How To Fight Trump’s Anti-American Agenda on Immigration and Refugees

Summary

Podcast Summary: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams Episode: How To Fight Trump’s Anti-American Agenda on Immigration and Refugees
Release Date: February 6, 2025
Host: Stacey Abrams
Produced By: Crooked Media

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Introduction

In this pivotal episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams, host Stacey Abrams delves deep into the contentious and multifaceted issue of immigration in the United States. Addressing the alarming shifts in immigration policies under the Trump administration, Stacey emphasizes the nation's foundational identity as a land built by immigrants. She highlights the duality of compassion for those seeking a better life and the prevalent fear of outsiders, a tension exacerbated by political rhetoric and policy.

Segment 1: Domestic Immigration Policies with Naina Gupta

Guest: Naina Gupta, Director of Policy at the American Immigration Council
Timestamp: [06:23]

Trump’s Executive Orders and Their Impact

Stacey Abrams introduces Naina Gupta to dissect the aggressive immigration policies initiated by former President Donald Trump. Naina explains the vast discretion granted to the executive branch in enforcing immigration laws, highlighting the administration's extensive use of executive orders aimed at overhauling the U.S. immigration system.

Naina Gupta: "There’s a lot of damage the administration can do to undermining this system and targeting all immigrants in the United States, regardless of their specific status." [06:49]

Differentiation Between Types of Immigrants

Naina clarifies the various categories of immigrants affected by these policies, emphasizing that Trump’s focus extends beyond undocumented individuals to include those with lawful status, humanitarian visas, and asylum seekers. She underscores the misconception propagated by conflating civil law violations with criminality.

Naina Gupta: "Fewer than 1 in 10 undocumented people even have a criminal record." [08:22]

Legal Challenges and System Backlogs

The discussion turns to the legal avenues available to immigrants facing deportation. Naina points out the inefficiencies within the immigration court system, burdened by over 2 million cases, which severely limits the ability of immigrants to defend their status.

Naina Gupta: "The problem is that the court system... is incredibly backlogged. Over half of the people who go to court don't even have a lawyer to translate for them." [10:34]

Economic and Social Impacts

Naina elaborates on the profound economic ramifications of mass deportations, including labor shortages in critical sectors such as construction and agriculture. She also highlights the astronomical financial costs associated with deportation efforts, projecting over a trillion dollars over a decade.

Naina Gupta: "Attempting to deport a million people per year... would cost over a trillion dollars." [12:48]

Use of Military for Deportations and Guantanamo Bay

A particularly alarming development discussed is the Trump administration's decision to utilize military resources for deportations, including transporting migrants to Latin America and the controversial plan to repurpose Guantanamo Bay as a detention facility.

Naina Gupta: "They are overstepping constitutional bounds... using Guantanamo... legal pushback will be incredibly important here." [19:33]

Humane Immigration Policy Proposals

Naina advocates for a humane and structured immigration system that provides pathways to legal status while maintaining enforcement. She criticizes the one-size-fits-all approach of mass deportations, proposing instead a system that balances law enforcement with opportunities for legalization.

Naina Gupta: "We should have an orderly system that makes Americans feel safe, but also gives a pathway to legalization for the many people who’ve lived here and contribute richly to our country." [24:20]

Actions Regular People Can Take

Stacey and Naina discuss actionable steps for listeners to support immigrant communities. Naina emphasizes the importance of educating immigrants about their rights and provides resources for disseminating this information effectively.

Naina Gupta: "The first really important line of defense is making sure people on the ground understand their rights." [24:43]

Segment 2: Global Immigration and Refugees with Jeremy Kneindyk

Guest: Jeremy Kneindyk, President of Refugees International
Timestamp: [29:36]

Importance of USAID and Current Attacks

Stacey shifts focus to the global forces influencing immigration, introducing Jeremy Kneindyk to discuss the critical role of USAID. Jeremy outlines USAID’s extensive work in disaster relief, global health, and economic development, emphasizing the recent political maneuvers targeting the agency.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "USAID is the main foreign assistance arm of the federal government... it's a really critical and important way that America shows a face of generosity and support." [30:18]

Definitions: Refugee vs. Asylum Seeker

Jeremy provides clear definitions to differentiate between refugees and asylum seekers, tracing the historical context post-World War II that led to the establishment of refugee protections under international law.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "A refugee is someone who has fled across an international border because they are being persecuted or are unsafe in their home country... An asylum seeker is someone who is trying to make it to a place where they can be safe, but has not yet been determined to have a valid case." [33:15]

Impact of Trump’s Policies on Refugee Programs

The conversation delves into the Trump administration's freeze on the refugee resettlement program, which has left thousands of vetted refugees stranded in precarious situations, highlighting personal stories to illustrate the human cost.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "The Refugee Resettlement program... has 22,000 people stranded... they are now stuck, alone, in refuge camps without any family." [35:49]

Harmful Rhetoric and Its Effects

Jeremy critiques the Trump administration's xenophobic rhetoric, debunking myths that refugees are economic burdens and presenting evidence that resettling refugees is, in fact, economically beneficial for the U.S.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "Resettling refugees... pays more money into the treasury over the first decade of their presence here than it costs to resettle them." [39:53]

Disinformation Examples

Addressing disinformation, Jeremy dissects false claims about U.S. spending on reproductive health in Gaza, providing factual counterpoints to debunk these harmful narratives.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "There is no world in which anyone would think to send a billion condoms to the 2 million people in Gaza. It’s an absurdity." [44:53]

How People Can Get Involved

Jeremy outlines both national and local-level actions listeners can take to support refugees and protect agencies like USAID. He encourages contacting Congress members, engaging with local advocacy groups, and participating in community support initiatives.

Jeremy Kneindyk: "Everyone who cares about these issues should be reaching out to their members of Congress... find ways to gather with other allies of refugees and displaced people." [47:01]

Conclusion and Call to Action

Stacey Abrams wraps up the episode by reinforcing the importance of collective action in addressing immigration issues. She provides listeners with a toolkit of actionable steps, including educating themselves, advocating for policy changes, and directly supporting refugee and immigrant communities through volunteering and donations.

Stacey Abrams: "Our toolkit for this week includes understanding more about undocumented immigration, calling and writing your members of Congress, and finding organizations to support refugees." [50:00]

Stacey also highlights listener stories and encourages ongoing engagement through the podcast's platforms, emphasizing that every small action contributes to building a more inclusive and humane society.

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Notable Quotes

• Stacey Abrams: "We have a responsibility, though, because we are watching the emergence of a terrifying jingoism... but they’re not [bad guys]." [00:45]

• Naina Gupta: "The threat of mass deportation... has a chilling effect on the ground level." [12:48]

• Jeremy Kneindyk: "Refugees create jobs for other people... it's an absolute win across the board." [41:36]

• Stacey Abrams: "We can't fix everything, everywhere, all at once; but we can each do something, somewhere, soon." [Intro]

Key Takeaways

1. Understanding the Complexity of Immigration: Immigration encompasses various categories, each affected differently by policies. It's crucial to distinguish between undocumented immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, and those with lawful status.

2. Economic Contributions of Immigrants: Contrary to prevalent rhetoric, immigrants, including refugees, contribute significantly to the U.S. economy, filling essential roles and generating economic growth.

3. Legal and Systemic Challenges: The U.S. immigration system faces substantial backlogs and inefficiencies, hindering the fair and humane treatment of immigrants seeking legal recourse.

4. Impact of Political Rhetoric and Policies: Aggressive immigration policies and xenophobic rhetoric foster fear and division, undermining America's foundational values of compassion and inclusivity.

5. Actionable Steps for Change: Individuals can make a difference by educating themselves, advocating for policy reforms, supporting immigrant communities, and holding elected officials accountable.

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Resources Mentioned

• American Immigration Council: American Immigration Council
• Refugees International: Refugees International
• Immigrant Legal Resource Center (ILRC): ILRC
• Indivisible: Indivisible
• Refugee Advocacy Lab: Refugee Advocacy Lab

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for listeners to navigate the complexities of immigration and refugee policies, providing both critical analysis and empowering actions to combat unjust practices and promote a more humane and inclusive society.

Transcript

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by bookshop.org Dive back into books and conquer your reading goal this year with bookshop.org whether you're searching for a gripping memoir that reveals an inner life, a cozy mystery to solve, or a self help title to learn a new skill, bookshop.org has you covered. When you purchase from bookshop.org you're supporting over 2,000 local independent bookstores across the country, ensuring they'll continue to foster culture, stoke curiosity and support a passion for reading. This week, might I recommend my romantic suspense novel Power of Persuasion, which has just been re released? I'm also going to order a copy of RF Kuang's latest novel, Yellowface, which takes on issues of cultural appropriation and diversity and seems pretty important right now. Use Code stacy to get 10% off your next [e-mail] that's code stacy s t a c e y bookshop.org welcome to assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host Stacey Abrams. Today we are going to turn our focus to to immigration. This is a very complicated topic because it contains a variety of complex issues that are often interrelated and in tension. As a nation founded by immigrants, we have long struggled with the fact that we need external labor. There is the compassion that so many of us hold for those seeking a better life, and yet there's a fear of those who might bring harm or an animosity towards those who are considered too different to include. Politicians in particular, approach the topic with trepidation, and many among us conflate the blaring headlines that are designed to stoke anger or nativism without helping us to understand what exactly we're talking about. We have a responsibility, though, because we are watching the emergence of a terrifying jingoism, this despicable response that makes us believe that we are better than and it uses immigration as its war cry. Trump began his candidacy in 2016 with racist, anti immigrant invective that set the stage for a presidency defined by bigotry and fear, fueled by hatred and by hypocrisy. His his second campaign was even worse, giving credence and volume to ugly nativist smears of immigrant communities, and he galvanized his party and his supporters to enforce his xenophobic vision for the country by electing him as president. In policy terms, Trump has repeatedly borrowed authoritarian tactics to demonize entire communities, this time launching the largest mass detention and deportation effort in U.S. history. By his own admission, he promised that on day one of his administration he would sign executive orders to completely overhaul the U.S. immigration system. And as regular listeners of the show know, I have repeatedly and consistently pointed out that Donald Trump has a habit of mendacity, that he has a hard time telling the truth. But on this issue, he has unfortunately stayed true to his word. Just three weeks into his presidency, Trump has signed 10 immigration related executive orders, putting a cruel target on the backs of all immigrants, not just those with serious criminal histories, as he claims. This, however, is his return to form on not being honest about his intent. For example, Native Americans, military officials and documented migrants have been detained in recent raids. Why? Because one of the executive orders directs ICE officials to aggressively increase arrest with a daily target of 1,200 to 1500 people. And this number includes emergency workers and those in the process of securing citizenship for through legal channels. Hours after his inauguration, he reversed the Biden era sensitive location policy, which had prevented ICE raids in places like schools, houses of worship and hospitals. He's deployed US Military aircraft to deport detained migrants back to Latin America. And he has authorized Guantanamo Bay as a holding facility for deported migrants, an act decried by Cuba. Trump is attempting to end birthright citizenship, a right that is guaranteed by the United States Constitution. And his malice doesn't end at our southern border. It extends into international waters, affecting asylum seekers and refugees that are fleeing war, famine, religious oppression and sexual violence. People who attempt to enter the United States through legal channels. Trump has indefinitely paused the U.S. refugee Admission Program, which, according to CBS, left 22,000 refugees stranded. These were refugees who were already approved, who had waited 18 to 24 months, who had endured endless rounds of interviews, security screenings and medical checks, only to be blocked at the last second from fleeing oppression and finding safety and security. That's why for today's episode, I've enlisted the help of not one, but two experts. First, we will have Naina Gupta, the director of policy at the American Immigration Council, who will break down what's happening on the domestic front. Then we'll speak to Jeremy Kneindyk, president of Refugees International, to walk us through why America's position on asylum and refugees should not get lost in the debate. Naina Gupta, welcome to Assembly Required.

[Naina Gupta]

Thanks so much for having me, Stacey.

[Stacey Abrams]

We are delighted to have you. So we knew that Trump was going to aggressively move to implement anti immigration policies as soon as he took office, similar to the first time around, and he told us what a lot of them were going to be, but it's still been devastating to watch. So I want to start with a basic question. How much damage can he do in four years?

[Naina Gupta]

Thanks, Stacey. Yeah, it's a really tough question in this moment because we've already seen so much damage in just two weeks. The reality is that under U.S. immigration law, the president and executive branch do have a significant amount of discretion in how they enforce civil immigration laws and how they bring to bear criminal penalties on top of the US Immigration system. So the short answer is there's a lot of damage the administration can do to undermining this system and targeting all immigrants in the United States, regardless of their specific status. What will matter is how willing is Congress going to be to let him go down this path toward mass deportation, or will they hold the line? Will more people come out in protest like we saw this past weekend, where thousands of folks around the country pushed back? Will we hear from state and local leaders who know that this kind of federal policy doesn't help public safety, it undermines the prosperity of their communities? Those three areas are where we can look to see a holding of the line, in addition to legal challenges in our federal courts.

[Stacey Abrams]

So you mentioned the different status positions that people hold. Can you talk a little bit? Because we see all of these conflated, and I think it's important for our listeners to understand exactly what we mean when we talk about immigration in the.

[Naina Gupta]

U.S. so, you know, we've heard the Trump administration market their plans as focusing on criminal immigrants. The reality is that their proposals that we've seen in the past two weeks impact people who are here with lawful status. They impact non citizens, but who've come through humanitarian programs to be in the United States. They impact people who are here temporarily on visas. They impact folks who are trying to come to the US to seek protection while fleeing persecution and violence. And they impact the approximately 13 million undocumented immigrants who live here. Now, when I say undocumented immigrant, what I mean are people who are living here in our communities, who are neighbors, friends, but who are in violation of civil immigration law. There are about 13 million of these folks, as I said, and 80% of them have been here for 15 years or longer. Something a lot of Americans don't know is that undocumented immigrants pay taxes. They contribute over $40 billion in federal taxes and another 29 in state and local taxes. They fill key sectors of our labor market. They're partners to U.S. citizens. They raise U.S. citizen children. They are very much integrated into the fabric of our country and society. And unfortunately, Trump's rhetoric has conflated those folks who, again, are in violation of civil law, they don't have the correct papers as people who are criminals, when, in fact, these are folks who pose absolutely no public safety threat. Fewer than 1 in 10 undocumented people even have a criminal record. And those who do are folks who have them for traffic violations or civil immigration type violations. In other words, these are overwhelmingly people who live in our country and who pose no threat to anybody. And they are being swept in under these Trump immigration orders in addition to other people who have lawful status.

[Stacey Abrams]

So let's talk about the lawful status for a moment. When we understand that people are here legally and you describe the impact of these executive orders, what recourse do these immigrants have in our court of law, given the discretion that you laid out earlier?

[Naina Gupta]

Yeah, I mean, the recourse is narrow. And we're seeing the Trump administration try to overstep its discretion and legal authority to take away the rights these folks have to make a case in court to stay in the country. So, for example, we've seen in the past few days the Trump administration signals stripping lawful protections from people from certain countries like Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua. When the administration does that, these are folks who will now be vulnerable to deportation. If they are put into deportation proceedings. They will have an opportunity under the Immigration and Nationality act to go to court before an immigration judge and try to claim some kind of relief from deportation, to make a case for staying in the US by accessing some other form of protection, like asylum or other forms of relief that the system offers. The problem is that the court system that we have in our current immigration system is incredibly backlogged. There are over 2 million cases in our immigration court backlog right now. And so even getting a day in court for many of these folks will be incredibly difficult. Not to mention, of course, that this is a system where there is no right to an appointed lawyer, where over half of the people who go to court don't even have a lawyer to translate for them. This incredibly complex area of law.

[Stacey Abrams]

So aside from the logistical and accounting impossibilities of deporting 13, 14, 15 million people, and you referenced it a bit earlier, what kind of impact would deporting even a fraction of those who are here who are undocumented have on our communities, on our economy, and on the nation as a whole?

[Naina Gupta]

Yeah. Great and important question, Stacey. So, just to start, even the threat of mass deportation, right, Even attempting to deport a million people per year, which would be more than what we've ever seen the United States government do, that threat alone has a chilling effect on the ground level, right? We've already seen in these first two weeks, citrus farmers not showing up to work in California, other farm workers in Florida, New York not showing up, people not going to school, folks in Chicago hiding in their attics instead of showing up to their jobs. That has an immediate impact on our local economies. And many of those folks won't get swept up. But just being worried that they might means that they don't participate in our workforce, they don't participate in day to day life. Now, when we think about the longer term effect of this, it's worth noting, right? The 13 million undocumented people living here, they represent 1 in 7 construction workers, 1 in 7 agricultural workers in Texas, around 50% of construction workers are here in violation of civil immigration law. Even though they're contributing richly to that industry in Texas, deporting that many folks or scaring them enough to not show up, that means higher food prices, higher housing costs, it means not having a workforce for health care aid workers. Those are real effects will start to feel quickly at the local economic level and over time in our national GDP and on a national economic scale. Now, this is all putting aside the actual direct fire financial cost of trying to deport this many people. At the American Immigration Council, we released a report last year where we looked at the cost of arresting, detaining, processing and removing a million people per year. And over a 10 year period, that would cost over a trillion dollars. Those are dollars that could instead, of course, be used to start Head Start programs all around the country to build affordable housing. These are dollars that are being used for enforcement of immigration instead of other solutions that folks have been seeking or that we understand them to be seeking from the results of this election. And the final point I'll make about this, these costs, I mean, all this money and time to try to pull this off, and none of that offers a meaningful solution to a broken immigration system, Right? It actually inserts more chaos and it wastes law enforcement resources in a way that does not make anybody safer. At the end of the day.

[Stacey Abrams]

Do we have any current data on how many detentions and deportations they've actually already carried out?

[Naina Gupta]

Right. Now we know that ICE under the Trump administration has set a target of approximately 1,000 arrests per day in less than than two weeks. We've seen ICE as a sub agency, make around 12,000 immigration arrests meeting their approximate goal. We don't know whether they'll continue to meet that goal, whether that number will increase by day, but we know that this is more arrests per day and per month than we've seen from the US Government in some time. And that they are doing this in particular by using community arrests, non targeted enforcement actions, and are starting to use work site raids. We don't know how many of these folks are actually being placed into removal proceedings or how many will actually be deported. That's information we hope that the Department of Homeland Security will make public or at least share with Congress. Right now, what we mostly have are the number of people who are being arrested.

[Stacey Abrams]

We are recording this on Monday, February 3rd, and last Friday, Trump's order for US military aircraft to deport detained migrants took effect, again without Republican objection. And so far we know six planes have transported migrants to Latin America. A US Official noted this is the first time in recent memory that military aircraft has been used for such removal. Why is this significant? And can you talk about the decision made by Guatemala regarding migrants and the ongoing conversation with Venezuela?

[Naina Gupta]

Yeah. So what's significant about the Trump administration leaning on resources from other federal agencies and the US Military is it's their way to get over these procedural and resource obstacles. Right. If they don't have funding from Congress for DHS to initiate this many deportations, they're looking to other agencies, to the US Military to fill in with those resources. So we should be alarmed when we see unprecedented use of the military for enforcing laws in the interior of our U.S. because that's the kind of authority that allows the Trump administration to follow through on this agenda faster than ever before. And in terms of negotiations with other countries. Right. What we're seeing is the Trump administration say to certain Latin American countries, first of all, we don't care what your politics are, we'll negotiate with you if you're going to take more deportees back home. And if you say no and you push back the way that we've seen, for example, Colombia do, then we're going to threaten you with the use of tariffs that will be economically crippling for your country and your people.

[Stacey Abrams]

One of the pieces that's most terrifying to me is that Trump, as well as his fellow Republicans, are using these mechanisms to evade the checks and balances that are often the difference between autocracies and democracies. They are trying to leverage what they can do without having to abide by the laws as they exist. And one of the ways that he's attempting to do this is the announced plan to use Guantanamo Bay to hold undocumented immigrants, calling it a tough place to get out of. And he later ordered the construction of a 30,000 bed detention camp at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which is in Cuba. So I want you to talk for a second about what this decision says about the severity of his immigration policies that Republicans are suborning, but also what does it mean in light of the prior uses of Guantanamo as a federal military facility to be used for this domestic purpose?

[Naina Gupta]

Chaos, confusion and fear is the point with the Trump administration. Right. They want headlines about arrests in communities and moving 30,000 people to Guantanamo. The question is, do they really have the legal authority for the first time ever, to put people on Guantanamo who are actually already here in the United States? And there are some important legal challenges that will be filed to push back against the use of that authority. And I want to flag that up top. Now, you are correct that what we're seeing is the Trump administration, in addition to its fearful rhetoric, try to get around the obstacles they face and the delays they face in their mass deportation agenda. And traditionally, Guantanamo has been a place where the US Government can do things in secret. And there isn't accountability for violations of due process. There isn't accountability for the conditions people are subjected to. And that is what Trump is aiming to do here. But the reality is that non citizens in the United States who would be possibly removed and detained in Guantanamo Bay still have a right under immigration law to access immigration court proceedings. And if the Trump administration does not allow them to access those proceedings, there is legal pushback that will be filed in the federal courts because he is subject to the authority of Congress as expressed in the Immigration and Nationality Act. And what we're seeing, of course, across sectors, is the Trump administration overstep its constitutional bounds, ignore direction from Congress. And so with the use of Guantanamo, that legal pushback, in addition to public outcry, will be incredibly important here.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, that takes us nicely to the part of the show that is so important, which is, what do we do about it? You talk about the fact that we can engage in legal action. You talked about the protests that happened earlier. So I want to start with level setting. What would a humane immigration policy look like? One that helps people move out of the shadows and allows them to fully participate in American life, both financially and socially.

[Naina Gupta]

Yeah, this is the question. And unfortunately, in a moment like this, when we're inundated with so many changes and so much chaos, it's easy to lose track of the path ahead. And the path ahead has to include some plan for giving the 13 million people who are here, who've been here for decades, a pathway to Legal status. Now, the thing Americans have to understand is that ultimately we want a system that encourages people to comply with the law, right, to follow the rules. That's the mark of a successful system. Right now, immigration enforcement agencies are being funded at unprecedented levels that has increased over time, and yet there are more people in violation of immigration law. That means our system is not working. It's not helping people comply with the law. It's not incentivizing them to do that. What we can do is have a system where we say, look, if you're in violation of the law, there are certain consequences. No, it should not be deportation as a one size fits all consequence. Right. We should not be sending people to death and indefinitely detaining them when they're contributing in this way to our country. But there can still be some kind of consequence, like you have been here in violation for this many years. Here's a pathway to citizenship. But you will have a two year path to get there. And if along the way you violate other rules, it might take longer to get that right. You can have a system of consequences that's more humane and more reasonable, but that actually puts people on a pathway to getting out of the shadows and honoring what they've been contributing to our country. And so a shorter way of saying this that we hope to hear more Democrats frankly talk about is a fair system is one that is both including legalization and that has enforcement. And the two can go hand in hand. And they absolutely should not include at large community raids or terms like mass deportation or use of the national military. There is no reason to do that. These are not folks who make our lives any less safe. In fact, they create opportunities. Immigrants create jobs for other people. Look, we can have an orderly system that, that makes Americans feel safe, but that also gives a pathway to legalization for the many people who've lived here and who contribute richly to our country.

[Stacey Abrams]

One thing I believe, and one of the reasons I wanted to do assembly required, is that we've got to build our way to what we want. And so if we want that humane policy, we've gotta navigate the horrific behavior that is overtaking us right now. So what actions can we take as regular folks to support immigrants in our communities right now, particularly those who may be under threat?

[Naina Gupta]

Yeah, so the first really important line of defense here is making sure people on the ground understand their rights. You know, people have to know you don't have to open a door if an ICE officer knocks on it. The warrant they have is an administrative warrant, not A judicial warrant, those rights, that education is critical. We saw that in Chicago, where we saw the Trump administration try to sweep up people in the community. And because they knew their rights, it was harder for ICE to meet that goal. So, you know, part of disseminating rights information is making sure it's accessible in all the languages that our communities speak, making sure that folks on the ground are equipped with that information, that our businesses are sharing that.

[Stacey Abrams]

Let's stay with that line of defense. What are the best resources for people to use if they want to take on that responsibility? Give us a couple of websites or a couple of organizations they could turn to.

[Naina Gupta]

Yes. So the Immigrant Legal Resource center, ilrc has a famous red card. You can go to their website, click on a link, print out a card in at least 20 languages. It's pocket size, wallet size. You can keep a stack of that at the coffee shop you run, at the restaurant you run. You can hand it out at your local church. That reminds people in the language they speak what their rights are if ICE shows up. There are also resources on ILRC's website on what to do if ICE shows up to a school and you're a principal or you're a teacher. Right. What to do if you run a congregation at a place of faith, at a place of worship, if suddenly there's ICE nearby. And these are all things we've already seen in two weeks. So I would encourage folks to check out that website for Know youw Rights. Information that can be easily shared in a digestible way.

[Stacey Abrams]

Awesome. Well, Naina, thank you so much for being with us. Is there any last word you wanna give to our audience before we get out there and take action?

[Naina Gupta]

Um, the last word I would say is just, you know, the only way to push back on the confusion and chaos of this moment is for each of us to speak up on any platform that we have. This is a moment where elected officials are being told it's unhelpful to talk about immigration. It's politically toxic. And we have to push back on that idea by supporting folks on the ground and speaking up as much as we can. So thanks so much for having me. I'm so grateful.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you so much for spending this time and giving such great information on assembly required. Today's episode is sponsored by acorns. Between writing my next book, hosting a podcast, and supporting the important work of Feeding America and local food banks, I welcome any opportunity to automate the daily administrative tasks that keep my life moving forward. With acorns, you can prioritize your financial wellness in just five minutes. That's all the time it takes to open your account. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change and you don't need a ton of time. Just like the small, simple actions we take to make a difference here at Assembly Required, Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track. Acorns makes everything so easy and leaves me with time to do the things I love like dig into a great new book, pursue a new cooking project, and daydream about warmer weather. Head to acorns.com assembly or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today, paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentives to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important [e-mail] assembly we've just focused on how Trump's immigration policies are going to impact millions of people who already live in the US and those who are trying to enter through the southern border. Now we're going to talk about the global forces that influence immigration and how that impacts the flow of refugee and asylum seekers to our shores. Joining me today is Jeremy Kneindyk, the President of Refugees International. Prior to his current role, Jeremy worked for USAID, the U.S. agency for International Development, during both the Biden and Obama administrations, addressing everything from COVID 19 to disaster assistance. Jeremy, welcome to Assembly Required.

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

My pleasure. It's a privilege. Thank you.

[Stacey Abrams]

So we are recording this on Monday, February 3rd, and at this very moment, members of Congress have basically demanded entry to the shuttered USAID headquarters. This is on the heels of some fairly, I would say illegal if not illegal actions taken by the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and by President Trump and his shadow puppet, President Elon Musk. Can you spend a little bit of time explaining to our listeners what USAID is and why they should be paying attention to what's unfolding right now?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

So USAID is the main foreign assistance arm of the federal government. So anything from disaster relief, which are some of the programs that I used to lead. So when you would see teams of American rescue personnel in Haiti after the earthquake, after a tsunami somewhere or a hurricane somewhere, those were USAID personnel. Those were our teams. They would go deploy after a major crisis and save lives. It's also things like global health. So up until the past week or so, the US would support 20 million people around the world on HIV treatments to keep their HIV infections suppressed. And we have saved 25 million lives that would have been lost to HIV over the last 20 years. That sort of global health programming is really a core part of what we do through the US Government at usaid, Ebola response, outbreak response, and then also things like long term economic development, human rights and democracy work, rebuilding countries after crisis. So in a sort of normal situation, we would be focused very heavily on Syria right now and trying to build up towards some sort of a more stable government and future for the country of Syria. So it really runs the gamut, but it's a really critical and important way that America shows a face of generosity and support and solidarity and partnership to the world. And those are not values that you hear Trump or Elon Musk talk about very much. And so it's not surprising to me that they're targeting USAID right out of the gate.

[Stacey Abrams]

And knowing you're not a lawyer, but as someone who once worked for usaid, can you talk a little bit about what is happening right now and why it is so disturbing that the Secretary of State has been declared the head of the usaid?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Yeah. And in this case, you don't really need to be a lawyer to know this is illegal. There's a great resource I would point people to a woman named Tess Bridgman, who I worked with in the Obama administration. She was a White House National Security lawyer, has written a great piece on just security about the legalities of this. But the bottom line is Congress enshrined USAID in law. So it was originally established by John F. Kennedy in 1961 through an executive order, but later on, Congress did legislate it. So it cannot be undone by an executive order, contrary to what Elon Musk and a lot of his minions in my Twitter mentions keep asserting.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay, so we're going to do one more set of definitions and, and level setting before we jump into the heart of the conversation. But I appreciate you doing this because I think it's so critical for those who are hearing the news and hearing the noise to understand just how dangerous what is unfolding is. And so the other piece that I would love for you to describe are a couple of key terms that we're going to use. Can you describe the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee? And just talk a little bit about the work that you do in this context.

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

So a refugee is someone who has fled across an international border because they are being persecuted or are unsafe in their home country. And so that comes out of the experience of the post World War II era, where after World War II, there was enormous displacement in Europe. And of course, there had been horrifying stories like the St. Louis, a boat of Jewish refugees from Europe who were refused entry into the United States and ultimately returned to Europe, to many of whom were then harmed and killed. There was a very strong feeling after World War II that we needed protection, we needed global systems to protect people like that. So it comes out of that experience of displacement and war and persecution and really extermination during World War II. So coming out of that, in 1951, the world put together the Refugee Convention. And the basic idea of the Refugee Convention, which the US Was one of the lead signatories on, was that people should have access to protection when they are at grave harm in their home country and that other countries should have a system to take them in and protect them. And that is what we now call in most countries. So a refugee is someone who has fled across a border and been granted some form of asylum in another country. An asylum seeker is someone who is trying to make it to a place where they can be safe, but has not yet been determined to have a valid case. So when someone tries to come into the United States, if it is, say, a Venezuelan who is fleeing state collapse and often targeted violence in their home country, making their way through very dangerous and unsafe conditions through Central America, comes to the US Border, in theory, should be able to just present themselves at one of our border crossings and say, I have a fear of persecution. I would like to seek asylum in the United States, the reality is a lot messier and more complicated than that. That's the theory of how it should work. It's not often how it does work. And we can get into some of which think of an asylum seeker almost as a refugee in waiting, someone who is asserting they deserve that status, but the state that would let them in has not yet granted it.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, okay, last one. There has been a lot of conversation about TPS and the decision by Donald Trump to revoke it, necessarily from Venezuelans, Nicaraguans, Haitians. Can you talk a little bit about TPS and sort of the universe of those who are currently in the news?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

So TPS is a really critical tool to protect people who are in this country and who cannot safely return to their home country. And so it is often used if a country has fallen into civil war, if it has fallen into widespread state collapse or civil disorder. And so places like Venezuela, places like Sudan, where there is an ongoing major civil war and famine, will often be designated for temporary protected status by the US President because it's a recognition that whether or not a Sudanese person or a Venezuelan person is in this country lawfully, they cannot be safely returned to the country they come from. Haiti is another, of course, case of that. Right now there's widespread state collapse and violence in Haiti. So this often becomes a way for people who are they maybe did not come here as refugees, but functionally are not too different from refugees in the sense that they cannot safely go home.

[Stacey Abrams]

According to cbs, the Trump administration's freeze on the refugee Resettlement program has left 22,000 people stranded. @ the top of the program. We talked about the fact that many of these folks have been through security checks and health checks and criminal background checks. They have done everything they've been asked to do, and now they are stopped. Is this an accurate assessment of the state of play and where are these people coming from and what happens to them now?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

So the Refugee Resettlement program is a long standing and traditionally very bipartisan program to bring people who are refugees in a third country to safety and to rebuild a new life in the United States. And so this could be people right now. Many of those people in that program are Afghans. So there are a lot of Afghans who are who fled after the fall of Kabul, who are currently sheltering in Pakistan but cannot safely stay there because as long as they are in Pakistan, sometimes they are targeted for persecution. They face a risk of being forced to go back to potential harm or death in Afghanistan. Pakistan has expelled a lot of Afghans. And so the US Government has this program for people who are in that kind of situation who have fled their home country but can't stay viably in the country where they currently are. So it gives them a critical way to seek durable safety. Many Afghans right now are stranded, people who had registered with the US Government, been vetted by the US Government and now are stuck in unsafe and very precarious situations. Many of these are family members of people who have already come to the United States. So many of the Afghans who fled after the fall of Kabul, came here individually, still had family members left behind who were not able to get out at that time. Those people are now stranded. I heard another story of a South Sudanese family who could not safely return to South Sudan, who had been vetted, reviewed, approved for resettlement. Most of the family flew in the first part of January, but they had one daughter, a young adult daughter, who had a paperwork problem and had to stay back while that got fixed. January 20th comes and goes. The Trump administration stops all additional resettlement. And now that young woman is alone, stranded in a refugee camp without any family around to protect her. Her family are here, absolutely heartsick, unsure if she is safe, unsure if they will ever be able to reunite with her. These are the kind of human impact that this refugee ban is having.

[Stacey Abrams]

So much of the Trump administration's rhetoric, and by extension the Republican Party's rhetoric about immigration, paints everyone who comes here as criminals. And in regards to helping refugees and others from around the world, they frame it not as prioritizing safety and security for all, but as us deprioritizing the needs of Americans. Can you talk a bit about this rhetoric and what is harmful about it, but also what we should hear when we hear this?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Yeah, it is needless to say it is deeply xenophobic. It's also important to call out. It is just factually wrong. It is disinformation. There was a really seminal study done of the economic effects of resettling refugees to the United States States. This was chartered during the first Trump administration. Stephen Miller wanted to have evidence that it was an economic harm to the United States to resettle refugees here. And instead what they found was it was a substantial economic benefit. There has been a lot of research finding that resettling refugees to this country pays more money into the treasury over the first decade of their presence here than it costs to resettle them. So it's actually a net economic benefit to the the US Taxpayer to welcome refugees in this country. President Biden's parole program, which was kind of another tool that the president can use for bringing in people. They don't have to be refugees to be eligible. But generally it is targeted towards people from unsafe countries. The parole program has brought in Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Ukrainians were brought into the United States this way after the war began there, and Afghans were brought in this way. They are filling critical jobs all over the country right now. It's no secret to any of your listeners, we have huge labor gaps in the United States right now. This is a way to help fill them and get a double benefit because it helps to revitalize US Communities, it helps to fill vacant jobs that Americans are not filling, and it provides protection and support to people who badly need it. So it's an absolute win across the board. But often those people are a different color from what this administration prefers, frankly.

[Stacey Abrams]

So I heard you say two things. One, that Stephen Miller proved that refugees and asylum seekers are a net benefit to the US Accidentally, however it happens.

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Exactly.

[Stacey Abrams]

But the second, and I think this is worth digging into, there's a narrative that abounds that we shouldn't be responsible, that as the richest country in the world, it's not our responsibility to take care of anyone else. But I would argue, and I think your life's work shows that we can take care of both our own needs and contribute to helping others. So what's your elevator pitch? When someone is getting into this argument, when someone is trying to convince a friend, a neighbor, a coworker who thinks that we shouldn't be dealing with this, that it's not our problem to be concerned with what happens elsewhere, what do you think we should say?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Well, I'd say a few things. First, it is the story of America. My ancestors, if you go back a few generations, were poor people from the Netherlands who came here to build a better life for themselves. And I like to think I'm contributing to the country in a positive way. And it's a net good that they did that. Every major wave of migration to the United States in history has faced exactly that same sort of attitude. We are full. We can't possibly take any more. They're ruining our country, all of this. If you go back and look at the rhetoric around around Irish and Italian immigrants from the first part of the 20th century, it is very similar to what we see today. It is, as we know now, a huge economic and a huge cultural and social benefit to our country to be a welcoming country. And most Americans agree with that. Yes, there is a very vocal minority who are, of course, very opposed to that. But we have done polling, other organizations like us have done polling looking at voter attitudes, attitudes on welcoming people who are fleeing harm. And even in September of last year, at the peak of the election season, at the peak of the anti immigrant rhetoric, when hundreds of millions of dollars of anti immigration advertising was on the airwaves, a solid majority, more than 60% of Americans believe we should continue to resettle refugees here, a solid majority of independents, a solid majority of Democrats, and even a plurality of Republicans. What we also find is that when people personally know a refugee, when they identify with that story and they can see that in their lives that support shoots way up. So among people who know a refugee, that support goes up across the board, including with Republicans, by 20 points. And what that tells me is people identify with that. That really is a core American value. And part of the reason why you see so much gaslighting and disinformation and hundreds of millions of dollars of negative political advertising around immigration is to counteract that very basic fact that America, at its core, remains a welcoming country.

[Stacey Abrams]

Last week, the Trump administration kept repeating, for example, that we spent $50 million on condoms for Gaza. And you, I want to congratulate you, you not only effectively pushed back against it and called it disinformation, you managed to think, be part of the chorus that shouted down the crazy. But can you clarify that bit of disinformation and any other major misconceptions that are being promoted?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Yeah, and I think this is a really instructive case because one of the things that you've heard a lot, you've seen a lot in Elon's Twitter feed and you're hearing now repeated by the president as well, this is all waste, fraud, and corruption. And when they are pressed to give an example of that, they talk about the condoms. None of it is real. So when I first saw this, and I've worked on reproductive health programs, and I've worked in disaster response, and. And something about that figure just struck me as wrong. So I reached out to a few friends who work on reproductive health procurement. The US Government buys a lot of condoms for its reproductive health programs. It sends none of them to Gaza, for the record, but it does buy a lot of them for elsewhere. And so I just asked, how much do those things cost when we buy them in bulk? And the answer was, well, between 4 and 5 cents apiece. So $50 million, at that level would be more than a billion condoms. There is no world in which. I mean, it's just, when you put it that way, there is no world in which anyone would think to send a billion condoms to the 2 million people in Gaza. It also, of course, never mind the fact that the Israeli government controls anything that goes in and out of Gaza and would never let those truckloads. So it's an absurdity. But it's an absurdity. I think that's very instructive because they are not bothering to talk about plausible things. They are not bothering to find real stories. They are making stuff up. They are spouting untruths and then using that as their pretext to gut a federal agency that they do not Like.

[Stacey Abrams]

Jeremy, you have been incredibly helpful. And so I'm going to close with this. One thing that we do on this show is not just give people information so they can understand where we are, but give them tools for making an impact on an individual and local level. But with a subject like this, some of us can feel not only overwhelmed, but powerless. What would you say to them? Are there ways for average folks to get involved to help refugee families who are already here, assist those who are coming to the US or just something that you think needs to be done in this moment to protect and preserve our national belief in doing for others?

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

Absolutely. And I would talk about a national level and I would talk about a very local level to start with. The high level, the national level. Everyone who cares about these issues should be reaching out to their members of Congress, particularly if they are in a red district or a red state, and saying, save usaid. We care about doing good in the world. We think the richest country on earth should do good in the world, no matter what the richest man in the world thinks about that. So Republicans in particular need to be hearing that.

[Naina Gupta]

But.

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

But all members of Congress need to know that their constituents care about this, and if they do, it will materially help to protect USAID against some of these attacks. Similarly, while you're talking to them, talk about the importance of continuing to welcome refugees and protect people in this country. The refugee resettlement program also needs saving. It is also being targeted by a ban right now at a local level. One of the interesting things about refugee policy in the United States is that a lot of the things that make life better for refugees and newcomers in the United States are actually state and local policies. Access to education, access to labor. Talk to your mayor, engage in your local government, engage in your state government. We have a program called the Refugee Advocacy Lab that works in a number of states, and that's the website. Refugee AdvocacyLab.org, works in a number of states that to advance those kinds of welcoming policies at the state and city level. And then I'd go one more level down in your own community, find ways to gather with other allies of refugees and displaced people. It's really important we build community. Right now, I talk to a lot of people who feel very isolated, who don't know and aren't connecting with other people who share their values. Organize a book group. Organize a movie group. There's a great book by Jonathan Blitzer called Everyone who has Gone Is Here Looking at the Global Displacement Crisis. That's a great place to start and also reach out to mutual aid societies that are supporting migrants in your community because there's a lot to do there and they always need extra sets of hands.

[Stacey Abrams]

Jeremy, thank you so much for your time, for your efforts, for your energy and for being with us here on Assembly Required.

[Jeremy Kneindyk]

It's my pleasure. Thanks so much Stacy.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by ARA Frames. I have a large, tight knit family. Parents, siblings, spouses, nieces and nephews and more. Like most families, we love to share memes, gossip and photos. Lots of photos. That's why I was so excited when ARA Frames sent me their digital frames. It was named the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter and for good reason. It's so easy to set up and a great way for making sure that your pictures make it from your phone to your home. Open up space on your phone by sharing your memories with loved ones with a unique, stylish digital picture frame from araframes. Because Ara Frames comes with unlimited storage, all you need is the free ARA app and a WI FI connection and you can upload as many photos and videos as as you want year round. Right now you can save on the perfect gift that connects you no matter where you are. Visit araframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $20 off of their bestselling Carver Mat frame with code assembly. That's Ara U R A frames.com promo code assembly. And don't forget to mention that we sent you to show your support for the show. Terms and conditions apply. So I know we've covered a lot of ground in today's episode, and even though things may seem dire, we are here together because we know we can build the world we deserve. And that means that we are going to take on tough issues like immigration. Immigrants have, since the very beginning, helped shape who we are as a nation. Therefore, supporting our friends, our loved ones, and our communities that are most impacted by Republican attempts to rewrite that important history will be essential. So here's your toolkit for this week. Number one, be curious to understand more about undocumented immigration, asylum seekers and refugees. Go to the organizations that focus on each of these for more information. That includes includes Refugees International and the American Immigration Council, with gratitude again to our guest. Number two, we're going to solve problems. I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Call and write your members of Congress. In fact, we just had a member of Congress tell us. Call and write your members of Congress. Let them know that these issues matter to you and that you want them to fight on your behalf, on their constituents behalf, and you want them to oppose harmful legislation and attempts by Donald Trump to evade responsibility. The Congressional Switchboard number is 202-224-3121. So just give them a call. When they answer, give them your state and your zip code and ask to be transferred to your representative. Then call back for your two senators. And remember, remember, your party doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter which party they're in. They are U.S. representatives and U.S. senators. So if you live in their district or their state, you have the right to speak up and the right to expect a response. But I need you to also share your concerns on social media, in your local papers, especially in rural areas, or on minority media and with your friends and family. As Senator Booker told us, communications do matter. 3. Do good. If you want to help refugees resettle in the US Find an organization in your home state that does that work. Remember, these are families that have left everything behind. You can help with donations or volunteering your time, whatever you have the capacity to do. And as we were encouraged, for those who are facing deportation and detention, we can also hand out information so migrants know their rights. Please visit the Immigrant Legal resource [e-mail] for resources and other ways to get involved. Okay, this week we're also going to do something a little different to answer our listener questions. We are delighted to get so many voicemails and emails and comments, and it's not possible to respond to them all and get to the next episode. So I want you to know that we do see them and we pay attention. Therefore, I would like to welcome our producer, Ilona Minkovsky to tell us a bit about what's been on your minds.

[D]

Thanks, Stacey. Well, we get a lot of listener voicemails. We get a lot of listener emails. And as you mentioned, we're so grateful for all of the I have to say that even though it's been a bit of a dark start to the year and it feels like very stressful times, you know, our listeners have really been enjoying the guests that we've had on, and I think that that feedback has been overwhelming. Whether it was Kenji Yoshino or Melissa Murray or Senator Cory Booker, they are making themselves heard loud and clear that they really, really love the guests that we've had on recently. And you know, one thing that I notice every week when I'm reading through all these questions that people send in is everyone wants you to give them the answer on how it is that they can do something, how it is that they can get involved and help. And I think that's very relatable. Right. It's very easy to feel overwhelmed when everything feels like it's going in the wrong direction. And so I thought maybe you could offer us a little bit of insight into your own history and past. What was the first, you know, good thing that you did that helped you kind of streamline, pick your lane and feel like you were making a difference?

[Stacey Abrams]

So I can't remember the very first thing I did because I grew up with parents who had us doing lots of things. But I will tell you, I recently wrote a children's book called Stacy Speaks Up. And for me, it's the distillation of what I remember, which was, I saw a problem. I tried to find somebody else to fix it. So I went to an adult, and the adult told me that I needed to use my voice. In real life, what I did was find some friends to try to help. But in the book Stacey Little, Stacy finds some friends, and they do a petition, and then they actually talk to the people in power, in this case the school board. But I think it's important to remember that our job is to marry empathy with advocacy. We first have to know why we care, and then our next step is to just find one small way to help. And so for me, that meant finding someone, finding the adult in charge, and telling them about a problem that maybe they didn't see because they were too far removed. And often, that's really the issue. It's not that the problem is too big to solve. It's that sometimes people just don't see it because they get so used to it being wrong that they forget that we can make it right.

[D]

Okay, that's very, very helpful. And now I do want to read you one question from a listener this week. This one comes from sue, and she is from upstate New York. Says she loves the show. And she says, while I may not be able to solve complex issues like TikTok, I believe that citizen action groups can play a huge role in pushing back on important issues like women's reproductive freedom. Perhaps you could take some time to explain how people can form citizen action groups in their local areas. Can you answer that one for us? I have no idea.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm so excited to talk about this. There is a fantastic organization, Indivisible, that was created in the wake of the 2016 elections. They have grown across the country, and this is what they do. You can Visit [e-mail] where they have toolkits, guides, they can tell you about local groups that already exist in your community. And if there aren't those groups, they can tell you how to form them. One of the most important things is not to reinvent the wheel. We might build a new car, we might take a new direction, but we don't have to reinvent what's already been done. And Indivisible.org does an amazing job of helping citizen action groups come together, find resources and get good done.

[D]

Amazing. All right, Stacy, well, that was a great answer. I will be back again on another episode to fill you in on how our listeners are thinking and feeling.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thanks so much Ilona. Appreciate you coming by. So to wrap up, I did want to tell you all that not only do I hear what you ask, I want to share what you do. And this is from another listener who said, I loved your episode with Cory Booker and his idea of radical empathy. You asked for comments on what we are doing to be light to combat the darkness the election of Donald Trump has brought to our country. Well, this listener said, I decided to volunteer for a local nonprofit called Matthew House that helps refugees and immigrants. I'm learning how to teach English as a Second Language ESL to refugees and immigrants. My first night volunteering was this past Thursday and I am volunteering twice a month after work. In addition, I am making financial donations to to this nonprofit. I want to say thank you to that listener for taking the time to share what you're doing and I want all the rest of you to tell us what you've learned, what you've solved. Send us an [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail. And you and your questions and comments not only might be featured on the pod, but you might have the wonderful Ilona reading it out loud. Our number is 213293, 9509. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. I am delighted to be here with you and I look forward to meeting you here again next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Ilona Minkowski and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This is this episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilius Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt de Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slosberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America, EAS SA.