Podcast Summary: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams

Episode: More Happier: Talking Romance Writing with Stacey Abrams and Lori Gottlieb
Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Stacey Abrams (A), with guests Gretchen Rubin (B) and Lori Gottlieb (D)

Overview

In this special crossover episode, Stacey Abrams joins Gretchen Rubin’s "Happier" podcast, alongside psychotherapist and author Lori Gottlieb, for a roundtable on the enduring power and evolution of romance—both in fiction and real life. The conversation delves into how romance stories reflect and shape our understanding of love, resilience, and hope, and how they can illuminate healthy relationship dynamics amid a changing social landscape. The episode offers nuanced insights on writing authentic romance, the reality of modern dating, and practical ways listeners can foster more happiness and connection in their own lives.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Craft and Purpose of Romance Writing

[04:27 - 11:52]

Building Authentic Romantic Connections in Fiction

• Stacey Abrams explains that even within heightened, suspenseful plots, authentic human relationships must feel "grounded" and emotionally true, so readers believe in them—even amid mayhem.

  "If you're going to create a human relationship, it has to feel so grounded that the absurdities make sense." – Stacey Abrams [04:32]

• Well-crafted characters fulfill core needs in each other without making the other person the "solution" to their problems.

  "I'm also very intentional about never having the solution to a problem be another person. It's having another person help my main character find their own solution." – Stacey Abrams [06:40]

Evolution of Tropes and Expectations

• The genre has shifted away from "hyper masculinity" and non-consensual dynamics toward agency, mutual respect, and emotional work by both partners.

  "We've seen that hyper masculinity...often was a cloak for non consent...it's making sure that the women who are at the center of the novels have as much agency in who they want to be with as they do in...what they do with their daily lives." – Stacey Abrams [06:57]

Balancing Fantasy and Realism

• Stacey aims for romance that is “idealized but not absurd”—characters mess up, learn, and resolve issues in a way that feels earned.

  "You want to write things that are idealized but not absurd...You're going to confront this instead of pretending you didn't see the note." – Stacey Abrams [08:10]

• Small gestures and realistic dialogue matter.

  "Small scenes that really signal we all know what we're seeing without...exposition." – Stacey Abrams [10:34]

2. Realities of Modern Love: A Therapist’s Perspective

[14:49 - 19:40]

The Power of Small Gestures Over Grand Gestures

• Lori Gottlieb notes people wrongly assume romance must be "big" (promposals, grand surprises) but intimacy is built on small, personal acts of delight and care.

  "Sometimes the most romantic thing is the really small thing...There's such an intimacy around just being noticed and understood." – Lori Gottlieb [14:49]

Organic Romance and Letting Go of Pressure

• Overemphasis on performative romance—especially around holidays—can backfire.

  "Romance comes organically. The best romance is something that naturally happens...most people end up saying, I had the worst time at this restaurant..." – Lori Gottlieb [16:16]

• The most romantic phrases aren't always "I love you," but "I understand you."

  "She said, no, it's, I understand you. She's like, that is so romantic...to be understood fully by this person..." – Lori Gottlieb [17:13]

Prioritizing Romance in a Busy World

• Many crave romance but fail to prioritize it, partly fueling the appeal of romance novels as a vicarious experience.

Rediscovering Excitement

• Stepping outside routines—even simple things—rekindles connection.

  "What would take us out of our everyday life right now?...even...going to an amusement park and have this scary experience..." – Lori Gottlieb [18:32]

3. Dating Culture, Modern Rules, and the Impact of Apps

[19:40 - 24:23]

The Impact of Dating Apps

• Modern app-based dating often lacks the organic courtship and discovery that make romance exciting; it can feel transactional or like “reviewing resumes.”

  "It becomes more job interviewing than...being curious about another person and seeing who they are." – Lori Gottlieb [19:56]

The Need for “Aquarium” Rules

• Historically, strict social rules governed dating—now, the pendulum has swung too far toward chaos, leaving people longing for clearer “guardrails.”

  "It's kind of like what we need is an aquarium...too constrictive [before], then it became an ocean where nobody knows what they're doing...we need more of an aquarium..." – Lori Gottlieb [21:44]

4. Can Fiction Teach Us About Love?

[24:48 - 27:44]

Fiction as a Mirror and Roadmap

• Fiction can both set unrealistic expectations and inspire readers to recognize healthy (and unhealthy) relationship behaviors in real life.

  "Fiction can be so helpful...it's a mirror to who we are and are not, but it's also a roadmap to what else we want to be." – Stacey Abrams [27:23]

The Importance of Grace and Realism

• Remember that "we may have read the book, but the other person hasn't," so don't hold them (or yourself) to fictional standards.

  "We've got to have some grace for that. But we also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either." – Stacey Abrams [27:44]

5. Imperfection and “Baggage” in Relationships

[28:08 - 30:13]

Mutual Acceptance and Self-Awareness

• Both Lori and Stacey emphasize owning your own “baggage” and seeking someone whose flaws and quirks are compatible with yours.

  "I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine...it's okay that I'm a little broken and I don't need you to fix me. I just need you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and that I'm still worth the investment." – Stacey Abrams [29:25]

The Power of Choices

• Some of the most romantic moments, in fiction and reality, are when someone consciously chooses a more loving response or perspective.

  "There is an opportunity for people to make a different choice. That is the more loving choice." – Gretchen Rubin [30:13]

6. Practical Takeaways: Making Life More Romantic

[33:30 - 35:58]

“Try This at Home” Suggestions

• Stacey Abrams:

  Make intentional time each week for something “not important and not urgent” with your partner—or alone if single. This decompresses, adds spontaneity, and keeps you open to joy.
  "At least once a week, make certain that you and your partner are doing something that's not important and not urgent. And if you don't have a partner, do it for yourself..." – Stacey Abrams [33:47]

• Lori Gottlieb:

  Notice and openly express when you delight in your partner (or yourself). These small moments of sharing joy deepen intimacy and positivity.
  "When you notice yourself delighting in your partner, communicate that. It just changes the entire environment in the room..." – Lori Gottlieb [34:47]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You don't want someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who helps you understand how to make yourself better." – Stacey Abrams [06:12]
• "A romantic gesture is maybe something a little bit unexpected...but comes from a grounded place." – Lori Gottlieb [15:00]
• “As long as people are writing about romance...it gives us the sense that maybe the look and the search can go on.” – Stacey Abrams [26:23]
• “We can't change other people, but we can influence other people to change.” – Lori Gottlieb [32:03]
• "There's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety of who you are..." – Lori Gottlieb [29:04]

Important Timestamps

• 04:27: Stacey on writing romance with authenticity and grounded emotional needs
• 06:57: Stacey on the evolution of tropes and increased agency for women in romance fiction
• 14:49: Lori on the misconception of grand romantic gestures vs. the power of small acts
• 19:56: Lori on dating apps and the decline of organic courtship
• 21:44: Aquarium metaphor for relationship rules in the modern era
• 24:48: Does fiction help or hinder real-life relationships?
• 27:23: Stacey on fiction as mirror and roadmap
• 29:25: “Baggage that goes with mine” and the acceptance of imperfection in love
• 33:47: Try This at Home—Stacey’s “not important, not urgent” practice
• 34:47: Try This at Home—Lori’s “delight in your partner” advice

Conclusion & Final Reflections

This episode elegantly blends humor, personal reflection, and practical advice to show that romance—on the page and in daily life—is far more nuanced and achievable than glossy stereotypes suggest. Both Stacey and Lori point to the transformative impact of intentionality, grace, and delight in love. They encourage listeners not just to read about romance, but to live it, in small, sincere ways. Amid struggles for justice and connection, stories of love aren’t frivolous—they remind us who and what we are fighting for.

Final Note from Stacey Abrams:
"Love stories and the connections that sustain us aren't a distraction from the fight for justice. They remind us why the fight matters. We can choose care over isolation and hope over cynicism. Love is a revolutionary idea." [37:30]