← Aspire with Emma Grede
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- [00:11]
A
We always see the success, but rarely we see what happens when things don't work out. Jara Jai was on a high with her beauty brand ami Cole, a first time founder with over 80 industry awards, a spot on Oprah's favorite things list, and famous fans like Hailey Bieber and Martha Stewart. Then after launching in 500 Sephora doors, she announced that Ami Kole would close for good. It takes an exceptional founder to say I was wrong today. Jara goes there so you won't repeat her mistakes. What does it mean when you finally know why things went awry but it's too late? It's a conversation you won't want to miss. Introducing the new Eggo protein waffles. The same great Eggo taste people know and love. Now with 20% of your daily protein in every serving. Protein never tasted this good. These waffles deliver an excellent source of complete protein with 10 grams per serving and are made with wholesome ingredients fresh from the griddle. Perfect as part of a complete breakfast. Eggo Protein waffles pair easily with fresh fruit, almond butter or whatever is already in the kitchen. They offer a delicious way to start the day with irresistible taste families are looking for. When something tastes this good and delivers this much protein, no one can say no. Head to your local grocery store to fuel your morning with Eggo protein waffles and pancakes available at retailers nationwide. Introducing the new Eggo protein waffles. The same great Eggo taste people know and love now with 20% of your daily protein in every serving. Protein never tasted this good. These waffles deliver an excellent source of complete protein with 10 grams per serving and are made with wholesome ingredients fresh from the griddle. Perfect as part of a complete breakfast. Eggo protein Waffles pair easily with fresh fruit, almond butter or whatever is already in the kitchen. They offer a delicious way to start the day with irresistible taste families are looking for. When something tastes this good and delivers this much protein, no one can say no. Head to your local grocery store to fuel your morning with Eggo protein waffles and pancakes available at retailers nationwide. Jara, I'm so excited to have you here today.
- [02:31]
B
I am beyond thrilled.
- [02:34]
A
Well, that's a good, that's a good place to start because we are going to dig into it, darling. We're going to talk about, I guess the less beautiful side of the beauty business. Right? I love that. Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot over, you know, the weekend and you know, you and I have been spending speaking a little bit since you made the decision to actually close your brand, Ami Cole, and this month, September, you're gonna shut the doors to the business that you've spent the last few years building.
- [03:01]
B
Yeah.
- [03:01]
A
And I guess that that is really, really something that has taken an emotional toll on you.
- [03:09]
B
Absolutely. There's so many layers to it. And I know we're gonna get into all the layers.
- [03:13]
A
We're gonna get into all the layers, all the tea. I mean, listen, you and I have been speaking because when you decided that you actually were. I think you called me, you reached out, and you were like, I did. I asked questions. Listen. And I always want to help and.
- [03:27]
B
Thank you for that, for opening your door. Like Emma, you are about it. You know, you stand by your word. You take mentorship very, very personal. And I think you understand on this side how important it is. So I really do appreciate you answering the call.
- [03:42]
A
You know, it's interesting because I think most people think about mentorship when everything's going right. And it's really important to think about getting in touch with people and connecting when things are going wrong, because you need to be able to unentangle yourself in a way that is going to leave you with not just, you know, a sense of what you've built and the importance of all of that, but there's some complicated stuff when you decide to exit a business. And so you and I spoke about all the good, all the juicy stuff, the ip, the ownership, what happens down the line. We were like, get into that part of it. But I do really want to make sure we touch on the lessons. But before we get into that, when you think about what you've been doing and what you built with Ami Cole over the last few years, I want to understand what you would like to leave people with. What is the overriding feeling coming out of that brand that you would like people to know about?
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, I just got a wave over me. I'm like, oh. You know, I think especially having worked in the industry for so long and having such passion for it, you know, just the sheer beauty and just, like, joy of it, I think, showing that it's possible. It's possible to be thoughtful in design. It's possible to be intention with your product offering and also to push the limits, new channels, for instance, and things like that. So I had been in rooms before. We were like, nope, we're only doing 12 shades. That's it. And my job was to market the 12 shades, don't get me wrong. So I did my job, but I'm like, you know, what happens in a world when all of these things come together, the branding, the name, the experience, the product offering, the unboxing, everything comes together. And I do think I would say that Amikole was really aiming for that, to be able to offer a top shelf quality, like, timeless approach to beauty that I, for a very long time kept hearing that it was not possible.
- [05:35]
A
Yeah. And I think that you did that because, for me, I think you redefined what inclusive beauty looked like and you did it in such a beautiful and such an elegant way. But for. For everybody that's watching, what do you want them to take away from your story in terms of ambition, resilience, self worth? Like, talk to me about that part of it.
- [05:55]
B
Absolutely. You have to try. I think the hardest thing, I had this idea in 2014. I didn't launch until 2021, so imagine all those times you're like stopping and going and stopping and going.
- [06:07]
A
Well, let's stop for a second there. 2014, 2001. That's really, really important. That's a lot of years. That's seven years. And I think so many people don' what it takes, right? From you having an idea to actually getting something out in the world. What were you doing in that seven years?
- [06:24]
B
Hustling. Yeah, from Harlem, honey. But I worked at Tempt2, where it was a hu. And this is important, though, because at Temptu, I was with the pro makeup artistries, you know, Sam Fine, Nikki Posley, understanding color theory, you know, how to use literally on set makeup and pro makeup artistry to get the right undertones, shape tones, you name it. So I do think that going to IMATs, you know, walking the floor, seeing Pat McGrath and just like, drooling and embarrassing myself, and then coming out of that and segueing into l', Oreal, where it was all about that P and L, all about market share and really thinking, like, big box, big frame, and then going to glossier. Right. You know, being in the belly of the beast when they had just raised $82 million and everything was rosy, you know, fresh flowers and burning candles, you name it. But also being in a high, high, high speed train, understanding the tenacity it took, the grit that it took. And yes, I had the idea in 2014, but I was ready by 2019. I understood because I took the stairs, you know, and I really understood, like, what worked in house, what didn't work. What happens when you go from pro makeup artistry into Sephora onto qvc? How do you work with the founder how do you work with the cfo? How do you work with the art director?
- [07:39]
A
You were essentially in a seven year apprenticeship in the beauty business.
- [07:43]
B
Absolutely right.
- [07:44]
A
You were learning everything. You were absorb. And you did it at different places in different levels, really laying the foundation for you to be able to start this brand. Perfect. You know, it was so crazy because it struck me so much about, like, the closing of Ami Cole. It was the outpouring of love and, you know, just sheer admiration for what you'd built from your community. And that was such. And we're going to talk a bit about this later, but it was such a huge part of the success of your brand. While it was successful, this community that you've built, what did it feel like to witness that type of response?
- [08:17]
B
Hmm. To be very transparent. I was in a dark space, right. You know, I had been fighting myself, my team, even, you know, some investors, like, are we. Is this happening? You know, so since November, I had been calling the likes of you and just trying to figure out, like, is this it? You know, so I think personally, I had been grieving on my own and having to have those tough conversations and show up for the team, show up for my kids, you know, and put the laptop down and really, like, this is scary. This is scary. So for seven months, I had been living this by myself. I have no co founder. I just hired a team in November and I was giving them all the hopes of this is gonna be a big year for us. And I had to, like, let them down.
- [09:04]
A
Well, did you know in the back of your head that things were crumbling beneath the surface? Yes. Yeah.
- [09:11]
B
And I also was optimistic that something was gonna pull through. You know, someone was gonna come and buy and we would just, you know, no one would even have to know about this chapter.
- [09:20]
A
You were waiting for the white night.
- [09:21]
B
I was waiting for the white night. You know, and then I had to be like, okay, we started this on Instagram. We turned that camera on. We were very transparent. What packaging do you want, what naming, what color scheme? If we're gonna do this, we're gonna have to do this out loud.
- [09:38]
A
Yeah.
- [09:38]
B
So I went back to what I know, and that was my community. And honestly, I was scared that 8am, when that, when that article cut, I was like, lindsay, can we just. One more, one more, one more week, please? She's like, no, this is going live. When it happened, I felt free.
- [09:53]
A
Wow, that's so interesting. All right, listen, before we get into the downfall of the brand, I want to contextualize a little Bit about you, the brand, how it started. So let's go back and then we're going to dive into the good, bad and the ugly, as you say. So you named Ami Kole after your mum, right?
- [10:10]
B
Yes.
- [10:11]
A
And I just, I mean, it's so lovely. And there's also your daughter's namesake. So I just want to understand because it's so personal to you, the decision to close the brand that carried so much family legacy, like, it was a big decision for you. So just talk to me about that part.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah. My mom came to New York City, Harlem, 1989, bright eyed, doughy and just, you know, naive. Meeting my. My dad here, her husband, and starting from scratch, you know, left her mom, left my older sister back home. Like, the true immigrant story. Coming here and trying to figure out winter, like, all of it, right? So my entire life was in the hair salon. I was literally strapped. My mom, my sister renovated the hair salon maybe three years ago and literally pulled out my bassinet.
- [11:00]
A
No.
- [11:02]
B
I'm like, first of all, why is that in there?
- [11:03]
A
The true family business.
- [11:04]
B
Second of all, like, wow, you know, I'm seeing pictures of me, yay high with a comb. I'm seeing people that were my teachers and that just saw me grow up in that hair salon. So that was community before it was a buzzword, like, that was our livelihood.
- [11:18]
A
Yeah.
- [11:19]
B
We only had that.
- [11:20]
A
What did that environment teach you about womanhood, about beauty, about entrepreneurship that you carried into Ami Kole?
- [11:27]
B
There's so many things that you cannot measure, even our relationship, Right? Like, in what form do you go and say, emma saved me in this moment? Right. My mom was that. She was the type that after hours, as tired as she was, she would lock that door and she would sit down and she would hear you pour out your heart. She would, you know, she, you know, even people that. I wouldn't recommend this now, but people that could not braid, she's like, come here, I'll teach you how to braid so you can have, you know, livelihood or start a. Like, start your business or whatever. And she would be that mentor, that kind of silent, you know, support that she. For so many women, both Senegalese women coming straight from Senegal and starting fresh, but also, you know, teachers, editor in chief of Ebony, like, you name it, she was that woman. And so selfless. And I think I understood very early how important it was to have community and to really see you and hear you and provide that safe space that sometimes feels intangible. I always thought of Amikole as the shop, a Hair salon. You know, how can we provide that space where once you open that package, you're like, oh, she gets it. She knows me. She sees me. And that's.
- [12:35]
A
You did that in so many ways. Right. That philosophy. I read somewhere that your mom would always ask customers, do you like? And she wasn't satisfied until they did. But. But that. That idea of, like, satisfying a customer, that at the end of the day, what you are there to do is make somebody feel really good about themselves. And I feel like that philosophy was intertwined in the brand, through this community, that you were doing something to meet a need, to serve a purpose and to make people that weren't feeling seen feel truly seen and heard and represented and make them feel beautiful, like somebody had understood their needs.
- [13:08]
B
Yeah.
- [13:08]
A
And to let them feel included.
- [13:10]
B
That's right. And when you walked out that salon, you were in your bag. Okay? You're walking outside, your hair is freshly done. You've got your Moesha braids or your eliminate inspired braids, and you're walking out, and you could visibly. Even as a young person, you could visibly see someone like, oh, wait a minute now. I'm feeling. Feeling myself. I'm feeling myself, you know, and that's such a powerful thing to have black women feel themselves hugely, hugely powerful.
- [13:35]
A
So from growing up in the salon to then finding yourself in this pretty incredible career in beauty, because you really run the gamut, as we've heard you then start the brand. And I want to understand, like, how you started, because I read this beautiful story of you once being in an airport, realizing there's a girl that's like, you know, her lip oil is, like, down to the dregs. And, like, you're. You know, you're dying. And I know that feeling. Seeing someone in your product, it's like this moment of, I made it like, I'm here. People understand what I'm trying to do. But give me that starting story of how it goes from you dreaming about having a brand to actually having product, doing it right.
- [14:13]
B
You know, so I'm a student. I am always a student. I'm always learning. I remember, especially at Glossier, you know, going to these trade shows and, like, looking around, I'm like, how does this work? So how do you get an appointment and how do you do these things? Right.
- [14:28]
A
What was your position at Glossier?
- [14:29]
B
Product development. So I was right there talking and creating briefs, and my job at Glossier was, like, to sift the Internet to figure out what is the next product for us to launch.
- [14:39]
A
Oh, genius.
- [14:40]
B
I mean, I was on Reddit. I was in everybody's comment section. I'm like, oh, the next thing is this plus this equals this. Make it glossier products like Future Dew, like, how do we get glossier skin in a bottle on one step? You know, how do you get that dewy look to last? How would it look on Instagram? You know, how would the packaging look on Instagram? So that was my job, essentially, and trying to convince everyone in the, you know, I had to pitch, you know, pitch Emily Weiss, like, we need a face away. She's like, why? I'm like, well, this and this and that. I'm like, okay, done. So that was my job. But then again, in terms of schooling, right? I would ask chemists, I would like, what about this formula makes it the formula? You know, I love this old school product, but it didn't work for me because of this. What in that formula made it that? And I would ask all these questions. So by the time I left that space, I had a, like, arsenal of ideas and things that old school products that I love, that I wanted to make even better. And then I, with a credit card, you know, booked that ticket to Las Vegas in 102 degree heat. I was not aware, okay, with my pink suit and wig. I was about to take that wig off, honey. So hot. Knocking on every single door, like, hey, I think I have an idea. I had a pitch together. I had the aesthetic together, I had my product offering together. But also listening. I had interviewed so many women and I knew exactly what was missing in their makeup bag. I knew what shades they were using. Mac, NW45, NC60. I knew every Nars, Macau. I knew every shade of everyone, every influencer. And then I'm like, okay, this is it. My sister, funny enough, data scientist, complete opposite from me. She's into data planning, all of that. I just gave her all the data and she literally heat mapped all of the shades that I would need to launch with. So we knew these are the shades that are missing on the market. These are the undertones. Let's get this thing going. So for a year, I was dragging these CMS along. CMS means contract manufacturers. I didn't know where the money was coming from. I was like, this is happening. Oh, we've got plenty of cash. This is happening. So I use an entire. We'll get there. So an entire year.
- [16:48]
A
You're so manifesting. I say winging. I'm just like, I like it either way. You know, an entrepreneur is gonna need to do both.
- [16:56]
B
So for that entire year, I was finessing those formulas and also talking to my audience, bringing them along. And then 2020 happened and then we finally got a phone call like, you know what? I hear you're working on something. Tell me more. And then finally, is that a phone.
- [17:12]
A
Call from an investor or just, okay.
- [17:14]
B
An investor, venture capitalist. And they asked me what was I working on. You know, point of differentiations, totally, all the things. And I gave that. But we also have to remember 2020 pandemic. George Floyd. A lot was happening, A lot of people were paying attention and wanting to understand, like, what side of history do you sit on and what are you going to do about it? So I got a lot of phone calls and then I went from 150 no's to suddenly like, here's a million dollars, take it right now or you're gonna lose it and you gotta stay ready, okay? And I was ready. So I took that cash and let.
- [17:52]
A
Me pause you for one second there because I think this is important to contextualize for the audience. We're talking about a moment in time where corporate America sat up and said, if I don't have any black owned businesses on my cap table, if I'm a venture capitalist, if I'm in private equity, it was suddenly a problem, whereas it hadn't been before. Right? Everyone was going on their merry way, investing in what they know, what they see, who they know. And suddenly there was this, oh, it's problematic if you don't have this. So you collided with a moment in time where these investors suddenly had a newfound interest in black owned brands because they had to. Now the question is here, who exploits who? Right? Because I look at that and I go, wait a minute, had I been you, by the way, I would have done exactly the same. But the reason I stopped you at were you ready? Because I think, you know, luck is where opportunity meets preparation.
- [18:48]
B
That's right.
- [18:49]
A
And I feel like you get super prepared and that piece of luck comes and off you go, you're off to the races. But my question to you is, were you ready? Were you ready to take the money or did you actually look at that and say, this is a moment in time, it's an opportunity and I'm gonna take it while the moment is there.
- [19:04]
B
What a great question. I felt as ready as I could possibly be.
- [19:09]
A
Fair. There's no judgment here. No, no, I would have done the same.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [19:15]
A
I just feel like there were a lot of well intentioned investors that gave money because they know they needed to and not necessarily because they had respect and understanding for what they were investing in.
- [19:27]
B
Love that point as well. And they're not exclusive. And I think at the time the formulas were ready, the business was prepared and the only thing I needed, literally at that time was capital. Only thing the POs were ready to be placed. The contract manufacturers were growing impatient. My audience was all, girl, how many times you gonna talk about this? Is it coming or not?
- [19:48]
A
Yeah.
- [19:49]
B
And then I also, along the way, I bought people that I work with, people that I work with at Glossier to be my head of operations. People that I knew in the office, kind of whispering together, like, if we ever start, would you join me? And they did. So I think at that moment I was ready. But I still think there was opportunity for mentorship, for guardrails and guidance. And I would argue honestly that that's not the model of vc. Honestly, it's not technically their job facts. And that's okay too. But that's why we're here, right? So I would not call it unprepared. But I also knew that there needed to be a lot more infrastructure ready because we have to look at the context, right? You'd never been in this room before. The industry wasn't even technically having products or brands like that outside of, you know, an LVMH backed brand like Rihanna and Fenty. You know, there's a lot of catching up to do and there was a lot of, there's a big head start. So who was going to fill the gap of that head start to make sure it was actually equitable, not just diverse?
- [20:47]
A
Damn right. And that should be you, right? It's like at the end of it, you were like, you looked at yourself and you're like, why not me? Is a better answer to you. Like, why not me? I'm ready. I've been in preparation. I feel like I know this audience. I'm going to go for it. All right, so talk to me about that start. So you get the money, you get a million dollar check.
- [21:04]
B
Yes.
- [21:05]
A
Then what?
- [21:05]
B
From one major investor. And then it was, listen, launch was insane. We were ready. You know, it was wildly successful, honestly. So much so that the venture capitalists came back and said, hey, let's pour more money into this right now. I'm like, no, no, no, let's slow down. I don't want to do the rocket ship. I know what that looks like. I actually wanna do a little bit slower. Right. Which again, I would argue is not the VC model. You know, so we had a Very small.
- [21:31]
A
It is on the vc, but absolutely fair. Also, I think you were coming out of glossier, which was raised to the heels run to the profitability.
- [21:39]
B
What's that? What's profitability?
- [21:40]
A
Who cares? And I think it was a different time. And I often talk about this because it's important for our audience to understand that for a very long time, and arguably for the last 10 to 15 years, where direct to consumer businesses have ruled what we have as consumers, you know, seen come up, and then inevitably come down. Yeah, the idea was not about profit. It was about chasing growth, chasing customers, and doing it at any cost imaginable. And we've had this huge switch that post Covid. Everybody sat there and was like, well, is your business profitable or is it not? Because if it's not, then there is no longevity there. And I think for so many founders, they were like, but whoa. That wasn't what I was optimizing. For me, my investors, my board, my management team, we've just been chasing growth. And I think it's a really important distinction to make because those days are over. Gone, gone, gone, gone.
- [22:31]
B
And we were a little bit more on the conservative side, not burning cash or taking in too much cash too early. But then again, like, you know, launch we had. We blew through our entire month's forecast in a day. A day. So you were on the ship. So by the time we were on a rocket ship, right, and everyone started knocking every retailer possible, and we still were like, no, no, no, we'll start. We'll do our violet gray, our goop. Let's really position ourselves. Let's really be careful and diligent about what clean beauty actually means and take our time. Even with that, you know, within, like, 16 months, we were signing a contract with Sephora, and, I mean, and everything was happening.
- [23:07]
A
You had 80 beauty awards. You were on Oprah's favorite things list. You had Oprah the Allure. I mean, Oprah, you had the. I mean, it really was the gold standard of what was supposed to happen when you launch a product line that people truly care about, right? So in terms of signaling, like, what is going right, you have love from customers. You have explosive sales that are beating all your forecasts. You're getting the industry playback, saying, you're doing something right. So all the signals coming at you are like, you're on it.
- [23:39]
B
You're doing it.
- [23:41]
A
I'd be walking around like, you're like, okay, I'm feeling myself, like, I get it. But I think it's important, again, contextualize like this wasn't you sitting around going, let's hope something great happens. It was happening to you.
- [23:54]
B
It was happening. And again, this is still on the heels of COVID So it was interesting. All the operational snares that were happening, we were pushing through that and we answered a lot of hard questions. I do think though, in hindsight, team is important. My day one team, my day zero team, that was in my Brooklyn apartment brainstorming with me and just as passionate. They're not, they're not gonna take you from 0 to 10 million. They're not going to help you navigate your margins for Sephora. They're not going to timeline and frame and work backwards towards like, okay, what is the end goal here and how do we work backwards? How do we raise accordingly? How do we meet those metrics of profitability? Ebitda, Whatever you need to do to make sure that you have the right revenue to team ratio.
- [24:47]
A
Yeah. You know who was advising you once you made the raise? Right. So let's. Again, you raised a million and then you raised again.
- [24:55]
B
We raised right before we launched in Sephora.
- [24:58]
A
Right.
- [24:58]
B
So it was in that November year going into Sephora, that January, two years after launch. Two years after launch.
- [25:05]
A
Two years after Launch. And what did you raise the second time around?
- [25:07]
B
Second time we raised 1.2. No, sorry, 1.7.
- [25:10]
A
1.7. So you're 2.7 million in raise. And who is, who's your people? Who's your board? Who are you speaking to?
- [25:18]
B
No board.
- [25:18]
A
No one. Okay.
- [25:20]
B
And in hindsight again, that's where you don't know what you don't know.
- [25:24]
A
You don't.
- [25:26]
B
Girl, I'm from Harlem, okay? And even the friends and family rounds, I had to chuckle at all those things because I'm serious, my friends and family, you know, my dad's friends were decent, hard working cab drivers. The best thing that you could get is get the New York City medallion. And you thought you were like ballin the hood 100%.
- [25:44]
A
They could drop you somewhere, but they ain't got no money for a friends and family.
- [25:47]
B
There's no friends and family.
- [25:48]
A
They take you to the person that might give you something, but that's not coming from your community.
- [25:52]
B
My uncles were still charging me, so that's another conversation. But listen, you know, it was a hustle, you know, I was just learning. I was literally watching YouTube and asking the questions, but there was no babes. This is how you structure this and that. And that's a difficult place to be because I took a lot of advice from investors. And I think the advice from investors was, you gotta grow. And in order for us to unlock the next tranche of cash, we need to see full chain, we need to see this, we need to see an executive hire. And I just kept chasing those things to get to the next level. But I think like the strategy to actually sit down and work backwards and have that intention could be really difficult when you have opposing investors with opposing ideas and not a single board, you know, working towards one thing. So it was difficult. I don't think there was like a hardcore mentor pulling me through saying, hey, we've seen this done here, this is what you do. I think everyone was just bringing the best that they could. And honestly we were solving tough questions. Multicultural brand that was serving no makeup makeup. We were not giving you Instagram TikTok wild worthy makeup that would stop you in your tracks. This was serving skin emotion. It's like finding the perfect pair of jeans. It takes a little emotion education to it. Right, so it was a little bit of slower burn. And then we're bringing that to Sephora. Is she shopping at Sephora? Wasn't she at the beauty supply? What's happening between the beauty supply store and Sephora and how are you getting her there? And a lot of that was on me to figure out how to get her there. And Sephora would support you. But like the Sephora machine is like, we are gonna meet you on the second floor. How you get to the second floor is on you, babes. So once the machine is running and the engine is running, that's when we turn you on. Gone are the days where Sephora's coming in the 90s and you're like fresh beauty or you're one of 10 or you're a drunk elephant and they need you as much as you need them. There are 150 brands. So being a black owned or whatever, those optics were not enough to get that audience into Sephora to know about you, et cetera.
- [28:00]
A
So and this for me actually is a, it's a very, very important distinction to make because if you believe that distribution will solve the problems to your business, you're in trouble. Right. And I can take this back just thinking about my own experience. When we started Good American, we launched with Nordstrom. And that for me was such an important part of the brand success. Because from day one I was getting a set of data back from my own direct to consumer customer on the website. And then I was getting this sort of more legacy customer from Nordstrom that you Know, went in for a pair of frame jeans or for a pair of Paige and walked out with a pair of good American. They weren't looking for my brand. They were happening upon our brand. But right from the outset, you know, Nordstrom has been 168 doors in this country. We're like, we want you in 50 doors. And I said, I can't go into 50 doors.
- [28:50]
B
Good for you.
- [28:51]
A
I can't.
- [28:51]
B
How'd you know that?
- [28:53]
A
Well, and that's the thing I knew because let's be honest, I never run an apparel company before.50 sounded like too much. And so I asked you the question because you went, you launched in 200, 250 doors. I mean, Char, like, what? Why didn't you say no? Like, I want to understand that.
- [29:11]
B
That's a great question.
- [29:12]
A
Because there's a little part of this that goes, is there an ego thing here? Cause you're like, it sounds. I'm like, I'm in $200.
- [29:18]
B
No, that's a great question.
- [29:20]
A
Was there nothing in you that went, you know what? I can't go from where I am today to 200 doors? And were there no one around you that said, listen, girl, you might need to walk before you can run here?
- [29:30]
B
Oh, I love that question. And one thing I will say, every founder is gonna say this, but I don't think ego is at play. I just needed to know what to do to get to the next step. Tell me what to do. And the conversation is, you need to get into full doors. Because Sephora came to me. I will give Sephora their credit. Let's start on dot com. I went to the investors, they said, let's start on dot com. They're like, no doors. Okay, go back to Sephora, any doors. And they're like, I literally had three way calls with Sephora investors and myself. Investors are like, give her more doors. Sephora's like, slow down. I'm like, what do I do?
- [30:13]
A
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- [32:47]
B
That's right.
- [32:47]
A
You know, because not all doors are created equal. Right. Usually a retailer will have an A tier door, a B tier and a C tier, meaning they will have a store that makes, you know, $20 million on a Saturday and they'll have one that does two, and you need to test your brand in each of them. So when you're looking at the fleet, you're not actually saying, I want to go into all adors, you're saying, I want a Smattering of what you have to offer. I need three A's, three B's, three C's.
- [33:16]
B
Oh my God.
- [33:16]
A
And I want to test and learn my way into it. I want to be on the dot com, so I can understand that. But it's a lot to chew off. 250 doors out the gate because how do you finance that?
- [33:28]
B
Uh huh. And I guess with $1.7 million.
- [33:31]
A
So how did you do the math and say I got 250 doors I need to go into?
- [33:36]
B
I've only raised 2.7 million and in hindsight, I would have loved to do that. In hindsight. Can I tell you what I love to do?
- [33:44]
A
Please.
- [33:45]
B
I would have done 20 doors. I would have had a full brand.
- [33:49]
A
Expression in 20 doors.
- [33:51]
B
In 20 doors.
- [33:52]
A
Not a half cost. In $250.
- [33:54]
B
No. Hello.
- [33:55]
A
Hello.
- [33:55]
B
We were on Next Big Thing and I do think that the investors thought you don't pay for that shelf on Next Big Thing. So I will caveat that. So when you technically look at the overhead, it doesn't look as expensive as an inventory play, but at that time in inventory, it just looks like an investment. You're not calculating velocity and you're not calculating what skew will proliferate. For instance.
- [34:17]
A
May I just stop you there? Because again, for the audience, really important thing to remember. So just explain velocity so people understand what we're trying to get to in beauty sense.
- [34:25]
B
Absolutely. So I'll take it even step further back. The Next big thing is that gondola or bay shelf that you walk down the aisle and you see like Danessa, all the new brands that are kind of emerging through social. Essentially I was there. You don't pay for that because that's a Sephora initiative where they want you to discover.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah.
- [34:47]
B
Where China.
- [34:48]
A
Your test that's trying to highlight new brands. And it's a testing space for new brands to say, how do you resonate with customers? If people gravitating towards you before you get shelf space, before we give you this prized piece of space in our store, let's see how you go with it.
- [35:01]
B
Exactly, exactly. So that is your test and learn for you and for Sephora. And then you graduate, you graduate to another one and the fixture is like, you know, even more beautiful. It's a big moment. So again, in my world, I would have had 20 doors. I know my markets because we had DTC for a year. Atlanta, New York, Louisiana.
- [35:22]
A
I know your markets and I don't even know your business period.
- [35:25]
B
Right. So I would have done that. And then I would have actually showed you who Amikole is. It's very hard to get that experience when you're walking to those shelves. Let's be realistic. It gets kind of sloppy sometimes. If you know about it already going into the store, possibly two things can happen. You go with your checklist, your Sephora checklist from TikTok or someone on the. On the floor convinces you to try this company and the brand. If you don't have the capital to invest in a field team, and I would argue, honestly, if you're on the next big thing, I wouldn't invest in a field team. It's too early.
- [35:59]
A
Too early.
- [36:00]
B
Yeah. So, long story short, yes, that was a very expensive bet to make. That was at the time, what I was told to do, pushed to do. I could say without the right mentorship, to be like babes, you need to slow down. I don't think anyone around me was saying 250 is too much. In hindsight, that's what I want to do right now.
- [36:19]
A
Shaking the table, I feel like.
- [36:21]
B
I know.
- [36:22]
A
Let me ask you this question. Do you think Sephora, or any major retailer for that matter, is, you know, like a game changer for a brand or just a mirage? Emma, now, in this day and age, questions. Because it's not just about Sephora.
- [36:38]
B
It's about Sephora.
- [36:39]
A
It's about Ulta cvs, it's about Nords, it's about Target, it's about Target, it's about all of it.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah. Oof.
- [36:45]
A
What's your viewpoint?
- [36:48]
B
My view is that you need to be a brand before you go into those stores. You need to know how. It's like a kid. I have a baby. Right. You need to know how to walk, talk, say, hey, it's time for the potty, and then take that energy and DNA into the brand for people to meet you there. I don't think Sephora is gonna make you. I think Sephora is gonna propel you. So I do think that before you get into that door, your business needs to be grid tight. Your margins need to be prepared to take that distribution hit. You know, you're having healthy 85, 90% margins on D2C's amazing.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah.
- [37:24]
B
And then, boom, you get into that and you think that you're compl or your foundation's actually going to do more velocity for you. Again, velocity means how much you're selling by door, by sku, by day, by week. How much are you moving that matters exactly.
- [37:40]
A
The sell through the velocity. That is the Metric by which the retail partner is looking at your brand.
- [37:46]
B
That's right.
- [37:47]
A
Do they remain in or are they out on the next floor set? And I think, listen to contextualize because I work a bit with Sephora and I understand that, you know, a lot of these businesses had incredibly good intentions and it has to be said that many, many brands have, you know, done incredible business with Sephora. Many black owned brands. You look at Danessa for example, and I'm like, Danessa's killing. But I do think again, for the purpose of this conversation, readiness ahead of you going into retail are the things that you need to be able to absolutely drill down on because it will trip you up. And it might not trip you up in the first season or the first few months, but it will come back to get you. And by readiness, what we're talking about is margin profile. Are you able to make a profit on that product when it moves from being something that you sell and you take all the margin to when it becomes something that you're selling at a wholesale market? Wholesale, where you're having to split that margin? Yeah, that's right. So are you able to do that? Are you able to play in the marketing mix? Because each of these retailers have their own way of marketing, their own website, their own in store promotions, their own, you know, teams, influencer, everything. And if you can't be part of those initiatives that make that retailer tick, then you're already on the back foot. And so some of these questions are things that have to be asked. Now I want to talk about investors.
- [39:10]
B
Yes.
- [39:11]
A
Because you keep saying the investors, the investors. So we got to talk about these investors.
- [39:15]
B
The investor here.
- [39:17]
A
I mean, and listen, it's fair to say I was offered to invest in your brand. Yes. Early on.
- [39:23]
B
Yes.
- [39:24]
A
Now.
- [39:25]
B
Oh, this was early.
- [39:26]
A
Yes, I remember like super early. You wrote me in at Covid times because I was leaving my house. I think you had to send. We couldn't meet because I sent you a package.
- [39:35]
B
I wasn't living in Brooklyn and I.
- [39:37]
A
Was living in Bel Air and I got this package and I decided not to invest.
- [39:42]
B
Yes.
- [39:42]
A
And again, for me that was a decision because two things. I think you at that point you hadn't launched. And my investment thesis is that I only ever invest in people that have a track record. It's pre launch. And the reason for that is because I want to see somebody who has launched and they're 6, 912 months in and they're tracking or I want to see the track record because I'm Spending my own money.
- [40:07]
B
That's fair.
- [40:07]
A
So it's like, for me, it's one or the other. And I don't invest in people that haven't had a previous track record. And they haven't. It was pre launch, so that was my decision. But I was like, let's stay in touch. Let's see what you're doing. I watched you. I've been a customer. It's like I've, you know, I used to carry bundles of your product in England for my sisters. I'd be like, I'm going to support this brand. But you did find investors, and you did pretty good finding investors. Right. When we talk about black women massively over indexing as entrepreneurs and founders in this country, and yet only receiving 1% of the capital that goes into, you know, new businesses, you were one of the very, very few. What do we say, 30 women to have raised money.
- [40:50]
B
30 women at the time, absolutely.
- [40:52]
A
Very. Like a minuscule amount, like ridiculously low. You were one of them.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah.
- [40:58]
A
So talk about the relationship with your investors and how you were working with them. In hindsight, what worked, what didn't.
- [41:05]
B
Okay. So, yes, we had a plethora of investors that were, I would say, you know, we had a mix of high growth, as you mentioned, like, you know, this could take off in three years. Yeah, we could be good. And then other ones that are a little bit more hands on, like Katherine Powers, she's one of my investors.
- [41:22]
A
She, you know, she's my neighbor.
- [41:24]
B
Katherine is she.
- [41:25]
A
We live opposite each other.
- [41:26]
B
I love, love, love, love. And she is hands on. She's an operator. She understands. And I think that, you know, there was a level of patience there as well. But also this is high growth.
- [41:39]
A
Well, and also this is one of the things I think is really important because not all money is created equal. And one of the things that I have learned and you learn the hard way is that when you start to raise money, you'll hopefully make friends and you'll make partners of your investors. And what I've learned is that my investors that are operational, were operators in their former lives are infinitely more useful to me.
- [42:07]
B
Would you look at that?
- [42:08]
A
You know, just came straight out of school and went into private equity. So I think about somebody like Andrew Rosen who I can call and say, hey, Andrew, like, you know, on this deal, five year strategy. That's right. You know, can we talk about this? Or I'm opening a store in, you know, a mall in Miami. What are you paying? Or I can say to him, you know, Andrew, this shelving in the new, you know, store is not working. What do you recommend? And he will have answers for all of those things.
- [42:36]
B
That is what you want.
- [42:37]
A
Experience is there. That's what you want.
- [42:38]
B
Yes.
- [42:39]
A
But you're saying you didn't necessarily have.
- [42:41]
B
I could count on each. Yeah. So I know I had two people that I have to shout out. Ben Bennett, you know, he's a builder. And I think both Ben and Katherine both knew that we were solving a hard question. Again, like, once you get to Sephora, then what. How are you getting that customer in there? Because that will require capital. So, yeah, that's the relationship. And let me be very clear. I still have a great relationship with all my investors. Good for you.
- [43:06]
A
Yeah.
- [43:06]
B
So I.
- [43:07]
A
Very important. You don't know when you're gonna need them again.
- [43:09]
B
Listen, it's a small world. I mean, I know that working in the industry, all these people that, you know that you intern with are now CEOs and editor in chiefs. So that was really important for me.
- [43:18]
A
No, relationships are really important. But what you're saying is that your investors were at odds with one another and you weren't able to manage that because you had one set of investors saying one thing and another set saying something else.
- [43:31]
B
I think that generalizes it because I do think that at different phases of our company, we had different problems, different problems to solve for. Again, things were good until they were not. So it's like the issue. I think the major issue was like, now you're at this retailer, how are you going to sell through? Was the major question. And the capital required to sell through between your influencer marketing machine, you know, the pay the cost of Meta, all these traditional playbooks that we were using, is that working for your core customer to get her into that? That required more time. Time is money. And we required more capital to figure that out. I think in hindsight, we raised just enough to figure out one problem, one issue, one solution, instead of raising not.
- [44:18]
A
Enough to get you through, you know, two years.
- [44:22]
B
Two years to actually figure out, oh, that's the machine. It works. We're gonna power through this.
- [44:27]
A
And sometimes that in of itself. And I think I speak to a lot of female founders who say to me, you know, Emma, I'm trying to raise a million, I'm trying to raise a, you know, 1.5. And I'm like, why you need 10? You know, the idea of, again, because like, a million dollars is such an enormous amount of money, but by the same token, when your goals are so audacious and when the competition is so, so crazy, it's really hard to think about what you could do on $2.7 billion. And then adding the complexity of that level of retail onto that, it would have been insurmountable.
- [45:00]
B
Or interviewing someone who you think would be an amazing president. Right. And then you're talking, you're lounging, you're schmoozing, you're coming to the la, going to the New York. And they're like, my salary is a million dollars. Can you afford me? And by the way, you know, I could do 600k for you, but I'm gonna need to hire 15 people. Cause I'm not the operator. I am the strategist. I will go get this for you, but I need a team. I can't afford you or the team. So now we're back to point A.
- [45:28]
A
Because you were trying to hire a president.
- [45:30]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [45:30]
A
Why were you trying to hire a president?
- [45:32]
B
Because I know what I'm good at. Okay? I can do the product. I know the storytelling. I know. I know this girl. I need someone to have my back to build the blocks for the infrastructure to kind of create this cocoon for us to be safe, to be able to scale.
- [45:49]
A
Yeah.
- [45:49]
B
I was going for a president, going for a CEO. And we've tried people that were not successful, by the way, that investors helped me find, that were not successful. So behind the scenes, I've had that.
- [46:00]
A
I've had that.
- [46:00]
B
Yeah, you're not going to strike goal every single time. But we knew what the issue was, and we knew that we needed to hire the right team. In fact, to be very transparent, I fired the entire team almost in November because we knew that we needed to get in a big girl team to get you there. We got in the big girl team, and we still didn't have the track record. And we're like, actually, never mind. You don't have anything shiny to give me. You don't. You're in full chain. The velocity isn't there. Sure, you have a good team. But to your point earlier about that.
- [46:29]
A
Track record, it just wasn't there. Talk to me about the turning point. When did you know things were no longer going to work?
- [46:37]
B
Ay, ay. It kept turning because right when I thought it was no longer gonna work, we got an investment from, like, l'.
- [46:45]
A
Oreal.
- [46:47]
B
And these were things that were like, are we done? Are we not? You know, it was kind of like cautious optimism up until the final hour, where we thought, you know, we're talking to Very like prominent business owners that we could possibly acquire this company. And the deals just didn't flow through. And then as a human, especially a very intuitive one, I'm like, okay, universe, these doors are shutting. Maybe it's time. Maybe this is not gonna work. And that happened up until a month before making that decision. Slowly, kind of, you know, laying off the team, slowly pulling back to preserve cash Runway, to make sure that we can even close out this company. Because that requires money too.
- [47:29]
A
You feel like you are in slow motion.
- [47:32]
B
Like death by a thousand cuts.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah, death by a thousand cuts.
- [47:35]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [47:37]
A
That's very.
- [47:38]
B
And some investors that were working hard behind the scenes trying to make those investments, trying to do, you know, the soft landing, as they call it, and it didn't come to fruition.
- [47:47]
A
At what point did you know I have to close the door?
- [47:51]
B
As I mentioned, in November, we hired a new team. Badass team.
- [47:56]
A
When you say a new team, like, how many people?
- [47:58]
B
We see five people.
- [47:59]
A
Five people head of work. So you're hiring five people. But you know that the business is like spiraling at this point. Did you think they could save you?
- [48:06]
B
Okay, let's walk back a little bit.
- [48:07]
A
Yeah, please.
- [48:08]
B
So when we hired the team that was a hand holding with the investors that we're getting a new team, the team that you had was not working. We're getting you a new team, and we're gonna raise just enough to get them in the house. But we need a big girl team to come in, audit this business, understand the path forward, create a plan, sit down with Sephora, and then march forward. Now, this was pre our president, pre tariffs, and pre other hits that were just waiting to happen. Right. So by the time the team came in, actually, oh, we thought we needed to raise one, it's actually gonna be 2 million. And everyone was just like, all right, like that. We're not gonna give you $2 million. You know what I mean?
- [48:53]
A
There wasn't a point for you where you were like, I've raised one. I've raised 1.7. Like, what is another one gonna do for me? Because at that point, the signals are there.
- [49:01]
B
Yeah.
- [49:02]
A
There wasn't a part of you that's like, I can't keep doing this, even if only for yourself.
- [49:06]
B
And let's be very clear, this is not a. This is a tricky thing to say. This is a business thing. Right. It's not like a, you know, a minority founder thing. Right. Like, if you're raising tranches of capital, you're gonna be exhausted. It's A hamster wheel. You can't do your work, you can't do your job.
- [49:23]
A
You can't do your job and you.
- [49:24]
B
Can'T thrive at anything.
- [49:25]
A
Raising is a full time job.
- [49:26]
B
It's a full time job. Right. So the thing is also like I will work, so I will do it. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm prep, I'm prepping for an investor call like weeks out of giving birth. You know, I was the one that.
- [49:43]
A
Would, what led onto all of this. You had, you had two kids. So I work hard, no doubt.
- [49:52]
B
I think, I think again it's like was the 2 million gonna be enough? Right? I think that's the question. But if your team, you hire a cfo, if they're telling you it's gonna be enough, then you're trusting that it's gonna be enough.
- [50:05]
A
So you're the opposite. For me, I don't trust any.
- [50:07]
B
Uh huh.
- [50:07]
A
I feel like everyone's talking to me all the time.
- [50:10]
B
I know now you know, but I do, I think there's a lot of.
- [50:13]
A
Being a founder, a CEO, an operator, where your job is to question everything.
- [50:19]
B
Everything.
- [50:20]
A
Right. And I think that diagnosing the problems and being able to take the benefit of like what is happening over and over again, like that is your job. Right? That is your job to say this is not working. I think the unfortunate thing for you is that there was a severe lack of anyone around you that was able to point you in the right direction. And I think that that is gonna be the case for so many people. Unfortunately to this right now.
- [50:50]
B
Yeah.
- [50:50]
A
What would you, if you could go back and do things differently, thinking about around the raise, stepping into support, like really what are the key lessons that you've learned and how would you do things differently going forward?
- [51:03]
B
I think understanding what type of business you wanna run, if you're gonna go to higher route, you have to hire the big girl team early, you have to raise the capital early and you have to set out those milestones to get to those metrics and be very clear of that waterfall backwards.
- [51:22]
A
Like the goal is this.
- [51:24]
B
So year one to two we need to be here and if we're not there, we need to ask questions 2 to 5. We need to be here. If the revenue's not here and the margin's not here, what are we doing or who are we hiring to get there? And I don't think that we did that versus actually sitting down together to understand what type of business are we building? Is it that high growth or Are we taking the slow and steady route? None of them are wrong. Because I think that also begs the question when it comes to high growth, your cadence of launching products, you know, is that really our ethos and philosophy? If we're coming back and saying less is more, but. But also launching a product every quarter, you know, how does that actually work? Sitting down with Sephora to understand, like when you have that one shelf space, it's one in, one out. So the product that you believe in, that might take a little bit more time to market, that gots to go if you're going to be launching a new lip oil powder, whatever have you. So I think sitting down to really map out that kind of ecosystem and what are we really building, I would also just not launch in so many doors. We ended up in 600. We launched 600 doors in August after a year in Sephora.
- [52:36]
A
After a year. But that must have signaled that something was going right in the 270. No, you must have been.
- [52:43]
B
We had. Yes, of course.
- [52:44]
A
We had attraction, Sephora, you had hot spots, hotspots.
- [52:48]
B
So Sephora.
- [52:50]
A
I think that this is an absolutely genius lesson in sometimes not listening to everybody around you. Because this is one of the things where to go from if you were killing it in 250 doors, to go to 600 is one thing, but if you had hotspots, then the hotspots should have been looked at and be tried to replicate in the coolest one 600. Right. Like, it's like, how do we look at all of those markets where we're tracking, figure out what the common ground is, what the similarity is and then try to pattern match that to the remaining 600 that's in the fleet, not let's roll in to the next 600. Because quite frankly, you didn't have the team, you didn't have the infrastructure and you didn't have the finance to be able to operate in 600 doors of.
- [53:37]
B
Anywhere and wait for this of the hotspots. A lot of that love was organic. So how do you even turn a machine on to something that is happening organically versus like, okay, we're giving this machine platform or, you know, marketing thing, it's giving us a ROAS of 2. I know what to do to make it a roas of four. It was just pure love. That love that you felt when we shut down. It wasn't a measurable thing that we could apply to our strategy to get those hotspots to then make the other markets on fire. But then Again, Emma, I'm in 250, there are hot spots. There's a glimmer of hope, and I need to go back out there and raise. And what we raised on was, hotspots are cool, but can you give us more doors? I'm like, we gotta get more doors to get more money. And they're like, yeah, more doors, new team. And here I go. Okay, more doors, new team. I'm going almost like a zombie. I'm almost like a zombie. I'm like, okay, this is. And again, this is like, Harlem hustle mentality. This is what I gotta do to get the bag. Let's go get the next bag.
- [54:47]
A
I hear you. Listen, I come from plaster, which is like Harlem in England. Right? Same thing, right? Same culture. I did not go to business school. In fact, I left school at a very young age. And so I totally hear where your decision making was coming from. I think that some things need to come from me. Yes, you said it.
- [55:08]
B
Yes.
- [55:09]
A
But some of it is common sense. And it's easy in hindsight to sit here and say that, but again, you and I decided to do this podcast together because we were like, we're gonna let people know.
- [55:19]
B
We're gonna show them what it looks like to fail out loud, learn out loud with courage, and make sure that the path forward is a clear one.
- [55:28]
A
Yes.
- [55:28]
B
This is my first business venture.
- [55:30]
A
You give me goosebumps. And it will be your last.
- [55:33]
B
Of course, not. Once an entrepreneur, always an entrepreneur. But everyone has questions of what happened? This is what happened.
- [55:40]
A
This is what happened.
- [55:41]
B
This is what happened. And have I learned? Absolutely. And have my investors learned? Absolutely. I think one of the first phone calls was like, listen, I thought, I wish we did things differently together.
- [55:51]
A
Well, and I love that you say that, because I think that the idea is always. Especially when you have to shut something down. It's like, you know, oh, poor you. And I think that it is, oh, poor you. But the investors lost their money too.
- [56:03]
B
Right?
- [56:03]
A
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- [58:41]
B
Coming from what advice?
- [58:44]
A
Let's reframe it. Actually, what is a piece of advice that you would give to other founders and entrepreneurs from a finance and operations standpoint, given what you know now?
- [58:55]
B
Got it. A company that is D2C is completely from a company that's full chain distribution. You have to give yourself time to know what works at Ulta, Target, Sephora, whatever, because what's working on your website might not work on that franchise or whatever space you are in. And that's important because my margin profile for my Lip Oil is Different from my margin profile, from my skin tint. Right. So if you look at the business from a P and L perspective, you're like, why is your margin going down but your velocity, the number of skus that you're selling is going up. Oh, that's because we're in 600 doors from 250. So the inventory is on shelf, but we're not making as much money on that because, you know, you can crunch your margins even more. But it was a very expensive, beautiful formula. How can you optimize with what you have right now based off the learnings you have to give yourself time and raise. If you're raising capital, raise enough money to figure out those hard questions before you put a light a match to that thing.
- [60:01]
A
Yeah, right. I also think that one of my biggest learnings is that how you start is never really how it goes. Yeah, right. So in the beginning of like, I'll take good amount because I feel like it's like, you know, the product and the journey was so similar in so many ways. But, you know, what we did in the beginning was make a very complex product. Right. It was like this four piece trouser waistband and reinforced belt loops and recovery fabric. And as you say all these things, this is just like more dollars, more dollars, more dollars. Even the, you know, the pocket lining was special because it acted as this tummy tech technology. Now, as you grow and you scale, putting the same amount of value into your product at every stage is very difficult. Customers were clearly saying to me, I want a sub$100 product. And I was like, well, I make jeans that are $169. And to give you everything that you want at 99 isn't. Isn't possible. So we had to go, okay, are you gonna trade down the customer into a cheaper product but potentially win more customers? Are you going to then move everybody that was paying 169 into a different product or is there so much market share there? These are questions, decisions, and those are not things to be taken lightly. And so as you said, when you're starting to whatever you start with, once you get to that fleet of 600 doors, it might not be that that offering looks anything like that. Right. And I talk about this idea of transitioning on the way up all the time, meaning things have to change. Team changes, the way you operate, changes, your packaging might change. Also the formulations and what you're selling might change the product range. Right. Change. And so I do think as a, it is your job to constantly be looking at what you're doing and saying, the business we have today, for the shape of the business we have today, what is the right business that we have to run? And that is a very difficult thing to do. When you started with something so beautiful, that got all of this traction. But at the end of the day, what you were running on day one versus what you were running when you were in 600 doors was two very different things.
- [62:10]
B
Two very different things. And also, very quickly, the speed is a thing.
- [62:14]
A
The timing is a thing.
- [62:15]
B
Because what you're explaining right now in terms of. It's called evolution. Evolution doesn't happen overnight. Right. So if you're moving so quickly, we know that. We know the problems. We actually know them. We knew that we had to improve those markets, and actually, we were doing that.
- [62:29]
A
Yeah.
- [62:30]
B
The time difference, we increased that, you know, the margins from, you know, being at literally at one point, 58% higher, and we had paths to that being 72% within one year. So I would argue that that was impressive, and we did the work to do that.
- [62:45]
A
Very impressive.
- [62:46]
B
But if you're already running out of cash, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't give you that Runway again, once again, to figure out the evolution and the mistakes along the way. If you are not funded for that.
- [63:00]
A
No.
- [63:01]
B
So you have to have the funding. You have to have the team. And I would argue that even with me not even having, I guess, quote, unquote, dream team, and I will give my team credit because, again, they built this thing with me. It's beautiful, right?
- [63:14]
A
They got you so far.
- [63:15]
B
They got you so far. I would still be knocking on people's doors, Former founders, existing founders. Like, hey, what's working for you over there? What's your margins? What are you charging? What are they charging you? So I would be asking those questions.
- [63:29]
A
So you were doing that. You were trying to.
- [63:31]
B
Absolutely.
- [63:32]
A
To get information.
- [63:33]
B
Oh, my goodness. From everywhere. From everyone, including Sephora. Whenever there was a Sephora summit, you send me sitting next to Allison Hahn, like, okay, so tell me about what happened with occ. Why is it no longer here? I'm asking those questions. I'm calling on the side. But regardless, you know, you still need time and money to get that right.
- [63:53]
A
This is a difficult question to ask. What did you do wrong?
- [63:56]
B
Ooh, I love that question. Why is it difficult?
- [63:58]
A
Well, you know.
- [63:59]
B
No.
- [64:00]
A
Nice girl.
- [64:02]
B
You're funny. Number one, I think I went into this thinking. I think this is a tricky thing, right? They say, know what you're not good at and hire someone to do that.
- [64:12]
A
That's what I say all the time.
- [64:13]
B
But not. But you also need to have the literacy in that. Be careful. I'm like, I'm gonna focus on product people, PR positioning, packaging, brand elevation, community. Oh, you got this. So if I'm hiring you for finance, I was expecting you to really kind of bleed through this. And, yes. Did I have literacy enough to go in and explain line by line why this went up and down? But like, babe, why did the margin go to 58? What happened here? How can we get it quicker? And I think by the time I caught onto it, it's like, is it too late? Is it too late? Or should we have gotten that quicker?
- [64:52]
A
Not enough understanding of what you didn't. Yes. Is that fair?
- [64:56]
B
Not enough understanding of what I didn't know. That's fair.
- [64:59]
A
Fair.
- [64:59]
B
That's fair. I should have fired quicker.
- [65:03]
A
That is a.
- [65:03]
B
It sucks. And the feeling of failure and the.
- [65:06]
A
Feeling there was, this is my team. These people I love. Like, what is it?
- [65:10]
B
No. I was in disbelief that these people would risk their lives to come work for me. Risk their lives. But I mean, again, like, I was like, this is a dream come true. Like, you want to work here? Wow, I'm so honored. You know, I think I'm so honored.
- [65:26]
A
While you're paying somebody to do a job.
- [65:27]
B
Yes. Crazy.
- [65:29]
A
Oh, not me, girl.
- [65:30]
B
Blasphemy. So I think, yeah, it was that honoring feeling. And do you think there were multiple.
- [65:36]
A
Times where you should have exited people from the business and you didn't?
- [65:40]
B
I wouldn't say multiple times. Honestly. I think by the second time, I knew that people had to leave, so I was learning. But those two people were too long. I only had, what, 10 people maximum at the height of us. So, yeah, so two people. Two people is like the culture. It's like the culture.
- [65:54]
A
Totally.
- [65:55]
B
So when they leave, everyone feels it. But I think that. And these were people that were, I guess you could say, high up. So those are fantastic lessons, you know, so firing quickly having true literacy, but also not having too much literacy. I was on the marketing calls asking questions about this asset versus that asset. I was in way too many parts of the business doing everything, but not anything excellently outside. I mean, I can't.
- [66:20]
A
Sorry.
- [66:21]
B
I'm gonna take that back. Because products were great. You know, just really kind of like, into many things and available to answer those calls. Like, I was like, taking calls at 10 o' clock at night. Like, yeah, what are you. What are you saying? Like, breastfeeding? It Was just too much, you know, and it felt unsustainable.
- [66:38]
A
Do you have. Very honest.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah.
- [66:41]
A
Yeah.
- [66:42]
B
And if I were to bring the company back, for instance. Right to your point earlier today, I would need someone with the track record. A track record of failure and success. Because I've spoken to people that have the amazing track records that just like, this is too good to be true.
- [66:58]
A
I talk about that.
- [66:59]
B
You wouldn't know what to do with my business. You don't understand.
- [67:02]
A
Sephora isn't too much. Success actually masked so many problems in a business. You don't know what's going wrong. When you're on an absolute tear, you miss a lot of things. When a business is, like, difficult and clunky and you have to get rubrics. Yeah. You uncover so many things and that's really helpful. So I agree with you. You need somebody that you can work with that has had both journeys, that can actually look ahead and see the problems before they're coming.
- [67:31]
B
I love that.
- [67:31]
A
It's future proof in a business. Right. And that is. It's so important to know and to have these lessons, like, really spilled out. I want to ask you the unpopular thing. Cause if I was a man.
- [67:41]
B
Let's say it.
- [67:42]
A
If I was a man, I couldn't ask you this question. Let's talk about the babies.
- [67:46]
B
If I was a man. It was funny. Yes. Yes.
- [67:48]
A
Well, you know. Cause nobody wants to. I talk about the kids all the time. And I talk about how much I miss with my kids.
- [67:55]
B
Right.
- [67:55]
A
Okay. You know how much I don't do as a mom. You had these two babies in the middle of starting this company. Like, listen, you have the most beautiful, exceptional, heavenly children. So I'm not asking you about that. But when you think about the timing and you think about what you were trying to build.
- [68:17]
B
Yes.
- [68:18]
A
Like, just.
- [68:20]
B
It was hard.
- [68:21]
A
It's so hard. Thank you. It's so hard. What are you talking about? Yes.
- [68:25]
B
I got sick. I was so stressed out, and I think I still need time to understand. Was I burnt out? I don't even know because I was just so used to being on go.
- [68:35]
A
Well, I can maybe answer that for you. Well, how did you take off after each.
- [68:41]
B
What are you talking about?
- [68:42]
A
Exactly. I knew the answer to this.
- [68:44]
B
I was answering a PR call on the. Literally in between contractions. It was insane. But I'm like, this is what you gotta do. This is the thing. This is. Business is hard, you know?
- [68:55]
A
And that has an impact. It does have an impact on not just the business. Forget the business. That has an impact on you, your health, your wellbeing and your ability to come back into the business. Yes, absolutely. So let's call it what it is, because I've been there. I had Lola, my second child, three months before we started Good American. She came to the launch at the Grove and I remember that day like it were a dream. Like, you know, I remember Chrissie doing like my makeup and I thought, God, I look good. But I don't know what this face.
- [69:30]
B
Is going on inside.
- [69:31]
A
It was somebody else. Because like so many women that soon after having a child, I was not in my own body, I was not in my own thoughts. And this child was here and I'd brought the kid from England. And then, you know, it's like we're at the Grove and the photographers are flashing and Chloe's there. And I remember Chloe saying, like, are you good? And I was like, yeah, like, no, no, I wasn't good. But then.
- [70:01]
B
What are you gonna do, though? What are you gonna do?
- [70:02]
A
Well, I wanna talk about the realities of it because again, we have to skirt around these issues so much. That would have also taken a toll, let's be honest about what it was. You have two kids while you've got this third child of a business where it's not all working out and it's a huge distraction and hugely draining of your energy. That's the truth of it.
- [70:22]
B
I thought that was normal. I thought that was just what it is. Because, you know, you turn around and you see like Whitney Wolf with a three month old. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Nasdaq. I'm like, this is what this is. This is the grind. I worked for Rebecca Minkoff when she was literally nine months pregnant, bouncing on a medicine ball, asking for seltzer water, preparing for a New York fashion Week. She did it.
- [70:43]
A
So you think as women, maybe we're setting ourselves up by putting those images forward of like you can have it on.
- [70:50]
B
Are we setting ourselves up or is this the reality? Cause my mom did it.
- [70:54]
A
I don't know. Yes, and our moms. So our moms all did it. But it's a different, It's a different thing when you are being asked to manage somebody else's idea of what your business should be because they've given a capital injection. You have a team, you have. So we're unique, uniform, first and second time mom. You don't know how to do too many things that you're doing. Yeah, right.
- [71:18]
B
Yes.
- [71:18]
A
And so I would say there's too much learning having to happen. At one time, my mind is still.
- [71:26]
B
I still don't know how to silence. And that's why I told you, like I felt freedom. I get you guys can't have the lip oil, but oh my goodness, what I've been living the past six years, three of which you guys have witnessed. We just made four. Just made four. I've been. I took my second child. WWD called, I'm like, I'm not missing this. Booked a room, took the nanny. That 10 week old baby was on a flight from JFK to LAX. I put her upstairs, I pumped, I got dressed. That dress, what I'm wearing, all I think of, you know, like all like brown. She was upstairs and I fed her in between my meeting my panel. Excuse me. In front of this massive room that I'm like, I'm not saying no to that. And then I. And I breastfed upstairs. And then I was in a car going over stats to go to my investor meeting.
- [72:23]
A
You did it because you didn't feel like you could say no.
- [72:26]
B
Yeah, a little bit of that, like scarcity mindset. Yeah.
- [72:31]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [72:32]
B
Like I couldn't. If I miss this opportunity. Yeah.
- [72:35]
A
It's never gonna come back again. I'll never have another chance.
- [72:37]
B
Yeah.
- [72:37]
A
Which by the way, you know now is not true. Right.
- [72:40]
B
Hello?
- [72:40]
A
Okay, just. I just wanna check that I got some sleep now because it's a really important point to know that when you're deserving of your moment, it's always there for you, it's always coming back. And I think that that's something that I suffered with myself. I speak about this all the time. I used to wake myself up in the middle to answer questions that were coming from America on a contract. I take flights that I didn't need to take because I felt like if I was there then it wouldn't. Like the deal wouldn't land. And what you learn is that none of that is true. That is all self imposed, your mind. And it's just honestly a fragment of your imagination. But what is real is the mum guilt. Right. And I want to ask you because I think so many mums feel this. But when you're working, when you're pitching, when you're traveling, when you're managing investors doing the late nights, how did you cope with that?
- [73:33]
B
The mom guilt?
- [73:35]
A
Sometimes it's not about coping. Maybe the question is, how did you navigate it?
- [73:39]
B
I moved through it similar to how I moved through fear, I would still do something, terrified, I would still go through it. What can I say? I think that again, this is a good and bad thing, right? My mom was a worker. My mom would be gone, she would drop me off at school, and she'll come back home at 11pm So I also think that, I'm not saying that's the right thing to do because, of course, I missed some times with my mama, but I, I, she inspires me.
- [74:04]
A
But by the way, that's how so many of our mothers work, especially single moms.
- [74:08]
B
My mom wasn't a single mom, but especially single moms.
- [74:10]
A
Like, I was raised by a single mom. And I made the dinner for the kids because she would get in at 9 o', clock. And that's just what it was. There was no, you know, we've been fed this idea that we have to be there for every single milestone of our kids. Be there in the morning, be there at night, do whatever needs to happen during the day. I mean, I certainly wasn't raised like that. It would be wonderful if that were the reality for a lot of working women, especially entrepreneurial working women, but it just ain't.
- [74:35]
B
I'm sad, but I have, like, nanny cams and, you know, FaceTimes, and I'm very present when I'm with them, and it fills my cup.
- [74:44]
A
Do you think that motherhood gave you a different perspective on failure?
- [74:48]
B
Ooh, failure's not an option for me. I think I move now with more intention. If this is gonna take me away from my kids kids, what is it going to yield for me? And for them as the breadwinner is like, I got to bring home the bacon. So what do I need to do to get there without hopefully sacrificing them? You know, them kids in the bed with me at night, you know, like, they, when I'm at home, they have no idea. Sometimes, like, or if I have to do something, they're with me, you know, they're with me at Sephora, literally. My daughter is like, literally cleaning up the shelves. She's like, mom, these are yours. What are they doing here?
- [75:27]
A
This is yours.
- [75:28]
B
So, yeah, I think, again, the balance is a mirage. The failure gets me, like, okay, I'm on the ground, I'm on the floor. What do I need to do to make sure that I'm failing up? And for me right now, that means sleeping. That means getting the acupuncture, getting the services, getting the massage, getting the therapy to reframe my mindset out of what I now know as Survivor mode. Again, when you're one of 30, raising over a million, you're like the city is on my back. Everyone's watching me to get this right.
- [76:02]
A
Yes.
- [76:03]
B
And that can be a lot. And it can also be like if this business fails, this is what I was thinking before. I will never have another business and it's just not true. And these are things that I'm in real time right now, rewiring my mind to understand that I do. And I can have abundance and ease and protection and safety while having the creativity and pouring into this because I have shown that I can.
- [76:35]
A
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- [79:14]
B
I have plenty of friends that way. And it inspired me. I'm like, you made eight. You raised $82 million and walked away, and now you have a new job. Interesting.
- [79:21]
A
It happens, but it happens so much more than we know. Right. So, again, I think it's about understanding. Like, this thing happened in a business, and there are parts of it that you can learn from, and there's parts of it you should learn from. It's not really just about you. And I think as women, we would do really, really well to understand and be able to separate ourselves. I think it's one of the reasons we're speaking today is so that we can really share those learnings. And you have those learnings, and you are able to speak about it in such a way, mature way, like, you know, and there's not really that much distance. So I really give you so much credit for that.
- [80:00]
B
Thank you.
- [80:01]
A
But you should 100% have another business at some point, Right?
- [80:06]
B
Amen.
- [80:07]
A
This is the benefit of everything that you've been through. The best learning thing that you've learned, you will be able to take that with you somewhere.
- [80:14]
B
Absolutely. But as you're speaking, one thing does come up to me, because the anxiety went both ways. The anxiety was the fear of failing, but also the fear of succeeding, especially because you're one of three or 30. Excuse me. Like, when you see Mielle Honeypot and these brands actually making it and making that kind of success, then you still. I still have the community on my back. Like, are you gonna sell out again?
- [80:41]
A
You only know what you know with the information that you have.
- [80:45]
B
Yes.
- [80:45]
A
And so part of the reason that I'm doing this show is a. To inform people, right? Because we want to share the information. I talk about how small it is at the top. It's not small. It's minuscule. Literally, information gets passed around in this miniature little prism of, like, dudes.
- [81:02]
B
I was gonna say, man, what we're.
- [81:04]
A
Doing here is sharing the information to the people that don't necessarily have access to it. And so it's really, really key for everyone to understand what we're trying to do here. When you build a business, when you grow a business to the point that it is on that very narrow docket to be Acquired. The point is that you sell it.
- [81:28]
B
Acquired. Are we listening? Are we okay with this now? Because we're still having this conversation, though.
- [81:34]
A
We cannot still have this conversation because it is to the very detriment of what it means to grow something and to start something and then see the rewards of your work. You are supposed to have an exit plan if that's what you've optimised that business for. Now, some people start businesses and their family businesses that they want with their family for generations. Some people start businesses because they, you know, love, and they have a deep passion for what they do, and they just want this thing and they want to hold it and keep it.
- [82:01]
B
Different businesses.
- [82:01]
A
Different businesses. But if you build a business in a commercial sector that has opportunity to be acquired and you have that come at you, you should sell that company. That's it.
- [82:14]
B
Can we just make space for that? And I think really understand that. And I do think, honestly, we're making. Because of platforms like this, we're making strides. And I do think an interesting point that came out of this discourse was, well, if she sold, would this been the outpour? You know, sometimes it feels like it's like, oh, poor baby. We're comfortable there, but not ready to have those celebratory moments where people are like, ah, they're gonna change the formula. We talked about that today.
- [82:46]
A
Well, I even think the very way that you set those two things up, we cannot be more comfortable in this space.
- [82:53]
B
Scarcity of mindset than in this space.
- [82:55]
A
We cannot. Because as. As a culture, we cannot be comfortable in commiseration and not in celebration. It just won't work, Period. Right. End up. When you think about Ami Cole now, do you think about it as a success, as a failure, or as something else entirely?
- [83:15]
B
Both. Absolutely both. I was very successful with many things, and I failed at many things, and I'm grateful for both of them. Someone always says, like, don't take a compliment personal or a dispersonal. And this is the epitome of that. Am I excited? People are excited, absolutely. But I'm always thinking, so funny. I work and my mind works this way. When someone's like, oh, my God, I love this foundation. I'm like, oh, great. Did you. So what would you have done differently? Do you think that it lasts throughout the day? Like, I'm just that way. But I am. And you know what? Speaking of legacy, like, this is my mom. You know, I named it. That's my mom. She was one of the last people I told. I was terrified. I Didn't want to break her heart, you know, because in someone again, community is so beautiful. I was reading the Tiktoks and watching them. One woman was just in her car. She just parked her car. She was like, you know what we're talking. But like, this woman, this could have fed her family. You know, that acquisition that whatever could have been the legacy that she could feed not only my family, but my mom, my dad, you know, people back home in Senegal, the artists that I was just like, I can't wait to get a little cash so I can just give you the world, you know? And it took me having to talk to her, and she's like, girl, Oprah knows your name. You're good in my book. I'm like, oh, how many odds we beat? To be here is in some form successful.
- [84:41]
A
There's no denying of that. I mean, when you wrote the piece for the cut, it felt for me like you were. It was almost like a love letter to your community.
- [84:48]
B
Yeah.
- [84:49]
A
Why was it important for you to do that and to frame it that way?
- [84:52]
B
We started that way. It's just us. It's our DNA. You know what I mean? We're the brand. Singing in the shower, you know, sometimes we hit the notes. Sometimes it's embarrassing. We always set out to be the big sister next door to help you. There was no pro makeup artistry to it. It was very much like, you can take this and grab it and use it. It's foolproof, it's easy. You know, we took you through the branding and everything. I think it would be a dishonest as scary, embarrassing. I'm not embarrassed by it, but, like, how you could feel very vulnerable putting that version of the story out there. One thing you won't do is take my voice, my idea, my grit and my love. That's mine.
- [85:32]
A
That's yours. That's all yours.
- [85:34]
B
That's all mine.
- [85:34]
A
You wrote in the article, you said, why wasn't that enough about making, you know, a full range of colors that match all women of colour? What do you think the answer is to that question?
- [85:46]
B
I think we answered a lot of it today. You know, it's really, truly like, it's not enough. You need infrastructures and you need to have the reservoir to understand, especially if you're going out there to change systems. We're changing systems out here. That's hard work and it requires everyone to kind of hold hands on that. So having that reservoir to understand if you're trying to build a legacy company and brand, what would evolution look like. And how soon should it have started? For instance, like, we were in again. I'm so frustrated sometimes, too, because we were in the motion of this.
- [86:24]
A
I know.
- [86:24]
B
We sat down with Sephora to say, hey, are you gonna launch lighter shades? What does that look like? Are you prepared for that? You know, what's the storytelling there? And we were in the kitchen literally working out because you had understood that.
- [86:36]
A
You needed to expand.
- [86:36]
B
That's what I need to do. Yes. We have to expand. We literally, right now, our tagline was clean beauty made for melanin, rich skin. That's where we started.
- [86:46]
A
Yeah.
- [86:46]
B
If you go to Sephora right now, that tagline is different. We were ushering new chapters of evolution where we were celebrating rich stories and rich skin to be able to invite people to the. To the table to play with us and have that kind of rich feeling, whether it's formula, texture, undertones, all of that. But again, it required some time. So in hindsight, that's what I would say.
- [87:14]
A
Oh, exactly. You learned so much.
- [87:17]
B
I have. You really did. And I'm so grateful for that.
- [87:19]
A
No. And that. That really comes through. What do you think the hardest day at Ami Kole was? Damn.
- [87:29]
B
Can I say two days?
- [87:30]
A
Yeah, go on, give me the two days.
- [87:32]
B
One was team. There are certain people that just look at you with, like, an eye of, like, you're going to take us there. So it was really hard to just be like. And I get it, like, you know. You know, layoffs are hard. So I think just having that. And I think I was very transparent with my team as well. I led with pretty radical transparency. Like, we're fundraising. It's not going successful. We need more time. We're doing this because of that. We're scaling back because of that. So I think that, you know, finally, like, we're not gonna make it. Call was really tough not to do it through tears, because I'm like, this is final. Once you put it out there to your employees, it's final. The second is calling my investors. I don't wanna lose your money. I have to train myself, even how to understand money, to bring it into this company and treat it as the necessity, the energy. Like, I had to really reframe my mindset because coming from an immigrant grandfather, you wouldn't ask anything. Even if you were starving at home, you would never ask for money. How dare you? My dad's like, you're doing what?
- [88:29]
A
Yeah.
- [88:31]
B
So I had to reframe that. And then to go back for someone to believe in you. Precede with no track record with all these things. I'm like, hi, right here. This is why. This is how we got here. We need to move quick about this.
- [88:46]
A
This is happening. And you made those calls yourself?
- [88:48]
B
Yes, Every single one of them. I made myself talking to Kelly Rowland and one of my investors, like, girl. And then also learning from that, like, how people respond. You know, Some people are like, oh, girl.
- [89:01]
A
Like, what?
- [89:02]
B
You know? And some people like, are you okay?
- [89:04]
A
Did anyone give you shit?
- [89:06]
B
Like, give me, like, hard time.
- [89:07]
A
Hard time.
- [89:08]
B
No, honestly. Because behind the scenes, we were working.
- [89:11]
A
Yeah. You know, no one can give you as hard a time as you're gonna be giving yourself.
- [89:15]
B
Yourself. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. So those are the two hard days.
- [89:20]
A
That's insane.
- [89:20]
B
And then afterwards. And then afterwards, the community. The community. We were, like, expecting, like, okay.
- [89:27]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's a little frustrating in a way. Cause what I was seeing was that, you know, you made the announcement or, you know, the floodgates opened. The community was just, you know, speaking, and then your products started flying off the shelves. And I just.
- [89:44]
B
It's such a Sephora's, like, do we have hope?
- [89:46]
A
I know. I'm not.
- [89:47]
B
Do we have to give this back to you? I'm like, what are you talking about? I. We made literally, in 10 days what we made in a year.
- [89:54]
A
Oh, I want to cry. Like, I literally want to cry. It's hot.
- [89:59]
B
It's whiplash.
- [90:00]
A
It's whiplash. Yep. And it's a full sense of hope. Right.
- [90:04]
B
Because that's not sustainable. Once again.
- [90:07]
A
Exactly. The outpouring isn't sustainable.
- [90:10]
B
There's no infrastructure around that.
- [90:13]
A
No. And there's no way to scale that. What are you gonna do? Keep doing sad things?
- [90:16]
B
Unsustainable.
- [90:16]
A
Keep closing down? Like, it's just Be on a.
- [90:19]
B
On the floor, on a pole or something. And that's not my mo. That's not my MO either. I am full of light, and I do. I thrive off of that. You know, it took a lot to get there. And honestly, we were like, sorry, you can't get this lip oil. Like, I'm trying to get as many as we can. And hence why we had a final launch. Like, a part of that was to get people their things. You know, that was my North Star as well. So it's been difficult, and it's been a lot of emotions for everyone.
- [90:50]
A
For everyone.
- [90:51]
B
And including founders.
- [90:53]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [90:54]
B
I'm hearing founders stories that make me sad because they're like, oh, if you can't, then why? Why should I even try?
- [90:59]
A
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [91:02]
B
And that's why I'm here today, to make sure, you know, this is where I went wrong, where I went right, et cetera, et cetera. You need to fix this, because one person winning is not enough. We need 10 Danessa, Myricks and Fenty's and.
- [91:14]
A
And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And I will not stop thanking you for being brave and for being honest and for saying that. Because the whole point is that what happens to one doesn't necessarily happen to the other. Right? Some people make 150 calls to get investment. Some people get the investment the first time they ask for it.
- [91:33]
B
True.
- [91:34]
A
It's like the time, the culture, the moment. There are so many things that go into this, and I think that you are a cautionary tale, but you are not the be all and end all of what can and might happen. And I specifically want to say this to black female founders, because at the end of the day, a founder is a founder. There are stories, there are narratives, there are things that happen. There are commonalities. There are complete differences. And what you are right now is incredibly graceful for sharing your story, but it doesn't mean that what happened to you is going to replicate.
- [92:08]
B
I'm in a group. Everyone's like, you guys better keep going.
- [92:11]
A
You better keep going. You better keep going.
- [92:12]
B
I'm gonna hunt you down if you don't.
- [92:13]
A
Maybe with the benefit of some hindsight from you.
- [92:16]
B
Yes.
- [92:16]
A
So you announced that the brand is closing this month in September. So what do you think you're gonna do on your last day?
- [92:23]
B
Oh, my God. On my last day. And I think we should talk about this too. There's no last day. I think closing happens when you're selling. But I still have a lot of things to do to wind down the company officially.
- [92:35]
A
Let's talk about that.
- [92:36]
B
I don't think people know it. My lawyers told me, like, you need to be prepared. Like, closing down a company could be as tedious and time consuming and expensive as getting acquired. You just don't get, like, you don't get the baby out of it.
- [92:49]
A
You don't get the glory out of it.
- [92:50]
B
You don't get the glory out of it. But, like, it's gonna be a lot of work. And without the team.
- [92:55]
A
Do you know what that work entails right now?
- [92:56]
B
Yes, I do. So we've mapped that out and we are working really closely to be able to obviously have a memo and everyone to the investors and try to figure that out. So that's that. But I think in my next chapter, you told me to do this by year. Understand, like, what went wrong, what started to go wrong, what went right in case there was another venture and there will be another venture so that you don't repeat those mistakes. I know again what I'm really good at. And I know where my blind spots are. Product, community, storytelling, Being able to emotionally connect with someone not even knowing them. I do think I have that gift, so. So let's see what the universe does with that. And I'm being cautious also of, like, you know, how to make it fruitful versus scarcity. I'm so happy that I'm not in that scarcity mindset. And I think the freedom of owning your story and being transparent awards you that. Like, yes, cat's out the bag now. There's no pretending or, you know, keeping up this facade. Like, here you are in a bowling alley with all these creators and community people. Oh, my God, four years. Amazing. You're like, I don't know what tomorrow brings, but today I'm going to be president. I'm going to give you what you need. I'm going to share this story because I still believe in it, but I don't know what's going to happen. And I've learned to learn to move through that, which is difficult.
- [94:19]
A
What do you think that anyone can learn from your journey?
- [94:24]
B
Do it. Do it. Scared. Do it with the possibility of failure. Listen, one in ten businesses don't succeed. Can we also just talk about it? Like, listen, it is what it is business. Right? You get what I'm saying? So, like, you know, understanding the channel market fit. And if you're going to be adventurous or push the needle, make sure, like, all your partners are aligned with that and also present to you. Like, a lot of people ask, like, what are you gonna do for us? I'm like, okay, what are you gonna do for me, though? Like, how are we gonna actually manage this together? But stay true to what you are and also know who you're. Know the why. You talk about the why all the time. Know why you're doing this and who you're actually trying to connect to. Cause I think that that's the biggest gift. I've gained a family out of this. Like, I walk in the streets and I'm, like, overwhelmed with, like, oh, babe, you have no idea what you've done. And I'm like, oh, okay, it's true.
- [95:22]
A
It's true. You closed your piece in the Cut. Saying thank you to all of the women that let you be part of their daily routine.
- [95:29]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [95:30]
A
What do you want to say to those women now?
- [95:32]
B
I see you, girl. I see you, sis. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. And I think even more importantly, I did what my mom was able to do. Come to the shop and you start to realize the locals. Locals become your friends, become your mentors, start to share secrets and things like that. Like, that is beautiful. And we've been able to kind of create a space, a conduit, to create a safe space for that type of very emotional exchange to happen. And I'm so proud of that.
- [96:02]
A
Can you see past the, you know, the finalization and the closure of the company to understand what's next for you?
- [96:12]
B
And when you say that, do you mean, like, tactically, like, what job?
- [96:15]
A
Yeah, like, do you. Well, and that's the question. Looking for a job now?
- [96:18]
B
Yes, I am.
- [96:19]
A
I'm not gonna say that for you. So it's like, now you're looking for a job. Yeah.
- [96:23]
B
Now it's like trying to understand what the next chapter looks like, where you're combining the art and the money. Okay. As Jay Z said this, he's like, you know, I don't ascribe to the starving artists. It's like, literally, like, how do you create something beautiful but also something that can pay it forward? And for me, you know, that means providing not only for my family, but I'm still trying to figure out ways to give back to those artists that I see there's just so much more to be invested in. So I'm still thinking about that, but I don't think it'll be far from what I'm doing and what I've done. What I'm doing. What I've done at Amikole is what I've done my whole career. I was a person calling an influencer at L'. Oreal. Sorry, but, like, it's not 10,000, ask for 15. If there's 150 influencers and there are five that are women of color. Hi, can we get 20 more that are, you know, multicultural? If our goal, and it's always tied to the goal, it's money making decisions. Right? Like, if you're. If your goal is to acquire 1 billion new customers, it's not going to do it looking one way. So I was always doing that. I'm going to continue doing that. And I did it, you know, tactically and tangibly with Prada, with Ami Cole.
- [97:40]
A
But it's my DNA, but it is in your DNA. And I think that, you know, when you talk about the things that you're good at that you are uniquely good at outside of making a really beautiful product, it's very, very clear to me that you are an excellent marketeer, you're an excellent product person, that you really fundamentally understand an audience, their needs, and when you don't, you know how to go and figure out what it is that they need. And I feel like, like every brand needs that, every business needs that. And hopefully where you land is in a place where your gifts can be, like, really shared and can be really useful in an organization, and you'll be able to get that other side of things and that proximity to some of the business decisions and what's happening behind the scenes so that as you go forward, because I know you have another business in you at some point, Emma insists. Hello. I just know. Do you know what it is? It's like, I see so clearly what happened, and I think it was this great convergence of a number of different things. And you said it beautifully. Death by a thousand cuts. And what is interesting is your mindset right now that you know there's something in the future for you, but you're not too proud to say. There might be a little period in between that, that I take a job that I, you know, have a moment and figure out and understand what happened to me, and then in the future do something. And that just shows me that that is there for you, that that's going to happen for you. And I think that you're gonna find. You're gonna find out some very interesting things about yourself and about how people view you in the next few years that are gonna be excited, very exciting for the next venture. And I think that that is, you know, I look at like, your next few years. You're so young. You've made such an incredible impact. You are. I mean, you looks so. That skin is incredible. But, you know, I really do think that you're gonna be in this kind of stopgap and have this incredible learning moment that's gonna give birth to something else. And there is no. I'm so cheering you on. I'm cheering you on for this next couple of years. I'll be cheering you on in the future. I have said it a couple of times in this podcast, but I appreciate you, beyond Shara, for coming and doing the hard thing and doing it because you have a true love for the women that you are serving and sitting here today. You're doing exactly what you've been doing for the last four or five years.
- [100:04]
B
Thank you.
- [100:04]
A
You're coming out with something that nobody, nobody does. No one does it. So I'm so unbelievably grateful to you and I know that we're gonna have so many comments, we're gonna have so many people getting in touch. What I really want out of this is that the right energy and the right thing comes to you. So I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be wishing and hoping and manifesting and praying that the right thing comes your way. Cause you really deserve it.
- [100:30]
B
I received that. Thank you so much.
- [100:31]
A
Okay, now I've got rapid fire questions for you. What is the first thing you do when you wake up?
- [100:36]
B
I pray. I do. I do.
- [100:39]
A
What's the last thing you do before you go to bed?
- [100:41]
B
Unfortunately, I'm on my screen. I'm like, I'm either watching the nanny cam like a stalker psycho, or I'm like, one last TikTok. One last TikTok. Oh, it's terrible.
- [100:53]
A
Blue light, you're in your life. I mean, that's fine. What is a book that changed your life?
- [100:56]
B
Oof. The hard things about the hard things. Andrew Korvitz. And it's about the hard things about the hard.
- [101:04]
A
Literally the hard things about the hard things. I don't know that book. The title says we all need to read it.
- [101:11]
B
And it's very tactical as well.
- [101:13]
A
It is.
- [101:14]
B
Uh huh. And it's. And it's the things that I wasn't good at. The hard conversations like, you gots to go.
- [101:19]
A
You gots to go.
- [101:20]
B
This is the end of your ride for you now.
- [101:21]
A
You know, you're like, see it, honey.
- [101:23]
B
And there's another one though.
- [101:24]
A
I need to learn that.
- [101:25]
B
But it's about love.
- [101:26]
A
Can I just tell you a quick framing that I have just. I wish I'd have said it in the podcast. So here's always my framing. Anytime I have to let someone go, which happens, right? It happens in the usual course of events. It happens because I've had to do productions in force over my time because, you know, not everything goes for Right. I always think deeply about that person, I really do. But the other thing that I think about is the other person that could be in that job. You not being what's needed in that role is stopping somebody else from having that role and stopping the company from thriving and therefore us being able to hire other people. And it's a recontextualization. I used to think of it as A bit of a cheat, but it isn't because is the truth. And when you stick in a place that's not allowing you to move forward, you're not helping yourself to hire more people. You're actually reducing your ability. So it's just.
- [102:20]
B
I'm laughing as I go through a divorce. I'm like, actually, is that too. You might be stopping me from my next husband.
- [102:27]
A
Literally. So true. Stopping you from what you're supposed to have and the husband. There you go. What are you aspiring to in your next chapter?
- [102:38]
B
Yeah, I am aspiring to abundance and ease and a different form of ease that comes through not laziness or slowing downness per se, but making sure it's actually impactful. So by that, I think something I learned to quote, you know, even when I was younger, you work hard or you can work smart. In this next chapter, I want to work smart.
- [103:04]
A
Good for you. As you should. What's a beauty trend that you wish would die? Die.
- [103:09]
B
Okay.
- [103:10]
A
You're the person to ask.
- [103:13]
B
It's very controversial because I'm in Los Angeles.
- [103:16]
A
Go on, go on.
- [103:17]
B
Fillers on the lips, just overfilling. I just think that sometimes it's like, there's something so beautiful about aging and, like, expression. Yeah. I don't. I don't want to say die, but just let's tone it down. Like two MMs.
- [103:35]
A
I love that you gave some specificity there. Just 2 mm.
- [103:38]
B
Okay.
- [103:40]
A
What is one thing that you value now that you didn't value when you started? Ami Cole.
- [103:46]
B
I'm literally going back to myself in Harlem, like, on the floor, like, trying to. Being careful with my time. I do think that I was a yes girl. I said yes to everything, like taking the coffee with the intern and all the things that I knew I didn't have the bandwidth for, but I overexerted because I was just so grateful, you know? So I think that in that moment, I would have said, like, how dare. Who do you think you are that you can't have this call with this person? I'm like, today, I'm like, I actually. I don't have it in me to give you, so if it's not there, I can't provide that for you. And I do think, though, that a lot of that has changed because of motherhood, because I usually have to go home with the full cup so I can be a good mom. So I am very careful. When I can't take that call that meeting, I'm gonna say no. And I didn't value that before. I was very terrified of it. Actually thought it was really an ego thing, like you think you're better than. You can't stop on the street and talk to that person. And now I'm like, oh, I kind of understand why people do say no, you don't have it in you and you gotta respect that. And it's not coming from I don't want to or a place of I don't like you. It's like, I don't got it.
- [104:58]
A
I don't got it. It's me every day.
- [105:03]
B
I don't got it. Got it.
- [105:05]
A
Amazing. Thank you, my darling.
- [105:07]
B
Thank you.
- [105:08]
A
Loved you today. Literally. Thank.
- [105:14]
B
You.
- [105:17]
A
If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click Follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Audacy. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Corrine Gilliatt Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Audacy are Maddy Sprung Kaiser, Leah Rees Dennis, Asha Salouja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado and Arnie Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and wme. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson, Rose, Tim Meecol, Sean Cherry and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me@aspirewithm. Agreed. Greed is spelled G R E D E. That's Aspire A S P I R E with Emma Greed. Or you can submit a question to me on my website. Website emagreed me. Look, we get it. You can hardly go anywhere or do anything these days without hearing AI this or AI that. And if you're like most people when it comes to AI, you're impressed but have a few concerns. But what if AI was used not as a tool to replace people, but as a way to help understand people better? AI from SurveyMonkey is designed to do just that. From crafting the perfect survey, which is harder than you might think, to analysis that digs deep, finds patterns and surfaces trends quickly. SurveyMonkey's powerful suite of AI capabilities makes it faster and easier than ever before to get insight from real people, helping you make confident decisions for your business. Try it today@surveymonkey.com Emma.