← Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
How We Can Save Our National Story - One Park at a Time
01:03:57
National parks and public lands tell us who we are - and remind us of how we fit into the grander scheme of things. They give people the chance to connect with the awe-inspiring beauty of nature, create jobs and fuel economic growth, and preserve vital historical and cultural landmarks. But despite their broad, bipartisan popularity, Republicans appear determined to dismantle our parks and auction off our natural history to the highest bidder. Back in February, the administration began gutting the National Park Service—firing over a thousand employees. And the destruction hasn’t stopped. At the center of this assault is Trump’s barbaric megabill that guts a wide variety of crucial programs. The version that recently passed the Senate further slashes the National Parks Service budget and opens public lands to private development and fossil fuel development… all to help fund tax cuts for billionaires. This week, Stacey sits down with former U.S. Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland,...
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- [00:00]
Stacey Abrams
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Co. As someone who grew up on the Gulf of Mexico, my family loves seafood and now that we live away from the coast, I still like to make sure that my parents have access to high quality options at home. Luckily, we don't need to live near the water to get what they love, which is why I'm so glad I discovered Wild Alaskan Company Wild Alaskan Company is a great way to get wild caught. Perfectly portioned, nutrient dense seafood delivered directly to your door. My parents are excited when they see the box on their doorstep because they know good meals are on the menu. We are a family of enthusiastic cooks and they like that they have different varieties of fish to inspire their recipes. The fish from wild Alaskan company is 100% wild caught never farmed. This means there are no antibiotics, GMOs or additives, just clean, real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. 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But before we get to the episode, I wanted to take a moment to weigh in on the Republican mega bill that Trump signed over the weekend because it is cruel, senseless and one of the most irresponsible pieces of legislation I've ever witnessed. I served 11 years in the Georgia House of Representatives. I know what it means to fight for people while under pressure pressure from governors, from lobbyists and corporate donors, from your own colleagues. And I can tell you this bill sells out average Americans to fund the powerful, the wealthy and the mean spirited. The more accurately described debt and deportation bill will add trillions to the cost of running our country by running down those who are the most vulnerable. Republicans in both chambers happily agreed to a bill that kicks nearly 17 million people off of their health insurance. It slashes Medicaid, adds red tape for patients, and guts funding that keeps rural hospitals open. It jeopardizes school meal access for more than 18 million kids. And if their parents can't find work, it boots children as young as eight off of food assistance. Simply put, it cuts health care and food assistance for workers in order to cut taxes for the rich and finance a massive expansion of lawless behavior by ICE and Homeland Security. So what happens next? Once the Medicaid cuts go into effect, seniors in nursing homes will be told to leave, children will lose access to life saving care, families won't be able to get help for mental health or addiction, workers will lose health care and states will shut down hospitals. Even those with private insurance and steady paychecks will pay higher prices for health care and wait even longer to get help if help ever comes. All of this to create a massive wealth transfer, the largest in our nation's history, making the gap between the have the most and the barely getting by even wider. This is not hyperbole. It's already happening in places that have tried these policies, and now Republicans are taking the pain nationwide in the face of this cruelty. Now is the moment for us to be doubling down on our commitment to caring for our communities. We'll be talking more about this in upcoming episodes of Assembly Required, but it's up to us to make sure our friends, family and neighbors don't fall through the cracks. We deserve better, and we're not backing down. And with that, here's your episode. Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. National parks, once called America's best idea by novelist or Wallace Stenger, have been a fixture of American culture and identity since the late 1800s. And as much as lore told us, to expand, national parks reflected the instinct to protect and preserve, even when that ethos came at the expense of indigenous communities who'd stewarded the land long before there was an America. Any talk about, quote, public land has to reckon with the fact that much of it was stolen. And calling them public without that context erases a history of displacement and violence. But acknowledging this isn't a footnote. It's a necessary part of telling the full story of America. And it's a critical reminder of the debt we owe today. The national park system spans 85 million acres across all 50 states. These parks are not just sites of stunning natural beauty. They are ecological preserves and living archives of America's history. Good, bad, ugly and indifferent. According to a recent Pew survey, the National Park Service is the most approved of federal agency ranking at 76% an enviable ranking. And they are only growing in popularity, hosting a record 331 million visitors and contributing a record breaking $55.6 billion to the US economy in 2023. However, the parks are only a fraction of the public land that is stewarded by the government. Agencies like the National Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management protect more than half a billion acres, or almost a single third of our country's total land area. We're talking about wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, national historic sites like the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic park in my hometown of Atlanta, Georgia, and more. National public lands are one of the few spaces where your economic status is irrelevant to your ability to enjoy and wonder. My family, which my mom used to refer to as the genteel poor, we may not have been able to afford a Disney vacation, but we could trek through the national forest in southern Mississippi. I vividly remember the marvel of towering longleaf pines, scraping impossibly blue skies, animal sounds that intrigued the ears, and my dad carrying my younger siblings that last quarter mile of the hike. Still, despite our public land's massive popularity and the tourism dollars they bring to local economies, the Trump administration sees only dollar signs. Instead of stewardship, they prefer profit over preservation. And like most slash and burn moves championed by this version of Republicans, the historical genius of Republican President Teddy Roosevelt has fallen prey to a hurry to auction off America's legacy and its lands. Back in February, Republicans allowed the Dodge team to eviscerate the Park Service, including firing over 1,000 Park Service employees. Their abrupt, ill considered move had an immediate impact. Half of the campgrounds in the Great Smoky Mountains were were shuttered, ranger led tours were canceled, and workers were unable to do even basic things like buy toilet paper. Beyond visitor services, the parks agency is struggling to study the impacts of climate change, protect air and water quality, monitor ecosystem health, recover endangered species, and uphold treaty obligations to Native American tribes. The consequences stretch far beyond the impact on local communities or workers and frustrated visitors. You see, the Park Service and other agencies that manage America's public lands are also on the front lines of responding to climate disasters, from floods to wildfires. And now the mega bill to finance the wealthiest Americans and corporations proposes a catastrophic $1 billion in cuts which would shutter 75% of our National Park System system. That's three of every four locations across the country. Versions of the bill also contain unprecedented language that would mandate the sale of public land, opening it up to development and drilling to help fund tax cuts for billionaires. Although its chief sponsor, Utah Senator Mike Lee, agreed to pull his language, there is nothing to stop this attack from returning in a different form.
- [09:50]
Deb Haaland
Because.
- [09:50]
Stacey Abrams
Because the messenger isn't the point, it's the message. You see, the lands that Mike Lee and Republicans targeted include prime recreational, wildlife, historic and cultural sites. And although it was withdrawn after opposition from Republicans, the threat isn't over. Quick action by Republicans and Democrats on this issue demonstrate how bipartisan protection of our lands can and should exist. But that does not mean that our public lands are safe. The Trump administration has already indicated it will roll back other rules protecting remote areas of the country, including the provision to keep roads out of national forest. So what happens now? What does all this mean for the future of public land? Who stands to gain and who loses the most? Today on Assembly Required, I'm joined by former United States Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland, who will walk us through the history of public lands as cultural and historical resources and the devastating effects these cuts could have. Then I'll talk to conservation activist and outdoor Afro founder Rue Mapp, who will share how we can protect these lands and how we can fight to keep them public. Secretary Deb Haaland, thank you so much for joining me.
- [11:18]
Rue Mapp
Happy to be here.
- [11:20]
Stacey Abrams
So I want to talk to you about national parks. Wallace Stenger once gave national parks the lovely description of being America's best idea. What's the history of the national park system and what makes it so uniquely American?
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Rue Mapp
Of course. Of course, you can't talk about national parks without talking about President Roosevelt, who was an avid outdoorsman. He famously camped out at Yosemite under the redwood trees with John Muir, and John Muir was able to convince him to protect those trees. He cared deeply about the outdoors, that Americans should have this to rely. And, I mean, there's a lot of other history affiliated with the Antiquities act, which gives a United States president the ability to designate a piece of public land. Some Indian tribes were kicked off of their lands in order to make room for national park. So there's a long history there, too. But overall, I think in 2025, people know them as a place they can go to, to recreate, to think, to restore themselves, to lay under the redwood trees, to just appreciate what we have in our country.
- [12:54]
Stacey Abrams
Well, we are having a moment where public lands and national parks are not simply a symbol of what we have in our country. And I think you are alluding to this. They are part of the civic infrastructure of democracy. You and I met during your tenure in Congress, and I got to celebrate your elevation to becoming secretary of the interior. And we're gonna talk about how you're gonna help continue to shape America's future later in the show. But I would love to have you talk about how you see our national parks and our public lands as emblematic of and also crucial to the civic infrastructure of democracy.
- [13:34]
Rue Mapp
Of course. Yes. Well, I mean, there's national parks in nearly every single state in the country. Out west, we have big national parks right here in New Mexico. We have the Petroglyph park, we have Carlsbad Caverns. But basically, national parks are also emblematic of a thriving outdoor economy right now. Right. Cities and towns, they sprang up because of these national parks. Hotels, Restaurants, locally owned gift shops and fly fishing shops, and all of these places where people, entrepreneurs, thought, I am going to start a business here. I'm going to be able to raise my family because of this national park. Now, we have this really long history of that. National parks essentially go hand in hand with local economies. And it has really been a really good partnership for a really long time as we become more sophisticated as a country. We have biologists, ecologists, we have folks who study traffic patterns and design parking lots in the best possible way to visitors. And we have timed entries in some places where folks won't have to wait in line. There's so many, so much research and development that has happened as a result of these parks, just in order to make sure that you can take your family there and they will have an unforgettable experience like I did in my childhood.
- [15:14]
Deb Haaland
Well, I was actually thinking about a story.
- [15:16]
Stacey Abrams
I'm the second of six kids, and one summer my mom and dad decided they were going to take us hiking in desoto, which was a park that was near where we lived in Mississippi. And I just remember us hiking through the trees and looking at the streams. I also remember my dad having to carry the youngest three out because it was a lot longer than we thought. And my mom didn't realize just how long five miles was with six kids in tow.
- [15:41]
Deb Haaland
But it is one of my most.
- [15:44]
Stacey Abrams
Cherished memories, Just being in nature and looking at the sky and hearing the birds and being surrounded by these extraordinary trees that aren't what I would think think about as part of Mississippi's heritage, but is so much a part of how I grew up. Understanding the land around me. And you just referenced it, too, that you have this personal relationship to parks and how they helped you grow up. Can you talk a bit about that relationship and how that played a role into your approach to your work when you were Secretary of the Interior?
- [16:14]
Rue Mapp
Absolutely. Well, it kind of started out in my grandfather's cornfield, Stacey. I used to go down to the cornfield in the summers. We would spend time with my grandparents at their small village of Masita on the La Laguna Pueblo. And I go down to the cornfield with my grandfather, and he taught me all about the cycles. Right. Why we have water in the irrigation ditch. It was from the snow that melted in the mountains and so forth. So I had an idea of why it was important, why our outdoors was important. My dad grew up on a farm in the Midwest, and he believed that kids belonged outside. He just felt like we needed to be outdoors at every possible moment. So he would take me and my siblings on a. You know, we'd rent a rowboat and row up and down dismal swamp for a few days. That's in Virginia when he was stationed there during the time he was in the Marine Corps. And, you know, when you're a kid, you're like, you know, what about Disneyland, Dad? Right. We're in this swamp. My sister was, you know, caught an eel, and we had our fishing poles out the side of the rowboat. But those memories have stayed with me all the way to the secretary's office because I realized how important, you know, when you're in the outdoors, time goes by really slow. And when you're a kid, those are the memories that will stay with you the longest. And so I, you know, being. Being out there outside, in on our lands, on our public lands, it made me realize that every child deserved to have the same experiences that I have had. And so what better way to honor the legacy of President Roosevelt, to honor the legacy of the native people who were essentially removed from their lands to make room for that national park? We need to steward those lands in the right way and honor all of their memories.
- [18:20]
Stacey Abrams
And I appreciate you saying that. When you referenced going to Disneyland, what I remember about that hike with my parents, in retrospect, it was because they couldn't afford to take us to Disneyland. They couldn't afford to take us on spring vacation or to ski, but they could take us outside. They could take us to look at this extraordinary space that belonged to all of us. And you actually, you've called the national parks America's storyteller.
- [18:47]
Deb Haaland
And.
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Stacey Abrams
And we know recently our parks have been under attack, especially for those of us who grew up in communities where the parks were the way we got to access fun and adventure and the outdoors without being able to pay what others could pay. And I know recently social media has been filled with these faux accounts that are purporting to be the voices of our national parks. They're very clever in the way they help reconnect us with this extraordinary resource. When you think about where we are as a country and the stories that we want our parks to be able to tell about this moment going forward, what stories should we be hearing from our parks?
- [19:30]
Rue Mapp
We should be hearing about, first of all, about the Native Americans who used to live there. Right. There's evidence of tribal histories all over our national parks. I mentioned Petroglyph National Park. It's right here in Albuquerque, and it's a stone's throw away from downtown Albuquerque. So it's accessible to so many people in a city. Right. You can just drive out 20 minutes to drive there, and you're in this amazing place, hiking on trails, seeing evidence of, you know, Native American cultures from thousands of years ago. And. And so that's what, you know, that's what the interpreters, the folks, the rangers, the interpretive rangers who work in our national parks, they learn all of that history, and they're ready to impart that on anyone who asks. And so that's important. Also important is, you know, history. Sometimes they name national parks after people. I worked on a national park unit named after Frances Perkins, our first woman secretary, labor secretary, who, thanks to her, we have protections for American workers. And so there's so much we can learn about our American history, about our cultural history and all of those things. The cultural heritage, that's the responsibility of the Department of the Interior. That's in our mission statement that we are required to protect our cultural heritage. And we do that for generations to come.
- [21:07]
Stacey Abrams
So you mentioned first, you mentioned Frances Perkins, who was the first woman to serve as a cabinet secretary. And you occupied a unique position in American history. As the first Native American to serve as Secretary of the Interior. You were responsible for a quarter of all the land in the U.S. including national parks, wildlife refuges, national historic sites. And what I so marveled at during your tenure was that you focused on not just managing lands through acknowledging history, but through intentional repair, that you wanted to restore protections. You wanted to honor tribal sovereignty. You confronted history, including some of our nation's more shameful periods. And in that role, you really contrasted yourself with your predecessors and with your current successor. We know that in mid May, the current Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum, issued an order that instructs bureaus to post signage that requests visitors to report, quote, any signs or other information that are negative about either past or living Americans. And as you said, this is about how we understand our history. Given that you've spent so much of your time devoted as a public servant to truth telling, how do you react to what's happening, to this whitewashing of American history?
- [22:34]
Rue Mapp
Yeah, I mean, it's a little ridiculous, right? I mean, history is history. And this is the history. Our country stole children from their communities and sent them thousands of miles away to military style boarding schools. They cut their hair, they beat them when they spoke their language. They tried to eradicate their culture from them. I am the manifestation of my grandparents having gone to boarding school. Right. I mean, you can't eradicate me because I am part of that history. Right. Generational trauma is a real thing. And all you have to do is look at those of us who have actually been oppressed, who have had the federal government policies impact our lives in negative, harmful, violent ways. And so, I mean, I think that it's up to us, it's up to the folks who know this true history to keep speaking out and to make sure that we continue to tell the truth. Because, I mean, you know, a sign is one thing, our voice is quite another. So we will just keep talking and speaking out and making sure that we are honoring the truth and honoring our ancestors in the best way possible. And of course, as governor of New Mexico, I intend to continue to defend the history of New Mexico and the history of our national park. So I'm going to keep doing that.
- [24:15]
Stacey Abrams
Well, that is a perfect segue to my next question. Question, which is that we know under the Trump administration, we've seen sweeping efforts to cut the budget and to shrink the Interior Department's programs that manage public lands. We have seen the impact that the cuts to park rangers and to our public parks are having on the economies around the country. And that there are governors, even Republican governors who are balking. Republican senators who are saying, wait, this might be too much. Can you talk about what it would mean to essentially wipe out the budget and staffing for at least 350 national park units, including in New Mexico.
- [24:56]
Rue Mapp
Yes, that would be disastrous because as I said, local economies depend on national parks. Local economies grew up around national parks. Right. I mentioned Carlsbad Caverns. Carlsbad Caverns is located near Carlsbad New Mexico. It's a small town, but it might be a two or three day trip that you infuse the economy, the small economy that really depends on visitors to stay open year round. Right. And so it's shameful to think about all of those reductions when it looked to me that when they were firing people, they didn't even ask what their job titles were before they fired them. And quite frankly, there's a lot of folks in our national parks and our national wildlife refuges and on our public lands who make sure that trails are safe for people to walk on, that the bathrooms are clean, the trash is emptied, and you know, you have to empty trashes because sometimes there's bears who get into trash and that becomes a safety issue as well. So I think that with respect to our states and the governors who run these states, governors will be the first line of defense against these really horrible cuts against the awful ideas they have to slash and burn the National Park Service and our other public lands. It's just a really terrible idea. National parks were our best idea. What they're trying to do is the worst idea.
- [26:32]
Stacey Abrams
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- [27:40]
Narrator/Episode Producer
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Stacey Abrams
I know you're in New Mexico, but I want us to widen our gaze and look north to Alaska. We know the Trump administration says it wants to eliminate protections on vast swaths of the Alaskan wilderness, a move that will not only threaten species and accelerate the climate crisis, but will have a deleterious effect on a number of native communities in Alaska who rely on that wilderness. And I think it highlights how the federal government's responsibility to protect public lands is not just about preserving our history, our cultural inheritance. It's about acting responsibly during a time of climate crisis, and it's about recognizing and responding to our history of ignoring native peoples and their needs. Can you talk a bit about why it matters to someone who lives in New Mexico or Mississippi or Georgia that we protect the Alaskan wilderness?
- [29:04]
Rue Mapp
Oh, absolutely. Well, I mean, it's a balance, right? Our climate is out of whack because of climate change. I took many trips to Alaska, and the indigenous people of Alaska, many live a subsistence lifestyle. They depend on the salmon and other animals for sustenance. And when you destroy their habitats, when you say we're lifting all these protections, who cares if the caribou are migrating here or not? Well, that is going to have a really detrimental effect on thousands of people. So I would say to anyone out there listening to use your voice. I mean, Alaska Native people are incredibly strong. They have lived for thousands of years, sometimes on, you know, on the tundra, they've lived on ice. They have, you know, made use of all of the natural resources there. And sometimes it's a hard life that they live, but they love their land, and they deserve to have a voice. So when we think about who's making these decisions, right, it's folks who have billions of dollars, who were infiltrating the ears of the White House, folks who can afford to buy anything they want. Well, these people, indigenous people who've lived off the land for millions of years, they look at the Earth as belonging to everyone, and they are ready to share it with each other. But when you have folks with that mindset that don't understand what community means and how important community is, it becomes just really untenable. And quite frankly, when I think about them destroying our national parks and public lands, they're destroying small towns who are the heartbeat of our public lands. They're also destroying people's lives because they won't have jobs. So if this is an administration that says they want to create jobs for people, they're not doing that.
- [31:16]
Stacey Abrams
I wanted to have you on today. Because as we watch what's happening with the budget bill, with the rescission packages, with the dodge cuts, every piece of this is about the real hurt that happens to people. But it's coming from a place of politics. And you served two terms as the chair of the New Mexico Democratic Party. You helped to shift New Mexico from the red column to the purple column and then to blue. And as we've discussed a few months ago, I got to congratulate you on launching your campaign to become the next governor of New Mexico. But we're also watching our party grapple with this political moment. And you and I both know that much of the decision making has to start at the time, same state level. So what's your advice to state party leaders who are trying to help guide their communities? We know protests are one tool. Speaking out is a tool. But what are other ways we should be working to defend ourselves and our communities against the rise of authoritarianism?
- [32:18]
Rue Mapp
Well, first of all, I think, I mean, we need to win elections clearly. How do we do that? We meet voters where they are. We have to go to the rural communities. We have to go to the mountain communities, the small towns across each of our states, and meet voters where they are and help them to understand that my candidacy wants to protect you into the future. I want to make sure that you have a roof over your head and your family can make ends meet. It wasn't that long ago that I, you know, was raising my kid as a single mom. Soma's now 31, so has a job, thankfully paying their own rent. But it wasn't that long ago where I couldn't buy groceries and pay rent in the same month. I know what it's like to be on food stamps. I know what it's like to sit in the waiting room of the Indian Health Service and wait three or four hours just to to see a doctor. When I'm sick. These are things that I understand, and I am ready to make sure that folks across New Mexico know that I care about that. And so it's up to all of us to make sure that we are out there, that we are meeting voters where they are. We can't just sit in our offices in whatever city we're in and send out social media. People need to see us in person. That's what I've done every time I've organized. I have a long organizing career behind me where I went to every rural community. I registered people to vote. I went back, got them to the polls. And so I am Grateful that people feel the same way. I've had over 10,000 volunteers sign up on my campaign website because, you know, they want the same thing I do. So anybody can sign up. It's debholland.com I am ready to do the work, the work that it takes to energize voters across my state and hopefully across other states, too.
- [34:28]
Stacey Abrams
Well, future Governor Holland, I've got one last question for you. You just gave us instructions on what political leaders should be doing for the people. What should the people be doing? Young people, new voters, what should they be doing and saying right now? Whether they're listening to this podcast because they care about national parks and public lands or simply because they are afraid of what's happening. What's your call to action and how can they join in?
- [34:54]
Rue Mapp
I mean, our call to action is if you have young people who are listening and they're already activated and they're ready to make sure that we have a change in leadership in this upcoming election, then they should be calling all of their friends. They should be. However you contact people these days, text message, social media, whatever it is, they can make sure that folks know how to do things. How do you register to vote? Let me show you. How do you get involved with a candidate that you believe in and that you want to win because you know that you share their values with them.
- [35:35]
Stacey Abrams
Former Secretary of the Interior and future Governor of New Mexico, Deb Haaland. Thank you so much for joining me here on Assembly Required.
- [35:43]
Rue Mapp
Thank you.
- [35:44]
Stacey Abrams
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- [38:24]
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- [38:57]
Stacey Abrams
Ruth, thank you so much for joining us on Assembly Required.
- [39:01]
Deb Haaland
Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here in conversation with you.
- [39:05]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I appreciate it. So when we talk about the outdoors or national parks or public lands, there's often a very specific image that's conjured and that's remote places and mountains or forests far away from where most of us live now. I have a core memory of trekking through the desoto National Forest in southern Mississippi, in part because it felt like this grand adventure. And yet for my parents, it was close enough to our home that we could go there instead of trying to go to Disney World. Can you talk about how you define the out in this very inclusive way that lets folks who grow up like me, have the same appreciation as those who see it as the sort of great outdoors.
- [39:53]
Deb Haaland
Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that beautiful memory. And for me, that is exactly what this work is about. It is about our heritage. And my parents came from the Jim Crow South. They knew about exclusion from public lands, those signs that said you can't come to this park, firsthand knowledge of lynchings. And so public lands haven't always represented a place of refuge. Unfortunately, they are also a part of our collective memory. And you have the plaintive lyrics of Billy Holidays, Strange Fruit, Blood on the Leaves and Blood on the Root. And so my parents, who migrated from the south during the great migration to California, they put together a family ranch up in Northern California. And it was truly that place of purpose for us, that place of gathering, that place of connection. And my dad was an outdoorsman. He hunted, he fished. And I didn't understand it then, but he wanted a place that we could connect with nature and one another and feel safety. But one of the things that you touched on that's so important is that our public lands are the pocket park in your urban area. I live for many years in Oakland, California, and Lake Merritt is the oldest wildlife sanctuary in the country. And a lot of people don't know that. They don't know that they have important public lands right in their own backyard. So we're not talking about always those remote places where no one ever goes. These are the places right in your own backyard. And the work of Outdoor Afro is all about helping people to reconnect because we have a connection as black people to the outdoors, just like you just described. Like I described. And so our job is to help people reconnect to that heritage, to that memory, to that connection wherever they are, and to see that connection close to home as related to those places farther away.
- [42:24]
Stacey Abrams
Well, you talked about the fact that you came to this from a space of family heritage, but I also love the fact that Outdoor Afro started as a blog and that you've been able to weave together both this lived experience, but also this deep desire to share what you know and what you learn. I mean, I just learned about Lake Merritt. Can you talk about what inspired you to start writing about inclusion in nature and conservation? And I know you've given a bit of a backstory, but can you talk a bit about how what started you off has evolved and changed over the last decade?
- [43:03]
Deb Haaland
So, you know, I always understood a connection to nature because of my Parents, Right. It was a normal part of our lives. You know, we had wild game at the table. And as I got older and I started to participate in organizations, especially when I got further and further into wilderness areas, I didn't see a lot of people who look like me. And also when I looked at the glossy magazines of the day, I didn't see representation of a kind of heritage that I knew about, of black people in nature as strong, beautiful and free. And I also knew that black people have had, in the darkest of times, we've had a connection that we fostered in places of purpose like Martha's Vineyard or Lincoln Hills Lake Ivanhoe, Chicken Bone Beach, I mean, you name it. You know, we, like my dad, have always prioritized being connected to nature as a place to find our safety.
- [44:13]
Rue Mapp
Our.
- [44:13]
Deb Haaland
Rest from the pressing pressures and terror of racism. And so I didn't hear those stories. I didn't see those stories. And I wanted to tell a new narrative. I wanted to show black people in our history, but also to offer an invitation to help people find their connection today, even if it'd been interrupted in recent years or through moving to a city. So Outdoor Afro just was a blog on my heart to tell these stories about my family, about all this rich black history in nature and people. This is like 2009. So social media was brand new and there were no algorithms, hashtags. It was very simple. And I was able to, from my kitchen table to have this joyous conversation and get a. A momentum going that turned into an organization. And today, Outdoor Afro is a national, not for profit organization that is here still celebrating and inspiring black connections and leadership in Nature. We're in 30 states and we're in 70 markets, and we train a cohort of volunteers to help people get reconnected to their nature. Places close to home and far away, hiking, biking, camping, you name it, we're doing it. So it's really been a joy to be a part of this work and also for me to be able to link ARMS as a leader with other prominent and influential nonprofit conservation organizations to just help people understand that black people, we care about laws to protect the environment. And it is through building that relationship that we have our voice being able to be heard and expressed at the table to advocate for the protection of public lands.
- [46:19]
Stacey Abrams
So I grew up in Gulfport, Mississippi, which is one of the urban areas of the state of Mississippi. But I remember so vividly not only when my parents took us to hike in desoto National Forest, I remember when we went to camp at Akana, and we spent the weekend fishing and hiking. I got to teach horseback riding at that camp and grew up not necessarily thinking of myself as an outdoors person, but going with my dad and my great grandmother to go fishing. Part of the work that I see you doing as we talk about public lands and access to the outdoors is very much DEI work. I spend a lot of time these days talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And that's often relegated to corporate conversation or a hiring conversation, a really boring HR seminar. But what you've just described is the essence of how DEI lives in our public lands. Can you talk a bit about how you see this as not only a cultural issue, but a political issue and an access issue?
- [47:24]
Deb Haaland
Yeah. Such a great question. And you know, Stacy, one of the things that really strikes me when we talk about these efforts, especially the efforts now to sell public lands, and we just dodged one at the moment of this recording for millions of acres taken out of the reconciliation bill. And I just thank my lucky stars for organizations like the Wilderness Society that got the maps out there so that people could see. Cause maps are powerful. Like, you put a map in front of people, you're telling a story. People are able to locate themselves, their favorite places possibly being for sale. Right. But as it relates to the black community, what really strikes me about this moment is how it definitely awakens a generational memory of black land loss in our country. So many of our ancestors worked hard to own land, to steward land, and far too often, that land was stripped away through violence, legal manipulation, and economic exclusion. And public lands right now represent, to me, the last forms of land that we all have a stake in. And it may not be owned in the traditional sense, like private property, but it's a part of our collective inheritance, and it is the land that our communities should have access to and be able to enjoy. And, of course, to find economic opportunity. That's one of the things that a lot of people don't know. It's like we're talking about $1 trillion economy that's associated with these public lands. We're talking about outfitters, we're talking about gateway communities. We're talking about those quaint BBs that sit in those gateway communities. This is also not just about access, but there's also an opportunity to be at the table for the economic benefits. So when I see this pattern.
- [49:42]
Stacey Abrams
Land.
- [49:42]
Deb Haaland
Being pulled away from public hands and handed over, possibly to private interests for Lord knows what, it rings a very familiar bell for the black community. And we've been here before. And so I'm very, very much an advocate that we should underscore the importance of helping our, you know, just helping our communities to see that it's not just about forests, as you said before. It's not about, like some place in the yonder that nobody you know will ever visit, but it is about fairness, it is about access, and it is about whether or not our next generation will have a share in accessing this land and the promise that it represents. Right.
- [50:31]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I appreciate the way you approach this. We're also having a conversation with Secretary Deb Haaland, who really speaks to the history in this country. What happened to indigenous people, what became public land was stolen land. And as you pointed out, land loss has often attended the conversations about what society looks like. There's what was done to African Americans. There's also the fact that if you look at anti immigrant legislation in this country, it began with stripping Chinese Americans of their right to own property, of stripping Hispanic Americans of their right to own property, as a precursor to the other oppressions that were visited. But at the same time, the expansion of public land conservation created space for these same communities to find themselves still in community with one another. And I know that you sit on the boards of the Wilderness Society and the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partners. Can you talk a little bit more about why these public lands are not only worth fighting for, but what it means for you to be at the table in these conversations at a time of unprecedented attack?
- [51:45]
Deb Haaland
Yeah, I mean, it's truly an honor for me to be able. I've been on the board for the Wilderness Society now for about seven years. I was previously vice chair, and now I'm co chair. And then I'm also, as you mentioned, on the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. And these are two prominent organizations that work in a bipartisan way to protect our wilderness areas, our national forests, our farmlands, our working lands. And what I really appreciate is how each, in their bipartisan ways, are able to bring together so many different groups together. So everyone from the hiker to the farmer to the fisher to the hunter, and by the way, I hunt and fish. So that also is a very personal connection. I have a personal mission to help us reconnect with those skills, too. Because I'm like, listen, people, if your local grocery store shuts down, how are you going to get your protein? It is so personal to me to be able to be connected to two organizations that absolutely represent my values, but also a way that they are at the table. And I, by extension, am allowed to be a part of this conversation to infuse the black perspective, the black American perspective into these conversations. And these organizations are not new. The Wilderness Society has been around at the front, front line of these fights since 1935, and they have done an amazing job. But it's the way that they are able to just doggedly be advocating, but also telling the story, and not just protecting, but also making sure that Native American sovereignty and stewardship are elevated in this conversation alongside activity for all Americans. And right now, this moment is not just about budget cuts. It's about values.
- [54:04]
Stacey Abrams
So, Rue, as you mentioned, the Senate recently withdrew a new plan to sell off millions of acres of public land across 11 states as part of their mega bill. Now, thankfully, this was tabled due to fierce opposition from bipartisan senators, especially Republican senators in Western states, aided by the work done by the Wilderness Society. But are we out of. No pun intended, are we out of the woods yet?
- [54:30]
Deb Haaland
Well, it's not over exactly. It's not over. And we have to stay vigilant and we can look forward. I mean, I'm telling everybody, get hydrated and eat your protein, because we have three and a half more years of this, and these threats are going to keep coming back. And one of the things I want to always highlight is this moment of opportunity that's so important to recognize and celebrate that public lands have brought together unlikely co conspirators. Right. We have our urban nature enthusiasts right alongside the rural rancher, the angler, the hunter. It's really brought together in a bipartisan way, people who are able to tell their story for why public lands are important. And so I want to encourage everyone to recognize this is not the time to go to sleep or to over celebrate, but to keep that momentum going. And I'm just really thankful that there's organizations like, of course, Outdoor Afro, but the Wilderness Society and TRCP that are going to stay vigilant and they will continue to monitor the further rollbacks, such as conservation laws like the Great American Outdoors act, the Farm bill. And we're prepared to mobilize again and again and to keep public pressure high. But I also want to offer something to people who might be feeling overwhelmed. And we're talking about faraway places and people deciding the fate of those places. But I really want people to build that relationship and strengthen that relationship with their local nature. You know, it doesn't have to be going, you know, to a big wilderness area. You know, start small, go for a walk in your local park or sit under a tree. You know, nature is just so patient. And, you know, back to what you were talking about when you talk about our justice. Right. For me, connecting with nature is an important part of the equation to express both our joy and our justice. I know when I go out in nature, the trees don't know that I'm black. You know, the. The flowers are still going to bloom no matter how much money is in my account. Okay. The birds are going to sing no matter who I voted for. So I feel like nature is the template for what equality actually is and can be expressed and what we can learn from it. So I'm just really thankful to be able to do this work that gives us some breathing room, but as well, powerful role model for how we can be.
- [57:45]
Stacey Abrams
That is an extraordinary way to frame this. And as you describe how nature can nurture us in this work, my last question to you, because we love to do this on assembly required, is give people a call to action. What can our listeners, our viewers do to join the fight to protect our public lands?
- [58:06]
Deb Haaland
Well, I always like to say, you know, I'm a lover, not a fighter, but I do believe that joy is action right alongside speaking up. Right? So I want everybody to call your senator, share your story, share your. Why, of course, as I mentioned before, support the organizations that are on the front line of defending the policies, but Outdoor Afro is here for you to help you strengthen your relationship so that you have a story to tell about why these public lands matter for you. And one of the things that we're doing very practically is helping black children learn how to swim. And we're also including their caregivers because, you know, our history of Jim Crow have given us, given us a terrifying and troubling inheritance of black children who are drowning at five to seven times the rate of their white counterparts. And we know that if a child doesn't know how to swim, they're not going to ease into a tippy kayak, they're not going to put a pole in a lazy lake, and they're not going to care about plastic in the ocean. So in addition to saving lives, our planet needs people to be in relationship with water. And so my invitation is not only get involved with your local representative, but also strengthen your relationship in a safe and sustainable way with the outdoors. And that's why Outdoor Afro is here. And so we have an app where you can apply for what we call swimmer ships. And you don't even. You don't even have to be a kid. Okay? There's a lot of grown folks running around here who don't know how to swim. So we are giving swim scholarships to mom and dad and grandma and grandpa. So, so that. So my call to action is to learn how to swim and get in good relationship with the outdoors. Because all together with our story, with our joy, okay, our empowered joy in nature, we will be able to link arms with everyone to move the needle forward to protecting our precious wild all around.
- [60:28]
Stacey Abrams
Rue Mapp, thank you so much for joining me today on Assembly Required.
- [60:33]
Deb Haaland
Thank you so much for having me.
- [60:43]
Stacey Abrams
As always on Assembly Required, we're here to give you real, actionable tools to face today's biggest challenges. First, be curious. No matter where you live, you're probably near a place that is part of our network of public lands. So get curious about what's in your neighborhood and look beyond just the national parks. There are national historic sites, national forests, wildlife refuges, and national monuments that are all managed by our federal government in trust for the public. There are city, state and tribally managed lands too. Rue mentioned a few of them. So go visit these places and inform yourself about their history. And and stay up to date with local news to make certain that you know what's happening with public lands near you. Number two, Solving problems. Our local, state and national representatives are always making decisions about our public spaces. From deciding if there are swimming pools in our neighborhoods to deciding whether we're going to tell the story and the history about tribal public lands. There are often open rounds of public comment when changes are being made to public spaces. So make sure you make your voice heard and let local leaders know what you think. There is a bipartisan concern about cuts to the National Park Service. So call your members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans to let them know what you think of this administration gutting the National Park Service and other land bureaus. Make certain you mention what you've heard and what you're afraid of. Contact your representatives, state, local and federal, and let them know you want to see these places conserved, not exploited. And lastly, but always do good, donate to organizations doing the work to advocate for the protection of our parks and public lands and who tell an inclusive story about who the public lands are for. You can donate to the wilderness society@act.wilderness.org and the National Parks Conservation association at support.npca.org Organizations like these advocate for strong environmental policies, fight legal battles to stop destructive development, and work to ensure public lands stay public. And you can also support ruemaps work connecting marginalized people with the natural spaces. In this time of political upheaval. So find Outdoor afro@outdoor afro.org Donate now. Here at Assembly Required, we are always reaching out to a broader audience that wants to dive a bit deeper into the headlines and to find ways to make a difference, but we need your help to reach them. If you like what you hear, be sure to share this episode and subscribe on all of your favorite platforms and to meet the demands of the algorithms, please please rate the show and leave a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple or wherever you go to listen and learn. Speaking of which, we are preparing an entire episode of Listener Questions, so if you have a question for me, send it in. You can start with an email to assemblyrequiredrookket.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213 9509. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Be careful out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Muntha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abraham.
- [64:59]
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Stacey Abrams
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