How John Legend Learned To Forgive His Mother (From Your Mama's Kitchen)

Summary

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams Episode Summary: How John Legend Learned To Forgive His Mother (From Your Mama's Kitchen) Release Date: March 20, 2025 Guest: John Legend

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Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of Your Mama's Kitchen, hosted by Michelle Norris, John Legend opens up about his formative years, his complicated relationship with his mother, and how cooking became a medium for healing and connection. The conversation delves deep into family dynamics, personal growth, and the role of food in shaping identities.

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Early Life and Family Dynamics

John Legend begins by painting a vivid picture of his childhood in Springfield, Ohio. Raised in a middle-class, working-class neighborhood, John's father worked tirelessly on the assembly line at International Harvester (later Navistar International) as a UAW union autoworker, building trucks to support the family.

Notable Quote:

"We grew up in a four-bedroom house in a kind of middle-class, working-class neighborhood." (04:25)

John shares that his mother, although not passionate about cooking, played a pivotal role in the household by homeschooling him and his siblings. This environment fostered a sense of responsibility and self-sufficiency among the children.

Homeschooling and Academic Excellence

Michelle Norris highlights John's academic prowess from a young age, comparing him to the fictional Doogie Howser. Despite being two years younger than his high school peers, John emphasizes how homeschooling allowed him to stay ahead academically while nurturing his love for music.

Notable Quote:

"My mom's teaching and tutoring really helped me stay ahead of other kids." (10:35)

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Cooking as a Source of Control and Connection

With his parents' divorce and his mother's subsequent drug addiction, the responsibility of maintaining the household fell largely on John. Cooking became both a necessity and a solace for him.

Notable Quote:

"I was like the cook. Yeah, I ran the kitchen starting at, like, 12 years old." (24:17)

John recounts how he took over meal preparations, using boxed foods like Rice-A-Roni and Hamburger Helper to feed his siblings. This role not only provided stability but also a way to connect with his mother during her sporadic appearances.

Notable Quote:

"I liked creating something and sharing it with people and making them happy." (25:01)

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Impact of Family Loss and Mental Health

The sudden death of John's maternal grandmother deeply affected the family. His mother's depression and drug addiction followed, leading to a decade-long estrangement. This period was tumultuous, with John feeling both resentment and helplessness towards his mother's struggles.

Notable Quote:

"I just want to stay away... and so I threw myself into school and church and music." (18:08)

John discusses how these experiences influenced his music, particularly songs like "Ordinary People," which reflect the complexities of relationships and personal struggles.

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Reconciliation and Forgiveness

Over time, John gained a deeper understanding of his parents' humanity, recognizing their flaws and vulnerabilities. This realization paved the way for forgiveness and rebuilding his relationship with his mother.

Notable Quote:

"When we start out, we just see them as they're everything. But eventually, you just realize they're actually human." (22:29)

He emphasizes the importance of empathy and grace in mending familial bonds, not just for personal peace but for the well-being of future generations.

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Cooking Today: A Family Affair

John and his wife, Chrissy Teigen, both share a passion for cooking. Their home serves as a creative hub where John records music and Chrissy develops recipes for her cookbooks. Together, they prepare meals for their four children, balancing sophisticated dishes with simpler options tailored to their kids' tastes.

Notable Quote:

"We cook together. Sometimes I'll take over and do a whole dinner. Sometimes she'll do the same." (29:47)

Their collaboration in the kitchen reinforces the value of family and the joy of creating and sharing meals.

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Activism and Community Engagement

John connects his personal experiences with broader social issues, particularly his advocacy for formerly incarcerated individuals. Influenced by his upbringing and the civil rights activists he admired, he leverages his platform to promote justice and equity.

Notable Quote:

"I've always thought about politics in the sense of how can we get closer to equity and freedom and justice for everybody." (27:28)

He shares a poignant example of supporting Haitian immigrants in his hometown, highlighting the importance of community solidarity in the face of divisive national rhetoric.

Notable Quote:

"Food really brings people together and allows people to talk in a certain way." (38:35)

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Conclusion and Advice

As the conversation wraps up, John offers heartfelt advice to listeners dealing with strained family relationships. He underscores the importance of forgiveness, understanding, and the enduring bonds of family.

Notable Quote:

"If you see a way to understand why they did the things that they did, to empathize with them... it will help you forgive them and find a way to reconcile." (39:38)

John emphasizes that reconciliation not only heals personal relationships but also creates a supportive environment for future generations.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Your Mama's Kitchen provides an intimate glimpse into John Legend's life, illustrating how personal challenges and the act of cooking can intertwine to foster resilience and healing. His journey of forgiveness and community activism serves as an inspiring testament to the power of empathy and shared experiences.

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Recipes Mentioned:

• John Legend’s Mom’s Mac and Cheese: A family favorite that includes a unique twist with green peppers and Ritz crackers on top, transforming it into a delightful casserole.
  • Access the Recipe: Chrissy Teigen’s Website

Join the Conversation: Listeners are encouraged to share their own family recipes and stories to be featured in future episodes by sending voice memos to [e-mail].

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Episode Credits: Produced by Sonia Tunn with production assistance by Camila Thurde. Sound design and engineering by Andrew Epen, Ryan Kozlowski, and Roy Baum. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Mukta Mohan, Dan Fearman, and Michelle Norris.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Michelle Norris]

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[John Legend]

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[Michelle Norris]

This week I wanted to tell you about something special, another podcast I'm excited to share, especially as someone who loves to cook called you'd Mama's Kitchen. It's a show about cuisine and culture, ingredients and identities, and the meals and memories that make us who we are. Host Michelle Norris talks to Michelle Obama, Glennon Doyle, Gayle King, and so many other guests about the complexities of family life and how their earliest culinary experiences helped shape their personal and professional lives. And of course, each guest shares a recipe for a favorite dish from their youth so you can taste a bit of their story. In this episode, singer John Legend takes us back to his roots in Springfield, Ohio, where he was an academic overachiever and a musical prodigy. John opens up about his early, complicated relationship with his mother and how over time, they came together. Plus, we learned how to make his mom's special Mac and cheese. You can hear more of your Mama's Kitchen wherever you get your podcast.

[John Legend]

My dad did all that he could, you know, while still working every day.

[Michelle Norris]

Did he step into the kitchen then?

[John Legend]

No. I was cooking, by the way.

[Michelle Norris]

You were cooking by the way.

[John Legend]

I was like the cook.

[Michelle Norris]

You were the cook?

[John Legend]

Yeah. All right.

[Michelle Norris]

Paint a picture of that for me.

[John Legend]

It's me roasting a chicken sometimes. Sometimes making chili or spaghetti or hamburger helper or rice. A roni. Yeah, whatever I needed to make.

[Michelle Norris]

So you really ran the kitchen?

[John Legend]

Yeah, I ran the kitchen.

[Michelle Norris]

That's impressive.

[John Legend]

Starting at, like, you know, 12 years old.

[Michelle Norris]

Hello, hello, and welcome back to your Mama's Kitchen. This is the place where we explore how we are shaped as adults by all the kitchens that we grew up in as kids. And if you're watching this, you see who I'm here with. If you're listening, I'm gonna tell you a little bit about this guest and I'm gonna hope you can figure out who it is. This is someone who's had multiple platinum records starting with Get Lifted. That was his debut album that forever changed the landscape of R and B and soul music. It is the album that gave us that Grammy award winning hit, Ordinary People. A song I love, a song that we all sang along with. He is also a 12 time Grammy Award winner. He was the first black man to win an egot. That's an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony. He's known for his political activism and also for his style, which you can quite clearly see if you're watching this. I am of course talking about John Legend.

[John Legend]

Michelle, it's so good to hang out with you. Thanks for being here.

[Michelle Norris]

It's great to be here and thank you for letting me into your home so I can see how you live and how you work. Something's cooking in the kitchen, so it's good that we're gonna be talking about the kitchen.

[John Legend]

So this home is. So we actually don't live here, but we bought a residential home as kind of like a creative hub for us. So it's like our office, our production house. I record all of my albums upstairs in what used to be the master bedroom here. And then Chrissy uses the kitchen to develop recipes with her chef and photograph things for her cookbook and develop all the products that you see come out for cravings.

[Michelle Norris]

I feel so lucky to be here. It's such a cozy space. There's pots and pans and big bowls of snacks.

[John Legend]

It's a creative space. Yes.

[Michelle Norris]

Spongebob is snow ed over us.

[John Legend]

Snacks everywhere. Chrissy loves snacks. And the kids school is right down the street, so they'll usually come here after school. And it's just a really like, it's full of creative energy, full of life and love.

[Michelle Norris]

So I don't know if they're baking cookies or banana bread, but something smells wonderful. So let's begin with. Okay, good snacks. Afterwards, our show always begins with an origin story and the theory is that we become who we are because of life lessons from the kitchen. So take me back to Springfield, Ohio.

[John Legend]

Yes.

[Michelle Norris]

What was the kitchen like that you grew up in?

[John Legend]

So I grew up in Springfield, Ohio. We grew up in a four bedroom house in a kind of middle class, working class neighborhood. My dad was a factory worker and so every day he would go to build trucks for a living.

[Michelle Norris]

He worked at International Harvester, at International.

[John Legend]

Harvester, which eventually became Navistar International. And he was on the assembly line, and he would build trucks. He was a UAW union autoworker.

[Michelle Norris]

Was your family a big. Did they cook a lot? Did they cook big meals during the week, or was it more fast food?

[John Legend]

It was more. It was more kind of utilitarian cooking.

[Michelle Norris]

What does that mean?

[John Legend]

Like, my mom wasn't, like, she didn't like glory in cooking. She didn't love it. Like, I love it, and like, Chrissy loves it, and, like, some of my aunts and relatives loved it. She cooked, but she wasn't the person that was, like, didn't wake up every day thinking, I'm excited to make this meal. Oh, I have this new idea. She didn't love it like that.

[Michelle Norris]

So four kids, they have to be fed. So what was dinner like on a Tuesday?

[John Legend]

So sometimes it would be probably the most effort went into the meat, whatever that meat was going to be, whether it was salmon or whiting or.

[Michelle Norris]

Oh, very, very Midwestern fish.

[John Legend]

Very Midwestern fish. And then a lot of times they would use kind of boxed kind of foods, like rice, a Roni or Hamburger Helper or Kraft Mac and Cheese, Velveeta Mac and Cheese. All those kind of easy shortcuts. You know, when you got four kids, you're just trying to get it done. And there were a lot of kind of boxed foods that helped you get it done.

[Michelle Norris]

Describe the kitchen for me. If I were to walk through the front door of your house, make my way back into the kitchen, what did it. What did it look like? Go back there in your mind.

[John Legend]

We had a carpet in our kitchen, which was kind of weird. Yeah, it was kind of weird and didn't stay clean.

[Michelle Norris]

So what color carpet?

[John Legend]

It was like, yellow and brown. You know, it was decorated in the 70s, so it had, like, some of that probably polyester. I don't know. It was really thin. It wasn't like a, you know, lush carpet. It was very thin carpet. But we had a carpet in the kitchen, and it wasn't a great idea. Like, you need tile there, especially all the spills that are going to happen again. I don't think my mom cared too much about cooking or the kitchen, so she didn't put a lot of energy into making the kitchen amazing.

[Michelle Norris]

What about the kitchen table? Is that where you spend a lot of time with your siblings?

[John Legend]

Yeah, so we spent a lot of time at the kitchen table, and we were homeschooled by my mother.

[Michelle Norris]

That's fun.

[John Legend]

And so actually, if you see my show, my solo show where I tell my songs, I mean, I Tell my stories and sing my songs. You'll see a picture of me sitting at the kitchen table with my mom, teaching me, homeschooling me. Because I had won the Springfield City Spelling Bee. And part of the kind of the headline of the story in the newspaper was product of home teaching. When's the Springfield City Spelling Bee? And they came to my house and took a picture of me sitting at the kitchen table with my mother. And so, in a lot of ways, that kitchen table shaped me because a lot of my education was happening there.

[Michelle Norris]

So all of you were homeschooled, at.

[John Legend]

Least for a little bit? Not really my younger siblings, because by the time they were school age, my parents got divorced and we were going to public school.

[Michelle Norris]

That's probably why your mom didn't have a lot of energy for cooking. She's like, you know, teaching mathematics and reading. And, you know, she had a lot going on art projects while she's homeschooling, and then she has to pivot and try to get dinner together. That's a little bit difficult to do.

[John Legend]

Yeah, it was hard. And so she didn't spend a lot of time cooking. And also, when she did cook, I was really into it. So I wanted to learn from her when she was cooking. And so I was like, I'll do it, Mom. I'll take over. And so by the time I was like, 10 or 11, I started cooking.

[Michelle Norris]

In the house for the whole family.

[John Legend]

Yes.

[Michelle Norris]

What were your specialties?

[John Legend]

Some of that same box food, but also I would. Sometimes we would roast the chicken in the oven or grill a steak on the stove or something like that. But still a lot of those shortcut meals, too.

[Michelle Norris]

You sound like you're an old soul.

[John Legend]

I am an old soul. I got along really well with my grandmother, my maternal grandmother especially. She was the church organist at my church, and my mom was the choir director. My grandfather was the pastor. And so I grew up around them a lot, and I enjoyed being around older people, and particularly my grandmother, she taught me how to play gospel music. And so when you hear me playing and singing, I'm still very influenced by her musical tutelage. And so, yeah, I was definitely an old soul as a kid.

[Michelle Norris]

Did you get involved in music with the idea that you were going to be part of the musical ministry at.

[John Legend]

The church at the time.

[Michelle Norris]

Did you have pop stardom in mind?

[John Legend]

I think I was thinking about both. I definitely wanted to lead the music at my church as a young person and be involved in the music at my church. But there's Always that kind of sacred and secular divide for kids that grow up in the church with music. And you've seen a lot of our biggest R and B singers having started in the church. And sometimes there's some friction coming from the church and going into secular music, but I didn't feel that much friction. And I was always into the idea of, you know, I'm watching the Grammys and I wanted to be on that stage just like those Grammy performers were. And so I always had a feeling that I wanted to be on that big stage, and I didn't want to limit myself and not do secular music.

[Michelle Norris]

Why did your mom decide to homeschool you? And was it easier to nurture your dreams at a kitchen table than it would be, say, in a public or even a private school where kids. Because, you know, kids can douse your dreams. They can, you know, you're not all that or try to get you to absorb their dreams or what they think they want to do in life.

[John Legend]

So it's interesting because I think a lot of what they were hoping was that we would have a Christian education. And so actually, before I was homeschooled, well, I was homeschooled a little bit, kind of like in the kindergarten years. So I never went to organized kindergarten, but when I first went to an organized school, it was a Christian school, private school. And my parents, you know, were very religious and didn't really want me exposed to a public school education when they thought a Christian education would be better. But Christian education costs money. And so after a while, they were like, you know, this is too expensive. We're going to bring you guys back home. But before I went to Christian school, I was already reading really well, doing math really well. And they tested me, and I was supposed to go into first grade, but they put me in second grade, so I was already a year younger than everyone. So homeschool and my mom's teaching and tutoring really helped me stay ahead of other kids. And once I got to private school, I was there, flourishing, doing really well, and also involved in music at school, music at church, music at home. And so I guess, would my dreams of being a musician have happened the same way if I wasn't homeschooled? Probably because I think so much of the influence happened at church, and we had a piano at home, too. And I don't think me going to organized school would have dissuaded me in any way from loving music and then also being around a lot of music.

[Michelle Norris]

So we should just talk about your Schooling for a minute. Because you were like Doogie Howser.

[John Legend]

Yeah. You were really not that advanced. Cause he was a doctor by teenage years. But I was two years younger by the time I graduated high school. So I skipped one more grade in middle school when we finally went to public school. So my parents got divorced, and my mom wasn't living with us anymore. So I finally enrolled in public school. But again, they tested me to see where they should place me. And they were like, we'll put them in eighth grade. And so I get to eighth grade when I'm 11, and I get to high school when I'm 12.

[Michelle Norris]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You were 11 in eighth grade?

[John Legend]

Yeah. In high school? 12. Okay. Yeah.

[Michelle Norris]

Was that a little bit difficult?

[John Legend]

Yes, it was difficult. I wouldn't advise it, really, because those differences in age are monumental at that point in your life. You know, two years difference now, even.

[Michelle Norris]

Just in terms of size.

[John Legend]

Yeah, I'm 45 now. Two years doesn't matter. So, like, I went to my reunion. All my friends are 47. Not a big difference. But when you're in high school and one is 12 and one is 14, that's a big difference. Like, I was a foot shorter than I am now. I'm 510 now. I was like 411 then. Hadn't gone through puberty yet, you know, and so you're socially, like, at a disadvantage then. And if you care about sports, you're not gonna be good at sports compared to the kids that are two years older and bigger and stronger. And so there's definitely some disadvantages to it. Luckily, I had music and books, and that was what I focused on.

[Michelle Norris]

And music gave you confidence?

[John Legend]

Music gave me confidence, and it gave me confidence to do everything else honestly. Because it made it so I felt comfortable introducing myself to people. Cause they had just seen me on stage. And music was like the icebreaker that I needed to connect to everybody else and in other ways.

[Michelle Norris]

So the kitchen is a place of learning, a place of comfort, a place of discovery. There was a period in your life where your family went through a really rough patch.

[John Legend]

So that same grandmother that was the organist at my church, she worked with my mother a lot. Because my mother was the choir director. They were very close. She died at a really young age. She was only 58 years old. And so right kind of in the heart of my childhood. And when she and my mother were getting really close. Cause they were together a lot, she died. And it really devastated our whole family. But my mom took it really badly, and she got Depressed first, and then she started to kind of spiral and went into drug addiction and was estranged from us for a while.

[Michelle Norris]

You know, depression is something that we talk about by name now, but there was a long time when we didn't know. We'd say, oh, somebody has the blues.

[John Legend]

Yeah. We didn't talk about it like that then. And I didn't really process what was going on. I was more just kind of upset, and I didn't even necessarily understand that it was because her mother died. I was just upset that we didn't have our mom around and that she seemed to be failing, you know, like she was failing us, she was failing herself, and I was upset with her at the time.

[Michelle Norris]

You haven't talked a lot about it. You're starting to open up. You and your mom are very close now. And at the show, we appreciate that when people tell these stories, because everything in the kitchen is not always apple pie and cookies.

[John Legend]

That's right.

[Michelle Norris]

You know, it's where we have our loudest laughter and sometimes our toughest tears.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Michelle Norris]

When your mom was going through that, was it rather sudden, or was it sort of a slide? And were you able to. Sometimes when you're the oldest, I'm the second oldest. And sometimes when you're. I mean, oldest, meaning like, top of the tier in the family, you're a fixer. You know, you're trying to, like, make everything right. So did you notice that this was happening? And were you and your siblings, or you in particular, as you say, you're the one who was cooking, and you're the one who would always take on those roles. Were you trying to figure out how to navigate that in some way?

[John Legend]

Well, I'm definitely one of those people that likes to fix things, and I think I kind of attribute it to being a middle child, because I'm like. I had my older brother, my younger brother, they would fight a lot, and I'd be trying to, like, break it up and be the peacemaker in the house. And my personality is a lot like my dad's. He's very mellow and peaceful and just calm under pressure. And so I have his personality in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, I would try to, like, just try to fix things, but all of us kind of figured out how to help. So we all had chores around the house, whether it was doing dishes, doing the laundry, cleaning the bathroom. Even before my mother was gone, they were teaching us to do all these things around the house, and they taught us that that was part of our role as you Know, being raised in this home, like you have to do chores. And so we were all learning to do things around the house that we need to do to take care of ourselves. Now we were doing as kids, as contributors to the home. So part of our allowance was based on chores, whether or not you did the chores. And we had a checklist on the wall and. And so everybody was involved. It wasn't just me, but I particularly gravitated towards cooking and I enjoyed cooking and I liked the idea of creating something that everybody could love and enjoy together. And so I've always enjoyed that.

[Michelle Norris]

You said your mom was gone for a while. Did she leave?

[John Legend]

She was gone. So my parents got divorced and my mom was living across town and we barely saw her for like a decade.

[Michelle Norris]

A decade is a long time.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Michelle Norris]

Were you in touch at all during that period?

[John Legend]

A little bit. But let me tell you, it was hard to see her, honestly, because she was addicted to drugs and she was kind of wasting away and her behavior was like erratic and you know, as like a 14 year old, a 15 year old. Like, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I didn't know what to. What I was supposed to do to fix it. And so part of me was like, I just wanna stay away. And so I just threw myself into school and church and music and everything else. And I didn't go out of my way to like witness all the turmoil she was going through. Cause it was really hard to witness.

[Michelle Norris]

Did you channel any of that into your art?

[John Legend]

I believe so, yeah. I mean, I think it's all in there. And I think when I sing about relationships, one of the songs that directly, I think references it was Ordinary People. Because by that point my parents had gotten back together and gotten remarried to each other after my dad had been married to someone else in between.

[Michelle Norris]

And that's actually beautiful.

[John Legend]

And then they were actually about to get divorced again when I was writing the song. And so I'm like, yeah, we're just ordinary people. Sometimes it's hard just trying to make it.

[Michelle Norris]

Just trying to make it work. Tell me a little bit about your mom.

[John Legend]

Yeah, she's so brilliant and like gorgeous. And she's just a light. Like if you ever see her spend time around her, she has such positive energy. She loves teaching us. She just leaned into being a homeschool teacher. She loved it. She wasn't formally trained to be a teacher, but she was really good at it and enjoyed it. And she loved music, she loved teaching, she loved reading, and she loved Jesus So she was at church all the time, directing the choir. And she grew up in. She was a preacher's kid, and she grew up in a household that was pretty strict. And my grandfather had five girls and one boy. And if you know anything about the church, specifically the Pentecostal church, you, during that time is pretty traditional and fundamentalist and had a lot of rules around what women could do, what they couldn't do. They were expected to get married at a pretty young age. So my mother met my father as a late teenager and got married when she was 18 years old. And so she went straight from her dad to my dad. And I think part of what happened with her was the grief of her mother dying and then also just never having a chance to be her own person and going straight from her dad to my dad into being a mother. I think, like, she just needed, like, to release somehow. And it happened unhealthily. But I think that's. That was kind of part of the cause for it.

[Michelle Norris]

You know, when you have an estranged parental relationship, it's odd. I have a similar story in my family. When my parents got divorced, my mom moved out, lived down the street, eight blocks down the street. And we wound up becoming very, very close. That's not promised to you when you have that kind of break. I, too, grew up like Gidget with my dad when they broke up. But in order for you to come back, both sides have to be open. The heart has to be open on both sides. And it's sometimes hard because you're still processing. Where were you? You're still processing like, I needed you when you weren't around. And you have to put that away.

[John Legend]

And sometimes you have to. Enough living so you understand the causes for these things. I think we have a hard time accepting that our parents are human and that they're flawed and that they're weak sometimes. And just, you know that when life happens, yeah, they might get depressed or they might do some things that are harmful to themselves or to others, but they're human. And when we start out, we just see them as they're everything. They're our parents, and they can do no wrong. But eventually, as you get older, you just realize they're actually human and they're susceptible to all the human frailties and flaws that humans have. And I think it makes it easier to forgive them, too.

[Michelle Norris]

Tell me about your dad, also, because he stepped in, kept everybody together. He's working at International Harvester, and now he's coming home and dealing with the Hamburger Helper and The rice, a roni, and everything else. So how. How did he manage to keep the family together and keep you all on track?

[John Legend]

Well, we needed help. You know, he needed help, so he had folks from the church come by and help out. We were kind of latchkey kids at that point. Cause my older brother and I, you know, we were old enough to, you know, we could be left at the house to make sure everything didn't go awry. And, you know, during that era, parents weren't as helicoptery as they are.

[Michelle Norris]

Oh, no, we were feral.

[John Legend]

Yeah, we were feral. You know, and we could roam the streets and play with our cousins around the corner and just be home by dark.

[Michelle Norris]

But also, neighbors watched out.

[John Legend]

Yeah, neighbors watched out. And there was a sense of neighborhood in my community. Our next door neighbors, we all knew, the ones on the left side, went to church with us. And my grandfather actually raised my mother in the house that we were living in. So not only were they our neighbors, but they had known my family and my mother's family since my mom was a kid. And so there were all these people around us that helped take care of us, helped look out for us. I had a black male high school counselor that really looked out for me and, you know, helped me apply to colleges and just had my back at school. And we had aunts and uncles that came through when we needed them, choir directors. Just different people around the community that, you know, just stepped in and helped out. And then my dad did all that he could, you know, while still working every day.

[Michelle Norris]

Did he step into the kitchen then?

[John Legend]

No, I was cooking, by the way.

[Michelle Norris]

I was cooking by the way.

[John Legend]

I was like, the cook.

[Michelle Norris]

You were the cook. All right. Paint a picture of that for me.

[John Legend]

It's me roasting a chicken sometimes. Sometimes making chili or spaghetti or hamburger helper or rice, a roni. Yeah, whatever I needed to make.

[Michelle Norris]

So you really ran the kitchen.

[John Legend]

Yeah, I ran the kitchen.

[Michelle Norris]

That's impressive.

[John Legend]

Starting at, like, you know, 12 years old.

[Michelle Norris]

And was that in part because you liked it or was it.

[John Legend]

It was a necessity, and I liked it. Okay, well, the necessity part was my mom was gone, but I had already started learning from her when she was there and cooking because I enjoyed it.

[Michelle Norris]

Was it a way to kind of get in touch with her also?

[John Legend]

Yes, but also I think I liked the. I liked the project. I liked creating something and sharing it with people. Like, I still enjoy it a lot.

[Michelle Norris]

It's also, sometimes when you're going through something, it's a world that you can control.

[John Legend]

Yes, it's control, it's creativity. It's something to occupy your mind and your energy, and then the result is something that you can share with people and make them happy. And I loved all of that.

[Michelle Norris]

John, you're known for your political activism. We saw that most recently in the election. You have done a lot to raise money for certain causes that you care a lot about. And you've done work, in particular for people who are formerly incarcerated and people who are in prison. Is that in part because of your life's journey and what happened to your mother? Is there a connection between those two things?

[John Legend]

Yes, but my mother was only briefly in jail, and she wasn't. I wouldn't think of her as someone that was incarcerated for any significant period of time. But I've had other relatives and close friends I grew up with who are, like. Who did a bid, like, they were in prison for years and have had to come back to society. And that's really hard. Hard to find jobs, hard to find housing, hard to find just people to give you a second chance. And so I've definitely been influenced by that. But also, I take it back to my homeschooling and my parents taking me to the library and the things that I was interested in and reading about. I really liked reading about Dr. King and other civil rights activists. I really found meaning in what they did, and it set a standard for me for what, like, a real purposeful life is. And so I was always attracted to historical figures that stood up for justice, stood up for my people. And in the face of death threats and so much backlash and resistance, they fought for something that was bigger than themselves. And so I was always attracted to people like that. And that was my kind of first understanding of what politics was, was through the lens of looking at civil rights activists. And so I've always thought about politics in the sense of how can we get closer to equity and freedom and justice for everybody, and how do we use the levers of the political system to get us closer to that?

[Michelle Norris]

And you've always. That's always been a compass for you?

[John Legend]

Yeah, I think so. And I think I was influenced by all those activists that I talked about, but also by seeing musicians and seeing the musicians that use their platform to actually make a difference. Because at that same time that Dr. King was marching, people like Mahalia Jackson were there and Nina Simone and Aretha Franklin was there, but also giving money. Harry Belafonte was there, but also giving money. A lot of these artists, he took.

[Michelle Norris]

Care of the King kids.

[John Legend]

Yes, they Knew that they were in a very fortunate place to have come from our community and made it big. You know, Harry Belafonte was one of the biggest recording artists in the world at the time. Aretha Franklin one of the biggest recording artists in the world. And they knew where they came from, and they used the platform that they had to actually give back and support the movement. And so, again, these were my examples, and these are the people that I thought of as role models of what an artist is supposed to be. And all of my activism has been fueled and motivated and kind of the foundational information that came into my head that made me aspire to that was through artists like that and activists like that.

[Michelle Norris]

Do you cook now in the way that you did as a child?

[John Legend]

I cook in a much more sophisticated way now. Like, we don't use the boxes. We're not using rice, a roni.

[Michelle Norris]

Yeah, I don't think Chrissy would dig that.

[John Legend]

Only boxes we use are Chrissy's, which.

[Michelle Norris]

Are all over here.

[John Legend]

Yes. Her cookies, her banana bread, et cetera. But when it comes to, like, savory food for dinner, we're usually going with a recipe that we've developed ourselves for Chrissy's book. Or we'll look online, we'll go to, like, New York Times Cooking, or we'll just search what's the best, blah, blah, blah, and just look at a few and see what the reviews are, see what the ingredients are, and just make it. And I love making recipes. I just find that whole process fun. I like ordering the groceries. I love trying to nail it and get it just right. But doing whatever zhuzhing I need to do to deviate from the recipe and then coming out with a finished product that everybody loves, it's just a great feeling for me.

[Michelle Norris]

So you both cook?

[John Legend]

We both cook all the time.

[Michelle Norris]

Do you cook together?

[John Legend]

Yeah, we cook together. And sometimes I'll just take over and do a whole dinner. Sometimes she'll do the same.

[Michelle Norris]

And the kids are adventurous. You have four kids?

[John Legend]

Sometimes they're not always. Sometimes there's separate things happening for them, simpler meals for them.

[Michelle Norris]

Okay, so you cook on two tracks?

[John Legend]

Yes. And they eat earlier than us, so we can like do a 6:30 meal for them or 6:00 meal for them and then an 8:30 meal for us.

[Michelle Norris]

Did you.

[John Legend]

Your.

[Michelle Norris]

Your dad was a factory worker, and oftentimes when people work are shift workers. They eat at the same time all the time. Was that your household?

[John Legend]

Well, my dad had different shifts, so a lot of times he worked in the day. But there were times when he worked at night. And so he would go in at 4 o'clock and stay till midnight. Or sometimes he would go in at 7 and stay till 4.

[Michelle Norris]

So that's another reason you were cooking. Because he was.

[John Legend]

My dad's not a great cook.

[Michelle Norris]

Really.

[John Legend]

So we basically went from mom to me and there was really not much of a chance that dad was gonna be cooking.

[Michelle Norris]

Okay.

[John Legend]

Yeah. But my brothers can cook. My sister's a really good cook now. But we all figured it out. I was the first one to figure it out. But all of my family, all of my siblings cook pretty well. And my sister's like, really, really good.

[Michelle Norris]

So I wanna get back to that Mac and cheese that you talked about. Your mom's famous Mac and cheese that you said was more like a casserole. We always gift our listeners with a recipe. And we're gonna get the recipe for your moms. Your mama's Mac and cheese.

[John Legend]

I'm gonna try to get the exact one. Cause I make a version of Mac and cheese that doesn't include all the veggies and stuff, but includes some of her influence. And we've put it on Chrissy's website. And that's the one I make every Thanksgiving at Christmas.

[Michelle Norris]

Mac and cheese. People will fight at Christmas over Mac and cheese. There's this viral video that went on. I'm sure you've seen it. Why you messing with Mac and cheese on Thanksgiving? Experiment in July. Don't experiment right now.

[John Legend]

So my mom, they actually. My family was into her Mac and cheese. But she did mess with the Mac and cheese. Like she threw the green.

[Michelle Norris]

It was non traditional. She described it.

[John Legend]

She was in there. Garlic. And she would do like a roux. Some people like to do a roux. Some people just like to put it in and bake it. But she would put it in. So a little slurry with a. Yeah. On the stove first before she put it in the oven. I don't do a roux. I just do put everything in and just let it melt in the oven.

[Michelle Norris]

But where do the green peppers come in?

[John Legend]

I don't know, but it was always there.

[Michelle Norris]

I have not had Mac and cheese with green peppers. I am intrigued.

[John Legend]

Yeah. It was always there when I was growing up. And so it was how I knew that my mother made it. But nobody else at the church made it that way. It was her way.

[Michelle Norris]

And so she must have been very confident.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Michelle Norris]

In her cause.

[John Legend]

And it worked. People loved it.

[Michelle Norris]

Okay. Because to roll up Mac and Cheese.

[John Legend]

Oh, yeah. The little crackers on top, too. I forgot about that. The Ritz crackers. So she really made it like a casserole?

[Michelle Norris]

Yeah, like a gratin. Gratin of Ritz crackers on the top at the end. Just finish it with that?

[John Legend]

Yes.

[Michelle Norris]

Okay. Do you do that too?

[John Legend]

No, I don't. I'm more straight, like, old school. Like, if you go to, like, a soul food restaurant. Mine is more similar to that.

[Michelle Norris]

In a moment where we're kind of divided in a country right now.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Michelle Norris]

Is there an opportunity for maybe us to find a better version of ourselves as individuals and maybe even as a nation?

[John Legend]

I hope so. You know, and we talk about it, and one of the things that disappointed me about Kamala Harris not winning the election was I really love the message that she was giving to the American people at the time. Like, there's more that we have in common and that divides us. And we shouldn't have leaders that try to exacerbate and inflame our differences and divisions. We should have people trying to find ways to bring us together, to solve problems together and help each other. And regardless of who's the president, I hope that we're able to do that with each other in our communities. And a lot of my activism even isn't on the national level. It's on the local level in communities where people just have to figure out how to live together. And I think sometimes denationalizing politics makes it easier for people to see what they have in common. Because when you denationalize politics, you realize, oh, we all need roads where there aren't potholes. We all wanna be safe.

[Michelle Norris]

We're all going to get old and vulnerable.

[John Legend]

Yeah. In our communities, we all want our kids to go to good schools. We all want to live the American dream, be able to afford a home that we can build a family in. There's so many things that we have in common, and a lot of those things play out more on the local level. And when you kind of take the national political scene out of it, it makes easier to have those kinds of conversations. And I'm from Springfield, and we were in the news.

[Michelle Norris]

Yes, you were.

[John Legend]

We were in the news on a national level because of people kind of nationalizing what was going on in my hometown.

[Michelle Norris]

And if you're listening, you don't remember. This is a place where Haitian. It was alleged. It was alleged that Haitian immigrants were eating cats and dogs, which, of course, was not happening.

[John Legend]

But what was happening is that the city had grown tremendously in Opportunities for work after declining for years. You know, we were like a post industrial Midwestern city that was just hemorrhaging jobs and people were leaving. We had peaked at 80,000 people in the 70s, and we were down to 58,000. And so we needed an infusion of opportunity and energy into the community and investment into the community. And the city leaders were able to attract more businesses and manufacturing to the community. And it meant that we were attractive place for people to come. And so these Haitian migrants were able to get immigration status to come here legally during some turmoil, domestic violence.

[Michelle Norris]

That's an important point, that they actually.

[John Legend]

Came here, came here legally, and they had, you know, there was turmoil going on in Haiti, as there tends to be, and they needed a place to go. They needed a refuge. And America's been that refuge for so many people all around the world. And that's part of what makes America amazing. And when people come here, they get the opportunity to live the American dream, and they get the opportunity to provide for their families and build their families here. And that's what was happening with these Haitian migrants. And we have a Republican mayor, a Republican governor in Ohio. And they were being welcoming. They weren't playing up divisions. They were being what local leaders have to do, which is getting stuff done, figuring out how to make it work, and not using these big national issues to divide people, but figuring out how, as a community, are we gonna come together and solve whatever problems we have? And the problems were, oh, they speak a different language. It's harder for them to communicate with doctors and with service providers. So we need to figure out how we can get more bilingual service providers into the town. But everyone in the community was like, okay, we gotta, like, work together. We're gonna figure this out. We might need some additional resources. But what they didn't need was somebody on the national level coming in, spreading hate and fear and division. And as soon as they did that, that's when the bomb threats came. That's when the KKK started marching, and the city's like, just leave us alone.

[Michelle Norris]

But that's also when people stepped up and started eating at Haitian restaurants, standing.

[John Legend]

Up for Haitian communities. That's what I did. I went, I have a song that's. By the time this podcast comes out, it will have just come out with a Haitian artist named Michael Brune. And we had recorded the song last year. But he was so grateful for me for stepping up and saying something about the situation in my hometown with the Haitian migrants. He's like, man, we got to Put this song out and show this unity between Americans and Haitians, black Americans and Haitians, and. And so we released this song. And part of what we did to kind of celebrate releasing it was we went to a Haitian restaurant in my hometown and the food was amazing. I know the food was amazing. And I think food. I think what the conceit of this whole experience is, you know, that food really brings people together and allows people to talk in a certain way.

[Michelle Norris]

That's why they call it comfort food.

[John Legend]

Exactly. And so I loved the act of just going to a Haitian restaurant in my hometown and feeling that connection. And my mom came, my sister came. It was their first time eating there too. And so we were able to bridge that gap and have a conversation right there in my hometown at a new Haitian restaurant. That was delicious. And I feel like if more of us are willing to have those kinds of meals and conversations on those small levels, those local levels, I think we'll all treat each other better and hopefully it'll elevate to our national political discussion being more empathetic and more understanding as well.

[Michelle Norris]

Hope so. I have loved talking to you.

[John Legend]

My pleasure.

[Michelle Norris]

One last quick question for people listening to this conversation and hearing you and hearing particularly about your relationship with your mom. They may be estranged from someone in their family right now. A little bit of advice for them or a word for someone who maybe wants to make their way back to somebody.

[John Legend]

Well, I think part of the breakthrough for me was just growing up and seeing life and understanding that life happens to everybody and that our parents are not immune from that. They're not perfect, they're not going to do everything right. They have frailties and weaknesses and some people are dealing with histories of abuse and things that are much, much harder to recover from. So I can't tell everyone. You have to forgive. You have to show grace to these people because sometimes it might be too hard to come back from whatever they've experienced with that person. But if you see a way to do it, if you see a way to understand why they did the things that they did, to empathize with them, to understand that nobody's perfect and that we all have human frailties. If you allow yourself to see that from their point of view, I think it will help you forgive them and find a way to reconcile. And I love having my mother in our lives. Not just my life, not just my siblings lives, but our kids. Them having a grandmother that they can hug on and love on and learn from is so key. And it's something that I had growing up and I would never want my kids to not have that. And so just for your kids sake, do it. You know, because it's so like extended family is so valuable to kids. I really think it means so much. Like it's cool for them to have their friends at school and your friends in your neighborhood and all that stuff. But there's something about that blood connection that is really nice and my kids feel it every time their cousins come to town, every time we go see them in Ohio. There's something special about it. And whenever you can find a way to reconcile to create that village of family members around them, I think it's great.

[Michelle Norris]

I have loved this conversation. Thank you for inviting us.

[John Legend]

Thank you.

[Michelle Norris]

Into your home.

[John Legend]

Thank you.

[Michelle Norris]

Thank you for looking back over your shoulder and letting us learn about John Legend and also Johnny Stevens. Thanks so much.

[John Legend]

Thank you.

[Michelle Norris]

I just love this conversation and I look forward to listening to the re release of Get Lifted. By the time this episode comes out, that new release will be out in the world and I probably will have already listened several times. I look forward for you to listen too. Now, before we let you go, we want to remind you that we want to hear your stories too too. We want to hear about your memories, your recipes, your thoughts on some of the previous episodes. So you can record yourself on a voice memo and send that to [e-mail] and if you do, your voice might be featured in a future episode. And if you want a chance to make John Legend's Mama's recipe for that Mac and cheese with the green peppers and the Ritz crackers on top, you can find that recipe on my Instagram page, ichellenorris. And you can of course find it and all the recipes from all the other episodes at your Mama's Kitchen dot com. Thanks so much for listening. I'm so glad you're here. I hope you'll come back soon. Because you know us at your Mama's Kitchen, we are always serving up something wonderful. Until then, be bountiful. Your Mama's Kitchen is a production of Higher Ground produced by Sonia Tunn with production assistance by Camila Thurdekoos Sound design and engineering from Andrew Epen, Ryan Kozlowski and Roy Baum. The Dream team executive producers for Higher Ground are Mukta Mohan, Dan Fearman and me, Michelle Norris. The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Editorial and web support for from Melissa Baer and say what media talent booker Angela Peluso. And that's it, everybody. Goodbye. Take care. See you soon. Copyright 2025 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Higher Ground Audio, llc.

Higher Ground.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of youf Mama's Kitchen with Michele Norris and John Legend. For more great conversations, listen to your Mama's Kitchen wherever you get your podcast.

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