← Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
How to Fight Back Against the Republicans’ Anti-Abortion Authoritarianism
01:13:36
Authoritarianism takes many forms - including stripping women of their rights. This summer marked three years since Roe v. Wade was overturned, eradicating the federal constitutional right to abortion and handing states the power to impose extreme restrictions or outright bans. The fallout has been devastating. Women have been hospitalized, dragged into court, and some have died as a direct result of Roe’s reversal. On this week’s Assembly Required, Stacey Abrams is joined by New York Times best-selling author Jessica Valenti to break down the current state of the fight for abortion access, and by Monica Simpson—executive director of the pioneering women of color reproductive justice collective SisterSong—to dig into what’s happening on the frontlines in the South and how reproductive rights are the cornerstone of all other rights. Learn & Do More: BE CURIOUS: Want to dig deeper into the state of abortion access and funding after the fall of Roe v. Wade? Check out Jessica Valenti...
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Welcome to assembly Required. I I'm your host Stacey Abrams. This summer marked three years since Roe v. Wade was overturned, stripping away the federal constitutional right to an abortion and handing power to individual states to heavily restrict or outright ban reproductive rights. The result has been devastating and heartbreaking. Women have been hospitalized, dragged into court and some have died as a direct result of of Roe's reversal. This is the reality in a litany of red states where lawmakers have leveraged anti abortion policy to create chaotic, hostile mazes that block access and put women at risk. Now, it's normal to see this solely as the effect of right wing conservativism, but we must look more closely on the path to authoritarianism. Marginalizing vulnerable populations is step seven of their ten Steps. Despite women comprising more than half of America's population, we are still relegated to second class status by laws that fail to protect our rights or worse, that strip us of the ability to achieve full equality. The evisceration of abortion rights affects health care, education and economic opportunities. And, if the Christian nationalists have their way, the ability of women to be heard in elections too often dismissed as a quote unquote cultural issue like race and sexual orientation. A woman's ability to control her body, like those issues, is absolutely about power, about how we understand the humanity and rights of others. The goal of autocrats is to be the sole decider of who counts and who gets a say. By blocking women from their right to choose, their voices are silenced on an issue that affects nearly every other decision she'll make. This isn't new. Women's rights are declining around the world and nowhere faster than under tyrants. Unfortunately, the United States is no exception. The reality is that the ability to be equal members of society and is contingent upon having access to the entire spectrum of reproductive healthcare. And right wing extremists understand that if you can control a woman's body, you can control her future. In my home state of Georgia, abortion is banned at six weeks of pregnancy before most even know they're pregnant. The law is so extreme that women have already lost their lives. Amber Thurman spent 20 agonizing hours in a Georgia hospital awaiting a vital procedure that had been largely banned under the state's abortion law. By the time she was finally taken into surgery, she had developed sepsis. She died on the operating table. Candy Miller, a mother of three, died at home after complications from taking an FDA approved abortion medication, her family told the coroner. And she never sought medical care, too afraid under the state's restrictive laws to do so. Then there's Adriana Smith. Declared brain dead after a medical emergency, she was forcibly kept on life support for more than three months so the state of Georgia could compel her doctors to deliver her baby. Her family had no legal right to end life support. For over 90 days, they watched their daughter's body tethered to machines until she passed. And while these women and countless others are dying and families are being shattered, Republicans aren't done. They're counting on us to ignore the broader implications and to not understand how these issues are intertwined. We can't fight tyranny and autocracy and authoritarianism without defending a woman's right to choose. That's why this week on Assembly Required, I'm proud to welcome two leaders who are doing essential work to advocate for reproductive rights for all. First up, New York Times bestselling author Jessica Valenti joins me to Break down the current state of the fight for abortion access. Then I'll be joined by Monica Simpson, activist and executive director of the pioneering organization Sistersong, Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective. And together we'll dig into what's happening in the south and what we can do to help. Jessica Valenti, welcome to the show.
- [06:48]
C
Thank you for having me.
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B
Well, I appreciate you being here because one of the reasons I wanted to invite you to join Assembly Required is because you have an incredibly thorough understanding of this very fast moving anti abortion landscape. But. But more importantly, you have the ability to be prescient about the trends and the tactics that are being used to erode our very fundamental rights. So before we dive into those details and I ask you to tell us how to save the future, I'm gonna ask us to take a step back and have you do some table setting for our audience. What is the goal of the anti abortion movement?
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C
That's a big one. That's a big one. I mean, I think it's a really difficult one for people to understand because it seems so counterintuitive. If you want to stop abortion, why are they going after birth control? Right. Like everything they do feels a little off. And I think it's only when people start to understand that this is not really about abortion, but about putting women back in their place, about reinforcing traditional gender norms, reinforcing the traditional gender binary. That is the ultimate goal, really. To strip women of political power, cultural power, getting us out of the public sphere, pushing us back into the home. It really is sort of that distressing and that simple.
- [08:17]
B
So let's talk about that. Who does and who does not have access to legal abortion right now? Because we have this confusing patchwork of laws post Roe. And the current landscape is confusing to say the least. So who has rights, who doesn't have rights and who's in danger?
- [08:39]
C
That's, you know, that is also one a difficult one to answer because it is honestly changing every day, sort of broadly. I'd say, you know, about 20 states have abortion bans, abortion restrictions, but even the states that have supposedly protected abortion rights, right? Look at a state like Missouri where voters passed Amendment 3, which codified abortion rights into the state constitution. People are still having a hard time getting abortions there because of the, the Republican pushback and this insistence on, on overriding the will of voters. So what can be really challenging for people, I think, is that there's what the law says and then there's what reality is for people on the ground. Right? Maybe there's legal abortion one day, maybe it's, it's not legal the next day. Maybe you can't afford abortion regardless of, of what the law says. And so who gets to access abortion is dependent on so many factors. Geography is one of them, money is another. There are all sorts of moving parts, unfortunately. And so I always recommend to people, if they have questions about their own access to rights, there are a bunch of terrific maps that places like the center for Reproductive Rights does. But what I think is most important to know is that even if you live in a state where abortion is illegal, there are groups in your state, there are groups around the country that will help you get an abortion no matter where you live and no matter what your financial situation is. Right. There are amazing organizations that are out there working on a sliding scale to make sure that people get abortion medication shipped to them to help people get out of state for the care that they need. And so again, it's sort of what the law says and what's possible and what we can help make possible.
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B
And I love the point that you made at the end about what can we help make possible. You just did, I think, an exceptional job of laying out other resources. But you are one of those resources. You write a daily newsletter called Abortion Every Day and you cover the latest developments at both the federal and the state level. Now, we're recording this on Monday morning, which means it's still early for major updates. But can you recap what happened last week and share what you're watching for this week?
- [11:06]
C
I think what unfortunately is sort of ongoing this summer, I'll say, is that the attacks on abortion pills specifically have really ramped up. Right. Republicans know that this is the primary way that people are getting abortions. More than half of abortions in the US Are done using medication. And right now, one in four abortions are done using telehealth. And that is true across the country. And so, you know, conservative lawmakers, anti abortion activists, know that women in states, pregnant people in states with abortion bans are still able to access care care by getting those pills shipped to them. And so this has really become their primary target. We're seeing lots of state legislation trying to curb that, trying to create a culture of fear so people don't reach out to these resources for help. We're seeing a lot of fake studies, just like complete nonsense research, claiming that abortion medication, which has been around for 25 years, FDA approved for 25 years and been used safely, that it's somehow unsafe, that it's Dangerous. They're really coming at abortion pills from all angles. They see it as their primary number one target.
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B
I think it's critical that we dig in a little bit more on what you said. Too often we separate these into distinct attacks, but this is a multifaceted, intertwined intention to overthrow what we are and what we need. And so I want to talk a little bit about the ideological foundation for the anti abortion agenda, which is connected to pro authoritarianism. And it's all crucial for us understanding the movement's desired outcomes. On the show we've dissected Christian nationalism, pronatalism and Project 2025. And one of my goals is to help listeners connect the dots between these movements and see the broader intention they have a laser focus on returning to traditional gender roles, including less participation by women in the body politic. Shut us up, you shut us down. We can't do anything. And this is accomplished in part by restricting reproductive healthcare access. So what do these intersecting ideological attacks tell us about abortion access and what policies are you seeing the administration pursue?
- [13:37]
C
Yeah, it's a great question and it's something I think we should talk about more often because I think there's so much overwhelm on the pro choice side and there's so much upset about how bad things are on the ground. And we need to understand that it took them a very, very long time to get, get us here and so it's going to take us a long time to fight back effectively. Right. They have spent 50 years building power on the ground through crisis pregnancy centers, stacking the courts, gerrymandering. They have built so much power, cultural and political over the last few decades and really chipping away at abortion rights and to get to that end goal of overturning Roe. And so I think that it's really important that we remember how much money, time, energy went into this ultimate goal for them and really understand that it is going to take us a while. Right. And sort of sit with that and get comfortable with that and you know, feel okay with not having wins every day and really start to think about that long term goal and shift, shift our mindset a little bit, which is difficult.
- [14:57]
B
Part of the reason I think it's important it's not about abortion. This is not some moralistic crusade. This is about power and what power is going to be accrued, what power has been accrued and what power will continue to be accrued. Using abortion as the proxy, and you referenced it as both cultural and political. Can, can you go a little bit deeper on that.
- [15:24]
C
Sure. I mean, I think one of the best examples of, and I'm writing a column about this right now, is the sort of that cultural push that they're doing in tandem to all of these political fights to get women back in the home, young women specifically. Right. They're, you know, spreading this sort of trad wife propaganda that you will be happier and healthier if things went back to the way that they were in the 50s and 60s, presenting this very whitewashed version of what that looks like. And at the same time that they're sort of pushing this through TikToks and Pinterest and these very sanitized images, they also have this really insidious cultural campaign telling young women that birth control is bad for them. Right. Saying it's poor poison, it's not natural, co opting a lot of feminist rhetoric to do that, saying the medical establishment doesn't listen to you, so you should, you should get off birth control. And again, it's all part of this connected agenda, this connected plan. What better way to raise the next generation of young women for conservatives than to tell them it's actually a great thing that these rights have been stripped away? Right. And with birth control specifically, they're really laying the groundwork for increasing attacks on contraception. They want young women to feel like birth control is dangerous, contraception is dangerous. And so when Republicans start to more explicitly restrict those things that there won't be quite as much backlash.
- [17:06]
B
Is it working?
- [17:08]
C
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately it is. It really is. You know, the, the anti birth control sentiment specifically with hormonal birth control is really troubling. I do think that Republicans know enough not to. They're not going to go out and pass a law that says birth control is illegal, right? Not yet, but they're going to do the same chipping away approach that they did with abortion rights where they're, you know, and they've already started to do this, making it harder for minors to get, they're going to make it harder for teenagers to get first. Then they're going to say it's okay for employers not to cover contraception, it's okay for pharmacists not to refill your birth control prescription. Right. They don't need a law that says this thing is illegal. They just need to make it impossible to get. And they need to make sure that that next generation is not as outraged as they should be.
- [18:02]
B
I guess I have a two part question then. One, do funders understand what is happening? Are they investing in the antithesis to what we watch these anti abortion, anti women's rights groups do. And then the corollary is how are organizations who are committed to this fight, how are they navigating this moment?
- [18:28]
C
Yeah, you know, I think yes, pro choice organizations are very aware that this is happening. I think that they're very concerned about it. I think that they are trying to think about what to do. But abortion rights organizations are really stretched thin. Right. And, and that's the point. That's the point of all of these laws. Everyone is just trying to get to the next day. Everyone is just trying to make sure that the people in their community can get the abortion care that they, that they need. I think that we are really just trying to through the day, make it through the week with, with funders. I think funders are starting to, to understand that as well. I hope. I, I'd like to think so. I think that there's just some debate about what the best way to, to do that is right when it comes to that cultural push again, I think a lot of people are really interested in young men and young men's votes and maybe are not paying as much attention to really like honing in on that strongest base of support.
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Part of the point of this show is to give people the big picture and then break it down into the smaller component pieces so it feels less overwhelming and more, you know, defeatable. You can, you can defeat the evil if you can understand it. It's hard to do it when it's everything everywhere all at once. And all of that is bad. But you can't fight back if you don't understand the different facets. And what you have done so effectively over the years is really help break things down. So I want to take some time with you right now and walk through some of the tactics and you've alluded to several of them. But I want to dive a little deeper because I see the anti abortion movement as directly connected to and one of the engines for the pro authoritarian movement. I do not see these things as separate and you use the pseudo morality of anti abortion to create the anti democratic, pro authoritarian language that you need and the behaviors. So you know this started with the targeting of abortion providers and others who support attempting to get an abortion. Then you see Georgia in 2019 passing HB 481 and then Texas adopted Senate Bill 8 in 2021, before Roe v. Wade was overturned. And these were nearly identical bills that, you know, were very early harbingers of what we currently face across the country, which is abortion banned after six weeks before most know they're pregnant. And then Texas took it a step further because that's what Texas does. And they incentivized citizens to enforce the ban by allowing them to sue anyone who, quote, aids and abets an abortion. We're turning Americans into vigilantes, using reproductive rights as the access point. Talk about how you see that playing out.
- [24:28]
C
Yeah, you know, it's. I've written about this as snitch culture. It's anti abortion snitch culture. Right? They are. And it's. What's so frustrating about this is that they continue to call themselves, you know, pro family. When you're literally trying to have family members turn on each other, incentivizing community members turning on each other. It is so transparently disgusting and anti family. I think there's sort of a good news, bad news situation about it. Right. The bad news is obvious. We see what they're doing. This is about creating a culture of fear where even though someone in Texas could have abortion medication shipped to them from out of state, they're afraid. They're afraid that someone they know is going to turn them in. They're afraid that their friend who helped them get abortion pills is going to be sued. There is this real terror campaign against people seeking abortions and against anyone who might help those people who are seeking abortions. The good news is that they're doing that for a reason. They're doing that because they understand the power of community support. They understand that abortion rights activists, people who care about this issue, are not going to let the people that they care about, the people in their communities, go without the care that they need. They, you know, they really do understand that people are getting abortions regardless of bans. I mean, really, when you look at it, it's been three years since Roe was overturned. The abortion rate has not gone down, the abortion rate has gone up. Right. These abortion bans are not successful at reducing abortions. What they are doing is increasing suffering, increasing death, increasing sepsis rates. Right. Increasing infant mortality. And so there's no debate about what these laws actually do. And so something like snitch culture, something like these bounty hunter mandates are there purely to terrorize people and to make us too afraid to help each other. I'm hoping. I don't think that that's going to happen. I think people want abortions and they're going to get them. And there's always going to be people who, who help them. Unfortunately, obviously they do work with some people. There are going to be people who are too afraid to get the care that they need, too afraid to leave the state to get the care that they need. But there's always going to be activists in every one of these states who are there to help no matter what the law says.
- [27:04]
B
Let's talk about Jonathan Mitchell and his goals. So can you talk about Mr. Mitchell in the context of the Comstock act and how they're targeting abortion pills and just the rest of the evil that he is trying to wreak across the.
- [27:21]
C
U.S. yeah, so, so Jonathan Mitchell is one of the best known anti abortion attorneys in the country. He was the architect of Texas's bounty hunter mandate. He is bringing all sorts of lawsuits forward in the hopes of getting the Comstock act to the Supreme Court. For those who don't know, the Comstock act is this, you know, 150-year-old zombie law that bans the, the shipping of obscene materials, which includes abortion medication, tools used in abortion. And so essentially they want to make it a federal crime to ship abortion pills anywhere, right? Not just into anti abortion states, but to ship abortion pills or supplies used for abortion anywhere. And so Jonathan Mitchell has been just starting all of these lawsuits in the hopes that he can take this issue through the courts. He's also the, the guy who's been sort of going town to town or he has a proxy who goes town to town to local city councils in pro choice and in anti choice states, passing local Comstock acts, passing local anti abortion ordinances. It's really distressing, it's really distressing to see he's most recently he has, has brought a couple of lawsuits against abortion providers. He's best known for representing abusive men who, you know, sue because they're mad about their partners or ex partners abortions that they got without their permission. It's, it's just as bad. Like he's pretty close to like a cartoon, right? Like comic book villain. He really, really is that bad. And you know, he's even behind right now, I'll be writing this week. He's behind the sort of beefing up of this bounty hunter mandate in Texas that they're trying to pass in this special session. And this is a guy who doesn't even live in Texas. Right. He lives in Washington. And yet somehow he's pulling the strings of Texas Republicans. We could have a whole show about this guy is the short version.
- [29:41]
B
Well, we know that part of what is aiding his crusade or crusade is giving him too much credit. Part of what is aiding his villainy and the behaviors of so many is this modern day vast public and private surveillance apparatus that allows anti abortion enforcement to move at a speed that has never been true before. And we know that that is concomitant with social media actually harming shared good information, that Instagram and Facebook have blocked posts that are related to information about obtaining abortion pills. And we know that reproductive health advocates have had their posts suppressed for years. Talk a bit about how technology is now being not just weaponized by, but suborning the behavior of modern day anti abortion enforcement.
- [30:39]
C
For a very long time, abortion content has been suppressed on various social media platforms. But since Trump took office, we have seen that increase. We're seeing posts and, and profiles specifically that help people get abortion pills taken down, suppressed, banned, sometimes blurred out. It's, it's a, it's a really chilling attack on, on free speech. And if it's not being done by, you know, these social media platforms, these social media companies, Republicans are trying to pass laws that attack that right to free speech as well. One of the ways they're doing that is passing what they're calling anti trafficking laws. Right. Idaho and Tennessee both passed these laws that they claim will stop predators from transporting teenagers across state lines for abortions. In reality, the way they wrote the law, it would make it illegal for a grandmother, a family friend, an aunt, or to even send a teenager a text with the URL of an abortion clinic or lend that teenager money so that they could leave the state for an abortion. And that's part of what I mean when I say they're coming at this from all sides. They are throwing everything that they can at the wall when it comes to certainly stopping abortion pills specifically, but putting that chilling effect on c speech and again, making us too afraid to help each other.
- [32:16]
B
And I want to stay there for a second because what you've just said is central to the authoritarian playbook. You use different facets of lived experience to put a chilling effect on speech. You use different facets of daily life to make people turn on each other. We tend to think about authoritarian overthrow in the black and white Nazi images, but we forget that it feels very real and very current. And it doesn't feel like you're suborning authoritarianism. It feels like, well, you're just telling somebody what they shouldn't do or you're just providing some extra information Talk a bit about how we practice better behavior where abortion isn't. We don't allow abortion rights to be used as a tool for overthrowing democracy.
- [33:16]
C
Yeah, it's. It's so incredibly important. And I'm so glad that you're thinking about this in terms of democracy. It's something that I write a lot about. It's something that is just so present that I don't see enough people talking about, about the links between the attacks on democracy and attacks on abortion rights. All you need to do is look at what's happened with all of the pro choice ballot measures and all of the various ways that Republicans have tried to prevent voters from having a say on this issue or overturn the will of voters on this issue. I think one of the most important things that we can do is be talking about this and to, and to not be afraid and to. And to demand that our cultural institutions as well as our political institutions be not afraid with us. Right. One of the things I'm really concerned about, that I'm thinking a lot about right now is the role that media plays in all of this and the, and sort of like the fear that they help to instill still when they present this issue as a both sides thing when, when abortion rights is presented as well. Half the country thinks this and half the country thinks that that's not the case. And that hasn't been the case for decades. Abortion is overwhelmingly supported by the majority of Americans. 81% of Americans don't want the government involved in abortion at all. But that is not something that you would necessarily know if you are reading mainstream media coverage of abortion instead of, you're getting, well, this person believes this and this person believes that. And, you know, people who are promoting fake science are getting equal column inches to those who are telling the truth. And I really do think that that sort of erasure of the fact that we are in the majority helps to instill that fear. Right. It makes people forget that no matter what these laws say, no matter what this, you know what, no matter what these lawmakers are doing, we're in the majority. This is a democracy issue. This is about a small group of extremist legislators imposing their will on the vast majority of voters who do not want these bans.
- [35:32]
B
So what would a effective proactive strategy look like if we wanted to take advantage of the 81% and expand abortion access? If we wanted to take, take advantage of the general belief that most people don't want to live in an authoritarian regime, what should we be doing and who should be doing it?
- [35:58]
C
Yeah, it's a great question. I think some pro choice states have already started to do excellent work with protecting abortion providers through shield laws, right? Making clear that they are not going to let anti abortion states bully them. They're not going to allow for the extradition of abortion providers. We need to make abortion more affordable and accessible. I would love to see more pro choice states and some city councils have started to do this. I would love to see more pro choice cities and states create really massive abortion funds so that affordability is not such an issue, both for folks who live in the state and for folks who are coming from out of state state to get care. Some places, some states have done that. Maryland has done a great job of that. I think most of all though that the thing that continues to be on my mind if we want to take advantage of just how great that support is, is we need to start talking about abortion in a more positive way. Right. I think that there is still this tendency among Democrats to lean into that safe, legal and rare rhetoric to present abortion as it's a difficult choice that no one wants to make. It's a terrible, it's not always, it really isn't right. Abortion is a moral positive good. We need to start talking about it as such. And I think that we need to start supporting abortion throughout pregnancy and stop putting these medically arbitrary restrictions on abortion. Right. When we buy into language about fetal viability, which is not a medical, medical standard, it's a made up legal standard. When we do that, we are falling victim to that anti abortion stigma. And so I think that if we really want to make meaningful change, we need to come at this in a proactive way, in an abortion positive way. Stop working within the conservative framework that asks the question when do Americans want abortion banned? And ask do Americans want abortion banned ever? And the answer overwhelmingly is that they do not.
- [38:18]
B
I'm going to take a point of editorial privilege. So I recently published a book called Code of Justice and I look at the intersection of health care and AI and dei. And one of the reasons I use AI to talk about health care is it's one of those places where we have universal belief that your health care should be good. But I wanted to really investigate how diversity, equity and inclusion, how DEI is weaponized against us. And you just spoke to it. This tendency to demonize our language. And we spend so much time trying to justify our existence to those who despise the basic foundational belief systems we twist ourselves into these pretzels of less than trying to convince our enemies that we are worthy of some existence.
- [39:08]
C
And.
- [39:09]
B
And we saw that happen with abortion. We see it happening with dei. Because my question is, which part don't you like, the diversity part, the equity part, or the inclusion part? But on the left, on the side of right, we spend so much of our time arguing against ourselves, trying to appease those who will never agree with us. And one of the reasons this comes up for me is that as we think about data erasure, as we think about the next wave of attack, the executive order, and more importantly, the fact that the federal government has said it will not purchase AI systems that are trained on DEI has a direct connection to abortion rights, because abortion is considered dei. It is about how women navigate the world. And if AI, if artificial intelligence and all of the data it gathers and cannot be trained to understand what you just articulated about the necessity and validity of abortion, we will have entire systems that are operational that do not think about the needs of women, do not think about the needs of reproductive care. So having terrified you, talk to me about why this matters so much.
- [40:30]
C
So much. But I mean, I think between AI, I think of it when I think about AI specifically, and to me, it's about the systems, right? It's about those systems. It's about language, about what is framing our world views, right? And the way that we navigate through the world, whether it's AI or what is available to our kids in libraries, the way that we talk about abortion on television, the way that Democrats talk, talk about abortion when they're proposing legislation, the kind of legislation that we, that we're proposing. To me, it all comes back to language and this fear of sort of creating our own right. Like there is this tendency just to operate within the systems that have already been given to us and be constantly on the defensive and be constantly reactive to what conservatives are doing. And it just feels like we have this moment, we have this opportunity. Roe being overturned has been awful. We have this opportunity to build something bigger and better, whether it's legislatively, culturally, whether it's the way we think about AI, the way that we think about digital privacy, the way that we think about how we teach our kids. There is this opportunity here, and we can choose to think of it that way, or we can just continue to be reactive and adopt this framework that caters to people who fundamentally do not see us as human beings. I know which one I would rather choose. I think it's just a matter of getting everyone else on board.
- [42:20]
B
Okay, so Jessica, last question on assembly required. We give homework. How can our listeners support the fight for abortion access?
- [42:30]
C
There are so many different things that people can do to support abortion access and I would say start in your own community and see what's going on there. See what local abortion funds are up to, what kind of help that they need. Do they need volunteers? Do they need fundraising? You can look to see what's going on with your city council. You can see, see what is being taught in your kids school, even if it's a college, right? Is, do you live in a pro choice state? Does your, does the local universities make abortion medication available? Go to all of those different specific places. They could all absolutely use your help. I think one of the best things though that we can do is to stay informed and is to understand exactly what's going on and to not feel, feel so overwhelmed. I know that's a tall order. It's hard, right? The overwhelm is very much the point. That's what they're trying to do. But there are ways to fight back, to win in small ways every day, to keep that bigger picture in mind and just continue to talk about it. I think one of the things that worries me is that in this moment of political overwhelm and there's so much happening, issues that disproportionately impact women, impact marginalized groups, tend to be the issues that get kicked to the side. It tends to be the issue that we're told to forego in service of the greater good or the big tent. Now is the time for us to not allow that to happen, to make clear that abortion rights has been and is a winning issue and that if there was ever a time to really double and triple down on it, it's now.
- [44:14]
B
Jessica Valenti, thank you so much for joining us here on Assembly Required.
- [44:19]
C
Thank you.
- [44:23]
A
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- [45:39]
E
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- [46:12]
B
Monica Simpson, thank you so much for joining me here on Assembly Required.
- [46:16]
D
Thank you so much for having me. It is truly an honor.
- [46:19]
B
So Monica, you and I are old friends and I am a huge fan of your work and I want other people to understand what it is you do. So you're the executive director of SisterSong, which is a Southern based national women of color reproductive justice collective. The mission of Sistersong is centering reproductive justice as a form of not just resistance but advancement. Can you talk about what reproductive justice means? What are its origins, and how does that inform the work that you do every day?
- [46:57]
D
Sure. So I am really grateful to call Reproductive justice, this movement, my political home. And the thing that makes this movement so powerful is that it's a movement and a framework. And this framework was created by black women, 12 of them in 1994. And interestingly enough, at that time, in 1994, there's probably a lot that you could probably do a whole podcast on just that year alone. But it was also the height of health care reform in this country under the Clinton administration. And the conversations that were brewing about what is it going to look like to transform health care in this country was moving in so many different directions. And what black women were starting to understand was that these conversations were moving in silos without them, that they wanted to make sure that the needs of their communities were centered in this conversation and that the fight for reproductive health and rights was not seen as something outside of the larger conversation of health care in this country. And so they organized because that's what black women do when you get them in a room together. And they talked about what it would mean for them to move in a more intersectional way, what it would mean for them to bring a more human rights approach to thinking about health care in this country. And these women that came together named themselves women of African Descent for reproductive justice, and we have the term being born. And these women, when they organize, they put a call to action to Congress that basically said, if you're going to talk about health care in this country, you're going to listen to black women, you're going to trust our expertise of understanding what is most needed for our communities, and you're not going to push reproductive health care and namely abortion right out of this conversation that continues to be so highly just, you know, fought in this country for so, so long. And so by them doing that, they created a framework that is built on intersectionality and understanding that all of the fights for social justice that we are so committed to in this country, that they are all connected. And so there's four points of the reproductive justice framework, as Sister Song defines it is the human right for every individual to be able to have the children that we want in the ways that we want, and to be able to prevent and end pregnancies without shame, but with dignity to be able to parent the children that we have in healthy and safe environments. And ultimately, this is a movement built on the human rights of bodily autonomy. What I love about this framework and this movement is that it gives us the ability to work with birth workers and midwives, as well as folks who are on the cutting edge of science and technology. When we think about IVF and we think about contraception, we. When we think about those who are fighting for parenting justice in this country and those who have historically been pushed to the margins, our queer and trans communities, it brings us all together in a space to be able to see how our work and how our ability to be able to be free in this country, how it's all connected.
- [49:55]
B
Well, I just spoke with Jessica Valenti, who gave us a very thorough rundown of the attacks on abortion access across the country, and you have just echoed part of her narrative, which is that we have to stop talking about abortion access and reproductive health from a defensive crouch, that this is about human rights, it's about social justice. It's also about productivity and citizenship. Can you talk about how you see the current narrative of abortion access being weaponized, and more importantly, how should it be framed instead?
- [50:35]
D
Yeah, it's really. It's interesting the way that we have seen abortion, the narrative of abortion like, really shift over the years. And how it's become a wedge issue in communities, how it's been used as a weapon is. It's fascinating to say the least. But the way that they're shaping and talking about abortion right now is as if it's in a vacuum, as if it's not a part of healthcare, as if it's not a way in which we should be able to work and be in private conversation with health care providers about. They're trying to extrapolate it and pull it and make it this political issue that they can use as a pawn in their play for whatever they're trying to move in this very harmful agenda that continues to push forward in this country. What I think is important to understand about abortion right now is one, it is healthcare. Two, it is important for us to understand the ways in which abortion shows up differently across different communities, too. Right. I think that's something that is also important to name in this moment. When we think about the way that abortion has been used, especially around communities of color. It's been used as very attack. As an attack. And I remember back in 2010, which, again, was around the time that I started to enter into this movement more directly, we saw them using abortion, especially as it pertains to black people, as this wedge issue in. And we saw billboards in Georgia that said, the most dangerous place for an African American child is in the mother's womb. Now, that's a very intentional message, right? It is about creating one side versus another, and it's pitting people against each other. And that's how they're using abortion in this moment. And so they're taking away what abortion is, which is healthcare, and they're trying to use it as this cultural weapon that really divides communities. And ultimately, it's about trying to really weaken our collective power. Because so many of the polls and there's so much research out there that says that people truly believe across religion, across age, across race, that abortion should be between an individual and their healthcare provider at the end of the day. And so whether a person personally believes this or not, people are. It's across the board that folks really believe that this should be a personal decision, that one. That one should make with their own healthcare provider. But. But what's unfortunate is that we're not leaning into the. Our opposition. They're not leaning into what's true. They're trying to create their own narrative, right? But it is like this thing to be demonized, this thing to be weaponized, and that is where the work of reproductive justice has really been trying to create new pathways of understanding for communities around why this fight for abortion is inextricably linked to all of our fight for freedom, all of the different issue areas. And more important, as I think about this, as a black woman, in particular in the South, I think about how this fight for abortion and bodily autonomy is directly linked to our fight for black liberation.
- [53:26]
B
You mentioned the eugenics bill that was moving through the state legislature in 2010. That's actually how you and I met. I was serving on the committee of purview, and we were able to defeat that bill. It was a bill that tried to pit black women or pit everyone else against black women. And your voice was so resonant and so important. But you also just mentioned the word, I think that is so deeply embedded in this fight, which is, this is about power. I've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks and intend to spend as much time as possible making certain that people understand the intersections of these issues, that authoritarianism is about power, who has it, who, who doesn't. And the work of Sister Song has really always been focused on how you get access to power for the most people. And back in 2024, you wrote this very powerful essay just months before the election, arguing that black women would bear the harshest consequence for losing abortion rights. Again, that was about stripping us of our power. Can you talk about the fight that you see and what it looks like on the ground in Georgia and across the South?
- [54:41]
D
Yeah, yeah, we warned them. And we have been saying this for a very long time. Right. The more that you restrict, deny access, that those who have historically been pushed to the margins are the ones that are going to suffer the most. And we knew that when we saw this crazy sweep of abortion bans, you know, coming across this country, we knew who was going to be hurt first, and we knew it was going to be black women. And, you know, unfortunately, that became true as we think about what has happened here in my home state, our state, our home state of Georgia, where we have seen now three black women come up against very dire, extreme, horrible outcomes because of this abortion ban. We first heard about Amber Nicole Thurman and Candy Miller, right, And their inability to be able to get the abortion that they needed and how that ultimately led to the end of their life. And we also heard of Adriana Smith, right, because of this abortion ban being put in a horrible position and her family being put in a position that was just so emotionally harmful. Right. In terms of her particular situation of being left on life support. Right. But what the through line of all of the stories of these three black women that have, you know, that have been elevated to the media is that they were denied their ability to be able to make their own decisions about their bodies. That's what's at the core of this. And what is also clear is that we have a health care system that unfortunately failed them all. And when we think about Georgia as it sits right now, we're sitting in a state where over half the counties in this state do not have OB GYNs, that we're sitting in a maternal health, maternal health desert, right? In this state, we also have not expanded Medicaid. So hundreds of thousands of people are also falling through the cracks just for general health care in this country. And when you continue to compound the economics of a thing and the social conditions of a thing, it continues to make a very clear picture that it is very dangerous to be pregnant in the state of Georgia. We have seen how black women and people of color have been the ones who have been affected by this the most. So if we are thinking about, like, what the end game here is, right? We know that there is a deep desire by so many who are in power right now to have a national abortion ban. And we know that that is rooted in what you said, in power and being able to control the bodies, therefore the futures of individuals. Then we are looking at a very grim picture that requires us to think more innovatively, more creatively, more intersectionally about how we fight this fight together.
- [57:26]
B
I want to take a step back. Sister Song uses language as a way to organize and convene, but we know that language is always leveraged against communities. Can you talk about what the reproductive justice framework tells us about how abortion bans impact those who are trans and non binary?
- [57:50]
D
Absolutely. So when we think about the gender part of this is one that we are very committed to, right? We do not want to exclude our queer, transgender, nonconforming folks who are also seeking care and who absolutely also need access to abortion care. And the way that we talk about this in our language is using that human rights frame that gives us the ability to talk about how all people deserve this human right to be able to end their pregnancies without shame, but with dignity. And we are very intentional about making sure that those stories that we uplift those folks who are helping us organize and mobilize within those communities, that they are making sure that we are creating ways and pathways for folks to see themselves reflected in that work, because that's the most important part of this work, when we talk about narrative shift, is that people have to see themselves reflected. And so what Sistersong is committed to doing, and so many RJ organizations are committed to doing across this country, is making sure that queer and trans representation is in our organizations. They are a part of the organizing strategies that we are developing, and we're making sure that those narratives are being led by the communities that they are a part of. And that is how we're making. That's how we're bridging that gap. I am a woman that is a proud black, queer woman born and raised in the South. And to be in this position right now at this time in history, I don't take that lightly, by any means. Right. To be a black, queer woman leading a national reproductive justice organization. And so, for me, this is not just about creating the best strategies for ensuring that people see themselves reflected. It is deeply personal to me, too.
- [59:31]
B
Well, in 2023, I had the very august privilege of. Of authoring the article that celebrated your inclusion on Time's list of the 100 most influential people of the year. And part of what I spotlighted was the way you do use language to reset the narrative and understanding of reproductive rights and reproductive justice. Talk a bit more about what you want our audience to do when they reframe language. How should they be talking about these issues?
- [60:04]
D
Yeah, I think it's important we have a phrase in Sistersong, as we do trainings all across this country and helping to educate the masses on what reproductive justice is. And we start every training off with this phrase that we all have a story to tell. Right. And I think the best way to help people understand what reproductive justice is and to help us reframe that is by being deeply rooted in your own personal story and understanding where in your story you have seen injustice. Right. And being able to put voice to that from a personal perspective. And so we've been helping other folks understand what their own reproductive justice stories are, and that has been helping us really shape and frame this conversation differently. The other ways that we have been doing that, too, is connecting reproductive justice to cultural moments that help people understand what reproductive justice looks like in real time. We've been using one of our campaigns, the Trust Black Women campaign that we started in 2010 because of the racist billboards Right. In Georgia, as a way to break deeply into black communities that may have been on the periphery of these issues and not seeing themselves directly connected to it. And so we are showing up at Essence, we are showing up in, you know, within churches. We are showing up in the spaces. We know where our folks are gathering, and we're helping to draw the connections to their real lives and the moments that we are in. And so we have made a commitment at Sistersong to be on the forefront of those types of strategies and making those connections, because ultimately, we have to make sure that we are meeting our people where they are and that we are making sure that our folks see themselves reflected in this work.
- [61:44]
B
You know, Sister Song fought to prevent Georgia's six week abortion ban from taking effect. You served as the lead plaintiff in challenging HB 481. And even though the lawsuit wasn't successful, I believe, as I think you do, that the fight was what matters. Can you talk a bit, both from a current perspective, but also historical perspective of why it matters that we fight these things in the courts, even if we don't get the judgment that we believe we deserve?
- [62:15]
D
Yeah. I will start by saying first that, you know, we're gonna continue to use every tool in the toolbox to do everything possible to get this ban off the books. And that is just what Sistersong was committed to. It is what the movement is committed to. We now have seen the impact of this ban and the loss of life that it has created. And so we are seeing more of our community rise up and show up for these issues, which I think is giving us more momentum that we're going to continue to take into the State House and again, continue to move deeper into our communities to create more organizing power. But what makes this fight so important? Right. When thinking about whether or not we would win or not? Because we did get asked that question as an organization that decided to put themselves at the forefront of this case, they're like, wait, you're not a service provider? What does this mean? What are you all really doing? And we came in as a lead plaintiff in this case in the beginning because we were standing up for our members, those folks who are directly impacted Georgians. Right. And so that was what we stood firm on, and we stood ten toes down on. This is for our people. But it was also a bit of a culture shift for us. Right. Because a lot of these different fights across different states we saw in Mississippi, we've seen in so many other Southern states. Right. That these court cases are usually. They have a playbook that they go by. Right. It's the service providers who, rightfully so, are going for their patients. And there's a way that they continue to move through those processes. And we've seen victories, right? So we're not going to take away from that. But in Georgia, this was an opportunity for us to switch the game up a little bit. I think one media outlet called our legal documentation like a feminist manifesto. It was an opportunity for us to insert new language. It was an opportunity for us to insert a different strategy. Right. That I think is one that we're going to be able to build on for years to come. Right. It was helping to set up our advocacy organizations in a different way. And it was also creating an opportunity for us to build even more deeply with our service providing partners. Right? And so because of that, we not only had the opportunity for our. For the brilliant legal teams at ACLU and all the others, right, to move the legal side of things. We got to move the narrative, right? We got to talk about how these abortion bans are white supremacists. We got to about, talk, talk about the ways in which we knew who would be most impacted by this. And we got to create a powerful organizing strategy that went along with the legal fight. And that, to me, is a major win. And we got to think about the ways that we combine these things together. As we're thinking about this fight that we're currently in and the fights that are going to be ahead, we got to start thinking about how we join strategies in ways that. That allow us to move message, policy, legal stuff all at the same time, because they're coming at us from all different directions. And we got to do the same with even more power.
- [65:10]
B
I want you to do that one more time for the people in the back. But no, I think that's exactly right. So let's assume that you were to be the architect of a new law that enshrines the federal right to abortion. What would you include to ensure that everyone has access to and can get an abortion?
- [65:32]
D
Oh, my goodness, this is such a beautiful day to dream in a way that, you know, we don't get to do too often. So I appreciate it. So I think about, as I'm thinking about how to set this up, I'm thinking about all the ways that we fought this fight so far. Right. We've talked about the lack of access. In particular, thinking about, you know, states like Mississippi that had one abortion clinic and different things like that. Right. So if we're thinking about this law, it's like, I'm thinking about access, I'm thinking about gender, and how we want to make sure that all people who need access to abortion is able to do that with the gender affirming care that's necessary. I'm thinking about how do we also reduce stigma at the same time? It's like all these things are rushing in to think about this. But I think ultimately for me to think about this type of law that is desperately needed, especially now that we have seen the fall of Roe. It is about creating a law that gives the language that is the most expansive possible to ensure that no one is left behind.
- [66:36]
B
Okay, so, Monica, we give our, our listeners get homework. They know that's their job. So what do you want our audience to know about the ways they can get involved in the fight for abortion, access for reproductive justice and beyond our elections? What are the things we can be doing now to make it possible to win next?
- [66:58]
D
Yeah, I think it's really important right now for us to take back the narrative. Right. That's my main thing. And that is going to require so many more folks getting connected to their own stories, finding power in those stories and to the best of our ability and for those who feel like they are ready to, for more folks to be on the front line sharing those stories to help really reduce the stigma and make it clear and that abortion is healthcare. At the end of the day, that is what we need to do. Number two, I think it's gonna be really important right now for us to build more deeply at the intersections. Right. I think that because of this last election in particular and the fall of Roe in the ways that it happened, it did open the door for deeper collaboration, but it's gonna take more of that. So if your value set in the ways that you show up is around voting rights or the environment or, you know, economics, whatever those things are, you need to find your way to making that connection to reproductive justice and seeing how all of these things are inextricably linked. I think that, you know, I've said to people all the time, like, I want to be able to live in a world where I'm able to make my own decisions about my body, my family and my future. And I want to be able to have a livable wage and I want to be able to vote and have it be counted and protected, and I want to be able to breathe clean air and drink water that is not going to harm me. That is how we all have to think, think in this moment. So our charge is to help people understand how to live an intersectional life, how to find those connections and the ways that they do and to find your political home. And in that political home. I mean, the doors of the reproductive justice movement are open. We need you here. We need folks to be committed to this. But I also believe that if your home is somewhere else, then we want to make sure that we are connecting these issues to why this fight for reproductive justice cannot be seen as a side item on the plate for liberation. It needs to be centered in the middle of that bad boy. So that's what we need for people to do. Get activated by your own story. Find power in that, share that more, Help us bring down the stigma. Make sure that you are finding your work at the intersections and ultimately make your way to this movement's work. We need organizers on the ground, every single place that we can get them. And so this is an opportunity for everyone to be active in this moment. I've been sitting with so many of my comrades and friends and family and homies, and I know that folks are feeling the burden of this moment. And I have been the one in the room that's like, I ain't tired yet. I am not. I am actually even more energized about what this moment gives us an opportunity to do and what it gives us the ability to create that has never been created before. We cannot just. We don't have to. We can't just organize our way to liberation. We have to create the liberation in the world that we want. And so this is a moment for us to be deeply rooted in that and to not allow this opposition to make us to retreat. It's our time to stand in our full human rights and our full power. And that's what we need people to be committed to in this moment.
- [70:12]
B
Monica Simpson, executive Director of Sistersong and Freedom Fighter. Thank you for joining me.
- [70:18]
D
Thank you so much for having me.
- [70:28]
B
Today marks episode 50 of assembly required with me, Stacey Abrams. And I couldn't let this milestone pass without saying how deeply grateful I am to each and every one of you. Week after week, you show up. And it's because of you, our dedicated audience, that I get to connect with experts, artists, and everyday people to talk honestly about how to fix the problems in our world. Problems that can sometimes feel overwhelming. As always on Assembly Required, we like to give our listeners actionable tools for facing the challenges of today. So here's this week's toolkit in which we will encourage you to be curious, solve problems, and do good. First, be curious. If you want to dig deeper into the state of abortion access and funding after the fall of Roe v. Wade, check out Jessica's daily substack column Abortion Every Day. To learn more about what the history of access to abortion pills can tell us about navigating the current moment, check out the book Just the Extraordinary Story of a Revolution in Abortion Care by Rebecca Kellyer, out on September 30th. Second, let's solve some problems. We often organize to respond to attacks, but I believe we are creative enough to decide what we want and go after it. For this week, as part of solving problems, I want you to imagine what good policy actually looks like. Not what we think will pass or how we fix what they've broken, but what do we want? Send me your ideas in the comments or by email. We have to start building our better ideas today. Third, do good. Support SisterSong@Sistersong.net and seek out local organizations that work to champion abortion access and fight for reproductive justice. Search for local abortion funds and make a donation or find out if they need volunteers. I am incredibly grateful for the support and the engagement from our listeners, but I'd like to reach even more people who are looking to better understand where we are and who want to pitch in as we fight for a fair America and the world we can dare to imagine. You can help by sharing an episode you like with someone who may not know what they're missing. And please remember to subscribe to Assembly Required on all of the places that carry our show, including Apple, Amazon, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what you hear, rate the show and leave a comment. And please continue to tell us what you've learned and solved or what you want to hear about next. You can send an email to assemblyrequiredrookked.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be Featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. I'm recording today from San Diego and I'd like to thank Brian Keim and Colin Tedeschi and the team at Studio west for hosting me today and as always, my deepest appreciation for the team at Crooked and my team for supporting 50 extraordinary conversations about how we build what we deserve together. Remember, we can fix what they're breaking, but there will be some assembly Required, so I'll meet you here next week.
- [73:54]
A
Assembly Required is a Crooked Media production.
- [73:57]
B
Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts.
- [73:59]
A
And our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt de Groat Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mumtha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.
- [74:39]
E
You ever wonder how far an EV can take you on one charge? Well, most people drive about 40 miles a day, which means you can do all daily stuff no problem. Go to work, grab the kids at school, get the groceries and still have enough charge to visit your in laws in the next county. But they don't need to know that. And the best part? You won't have to buy gas at all. The way forward is electric. Explore EVs that fit your life@electricforall.org.