company was too dumb before. We didn't bring detractors. And now anyone who doesn't like us, bring them in. We want to bring them in.
- [39:18]
Emma Grede
Yeah.
- [39:18]
Michael Rubin
Okay. So this guy now texts me all the time, but I pick up good things. I'm always like, it's just customer I just built this relationship with. And I'm like, always this, this. I love the guy, by the way. It's like, like I'm learning from the guy. He's like, he's, he's showing. But sometimes there's things, the news he sends me before, so it's like, like I, like I'm glued to information like that. And I think it makes me better.
- [39:36]
Emma Grede
No, and I think it probably does make you better. But going back to the work, is your expectation that everybody else is going to work like that around you? Because it can't be 22,000 little Michael Rubins running around 18 hour days.
- [39:46]
Michael Rubin
I don't think that's realistic. I don't think that's realistic for the 22,000 people that I work with. I think that would be illogical, not real. Like living in a fairy tale. What I would say to you is, if you want to be fanatics, you have to have a will to win. Okay? And if you just like, if you just want to come in, you know, hit the clock, be nine to five, this ain't for you. Okay? That said, people have lives, people have families. Like, you know, I'm not a big work balance, life person. That's not who I am. You and I have talked about that before. I'm like, people are like, how's your work life balance? Like, I don't have any. Okay.
- [40:17]
Emma Grede
Because it's all work.
- [40:18]
Michael Rubin
Because I love it.
- [40:19]
Emma Grede
And not everybody could live up to the expectations of being like that quick all the time. Look, I would say it's too much.
- [40:25]
Michael Rubin
I would tell you. If you look at my direct team, the people I work with day in and day out, the six or seven people that kind of run the business with me, they have that intensity.
- [40:36]
Emma Grede
And that's your expectation that on that level, the most senior leaders in the company have to be like, they've got.
- [40:41]
Michael Rubin
To be glued in like I am. Have that intensity. Love it. Be here for the action. No one that I'm with is in it for the money. Like they all want to see the report cards. They want to see they're doing well, but they're in it to win in a big way and to make it better for the fan. And so we're so obsessed with like if you just saw the emails every day, it's everything that we could do better at. It's everything we could build to be better. It's like we're always just trying to do better. And so that takes a relentless, you know, kind of focus. If I didn't have it for my key, you know, team, then how would that go down the organization now you don't have to. The person that works, you know, in a warehouse or, you know, you know, a lid store is going to have the same intensity of a top executive at the company. No, but by the way, some of our next leaders work in the warehouse. Some of the, you know, maybe the future CEO fanatics, when I'm dead one day is in a lid store. Today they're in a warehouse. You know, Roger Goodell started in the mailroom. He's been the commissioner of the NFL for whatever since you know, the last this 15, 20 years. So like to me, like, I love that story of like you can will anything to happen. But I'm realistic as well.
- [41:40]
Emma Grede
No, I feel like it's.
- [41:41]
Michael Rubin
Let me take it back. I'm somewhat real.
- [41:43]
Emma Grede
I was going to say you're somewhat realistic, but the point is that you're work ethic is completely unrelenting like that. That is what has got you to where you are now, 100%.
- [41:53]
Michael Rubin
And if I didn't, we'd be killed because there's so many. We were in three different businesses with lots of competitors all figuring out how they can beat us. And so we have to be better.
- [42:03]
Emma Grede
No, and I understand and keep doing.
- [42:05]
Michael Rubin
Things for the fan that are better. And if we're not unrelenting about that, we're done.
- [42:08]
Emma Grede
Yeah, and someone else will be. I want to talk about the money because you just mentioned money, that no one in your executive leadership team is in it for the money. Were you ever in it for the money? Because I think about so many people that, you know, they're in jobs, they're thinking about starting a business and they're like, I just want to make more money. I want things to be better for me. Is that a good reason to want to become an entrepreneur or to start your own business?
- [42:33]
Michael Rubin
No, that's very simple answer. I mean, like, like, look, it's easy. And so before anyone's going to Shit all over my answer. Let me just preempt it, okay? Obviously, I've had more than enough financial success where I'm never thinking about money. Okay?
- [42:49]
Emma Grede
That said, does that make you happy, by the way? Is that. Is that to you some sort of like, is there a sigh of relief when you say that, or is it just so normal now?
- [42:56]
Michael Rubin
I just don't.
- [42:56]
Emma Grede
You've been rich for too long. I don't feel. You don't care.
- [42:58]
Michael Rubin
I don't act any different today than I did in 2009 when I didn't have enough money to pay.
- [43:04]
Emma Grede
I know that that's a mortgage on my house. I know that that's the truth.
- [43:07]
Michael Rubin
I am the same exact person person. And that's what makes me me. And so I think if you look at. At the people that are the most important people in our company, they're driven by the mission, they're driven by making it better for the fan, they're driven by trying to do the unthinkable. They're driven by, like, just winning at the highest level. And then generally the report card is. Money does follow, but that's not what they're driven by. For me, I don't care about it at all. Now, again, I know people can say, well, it's. Cause you've been so financially successful. So do I think as an entrepreneur, you should be in it for the money? No, I think you should be in it to build, to. To disrupt something, to build something great, to do something awesome. And by the way, to have so much fun. Do you really, like. Let me ask you a question. How much fun do you have doing what you do?
- [43:50]
Emma Grede
Oh, you have. No. First of all, I think that I am the luckiest girl in the world. I feel so happy that my job is to come to work every day and I get to work with like, jeans and undies, and I work with the. To me, I work with the big best people in the world. I absolutely love it. Having said that, I am someone who. If I wouldn't. I mean, I wouldn't come here if I wasn't making any money. Like, that has been an important part of what has driven me. I've never gone after something purely for the money, but it's like, I'm happy that I've made some at this point, and I did. I definitely feel like there was a time in my life where I was like, okay, I have this job and I'm not making enough money. If I get another job, I. I'm not going to get paid that much more money. So taking that, taking it into my own hands and going, do you know what? I'm going to try something for myself was why I became an entrepreneur. I was like, I reckon I can do better and pay myself more than where I'm getting paid. That was the primary reason for me going, I got to get out of a place where I'm being paid 30 grand a year.
- [44:50]
Michael Rubin
For me, I was born an entrepreneur. I came out of the womb with those, those instincts. And by the way, it's kind of weird because, like, my family, there's no signs of business anywhere else in my family, so.
- [45:03]
Emma Grede
Interesting, isn't it?
- [45:04]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. Gotta do a DNA check, I think, or something. But, you know, like, I like, I like, even as a kid, you know, what I always loved was to be able to play the sport of business. That's what I've always loved. And today, what drives me more than anything is trying to do things better than we do it today or better than our competition and to try to keep, you know, just like, I want to build the most important brand in sports. Yeah, I want to build one of the most important consumer companies in the world. We're not remotely there today. Like, I was just telling some of this story. I think I was telling your husband this. Like, I watched the Nike movie, I think it was called Air.
- [45:43]
Emma Grede
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [45:45]
Michael Rubin
And I watched it, like, when it first came out two years ago. And I remember going to Google. Phil Knight, how old was. He was 85. I'm like, I was 50 at the time. I googled him two years ago. And I thought to myself, wow, I have 35 more years to do kind of what he's done. Like, what can I do over the next 35 years? So I really do think of ourselves in the startup phase today. I think we have so much opportunity to, you know, build each of the three businesses we're in, to make them so great for consumers and to build something global that every sports fan needs. And then, by the way, we'll think about what other businesses do we want to be in over time. Not today, but over time, once we get better at all the things we're doing. So to me, that learning is so fun. So when I think about, you know, kind of what's in it from kind of, you know, a job or a career perspective, I think the learning is what turns me on.
- [46:34]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [46:35]
Michael Rubin
That is the thing that gets me most exciting. I think if you as an entrepreneur go to build a business, if you just go to build something Great, great shit follows. And by the way, sometimes it won't work, sometimes you're going to fail and then you learn from that. Like I could go back and chart some of my biggest failures and say man, I learned so much from that and that helped me for my next success. And so like each of my big failures, like, I don't know, they could have been disastrous but they, they, they leaned into something next I did. That was great.
- [47:02]
Emma Grede
No, and I mean it's so clear to me. It's interesting that you say you were born to be an entrepreneur and it's so, it's so interesting because I feel like I don't even think I knew what an entrepreneur was. I had no ambition to ever start my own business. And it's. Do you, I just wonder if you think that can be people become entrepreneurs. I feel like, you know, it's like I worked a corporate job until I was 24, 25 and if you are one of those people that's thinking like I just need to do something different, what does it mean? What is it gonna take? Like what do you need? Like what are those key things when you. And this is not necessarily just about you, but what are you looking for?
- [47:45]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, so first I think it was in you. It just never came out before. I only wish I met you when you were 24, 25. I would have had you on the fanatics team and we'd be that much better now. I had to partner with you to build off season to be on season.
- [48:00]
Emma Grede
We got there eventually. We got there, took a look, it.
- [48:02]
Michael Rubin
Took you till you're 26 or 27.
- [48:04]
Emma Grede
Thank you very much.
- [48:06]
Michael Rubin
Look, I have seen lots of people, they were in different jobs, find that entrepreneurialism within themselves and then go out and do absolutely amazing things. I've seen lots of people go out and fail miserably and then do amazing things afterward. So to me I think it's about having the self confidence to not be scared to fail. It's about having the ability to come up with the right idea and test idea, make sure it's big enough to go out and put your energy into it. And it's about doing things you love too. You have to love this. If you don't love it, like why do it?
- [48:39]
Emma Grede
But do you ever deal with like pain? Like do you, do you have that in your business? Are there times when you're really taken aback by something that it actually, it hurts?
- [48:51]
Michael Rubin
No, never. I'm going to tell you why. Because I'm immune and numb to it like, I've had so many every. I could go through, like every week of this year. And there's always disasters. There's always.
- [49:01]
Emma Grede
You're like, this year for sure.
- [49:04]
Michael Rubin
I'll give you an example. Someone walks in and say, hey, this tariff thing came is going to cost $100 million. I'm like, what are we doing about it? How do we turn this into an opportunity? Like, you can use these things, but.
- [49:14]
Emma Grede
You wouldn't as someone who's so ambitious. Right. If you're going to take $100 million of revenue out of the company this year, that means profits. Profits.
- [49:21]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, profits.
- [49:22]
Emma Grede
Oh, my. All right. I mean, first of all, even. Even worse. Right? But then that means that you then can't do something else or something else has to slow down. That doesn't pain you. Being as ambitious as you are, sometimes.
- [49:32]
Michael Rubin
Those can be really good things. Cause you build up. Like right now, here's the way.
- [49:35]
Emma Grede
So you go straight to like the.
- [49:37]
Michael Rubin
Existing crisis we're in right now, the tariff crisis. Okay. I got together with my team, that business, $7 billion business. We have 8,000 employees in that team. Actually more than that in that team. And I said, guys, this is a great opportunity. Like, we have to reinvent our supply chain. We have to be fast. Like. And by the way, the CEO of that business is amazing.
- [49:55]
Emma Grede
This guy, amazing. He's so good.
- [49:56]
Michael Rubin
He's been. He's been talking about, like, these things, and I'm like, well, now we have to do these things faster. Like, we need to own less inventory. We need to turn faster. We need to change how we actually make goods. Like, I'm almost excited by. I will tell you, I had not one negative feeling to someone saying, we're going to lose $100 million in profits, not revenue, this year. Great. How do we help that to be better in the future? I could give you 10 examples right now of different things like that. I mean, you know, probably the only thing where I feel pain, probably, I. I came up with one thing where I felt.
- [50:25]
Emma Grede
I'm so glad you got there. Cause I was going to try and do this one. Yeah.
- [50:28]
Michael Rubin
A site outage. That is one thing that's very pro for you.
- [50:33]
Emma Grede
The customers can't get in the shop now.
- [50:35]
Michael Rubin
No, I'm being serious. Like, I remember Superball, like five or six years ago. There was so much traffic, the site went down. I feel like someone stabbing me. And then. And I'm calling and like, you know, if you keep calling the guy who runs technology, he's not actually no, he's.
- [50:46]
Emma Grede
Not actually fixing the problem, trying to.
- [50:48]
Michael Rubin
Fix the problem with his team. If the sports book is down, like something like that, that actually, that kills my inner soul, okay? Because I just want to fix it. I think I feel pain. Maybe something goes wrong for my kids.
- [51:00]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [51:01]
Michael Rubin
You know, but in business, no, because, like, I think one of the things of good leaders, someone who can deal with whatever comes at them in a calm and thoughtful way, I calm down during the most difficult period. So when, like, shit's going crazy, that's when I think we have to be calmest, most focused, like, game on.
- [51:20]
Emma Grede
No. It's such a brilliant piece of entrepreneurial advice, actually. And I heard Tom Brady once say that when everything's going crazy, you gotta slow down the play. You just gotta, like, slow it down. And I think that it's really interesting because you can be in these moments of overwhelm where everything goes on top and you just have to make everybody feel calm. And as a leader, that is such an important component of what we do. Because I will tell you that this week in our companies, it is sheer panic. These tariffs have completely upended everything that we do and it changes the entire face of the company. And if we were to all just descend into panic, I mean, people wouldn't know, they'd start leaving.
- [52:01]
Michael Rubin
Right.
- [52:01]
Emma Grede
Your best people will be like, oh my goodness, like she's panicking. What's happening? So you really have an opportunity to show what type of leader you are.
- [52:07]
Michael Rubin
You can't panic because the reality is every consumer company that makes merchandise, everyone's going through with this issue. And by the way, you're going to be able to reinvent your supply chain. Like, look, China is probably not going to be a place where a lot of American companies make merchandise because of the, you know, relationships. I think so right now. And so, you know, and by the way, China's, you know, they're a really good, you know, partner in making merchandise. But you'll figure out, how do I shift that? How do I make my company better? Like, I know in 2026, SKIMS will be a better company from what you went through in 2020.
- [52:37]
Emma Grede
Absolutely no doubt.
- [52:37]
Michael Rubin
I'm sure that.
- [52:38]
Emma Grede
Absolutely no doubt.
- [52:39]
Michael Rubin
And even though many companies are taking a drop in value to the good ones will be more valuable next year because they figured out how to take advantage of this opportunity.
- [52:45]
Emma Grede
You naturally have a very long term view if you're, when you're building something, you're thinking about these new divisions. Are you thinking in 5 year increments 10 year increments. What does that look like these days?
- [52:55]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, I say I generally try to think about what things look like in the period of five to 10 years. Like I don't think about what's it going to mean over the next year or two years because I think that's too near term focus. I think it's what, what can you do over five, ten years? After that I'm like, okay, I hope I'm here. So, you know, like, I think five to 10 years is kind of the periods of time that I think about. I think you can do a lot in five to 10 years. You can build something that's, that's really, you know, a leader. You can do something that's just so good for the fan if you take that kind of long term mentality.
- [53:24]
D
Each spring, 23 Pulitzer Prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music.
- [53:31]
Emma Grede
There was disbelief and pride and life changing.
- [53:36]
D
My name is Nicole Carroll and I'm a member of the Pulitzer board and host of Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes. In each episode, winners reveal how much labor and risk, heart and imagination go into creating their prize winning work. We'll talk with novelists and reporters.
- [53:53]
Emma Grede
We found stuff that no one had heard before or found out it was.
- [53:56]
D
Exciting critics and playwrights.
- [53:58]
Emma Grede
I do not want to live in a world where we don't go on.
- [54:01]
D
A stage and tell the truth about who we are. And columnists who've risked their lives to speak truth to power.
- [54:07]
Michael Rubin
What moral right would I have to call on my fellow Russian citizens to stand up to the Putin dictatorship if I didn't do it myself?
- [54:15]
D
The second season of Pulitzer on the Road premiered March 10. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.
- [54:25]
C
Whether you're jetting off to a new destination, leveling up at work, or simply feeding your curiosity, spending Speaking a new language can change your life. And now Rosetta Stone makes it easier and more immersive than ever. With 30 years of expertise in 25 languages, from French and German to Japanese and Vietnamese, Rosetta Stone's Truaxent speech engine gives instant feedback on your pronunciation so you sound natural every time. And because there's no English translation, you start thinking in your new language right away. Rosetta Stone has lessons that fit your lifestyle on desktop or mobile. And today you can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for for unlimited access to all 25 languages at 50% off. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now Listeners of this podcast can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com RS10 to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com rsten and start learning today.
- [55:25]
D
If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling, Drop it. And 50% groaning at the bill from every pet visit. Which is why Lemonade pet insurance is tailor made for your pet and can save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account get nervous. Claims are filed super easily through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled, drop it.
- [56:04]
Emma Grede
You talk about pattern recognition all the time. Can you explain that to me a little bit?
- [56:09]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. I think history is a great prediction of the future. So. You know, one example that I've used is I interview more people in a given year than anybody at my level. And the reason is I realize how important people are to our company. That is the most important asset.
- [56:27]
Emma Grede
How much of your time are you spending interviewing people?
- [56:30]
Michael Rubin
You know, I bet you in a given year, and I work, you know, probably 80 hours a week on average, 78 hours a week, every week, probably 80 hours a week. I'd say 10 to 20% of my time. Okay. And during that period of time, I've never asked somebody for a reference in my life. Why? Because anyone I meet, I'm gonna figure out who I know that knows them. I'm gonna do backdoor check. I'm never. If you asked me for a reference, I recall the people that I gave you and say, hey, make sure you tell Emma this about me.
- [57:02]
Emma Grede
Definitely.
- [57:03]
Michael Rubin
And by the way, anyone who's listening to this, when someone asks you for a reference, if you.
- [57:06]
Emma Grede
I'll be like, he's amazing.
- [57:07]
Michael Rubin
Anyone who? Anyone. When someone asks you for your references, if you don't give them the three or five references, then call each reference and tell them what you want them to say. You're not thinking very clearly. Okay, so for me, what are you doing instead?
- [57:21]
Emma Grede
Because I know you're calling around.
- [57:22]
Michael Rubin
I'm calling around and I'm checking on, how have they been? What's their history? Sometimes I'll meet someone like, this person's fucking incredible. I found the person.
- [57:30]
Emma Grede
What questions are you asking when you reference someone? What are you asking?
- [57:33]
Michael Rubin
How well do you know this person? Are they killer? Not a killer. How smart are they? How do they work with other people? And I gotta tell you something, of people that I interview that I love, two thirds of the people I hear bad about, okay. And I'm here at stuff, they don't work well with others. Okay. Someone can be so smart, but they're going to be disruptive. That doesn't work. Okay. Another thing that I would hear is they're kind of like the political, the big company. I don't want politics. I want, I want, you know, entrepreneurs. Yeah.
- [58:03]
Emma Grede
So I was a non negotiable for you. When you, when somebody is interviewing with you or you're going through that like referencing period, what is an absolute no go?
- [58:12]
Michael Rubin
Someone has to have a track record in the past of being a winner. Okay. Track record is the best prediction of the future. So what are the pattern recognitions you want to see? How has the person done? Are they a winner? Okay. Are they, do they find out how to win? So you're going to always find that by talking to people that they worked with in the past. And, and I think the second thing is how do they work with others? Because when you interview somebody you can't see how they work with others and you really can't see like take anything great. How many, what's the best products? Kims make best products?
- [58:43]
Emma Grede
The number one product, I mean there's just so many. But what's your number one? Ultimate bra.
- [58:47]
Michael Rubin
Okay, that ultimate bra. How many people do you think in the world say they invented that ultimate bra?
- [58:51]
Emma Grede
I think there's quite a 50 people maybe.
- [58:55]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, they're all going to run around. Yeah. I promise you. There are dozens of people saying I invented the ultimate bra. Yes. Okay, so if I interview the person who says I invented the ultimate bra, I'm going to Emma or Jens and, or Kim and saying who invented this?
- [59:09]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [59:10]
Michael Rubin
Okay. Factor that to figure out, are they full of shit? Are they real? Okay. So one, I want to figure out, you know, are they a real winner? And two, I want to understand their track record and then how do they work with others?
- [59:20]
Emma Grede
It's pretty damn good. I like that. One of the things like you are so you like in every single room. I was very, very fortunate to be. No, no, I mean you really are. You don't change for anyone. And I find that such an appealing like it's just, it's a very attractive quality in someone that you just, like, remain the same. And I came to your super bowl party, right? And it was like the who's who of everyone. Everyone that was important in sport, plus me. And so that means you're important in sport as well. Apparently, I'm about to be important in sport.
- [59:54]
Michael Rubin
You are important in sport.
- [59:55]
Emma Grede
But, you know, the thing that was interesting to me is that you are just being you. You're the commissioner of the NFL. You around all the players, the celebrities, the talent, the media moguls. Like, the whole thing. Like, I feel like there's such a. People feel like they need to be a chameleon. They feel like as they climb the ranks, whether it's corporate or they start something, that they have to, like, change themselves. You have clearly not done that at all. Was that purposeful? Like, I'm trying to understand, like, where that level of authenticity and you being able to always be you, like, where it comes from and why it just feels like such a big part of your brand.
- [60:33]
Michael Rubin
I love putting great rooms together, because what happens when we put great rooms together? Great things happen. I remember seeing some of the people you went up to talk to.
- [60:40]
Emma Grede
Oh, yeah, me. I was like, yeah, correct.
- [60:42]
Michael Rubin
And by the way, I said, I.
- [60:44]
Emma Grede
Came with a face sheet, right?
- [60:45]
Michael Rubin
And I said, who do you want to meet? Let's go see one by one. And to me, when you put great people together, great things happen. But for me, if I'm not just me, then I think people think, like, he's full of shit. He wants something from me. They see through it. They know you're not authentic. So, like, I can't even. Like, I don't ever. Like, I dress like this every day. I don't ever. Like, I think I wear a suit, like, you know, once a year. For me.
- [61:07]
Emma Grede
Yeah, you didn't have a suit on then.
- [61:08]
Michael Rubin
A wedding, a, you know, a funeral or something. Like, you have to wear a suit. Like, you know, I'm a casual guy. Like, I don't try to speak more properly because it's not me. I curse because I want people to know. Like, you're not cursing here, but I am because that's who I am. So I think, like, owning who you are, something that's really important. And by the way, like, I just try to be my, like, my best self all the time. And I think. I think it does work for me. And I think people know, like, that they can trust that. And. And I'm also like, you see, in those rooms, I'm still picking things up from People like, no, you're. And.
- [61:41]
Emma Grede
But you're. You know, you're picking things out, but you're also putting people together, which I love consistently, but you do it without. And here's the thing. People love a favor for a favor. You don't ever ask for anything back. And I find that so interesting. Like, I feel like you've hooked me up with so many people at this point, and I'm waiting for the phone to ring and you to be like, hey, girl, like, I need this thing. But that doesn't seem to be your style at all. Whoever I speak to.
- [62:05]
Michael Rubin
Well, first off, I would call you for anything I need and know you would do it for me.
- [62:09]
Emma Grede
That's true. Well, I would now. That's true.
- [62:11]
Michael Rubin
But, like, look, I think when you try to be calculated about, if I do this for that person, this is what they'll do for me. I think you're dead before you start. Like, I always think if you just do great things, it comes back. And so I think I've been fortunate that I, like, look, I have guys like Robert Kraft. He's one of the. You know, he's one of the most important owners in sports. You know, he and his son, Jonathan Kraft, they took me, like, they kind of took me in, like, 2008, 2009, and they helped me so much in business, both with advice, in relationships. They never wanted a thing from me. And by the way, they would kill for me, and I would kill for them. And, like, I wouldn't be here today. This. I'm very sick without the two of them, Really. I wouldn't be here. I would not be here today. Okay. There were a number of people like that. But I want to do that for everybody that I can. And I don't ever want anything. But I also know, like, people always, like, friends, work for each other behind the scenes.
- [63:03]
Emma Grede
Yes, they do.
- [63:04]
Michael Rubin
And so, like, you know, to me, I remember saying to you when you were in the corner, you know, who do you want to meet? And, you know, I remember taking you to a couple of different great people. And, like, I was honored to do that. Never thought about it again until right now. And what's.
- [63:15]
Emma Grede
Oh, I thought about it, but what.
- [63:16]
Michael Rubin
Will make me happy is to see you do something great with, you know, one of those businesses. And, you know, whether it's Nike or Target or whoever it is, it's, like, great things to come. And that makes me, like, so proud and happy that I could create a room and an environment where people could come together and look I love bringing great people of all different backgrounds together and watching great things happen. Okay. And that is something that I'm actually pretty good at because I have such a diverse group of friends and people trust me and then they come in here and I think they're open minded. No, you knew everyone in that room. Tell me someone you want to spend. So whoever came up to you, you're.
- [63:47]
Emma Grede
Like, hey, you know, it's like, it's worth your time. It's a great, it's going to be a great contact. So I can, I can completely see that you authentically do that. And it's become a great part of your business, of your brand. And it, and it completely works because.
- [63:59]
Michael Rubin
You just play back in karma, by the way, for sure.
- [64:01]
Emma Grede
If you never work, of course.
- [64:04]
Michael Rubin
Right.
- [64:04]
Emma Grede
Because I feel a warm feeling to you because of the way that you've behaved. And again, when, when we did our deal, and I will say this because I think it's such an incredible trait, took us six months to get through the legal. But what you told me in the first meeting, what we would do, how we would do it, the deal that you were prepared to make is exactly what we did. And I think when you can take someone on their word like that, that says everything you need to know about that person. And so if you did call me for something, I'd be like, yeah, Michael Rubin, he's the real deal. Like, he's a great guy. And that, that is like so seldomly the truth. Like me moving from England to la, like, I have not seen that very much.
- [64:42]
Michael Rubin
Well, first of all, thank you.
- [64:43]
Emma Grede
It's the truth.
- [64:44]
Michael Rubin
Number two, I will eventually call you for something and I know you'll help me. And I don't know what it will be, but, like, that's, that's just what family.
- [64:50]
Emma Grede
I'll be waiting for, Nicole.
- [64:51]
Michael Rubin
That's what family does for each other. I'll tell you. It's funny, when we were talking about off season yesterday and your husband and I were talking about this, he's like, yeah, you know. You know, a lot of, a lot of this is sourced in China. You know, China's completely. I said, whatever it is, we'll figure it out. Like, it's all good.
- [65:05]
Emma Grede
Totally.
- [65:06]
Michael Rubin
And by the way, we're partners. If we need to lose money, you know, on the next launch or the next two launches, who cares? Like, we're a big believer. And your wife, we're a big believer. And Kristen, we're big believers. Like, it's, it's just like we'll figure it out. Like, you always think long term in these things.
- [65:18]
Emma Grede
I think it's so interesting just going back to off season and thinking about like, what's happening in like really specifically around women's sports at the moment. And you know, our business is about all sport, but I feel like there's like a time and a moment where things happen in culture and it collides and it makes the right environment for you to do business. You've been around for a long time. Are you as excited by women's sports and the business opportunities that sit adjacent to that as everyone else? Or like, are you less excited? Like, I really want to understand because you, you have the customers, you see what's happening, you have the sales figures. Like, what's the. What's actually happening.
- [65:53]
Michael Rubin
Yeah, I'm the most excited I've ever been. And the reason is for, since 2011, I always been saying, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, but it wasn't really here. Now we have two major. Well, we have a couple major opportunities. The one is women's sports in general has so much interest from the whole world and so it's become a real business. Like, if I think about the WNBA's business five years ago versus today, I mean, what an incredible league it's become. I look at what's happening in each of the women's sports, I think there's never been more excitement separately. Like, think about the woman's category of merchandise. We have sucked in that category. There's been so much.
- [66:32]
Emma Grede
I'm glad, you know.
- [66:33]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. You know, as they used to call Trinket and Pinkett. Okay. And so when I.
- [66:37]
Emma Grede
We know the people that did that.
- [66:39]
Michael Rubin
Right. So when I look at, you know, what you and Kristen are doing, when I look at, you know, the Lululemon product that we're now carrying, when I look at, you know, the work we're doing with other people, it's because there's such a big untapped opportunity.
- [66:52]
Emma Grede
Totally.
- [66:52]
Michael Rubin
Again, what I think Fanatics was best at originally was taking care of the average sports fan, of which there's billions of. But the problem is when you have billions of people that are sports fans, there's so many niches. And what we didn't do, as good as job is in the niches now we're so focused on thinking about each customer segment separately.
- [67:10]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [67:10]
Michael Rubin
And that's a big opportunity itself. That's a big growth opportunity for us. Yeah.
- [67:13]
Emma Grede
It feels like it's going to be a Massive unlock. When you can get women's sports a power. Right. And I really believe that off season has a huge part to play here. I mean, women love buying clothes. They love buying clothes with a frequency that is very different from how men buy them. So I'm just very excited by the space and the opportunity. But how do you think women. Because of course, look, sports is still at the kind of epicenter and where the decisions are made and more importantly to me, where the money's made, it's still super male dominated. How do you reckon that, like, women can actually get involved in what's about to become, like a really important business, Like a really big money generating business?
- [67:51]
Michael Rubin
First of all, in our biggest business, the fangirl business, our business is only about 15% women's and about 12% kids. It's 50% bought by women.
- [68:02]
Emma Grede
Yes.
- [68:03]
Michael Rubin
Okay. So they're controlling the money. They have all the purchase power. So let's not forget they are, I'd say, the most important person, you know, in the household. Thank you. Okay.
- [68:12]
Emma Grede
I'm interested actually having worked with you a little bit now and some of the people in your company, but more importantly that the women in your company, you've really got a lot of very incredible senior women that work around you as well. Like, has that been purposeful for you to cultivate that? Do you think about, I've got this many male leaders, maybe I need to balance it with women. Like, I just wonder because there is such an intrinsically different way that women operate to men. And I just want to understand your opinion about that and how you see it in terms of leadership and then more thoughtfully, like as it extends to women and women's sports.
- [68:45]
Michael Rubin
So the way I think about it is the population represents our fan base. Right. Because we have 115 million customers. And so we have every type of customer, you know, buys, bets, collects with fanatics. So we need to have a workforce that represents our fan base. Okay.
- [69:04]
Emma Grede
Yes, you do.
- [69:05]
Michael Rubin
And by the way, if you think you're gonna get there without working at it, nfw, like, it takes real work and we're not near good enough at it. Like, we have the workforce that most represents our fan base today than we ever have. We're not near enough good at it. Like, we gotta keep getting better at it. We gotta keep developing people. So, yes, we work very hard at it. Cause I think it's in our best interest of how we build a better company. It will be more successful if our workforce resembles our fan base.
- [69:32]
Emma Grede
Yeah, that makes a Lot of sense when you. I'm so interested. Cause I do see your daughter around you so much and I wonder what you hope that she'll learn from you by being around you so much.
- [69:44]
Michael Rubin
So I want them to learn work ethic from me. I want them to see how fun what I do is. What my daughter said to me, and it was actually one of the proudest moments I've had with her. She said, last year at the end of the summer, we went and grabbed dinner one night. She's like, di, I just want you to know, like, we have so many friends that are like influencer. She goes, I want to build. She actually, she's dying to do what you do. She wants to build a fashion brand. She wants to be the entrepreneur that builds it. And she wants to be well known for building a great business. And for me, what I want her to do is just live out her dreams.
- [70:12]
Emma Grede
Okay, of course you do. That's all, that's all any father wants.
- [70:15]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. By the way, she just hit me on the way in two collabs we have to do. She's always telling me about collabs that we should do together. And by the way, she'll tell me, like, this person's hot. You got to check this person out. You should do stuff with them. So yeah, like, I'm learning from all the time and I love those conversations.
- [70:29]
Emma Grede
I do want to ask you a question before we get to like a final, final questions. Just give me an idea of the things that you think about from a habit point of view that have become non negotiable and just the things that like, form the most important parts of your life. And really, I really want to understand them as they, as they link to you being successful. Like, what are those things that you just have to do?
- [70:54]
Michael Rubin
Yeah. So I think the first thing that links to my life is owning who I am. Like, I'm not trying to, you know, be a fake person. Hey, like, you know, you know, I put my kids to bed every night. Or like, you know, I'm like, by the way, with Kylie, when she was younger, I was in a situation where I did put it about a lot of things. But like, Camille's the most incredible mom. And you know, Camille's like, hey, I got the kids. You go do your thing. You know, we find the windows. But like, like, I love working. I'm like owning how much I love to work and it's what I do and not trying to like apologize for it. Apologize. That's number one. I see that number two, you know, non negotiable. You got to work with great people. And like, I will not negotiate on that. And when someone, when I think someone's a liability, see it. And by the way, you certain people can help you get to one place that can't get you to the next level. You gotta know how to just like, I love you.
- [71:45]
Emma Grede
Move on.
- [71:45]
Michael Rubin
Move on. One of the biggest pet peeves I have is like, someone who tries to bullshit me in any way, shape or form. And I'm. One of my biggest strengths is I have great bullshit detection strength. So, like, if you're trying to bullshit me, I will pick it up. I hear so, like, I hear everything. I pay attention to everything. So I will very much the second. I don't trust somebody gone.
- [72:09]
Emma Grede
Yeah, you're just decisive af.
- [72:12]
Michael Rubin
I'm very decisive.
- [72:13]
Emma Grede
Yeah, you are right.
- [72:14]
Michael Rubin
I'm cursed, by the way. It's okay.
- [72:15]
Emma Grede
I know. I keep feeling like I'm on the telly. Yeah, you are decisive as fuck.
- [72:20]
Michael Rubin
I am.
- [72:20]
Emma Grede
There you go. Thank you for enabling that. That was great.
- [72:23]
Michael Rubin
I'm here for you.
- [72:23]
Emma Grede
We're going straight to the rapid fire questions. Michael Rubin, you ready?
- [72:26]
Michael Rubin
Here we go, rapid fire.
- [72:29]
Emma Grede
All right, first of all, what's the first thing you do when you wake up?
- [72:32]
Michael Rubin
That's the most obvious answer in the world.
- [72:34]
Emma Grede
No, come on, what do you do? You pick up your phone for the.
- [72:36]
Michael Rubin
Fourth time since I've been asleep.
- [72:37]
Emma Grede
I'm not supposed to. No, no. You don't get to sit, look at it in the middle of the night.
- [72:40]
Michael Rubin
Of course I do. Who doesn't?
- [72:43]
Emma Grede
Oh, my goodness, I'm exhausted. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed? It's check your phone, obviously. I mean, this was the easiest.
- [72:50]
Michael Rubin
What kind of dumb question was that for you?
- [72:54]
Emma Grede
It was a really dumb question. I'm doing medicine. Okay. Michael Rubin. Doing a little humming. I mean, try. Have you tried it?
- [73:03]
Michael Rubin
I tried once.
- [73:03]
Emma Grede
It lasted 20, 20 seconds. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life?
- [73:09]
Michael Rubin
It's a great question. I'm inspiring. I want to build the greatest brand in sport that every sports fan in the world. Like, I love this company and we are so far from that. We have so much to do. But that's what. That's. That's my dream, right? How do I build something? Everyone's not like, not they, you know, it's just where you go to buy something or it's where you go to bed. It's like, we just make it so much better for the Sports fan. Like, that is, like so exciting to do. And so that is the thing I'm obsessed with is like, how do I build something that's like, just sports fans, billions of sports fans love this.
- [73:41]
Emma Grede
It's a great answer. What about in your personal life? What are you aspiring for there?
- [73:45]
Michael Rubin
You know, it's harder as you get. So I'm 52, and even though I act like a kid and look like a kid, you know, I think at my age, health, like, yeah, it's, you know, I travel with a trainer. I. Right now I'm having, like, my neck is always. I have a PT person that's working on my neck every day because my neck is just pretty cranky. So I think it's, it's, it's, it's health. Like, if you can feel good. I think it's like I've had the last couple months just like some, you know, like, just, you know, fighting. Just like, you get older, you got to work at that harder.
- [74:14]
Emma Grede
It's the most important thing. What is a piece of advice that you've been given that changed your life?
- [74:20]
Michael Rubin
I remember being on a walk with Robert Kraft in 2011 and 2012. I was on the phone with a commissioner very unhappy about something they had done. And I was like, all I want to do is win that battle. And when I got off the phone, Robert said to me, michael, give it to him. Because this is all about the long term partnership. And, you know, you're too focused on the individual win. Even though I was right, you're too focused on the individual win and not focused on just having that right long term partnership. And that was a good moment because I chilled out, I took a deep breath. Even though I didn't agree with what they were saying, I did it the way they wanted and it paid dividends.
- [75:08]
Emma Grede
Yeah, I bet it did. What's something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't anymore?
- [75:15]
Michael Rubin
I think when I was starting, Maybe even till 10 years ago, I was a work hard, play hard person. I really don't. Like, people see my life. They see like the five fun things I do a year, and they think I'm super fun. Like, I don't value, like, I just value building my company. It sounds, like, obsessive, and people are like, he's a fucking weirdo. Like, all he cares about, you know, is he's putting his company. But, like, you know, I'm less concerned. Like the time I used to have to go out and, you know, like, I think building a great company is fun. Yes. So, so I don't. I think the things that people would say are fun, you know, maybe I care less about now.
- [75:45]
Emma Grede
That's really the answer to my next question. Is something that you value now that you didn't then, what do you value now most of all?
- [75:52]
Michael Rubin
Well, for sure, it's got to go back to health. Like, like I, like I want to. I want to do this another 50 years. I want to do it in a healthy way. 50 years. So I think I really have a huge respect for health. Like, I'm, I'm spending time on that. I'm focusing on that. I value relationships. Like, I really care about my relationships. I think they're really important to me. I think, you know, I wouldn't be who I am without this relationship. So I think I feel fortunate to have so many incredible relationships. So I want to respect them, give to those relationships. Those are probably two things I think about.
- [76:21]
Emma Grede
They're great things. Great things to spend your time thinking about. Thank you so much for coming on the Aspire podcast. Michael Rubin, it's been a pleasure.
- [76:28]
Michael Rubin
Honored to be with you.
- [76:29]
Emma Grede
Thank you, darling. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Keyser, Leah Rees Dennis and Jenna Bice Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox and Kurt Courtney. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at jonesworks and wne. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meikol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me @aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelled G R E D E. That's Aspire A S P I R E with me, Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed. Me.