Defying the Courts: Trump's Legal Battles and Our Fight for Justice

Summary

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams: Episode Summary Episode Title: Defying the Courts: Trump's Legal Battles and Our Fight for Justice
Release Date: March 27, 2025

---

Introduction: Confronting Modern Tyranny

In this compelling episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams, host Stacey Abrams delves into the alarming rise of tyranny within the United States, particularly focusing on former President Donald Trump's legal maneuvers and their implications for American democracy. Abrams sets the stage by emphasizing the enduring strength of the U.S. as the world's oldest continuous democracy, contrasting it with the current challenges posed by concentrated power and systemic abuse.

Stacey Abrams (00:00): "The most apt description of what has happened over the past few weeks is tyranny, the unrestrained exercise of power or authority."

Understanding Tyranny and Its Impact on Governance

Abrams articulates how recent actions by the Trump administration signify a departure from democratic norms, highlighting the erosion of checks and balances among the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. She underscores the presidency's overreach, where Trump has attempted to consolidate power, thereby weakening Congress's ability to oversee and legislate effectively.

Stacey Abrams (04:30): "Donald's moves have sparked more than 100 federal lawsuits, and judges have issued a series of nationwide injunctions to block his policies..."

The Judicial Branch: America's Last Line of Defense

The episode underscores the critical role of the judicial system as the final check against executive overreach. Abrams discusses how Trump's administration has repeatedly tested the limits of the courts, using tactics that mirror those of historical autocrats. A notable example is the invocation of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 to deport Venezuelan immigrants without due process, an action that has been met with strong judicial resistance.

Stacey Abrams (07:15): "The Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, John Roberts, issued a rare statement rebuking the idea of removing a judge from his post because of a disagreement about an unfavorable ruling."

Interview with Sky Perryman: Defending Democracy Forward

Standing Against Intimidation and Upholding the Rule of Law

Stacey Abrams speaks with Sky Perryman, President and CEO of Democracy Forward, about the organization's relentless efforts to combat the Trump administration's legal strategies aimed at undermining democratic institutions. Perryman highlights the administration's attempts to intimidate lawyers, law firms, and judges, which Democracy Forward counters by steadfastly advocating for the rule of law and protecting individual rights.

Sky Perryman (10:03): "This is a president and an administration that has no interest in working within our legal process... This is a time for courage."

Strategizing Legal Battles and Community Impact

Perryman elaborates on the strategic selection of cases Democracy Forward pursues, emphasizing their focus on protecting essential services, privacy, and public education. One significant victory mentioned is the successful court challenge against the administration's order to access personal data at the Social Security Administration, preventing unauthorized exploitation by private entities like Elon Musk and Doge.

Sky Perryman (17:01): "These things have a real impact on people's lives... it shows people, I think, and it demonstrates the tools that we all have as Americans."

Navigating Legal Setbacks and Building a Stronger Future

Discussing the inevitability of occasional legal setbacks, Perryman draws parallels to landmark cases like Brown v. Board of Education, underscoring the importance of persistent legal advocacy. She emphasizes that even when cases are lost at the district level, they lay the groundwork for future victories and systemic change.

Sky Perryman (19:36): "Sometimes these setbacks tell us, you know, what you really need to be going to do is you need to go talk to Congress or you need to go talk to the [Federal]..."

Breaking News: Alien Enemies Act Case

Abrams introduces a pressing legal battle involving the Trump administration's misuse of the Alien Enemies Act. Perryman explains how the administration has invoked this archaic law to deport Venezuelan immigrants without due process, a move that stands in stark contrast to the Act's historical applications during declared wars.

Sky Perryman (24:01): "The Alien Enemies Act is an act from the 1700s that has only been invoked three times in the nation's history... We challenged the invocation of that act, which we believe has been unlawfully enacted."

Nationwide Injunctions and Judicial Authority

A critical discussion unfolds around the use of nationwide injunctions by district courts to counter the administration's policies. Perryman warns of the Supreme Court potentially limiting this judicial power, which could significantly weaken the courts' ability to protect citizens' rights on a broad scale.

Sky Perryman (30:57): "Courts have a great responsibility... the courts have a power, and our laws recognize the court's power to enjoin something as it applies to everyone when it is blatantly unlawful."

Call to Action: Empowering Citizens to Uphold Democracy

Abrams and Perryman conclude by urging citizens to remain vigilant and actively engage in defending the rule of law. Perryman outlines actionable steps, including staying informed, supporting Democracy Forward, and fostering community solidarity to counteract attempts to isolate and intimidate individuals advocating for justice.

Sky Perryman (34:10): "Make a plan. Just like you make a plan to vote, make a plan about how you're getting information... Courage is contagious."

Interview with Mandela Barnes: Mobilizing Voters for the Wisconsin Supreme Court Race

The Stakes of the Wisconsin Supreme Court Election

In a pivotal segment, Abrams interviews Mandela Barnes, former Lieutenant Governor and leader of Power to the Polls, about the upcoming Wisconsin Supreme Court race. Barnes emphasizes the race's significance in shaping the state's legal landscape and, by extension, influencing national policies.

Mandela Barnes (40:59): "Everything is at stake with this race. Two years ago we took the majority in the state Supreme Court for the first time..."

Influence of Billionaire Donors on Judicial Elections

Barnes discusses the unprecedented financial influence of Elon Musk and other conservative donors in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race. He warns of the dangers posed by such concentrated wealth in elections, which can compromise the impartiality of the judiciary and undermine public trust.

Mandela Barnes (42:20): "Elon Musk put in a quarter billion dollars into the presidential race... An unelected oligarch who has been able to step in and wreak havoc."

Mobilization Strategies and Voter Engagement

Barnes outlines Power to the Polls' comprehensive voter mobilization strategies, including year-round community engagement, targeted outreach, and fostering inclusive conversations about critical issues like abortion rights, fair maps, and labor unions. He highlights the importance of engaging with historically underserved communities to ensure a fair and representative electoral process.

Mandela Barnes (50:41): "We engage in year-round on the Ground, constant contact, community organizing... We want the election to be just step one."

Conclusion: Building a Resilient Democracy Together

As the episode wraps up, Stacey Abrams reinforces the importance of collective action and community support in combating the erosion of democratic institutions. She provides listeners with practical tools and resources to stay informed, support legal defenses, and participate actively in upcoming elections.

Stacey Abrams (58:01): "We are doing our best work together. That's the point. That's the passion. That's the mission."

Listeners are encouraged to engage with recommended readings, such as On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder, participate in local advocacy efforts, and support organizations like Democracy Forward and Power to the Polls to sustain the fight for justice and uphold the rule of law.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Stacey Abrams (00:00): "The most apt description of what has happened over the past few weeks is tyranny, the unrestrained exercise of power or authority."
2. Sky Perryman (10:03): "This is a president and an administration that has no interest in working within our legal process... This is a time for courage."
3. Sky Perryman (17:01): "These things have a real impact on people's lives... it shows people, I think, and it demonstrates the tools that we all have as Americans."
4. Sky Perryman (19:36): "Sometimes these setbacks tell us, you know, what you really need to be going to do is you need to go talk to Congress or you need to go talk to the [Federal]..."
5. Sky Perryman (30:57): "Courts have a great responsibility... the courts have a power, and our laws recognize the court's power to enjoin something as it applies to everyone when it is blatantly unlawful."
6. Sky Perryman (34:10): "Make a plan. Just like you make a plan to vote, make a plan about how you're getting information... Courage is contagious."
7. Mandela Barnes (40:59): "Everything is at stake with this race. Two years ago we took the majority in the state Supreme Court for the first time..."
8. Mandela Barnes (42:20): "Elon Musk put in a quarter billion dollars into the presidential race... An unelected oligarch who has been able to step in and wreak havoc."
9. Mandela Barnes (50:41): "We engage in year-round on the Ground, constant contact, community organizing... We want the election to be just step one."
10. Stacey Abrams (58:01): "We are doing our best work together. That's the point. That's the passion. That's the mission."

---

This episode of Assembly Required serves as a clarion call for Americans to remain engaged, informed, and proactive in safeguarding their democratic institutions against insidious threats. By highlighting the critical roles of both legal advocacy and voter mobilization, Stacey Abrams underscores the multifaceted approach necessary to preserve justice and equality in the face of emerging challenges.

Transcript

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Helix Getting a great night's sleep used to be a little bit of a challenge for me. I often work long hours and I spend a lot of time on the road traveling. And ever since I got my Helix mattress, the experience of coming back to my own bed has only gotten more luxurious. With Helix, I can sleep through the night and I wake up more refreshed and ready to go. The helix lineup offers 20 unique mattresses including the award winning Luxe and Ultra Premium Elite collections, Helix Plus, a mattress designed for big and tall sleepers and Helix Kid mattresses designed for growing bodies endorsed by child sleep experts. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep Quiz and find your perfect mattress in under two minutes. Go to helixsleep.com assembly for 20% off sitewide that's helixsleep.com or forward slash assembly for 20% off sitewid helixsleep.com assembly welcome to Assembly Required. I am your host, Stacey Abrams. Before we begin, I want to talk about the state of affairs in the United States in the past few weeks. We've heard lots of poli sci terms to define where we are or to warn about what's happening to America. We've heard oligarchy, autocracy, constitutional crisis, pseudo monarchy. But the most apt description of what has happened over the past few weeks is tyranny, the unrestrained exercise of power or authority. And the United States is subject right now to acts of tyranny. And let's keep in mind that the US Is the world's oldest continuous democratic nation. Not the second, not the third. We are the oldest. And despite the behavior coming out of Washington, D.C. most of us remember that America was born of a rejection of the arbitrary rule of its monarchical leadership, also known as tyranny. One of the ways that our founding fathers and mothers organized themselves to create this grand experiment and governance was by writing and reading about it. They didn't simply stew about what was happening, they wanted to understand it, they wanted to share it, and they wanted to plan what could happen next. So I'm going to invite you to join me in having a conversation about where we are, how we got here, and most importantly, how we navigate out of it. By joining me in a Recommended read from Assembly Required. This first of its kind recommended read is going to be On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder. This book is a short one, but it is very packed full of history and examples and I think hope, I think it will help us understand, confront and resist the seemingly inexorable rise of abuse of power in our nation. Over the next few weeks, I'm going to highlight some of its key lessons, but I'm hoping that as I do so, you're reading along with me, that we're doing this exercise of engagement together. And I hope that you will get as much from this book as I did. It's again, a fairly quick read, but it is worth every word. The reason I want to talk about tyranny is that one of the markers of tyranny is the fracturing of the rule of law at the federal level. We have three branches of government legislative, Congress, executive, the presidency, and the judicial, the courts. And they are meant to serve as a check on one another. That's how our system has lasted for so long. But Donald Trump is acting like the presidency means that he and he alone has power over the entire federal government. So we've seen a collapse of the intention of the presidency acting in its best interest of the people. And so far, Republicans who control Congress, that second branch, they have been not only willing to bend to Trump's intentional abuse of power, they have essentially given up their own power. The list grows every day. They've abandoned the power to control government spending, the power of oversight, the power to create and dismantle agencies, the power to make laws, whether or not we should have a Department of Education or whether a president should be able to invalidate birthright citizenship. Congress is supposed to make these decisions, and they have been unbelievably and unforgivably silent. And that leaves the courts, that third branch of government, as our last check on the abuse of power, on the rise of tyranny. It is up to the courts too often these days to make sure that government is following the law and actually serving the will of the people. Yet right now, the Trump administration has been testing the courts and waging war on their power to constrain him. But let's be clear, this is not an accident. It is part of the playbook of autocrats and tyrants. Trump's moves have sparked more than 100 federal lawsuits, and judges have issued a series of nationwide injunctions to block his policies, such as his illegal executive orders to dismantle dei, his unlawful restriction on birthright citizenship, his move to ban transgender people from serving in the military. And the latest salvo happened on March 15, when Trump invoked the Alien Enemies act of 1798, a wartime law used only three times in history, always during major conflicts. And he invoked it as a pretext to deport about 250 Venezuelan immigrants with little to no due process. A federal judge ordered the administration to stop and immediately turn around any planes in the air because he didn't just deport them, he put them on a plane and sent them to El Salvador, where the United States has agreed to pay for their incarceration. A judge said stop. And the Trump administration ignored it when Judge James Boasberg demanded answers about why his judicial orders were not followed. The El Salvadoran president being paid by our nation to incarcerate immigrants without due process, tweeted oopsie. Too late. With a laughing emoji to taunt the judge. And he in turn was retweeted by our Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. Trump then posted that this duly appointed federal judge should be impeached for acting as a check on executive branch authority. Hours later, though, Chief justice of the US Supreme Court, John Roberts issued a rare statement rebuking the idea of removing a judge from his post because of a disagreement about an unfavorable ruling. Quote, the normal appellate review process exists for that purpose. Robert said, this case doesn't exist in a vacuum. This rise of tyranny and this fracturing of the rule of law is not an accident. It is part of a pattern of undermining and testing the limits of the law and the legal system, and it is not new. We can find examples like this in the histories of former democracies that failed many in the past 50 years. Just this weekend, Trump issued a memorandum that targets law firms that defend causes he opposes and threatens the legal profession of those who dare to protect due process and the people of this country. One of those firms, Paul Weiss, capitulated. They gave in. And more unfortunately are likely to follow if we don't speak up. But why does it matter if law firms cave in to save their businesses or if judges have their rulings ignored? How is our democracy tied to the rule of law at every level of government, starting with the federal government, but not ending there? These are the issues we're going to dig into today. We're going to take a hard look at our legal system and break down Trump's biggest legal cases with Sky Perryman, the president and CEO of Democracy Forward, one of the organizations suing this administration over its use of the Alien Enemies Act. And then we'll talk to Mandela Barnes of power to the polls about the upcoming Wisconsin Supreme Court race, a contest that could be the most crucial election of 2025. So let's get into it Sky Perryman, welcome to Assembly Required.

[Sky Perryman]

It's great to be here with you.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you for taking the time. So I want to start with a level setting question. And this really, I think, speaks to the moment we're in with the abuse of power and we'll have many more examples, but also with the response. And I'm going to draw a contrast. Can you talk a little bit about why it matters that Paul Weiss, one of the nation's top law firms, basically apologized to Trump for having done pro bono work against the January 6th rioters and for defending people in the past and now has pledged $40 million in free legal services for causes that Trump demands they support.

[Sky Perryman]

The first piece of this is like, let's not bury the lead, right? Which is that this is the president and an administration that has no interest in working within our legal process. And so they are trying to intimidate lawyers, they are trying to intimidate law firms, they're trying to intimidate judges. That is what is happening. And this is a time for courage. And we're seeing a lot of instit meet that moment straight on. And we are seeing other institutions that are weighing a range of considerations and aren't really showing up. And so, you know, at Democracy Forward, we have been watching this. We are encouraging all lawyers, just as the American Bar association has encouraged all lawyers, every single one of us that swears an oath to the Constitution and that is required in this time to uphold the rule of law, to do that. And I think that you're seeing that these intimidation tactics, this is a tactic of the administration to try to divide people, to try to ruin solidarity. And we do see that it was a step backwards for that solidarity.

[Stacey Abrams]

Why does it matter that you are antithetical to what we just saw? Democracy Forward, it's in the name. But can you talk a little bit about your organization, what you do, and why your strategy right now is to stand up for democracy, Right?

[Sky Perryman]

Well, we believe fundamentally the fight for democracy is the fight for people. So we're about the American people. And right now, in this moment, the courts are really important to the American people because we have an administration that does not want to be held accountable. They lied on the campaign trail, said they weren't going to operate by a Project 2025 playbook. Now they're accelerating that playbook and then some. And the place you go to hold your administration accountable and to hold the president accountable in this country right now is the courts. And so at Democracy Forward, we are just proud and Honored to be on the front lines every day. And we believe that there's no better work in this time and that there's certainly no better calling as lawyers in this time.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, we know this administration has had a very broad based, bigoted and vicious approach to governing. And part of that has been overwhelmed citizens. It's be asinine and pejorative to the media, and it's to fracture how our country ostensibly operates. I mean, there is no shortage of issues to tackle. So you've taken on an array of cases. I mean, they've given you a lot to work with in the last 40 days. Can you talk about and walk us through how you decide what cases to pursue and what you don't take on?

[Sky Perryman]

What we've tried to do in this administration is to take the administration at their word. This is a president that said he was gonna try to be a dictator on day one. He said that. And it is a administration that has bragged about wanting to govern by a shock and awe approach. I don't know who really says that about, you know, people that they're supposed to be representing and caring for. That's the act of governing, is caring for people. That's not how this administration's operating. And so we have really decided that the American people are not without an advocate in this and that when this administration operates unlawfully and harms people, we are going to be there. We want to meet their shock and awe with the American people's voices. And so you see us work across a range of issues, but we're predominantly really focused on how we can make sure that individuals that are going about their daily lives, right, sending their kids to school, go into work and filling out, you know, work paperwork that, by the way, is housed at the government. So that means that we go in a lot of different directions. We're in court on behalf of the Baptists and the Quakers and the Sikhs because they want. ICE wants to come into houses of worship. I mean, that is not. That's not American. We're in court on behalf of people who are being removed from our country without any process at all, because that's a threat to all of us. And then we're in court to protect people's privacy, to protect public education, inclusion, accessibility, all of those things.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, I want to dive into those cases with you, but before we do that, I want to ask you about some breaking news that we learned about today, Monday, March 24th, when we're recording Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, used his signal thread to share war plans and accidentally included the editor of the Atlantic. Is that something that you would take on? And even if you're not going to, can you talk to Elizabeth, talk to us a little bit about what the legal implications are for what was just done.

[Sky Perryman]

So let me just say that I just came from court earlier today, where you have the United States government standing up into court saying they can remove people from this country without any process whatsoever. And, by the way, in the district court have tried to make claims that they may not be able to tell the judge certain things, even in a classified setting, because it is so important for our national security. And yet they're tweeting about that operation. I mean, you see that all over. And then now we have a cabinet secretary in charge of the Department of Defense on his signal chat signaling war plans. So, first of all, let me just say that is not normal. It violates a range of laws and is a threat to our national security. And we are looking at what legal options are available to protect our national security. We actually care about national security here at Democracy Forward. But secondly, when you have people at the highest levels of the government that are signaling war plans, I mean, this is not an administration that is operating at all to further the safety of Americans at home or abroad. And they just want to use that label when it's politically popular for them to use that label to sort of advance an agenda. So we're concerned about it on a whole host of things. We are looking at it. You can't use signal under the Presidential Records Act. There's a range of other laws that we believe are likely violated here. And so you will see us looking and seeing how we can protect our national security.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, sky, you and your team at Democracy Forward have been a beacon of light for so many who are looking for just small victories. And these haven't been small. So I want to talk about a few of them. You know, you gotta stay. On Trump's order to freeze federal funding via that midnight OMB order, you blocked the administration from entering, as you mentioned, houses of worship indiscriminately to conduct immigration enforcement. You were embedded deeply in the conversation about the deportations. These have been good. Tell us why these lower court rulings matter. We know that they're going to have to go through appeals court and to the Supreme Court. But let's talk about why these victories at the district level matter.

[Sky Perryman]

Well, first of all, they matter because they improve. Of course, with us, it's always gonna be about people, so they improve the lives of people. So that funding freeze, which they wanna call it a spending freeze, because I think they feel like that is somehow politically viable. What it was was an essential services freeze. And people were gonna wake up the next day not knowing if they could operate Meals on Wheels, not knowing if the Head Start centers were gonna be open, not knowing if their small businesses were gonna get the credits they needed to get. And it would have devastating impacts for everybody. People. Purple states, big cities, small towns. And we were able to go into court on behalf of people and stop that across the nation. Last week, we were able to go into court and stop Elon Musk and Doge from accessing your personal data at the Social Security Administration. So these things have a real impact on people's lives. But the reason that they're also important is that it shows people, I think, and it demonstrates the tools that we all have as Americans. We don't live in a country where there's a king, he may want to be a king, but we all have our rights. And the place you go to enforce those rights when the government is violating them or when others are violating them is to court. And so we are really pleased that in this moment, while it is a very scary moment and it's hard for so many of us and so many people across the country, people are able to make their voices heard and to defend their rights. And it's working, which is why, of course, the president is engaged in an effort to intimidate lawyers, to intimidate judges, and to try to really stop the American people from defending their rights in court.

[Stacey Abrams]

So I want to stay with this for a second. You have won favorable rulings, as we've just discussed, but you've also lost at the district court level. And for those who think that those losses mean that you shouldn't have tried or that it signals some grand defeat. Can you describe how you determine the circumstances where legal action is the best strategy? And I want to contextualize it in this moment because I think for so many of us, we hearken back to the days of Brown v. Board of Education, of legal cases that transform society. And I think part of the reality we live in now is that it's not necessarily about our rights being asserted and protected in these and progressed. It's about protection. And so can you talk a little bit about why even not winning is an okay thing?

[Sky Perryman]

Sure. Well, let me start by saying we do win a lot in court. And then there are times where we face setbacks, and the setbacks that we have faced so far. We've not been in a situation where a single federal judge, because I think this is important for people to understand. There hadn't been a single federal judge in any of our cases that has looked at what the Trump administration's done and said, like, I think that, you know, this is 100% lawful. But there are judges that are going to say, well, we're not going to block this today, or we need to hear more, or maybe it is lawful. And so those are setbacks. And then, of course, in a lot of the work we do in states like where you are, Stacey, I mean, some of the places we go, we. We file cases, and sometimes they don't ultimately prevail. But here's the reason all of this is so important. First of all, I'm glad you mentioned Brown v. Board, where Brown v. Board didn't just come as a perfect case out of the sky. And, you know, Thurgood Marshall, you know, ascended on the Supreme Court, and everybody, you know, we all just, you know, became more equal. That's not how that case happened. Right. It happened as a result of a series of lawyers, some of whom history remembers, others of whom we all are grateful for, but we may not even know their names, they were in court pushing our society to do better and pushing our courts to recognize the rights that we all have as people, even if those rights were rights that courts weren't always so quick to recognize. And so we see our work in a lot of the same way. Sometimes these setbacks tell us, you know, what you really need to be going to do is you need to go talk to Congress or you need to go talk to the. You know, they really can help with those pieces, and they're building a record for the future so that we can all move forward together. And so I'm so glad you mentioned that. And I think that we try to talk with our lawyers here a lot about how many cases did it take to get to those momentous moments. And that's what we want to be doing on behalf of people. And we also just want to be bringing cases that protect the rights of people day in and day out. I don't know that the Social Security data case is some case that's necessary necessarily gonna be in the history books. But what I do know is that hundreds of millions of Americans were gonna have their data taken by Elon Musk and Doge, and that's not gonna happen anymore right now. And that is victory enough for us.

[Stacey Abrams]

Absolutely. Today's episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that helps you take control of your money with simple tools that make it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you have is just spare change. Financial wellness can be really overwhelming and when your life is busy, it can be even harder to find time to tackle your finances. Acorns gives you small, simple steps, something we love here at Assembly. Required to get your money on track. Ready to take control of your money? Sign up now and join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com assembly or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non Client Endorsement Compensation provides incentives to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] assembly.

[Mandela Barnes]

Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.

[Stacey Abrams]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

[Mandela Barnes]

Over Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors.

[Stacey Abrams]

With LinkedIn ads, you can target the.

[Mandela Barnes]

Right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results terms and conditions apply.

[Stacey Abrams]

Can you talk a little bit now about the Alien Enemies act case that Democracy Ford and the ACLU are currently pursuing?

[Sky Perryman]

So the Alien Enemies act is an act from the 1700s that has only been invoked three times in the nation's history. It was invoked in the War of 1812, in World War I and in World War II. And it allows for the President to remove people from the country in times of war or invasion. And the law is very clear. It says declared war. And the act has only ever been invoked in the midst of a declared war. And the President has sought to and this is really something that a lot of the far right groups were talking about for some time. They want to try to resurrect this Alien Enemies act and invoke it in a time of peace, which is what we're in now, and use it to summarily remove people from the country, which is what the President tried to do in a shroud of secrecy about two weeks ago. Now so we challenged with the ACLU on behalf of five clients, and then on behalf of a whole class, we've challenged the invocation of that act, which we believe has been unlawfully enacted. And it's a really concerning situation because the administration is actually maintaining, and I just heard this in court today where they said it again, they are maintaining that they can remove people from this country without any process at all. That's actually not even what the act says, but we don't even think the act should apply. And so there's a lot at stake here in this case. And I'm sure you're going to ask me about what's happened because there's been a lot of reporting about the judge's orders. But we have been able to secure orders from the district court that pause the government's swift action here while the courts consider this, because this is just such an unprecedented use of this power.

[Stacey Abrams]

So you mentioned earlier, and I think it's an important piece to dive in on that, even if you support the notion of mass deportations. And we know that prior to the activation of this process, some people said they believed it, that it was a good idea. But what you've really pointed out is that there's the invocation of a, you know, an 18th century law that does not do what he claims it does. But then there's the lack of due process. And I wanna talk about the ways this lack of due process is playing out, especially around immigration. You've got the soccer player who had a tattoo that was fan art for his favorite soccer team, who got deported although he was seeking asylum formally. You have the detention of Mahmoud Khalil, the Columbia student who protested the war in Gaza. You have the deportation of a Lebanese doctor from Brown University because of something they think they saw on her phone. What do these cases and this larger construct, what does it say about free speech and due process for the rest of us who think, well, I'm not an immigrant, this doesn't apply to me. Can you talk a little bit about why we should all be worried, why we should all be paying attention?

[Sky Perryman]

We should be. I mean, one, let me just say we have had a situation in our case and we're watching the other cases where even in the case where a judge says, well, hold on, let's wait a second and let's get some facts, and I'm going to order that the planes be turned around that have been filled with people that have had no process. We have a situation where the government appears to have ignored that and we are working in court right now to get to the bottom of it, as is the district court judge. That should concern everybody, right? Because in this country, if we go into court and you get an order from a judge and you have the government thinking that it's optional about whether they follow that, that is something that should concern all of us and that concerns the judge in our case. And we're waiting and sort of seeing, we're gathering the facts, we don't want to jump to any conclusions and we can come back and talk to it, to you about that after it's fully done. But that is something we should all be watching for because you see these things, the government taking to social media saying, like intimidating judges, saying that they should be impeached because they don't agree with, with their decision. You appeal the decision, you don't ignore the decision, you don't intimidate people, number one. But then there's what they're doing on the substance, which is this notion that the president has, he believes he has some ability to remove people from the country without the process that Congress has provided. And we know the president has a lot of power and the executive branch has a lot of power to conduct deportation operations, to conduct immigration enforcement operations. But what they're doing now is trying to sidestep that process in order to deprive people of process altogether. So how that's playing out in our case is that there are people right now that we believe are in an El Salvadoran prison who have been summarily removed from the country on the basis that the government is claiming that they're in a Venezuelan gang and they aren't. I mean, their family members are reaching out saying we don't, there's no basis for this. And they got removed without any process whatsoever. Who is to stop someone from thinking that you or that me or that one of our loved ones is in one of these organized gangs or in something that they label as a threat to national security and remove you summarily. And so that's actually playing out in the courts. I was there earlier today. And it should concern all of us in this country. And it's a completely unlawful use of this power. We don't even believe that the war power should apply. But even under the law itself, this country, and a judge pointed this out today, this country gave Germans who were accused of being Nazis in the middle of a declared World War II more process than what this president is seeking to do now. And so that's a five alarm fire for all of us.

[Stacey Abrams]

The other part of this, and you spoke to it a bit, is that it's about the power of judges. And another thread that they're trying to pull that will unravel the rule of law is the power of judges to do nationwide injunctions instead of having to find someone in every single jurisdiction to bring the same suit in the same case and whether or not this should be permitted. And we know they've appealed that issue to the Supreme Court as well. Can you talk a little bit about nationwide injunctions and what's the danger of the Supreme Court deciding that district court judges can no longer have blanket application of their injunctions?

[Sky Perryman]

Yeah. Let me just start by, like, let's remember some collective history, which is that the same groups that are now trying to say and trying to constrain the power of the district courts and also even claiming the president sort of claiming in these memoranda that lawyers shouldn't be making these arguments for injunctions, you know, really had no problem with these types of injunctions in the Biden administration. So I just want to be like, I just do need to. They say we got to say that. Okay. And including, by the way, in a case where the Supreme Court, once it got there, 9two zero, said that the case never even belonged in the court, just the case on medication, abortion. There was no outrage by the president's allies in that instance about these injunctions. So I just want to make sure we're all kind of speaking from the same way.

[Stacey Abrams]

Are you suggesting that there's hypocrisy embedded in the Trump administration? And there. I'm, I'm just, I'm.

[Sky Perryman]

It's shocking. I know.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm shocked. Okay, please continue.

[Sky Perryman]

Here's more broadly, look, courts are. Courts have a great responsibility. And no one thinks that a court should issue any type of order that is beyond the type of order that is required to defend people's rights and to protect the interest that's before the court. I mean, that happens all the time. But there is also, the courts have a power, and our laws recognize the court's power to enjoin something as it applies to everyone when it is blatantly unlawful and when, of course, people could not avail themselves of the judicial process all across the country. Again, going back to hypocrisy, these are the people. Remember, these are supposed to be the efficiency people. But I'll just say, so something. Let's take birthright citizenship. Where the state AGs and the ACLU and a number of groups sued on that early, that is a blatant violation of every American's constitutional rights. You don't have to bring that case on behalf of every single person that is affected in order to have a nationwide order. That is the same thing in some of the cases that we've brought where the law has just been violated and there is broad harm. And the way the court can address the broad harm from the plaintiffs in the case is to issue nationwide relief. We've had other cases where the courts have not issued nationwide relief, and they have decided that based on what they're seeing before them, it's important to issue the relief as to the parties affected that are in the case, but that those parties don't necessarily represent something that requires nationwide. So this is really the real piece here, is this is the Trump administration again, when they don't like the rules, trying to change the rules because they can't exist right now in a law and order environment under the rule of law because they're violating the law at so many turns.

[Stacey Abrams]

So what can we do as citizens who sit outside the legal system? How can we stand up for the rule of law? And why does it matter?

[Sky Perryman]

I think there's so much. This is like my favorite question, so. Because I'll just say it's not the lawyers, right? It's our brave clients that are going and they're using the legal process, but it's our brave clients that are saying we deserve better, our communities deserve better, and we're going to enforce our rights. So first of all, for people that are listening, if you are affected by these policies and you're sitting around in your community and all of a sudden your public school isn't getting the funding that it needs for disability programs or for other types of programs. Let's get in touch. Come to democracyfora.org let us know what's going on. Don't discount your ability to maybe be part of the legal work. But even beyond that, I think this is such a time for people, because one, we need people that are vigilant right now about where they're getting their information and about what is happening. And that's why I love your show. I listen to this all the time. But we need people to be vigilant, right? Make a plan. Just like you make a plan to vote, make a plan about how you're getting information. That doesn't mean you have to go doom scroll every day. You can set some boundaries, but let's make a plan about what information we're availing ourselves of Reaching out to your local elected officials, including people in Congress, really does matter. I mean, town halls are now getting shut down because certain of the President's allies are tired of hearing from people. That is not going to bode well for these people or their agenda longer term. And so we do want to make sure, as much as it may seem, that it's just like a voice in the wilderness, it is not. And we do want to make sure that collective action. I'm a big fan of the collective action. There's gonna be a lot of opportunities. We're gonna have some opportunities very soon about how people can stand up against the President's attacks on lawyers, like, get involved in there, add your name, your voice matters. And then finally, I would say find some community, because what these people wanna do, and this is where you started this interview, but what the Trump administration wants to do and what extremists wanna do is they wanna make you feel very alone, even if you're in a community with a lot of people and they wanna kind of pick you off. And they wa at what these people did. They want to make an example out of this group. They want to make us feel alone, they want to make us feel scared. And so right now, spending time together and developing some community with each other is actually not just something that we need to do for our own mental well being. It is actually something that we need to do for our entire country. And so I'm like, you know, go find some community that is truly something we can all do. Courage is contagious. And when we're together, we're going to be able to find that strength. And so those are kind of some of my things right now.

[Stacey Abrams]

Skye Perryman, head of Democracy Forward and Gladiator, on behalf of all of us, thank you so much for joining us.

[Sky Perryman]

Thanks for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by BILT psa. For all of you who rent, you can earn points on groceries, travel and almost anything else you can buy. You should be able to earn points on rent, a huge monthly expense. Well, now you can with bilt. BILT lets renters earn high value points on rent. For my young friends who are just starting out, I plan to tell them about BILT so they can start earning more for their money early on. There's no cost to join BILT and as a member, you'll earn valuable points on rent and on your everyday spending. Built points can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines and even the ones you haven't heard of. There are over 500 airlines and 700,000 hotels and properties around the world where you can redeem your BILT points. Points can also be redeemed towards a future rent payment and unique experiences that only BILT members can access. So if you're not earning points on rent, my question is why not start earning points on rent you're already paying by going to joinbuilt.com assembly that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com assembly make sure you use our URL so they know we sent you joinbilt.com assembly to start earning points on your rent payments today.

[Mandela Barnes]

Is anyone out there another salesperson enduring the endless search?

[Sky Perryman]

Exhausting.

[Stacey Abrams]

If you want to get right to the right conversations, you need LinkedIn Sales Navigator. Whether you're looking for new leads or strengthening existing relationships at your top accounts, get right to the right conversations with LinkedIn Sales Navigator. Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a free 60 day [e-mail] trial. That's LinkedIn.com trial.

[Mandela Barnes]

Terms and conditions apply.

[Stacey Abrams]

One of the intentions of Project 2025 is to devolve power to the states where Republicans control more than half of state legislatures and or governorships or they have split power with a little bit of a tilt towards them. And this intention has been a very long term goal because most of the federal laws that they are attacking are designed to prohibit discrimination which can then proliferate if there's no one stopping them, beginning with discrimination in how elections are handled. Because as our students of voter suppression know, states basically control the mechanisms of democracy, particularly given the erosion of the Voting Rights Act. But who leads our state's three branches of government will impact many other issues in the coming years. With that in mind, I want to turn to one of the most crucial elections of 2025, the Wisconsin Supreme Court race. The winner of that race will hold the swing vote in future 4, 3 decisions shaping the state's legal landscape for years to come. Our next guest is working to mobilize voters through his organization, Power to the Polls to turn out for the Democrats. Former Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes. Welcome to the show.

[Mandela Barnes]

Hey, thank you so much. Really glad to be able to have a conversation with you once again.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, I appreciate you being here. As you know, we're just a few days away from one of the most consequential elections of 2025. I mean, technically it happens. What date?

[Mandela Barnes]

April 1st.

[Stacey Abrams]

There you go, right around the corner. And this is a battle for an open seat on the Wisconsin Supreme Court Judge Susan Crawford is facing off against Brad Schmel, a far right politician who is bankrolled by none other than Elon Musk and other deep pocketed conservative special interest groups. Mandela, can you walk us through what's at stake in this race?

[Mandela Barnes]

So everything is at stake with this race. Two years ago we took the majority in the state Supreme Court for the first time. Some people say 15 years, but it's sort of hard to determine actually where things were 15 years ago. Our politics were completely different. We weren't dealing with the level of extremes that we're dealing with now. Every election wasn't the most consequential end all be all election for the Supreme Court as these races are turning out to be. And there are two things at stake. One is the future of the country. Two, specifically and very selfishly, the state of Wisconsin. I say the future of this country because Elon Musk put in quarter billion dollars into the presidential race. And you see the level of influence that he has on our institutions and effectively on the way of life for so many people in this country. An unelected oligarch who has been able to step in and wreak havoc. And so at this point I want to say he's up to about 13 to 15 million dollars being spent in this state Supreme Court race, which is a wild amount of money. This already surpassed any level of spending historically for Wisconsin Supreme Court race. And two years ago we blew past the record and now that record is way in the rear view. Now with that being said, Elon Musk does have a case in front of the Supreme Court with Tesla, that is one thing. And for anybody to suggest or think that oh, maybe he'll sit this one out and won't be corrupt in this instance, well, let's just give it a try. Is completely fooling themselves. And for Wisconsin to continue to have impartial courts. And when I say the majority, I've said it before and I will say it again, there is a fallacy of nonpartisan courts, especially in this day and age. But in order to do the right things that people are looking for, the nonpartisan things like fair maps and even women's right to choose, which is overwhelmingly supported by people regardless of party, it is going to take a court that understands fairness is not going to lead with a partisan lens. Unfortunately, we have seen so many instances over the course of time, during my time in the state legislature, during my time as lieutenant governor, where the court made the political calculation instead of the calculation that was best for the people of Wisconsin, we just got fairer maps. And now for the first time, the legislature is more reflective of the state of Wisconsin, and we can lose all of that progress. When I say we, I don't mean Democrats. I don't even mean progressives. I mean people here in the state of Wisconsin who just want some fairness and want things to work.

[Stacey Abrams]

So you and I met when you were in the state legislature, as was I, and then we worked together when you were lieutenant governor. And I think it's important for us to contextualize why, in a moment where all of the attention is focused on the national concerns, why it is so critical that we not ignore what is happening at the state level. So one thing you mentioned was Elon Musk is investing heavily in the Supreme Court race because he's got a case in front of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. We know he also has a case in front of the Delaware Supreme Court. We are watching this intentional infusion of capital into not just the attempt to change the outcome, but a very direct and naked attempt to influence the rule of law. Can you talk a bit from the position of having been a lawmaker and then someone responsible for enforcing the laws on the administrative side, executive side, and now someone who is working to support, to protect the courts. Can you talk just a little bit about why the states are such an important barometer of what's happening in this country?

[Mandela Barnes]

Oh, for sure. You even touched on it in the beginning when you talked about Project 25 and delegating so many of the tasks to the states, be it state legislatures or the governors. Now, if it can happen in Wisconsin, it can happen anywhere. And it has absolutely been evidenced that, you know, the things that happen here in Wisconsin tend to have a ripple effect nationwide. We've been really good at a lot of amazing things in this state. I always remind people about us being the first state to ratify the 19th Amendment. Wisconsin was the first state to declare the Fugitive Slaves act unconstitutional. Wisconsin was the first state to have anti discrimination laws based on sexual orientation or ability on the books. We've done incredibly bold things, but we've also outsourced a lot of our bad policies. And I truly believe that if we didn't have to experience Scott Walker for eight years in Wisconsin, Donald Trump wouldn't have been president. Scott Walker showed up with an audacity like no other. Showed up as a person who is completely focused on himself.

[Stacey Abrams]

Can you explain who Scott Walker is?

[Mandela Barnes]

I am so sorry. And I'm glad people have likely forgotten who he is Scott Walker is the former governor of Wisconsin, got elected in 2010. As soon as he got into office, the first steps that he took were to dismantle public sector unions by taking away collective bargaining rights. And also made the most significant substantial cut to public education in the nation's history up until that point. Then also subscribed to the politics of division. And that is what gave wind to the sales of people like Donald Trump. And if we continue down this path where the most wealthy person in the entire world is able to continue to buy elections, we are going to be in trouble and we're all gonna be in a position that we don't wanna be in, where we have to subscribe to the politics of this one man as a country, because we see what is happening to people who want to stand up. And that's something I believe in more than anything else as. No, you do as well. My organization, Power to the Polls, where I'll mobilize and people, especially the folks who are not likely to show up in a spring election right after a presidential the people who aren't getting all the information, the people who haven't been in constant communication with campaigns or political parties, and we're equipping them with information. I can tell you, for folks who weren't necessarily even aware that there was a Supreme Court race coming up, when we mentioned the influence of Elon Musk and Donald Trump, minds changed, people's ears perked up. They start to listen, and they were ready or have become ready to make a plan to vote and to get other people to vote as well.

[Stacey Abrams]

So as someone who's on the ground talking to voters, we know that the specter of Elon Musk, the horrific outcomes in just two months of a Trump presidency 2.0, is having a galvanizing effect on voters. What other issues are driving people to the polls? What are you hearing on the ground?

[Mandela Barnes]

Well, for sure, abortion still remains a critical issue. Wisconsin has an 1849 criminal abortion ban. And the way that we bring our laws up to current status, which truly reflects the will of the people, is having a court that actually respects the will of the people. And so I would say abortion is still very important issue. And also the topic, the cause, fair maps, people want to be truly represented, and people had not been represented since at least 2011. And our maps still aren't perfect right now. They still aren't perfectly fair. They're just a lot better than they were since 2011. And it's made an immediate impact on electoral outcomes. It's also seeming to have some sort of an impact with those folks who now have to think about going to face an electorate that is not going to automatically just show up and vote for them just because of party affiliation. We've seen people at least have more bipartisan chatter, and we've always had bipartisan chatter from our side, but now you're hearing it a little bit more from Republicans. So the fair maps, the right to choose and also the right to collectively bargain. That is, we can talk about jobs being created, we could talk about good jobs. But good jobs don't just happen. Good jobs are here in our communities regardless of what state you're in because of the strides that were made by organized labor, whether it's the 40 hour work week or whether it's even establishment of a minimum wage. We used to have a $7.25 minimum wage in Wisconsin, which is ridiculous. But the fact is, if there aren't unions to push the needle, if people can't make their opinions heard in the workplace without fear of unfair retaliation, then the jobs that will get created aren't necessarily going to be good jobs. Because we'll see employers, we'll see supervisors continue to take advantage of the workforce. I mean, it still happens right now. And that's why organized labor, that's why unions are seeing some of the broadest support that they've ever seen historically.

[Stacey Abrams]

So what are some of the activities we have a lot of conversation on the show about what do you do? So not just what's the problem, why is it a problem? And then how do you solve it? So Power to the Polls has been doing extraordinary work. I had the privilege of working with you over the last few years as a point of privilege. I was actually born in Madison, only lived there for three years. But yeah, I get a little bit of a tie to Wisconsin. But Power to the Polls has been very influential in mobilizing this broad cross section of Wisconsinites. What are you all doing in particular and if anyone's listening, what can they do to help mobilize more Wisconsin voters to turn out to the polls?

[Mandela Barnes]

And thank you so much for highlighting the organization. And I think that you set a really good example of what base building looks like. I think that you set an example of what talking to people that other people are not talking to should, how that should be conducted. And it has to happen in a real way. And we're not just showing up to people's doorsteps 30 to 60 days before an election. We engage in year round on the Ground, constant contact, community organizing. We're there when there is no ballot, even processed, because that's when people are willing to listen. And it also gives us time to follow up and have thorough engagement. It gives us time to answer questions. It gives people a time to even digest that information. When you're showing up when an election on the horizon, people are already inundated with all sorts of political communications. It's hard to discern what's real and what's not when you show up earlier, it gives people time to one do their own research, but we also give them a way to follow up with us. And we do take it upon ourselves to follow up with them. And so in the lead up to elections, one year plus out, we are showing up in communities, we're talking to people. We're also hosting different events that are nominally political, but not always so much because people want to be able to congregate or be in a space where they can speak freely without feel like they're talking to a salesperson trying to get them to vote for someone. And on top of the door knocking, which obviously has to happen, we do radio, we do digital and streaming services, we do targeted mail. And our effort is to just be in touch with people in as many points throughout the day as we possibly can in as many different ways wherever they're receiving information. We want power to the polls to be there. And the most important part of our work is letting people know that the election is just step one. Going to vote for somebody is the first step. We also want to help them and be there to support them in ways when they have grievances that need to be aired or they have an issue that needs to be brought up. And knowing that the only way we not just win elections, but also get real results out of government is when people come together.

[Stacey Abrams]

Awesome. So you talked about the working class vote and how important that is because of the fragility of labor unions in Wisconsin and how important this court can be to protecting and defending those rights. We also know that there's been a larger conversation post election about communities of color. And we have seen an aggressive attack by this administration on black and brown voters especially, and specifically, how are you processing this tension that's happening in our public narrative? You're in the first election since we've been in this broader conversation about who do we talk to. And I think you've alluded to it, but I want you to be really specific about why it matters that we reach out to and not jettison any One community that we have to have this broader conversation, but also this targeted mobilization for sure.

[Mandela Barnes]

And you know, the working class voters is, you know, the most, you know, important voting block because these are folks who have been taken advantage of consistently. People who've been asked for their vote but haven't necessarily been handed the results that people should be immediately witnessing and experiencing. Not immediately, but at least at some point. And with that being the case, this is why we have seen a consistent drop off in black voter turnout in Wisconsin, specifically other states across the country as well since 2012. And this is because people feel as if there's no party who's looking out for them. There is no party that is willing to listen, there's no party that's willing to take the time outside of election cycles. And people are quite frankly over it because quality of life has declined for so many working class people, while at the same time the most wealthy and most powerful in our society has seen wealth and power continue to accumulate. And so we talk to folks who don't have regular voting history. We talk to those high opportunity voters. I tell people we're operating in the HOV lane all year long because when people can at least have a conversation, to have their questions answered and feel as if there's somebody who is willing to listen or at least be able to guide them or point them in the right direction and show them that government can function. But government can only function well when people are able to show up and talk about the things that matter and be able to be in touch with their representatives and to be able to have an outlet that's not just a social media post about things that are going wrong where you have this direct line for too many people, politics just feels so abstract. It feels as if the governing bodies and institutions are intangible. It feels as if there is no way or no mechanism for redress. And that is something that we work to let them know. And so the people who don't have the regular voting history, those are the folks that we're going to continue to talk to. But also sometimes you knock on a door and a person won't even be on the voter file. And you know, we talk to them too. We don't just walk away if the person who we're looking for isn't home. And we've been able to add tens of thousands of people to the voter rolls that are now in our contact list, that are now in our database, that we keep up regular communication with so that they can go from a person who was not ever going to be communicated with. Now these people have an opportunity to become regular voters, frequent voters. These are not just people who feel like they've been asked to go vote. They're people who feel like they've been asked to be a part of the process. And that's the biggest difference.

[Stacey Abrams]

That is exactly what I want to hear. Mandela, what's your last call to action for our audience? They will do what they can. We've got a race coming up on April 1st, but what do you want them to do now and what do you want them to do the day after the race is over?

[Mandela Barnes]

So I want for sure people to support the work of power to the polls. The first step is the election. We had a long Runway to the midterm. And actually on the way to the midterm, we still have another Supreme Court race in exactly one year from next week. So please stay involved, stay engaged with our work. Don't forget about Wisconsin. Things are back and forth all the time, but the harder we work, the more we have a chance to firmly plant Wisconsin in its rightful place. And that's a place of progress.

[Stacey Abrams]

And if our listeners want to learn more about Judge Crawford, where do they go?

[Mandela Barnes]

They can go to her website, which is crawford c r a w f o r d crawford4wi.com Excellent.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you so much.

[Mandela Barnes]

Thank you so much.

[Stacey Abrams]

As always, on assembly required, we like to give our listeners actionable tools for facing the challenges of the day. I do want to highlight something that sky mentioned, which is that there are a lot of actionable opportunities coming down the pike. For many of you, it has felt like you were searching for something to do and I am so grateful for your energy and for the patience you've shown. There have been a lot of groups scrambling to figure out how to meet this moment simply because it is unprecedented in this country and it is scary. But I'm proud that we are coming together, that we are doing things. And over the next few weeks, we will be keeping you up to date on what's happening and where so that you can get involved. But here's this week's toolkit. We want you to, as always, be curious, solve problems and do good. So first, get support. Donald Trump's blatant disregard for the justice system, as sky pointed out, will have far reaching consequences, especially for immigrants of all legal statuses. So if you or someone you know needs support, local organizations across the country are ready to help. For example, there is Sembra nc and it works to protect community members from abusive employers, landlords, ICE and harmful policies. If you're in North Carolina, you can call their DefenSA hotline at 336-543-0353 to report suspected ice activity in your community or workplace and to report workplace issues like stolen wages. That's 336-543-0353. Next, we're going to use our resources. In this episode, we focused on the power of the law and Donald Trump's vision of America. We're not going to give him credit for having this country yet, and that's because we as individuals still have power. If you want to take action, Crooked's friends at Vote Save America are mobilizing people to show up at Republican town halls and hold them accountable. Just go to votesaveamerica.com, enter your email and zip code, and the site will connect you with local town halls where you can speak out and make your voice heard. And I'm going to tag onto that to remember that you cannot just talk to your congressional members. Talk to your local elected officials. Everyone who got elected has a responsibility to uphold the Constitution, so they have the responsibility to listen to you. If you can't get to one of these meetings, that doesn't mean you should be silent. Show up where power is and show them you have power. And then the final one is AR's recommended read. As I mentioned at the top of the episode today, we are recommending on Tyranny by Timothy Snyder. Please pick up a copy from your local bookstore, buy it online from bookshop.org or borrow it from your local library. We will begin our mutual study next week. Remember, you can find the toolkit recommendations online for each topic because we know it's hard to remember everything, especially if you're listening on the Go on the podcast website. Click View Episode for all of the details. And if you're watching on YouTube, just expand the episode description and you will find recommendations to learn more and do more. And I'm going to ask you to share more. We are having important conversations with extraordinary guests and I keep talking to folks who wish they knew more. If you've got someone like that in your life, let them know about this podcast. Let them know about how you're learning, what you're learning, and let us know what else you want to know. Because here at assembly required, we do our best work together. That's the point. That's the passion. That's the mission. Okay? So as a reminder, we can be found wherever you get your podcast, including on YouTube. And if you want to tell us what you've learned, what you've solved, or what you're worried about, Send us an [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be Featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Ilona Minkowski and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilius Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer and Samantha of Slasburg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Sky Perryman]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Stacey Abrams]

Progressive Commercial Insurance Business Owners Meet Progressive Insurance. They make it easy to get discounts on commercial auto insurance and find coverages to grow with your business. Quote in as little as 7 [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company coverage provided and.

[Sky Perryman]

Serviced by affiliated and third party insurers.

[Stacey Abrams]

Discounts and coverage selections not available in.

[Sky Perryman]

All states or situations.

[Mandela Barnes]

The Quarter Pounder with Cheese has many great things. Maple flavored griddle cakes isn't one of them. McDonald's breakfast comes first.