How Trumpism Might Survive the Fall of Trump (w/ Eugene Daniels and Symone Sanders-Townsend)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams

Episode: How Trumpism Might Survive the Fall of Trump
Date: August 4, 2026
Guests: Simone Sanders Townsend (host, The Weekend on MSNow), Eugene Daniels (journalist and MSNow correspondent)
Theme: Examining the resilience of “Trumpism” beyond Donald Trump as a person, the erosion of democratic institutions, current and future threats, and practical strategies for civic engagement and defense of democracy.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Stacey Abrams sits down with Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels to discuss how Trumpism—an ideology and set of political practices—may long outlive Donald Trump himself. The conversation ranges from personal experiences engaging with young activists, the collapse of institutional guardrails, and the dangerous drift toward competitive authoritarianism, to voting rights, the complicity and paralysis of Republican leadership, and necessary action steps for listeners concerned about democracy’s future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Building an Information Ecosystem & Platforming Diverse Voices

• Stacey Abrams opens with reflections on how algorithms curate our information and why it's important to amplify voices across different backgrounds and platforms.
• Quote: “We now live in the age of the algorithm. A piece of code deciding what we know and who we hear it from... [the algorithm] isn't trying to make us smarter. It's programmed to make us satisfied rather than curious. And I don't like it.” (03:09, Stacey Abrams)

2. Generational Lessons & The New Resistance

• Abrams shares her work with youth activists through her “10 Steps” campaign, highlighting the energy and diversity of a new generation fighting for freedom and power, even while facing disillusionment (06:15).
• The panel reflects on historic cycles of resistance and repression, drawing analogies to Reconstruction and noting that for many in their 30s, this is the first real encounter with rollbacks of civil rights.

3. Corruption & Power: The Justice Department and Congressional Complicity

• The guests discuss recent confirmation hearings, particularly Todd Blanche, highlighting how congressional Republicans continue to enable Trump’s abuses rather than provide oversight.
• Quote: “From the beginning...when Senator Tillis...said he will not support anyone that excuses or makes excuses for the people on January 6th. Well, that's when I knew this was a farce...At every single turn, Todd Blanche has made very clear...that they intend to support the people that supported the president.” (10:16, Simone Sanders Townsend)
• Panelists argue that the Republican Party’s current leadership is driven by a naked quest for power, not constitutional duty.
• Quote: “If they allow it to happen, when they actually are constitutionally...given the job to act as a balance to Donald Trump or any president, and they're choosing not to, that means they're okay with what's happening.” (14:46, Eugene Daniels)

4. Trump as “Permission Structure”

• Abrams pushes back against the idea that Trump is singularly powerful; rather, she suggests that he offers permission for the party to do what many wanted anyway.
• Quote: “[Trump is] really just the allower in chief... He lets them be who they want to be and gives them cover to do what they would do anyway.” (17:58, Stacey Abrams)
• The panel discusses the future: what happens to Trumpism after Trump? The consensus is that the structure and incentives built to support Trump—and the raw pursuit of power—will persist.

5. The Endurance of Trumpism & Raw Power

• The guests cite the Heritage Foundation’s Project 2025 as an embodiment of broader Trumpist ambitions: to remake governing, not just elect a man.
• “They have this Republican Party apparatus, I think, has made a calculation that raw power...is what matters most. Character, people damaged, like, whatever else be damned.” (25:08, Simone Sanders Townsend)
• Even once Trump leaves, panelists warn, these altered incentives and permissive attitudes toward anti-democratic actions will remain.

6. Erosion of Voting Rights & Competitive Authoritarianism

• Abrams introduces the concept of “competitive authoritarianism”—a system where democratic institutions are subverted from within to serve authoritarian goals (29:58).
• The group analyzes alarming cases like the South Carolina voter whose IP was turned over to the FBI. These acts, while overlooked, signal a worrying normalization of state-enforced voter intimidation (34:16, Simone Sanders Townsend).
• Historical Parallels: Discussion touches on the DOJ’s abuse of power, Trump’s direct interference, and how current tactics echo the darkest periods of American state repression.

7. Accountability, Lowered Bars, and the Flawed “Heroes” Narrative

• There’s criticism of the tendency to lionize officials (e.g., Brad Raffensperger, Brian Kemp, Mike Pence) simply for refusing to overtly commit treason while otherwise enacting sweeping voter suppression or aiding Trump’s broader agenda.
• Quote: “We are lionizing people who simply said, I won’t commit treason... then used it as a proxy to make it illegal to get water when you're standing in lines in the state of Georgia.” (41:36, Stacey Abrams)
• Abrams champions raising expectations for institutional and individual behavior, demanding more than minimal compliance with the law from so-called defenders of democracy.

8. What Should Democrats Do With Power?

• Question from Eugene Daniels (48:53): Should Democrats, if they regain power, play hardball like Republicans, or uphold institutional norms?
• Abrams contends this is a false binary; instead, she argues for imaginative, intentional use of power to rebuild a better, more inclusive system, starting with maximizing turnout and grassroots involvement at every level (50:05–54:46).
  • Quote: “We spend so much of our time arguing over the labels as opposed to arguing over the solution sets.” (53:02, Stacey Abrams)
  • Warns that the right is preparing at the state level—Democrats cannot ignore state/local power in between federal cycles.

9. Action Steps & “Homework” for Listeners

• Simone Sanders Townsend’s homework (55:45): “Familiarize yourself immediately with who exactly is on the ballot in your state, in your district this November... Knowledge is power.”
• Eugene Daniels’ homework (56:45): Reject purity tests within the coalition, especially during primaries; after intra-party debates, focus on uniting to face the real anti-democratic threat.
• Quote: “After that’s done, you have to figure out who the real opponent is.” (57:29, Eugene Daniels)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My for the streets answer is: this is bullshit. My elevated answer is, are we not... Why are we surprised?” –Simone Sanders Townsend (10:16)
• “They demonize us, then they litigate, then they legislate, and they are on the legislation faction. They are going to do what they can to remove our power before we get to 28, because this is about— as Simone said— this is about power.” –Stacey Abrams (53:27)
• “[Lionizing] people who simply said, I won’t commit treason...then used it as a proxy to make it illegal to get water when you're standing in lines in the state of Georgia...” –Stacey Abrams (41:36)
• “We have to all, raise...our expectations of what is required in this moment.” –Eugene Daniels (45:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:22: Abrams introduces episode theme and guests
• 06:15: Reflections on youth activism, generational cycles, and resistance
• 10:16: Congressional complicity in DOJ confirmation (Todd Blanche)
• 17:58: Trump as “allower in chief”, permission structure
• 21:18: The future of Trumpism post-Trump
• 29:58: The U.S. as a “competitive authoritarian” system; focus on voting rights
• 34:16: Federal targeting of a South Carolina voter; normalization of intimidation
• 41:36: Critiquing the lionization of “resisters” who otherwise suppress voting
• 48:53: Debate: Should Democrats “play dirty” or uphold norms?
• 54:54: Listener homework—how to seize and wield power
• 57:29: The risk of intra-party division and need for strategic coalition

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Takeaways & Action Items

• Know Your Ballot: Use your county’s election commission website to learn all the local and state offices up for election.
• No Purity Tests: After primaries, unite to defeat anti-democratic forces, regardless of intra-party disagreements.
• Build, Don’t Just Resist: Rather than copying Republican tactics or clinging to past norms, propose and organize for new, imaginative approaches to rebuild democracy.
• Stay Engaged Locally: Most anti-democratic maneuvers and real power decisions are now happening at the state level—get involved beyond federal races.

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Resources & Further Engagement

• Check your ballot: Visit your local or state election commission website.
• Get involved: Find and volunteer for a candidate or a cause that inspires you, especially at the state/local level.
• Support youth-led organizing in the South: Learn more at msvotes.org
• Keep questioning: Follow both activist and journalist voices (including the Clock It podcast) for updates and analysis.

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Original tone: Candid, passionate, urgent, with moments of humor and camaraderie among the panelists—grounded in realpolitik but determinedly optimistic about organized action to resist authoritarian drift.

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For listeners who haven’t tuned in, this episode is a rigorous, insightful, and actionable conversation about why democratic backsliding is a collective problem, not a personal one—and why the fight for democracy relies on ordinary people doing extraordinary things, right now.

Transcript

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

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[Tommy Vietor]

com hey, it's Tommy from Pot Save America and Pot Save the world. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C. with even more podcasts, panels and workshops. Plus there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms. No matter which way they go, get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount too.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

See you there.

[Stacey Abrams]

Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host Stacey Abrams. At the end of today's episode, I'm going to remind you to like, subscribe and share this episode and this podcast, but I wanted to read a comment from one of you at the top of the show today. OmanKnight7199 wrote Stacy, I don't understand why your channel doesn't get more attention, but I found my way back because I watched Heather Cox Richardson's recent interview with Mr. Wickler and I want to thank you for discussing the events in India. So first of all, my thanks to Roman Knights 7199 for coming back. However, the question she raised made me think about three issues. One why I had Heather and Ben on in successive episodes, 2. Why Ben and Heather were on a different podcast together and three why understanding 1 and 2 can help save America. You see, we spend a lot of time bemoaning the fall of media, and there are a lot of us trying to keep information front and center. We do it in different ways from very varied backgrounds. Personally, I'm not a commentator or a journalist. I'm a number of things, but neither one of those. My podcast, though, exists because it's one of the ways I can learn more from really smart people. It's how I can share what I know and most importantly, how I can help others get engaged. We now live in the age of the algorithm. A piece of code deciding what we know and who we hear it from. That algorithm isn't trying to make us smarter. It's programmed to make us satisfied rather than curious. And I don't like it. So part of my mission here at Assembly Required is platforming people with their own very impressive reach. Heather Cox Richardson does not need my help to reach an audience, but she understands that we can't keep talking to only the people we know and expect to expand our shared fight for democracy. Ben Wickler is on a book tour about how he too, can help shape the public narrative about what's possible. And he's talking to anybody who will listen. And so when they meet on a separate show, whether they invite me or not, that's wonderful, because another group whose algorithm is different will get to learn from both. So I want more people to hear from our guests on topics that range from the origins of bluegrass and its commentary on social justice to how we confront white Christian nationalism and protonatalism. I am privileged to have the opportunity to talk about all of those things and more on this channel. So if you want to help build more than an echo chamber, help us all build an equal ecosystem by following me, following them, and telling us more about what you need to know. It's going to take more than a village. So let's get to work. To that end, joining me today for our conversation is Ms. Now contributor and host of the Weekend on MSNow, Simone Sanders Townsend and journalist and MSNow correspondent Eugene Daniels. Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. Welcome to assembly required.

[Eugene Daniels]

Greetings, Stacy. You know what? I've been waiting to get my invitation to assembly require Eugene. So I am.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

This is my second time to be here.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, excuse me. I'm gonna need to speak to management. You know what? I think Stacy is still harboring some feelings. She was amazing. When I was a fellow at Harvard, she came and did my class and they asked her all the very hard questions. It was amazing.

[Stacey Abrams]

Let's be clear. Let's be clear, Simone. You urged them to ask me certain questions, and when they were not sufficiently probing, you augmented their intellectual discourse.

[Eugene Daniels]

The students told me privately that they would like to know if Stacey Abrams is running for president. And I said, well, you all gonna need to ask Stacey Abrams.

[Stacey Abrams]

And this is why I harbor resentment.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Exactly. It's not what she was there for.

[Stacey Abrams]

Look, it was an extraordinary opportunity to spend time with those students, and it's one of the reasons this show matters so much to me. In fact, this past weekend, 10 Steps campaign, which is this project I started last year, looking at authoritarianism, we invited more than 70 young people from around the country to come to Decatur, Georgia, and meet each other, but get steeped in the 10 steps to freedom and Power. I have rarely been as excited about what's to come as I was when I got to talk to these kids. These young people, they were between the ages of 15 and 27. They were digital organizers. They were students who were setting up food banks on their campuses. There's a group that Black Youth Empowerment Network. I mean, it was just a really diverse group of young people. Racially diverse, ethnically diverse, geographically diverse, gender identity, diverse. It was all of the things that seemed to terrify this regime and this administration. And personally, it made me very, very happy. Because the resistance continues.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah. I mean, it has to. I mean, I don't know. Were they not. First of all, this is amazing, but were they not disillusioned? I feel. I don't know. I feel like the resistance is absolutely continuing. I feel like, yes, the people still have the power, but, oh, my goodness, the state is doing every. And by the state, I mean, the government is doing everything they can to try to crush the will of the people.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yeah, but hasn't that always been the case? I mean, this is one of the things. Stacey, I know you deal with this a lot, and we talk about this a lot. Simone and I, on our podcast and, like, in our offices together, is that this is not the first time that the federal government in this country, not other countries in this country, has done everything it can to make sure that marginalized people do not continue on in their progress. Right. And so the thing that I'm always.

[Eugene Daniels]

Oh, reconstruction. I mean, let's be very clear. This is another post reconstruction period.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's why I'm so curious about the young folks, is because this is kind of our first time. Right. I'm in my 30s, Simone's in her 30s, and these young people, this is the first time we have been faced with this in a real and serious way. And the question that was answered by our parents and our grandparents and all the folks before that who had been through something similar, sometimes worse, is, what are you going to do when it gets hard? And what does that look like? And how are you going to stand up? And so, like, were the kids. Did they feel disillusioned? Did they feel passionate? Do you.

[Stacey Abrams]

It's a. Both. And. And I love the way you both framed it. Because one of the issues, in fact, the repeated question I got without Simone's prompting of these young people, one question was, how do you deal with how hard it is? And it was asked by three different young people, different age brackets, different racial backgrounds. But each of them said, you know, you've stumbled, you've had challenges. This stuff is hard. Like, how do you keep doing it? And it's hard to have a public therapy session. But I would explain, like, I am the daughter of people who are in the civil rights movements. I'm the granddaughter of folks who were involved in. And my grandfather, my mom's father, he was born 25 years after the end of slavery. So he was born just past reconstruction ending. And so the framework I gave them is nothing's new under the sun, but our responses have to be new to the moment and that our personal obligation is to understand what we face. And I think that's where the excitement comes in, because this is a group of young people who see how terrible things are. They are the first generation to lose civil rights since. In their lifetime, since reconstruction. And I'd love to come to both of you because part of the loss of that, that agency, part of the loss of civil rights is this abuse of power that we're seeing from this regime. And I don't call it an administration because it's broader than who sits in the Oval Office. This is a regime that has taken over state and local government as well as the federal government, but it's led from the top. And this week we saw that Todd Blanche, his confirmation, which has been on again, off again, is back on again because the two senators who said that they weren't going to let him get through unless he proved that he wasn't going to use this retaliation fund, he wrote them a letter on a sticky note saying we're not gonna do it tomorrow. And they've now given him his blessing. And I'd love to get your reaction to how this corruption and abuse of power speaks to the moment that we're in.

[Eugene Daniels]

My for the streets answer is this is bullshit. Okay? My elevated answer is, are we not? Why are we surprised? From the beginning, from the beginning, when Senator Tillis, specifically Senator Tillis, was making a hey. About the slush fund or the anti weaponization fund, but it was a slush fund, as I like to call it, and said he doesn't want to, he will not support anyone that excuses or makes excuses for the people on January 6th. Well, that's when I knew this was a farce. Because Todd Blanche, he was in the Justice Department, the deputy Attorney General, when the president pardoned all the folks on January 6th who participated, who were convicted. So at every single turn, Todd Blanche has made very clear, the president has made very clear that they intend to support the people that supported the president. And the president views the people that took up arms against the Capitol on January 6th to stop. Stop the certification of ballots, who, frankly, in another time, we might call them treasonous terrorists that took up arms against the government. The president thinks those are his people to the point where he let them out of. He let them out of jail. He made sure to wipe their little records clean. And now the $1.8 billion fund was trying to give them a little cash in their pocket. And so for me, I just. I'm wondering what it's gonna take. And Eugene, his office is next to where we have offices next to each other.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

It's dangerous.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yes. Except I have my own office. He shares, but he has a better couch than me.

[Stacey Abrams]

It's true.

[Eugene Daniels]

It's true. It's true. The couch is nice. And so oftentimes, I'm in his office like, what is going on? And he's like, why are you so. You know, the folks have. These Republicans have yet to actually stand up to the president. And I'm wondering, what's it gonna take? Senator Cornyn got his butt whooped in the primary on account of Trump. Thom Tillis is not running for reelection because he feels like the party is so out of step to where he is, yet they can't even muster the courage to stop what they know is an unqualified person to sit at the top of the Justice Department.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

If these folks, if these senators were serious about this, if they were serious about the DOJ being independent, that these things could not happen, they would have had issues with the DOJ starting on January 20th at 1201, in 2025, when Donald Trump put his hand on that Bible, said he was gonna be the president, because it was already clear where this was going, right? And so this pretending that under Todd Blanche, it would be any different, that he doesn't work for President Trump, just like Pam Bonney did. We've seen it. It's not an opinion. We saw the president give her orders via Truth Social. Now, apparently, he was trying to DM her, but he don't know how his own. He doesn't know how his Own service works, but there we go. And I think there was this conversation a few months ago that was like the YOLO caucus and on my show and on Simone's show, I think, and others, but definitely ours. We were like, I don't believe that these folks are YOLO caucusing, that at the end of the day, they are going to stand up to Donald Trump, and if they do, it won't be standing up for long. And I think that is something that has been frustrating to a lot of Republicans that I talk to, but I'm not sure what they expect. Donald Trump runs the Republican Party. Donald Trump at this point runs Congress, Right? Whether you're. Especially in the House, where Mike Johnson kind of. I think when we look at the list of speakers of the House in history, Mike Johnson will go down as one of the weakest. And this is from folks within his own conference who say that. And in the Senate, he's constantly fighting with John Thune. Their relationship has basically ruined because he doesn't wanna pass the SAVE Act. John Thune says the votes aren't there. And so the corruption that you're talking about, Leader Abrams, the idea that folks were gonna stand up to him, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist in the electoral argument, it doesn't exist in the legislative, and sometimes it doesn't exist in the judicial. And I think after January 6, when everybody backed up, away from him, right, they all said that day, the Republicans, like, we're moving on. Mitch McConnell said something to the the president is liable for what happened today. He is to blame, both real and in theory. And then for a few months, I was like, wait, maybe this is. Maybe they're moving past him. But then Kevin McCarthy went, kissed the ring, and then it went from there. And in that moment when that happened, we saw that very awkward picture of the two of them next to each other, it became very clear that no matter what, Donald Trump was gonna have his hold of the Republican Party. And they weren't going to be able to do anything to stop him, because they would have done it earlier. And so for folks out there, what that means is they are signing onto it, right? If they allow it to happen, when they actually are constitutionally allowed and given the job to act as a balance to Donald Trump or any president, and they're choosing not to, that means they're okay with what's happening.

[Eugene Daniels]

Not even just allowed. It is their duty. It is their duty to advise and consent. Supreme Court justice nominations have gone down because the Senate Judiciary Committee did not think that the nominee could pass muster. I mean, hello, Bork, Come on now. I was reading about. I don't know why I was reading about this the other day, but like Robert Bork. Oh, because I'm reading about the origins.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, I remember. When we come back, more from my conversation with Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Built housing has always been one of life's best biggest expenses. Whether you're paying rent or a mortgage, it's a payment you're going to make every month. So here's a question. Are you getting rewarded for paying your rent or mortgage right now? If the answer is no, you need to check out Bilt. Becoming a Bilt member means earning points on every housing payment, no matter where you live. And those Bilt points can be redeemed towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, future housing payments, fitness classes, and so much more. Personally, I'd probably put my points towards travel or a great meal at one of Bilt's restaurant partners. One feature I think is especially interesting is Bilt's neighborhood concierge look. We hear a lot about agentic AI these days, but this is a practical example of what that can actually look like. Instead of just giving you recommendations, the neighborhood concierge can help get things done. It can make a dinner reservation, book a fitness class, schedule a Lyft ride, and point you toward exclusive member benefits at restaurants and businesses around your neighborhood. Getting started is simple. First, download the Bilt app, then link any credit or debit card so purchases at your favorite local spots become even more rewarding. Finally, ask the neighborhood concierge just about anything and let it help take care of the details. And for the homeowners listening, Bilt works for mortgages too. If you're already making a housing payment every month, it's worth taking a look. Download the Bilt app and join the membership for where you [e-mail] assembly that's J-O-I-N B I L T.com assembly and use our link so they know we sent you. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've heard me talk about BetterHelp for a long time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how I've personally recommended it to friends. Like I've heard from them. People love the service when they use it. You can see it for [e-mail] reviews, where you can see real customer feedback updated every day, hundreds of people share how much they love BetterHelp and how helpful the service has been to them. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on more than 1.7 million client session reviews. The feedback from people who've actually used the service really speaks for itself. More than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally and BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1,000 hours of of hands on experience along with the required education, training and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. Getting started is simple. You answer a few questions, get matched with a therapist based on your needs and if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. So see the reviews, see what stands out and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com Abrams that's better. H-E-L-P.com Abrams but here's the thing. I think that we give Trump more power than he has, we seem to think, and I welcome disagreement. But I often hear people ascribe Trump this dominion over the party, whereas I think he's a permission structure. Yeah, they can do what they need to do. He gives them permission to not have to do it. He gives them permission to say it's perfectly okay to have this slush fund. And you guys have said this before because all the Republicans who are opposing the compensation fund have said nothing at all about the use of the Federal Tort Claims Act 200 January 6th. Defendants have filed for claims asking for money back and that compensation fund. It's been around for a while and they've been completely silent. And so my concern is that we become so myopically focused on Trump as an operator and he's really just the allower in chief. He lets them be who they want to be and he gives them cover to do what they would do anyway. Because if you think back to what happened with Bork, I remember when Bork was put up, they didn't get rid of him on purpose. They got rid of him because they didn't have a choice. Because everyone started paying attention. Because Robert Bork was who he was when his nomination came forward. He was the same person when they finally let him go. The only thing that changed was that people knew what was happening. And so I'd love for you guys to talk a little bit about and I'll start with you, Eugene, because you lifted up Trump and I don't think you're wrong about the dominion he seems to have in the public, you know, zeitgeist. But I wonder how much of it is endemic to him and how much is now permissible because he has been. Because what I think about is what happens in 27 if we take Congress and what happens in 29 when he's gone.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Right. I think part of it is it's a both and Right. I think, you know, there are folks within the Republican Party who, just like us, for many years, saw Donald Trump as an entertainer. Not that he was entertaining. I didn't watch the little Apprentice show, but people saw him and saw him as entertained, like an entertainer. And so one of the things that I think is so interesting when you talk to folks within the White House and you ask them, how does he engage with these folks? And he has this room off the Oval Office where he has all this Trump 20, 28 hats there and all these different kinds of swag that he gives to people. And the ways in which grown men and grown women are like, me, me, me, give me the hat, give me the pen. The ways in which they do that, like, it shows you. And it's very embarrassing. They're in their 50s and 6th and put your hands down. But what I think it shows you is that they, there are some folks within the party who still see him as a celebrity, so they are going to be willing to follow him wherever. But I do think there are still Republicans, and these are the quiet Republicans. And frankly, at the end of the day, these are the Republicans sometimes that I, the politicians I sometimes respect for, which is they don't believe in the things that Donald Trump is like they believe he's forcing them to do. They don't believe in the stances the party has taken. They don't believe in the ways in which the Republican Party has gone over the last 10 years. And yet they are still going along with it quietly, behind closed doors. They will talk to me or some of our colleagues, maybe even to you guys, and say it's so terrible. We're almost done, though. We have two and a half more years and then it's done. And I think there's still a hope from the conversations I've had in the Republican Party and the Republican Party leadership and the electeds that the party will go back to the Ronald Reagan ish party after. But I think, but I, you know, obviously y' all know me, I'm like, wait a second, that doesn't make any sense. Because at the end of the day, as you said, Leader Abrams, the permission structure has already been there. So I think the permission structure is with the people, too. It's not just with the electeds. At the end of the day, the folks that follow Donald Trump, the people within the Republican Party who believe in the Unitarian executive theory, for example, those folks have been unleashed in a way that they wouldn't have believed would happen in their wildest dreams. And how the next few years goes, it is also gonna be incumbent upon everybody who cares about democracy to remind these people of what they said they didn't like to remind. And we try to do this as reporters, remind them of what their jobs are, remind them of the promises they made to the American people or the people of their states, the people in their districts and how to do their jobs. And I think we're in a moment in which they're not going back, and I don't exactly know what that means just yet about what we do as journalists, what you guys do, Leader Abrams, as advocates and organizers and strategists, and what Simone does as someone that hosts a show and that people call her for advice all the time, it is going to require something that I think none of us aren't even prepared for at this point.

[Eugene Daniels]

There is no going back.

[Stacey Abrams]

And as you answer the there's no going back, I'd love for you to frame it in terms of the power dynamic, because one thing Eugene said was that there are people who feel forced. And you and I both know, the three of us know it takes five votes in the Senate to stop anything from their side. It takes seven votes and a sneeze over in the House to make something not happen. And so I'd love for you to talk about why there's no going back, but also what the fear and paralysis is of actually using the power they have right now.

[Eugene Daniels]

Look, in the lead up to the 2024 general election, we had the architect, like the head of the Heritage Foundation. He came on our show and we were like, oh, greetings. Thank you. To talk about Project 2025. Because he had been out there in the press doing all these interviews and everything, and he on our show, and he said, this is not about Donald Trump. This is about Trumpism. And this is our opportunity to use this as a vehicle to essentially imbue Trumpism throughout the federal government and to enact an agenda that they have been working on for decades. And when I heard that, it was very crystal clear to me. And so the reason the five in the Senate won't stand up consistently or the handful of people needed in the House on the Republican side of the aisle to stand up consistently. The reason that does not happen is because at the end of the day, they are thinking about power, not for the people, but for the party. And they have this Republican Party apparatus, I think, has made a calculation that raw power, that the ability to sit in the seat is what matters most. Character, people damaged, like, whatever else be damned. We need to sit in the seat so we can enact this agenda. That's why people have been contorting themselves into a pretzel to come out against Max Miller, Republican congressman running for reelection, who his wife has accused him of abusing, not only her, but their daughter. Right? That's why her own damn father, okay, Bernie Morano, senator from Ohio, took weeks, weeks to come out and say something, something about the fact that this man that his daughter is saying abused her and Bernie Moreno's granddaughter. Say something. Say he's unfit. Say you don't like it. Say something. He refused at every single turn to say something, even as recent as the last day he was on Capitol Hill. And then he put out a little tweet on social media. So I would just argue that what they are beholden to is this naked quest for power. And, you know, when Lindsey Graham passed, one of the conversations we had on the show was, you know, everybody was going around saying, you know, nice things about Lindsey Graham, how they knew him so well. I was like, I ain't know Lindsey Graham, so I don't have a story to tell about Lindsey Graham and, you know, my personal comings and goings. I've met him a number of times in passing. But I will say this, that history will judge those who were complicit. And Lindsey Graham, like many other Republicans in this Republican Party apparatus, are complicit. And they made calculations because they felt like they were doing what they needed to do for, in my opinion, the sake of power. And if you just look back at it, I mean, that's why so many people decided to just say, okay, we're just gonna go along with Trump because he seems to have the people. He seems to have the votes. He can be the vehicle through which we get these things done. And then the people elected him again, and they're like, okay, we gotta go along to get along. This is the vehicle for power. But when Trump is gone, that quest for power, that insatiable, naked thirst for doing whatever you think is necessary, by any means necessary to achieve this goal again, the people be damned, the voters be damned, what is right or our Constitution be damned, that will still Be there. And that is why I don't. You know, just like in Covid, where it's like, oh, people are like, oh, we wanna go back to normal. Normal is subjective. And so everybody that's looking to rebuild these institutions, to rebuild this, rebuild that, no, we will have to make something anew. Okay. I went to virtual church the other day. So talking about birthing anew, that's what it's gonna take, I think. And if people are waiting on, you know, these Republicans to wake up, they're the only thing, I think power concedes nothing without a demand. They will respond to the people. That's why the slush fund became such a point of contention in the first place. Weaponization fund, because when the people found out about it, to your point leader Abrams, the people didn't like it. They were being very vocal about it. The reporters like Eugene were asking the folks about it and they were making their feelings known. And that spooked the Republican Party apparatus a little bit. Didn't spook the president, cuz he doesn't care, but it spooked the people around him and the other people who have electoral aspirations. And therefore now they decided to stiffen their backs just a little bit for five seconds. So I do think that folks have to remember that we still do live in a representative democracy, that they are trying to, as I said earlier, trying to crush our will. But we are not fully in an authoritarian situation just yet. And so that's why these upcoming elections are extremely, extremely important.

[Stacey Abrams]

More from my conversation with Simone and Eugene after the break. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by the Back from the Brink podcast. We spend a lot of time on this show talking about how even the biggest problems can be solved by everyday people coming together, speaking out and demanding action. The Back from the Brink podcast takes that same approach to one of the most consequential issues of our time. Nuclear weapons. It's hard to imagine that nearly 81 years after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the world still lives under the threat of nuclear war. Today, just a handful of leaders have the power to launch nuclear weapons. Making decisions with unimaginable consequences for all of us. The Back from the Brink podcast challenges the idea that this is simply the way the world has to be. Through conversations with experts, advocates and organizers, the podcast explores why nuclear weapons don't make us safer, how we arrived at this moment, and what everyday people can do to help reduce the threat and move toward a world without them. Find it online at preventnuclearwar.org podcast or search for the Back from the Brink podcast. Wherever you get your podcast Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Forkful. Let's be honest, eating well isn't always easy. When your schedule is packed between work, travel and everything else competing for your attention and mine, who has time to plan a meal, cook it and then deal with the dishes? That's where Forkful comes in. Forkful offers chef cooked fresh, not frozen meals that are ready to eat in under three minutes. Their meals are made with high quality ingredients including grass fed bison, wild caught salmon and fresh vegetables and there are plenty of options to match the way you eat. Whether you're looking for gluten free, dairy free, keto plant based, GLP1 friendly or low carb meals, I love having an option that feels like a real meal without having to spend my evening in the kitchen. You get fresh, flavorful food that's ready in minutes with no meal prep, cooking or cleanup required. Explore plans and menus of fresh ready to eat [e-mail] and use code assembly to get 50% off your first order. That's forkfulmeals.com assembly and use promo code assembly for 50% off. And thank you to Forkful for sponsoring this episode let's talk about the elections because as you just described, Simone, we're in a competitive authoritarian situation. So if you're looking at the geopolitical strata of democracy, we've moved from being a democracy to being a competitive authoritarian democracy. And the competitive authoritarian piece is that authoritarians rely on democratic institutions to buttress their authoritarian objectives. That's the whole point. So when you move to full authoritarianism, they kind of stop pretending and they move, you know, closer and closer to totalitarianism. But right now we're in the space where they want the democratic institutions. They just don't want them to work. And that brings us to voting rights. And you both have been eloquent and aggressive in talking about what's happening. And so I'd love to talk about two things that were in the news this week. Axios reported today that in South Carolina, the elections officials turned over a voter's IP address because that voter registered to vote online. And before people dismissed this as a one off, 43 states permit online voter registration. So I'd love to start with you, Eugene. Talk about why it matters that the regime, this authoritarian regime, is using the apparatus of the FBI to summon and demand records from the state of South Carolina to get the IP address of a registered voter.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

This Is one of those stories that I think people are not gonna pay a lot of attention to, frankly. And that I think they should because there's so much going on, right? There's so much going on and the bills are high, you know, childcare is high, healthcare is high if you can afford it, gas is astronomical. But at the end of the day this is one of those stories that tell you so much about their plans. And I think there are some people who sometimes come on Ms. Republicans, but also Democrats who aren't that concerned about November, who aren't that concerned about Donald Trump is going to try to at the very least provide extreme barriers to what's going to happen in November. When it comes to Democrats, I don't know why they feel this way. I think it's insane considering the long list. But these are why these stories matter. The idea that an American citizen, cuz we have no proof that this person is anything but is doing what is allowed in their state, which is to go online and register to vote is their information was given to the FBI and is insane, as Simone would put it. It is one of those things that, you know, I think in people's wildest imaginations it only existed, right? Like I think for a long time we have been contempt with the idea that, you know, these old white guys, 250 years ago, flawed as they were, put together this thing and it was always gonna work out. And I think we have. Donald Trump has shown the limits of that lack of imagination that we have. And I think what's interesting about this administration is their imagination to the ways in which they can wield power over and what is the norm and what is the law is astronomical. On January 19, 2025, I was talking to someone who ended up working in the Trump DOJ department. They're still there. And they told me we were gonna press the bounds of everything. And I said what are you waiting? Cause I'm tired already. And they were like everything, Eugene. I'm talking legal, I'm talking electoral, I'm talking judicial, I am talking the ways in which you view yourself as an American and who's allowed to be here, all the ways in which this country has operated. And when you look at the states, that is where the real fights are happening because there's only so much the federal government can do on its own. It is the states and the folks in those states who have to stand up and say no. And the fact that South Carolina was like, okay, here's the IP address. Why would they want the IP address. What do they want from this person? What is the point? And I think that is one of the things. They are testing everyone who is supposed to have some kind of constitutional or at least some kind of duty to protect the people in their states. They are testing whether those people are actually gonna do it. And it is only August. That is not that. That is both very close to November and also gives plenty of time for all types of shenanigans. And I think one of the things that has been disturbing and what I think Republicans get wrong about Donald Trump is that, Simone, you said he's the vehicle for the kinds of things they want. I think it matters more what he sees himself as. He does not see himself as a vehicle for them. Look at the housing bill. He didn't sign it because he wanted what he wanted. Right. They learned the hard way over and over again that loyalty is a one way street. He cares about his control of the Republican Party. He does not care about its success. And so that's why they know they can do things like this. Because to him, power is the only thing that matters. Donald Trump is not that complicated. Regime Change by Mag Haberman and Jonathan Swan One of the things as a reporter I gleaned from that and what I was reminded of, Donald Trump is not a complicated person. He's actually quite simple, right? Like almost everything that he does is about Donald Trump and his goals. And people who live in South Carolina who are supposed to be keeping people's information in South Carolina, they are learning that it doesn't matter. Maybe this person wanted to give it, I don't know. But at the end of the day, Republicans have failed to understand the man who is running their party. And he doesn't care about their success. He was doing a lot of things differently. And so my question has always been, if Donald Trump doesn't seem to care about whether or not Democrats take over the House or the Senate in November, why? And these kinds of shenanigans in South Carolina are why? Because he is trying to find out other ways to do it. He doesn't want to have to go out and have the conversation about policy. He's focused on the ways in which you can put a brick wall up from folks who are used to being able to do things. This person didn't break the law that we know of in any way, shape or form. And so the ways in which he's willing to utilize power. He was doing it when he was in New York and he was a failed realtor. Right. Like it is what it is. And the ways in which he's doing that now in the Republican Party, despite all the numbers we look at and how unpopular he is, how unpopular the anti Democratic things he's doing seem to be in the polling. It only works if the people who he goes to to try to also do the anti Democratic things. If they say yes, that's when it works. And that's the biggest issue here.

[Eugene Daniels]

Yeah, I mean, but he's surrounded himself with the people that are willing to do that. Like what I found so striking about the Axios. We got Todd Blanche, Todd Blanche, come on now. Cash Patel, who's head of the FBI. Like, what I found so striking about the Axios reporting is that they literally wrote that the President's persistent complaints about the 2020 election have now expanded into federal investigations. So the President has now staffed the administration with people who are willing to literally, they want to placate his feelings. And so they're opening up investigations. And it is no small thing because I think the federal government is very, very powerful. You know, they can do a lot. They can claim fraud, they can, they can investigate people. This is not, as we talk about history, this is not the first time this has been done. Right. People forget J. Edgar Hoover's FBI. They had the blueprint for what this FBI, I think, is attempting to do now. They are trying to expand upon what J. Edgar Hoover did, but they not starting from scratch. I think at the end of the day, they are trying to affect this election. They're trying to steal the election by any means necessary. And I don't know why anybody would be surprised because he tried to do it the last time. And the last time, the only thing that stopped Donald Trump were the people, to Eugene's point, that the regular people, the regular state elected officials, some other people within the party who were like, no, I'm not going to do this. Some people who stood up and said, I don't think this is in my constitutional duty hell, Mike Pence, the vice president at the time, Brad Raffensperger in Georgia.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, let's not go crazy here.

[Eugene Daniels]

This is true.

[Stacey Abrams]

This is true. So, no, no, I want to be,

[Eugene Daniels]

I do want to be clear right now.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, but I want to be clear about what Brad Ratzenberger and Brian Kemp did, because we are lionizing people who simply said, I won't commit treason. They didn't have a mechanism.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

The bars on the floor, they didn't have.

[Stacey Abrams]

But, but here's why this matters. If you don't have a mechanism but you take credit and use that as a cloak to then institute some of the most vicious voter suppression in the South. Because Brad Ratzenberger also oversaw, along with Brian Kemp, they said no to Trump about finding votes they legally could not find, but then used it as a proxy to make it illegal to get water when you're standing in lines in the state of Georgia, made it harder to vote by mail, which is a precursor to what we're seeing in the SAVE Act. They expanded almost every vestige of voter suppression while waving their hand saying, we didn't commit treason, like every other secretary of state and every other governor in the country. So I push back whenever I hear that. Not because it's not true, but what we've extrapolated from it is this carte blanche permission structure for them to do the bad stuff because they did one good thing right. Mike Pence may have said the right thing on January 20th, but I wanna see what he said every day before that. Because a lot of what Trump was allowed to get away with, a lot of what this regime is doing today, got its precursor from that first administration where Pence was very happily there. And his current fight with the Heritage foundation through his new group, afp, is not about how do we restore the authenticity of democracy. It's who gets to hold the levers of power for the next regime to follow. So that will be my screech for

[Eugene Daniels]

the next, actually leader, Abrams. I think this is really important because I think that writ large, the country is very desperate for anybody to say, the people who are part of the democracy coalition and folks that just believe in the Constitution are like, we will take anybody in the coalition that's willing to say, right is right and wrong is wrong. But to Eugene's point, because the bar is on the floor or in hell, as I would argue.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Correct.

[Eugene Daniels]

It is very important. Come on now, where is Hades? Okay, what you're saying is really important because before we get to January 6th, there was a meeting in July, there was something that happened in August, there was something that happened in September, something that happened in October when the president went in November after the election, literally that night at like 2am in the white House and said, I have won the 2020 election, when he did not. And people were still, literally ballots were still being counted in Pennsylvania. Nobody said anything then.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Or in the run up, Simone, in the run up, when Donald Trump was saying, for months and months, Donald Trump was saying that at the end of the day, mail in voting was gonna allow people to steal the election and what Republicans said at the time, to me, and I think to a lot of other folks, they said, and even some Democrats, frankly, he's just talking. He just talking. Ish. Don't worry about it. There's nothing. He would never do anything else. And I'm like, really? Because when he lost to Ted Cruz in Iowa, the very first time his name was on anybody's ballot, he said Ted Cruz stole it from him. So, okay, and to leader Abrams point, those people had decision points throughout that entire four years, but specifically in that election, in the run up to that election. And as we all know, a lot of those people did not make the right decision. They chose to placate him. They chose to try to tell us what was it. Take him literally. Not seriously, or seriously not literally, whichever one. But at the end of the day, what became very clear is Donald Trump is thinking differently than every single other person who is operating. And he meant it when he said that he thought he was gonna lose that election.

[Eugene Daniels]

I think people have to. We have to all raise. I mean, I think Leader Abrams bar is raised. I'm talking for the people listening to this podcast. I think everybody has to raise our expectations of what is required in this moment. Because if you are not, if you are not a person, whether you are a Democrat, Republican, Independent, or you don't have any kind of letters or animals behind your name and you just thinking of yourself as an American, I think we have to be crystal clear that this is an inflection point in our country. And unless people are being consistently loud and on the right side of this is what is right, this is what is constitutional at every single turn, then I think that everybody is. People have to like, they deserve to be scrutinized. We have to raise our bar and require more in this moment because the people who are against the Constitution, the folks that are trying to affect the outcome of this next election before any ballots have even been cast in the general election, they are not playing by any rules. They are playing dirty. And they're willing to do anything to achieve their objective. And we cannot be about the business of just allowing anything to slide, because so and so was good on this one thing over here. We gotta raise the bar.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay. Much more when we come back from the break. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Mint Mobile. When we were kids, summer meant freedom. No homework, no teachers, no school. And as adults, summer still means freedom, especially when you can free yourself from an overpriced wireless bill. That's why Mint Mobile's summer sale caught my attention. Right now, all of Mint's plans are just $15 a month, even unlimited. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right, offering Premium Wireless for $15 a month. You get high speed data and unlimited talk and text, all delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. And making the switch is designed to be easy. You can bring your current phone, keep your current number and sign up online. So switching to Mint doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's one less thing to overthink the summer and I love that you can choose 3, 6 or 12 month plans and pay up front so you can say goodbye to another monthly bill. Ditch overpriced wireless and switch to Mint Mobile. Just sign up online and get premium wireless service for $15 a month. To get your new wireless Plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.comassembly that's mintmobile.com assembly cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.comassembly upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term Only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabytes. Hotspot capable device required Availability, speed and coverage varies.

[Tommy Vietor]

CMIT mobile.com hey, it's Tommy from Pod Save America and Pod Save the world. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C. with even more podcasts, panels and workshops. Plus there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms. No matter which way they go, get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the Pod, you get a discount too.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

See you there. Le I have a question for you because you work on this so much, right? And you know your 10 steps. But I wonder when to Simone's point about like everyone has to raise their bar about what to do and that at the end of the day we can't go back to the exact same way. How do you think Democrats should be thinking of how they utilize the power that they will have if they win in November? How they utilize the power they have if they win the presidency and they walk? You know a president, you know Insert Democrat name here. Of the a million that are gonna run in 2028 walk into the Oval Office on January 20, 2029, like should, because a fight that's happening within the Democratic Party, it's a quiet fight, but it's one that's happening is, do we continue to be the people? Do y' all continue to be the people that hold up the standards and the institutions and the things that were in the paper? Or do you take pages out of Donald Trump and his team's book and fire with fire?

[Eugene Daniels]

Get the pages. Get the pages.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

I know what you think.

[Stacey Abrams]

So, actually, I think it's a false binary that we either have to go with what we had or do what they do. And my approach is we need to write something else. Simone knows this. Yeah. You know this. I write a lot of books, and I write books because it's the act of imagination is how you build society. That's all it is. And we've spent so much time rereading other people's pages or watching the arsonist turn it into fodder that we've forgotten we built it in the first place. And so my approach is this one. There's the very practical. And I think, Eugene, this is what you're asking about. The very practical is we have to show up in ways we have not in order to hold onto the ability to make decisions in the future. That's why the midterms matter. I am unequivocal in saying to people, the midterms are. Are critically important and they solve nothing. And both things are true because we have to show up, because we have to have a foundation to build on. And if we do not win, if Democrats do not win in the midterms, we will lose one of our last anchor points in pushing back. And so we have to show up, because what happens in 27 is not just what do we ask Congress to do? Which is part of the question is what is happening at the state level? And you said this, Eugene and Simone, I've heard you talk about it, too. They believe in states rights. I live in the South. They believe in states rights. They intend to impinge on every single freedom that remains and make it fairly neutralized by 2029. Because if you will lose an election in 28, the best way to forestall that outcome is to make certain that the states don't recognize those rights anyway. I live in a state where I do not have reproductive freedom, even though I live in the United States of America. I live in a state where voter Suppression is the law of the land. Even though there is the 15th amendment, it is not unusual in the United States for authoritarian regimes to suppress individual power and societal power. It's called the South. And so part of my mission is for us to understand that what they're practicing right now is not about what happens in 27, it's about what might happen in 29. And so where I think Democrats have to be intentional is one activating as many voters as possible in this election cycle, making certain that we are turning out in the midterms and that we are not negotiating against ourselves, holding power. And so every time I hear the false narrative about who's winning elections and where we are on the ideological spectrum, I remind folks, I'm a liberal in Georgia, I'm a conservative in California. I don't know what I am in the Midwest. And New York will give me a day.

[Eugene Daniels]

We might call you a parties I

[Stacey Abrams]

can join in New York. We spend so much of our time arguing over the labels as opposed to arguing over the solution sets. And so part of our job in this, this facet of the election process, midterms, are about making sure we've got the numbers we need to start building what comes next. Then the interim, that 27, 28 cycle, that's about staving off disaster at the state legislative level, because that is what they are moving to. They demonize us, then they litigate, then they legislate, and they are on the legislation faction. They are going to do what they can to remove our power before we get to 28, because this is about, as Simone said, that this is about power. So what happens in 29? If they win the election, then they've got absolute power for another stretch. They're going to weaponize the census in 2030, they're going to dismantle. The SAVE act will pass with bells on. Or what we can do is make certain that by the time we get to 28, we're actually talking about solutions. We are giving people ideas for what will work. Folks do not care about our political labels. They care about their lives. And so my approach is to not weigh in on either of those narratives. Do we grasp what we had and just polish it up? Because if it worked, we would be in this position. Or do we set it on fire and use the dominion of power to oppress, saying, we're gonna do it better, we're gonna be better oppressors than the guys that we have right now. Now, that never works, because power is corruptive, because it is so therefore, you have to go back to the fundamentals of democracy, which is that it is about shared power, leverage for the benefit of others, and held accountable through elections. And that's the plan I intend to follow.

[Eugene Daniels]

All right, Stacey Abrams for president. That's what. Look, anyway.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Say anyway.

[Stacey Abrams]

So I'm going to give you both a little bit of a challenge, and this has been an extraordinary conversation. I'm gonna give both of you the challenge we give to every guest on Assembly Required, because I believe in homework. And we just talked about the midterms. We talked about voting, we talked about power. But where I think we are the most vulnerable is that people don't know what to do. They don't know how to take advantage of the information they're getting when they listen, to clock it, when they're paying attention to Assembly Required. Our mission is to say, okay, you've gotten this information from us. What do you do with it? So, Simone, I'm gonna start with you, and then I'll come to Eugene, give our listeners homework. What's one thing they can do to help seize that power back from those who keep trying to take it from us?

[Eugene Daniels]

One thing folks can do. You need to familiarize yourself immediately. Familiarize yourself with who exactly is on the ballot in your state, in your district this November. So I just want y' all to go ahead, open up a little Google search. Okay? Type in Election Commission, insert county. Okay? So, like, I'm from Douglas county in Omaha, Nebraska, So I would like Douglas County Election Commission. And then on the website, they have all of these things pop up about who's on the ballot. Just click through, start familiarizing yourself. It is August 3rd. As we are having this conversation. You can't do anything without the information. Knowledge is power. And so we gotta get the basic information. And I don't expect people to just, you know, know off the top of their head, who's on the ballot. I'm talking about state legislative seats. Okay? Who was. Who was running for that state Senate. Okay? That state, that House of Delegates. Honey, these are the things that you could find out by just, you know, doing a quick little Google search.

[Stacey Abrams]

Eugene, you get the last word, which I know you love.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

That's true. I honestly. Mine's more of a thought exercise. Is that. Cause I. I've been talking to a lot of. You know, I was at the DSA convention, their summit in Chicago, and I've been talking to a lot of moderates as we look to cover what's gonna happen in Michigan on Tuesday. And I think the thing that I am finding in the Democratic Party that's really interesting is that it used to be the left that would say if we don't win the primary, we're going home. But now I'm hearing that also from moderates. And I think for folks in the Democratic Party who are serious about having the tools to stop what they see as scary and as authoritarian, it is to really try to get rid of purity tests. And that at the end of the day, you have to just like everyone's having to do things they never had to do before. You also have to think about electoral politics in a different way in this moment, because you can be mad at the other side in your party or you can figure out how you can learn from them to be more successful in the future, to win, and then fight with them when they have some power. I think that's one thing that is really on my mind now as I'm covering these primaries, is that ideological fights are good. I love a primary. I think everybody should be primaried. It makes you better at your job. You know what I mean? It makes you. Everybody from the top to the bottom in Congress should be primaried because at the end of the day, it makes you have to defend what you've done and make promises for the future. And I think that's really important for both parties. But. But after that's done, you have to figure out who the real opponent is. And one person at the DSA said something really interesting to me. A lot of people are gonna find it concerning, but he called the Democratic. I said, are you a member of the Democratic Party? Said he saw Democrats as his enemies. And I said, your enemies are your opponents. He said, okay, fine, enemies, opponents. And some of them are my friends. But I think the very first thought of them being enemies is going to be a huge problem for the democracy coalition as it moves forward.

[Eugene Daniels]

That's why my Democratic friends is like, we don't want dsa. And I'm like, y' all get it together.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

You need their energy, but you know, that's them to do.

[Stacey Abrams]

Eugene Daniels, Simone Sanders Townsend, host of Clock it. And dear, dear, dear friends who are smart and thoughtful. Thank you so much for joining me today on Assembly Required.

[Eugene Daniels]

Thank you. I'm raising my glass to Leader Abram.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Yes, always.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you, guys. As always, at Assembly Required, we give you actionable tools to help make a difference. First, be curious. Subscribe to Eugene and Simone's podcast, Clock it. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Number two, Solve problems. The midterm election is just a few shorts short months away and it is vital that Democrats regain majorities in the House and the Senate. It is also incredibly important to pay attention to your state and local candidates who, as we know and as we discussed, can have a seismic impact on our everyday lives. So, as Simone suggested, I need you all to find a candidate who inspires you. But don't just vote for them. Sign up to volunteer or if you don't know how to find someone to visit your local state party to learn about ways to get involved. And of course we want to do some good. Listeners of this show know I grew up in Mississippi and I am deeply invested in civic engagement and building political power there and across the South. The organization Mississippi Votes is led by young people invested in programming and outreach strategies that empower young people, encourages civic engagement, and educates communities on voting rights through place based grassroots organizing. So please visit msvotes.org to learn more, donate and volunteer. And thank you to those of you who have shared your questions and comments via my substack, Assembly Notes, Crooked Media's Discord or other platforms. Keep the questions and comments coming, tell others about us and add us to your feed. Let me know what episodes resonate and what you want to learn more about. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Do good out there and I'll see you here next week. Assembly Required is a Cricket Media production. Our show is produced by Alena Minkowski and Farah Safari with Katie Long and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Heathcote, Kirill Palaviv, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis and Jay Banks. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Tommy Vietor]

Hey, it's Tommy from POD Save America and Pod Save the World. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics. Talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C. with even more podcasts, panels and workshops. Plus there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms. No matter which way they go. Get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount too.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

See you there.