Federal Power, Voter Data, and the ICE State (with Jon Favreau)

Summary

---

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams – Ep. 70: Federal Power, Voter Data, and the ICE State (with Jon Favreau)

Date: February 3, 2026
Host: Stacey Abrams
Guest: Jon Favreau (Pod Save America, Offline)

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Stacey Abrams and Jon Favreau (of Pod Save America and Offline) tackle the intensifying threat of authoritarianism in the U.S., focusing on recent ICE raids, the politicization of voter data, and the rapid expansion of federal executive power. Against the backdrop of controversial ICE activity—including aggressive church raids and looming threats to immigrant communities—the hosts examine connections between immigration policy, voter suppression, and the erosion of democracy. Throughout, they challenge Democratic strategies, call out government hypocrisy, and discuss how to re-frame public conversations around citizenship, activism, and American values.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE Raids on Churches & Criminalizing Protest

• Stacey contextualizes current ICE actions by referencing the 1833 Alabama slave code, which forbade enslaved people from gathering, to highlight how places of worship have historically (and still are) targeted to stifle dissent.
• Multiple protesters, including journalists, were arrested for protesting ICE at a church where the pastor helms a regional ICE field office. Abrams notes the hypocrisy: “ICE has repeatedly raided churches…seized, kidnapped, disrupted, and they have broken not just the law but the spirit of America.” (05:06)
• “We should be, in the tradition of American citizenship, offended by anyone who would say that protest in the church is wrong.” (06:01)

2. Immigration as a Test of National Values

• Abrams reframes immigration as a “values test, a faith test, a truth-telling test,” rather than a standalone political issue.
• Temporary Protected Status is about to end for thousands of Haitian immigrants, and ICE plans mass arrests. This exemplifies how the regime scapegoats the vulnerable:
  • “Step seven [in authoritarianism] is where we lose America’s soul.” (10:51)
• Jon Favreau agrees, noting the administration’s scapegoating as central to consolidating power.

3. Federal Raids on Election Centers & Voter Data Seizure

• Abrams details the FBI’s raid on Fulton County’s election center, which resulted in federal authorities seizing voter lists to which, she argues, they are not entitled.
• Favreau and Abrams agree this is likely a deliberate national strategy to intimidate immigrants and undermine democratic trust:
  • “What could they use all this information for...? Purge voter rolls…create this climate of confusion and fear.” (15:40)
• This pattern appears nationwide, exemplified by authorities pressuring states like Minnesota to turn over SNAP (food assistance) beneficiaries and voter rolls in exchange for easing ICE actions.

4. The Manipulation of Citizenship & the SAVE Act

• The SAVE Act, attached to DHS funding, introduces harsh voter ID requirements and would disproportionately disenfranchise women (due to name changes) and immigrants.
• Favreau underscores the underlying ideology:
  • “They believe the government should decide who is a citizen…and when you listen to [figures like] J.D. Vance and Stephen Miller…they will talk pretty openly about how they’re not huge fans of the Declaration of Independence and the idea that all of us are created equal.” (23:12)
• Abrams notes: “The value of your citizenship just keeps dropping in this country.” (22:30)

5. Authoritarian Playbook: Systemic Rigging over Dramatic Martial Law

• Discussion of the 10 steps to authoritarianism: the final step isn't always open dictatorship, but rigging elections so votes no longer matter.
• Favreau: “Do they have to declare martial law? If you just rig the system completely and dismantle access…” (25:49)
• Worry extends to post-election scenarios in 2026 and 2028, with concerns about purges, intimidation at polls, and weaponization of federal agencies like ICE.

6. Broader Harm & Collateral Damage of Voter Suppression

• Abrams shares a personal story: Habersham County, GA (mostly white, rural) had to repeat elections due to disenfranchisement policies meant to target minorities, illustrating systemic fallout.
  • “When you break the system for some, you invariably break it for people you didn't intend to harm.” (28:26)
• Favreau stresses elites’ indifference to the “collateral damage” their policies create:
  • “These people don’t care about anyone but themselves.” (29:10)

7. Partial Government Shutdown & Limits on ICE Reform

• Democratically-led attempts to condition DHS funding on ICE accountability are running up against legal and political ceilings:
  • Favreau: “To completely defund ICE through this is impossible… ICE now has more funding…than most militaries…” (31:27)
  • Only relatively modest reforms (body cams, limits on roving patrols, use-of-force rules) are on the table.

8. Democratic Messaging & Strategy—Missed Opportunities & Reluctance

• Both hosts lament Democrats’ hesitancy, performative pragmatism, and failure to “hold their nerve.”
  • Abrams: “They do behavioral psychology and we do cognitive psychology.” (46:47)
  • Democrats often retreat from confrontation, fear complex conversations, and recondition language in response to rightwing bullying, rather than leading with moral clarity.

9. Calls to Action for Candidates and Organizers

• Favreau: “There’s a million ways to fight…showing you’re fighting for people is better than just fighting the administration.” (54:38)
• Highlighting personal stories, congressional town halls, and shifting from mere reactive messaging to offering a vision for humane immigration policy and real citizenship.

10. Public Opinion, Polls, and Erosion of Trust

• Current polling reveals record-low confidence in Trump, especially on the economy and immigration—but the hosts caution that outrage is often temporary.
• Favreau: “If you’re upset at the cost of living and then see the president getting his new Qatari plane…now you’re really pissed off. At the same time, there’s also roving bands of paramilitary squads in your streets. It’s not great for him.” (60:18–63:20)

11. Attacks on Journalists & The Truth

• Arrests of journalists like Don Lemon and Karen Attia are part of a broader strategy to criminalize dissent, erode the truth, and normalize authoritarian tactics:
  • Favreau: “That could be us…just because you may not be a journalist…it could be you. Just because you may not be in Donald Trump’s sights today…doesn’t mean you’re not vulnerable…” (65:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[ICE] have broken not just the law but the spirit of America.” — Stacey Abrams (05:08)
• “Step seven [in authoritarianism] is where we lose America’s soul.” — Stacey Abrams (10:51)
• “What could they use all this information for...? Purge voter rolls…create this climate of confusion and fear.” — Jon Favreau (15:40)
• “[The administration] believe that the government should decide who is a citizen in this country and who is not and who is worthy…When you listen to Miller and Vance…they will talk openly about how they’re not huge fans of the Declaration of Independence.” — Jon Favreau (23:12)
• “When you break the system for some, you invariably break it for people you didn’t intend to harm.” — Stacey Abrams (28:26)
• “These people don’t care about anyone but themselves…if you get hurt as a result of them breaking all these systems, they don’t care.” — Jon Favreau (29:10)
• “They do behavioral psychology and we do cognitive psychology…we are squandering this moment.” — Stacey Abrams (46:47)
• “There’s a million different ways to fight…I always think Democratic leaders are better off when they show they are fighting on behalf of people…” — Jon Favreau (54:38)
• “That could be us. It could be you.” — Jon Favreau, on attacks on press freedom (65:52)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:08-07:03 — 1833 Alabama Slave Code, ICE raids, and faith as shield
• 09:24-10:51 — ICE’s use of voter data, threats to Haitian immigrants, step 7 of authoritarianism
• 11:26-16:48 — With Jon Favreau: Fulton County raid, motives for voter data seizures
• 16:48-23:12 — The SAVE Act, voter IDs, citizenship, “great replacement” theory
• 25:49-28:26 — Authoritarian tactics, threats to elections, collateral damage in voting rights
• 31:21-33:17 — Limits on ICE reform, shutdown scenario, executive powers
• 37:23-41:43 — Potential for ICE accountability reform, Congressional strategy
• 45:29-50:00 — Messaging, behavioral v. cognitive psychology, rightwing manipulation of public opinion
• 53:32-58:01 — What Democratic candidates should do differently, centering immigrants’ stories
• 59:05-63:20 — Polling, public opinion, economy and immigration, signs of durable outrage
• 63:20-66:56 — Dangers of attacks on press, criminalizing dissent, authoritarian normalization

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Be Relentless & Honest: Demand the truth be told about abuses, even when uncomfortable or not politically “safe.”
• Center People, Not Just Politicians: Highlight the stories of targeted immigrants, voters, journalists, and underscore the American promise of fairness and justice.
• Engage in Deep Conversations: Resist the urge to dumb down complex issues—have real, nuanced debates on policy.
• Defend Rights for All: Protest and speak up for the persecuted, knowing that attacks on the vulnerable today will become normalized for others tomorrow.
• Support Immigrant & Voting Rights Groups: Donate, volunteer, and work with organizations like the Immigrant Rapid Response Fund, League of Women Voters, Fair Fight, and Common Cause.

---

Conclusion

This episode is a clarion call: the intersection of ICE overreach, attacks on voter data, and new limits on citizenship are not just isolated incidents but integral components of a broader authoritarian project. Abrams and Favreau urge listeners and leaders to move beyond performative gestures, embrace moral clarity, and fiercely defend the democratic ideals—before they are irreparably eroded.

---

Transcript

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Quince. Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. Designed for layering and mixing, each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last with versatile silhouettes and thoughtful details. They're the kind of styles you wear again and again. They've got the wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last. Think 100% organic cotton sweaters Premium denim made with stretch for all day comfort luxe cotton cashmere blends perfect for the changing seasons. Everything you need for a wardrobe that actually lasts. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you're not paying for brand markup, just high quality clothing. Quince uses the highest quality materials like 100% European linen and and organic cotton. Everything is built to hold up season after season. The stitching, the fit, the fabrics. These are pieces you'll reach for over and over. And I love their everyday steel section on their website where you can add touches of luxury you didn't know you needed when retail therapy is just what the doctor ordered. So refresh your wardrobe and spruce up your day with quince. Go to quince.com stay Stacy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com Stacy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Stacy the number one resolution for.

[Ad Voice]

People last year was to save more money, but nearly half gave up by February. Don't let that be you. Download Rocket Money to reach your financial goals this year. Track your spending, cut waste and automate savings in one simple app. Rocket Money shows you all your expenses and categorizes them so you know exactly where your money's going and where you're overspending. From there, the app cuts waste by canceling your unused subscriptions and lowering your bills. No customer service needed. With that money freed up, the app will automatically set some cash aside for your goals. Whether it's an emergency fund, paying off debt or saving for vacation, Rocket Money's got you covered. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings, and on average, users can save up to $740 a year. When using all of the app's premium features make saving money a priority this year. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.

[Stacey Abrams]

Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm Your host, Stacey Abrams. I was in Los Angeles yesterday for the Los Angeles First African Methodist Episcopal Church's Founders Day. I was at the event to talk about the Ten Steps campaign.

[Ad Voice]

And.

[Stacey Abrams]

And during our time there, I was.

Reminded by one of the speakers of the 1833 Alabama slave code. You see, this was a slave code.

That made it illegal for more than.

Five enslaved persons to gather, particularly in worship spaces.

Why?

Because they feared it would start a rebellion. Well, on Friday, Don Lemon and Georgia.

Fort Trehearn, Jean Cruz, Jamil Lidell Lundy.

These folks were arrested again for protesting in a church where its pastor helms.

A regional ICE field office.

They joined Nekima, Levy, Armstrong, Chantille, Louisa Allen, and William Kelly, who were already.

Under arrest for the same protest.

Now, while much of the coverage in.

The commentary, including my own, has focused on their innocence, as journalists, I think.

That'S the wrong conversation, because this isn't.

About why they were there. It's the fact that they were there and they are being held accountable for.

Doing what citizens do.

I'm compelled to talk about this because.

The laws that make disruption and places of worship unlawful cut into the Constitution that has told us that we are.

American citizens, permitted to lift our voices wherever we will. But I'm also compelled to point out the hypocrisy of their arrest.

ICE has repeatedly raided churches. They have interfered with the conduct of worship services in violation of the Face act, which is the principal pretext they're.

Using for these arrests.

Whether you're in North Carolina or in California or in Oregon, ICE has come into places of worship, into sanctuaries. And in those sanctuaries, they have seized, they have kidnapped, they have disrupted, and.

They have broken not just the law.

But the spirit of America.

I'm the daughter, as I've mentioned before, of two Methodist ministers.

And I was raised to believe that my faith is not a sword to strike people down. It is a shield to protect. And I also believe that places of worship are not sanctuaries from the truth. They are the place where you go to find the truth. They are the places where you go to atone for the falsehoods that you have espoused. They are places where you go to learn and grow and become better. And what America is doing on immigration is in violation of what we learn.

In those spaces, irrespective of your faith.

Tradition, whether you have a faith tradition or not, we should be, in the tradition of American citizenship, offended by anyone.

Who would say that protest in the church is wrong.

I hearken Back to the 1833 Alabama slave code because the that code was.

Written because too many black men and.

Black women were finding themselves huddled in churches to talk about their humanity. They came into those churches to say.

That having their children sold from them.

Having their lives forfeited, having their history eradicated, that that was wrong. And the one place they felt safe coming together to have those conversations, to.

Congregate, were places of worship.

They believed that in those spaces, under the auspices and the eye of God, they could possibly imagine a future that they deserved.

And in that moment of grace, they believed that there might also be mercy.

Right now, America is in search of.

Grace, and the people who are here are in need of mercy.

And yet, instead of us being told that America should hold to its traditions.

It should believe in its truths, we are instead watching immigration being wielded against our people. Alex Preddy and Renee Good and Keith.

Porter in 2026 have proven that status is not safety.

And the ICE agents who break into churches, even those who helm churches, have proven that sanctuaries are no longer sanctuary.

We have to think about immigration not as a standalone issue, but as a values test, as a faith test, as.

A truth telling test. We are watching immigration be used against everyone in this country because there is.

A belief that our faith in our perfection and our exceptionalism is going to be sufficient to defend us from the onslaught. Last week, in addition to what we.

Have seen play out in Minneapolis, quietly.

In Georgia, in my home state, the FBI conducted a search of a Fulton county election center.

What does that have to do with immigration? What does that have to do with anything?

This is something we should care about.

Because if America has a faith, it.

Is the faith of democracy. If we have a collective practice, it is at the altar of the notion that Americans come together and that we are allowed to choose our leaders and set our course, and that we have the right to be heard. We are watching now as this nation, under a Republican authoritarian regime, strips us of our faith and defies our tradition, tells us that the belief in democracy is no longer sufficient to protect us. These ICE raids are one version of it. But the raid on an election center should also send chills down our spine, especially if they are followed by arrest of election workers who simply did their job. Fulton county is the largest county in.

The state of Georgia. It's also one of the most diverse.

And with the seizure of those election records, they also got a list of voters, a list to which the federal government is not entitled, a list that they've been asking for state after state after state. In fact, in Minneapolis, Pam Bondi said to Tim Walls by letter, if you will give us your lists, we might stop killing your people and the altar of democracy. This administration, this regime, is willing to sacrifice our faith.

And on February 3, Temporary Protected Status.

Is going to end for thousands of Haitian immigrants. ICE is already prepared in Springfield, Ohio.

To seize as many as they can.

And if we remember our recent history, the lies told about Haitians in Springfield, Ohio, helped spur rumor and invective against another set of people who simply came to the United States because they had faith that here they could find asylum. Here they could find respite, here they could find peace. And that faith is about to be tested. Step seven, the 10 steps to authoritarianism and autocracy is that you scapegoat the vulnerable. You treat the disadvantaged and the marginalized like chattel. You tell them they are insufficient for the humanity they carry.

Step seven is where we lose America's soul. It is where we lose the plot and we lose the tradition and we lose ourselves.

And so in this moment, our response must not be to get distracted by, but to recognize that evil can serve multiple purposes. It can come in many guises. And our faith must be that democracy.

Is how we are redeemed. Joining me this week on Assembly Required.

Is the host of Crooked's very own Pod, Save America, and the host of.

Offline, the Incredible, Jon Favreau.

Jon Favreau, welcome to Assembly Required. So delighted to have you.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

So I want to start because our friendship slash attempt to save America started with voting. And Georgia is the gift that never, ever, ever stops disappointing or giving. And so let's talk about what happened in my home state of Georgia last week when federal authorities raided Fulton county and seized hundreds of boxes of election related materials from 2020 cycle, including but not limited to the actual tabulation tapes and more nefariously, all of the voters who were registered to vote in Fulton county in 2020. I think what's important to note is that this is not a one off incident. It's part of this much broader effort that we know this administration and this regime, this broader Republican regime has been pursuing on voting. They are doing their best to take advantage of their ability to extort or otherwise gather information to which they are not entitled. Go.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I had a lot of questions about this one also. So they've taken these ballots. We have no idea what the chain of custody for these ballots are now because we can't trust what the federal government tells us anymore. I Also had a question of, like, how did they get a warrant to do this? Because obviously a judge had to sign off on this. You know, their explanation, of course, is this is all about 2020 and Donald Trump relitigating 2020 and trying to prove somehow, despite the fact that we've had recounts, hand recounts, we've had I don't know how many lawsuits related to Fulton county, all of it has shown that everything was fine, everything was on the up and up, but Donald Trump is intent on relitigating this anyway. So that's the story that they're telling. But I guess the question is, what could they use all this information for in these ballots from 2024 in terms of, you know, nefarious objectives in 2026, 2028 and beyond?

[Stacey Abrams]

I mean, part of it for me, and it goes to your point about what happened in 2020, this has been one of the most litigated post Florida 2000 elections ever. And one of the reasons these ballots were available, this information was available, was that part of one of the many lawsuits required that the county hold this information. And the magistrate judge who signed off on the warrant is not from Georgia. And so part of St. Louis or Missouri. St. Louis, yeah. Which, you know, is not a suburb. We have a lot of suburbs in Atlanta, but it is not one.

[Jon Favreau]

Not even an excerpt there. No.

[Stacey Abrams]

But I think your point is well taken, which is that this has been litigated multiple times. And part of it for me is the fact that 2020 was probably the most accessible election in American history. It's one of the reasons we saw the level of turnout and the diversity of turnout, and Fulton county is emblematic of that. It's got a large African American population, a large AAPI population, a large Hispanic population, a large immigrant population with a number of naturalized citizens who voted in that election and have actually become super voters over the last few years. And so part of it, for me, the worry is that this is a back doorway to do two of their favorite things, scare immigrants and try to thwart elections. When you think about what you're seeing, not just here in what they did in Georgia, but what they're doing in Minnesota, the other states that they've sued, but in particular, saying to Governor Waltz, if you will just turn over your SNAP benefit beneficiaries and your voting rolls will pull back on ice, do you think that they are using this as a pretext? And to what end?

[Jon Favreau]

I think it's definitely a pretext to one end. I'm not sure yet. I think there's a range of possibilities. I think one possibility is they are looking for some evidence or some example somewhere of a non citizen voting, a non citizen having registered to vote. And then they can publicize that example to say, see, the, the Democrats are registering illegals and this is their plan all along. And so we're going to crack down and purge voter rolls or lean on states, I guess, to purge voter rolls of people who, I guess, I mean, there's not non citizens on the voter rolls. So just purge a whole bunch of people who seem like they could be non citizens. Maybe that's their plan. But it's a combination of. One option is for them to purge, the other option is for them to just create this climate of confusion and fear, which I think if they're trying to decide in the White House what to do, they're like, well, if that's all we get out of it, that's still pretty good for us.

[Stacey Abrams]

Part of it for me is the fact that I combine this with what's happening in Washington, D.C. this week with the House having to vote on the continuing resolution on DHS funding and the push now to attach the SAVE act to that funding. Can you talk a bit about why the SAVE act is problematic? And again, this idea of why they are being so focused on immigration as a point of entry to this larger conversation about voting.

[Jon Favreau]

And so the SAVE act is, and correct me if I'm wrong here, the SAVE act is a very stringent voter ID requirement that seems like on its face, would not pass constitutional muster, which.

[Stacey Abrams]

Assuming we still have a constitution that we try to muster.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. They have real. I mean, I remember years ago we were all talking about great replacement theory as like a far right out there sort of conspiracy theory that was on sort of the fringes of the Republican Party. It is now like the position of the government. And so they believe that Democrats are importing immigrants to basically take power. A lot of problems with this theory.

[Stacey Abrams]

Where do we begin?

[Jon Favreau]

I was gonna say, it has always struck me as particularly stupid, more than anything else, since Trump just won in 2024 with a more diverse coalition than he had had in 2020 and 2016. Obviously Democrats still have a much more diverse coalition of voters. But, you know, he's had a bunch of. And the other stupid thing is, again, people who come to this country, even if they ultimately become citizens, certainly that process is not going to be for many, many years that they'll be a voter on the roll. So, you know, for all the, like Biden let in millions of people. The millions of people that came here during the Biden presidency, none of them are citizens so none of them can vote. So it's a very bad theory. If the Democrats strategy is to import a bunch of immigrants so they can vote for Democrats, they have really shit the bed.

[Stacey Abrams]

It's a long game.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a long. It's a really long game.

[Stacey Abrams]

We are all set.

[Jon Favreau]

It's wild.

[Stacey Abrams]

When we come back, More from my conversation with Jon Favreau. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. February is full of flowers, candy, stuffed animals and a lot of focus on relationships and dating. No matter where you are in your love life married, single, dating, or just focusing on yourself, the truth is most people are still figuring out their romantic situation. Navigating those waters can be tricky, and even a good romance novel isn't a substitute for real advice. As a romance novelist, I know of what I speak Whether for individuals or couples, therapy, with BetterHelp is an opportunity to identify what's weighing your relationship down and ways to brighten them up again. The first step is finding a therapist who is the right fit. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, Having served over 5 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Abrams that's betterhelp.com Abrams assembly required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by bilt. Nobody likes paying rent, but but BILT makes it feel a little bit better. BILT is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you monthly with points and exclusive benefits in your neighborhood. Let me explain. With bilt, every rent payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases and so much more. And here's something really exciting. Now BILT members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. That means you can get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits from more than 45,000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, and other neighborhood partners. Personally, I'd redeem my points using Bilt's travel portal and out at select restaurants. Join the loyalty program for renters and [e-mail] assembly that's J O I N B B I L T.com assembly and make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Part of it for me is the SAVE act hits two of their favorite.

Things, so you just pointed out. It hits the immigration death knell that they're trying to sound, but it also speaks to women voting, which if you look at the great replacement theory, they also have this very protonatalist idea that if women were just back in, you know, the kitchen the way they should be, the world would be a better place for them.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Stacey Abrams]

And part of what is in the SAVE act is language that would essentially disenfranchise millions of women because they would have to be able to produce paperwork that shows that they've. That they have the same name they had when they were first, you know, brought into this world. And more importantly, it ratchets up the point of entry where you have to start proving that you have the right to be here and the right to speak about being here. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about, especially from your perspective from 2008, like, what does it mean when the value of your citizenship just keeps dropping in this country? When we think about how we save democracy?

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I think When I hear J.D. vance speak, when I hear Stephen Miller speak, you do realize that citizenship is sort of the be all, end all of their whole project. We tend to think about it in terms of immigration. I think for this administration, it's time for people to start thinking about it in terms of, like, they believe that the government should decide who is a citizen in this country and who is not and who is worthy of. Of citizenship and who is not. And when you listen to Miller and Vance and a lot of the national conservatives, Senator Eric Schmidt of Missouri, is like this as well. They will talk pretty openly about how they're not huge fans of the Declaration of Independence and the idea that this is a country that's founded on an idea that all of us are created equal and that we all enjoy the privileges of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, Right? And so, and J.D. vance just says, like, I don't think that's how the country should be organized just around the principles the Declaration of Independence, because that means anyone could come here. And that also means that people who are here, who don't believe in the Declaration of Independence, whose ancestors fought maybe in the Confederate side of Civil War, then they don't have as much of a claim on being citizen as someone who just got here. And to that and to J.D. vance, that's just horrific. So. But if a government is the sole arbiter, if a regime is the sole arbiter of who gets to enjoy the benefits of citizenship and who doesn't, that puts every single person in the country at risk. No matter what you look like, where you come from, how many generations of ancestors have been here, because it's also based on what you believe about politics, which is where they're really going.

[Stacey Abrams]

Part of what I've been talking about on the show for the last year is the 10 steps to authoritarianism and autocracy. And step 10 is you end elections, you end democracy, which does not mean that we don't still go and vote. It just means that the vote doesn't matter because the decision's already made. And when you tie it back to what you've just said about what they think citizenship should speak to. I'd love for you to talk for a second about the worries that I keep hearing bubbling up about martial law being declared as the way to eliminate elections. How much credence you give that versus my counter argument, which is you don't have to declare martial law. If you just rig the system completely and dismantle access, where do you come down on it?

[Jon Favreau]

I think there's a couple concerns here. There is rigging the system and so that you reduce access to voting. There is intimidation around elections, which I worry about. Obviously, federal agents ice, they're not supposed to be near voting centers, but like, in this environment, who knows? Doesn't take much. Also, do they have to be right around the voting booth, or can they be close by, or are they just menacing people in the communities around election day so you could see all that kind of shenanigans? I think I worry most about what happens after the election, which is exactly what we all had to worry about in 2020 into 2021, which is, you know, we are a closely divided country still, at least in terms of election results. And all it takes is a couple House districts, a couple of Senate races in very purple states like Georgia to be, you know, contested. And if you have the federal government now willing to seize voting machines, have Mike Johnson cause all kinds of trouble in Congress before the new Congress is seated Then that's all you really need. And so I do worry about that. Back to what we were talking about earlier with just the stupidity of a lot of this is I think that they have not fully realized that they have a coalition now where a lot of, with a lot of low propensity voters. And so by making it more difficult for people to vote, they're also making it more difficult for their own people to vote. Rural people in rural areas are having a more difficult time. Again, their coalition, some of their, more like the Latinos who are voting for Trump, black Americans who are voting for Trump, like they're making it more difficult for some of their own voters as well.

[Stacey Abrams]

I pointed this out back in 2014, 2015, when I was doing a lot of voter registration work and talking about how they were breaking the system. They tack and go after the people they don't like. But there's a county in Georgia called Habersham County. It does not have a terribly diverse population. They had to run the same election three different times because the system of disenfranchisement that they used to target black and brown voters actually dismantle the controls that they had in place. And I actually had a Republican colleague who had to go through those elections three times who worked with me on just talking about voter suppression, because he had to point out I've had to do this over and over again, because.

When you break the system for some.

You invariably break it for people you didn't intend to harm. And I think part of the challenge in this moment is how do we talk to those who think that they're immune from harm so that they understand that they're collateral damage in the making?

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, I think a lot about this, and this is where the sort of insane corruption that's happening in the Trump administration comes into play. Because as you see them enriching themselves, enriching their friends, allies, giving pardons to people who've taken advantage of others, harmed others. I think an argument that is both effective and completely fair to make is these people don't care about anyone but themselves. They certainly don't care about you, and they don't care about people who disagree with them. But the people who agree with them, if you don't have money or power, they don't really care about you either. Maybe they'll say they don't want you to get hurt, but if you get hurt as a result of them breaking all these systems, they don't care. And they've proven that right. These are like, that's why they cut Medicaid for just mostly their voters at this point. All of the tariffs are hitting their voters hardest of all. And you know, Trump is raiding the treasury basically to pay himself. He's suing himself, basically suing the federal government and then, you know, taking the money himself. So like, I think that the message to folks who think that they might not be a target of this is like maybe you're not a target today. It's a big country and you know, there's 300 million something, 300 plus million people. But if we're in a system with people in charge who don't care about anyone but themselves, then you are much more liable to get hurt than in a system where you have the protection of the law.

[Stacey Abrams]

And I think they just signaled that with the last government shutdown, which lasted a protracted amount of time and did not result in actually resolving any of the harms they've created, we are now technically in a partial shutdown. And before we dive into the details, can you talk a little bit about what isn't achievable through the potential legislation that may follow? So just to lay the groundwork for folks, in order to compel accountability for ice, the Senate Dems essentially said we will not give you the votes you need. There was a test vote that failed last week and now we are in a partial government shutdown with a two week continuing resolution on dhs Department of Homeland Security. It's going back to the House this week. And if it does pass, that gives the government two weeks to sort of argue over how to hold ICE accountable.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Stacey Abrams]

Before we talk about what will happen, can you help us understand what's just impossible?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, what's impossible is to completely defund ICE through this. And that is because through the big beautiful bill last year, ICE now has more funding statutorily then you know, basically that their budget is the size of, is bigger than most militaries in the entire world, except for the United States and China, I believe like as big as the Israeli military. And that money is there for them regardless of what happens to the larger Department of Homeland Security funding. So now the reason it was good to block the Homeland Security funding in the first place is because that bill would have given them even more money.

[Stacey Abrams]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And so you know, it's good to halt that funding and to say, okay, well we're going to try to institute some sensible should already be in law reforms to ice. They're already there.

[Stacey Abrams]

You should not have a mass paramilitary roaming the streets of US things that.

[Jon Favreau]

Many of us would argue are already in the law and the Constitution, but nonetheless. So I think they're trying to get those reforms through. But yeah, it is in order to completely defund ice, abolish ice, whatever you want to do to permanently stop this. Like it doesn't, it's not going to happen. Unfortunately, until a Democrat is president at the very least, or a Democratic Congress that you could, you know, I think try to repeal, you'd need like a quite a healthy majority in Congress as well. But I think as long as Donald Trump's president, unfortunately the president, any president, has wide latitude on immigration policy and executive branch function, particularly with the Supreme Court and what we just saw with Doge earlier in the year, which gives the executive now quite a bit of authority to spend the money that they want to spend.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay, much more with Jon Favreau when we come back. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Oneskin. We've talked before about why Oneskin really stands out as a skincare company. It's not hype or just fancy packaging. It's real science. The founding team are longevity researchers who asked a deceptively simple if many visible signs of aging like wrinkles, fine lines and loss of elasticity are driven by so called zombie cells, what if you could actually reduce those cells to slow the aging process down instead of just covering it up? That research led to OS1.1 Skin's proprietary peptide. It's the first ingredient proven to switch off those damaged senescent cells, actually slowing skin aging directly at the source. This is serious science that fits easily into my existing routine and every time I use One Skin, I'm giving my skin a clear signal to repair damaged cells, support collagen and strengthen my skin barrier. With one Skin, I like that I don't need a time consuming routine just to take good care of my skin. Makeup is a regular part of my day, so being able to quickly clean and refresh my skin with OS1's nighttime regimen is exactly what I need. OS1 Eye, OS1 Lip SPF and the OS1 Lip Mask are especially important during these dry winter months when my under eyes and my lips need a little extra tlc. And this isn't just my experience. Oneskin's products are backed by extensive lab and clinical data, including four peer reviewed clinical studies to validate their efficacy and safety on all skin types. Plus, They've got over 10,000 five star reviews and have been recently featured by Bloomberg and as a leader in skin longevity. It really shows you don't need a complicated routine to achieve healthier younger looking skin. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code assembly at OneSkin Co assembly that's 15% off OneSkin Co with Code assembly and after you purchase they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you Assembly Required is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. A strong democracy doesn't happen by accident. It's built deliberately through laws that protect everyone's freedoms, not just those with power. One of those protections is the separation of church and state. The First Amendment ensures that government serves all people equally, regardless of faith, background or belief, and that no one is forced to live under someone else's theology. Today, that principle is under threat from movements that want to blur the lines between religion and government, narrowing who truly belongs in our democracy. The Freedom From Religion foundation works to defend that boundary in schools, courts and public institutions. So freedom of conscience remains a right, not a privilege. This is about fairness, it's about inclusion, and it's about building a democracy that works for everyone. Visit FFRF US newyear or text my first name S T A c e y to 511-511 and support the work of protecting our share shared freedoms. To learn more, go to FFRF US NewYear or text my first name Stacey to 511511 and help protect a country that belongs to all of us. Message and data rates may apply.

So let's talk about what reforms are possible. I know that Leader Schumer suggested there are three major reforms that are absolutely necessary, and it's ending the roving ICE patrols and tightening how they wield search warrants. It's establishing a universal code of conduct that governs federal law enforcement's use of force, and it's prohibiting these law enforcers, such as they call themselves, from using masks, and it's requiring them to use body cameras. Minority Leader Jeffries essentially said that these were the reforms that he thought were also necessary. My concern is that, and it's identical to yours, that while these are important, they are insufficient for the sort of wholesale change that we need. My secondary concern is that when they don't go far enough, when things continue to escalate, there is going to be an erosion of trust that anything can be done. Do you agree? And if so, what do we do about it? And if I'm wrong, please make me feel better.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I do agree and I here's what I worry about. I think Democrats in Congress, especially Democratic leadership, has Grown a bit afraid of Democratic voters, especially Democratic activists and organizers. And in some ways it's good that the, that they're feeling the pressure. Right. The way they respond, though, is either now they sort of like promise everything, or they feel like they can just say what they need to say to not get in trouble. And then when they don't get all of it, say, oh, we tried. And I do think from a communications perspective, it's better to be honest with people ahead of time about what they can do and what they can't do. And if people are gonna get mad at you, they're gonna get mad at you. But, like, at least you're telling the truth to folks. I do think you're right. Like, you know, I think they're gonna have trouble getting even those reforms passed, which is crazy, but that's the world that we live in. But I do think that then, you know, I think they're in a tough spot. Like, do they. I bet that if they don't get them, they will shut down DHS and then there'll be a shutdown over ice. Then I wonder, once the cause, then they'll say, okay, this is what the base wanted. This is what everyone wanted. We're shutting down dhs.

[Stacey Abrams]

And.

[Jon Favreau]

And then what's the next move? Because I do think the Trump administration at that point is like, all right, well, you're going to shut down dhs. ICE is going to continue to do what ICE does. Border Patrol is going to continue to do what Border Patrol does. Maybe we'll shut down TSA at the airports, and maybe we'll shut down fema. And so we'll cause a lot of pain to people and then we'll say it's the Democrats fault. And by the way, we're still going to publicize all of our ICE raids just to rub it in your faces. So that's what I worry about.

[Stacey Abrams]

So what's your advice for when that happens?

[Jon Favreau]

I think that the Democrats, when they shut down the government, if they shut down the government, because I mean, hopefully they can get some reforms. But if they can't and they shut down the government, they just have to be honest with people about what they can achieve. Look, if I was there, I might say, okay, shut down all that stuff and we will go out there every day and say the reason that they are shutting down TSA and that there's lines at the airports is because they really, really want to use your money to go terrorize communities. But you've got to stick with it and like, this is my problem. The first shutdown. I thought about this, too. It's like, if you do this and then you back down, then you're going to have that trust eroded. Now, I think, because they raised the salience of healthcare in that first shutdown, and then they backed down. Like, I think it was okay, because I think enough people realized Republicans were never going to sign an extension of the Affordable Care act subsidies, and people got to realize that. But I think they have, to be honest. Is that, like, I don't. I don't think the Trump. Trump administration was unlikely always to sign an extension of the ACA subsidies, though I kind of thought maybe they would just because the politics for them of not doing it is so bad. Turns out they don't really care about the politics on ice. This is the thing they care about the most. Like, really, really care about. They don't really care about ACA that much as we know, but they really care about being able to go terrorize communities with ice. I don't think they will ever back down from that.

[Stacey Abrams]

So Democrats have what I would charitably term a performative pragmatism that seems to suggest, yes, we are the adults in the room, we're doing the best we can, and yet we also know that, that people are dying. And I've been encouraged by the sort of moral clarity that Americans seem to be experiencing because of what we've seen. But I also know that we are highly reactive to public opinion and major news events, and that the same moral clarity that seemed to shine on us all after George Floyd's murder has dimmed dramatically. Do you think this shift is durable, given what you've just said, that Republicans are very comfortable denying health care, denying food. They were very comfortable saying, we will starve children and the elderly and the disabled during the shutdown in order to avoid giving any of you health care?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Is the shift that we're seeing from the public on ICE and its brutality, is it durable and does that matter?

[Jon Favreau]

I think it is durable if we make it durable. I think that we. I think the reason that it has become such a big deal and it has. And it has sort of shocked the conscience of the nation. Conscious of the nation is not. I mean, a big part of it is it's on video. Right. And so people have seen it. But I also think the opposition to ICE has not. Like, it didn't start with Democrats in Congress or Democratic leaders, because I certainly remember back in the fall, you know, I remember talking to Democratic officials about, on Positive America about Kilmar Abrego Garcia and Senator Van Hollen going to visit him. And there was a little bit of, this is a trap they're trying to set because they're strong on immigration. And look, I think that was a mistake born of, yes, people. Most people in the country do want a secure border. Yes, they were unhappy with how Joe Biden handled immigration. And yes, they do believe that some people should be eligible for deportation. That does not mean they are okay with just grabbing people off the street, kidnapping them, suspending due process, and sending them to torture chambers. I know it's crazy to think that people could think both things, but I think organizers, activists, people who are not involved in politics at all, who are just picking up their phones and filming and then sending these stories around, I think that is what has activated people. And so I think that that, look, it will only go away if, A, we stop talking about it, and B, the administration changes course. You know, I do. I do. I worried a little bit after Alex Preddy's murder that the Trump administration would just decide they have to be smarter about this and quieter about this. And I'm sure they may try to do that, but I don't think they'll be able to, because I think if you are going to go into cities and try to hit the number of arrests and deportations that Stephen Miller wants to hit, you're not gonna be able to do this quietly. And I think that the uproar will continue. And then I think the question is, like, what do Democratic leaders do with this? I mean, what would you do in Congress? What's your.

[Stacey Abrams]

No, I agree.

I think part of it is it is being honest about what is happening. It is being relentless about the conversation. And this actually leads into a thought I've been having. We have these very pithy discussions about very complicated issues. And some of that's driven to your point about what we think the politics will allow us to say. And some of it's, we underestimate the American people. We think that their tension span is just too short.

And we have this.

This rule aversion to complexity. And the gop, what they do with that is that they focus on behavioral psychology. They use language and legislation to recondition public opinion. We would not have been having a conversation about the great replacement theory 10 years ago, but they have reconditioned how we talk about it, because they attacked dei, because they attacked esg, because they attacked crt. And I'm using acronyms because they made.

Certain we never had the complex discussions.

About any of those things. So when the attacks came, they reconditioned the American populace to just use those as trigger words for this must be bad. And those of us who should have been in defense crouched, and we were afraid. I think about abortion rights, I think about voting rights. And Democrats, on the other hand, we seem to prefer this approach where we hear what a public opinion doesn't like, and then we recondition our language to appease those who've mocked us. It is the most pedestrian response to a bully I've ever seen that I don't like your name, and therefore I'm going to change my name so you won't mock me anymore because my name was the thing that was really offending you.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Most charitable way I can put it is that they do behavioral psychology and we do cognitive psychology.

Yeah.

But I wonder what it will take for us to hold our nerve and to actually use these moments to shape and meet the needs of the people. And so, to your point, what I would do right now is actually have conversations like, what should we be talking about on immigration?

Instead of simply responding to the urgency.

Of the moment and the brutality of the moment as a way to solve the immediate crisis, this becomes the reason for us to start having those more complex conversations to remind people that the most massive immigration reform done in this country was done under Ronald Reagan, that.

He let them in and he said.

This is a good thing for America. And before that, it was LBJ who said, there are people outside of Eastern Europe who should probably get to visit. And so I think now is the moment where Democrats, if we're smart, we are using town hall meetings, we are using their egregious and grotesque behavior to have the conversations we are too afraid to have. Instead of our sort of French philosophy, the people are running this way. I must find where they're going so.

I can lead them.

Like, that's unfortunately for me, I think, how we are squandering this moment.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Well, and I think part of the challenge is we don't like having. We don't like having the complex conversations either, because, again, there's that fear. And so on immigration on the Democratic side now, there's been this, like, swing back and forth depending on what Trump has done. Because remember, like, everyone's like, oh, this is Trump's best issue. And for the first time, this isn't the first time that he's been on his heels on immigration. Trump, child separation in 2018 is extremely unpopular now, in response to that, we had the 2020 primary, where then it was like, should we decriminalize border crossings? Right. Which forget about the legal and policy implications of that, which, again, are complicated to the untrained ear. You're like, oh, then it isn't that open border.

[Stacey Abrams]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And so then it became like, oh, the Democrats are for open border, and at the time abolish ice, which was different than abolish ICE now, just because people have now seen ICE in action over the last year. And so, again, we don't have that sort of more complicated, nuanced discussion about what is the immigration system we want to have in this country. And I think that. I agree with you. I think that is a mistake. But then some things are simple. Like, I love polling. I love public opinion. I dig in all the time. They're killing people on the streets. I was saying this to my wife the other day. She was like, well, what are the Democrats gonna do for the midterms? And I'm like, I don't know. It's like they killed two Americans in the streets and they're kidnapping people and they're putting children in detention centers. And also, if the reason that you voted for him is because you wanted things to be cheaper, also, things are still expensive and they're killing Americans in the streets. I don't think you need more polls. Yeah, I don't think we need more data than that.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay. Much more with Jon Favreau when we come back. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Factor. I love to cook, but with my schedule, I don't always have time to pull together a delicious and healthy meal. After a day of long meetings or when several days seem to attack all at once, not having to figure out dinner is a gift. Factor doesn't ask you to meal prep or follow recipes. It just removes the entire problem. In two minutes, real food is ready to go. Face it, you're not failing at healthy eating. You're failing at having three extra hours every night. But Factor's got you. Its meals are ready to go, made by chefs, designed by dietitians and, and delivered to your door. You heat it for two minutes, and then you eat. Factor has lean proteins, vibrant vegetables, whole food ingredients, and healthy fats. The stuff you'd make if you had the time. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, and you can find meals that work for your lifestyle. There are 100 rotating meals every week. You can choose options that are high protein, calorie, smart, Mediterranean, or support those with GLP1 related needs. They even have ready to eat salads. For those who promise to focus on weight training this year, the new MusclePro collection is catered to those focused on strength and recovery. You pick what fits your goals. Healthier eating, calorie management, more protein, Whatever you're trying to achieve Factor is always fresh, never frozen. Ready in two minutes, no prep, no cleanup, no mental load. It's not just motivation to eat better, it eliminates the reasons you don't with delicious options like smoky Gouda Macaroni with shredded beef and their Southwest style Chicken grain bowls. I feel like also getting two vegetables and fruits in every meal is the ultimate cheat code. Head to FactorMeals.com Assembly50OFF and use code ASSEMBLY50OFF to get 50% off your first factor box. Plus free breakfast for one year offer only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase Make Healthier eating Easy with Factor 5.

[Ad Voice]

Years ago I was paying $65 a month for my subscriptions. Today those Same subscriptions cost $111 and I don't even use half of them anymore. That's why now I use Rocket Money to manage my subscriptions for me. The app gives you a list of all of your subscriptions and reminds you of upcoming payments so you're not hit with any surprise charges. On top of that, it also sends you alerts when subscription prices go up, so you always know the price you're paying. If you decide you no longer want a subscription, you can cancel it right from the app. No customer service needed. And the best part is Rocket Money even reaches out and tries to get you refunded some of the money you lost. On average, people that cancel their subscriptions with rocket money save $378 a year. And overall Rocket Money has saved its members $880 million in canceled subscriptions. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.

[Stacey Abrams]

How do.

We have the conversations if you were telling you and I get invited up to Capitol Hill and they decide they're gonna do it whatever we tell them? What's the conversation we're having with candidates who are spreading out across this country over the next nine months?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

What's our call to action to them? And in part I think about Lamonica McIver. I had this conversation with Aaron Ryan last week week and she was making the argument that more Democrats should be standing up to the administration even if it means getting arrested and facing prison, that we should be standing up like Alex Preddy, who did not expect, I cannot imagine he thought the consequence of kindness would be his murder. And yet I think we, we are in this moment where being elected to office has to be more than simply casting a vote. What's your call to action to those who are out there campaigning, asking for this job again? What else should they be doing with that time?

[Jon Favreau]

I think that, so there's this people urge Democrats to fight harder. And I think that just saying fight harder sort of leaves it open. There's a million different ways to fight. I think showing that you are fighting simply the administration and Donald Trump to me is understandable but not sufficient. And I always think that Democratic leaders are better off when they show that they are fighting on behalf of people and highlighting the stories of people who have only come to this country to try to work hard, make a living for themselves and their families, and believe deeply in the actual principles of this country and not the ones that J.D. vance would like to erase. And I think about Joaquin Castro traveling to the detention center in Houston where Liam, the five year old boy, Liam Ramos was held and bringing him home. And like, that's wonderful, right? And he got to tell that story. And it's not just about Liam. It's about so many children now. And now you're starting to see the reporting about other children who have been detained and also just the conditions in these detention centers. Right. Which is sort of that those stories have taken a backseat just to like sort of the ICE roving raids because we're seeing that on our TVs. So I think that sort of highlighting the humanity and the human costs to this, to these policies are really important for Democratic leaders. And I think Democratic, like you said, like holding town halls and like being very honest about what kind of immigration policy you think we should have in this country and not being shy about saying like, so look, I mean, next Democratic president gets into office and say, we have a Democratic president, Democratic Congress, okay, you want to do comprehensive immigration reform. So now we've been talking about comprehensive immigration reform for decades. What is the cutoff for recent arrivals? Who is deportable in this country? Is it only people with criminal records? And if it's only people with serious criminal records, then what do you do if there's an influx of asylum seekers like there was during the Biden administration and millions of people come in and then they don't have a court hearing until two years from now because we don't have enough immigration courts, so you need more immigration courts, like these sort of seemingly small policy details. They're actually very important to tell the story about what your values are around immigration. And I mean, I think about this with, you know, again, I was Obama administration, and so I remember that Obama would always say, like, we're a nation of immigrants. We're also a nation of laws, and we want people who are here to be able to have a pathway to citizenship. But, you know, if you came here illegally, then you should. You know, you're gonna have to pay a fine, you're gonna have to go through the process, because we recognize that there are people who've done everything, you know, have gone through trying to become a citizen through the legal immigration route, and they're going to be saying, well, what about these people who just crossed over the border illegally? If I tried to do this legally, and there's this unfairness there. So you try to. You speak about it, I think, in terms of values and fairness and an immigration system, but I still think you cover all of it and you talk about all of it, and you have to have a story and a vision that's not just like talking points about Trump. Stuff is bad, and we're going to give people a path to citizenship, and that's it, because people are going to have more questions than that.

[Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

Is there anyone you think is doing a good job with that right now?

[Jon Favreau]

Not really, no. I actually, I mean, I did hear. I heard a speech that James Talarico gave, I think, over the weekend. He was. It's not really about the details of immigration policy, but it was about. He was trying to. He was saying, you know, protest is American and immigration is American, and just trying to make sure that the American story and the definition of American, the definition of American values, includes everything we've seen from people who are protesting, people who are helping their neighbors, people who are coming here who've been working and living in the shadows for the last several decades. We have to not just define that as, it is legal and it is right and it is bad to punish that, but it's actually quintessentially American and part of our history and part of what this country was founded on, at least the promise that the country was founded on, even if we've not lived up to that promise.

[Stacey Abrams]

The theory makes a lot of sense. Okay, so I. I know you appropriately couched your earlier comment, but let's talk about polling for a second.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, sure.

[Stacey Abrams]

And public opinion.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

So, you know, last month, we saw a number of people, polls that were very critical of Trump and his administration and their handling of, well, say everything. In particular, we know that a majority of respondents considered this first year of his second term to be a failure, and they think he's gone too far in using presidential powers. And one of the conversations we have about the 10 steps to authoritarianism is, number two, the expansion of executive powers. And yet he has overreached before. We have seen outrage before. Is there anything different that you see in the polling data that signals that this behavior, not only by Trump, by Republicans, step three, is that you essentially co opt the Congress and the courts to support what you do. Did you see anything in these polls that tell us that we're in a different space than we've been before, when overreaches have happened?

[Jon Favreau]

Possibly. I think that Trump has never faced a situation where such a large percentage of the country has lost faith in his handling of the economy. So that is certainly new. And the way polls are, people are more likely to respond, especially in this information and media environment. They're more likely to respond negatively or positively to policies or actions that tangibly affect their lives. Right. And so if this guy campaigned on, you know, trying to make things cheaper and things aren't cheaper, in fact, a lot of stuff's more expensive and you still can't buy a house and groceries are still expensive, then you're not going to be too happy. I think in terms of his immigration agenda and the reason his strongest issue has now turned into, I mean, in many polls, he's as weak on immigration as he is on the economy, at least on the deportation side and ice, I think that is substantively more extreme than he's ever been. And I think that more people, again, are seeing that in their communities and their neighborhoods than they were in the first term or at any other time since Trump has been president. I also think because he cares so much less what people think, or at least is in such a tighter bubble than he's ever been because he is now surrounded by. He's always been surrounded by, yes, men and women. But now it's a tight circle of people who just. It's just all flattery, all praise, all the time. And I think because of that, the flaunting of the corruption in the midst of all this other stuff, I think is angering people even more than usual. Because if you're. It's one thing people expect politicians to be corrupt, unfortunately, in both parties, and they'll say both parties are equally corrupt. But if Everything's going well in the economy. Then you're like, well, I expect that from politicians and it's not great, but my life seems fine. That's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. If you're upset at the cost of living and then you see the president getting his new Qatari plane and talking all about his ballroom constantly and talking about how he's gonna, you know, raise the Kennedy center and then also, you know, pardon fraudsters and all that kind of stuff, now you're really pissed off. At the same time, there's also roving bands of paramilitary squads in your streets. It's a. It's not great for him. It's not great for him. That's my expert poll polling analysis. So I do think it's. I do think it's worse than before. I even think. I mean, we're seeing sort of. We've seen this before with him around January 6th. And I think January 6th was like a shocking event to the country that I think sort of unfortunately wore off over time. And, you know, all of our attention spans are, you know, getting shorter and shorter by the day. But I think this is different only in that the news could possibly move on to other stories and probably will. But if the, if the raids are still happening and the economy is still the way it is, it's hard to outrun that.

[Stacey Abrams]

The last question I have for you, I'm going to tie together a few ideas or issues. We know that based on polling from the New York Times that seemed very accurate given the zeitgeist, Trump is now threatening to sue the New York Times. And this is part of his way of attacking the press. And it follows his extortion, attacks on the press, his consolidation. You also have, at the same time, this attention that he and others are focusing on how to dismantle the truth. And my deep worry has been, whether it's Jimmy Kimmel or Karen Attia or Don Lemon and Georgia Fort, that the attack on the truth is not going to diminish even when he's gone. Because what we see in this country is that the first person to try it is not the last person to use it. Talk a bit about why we should all be terrified about the fact that they arrested journalists for covering protests in a sanctuary.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. I think that what happens in authoritarian regimes is when they go after journalists or they go after sort of civil society, they try to start with cases and incidents that are maybe arguable to some people. Right. And so it's the church and how could he go into the church? And he knew, Don Lemon knew that the protesters were going in there, and there were people, Right? So they. They kind of have this scenario that at least for their base, is gonna work really well. Right. Like, would their base have been as okay with this if, you know, he had the FBI march on set of the nightly news and just arrest the anchors? Probably not, right? I mean, unfortunately, some of them would get there, but not as much as this. Right? So you start here, and then if you start with Don Lemon, and if you don't get enough pushback, then it gets worse the next time, and then it gets worse the time after that, which is why I do. And I felt the same way about the sort of the political prosecutions. Right. That's how they, like, how many huge James Comey fans are there even in the Democratic Party. Right. Are a lot of liberals standing up for John Bolton.

[Stacey Abrams]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And so. And you hear this right? When some of these people get targeted, you have some people even who are defending the person who got attacked being like, look, I don't agree with any of their policy, but. So you have to do the throat clearing first. You even see some people now be like, you know, Don Lemon can be a little much, but. Right. And I don't think that's how we should be thinking. We should be thinking they are. If someone is following the law, if someone is exercising the rights that are afforded to them as a citizen of this country in the Constitution, then if those rights are violated, we should be speaking out about it, period, Full stop. Because that could be us. It could be you. And just because you may not be a journalist, just because you may not be in Donald Trump's sights today, just because you may not have been one of the people who investigated him after. After he was president last time, doesn't mean that at some point you're not vulnerable to a government that could come after you, because it's a government not based on laws, but by the whims of Donald Trump.

[Stacey Abrams]

Jon Favreau, sage of POD Safe America.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Today on Assembly Required.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

As always, on Assembly Required, we're here.

To give you real, actionable tools to face today's biggest challenges.

First, be curious if you enjoyed my.

Conversation with Jon Favreau.

Listen to POD Save America and his show offline. Number two, we've got to solve problems. The fight to defend voting rights starts now. If you haven't already find out about signing up as a poll worker or volunteer, check out the League of women voters at www.lwv.org. go to fair fightairfight.com or check out.

Common [e-mail] and number three do good.

The people of Minnesota continue to live under siege, so donate to the Immigrant Rapid Response Fund, which provides food, supplies, housing and healthcare to immigrants in need. Rent Relief funds can help those who are unable to work right now but still need to pay their bills. Minneapolis Rapid Response needs donations to help legal observers access safety gear and ppe, so please check out the show notes for an article from New York Magazine's the Cut that includes links to these organizations and other ways to help Assembly Required continues to grow its audience, but.

We need your help. We reach more people when you tell.

Others about us, when you add us.

To your feed and share your favorite episode.

So make sure you actually subscribe on all of your favorite platforms, not just one, and then boost our visibility by rating the show and leaving a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify.

Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And please also check out my substack.

Assembly Notes, where we dive deep and.

Where I share more of my thoughts on how we understand and then fight back against this authoritarian regime. And thank you to the thousands of you who have signed up for the 10 Steps campaign at 10stepscampaign.org there. We offer information in English and Spanish to help you recognize what's happening, activate around solutions and build a better America. Okay, well that wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.

Do good out there and I'll meet.

You here next week. Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka.

Mantha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and.

This me, Stacey Abrams.

[Ad Voice]

This is the story of the One as the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, she knows the only thing more important than having the right safety gear is having it there when you need it. That's why she partners with Granger for auto reordering, so her team members can count on her to have cut resistant gloves on hand and each shift can run safely and efficiently. Call 1-800-granger clickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.