How Trump Plans to Gut the Environment to Pay for Iran (w/Ayana Elizabeth Johnson)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Episode: How Trump Plans to Gut the Environment to Pay for Iran (w/ Ayana Elizabeth Johnson)
Date: April 7, 2026
Theme:
Stacey Abrams and Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson explore the impacts of the Trump administration’s environmental rollbacks, the connections between energy, climate, and geopolitics—specifically focusing on the ongoing war in Iran—and environmental justice. They break down the urgent threats to environmental law, discuss the climate cost of war, and provide actionable pathways for listeners to engage and resist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the Climate Movement (10:06–14:05)

• Abrams and Johnson discuss the change in momentum since 2024:

  • Optimism following the initial passage of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA): “Almost 200,000 jobs had just been created in the clean energy sector as a result of all that investment.” (Johnson, 10:06)
  • The post-election landscape: a hostile federal environment but resilience at the city and state level.

• Three-fold framing for climate advocates:

  1. Defense: Legal action to preserve environmental laws (Endangered Species Act, Clean Air Act, etc).
  2. Political Engagement: Electing climate-minded candidates at all levels. “Climate deniers running our country is a literal recipe for disaster.” (Johnson, 12:37)
  3. Vision and Dreaming: Imagining and preparing progressive policies to rebuild when opportunities arise.

2. Budget Cuts & Impacts at the Federal Level (14:05–18:55)

• Trump’s Proposed Budget slashes environmental agencies and programs to fund military expansion, particularly for the Iran conflict.
• Cuts include halving EPA’s budget, removing support for low-income energy assistance amidst increasing extreme weather and costs.
• Consequences: Rising energy bills, reduced enforcement of key laws (“The headline that upset me the most...environmental laws are no longer being enforced.” — Johnson, 17:45), loss of institutional knowledge as federal experts are ousted, and the collapse of mutual aid safety nets.

3. Local and State Prospects: "Glimmers of Hope" (23:03–25:29)

• Abrams highlights successes in Georgia’s Public Service Commission elections—proving climate progress remains possible locally.
• Johnson underscores that economic realities now favor renewables: “Clean energy, renewable energy, is cheaper in almost every scenario now at the utility level.” (23:41)
• Trump administration’s efforts to prop up unprofitable coal as evidence of inevitable transition: “He has to force these facilities to stay open...proof that this transition is inevitable.” (24:31)

4. The Forest Service, Privatization of Weather, and Anti-Intellectualism (25:29–32:32)

• Forest Service Restructuring: Trump plan to centralize forest service jobs in Utah, likely leading to mass attrition and loss of research continuity.
• Risks include mismanagement of forests (elevating wildfire dangers), privatization of research/data, and sidelining of scientific expertise.
• Anti-intellectualism critique: “Having that curiosity about Mars but not about Earth is...short sighted.” (Johnson, 30:09).
• Abrams connects the nation’s reverence for space exploration (Artemis 2) to a lack of support for terrestrial science—a symbolic decay of civic priorities.

5. War in Iran & the Environmental Costs of Militarism (32:32–37:28)

• Abrams details the linkage between the war in Iran/Greater Middle East and the gutting of environmental budgets.
• Johnson highlights:
  • US military as the largest single institutional emitter.
  • Petrochemical pollution from war: “It was literally raining black oil and soot from the sky.” (34:34)
  • Water infrastructure at risk—targeting of desalination plants is a human rights crisis.

6. Climate-Driven Migration & Statelessness (37:28–42:43)

• Climate change as an exponential driver for migration: floods, drought, fires, and sea level rise.
• US and global policy not equipped for the scale (“13 million Americans are going to have to relocate because of sea level rise” Johnson, 39:29).
• The need for a presidential agenda that is rooted in reality, supports both mitigation and humane migration solutions.

7. Environmental Racism & Exclusion from Solutions (47:13–53:12)

• Abrams and Johnson discuss how racism, especially environmental racism, hinders our collective ability to solve climate challenges.
• Black, Asian, and Latino communities express more concern and readiness for climate action but are systemically sidelined (“If we’re going to solve the largest challenge humanity has ever faced...how are we going to do that without the brain power of people of color?” — Johnson, 48:25)
• The Trump administration’s targeting of environmental justice as a priority is called out as emblematic of an anti-democratic, authoritarian trend.

8. The Ocean’s Role in Climate & Overlooked Solutions (54:15–58:18)

• Johnson’s perspectives as a marine biologist: the ocean absorbs 90% of planetary heat trapped by emissions.
• Oceans offer 35% of climate solution potential—via offshore wind, conserving blue-carbon ecosystems, and more.
• Emphasis on economic and resilience benefits: “Every dollar spent on reef and wetland restoration achieves more than $7 in direct flood reduction benefits.” (Johnson, 57:38)

9. Homework and Tangible Actions (60:46–69:09)

• Book recommendation: “What if We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures” (Johnson, 60:59)

• Action Steps:

  1. Vote and expand efforts via Environmental Voter Project—mobilizing millions who have climate as a #1 issue but don’t vote (62:43)
  2. Find your unique contribution: Use the “climate Venn diagram”—what you’re good at, what the world needs, what brings joy (64:26)
  3. Align your finances: Divest from fossil fuels using resources like Bank Forward and Green Portfolio (66:46)
  4. Join local climate groups: Sunrise Movement, Third Act, Citizens Climate Lobby, 350.org, Surfrider, Sierra Club.
  5. Advocate at all levels: Urge city/state officials to prioritize climate protections.

• Community-building: Johnson holds launch parties/dance events at various science/nature institutions—making climate action joyful and communal. (“My personal motto is to take climate change seriously, but not take yourself too seriously.” — Johnson, 67:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Climate deniers running our country is a literal recipe for disaster.” — Ayana Elizabeth Johnson (12:37)
• “It is this mix of not just changing the rules of the game, but actually not caring what they are.” — Johnson on the administration’s enforcement failures (17:23)
• “We're in this together, and we gotta do something together. I have a role to play here.” — Johnson on the communal mindset driving action in communities of color (49:33)
• “Having that curiosity about Mars but not about Earth is...short sighted.” — Johnson (30:09)
• “He has to force these facilities to stay open...proof that this transition is inevitable.” — Johnson on coal (24:31)
• “Our taxpayer dollars are all going to bombs right now.” — Johnson on federal spending priorities (16:28)
• “13 million Americans are going to have to relocate because of sea level rise. We're not prepared for that.” — Johnson (39:29)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• State of the movement, 3-pronged approach: 10:06–14:05
• Federal budget & impacts: 14:05–18:55
• Local & state hope: 23:03–25:29
• Forest Service, knowledge/anti-intellectualism: 25:29–32:32
• War emissions & militarism: 32:32–37:28
• Climate migration: 37:28–42:43
• Environmental racism: 47:13–53:12
• Oceans & marine climate solutions: 54:15–58:18
• Homework & tangible action: 60:46–69:09

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Final Homework & Ways to Engage

• Read: Johnson’s "What if We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures"
• Get involved: Environmental Voter Project, Project Drawdown, local climate orgs
• Find your climate Venn diagram (“what are you good at, what needs doing, what brings you joy?”)
• Divest: Move your money out of fossil fuels
• Participate: Attend Johnson’s climate dance parties to connect joy and activism

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Closing Message

"Every decision to resist adds up. Be curious, get involved, align your vote, your skills, and your money with the future you want to build."
— Stacey Abrams (69:30)

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams From Crooked Media, I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. With so many competing problems that are dominating the news, the climate crisis has receded from the headlines, but not from our reality. Today's episode with Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson brings that conversation back home, exploring how our energy and climate choices impact issues like the war in Iran, the deregulation of corporate pollution, the expansion of environmental injustice, and the implications for immigration's next massive challenge. I personally spent this last week in Dilly, Texas, launching the 10 Steps campaign read them Home Initiative, which brings together national and local organizations to use reading as a public act of care, resistance and demand for change on behalf of the families being held indefinitely in the Dilley Family Detention Center. As a writer and an activist, the origin of the vigil and this initiative was to focus our attention on how critical books are, children's books are to learning about who we are. I talk about this and the climate issue because both are about what we dream, what we imagine, what we need to know. One of my dreams as a kid, and well into my freshman year of college, was the dream of space. You see, my older sister Andrea was the only person in our family who had a separate tv. There was one in the living room. And then for her senior graduation gift, my aunt and uncle gave her a tv. And it was the height of joy when Andrea invited you into her room to watch a show with her. And I got the invitation in 1987 to come and watch this weird new show called Star the Next Generation. And it blew my mind. It wasn't the first time I'd seen a show about space, but it was one of the best, of course, because we used to watch a lot of pbs. I had been indoctrinated by Doctor who, tripping through time from planet to planet. And with the return of Star Trek and its next generation, Space held this glorious mystery and this extraordinary promise and this dream. But there's another thing that made me think about space. In 1986, almost every child in America could tell you about the roster of the space shuttle challenger. Ronald McNair, the second black person to ever fly in space. Christa McAuliffe, the inaugural NASA Teacher in Space. But I'd known other names because, as I said, I really like space. Guy Bluford, Sally Ride, Mae Jemison. These were trailblazers who would go into outer space and take the rest of us with them. Space was about possibility. It was a place that was infinite in opportunity, and it could be seen by anyone who could just look up. And so the exploration of space that had been taught to us as a natural inheritance of our curiosity and our ingenuity and our competitiveness, those things, for me as a child, would guarantee us a place among the stars. I remember the reverence with which we spoke of NASA in the 1980s, and I remember watching the Challenger explosion in 1986 while sitting in our homeroom in Bayou View junior High. The tragic disaster remains one of my most searing memories. And the way it halted our zeal for space has been a lasting public scar. And then last week, despite our coarse political reality on the ground, despite dislike and antipathy for how this administration has treated science, where science and technology are often in tension with. With our notions of humanity, the Artemis 2 mission reminded me and millions of others about why we love space. You see, we may have made this unconscionable decision with the CDC and the National Institutes of Health and the National Science foundation to stop science, to revile learning, to say that this isn't who we are, but this flight to the moon, no matter why we're doing it, has allowed us to reclaim a small measure of our vision for a world beyond who we are, but also an opportunity to be reminded of why we are now. Artemis 2 will be dismissed by some as a waste of money, a waste of time. But to me, and to millions more, it is a reminder of our shared humanity. When Victor Glover looked out that window and described seeing the blue marble of Earth, our one of one world, he reminded us that the brilliance of science and technology can be harnessed in service of knowledge and humanity. Science, space, this work is how we reach beyond our known limits and we dare to imagine more. And there has never been a time in America when imagining more was more necessary. You see, as they travel through space on Artemis 2, they're going to send back images of our home planet from miles above. They're going to send us images of the far side of the moon that we've written songs about but have never seen. They're going to tell us stories about who we are and no one can claim full ownership. Instead, we are all reminded that we are common stewards of this planet and we are. To temporary occupants. Now look, I have Star Trekked, I have Battlestar Galactica'd, I have Firefly'd, I have studied the skies for all mankind. And I have watched every season of Doctor who. And all of this fantastic television about the possibility of space travel is about one thing. It's about who we are. With Artemis 2, we can see anew what humans can believe, what Americans can believe about who we are, that with our bound hopes and our ingenuity, we can head to infinity and beyond. And so I want to take this moment to say thank you to the crew of Artemis 2 for the reminder. Now, back on Earth, today's guest, Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, is a marine biologist and policy expert. She co founded the nonprofit think tank Urban Ocean Lab and is also co ed of the All We Can Save Project, an anthology of bestselling writing by 60 women who are trying to save the planet. Dr. Johnson is also the author of the New York Times bestselling book what if We Get It? Visions for Climate Futures, out on paperback on April 14th. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, welcome to assembly required.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me. It's good to be with you, Stacey.

[A]

Likewise. Well, the last time you and I saw each other, we were doing an impromptu duet of Prince and we were talking about the.

[C]

This is like one of the most delightful, surprising things that's ever happened to me in a panel discussion.

[A]

Hey, I contain multitude, as do you, but this was in 2024, and at the time we were having a very thoughtful discussion about the Inflation Reduction act, the progress America was making on climate change. And a lot has absolutely changed. So, you know, at the time, it's

[C]

been an eventful few years.

[A]

Absolutely. And so before I launch into my very specific questions for you, I would love to sort of catch up between November 24th and today, you know, we did talk about how the climate crisis and the environment were overwhelming to a lot of folks and that they could feel that was an insolvable problem. At the time, we were talking about how the IRA was making it more accessible, but we're back at the beginning. So can you talk to me about how you are thinking of this moment and in the context of the work you do and how you make it feel accessible and actionable to the folks you talk to?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it was a totally different moment when we were last having this conversation. There was, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars going into the clean energy transition out of our taxpayer dollars, all these infrastructure investments, lots of Department of Energy funding going into clean tech startups. Just like almost 200,000 jobs had just been created in the clean energy sector as a result of all that investment. So it was a really exciting time to think about what's possible. Right. We were speaking during Climate Week. My book, what if We Get It Right? Had just come out. It seemed like a very reasonable question to ask. Okay, we've got a little bit of momentum finally in climate policy in the U.S. what else could we achieve? And then, of course, after the election, very quickly, the federal policy landscape changed. It is important to say that a lot of states and city governments have been holding the line as much as they can. So when I'm thinking about where possibility lies in this moment, I'm thinking about a few different major categories. The first is the defensive work. Just like, not that glamorous to some people, doesn't seem very exciting. But that's the work of the organizations suing the federal government to make sure they follow things like the Endangered Species act, the Clean Air act, the endangerment finding of the epa, that greenhouse gases are in fact causing this public health crisis that we're experiencing as part of the ramifications of climate change. Right. All of that defense work that needs to happen to safeguard our bedrock environmental laws, to make sure things are still being enforced to the extent that's possible, preserving cleaner air and cleaner water. So that's one piece of the work, the defense. And then there's the, like, the political work. We have to make sure, obviously, that we are electing people who get the severity of the climate crisis. We find ourselves in, like climate deniers. Running our country is a literal recipe for disaster. So figuring out which elections people want to devote themselves to winning, to making sure people who have good climate and environmental policy platforms are getting elected up and down the ballot. I mean, when we think about city council, we're talking about whether we have municipal composting, are we investing in public transit, what are our building codes like? You know, all of these positions that we don't normally think that much about, but that's where the implementation is happening on climate policy and a lot of the investments, too. And then the third piece, after defense and winning some elections, is the work of dreaming. It's really so much a time for harnessing our imagination, for thinking about what we want to build next whenever we can pry that window of opportunity open. So there are a lot of people on the policy side thinking about, for example, Earthjustice. This nonprofit law firm has something called Project Phoenix, which is how do we rebuild from the ashes if this Republican administration is going to try to burn our environmental laws to the ground? What are we going to rebuild if we have the chance to, for better and much for the worse, start from scratch? And I think there's a lot of people at all different levels of community and state and regional and federal local trying to figure out what kind of world we really want to build since we are being backs against the wall, forced to consider the very fundamentals of that question.

[A]

Well, Ayanna, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today is that when we had our conversation in 2024, when I read your book, you frame things and think about things in alignment, but in a different way than I do. And I love the frame you just used, which is, you know, defense, offense, next steps. So let's start with defense. You know, we just saw last week the White House release its proposed budget, which would ask for a record $1.5 trillion for the Pentagon, paid for in part by taking an ax to, you know, the remaining environmental programs. And that includes cutting the EPA's budget in half. It's $15 billion in cuts to clean energy programs. It's eliminating the program that helps low income individuals cope with high utility bills at a time when extreme heat and extreme cold are deadly and energy costs are skyrocketing. And you just talked about the political and the policy, but also the role that we play at every level of government. On the defensive side, what are the foreseeable impacts of these proposed budget cuts and how do we think people make it out alive in terms of the political fights?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you laid out some of them. I mean, people are going to have trouble affording their energy bills. Right. A lot of attention has gone to, rightly so. The AI data centers taking up so much energy, much faster growing in energy demand than we can bring cleaner energy onto the grid in most cases. And so that demand is having an effect. But at the same time as prices are going up, the support system for people being able to afford those energy bills is being pulled away. So that is Absolutely. A double whammy. And I think unfortunately the answer to what to do about that is to be a good neighbor. I mean, I think we're seeing that be the lesson from city to city all over the US Right now, with Minneapolis being an example, that's really prominent to folks, right? Like how do we take care of each other in this moment? What does it mean to have each other's backs? And so whether that, you know, extreme weather is another scenario. We saw that certainly with Hurricane Helene, I think it was, that hit the south last year, two years ago, people who weren't expecting it suddenly having to like roll up their sleeves, help clear roads, whoever had a generator, becoming a community hub, right? That kind of really practical door to door, helping each other out, checking on each other, knowing which neighbors are the most vulnerable to power outages, et cetera, is going to be a big part of this. The mutual aid piece of this is going to grow in importance, I think, because our taxpayer dollars are all going to bombs right now. And so more broadly, I think a lot of the defense is happening in city government, at the state level, at the regional level, because the other piece, apart from just sort of changing the laws and firing a lot of the experts in our federal government who are holding all of this together or forcing them out, thousands of people across FEMA and NOAA and EPA and our national parks are gone, along with all of their knowledge that they did not get a chance to pass on. And now we're seeing the Forest Service be dismantled in this way, ending all these long term research programs, consolidating everything to Utah from D.C. knowing full well that will mean most of the people who work there will not go. So we're in this moment where it's this mix of not just changing the rules of the game, but actually not caring what they are. And the headline that upset me the most, there are many to choose from, obviously, but was just one about how environmental laws are no longer being enforced. So we do still have protections for clean air and clean water, but there's just no one out there enforcing them anymore. And to be honest, there's a limit to what we as individuals and citizens can do. Of course, pushing on our elected representatives to speak up, to do something about it, to protect their constituents, our communities, as always, is an important step, but it's certainly not enough to fully hold the line. Absolutely. A lot of losses happening right now.

[A]

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[C]

speed up this transition to clean energy. I mean, I was watching that election, the Public Utility Commission in Georgia, I was like, what's going to happen? Are we going to have this progress because we're electing people who care about this stuff?

[A]

Are you seeing glimmers of hope like that in other states? I know that a few years ago, the Texas, I think it's the railroad commission or something. It's a weird combination of people who are in charge of clean energy in Texas, but it's weird everything in Texas. But can you talk a little bit about other places where you're seeing this odd moment of hope incursion?

[C]

So, I mean, I think underlying all of this is the fact that clean energy, renewable energy, is cheaper in almost every scenario. Now at the utility level, we're talking about solar and wind in particular. And so the economic case being in favor of renewables is the game changer. Right. Public utility commissions have a lot easier time saying let's transition to solar away from coal when it's actually a good deal for the ratepayers. And with the efficiency of the clean energy technologies increasing so quickly, with battery storage becoming much more widely available at scale, you know, when the sun is not shining, we have batteries. When the wind is not blowing, maybe it's sunny. Right. Like we have these multiple sources now to get us through the days as weather changes. And that foundation of the clean energy transition, that economic reality of it is helping with a lot of this other shifts that we need to see. And the reason that the Trump administration is pushing so hard, like literally forcing coal plants to keep operating that want to shut down because it's no longer profitable for them to operate. The fact that he has to force these facilities to stay open is proof of the fact that this transition is inevitable. It's really just a matter of how quickly and how justly we're going to shift to clean energy. Because up and down the supply chain, the case is there, for the financial case is there.

[A]

You referenced a few minutes ago what was happening with the National Forest Service, and I think that's an incredibly important and unfortunately obscure example of what's happening. And I've been following it pretty closely. That and the fact that they're also trying to completely privatize weather. But I'll let you talk about the Forest Service to start, and then we'll talk about weather.

[C]

Yeah. So the Forest Service manages, I'm not sure how many millions of acres in the U.S. but a lot, I think more than our national park system. And one of the things that was so incredible, actually, early on in the Trump administration, as they were trying to dismantle the national parks, all the park rangers on social media, all the lovers of our national parks, across the political spectrum were like, absolutely not. Like, this is what we. This is ours as Americans, these parks. This is not like any one administration's whimsy. This is our legacy. This is our heritage. These places are really valuable and need to be protected and staffed. And that backlash from the public did result in a lot of park rangers getting their jobs back, more funding being restored, et cetera. But people are less clear about what the Forest Service is actually out there doing. But these are forests that are often logged, but the Forest Service decides who gets to log them and how, right? Whether it's clear cut, whether it's more targeted cutting, how often they can be cut, what the replanting looks like. But the Forest Service is also doing a ton of research about how forests work, about their role in the carbon cycle, about forest fires, what increases the risks of them, what can reduce those risks and keep people safer who live at that wildland urban interface, which is hilariously called the WUE wildland urban interface. But a lot of people do. And as we've seen in California, especially in the last year, these risks are only going up. And so to plan to close Forest Service research facilities across the country, centralize everything in Utah, drag all the employees, force them to relocate from D.C. to Utah, a state that has a terrible record of protecting public lands in Recent years whose senators were voting to, you know, putting amendments and legislation forward to privatize our public lands, to sell them off. This is something that I and many other people are really concerned about because a, it's absolutely a step backwards in terms of addressing climate change to stop properly managing our forests and it puts a lot of people at more risk. And once you stop doing those long term research studies, it's not like they're easy to start back up again, right? You're losing a lot of the scientific momentum and the institutional knowledge that is held in something in an agency like the Forest Service.

[A]

When you think about the anti intellectualism of this administration and the hostility to knowledge at the top of.

[C]

It's so inconvenient, isn't it? All these facts.

[A]

It's inconvenient and it's antithetical to who we've been. I mean, at the top of today's episode, I talk about Artemis 2 and what it says about us. How do you reconcile the thirst for knowledge that keeps the space program going compared to the decimation of research and knowledge about the things that keep us alive?

[C]

Maybe this is too cynical. Stop me.

[A]

You're on the wrong show if you don't want to be too cynical.

[C]

I know. I feel like part of the reason NASA is still funded is this interplanetary fantasy, right? This like we're gonna go to Mars, we're gonna essentially like colonize Mars. We're somehow gonna like live in one of. It's just not hospitable to human life. You know, it's ridiculously cold, there's no oxygen to breathe. But somehow that is a viable place to live relative to protecting the only planet with a climate that makes any sense for humans. Right. And so it's this like cowboy adventure, like what else can of mentality that I think has fueled that agency to continue getting support and funding from this administration. But NASA studies Earth too, and the climate here, right? And at least today their websites are still conveying accurate scientific information about climate, right? It is. Those scientists study all the planets, especially Earth, and we know a lot about how this planet works. And I'm curious about how the rest of our solar system and galaxy and beyond operate. So I'm not against that research happening. I think the wonder and curiosity that humans have is part of what makes us special, right? Wanting to understand all these things. And so having that curiosity about Mars but not about Earth is, you know, short sighted, the opposite of short sighted, ironically in the literal sense, but figuratively very short sighted. And then here we are with astronauts looking down on this planet, experiencing what has been come to be called the overview effect. For anyone who's seen the Earth from outer space as this blue marble zooming through the blackness, you realize that it's just one. There's this one of the astronauts up there right now, a black man whose name I don't remember. I was watching, yes, I was watching this video of him experiencing this wonder and awe, looking back on it and saying, it's all one thing, it's just one planet and we're sharing this and we're screwing it up. But like we have a lot of choices, we could do things differently, right? Even if we don't have a perfectly pristine world, impossible, given that we have 8 billion people on the planet all doing various things and like the history of industrialization, petrochemicals, et cetera, we could still have a much better version of the future than we're currently on track for. And there's something about seeing these glorious photographs of our home planet from outer space that really puts that into perspective, right? It is the perspective shift of, oh, like that's it, that's the whole shebang. And this corny slogan, there is no planet B is true.

[A]

Well, you mentioned petrochemicals, so I want to shift the conversation and talk about war. We know that war is a key driver of the crisis, part of climate crisis. And as we speak today, the us, Israel and Iran are engaged in a war that has spread across the Middle east, but is impacting Asia and Europe and Africa. We know that there's also still a very major act of war between Russia and Ukraine that's impacting oil and natural gas shipments for most of Europe. And then there's the debate about nuclear energy as a power source and alternative to the natural gas reliance that the nations have on Europe and Ukraine. And then the violence in Gaza continues. And you know, There was a 2025 report that indicated that the carbon footprint of Israel's war has exceeded that of many entire countries. And there was reporting by the Guardian that says, and here's a quote, a growing movement to hold businesses and states responsible for the climate and environmental costs of war and occupation, including the long term impact damage to land, food and water sources, as well as post conflict cleanup and reconstruction. And so I would love for you, as a climate scientist, as a person and as someone who's really been thinking about this, can you talk about including the human cost, the cost of war when it comes to this climate crisis, from emissions to Migration to water supplies. What's happening and how should we be held accountable?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, we just saw President Trump on social media talking about how this was going to be like power plant day and bridge day of blowing those things up, which is A, a war crime, but B, just horrifying when we think about petrochemicals are toxic to be just breathing unfiltered burning oil. At the very beginning of these bombings in Iran, it was literally raining black oil and soot from the sky as what was burning. Oil that was burning and rising as smoke was coming back down then as rain. Right. We know that's polluting ecosystems. We know that's polluting drinking water. We know that, that that's terrible for anybody's respiratory health there. Right. People are really sick from this already. And, of course, those environmental impacts will go on for decades, if not generations. And I'm glad you raised this topic because it's one that doesn't get talked about enough in environmental circles. I think we're nervous to talk about the effects on nature and the environment as somehow like, implying that they're more important than the impacts on human lives, than the death toll and all the other horrors, whether it be, you know, starvation, violence, et cetera. But the truth is, the environmental parts of war are also affecting people in the moment. Right. Whether the soil is poisoned and you don't have the ability to grow food anymore. I mean, there was a study in plos, the Public Library of Science, published last year, that crunched the numbers and found that the US Military is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases of any institution on Earth. And that's something we should keep in mind and something a lot of people have always been raising concern about and worrying about our impact as Americans on this planet through that specific lens, and certainly being concerned about their tax dollars being spent on something that's really not only harming humans, but also setting our entire planet on this really dangerous trajectory. And you mentioned impacts on water. I mean, there's talk about targeting desalination facilities, Right? That's. That's the drinking water for people in a desert area that can no longer otherwise get people drinking water. So if you're polluting the groundwater and then bombing the desalination facilities, obviously this is a human rights crisis waiting to happen. And so these are just so deeply intertwined, the environmental and the human costs of war.

[A]

Part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is the complexity of how you think about this, these issues and the interconnectedness as you just Pointed out war has a cost on not just now, but what comes next. Similarly, we know that immigration is affected by the climate crisis. There was a recent feature from the nonprofit Documented, it's an immigrant serving newsroom. And it indicated that the climate crisis is already a major driver, or at least a significant driver of migration to the United States. States. You've got weather events like flooding that impact the habitability of communities in Latin America and Africa and Asia. It's destroying people's livelihoods. But there is no designated climate refugee status. And we are living in a moment where this authoritarian regime has a deep hostility to any form of immigration. And as you described the backlash and the follow on cost of petrochemical poisonings, we have a follow on cost for the weather events being created by climate change. And so you mentioned early on you talked about what's next. What do you think our next president, should they be someone of rational humanity? What should our next president prioritize when it comes to addressing climate related migration?

[C]

I mean, I think the great irony of this particular immigration moment we find ourselves in, which is increasingly, as you pointed out, migration is being driven by climate factors. Right around one quarter of humanity is already dealing with drought and the associated food insecurity. By 2070, something like 1 fifth of the planet could be too hot for normal human life. So that's billions of people having to relocate. And then on top of that, sea level rise could displace hundreds of millions of people this century. And we're just not prepared for anything at this sort of scale. Even in the US it's something like 13 million Americans are going to have to relocate because of sea level rise. Right? We're not prepared for that. We're experiencing these droughts in the US, wildfires causing people to have to move as well. All of these things, not to mention like hurricanes, et cetera. So people are going to need to move around. And ignoring that or failing to plan for that just means it's going to be chaotic, which of course means people with the fewest resources are going to have the hardest time adjusting, adapting, relocating. And so the injustice of the climate crisis will only deepen. I think the irony of destabling other places, destabilizing the global climate, destabilizing, you know, governments in other countries, the droughts leading to crop failures, leading to people having to migrate, we could just address the problem and reduce the need for people to leave. Because as you well know, like most of the times, people don't want to leave their communities, their families, their countries. Their cultures, but they have to figure out a way to survive. I mean, we're even seeing this in Europe where, you know, a few years ago there were only over 60,000 people died in a heat wave because Europe is not prepared for 100 degree Fahrenheit temperatures. There isn't air conditioning in a lot of those places. I mean, the Alps should not be experiencing that kind of heat. Right. They're not prepared for it. So I feel like I wrote a piece two years ago for Wired magazine. They asked me to put together a little bit of a prediction for 2020, and mine was called the Climate Driven Diaspora is here and extreme weather will be driving more and more people from their homes. And I feel like whoever is the next president needs to a, just acknowledge that reality and B, come up with a plan that is like, built within in that context. It's one of those. I mean, the more distance I have from the Al Gore film Inconvenient Truth, the more that title just really nails it for me. Right? Like, of course we don't want to be dealing with climate change. It's wildly inconvenient to have to fundamentally change our society, economy and culture, to acknowledge that our world as we knew it is different. Like the past is no longer a good proxy for the future in terms of the environment. So I not only hope, but I plan to do a lot of work to ensure that we are electing people who get it, who are going to listen to scientists, to listen to their own researchers in the federal government and put together policies that are based on this reality.

[A]

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[C]

Yeah, I mean, there's environmental racism holding us back in terms of the communities that are dealing with the brunt of the impacts of pollution and extreme weather. In New York City, for example, where I'm from, the public housing is often built in the most flood prone areas. You know, land values have a lot to do with who lives there. The history of redlining has a lot to do with who lives where. Poor neighborhoods tend to have way fewer trees, which makes them 5, 10 degrees hotter in the summer than areas that have more tree canopy. So there's all of that kind of stuff happening. There's whether or not people can afford air conditioning, whether people have clean drinking water, which truly boggles my mind that in the United States of America in the year of 2026, people don't have clean drinking water in more places than any of us would like to imagine. So there's that part of it. But then there's also just like regular racism, which means that, so environmental racism sees certain people, certain communities, certain races as disposable. Like no big deal if they have to deal with all this stuff. But then just straight up, regular racism means that people like me or you may not be welcomed into the conversation, may not have their ideas, the solutions, the proposals they want to put forward based in the knowledge of our communities, be taken seriously. Right. And if we're going to solve the largest challenge humanity has ever faced, which is stabilizing our climate, how are we going to do that without the brain power of people of color? We're going to need all hands on deck for this. Right. And especially when on the flip side of who created the problem versus who's bearing the brunt of it, there's also the who cares the most about being part of the solution? And we know that polling from the Yale center for Climate Communication and George Mason universities, They've been tracking this for almost two decades now. Their polling has showed that in the US it is about 70% of Asian Americans who are concerned about the impacts of climate change, 65% of black people, Latino people, and something like, like 37% of white people. And that's been declining for the white population in the US and so when we think about, like, who's most concerned, who's most likely to want to get involved and it's not just because communities of color are more impacted. It's because of a more communal mindset, a more collective understanding of we're in this together, like, we gotta do something about this together. I have a role to play here. And so I found that to be the most interesting finding, especially for Latino communities around the country, is that this communal sense of responsibility is driving this desire to be part of solutions. So the fact that racism leads people to believe that people of color care less about the environment is yet another layer on top of all of this, who is welcome into the conversation and resourced to put forward the kinds of changes that we need to see. There's one other thing, sorry, Stacey, that's worth mentioning on this front, and that's, as you'll remember, the day one executive order from the Trump administration was this sort of like anti diversity, equity and inclusion order. And it called out all that stuff. Canceled. But it specifically called out environmental justice. It was the only specific call out, as if that were a particular affront to this administration, the idea that no one should have to bear disproportionate burden of climate impacts or pollution impacts because of their race or their economic class. Right. And that was very telling. Calling environmentalists enemies of the state. Right. Targeting them with surveillance. It's all these kinds of things that obviously make it much harder to stay organized. In this, the first Trump administration, you had all of these philanthropists funding climate works, double down, speak out against the administration, speak up for climate solutions, and we don't have that this time. People are really scared of bringing a spotlight onto themselves, their organizations, their work, because we have such a vindictive group of people in the White House and in Congress. So obviously all of that makes this much, much harder. But the thing that's important to understand, of course, is that we have the solutions we need. We know how to transition to renewable energy, we know how to invest in public transit, we know how to green our buildings, we know how to grow our food in better ways. There's not a lot of big high tech secrets for how do we do this. We don't have to wait for fusion or some next generation of nuclear. That stuff will be developed. But we could just do all this now if we had the political will to do that. Which is why focusing on electing people who get it is obviously a really big part of the puzzle. So instead of on day one, firing anyone with environmental justice in their titles, closing all programs that have that in their titles, we can have someone who brings back the very basic idea that all Americans deserve access to clean air and clean water, which polls very well across the political spectrum, actually.

[A]

Well, as you just pointed out, I mean, it's basic and fundamental. And we're not only ignoring the very real historical legacy of environmental racism. I worked for the newly created Office of Environmental justice under Bill Clinton back in the 1990s. And the fact that, that we knew even then that this was one of the ways to save the world, it's not shocking. It is further proof of the fascist ideology that undergirds this authoritarian regime. But I want to focus for a second on your specific expertise, which is that as much as we can see the destruction right in front of us because of what's happening on land, and you're a marine biologist, and so I want to give you a chance to talk about what are the most pressing issues that we're not paying attention to when it comes to our oceans. And how is your work further complicated by the fact that we can't always see what's happening below the water?

[C]

Yeah, the salty side of things in that regard, too. I mean, I can just cheat a little bit. Please up the stats in my own book here and hold up the book

[A]

book for the camera to see the

[C]

paperback with the new gold cover. What if we get it right? Visions of Climate Futures.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

It's been always really exciting and also frustrating to me that people leave the ocean out of the climate conversation so often. I mean, I'm guilty of it too. So many of the examples I've given so far, apart from sea level rise, have been land based. But the ocean absorbs something like 90% of the heat that's trapped by all these greenhouse gases, all this carbon pollution blanketing the atmosphere. The Earth would be like 65 degrees hotter if it weren't for the ocean absorbing all that heat. Like, talk about an unlivable climate. Like, the ocean is the thing that's buffering us from maintaining our ability to live here at all. I think it's really important to think about the ocean not just as the thing that's absorbed about 30% of the carbon dioxide, 90% of the heat so far, but also the place to look for climate solutions. It's not just a victim. There's recent analysis that shows about 35% of our climate solutions can be found in the ocean. So whether that's scaling offshore renewable energy, which is primarily wind right now, which we know is a major bullseye on it by the Trump administration, actually like paying companies a billion dollars to not Develop the leases that they got under the Biden administration, which is a whole other horror we can talk about. But things like offshore renewable energy, decarbonizing, shipping, eating low carbon seafood, conserving and restoring coastal E systems, which is always my favorite climate solution, all that kind of stuff, that adds up to about 35% of the carbon pollution mitigation that we need. A third of our solution can be found in the oceans. And we talk a lot about forests. They had a lot of love for all their photosynthesis, but that's also happening in the ocean. And those coastal ecosystems like wetlands and manGroves can sequester three or five times more carbon per acre than a tropical forest on land. So there's so much potential there. Also oyster reefs and mangroves and wetlands and coral reefs. They're protecting our shoreline from these storms that are intensifying because of climate change. Providing food also, especially for low income coastal communities that may depend on that for their food security more directly. Not just in the United States, of course, but globally, we're talking about half a billion people depending on seafood for their basic nutrition needs. So there's just so much potential there. Actually that's under appreciated. And we know one of my other favorite facts. I'll stop here. But every dollar spent on reef and wetland restoration achieves more than $7 in direct flood reduction benefits. So again, the economic case is basically always there for doing conservation, for investing in the clean energy transition. It just makes sense to do the mitigation work and to really focus on adaptation as opposed to just rebuilding in the same way, in the same spot, without taking into consideration the ways in which the world has changed.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Ayanna One of the important parts of our show is homework, and you're gonna be the one giving the assignment. So I love this, the paperback edition of your book what if We Get It Right?

[C]

Coming out this month, April 14th will be on bookshelves.

[A]

There you go. It's a fantastic book. So that's one part of the homework, clearly. But you know, in the book you imagine the possibilities of a future where if we take the necessary steps to address climate change, we can fix things. So what's one thing that the person sitting here, we know she's gonna vote. We know he's going to take his personal responsibility to recycle. But what's one thing that we can do for the future that helps us take this opposite approach that you take, which is that we imagine what happens if we get it right?

[C]

There's not really a single generic answer to that question. Yes, engaging as a citizen and a voter, as you mentioned, that's a given for listeners of this show. But it is true, on the other hand, that there are something like 15 million Americans who were registered to vote and had environment as their number one voting issue who did not vote in the last election. And we know that a lot of races are decided by tens, hundreds, a few thousand votes. And so having 10 million people who are already registered, which is hard to get people and already care about environment, number number one, which is hard to get people to prioritize, are just not casting their ballots is a huge challenge. So there's a wonderful organization called Environmental Voter Project that's doing voter mobilization specifically for that demographic. I've done a lot of volunteering with them. I was, I think, the first donor to their, like, go fund me or whatever crowdfunding campaign who wasn't personally a friend or relative of the founder, Nathaniel Stinnett. Because I was like, this is a great idea. Like, of course we need these people. Vot. And so they're interesting because they're active in every single election. They're active in 20 states. And they're not just focused on the presidential. They're building that muscle of helping people become super voters so that the campaigns start to engage them as well. And they've moved turnout by percentage points in these elections, which are all decided by pretty few percentage points, shockingly to me. So that would be one thing I would say is check out Environmental Voter projects and see if you can get involved and volunteer there. But when people ask me what they can do, I'm often thinking of a follow up question to them which is, I don't know, what are you good at? Right. Like, how can you leverage your superpowers here instead of doing this generic list that we're offering to everybody, which is of course we should vote and donate and protest and spread the word and think about, about how we use our dollars. Yes, do all those things. But Stacy, if you and I were doing the same thing, if a teacher and a nurse and a lawyer and a homemaker and an artist and a graphic designer and a computer programmer were all doing the same thing for climate, that means we're not going to get there. So what we need is people to look at what I call this climate Venn diagram of what are you good at? That one circle, what work needs doing and what brings you joy. Importantly, so that we can stay in the work and feel that sense of gratification to keep us going. And the what are you good at is, you know, your skills, also what resources you have access to. If someone knows a bunch of billionaires, that's going to be a very different answer to what they can do than if it's, you know, someone living in the hood where I grew up. Right. Your skills, your resources, your networks. Because like, we hear this word influencer tossed around a lot, but we're all influencers on some scale to the people in our lives. And I don't think you take seriously enough how much the things that we say, the lifestyles we model, the choices we make are really visible to our friends and family and communities. And for the what work needs doing. That second circle of it, I would encourage people to look at an organization called Project Drawdown. Drawdown.org has super scientifically rigorous resources on all of these climate solutions that are proven. The ones that we should maybe be a little suspicious of that aren't proven, that people are telling us are the answer. Drawdown.org has this incredible solutions explorer which I feel is really helpful because people, people want to know like how can, which solutions are promising and can they get involved with. But a lot of it is about finding your crew, right? Like not about everyone doing it alone, but finding an organization to plug into, you know, your, your church, your school, your neighborhood and your place where you work. Like you're, you're the company people work for. Like, like these companies all have a lot of room for improvement. So being part of that change of corporate practices from the inside can be very powerful. So Environmental Voter project is number one. Number two is do your own climate Venn diagram. There's a worksheet for this if people want it on GetItRight Earth, which is the website for my book and the podcast of the same name. What if we get it right? Having all these conversations with experts who have helped me answer that question. And then the third thing that people don't think about very much is where you have your money. If you have any amount of retirement savings and it's not divested from fossil fuels, you're investing a significant portion of your resources in expanding our fossil fuel drilling and infrastructure and that can have a worse impact on the planet than all the vegan bike riding lifestyle you can live. And I think people sort of often lose track of that spectrum of impact of what has the most impact. And making sure your retirement funds, any investment funds that you have are divested is really important. So there's websites, there's Bank Forward, there's Green Portfolio bank for Good. Check those websites out and they'll give you resources for making that shift. And that's the kind of thing you do once takes a few days. It's kind of a pain in the butt. There's a few forms to fill out to move your money, but after that you can just know that you're not funding the further perpetration of the problem anymore and that you're part of the solutions it might be worth mentioning to your listeners that the book launch on April 14 is also going to be a set of climate dance parties across the country. My personal I didn't maybe model this perfectly in this interview, but my personal motto is to take climate change seriously, but not take yourself too seriously. And so my version of this for the paperback launch is to host dance parties in aquariums and natural history museums across the country. So we're launching at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. We'll be going to the Monterey Bay Aquarium, the San Diego Aquarium, the La Brea Tar Pits, and museum at the LA Natural History Museum, coming back to the American Museum of Natural History in New York and then ending in Maine at the Wolf's Neck Center. So over the next few weeks, if people want to maybe dress as their favorite climate solution, meet your new climate bestie on the dance floor. Just like blow off some steam. Meet some of the local organizations doing great work and have a good time. Then the information for all those parties. The tour stops are at GetItRight Earth Tour.

[A]

Look, I've already we sang together, we can dance together.

[C]

We will be playing Prince at the dance parties.

[A]

If you didn't, I would have to disavow you. So yeah, phew. Thank you so much Ayanna. This is fantastic.

[C]

My pleasure. Thanks for having Foreign.

[A]

Assembly Required is here to help us understand what's at stake, what's happening, and then how we take action wherever we are. Because every decision to resist adds up. So first, let's be curious. Pick up a copy of Dr. Johnson's Smart Action oriented book, what if We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Future. Next, we're going to solve some problems. As Dr. Johnson noted in a recent op ed, you can make a difference by acting locally. So join a local climate group like Sunrise Movement for Youth, Third act for Seniors and Citizens, Climate Lobby, 350. Org, Surfrider, or the Sierra Club for Everyone. Together you can let your state and local electeds know it is time for city governments to take the lead when it comes to protecting our climate and environment. And you can demand that candidates for local and state office commit to supporting pro environmental policies. In addition, the fossil fuel industry is often inadvertently financed by us through our investment portfolios. So make sure to take a closer look at where your money is and divest it from fossil fuel fuels. And finally, visit the Environmental Voter [e-mail] to donate and get involved. And lastly, I need you to help me do some good. As I mentioned at the top, the 10 Steps campaign in partnership with the National Domestic Workers alliance, the nea, the aft, SEIU and others have launched the Read Them Home initiative. It's a 12 hour vigil that we held last week and a month long activation to call attention to the scourge of family detention centers. What do we do? We read books to kids. So we're encouraging participants to pick up your favorite children's book or children's story, record yourself reading and post it to social media with the hashtag readthemhome. Because every child deserves their own story and array of hope. So visit readthemhome.org to learn more and find out how you can participate wherever you are. Assembly Required continues to grow its audience, but we need your help and your reviews. We reach more people when you tell others about us or when you talk about us, so add us to your feed. Make sure you share your favorite episode and subscribe on all of your favorite platforms and then boost our visibility by rating the show and leaving a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, wherever you get your podcast. And always check out my substack Assembly Notes where we dive deep and where I share more of my thoughts on how we understand and then fight back against this authoritarian regime in whatever guise it takes. Thank you to the thousands of you who have signed up for the 10 Steps Steps campaign at 10stepscampaign.org Please visit the site especially if you haven't been there in a minute, and look for local events near you from our partner organizations. We have a whole new feature that I think you'll love. Plus we offer information in English and Spanish to help you recognize what's happening, activate around solutions and build a better America. Okay, that wraps up today's episode of Assembly Request with Stacey Abrams. So do good out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mumtha. For production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.