New Media and How Emerging Voices Are Shaping What We Know

September 12, 202400:49:50

Stacey is joined by journalist and author, Paola Ramos, and Washington Post TikTok host and producer, Joseph Ferguson, to explore how journalists and news organizations are meeting a dramatically altered landscape and the best way to navigate new media and the information maelstrom.

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[00:08]
Stacey Abrams
Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. As you might have guessed, I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. People have always been hungry for the news. Town criers used to belt out what the people needed to know from the streets or in marketplaces. Early newsletters became newspapers, and when radio got pictures, we got TV news. When I was growing up, to find out what happened in the world that day, you read the newspaper and you watched the evening news. If you were lucky, you had three options. The NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw.
[00:41]
Paolo Ramos
Good evening.
[00:42]
Stacey Abrams
Seventeen years ago, the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather, Dateline Dharan, Saudi Arabia.
[00:48]
Paolo Ramos
A car truck bomb has exploded in an area where 2,000 US servicemen and their families live.
[00:55]
Stacey Abrams
And our family favorite, ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. Astonishing news from East Germany, where the.
[01:02]
Joseph Ferguson
East German authorities have said, in essence, that the Berlin Wall doesn't mean anything anymore.
[01:06]
Stacey Abrams
And to be fair, CNN had Bernard Shaw and PBS gave us Robert McNeil and Jim Lehrer. Unfortunately, no women anchored the evening newscast only in daytime, and no one was my age. Then something radical happened in the late 1980s and early 90s.
[01:24]
Paolo Ramos
MTV News, you.
[01:29]
Joseph Ferguson
First.
[01:31]
Stacey Abrams
MTV News became the first national news organization to bridge the gap between current events and pop culture without talking down to young people. For older millennials and many Gen Xers like yours truly, MTV News not only broke ground, it covered a lot of ground. Movies, music, TBAs, left eye and Chilly.
[01:51]
Paolo Ramos
Are finally putting the finishing touches on their first new album since 1994's Crazy Sexy Cool.
[01:56]
Stacey Abrams
We learned about abortion rights back when we had them.
[01:59]
Paolo Ramos
29 states now have laws allowing teen girls to make abortion decisions without notifying.
[02:03]
Joseph Ferguson
Their parents if they can convince a.
[02:05]
Stacey Abrams
Judge that they're mature enough to make such a decision. We learned about the passing of an icon.
[02:09]
Joseph Ferguson
Nirvana leader Kurt Cobain, an extraordinarily gifted.
[02:12]
Paolo Ramos
Singer, songwriter and guitarist, was found dead.
[02:14]
Joseph Ferguson
In Seattle on Friday morning, apparently a suicide.
[02:17]
Stacey Abrams
Where we get our news often shapes our understanding of the topic and ourselves, and it relies on the trust we have in the messenger. We are in the midst of a major election, yes, but other topics are swirling through our communities, to name a few. We've got access to affordable housing, the conflict in Gaza, the loss of abortion rights, the widening chasm between political parties, ideologies, and basic definitions about a person's humanity. These messengers also decide what not to discuss. Civil wars raging in the Congo or Sudan, abductions that aren't likely to grab headlines, or complicated explanations about economic impacts like tariffs or capital gains. The list goes on and on and so too do the places where you might hunt for answers. The issue is, does the messenger get it right? Well, here at Assembly Required, we try to unpack root causes, but we also want to understand not only how we got here, but what's going on that can move us forward in the storm of voices who are telling us what's true, what to do, or whose fault it is. The messenger and the medium matter Now I grew up during the advent of cable news networks. I came of age as more outlets proliferated, and I served in public office during the dominance of talk radio. And now we've got social media feeds, podcasts, and micro sites that are explaining the world to even more people. What the news tells us helps shape a shared understanding of the world, and it serves as a way to connect even the most disparate communities. I may not have agreed with my high school nemesis about who should be president, but we at least had the same facts to argue about. Young people today are emblematic of why we should care about the demise of these shared news outlets, especially ones that cater to a youth consciousness. As young people shape their political and civic identities, it's natural to seek out news coverage that speaks directly to them, now more than ever. But for young and older alike, social media is ready to supply an endless array of accounts that call into question the difference between entertainment and news to tell us what is or is not relevant. When the number of voices weighing in on an issue becomes overwhelming, users have to figure out what to listen to on any given topic. These days, the overload of content on a for you page makes it harder for most people to navigate false information or to find real information. And so does parsing through whatever the algorithm is feeding you. So what do we do? We listen to those of the generation that will be in charge of how we understand much of the world going forward. And I'd prefer to hear what they have to say sooner rather than later, so I'm going to the source. Today's guests are Paolo Ramis, a journalist, author, and an alum of Vice News, as well as the Washington Post Joseph Ferguson, a producer and host of the news outlet's TikTok account. We'll dive into how newsmakers and organizations are creating this century's version of the town square so we can all better understand the best way to navigate the onslaught of information and make sense of what we learn. More after the break. Paolo Ramos and Joseph Ferguson welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. It's great to have you.
[05:48]
Paolo Ramos
So good to be here. Thank you so much.
[05:50]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, thank you for having me.
[05:52]
Stacey Abrams
I opened the episode talking about how I was first introduced to the news, and I want to learn about your individual journeys. Paola, your introduction may have been a bit different as your father was a journalist. Do you have a story about how news media and journalism entered your world whether you wanted it to or not?
[06:10]
Paolo Ramos
No, I think I was almost born into it from all aspects of my family. My father's a journalist, my mother's a journalist, my grandfather's a journalist. So I almost had no option but to be standing where I am today. I think the story for me actually starts in something that's rooted in sort of the immigrant experience in this country. My father left Mexico in the 80s because he couldn't cover the news in Mexico at that time the way that he wanted to. And so he came to this country for that reason. My grandfather was a political prisoner under Fidel Castro, and so. So he too fled to this country because he couldn't sort of tell the news the way that he wanted to. And then my mother, as a Cuban exile, as a very young Cuban exile, came of age in a Spain that was in the midst of a transition from Franco to democracy. And so I came up in a family environment where this idea of freedom of expression and freedom of assembly now, this idea of becoming who you want to be was very much ingrained to me since the start. Now, I grew up in watching my father do the news as a news anchor in his studio. I grew up watching my mother write columns, my grandfather write books. And so those were sort of the principles that I then pursued, starting first in politics, but then now as a journalist, now that this idea that in this country it is my right and to do what perhaps my parents couldn't do in both Cuba and Mexico back then.
[07:33]
Stacey Abrams
Sis, it's starting first in politics. Tell me a little bit about that.
[07:36]
Paolo Ramos
I graduated from Barnard College, and I graduated right as the time that President Obama was stepping into the White House. And so I think it makes sense, sort of given my parents journeys, that I was very much, you know, part of the generation that was influenced and believed in this idea of hope and change. And so the second I graduated from college, I moved to D.C. i started as an intern in the Obama White House, miraculously got hired. And so the first, you know, the first years of my career was politics. And I was very much inspired by that movement, by that coalition. I started in the Obama White House. I worked the 2012 reelection campaign in Chicago. I moved back to New York city for Hillary Clinton's 2016 political campaign. And then I'd made the turn into journalism once I figured out after we lost that election that I could use my power better in media and sort of ask the tough questions that I really wanted to ask in politics, but felt like I couldn't outside. And ever since, I've. I've never looked back.
[08:37]
Stacey Abrams
Well, Joseph, I saw you making a very encouraging face when she mentioned the word power. Can you talk a little bit about your introduction to the world of journalism and how power has played a role in how you think about the media and your place in it?
[08:52]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I think so. My introduction to politics. My dad, I don't think he'll get mad at this description, but he's a history nerd. We always talked about history in a way that he made it interesting as a computer, competing set of powers and ideals, as people, as groups of people wanting a thing, having it out. And then maybe something happens after that. I got introduced to it, like in the international space. I think Iran Contra was the first thing I really remember learning a lot about. I remember my dad breaking out an atlas and showing me where all the countries are and what the narratives were and all that kind of stuff. Then I went to I have a stutter. I have a speech disability. And my speech therapist recommended model United nations because it involves lots of public speaking. You have to stand up, you have to articulate yourself, and also you have to go up to people you don't know and try to whip votes for your fake resolution and just really being in people's faces. And I think that really brought me out of my shell when it comes to news and politics. And I think that understanding with model UN understanding your voice and your power, and even you could be a small country whipping votes, big resolution. So it really helped me understand competing interests, what people want and how to make a deal in that really weird, like, almost trite sense. But it was. It was a good exercise in talking to people and really understanding what they want. And I think through that, I kind of was just like, catapulted into journalism and making these videos.
[10:40]
Stacey Abrams
Well, for both of you, there was this early exposure not only to journalism and history and politics, but also the idea of questioning. You grew up in families. That encouraged you. It seems to ask questions to be curious, and that seems to have shaped not only your careers, but how you've approached it. So I'm going to start with you, Paola. Can you talk a little bit about the power of asking these questions and how You've thought about that as you think about the stories you're going to tell next?
[11:10]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I mean, I think that was the beauty and the privilege of growing up around journalists, that that was sort of mirrored for me. And so one of the first things that my father told me was, as a journalist, the first responsibility that you have is to hold those in power accountable. No, that was always, like, his lesson for me, no matter where you are, like, if you have the pen and you have the microphone, that's what you have to do.
[11:34]
Stacey Abrams
Right.
[11:34]
Paolo Ramos
And so I grew up watching this man, like, being kicked out of Donald Trump's press conference and going to Venezuela and being kicked out by an autocratic figure like Nicolas Maduro. I watched him call President Obama deporter in chief, watched them kicked out of Mexican press conferences. And it seems funny, but it's because he sort of taught me, when you have those, you know, initial 10 minutes with these important, powerful figures, take those five minutes as if they would be gone. No, as if that first or that second question would be the last question that you will and that you could be able to ask those figures. And so that was the first question sort. The first lesson that I learned from him, from my mom as a journalist, I perhaps learned an even more important thing that we often don't talk about as journalists, which is lead with empathy. Not just the questioning. Isn't the most important thing go and walk into these stories with empathy? And from my grandfather, I learned what we never talk about as journalists, which is the importance to kind of, like, know when you have to shut your mouth and listen. No, the act of listening, of allowing the stories and the conversations and the interviews to take you somewhere else, because oftentimes that leads to the best stories. And so through those three lessons, I really tried to. I'm not there yet. I'm still learning. I'm still trying to be the better version of myself. But that's sort of what leads my work. No? Whether I'm interviewing a member of Congress, whether I'm interviewing an insurrectionist, whether I'm interviewing an asylum seeker at the border, those three principles guide my work.
[13:07]
Stacey Abrams
Well, Joseph, you talked a little bit about history. And asking questions of history has become a very fraught conversation these days. In fact, we're encouraged to not remember history. Can you talk a little bit about how you see the intersection of your power to ask questions, but also how the work you do illuminates the history that leads us to this moment?
[13:31]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I think that's my goal in journalism. I truly feel like my role is to provide clarity and to help people understand the world around them. I think when we see headlines and we see news clips and things might not make sense like here or there, it's to provide a cohesive narrative around all of the seemingly random events that we have today. And my first show at my, the first show I ever did was called In Context, where we would put the news in context and we would kind of display everything out. So whether or not you think of this, this news event, which you will. But this is what happened here is the, the, the clearest, most condensed, most concise version of this event, tying it to history. Because nothing happens in a vacuum.
[14:23]
Stacey Abrams
Well today. And both of you use really, I think, interesting language. Today, many people, especially those under 30, turn to social media. TikTok, for example, not only for news, but also for community. Paolo, you mentioned the importance of empathy and Joseph, you talked about just putting things in context. And the language that's been used to describe this is that today people value sense making where they gain information and understanding shapes how they process it. And so, Joseph, I'm gonna start with you. How did the community you found in gaming shape your understanding that news could be targeted to you as a young person?
[15:05]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, for sure. So when I was 12 or 13, I played, me and my buddies, we played this game called Maplestory. It's like a 2D side scroller game, but you can play with all your friends and you're all there. It was really fun. We would go and there was an update for the game that was coming out that was like going to fundamentally like reshape the way we were going to play this game. And I remember reading a story about it in this, in Game Informer. And I read this story and these words on the screen were going to affect like the way I spent my days after school. And that kind of like connection between something like this little hobby that I had here and like journalism was very like, in a really weird way it connected the dots. It was like, oh, wow, you can report on these things. These things are knowable. They, they went to developers and spoke to them. There are people making the game and the journalists can talk to them and they can tell me what they said. Like, it was just, it was very surreal and it was, it was like to steal a Jimmy Neutron reference. It was a blame a brain blast moment. And I was like, wow, my world has opened up. So that's kind of like a very fun entry into like journalism for me.
[16:15]
Stacey Abrams
Opala. I'M curious, you've mentioned your parents, your grandparents. What was your first singular moment separate from your family, where you thought about how the news spoke to you and how you use it to speak to other people?
[16:29]
Paolo Ramos
So it takes me back to the very first time that I did a TV appearance in Telemundo, right, Which is the one of the main Spanish language networks in this country. And I mean, I don't even remember when this was. This must have, you know, maybe 2014 is. I remember the very first time I'm in 30 Rock here in New York City. They take me to the makeup room, and the makeup artist essentially says, I'm going to sort of do your makeup the way that De Le Mundo wants you to look on screen. I said, okay. And so I sort of closed my eyes, and within the next, like, 10 minutes, I literally opened my eyes and it was. It was like, honestly, like, looking at a different person. There was like. And I'm someone that, like, I don't. I obviously, you know, don't. Don't wear makeup. I dress. I want to dress, but it was like, you know, I had so much mascara on and, like, and all this lipstick and my. I mean, I look like a different version of myself. And I remember going on air for the first time and feeling so uncomfortable, Right. And what was happening in that moment was that, you know, these. That institution was molding me in the way. In the same way that I grew up watching these sort of Spanish language institutions, which was women had to act and talk and appear a certain way. Men also had to act and talk and appear a certain way. And it was that image that I thought was what I had to strive for if I wanted to be a Latino journalist in the United States. And I told myself, I will never do that again. So if you ever put on MSNBC or De Limundo or Univision today, you will never see me conforming to that image. And so that just made me think, for me, growing up, I didn't have, Yes, I had my family as a reference, but I didn't have the reference of, like, you know, young, queer Latinos on tv. No. Or stories that sort of broke with the stereotypes that I had grown up with around what it meant to be a Latino in this country and what it meant to, you know, love the way that I love. I always go back to, like, that moment because that. That is like the day that I told myself, like, I will. I will tell the news differently, to Joseph's point, like, I will try to explain things differently and try to create like another image of what it means to be a journalist in this space.
[18:41]
Stacey Abrams
Thinking about that for both of you, there's the Jimmy Neutron reference, which is young for me, but old for a lot of people listening. There's the how do you find your space and how do you find your place when no one looks like you or seems to reflect who you are? That seems to be the tension that is the most pertinent for Gen Z and Gen Alpha. They are coming of age in a world where those who are older, millennials, Gen X, like myself, boomers, where we were not always permitted that ability. And they're trying to find community and make sense of the world around them. And journalism is often how you do that. You hear the stories of people around you, what we call the news, and that helps us shape what we think the world is supposed to be. Can you both talk? And I'll start with you, Paola. Can you talk about the potential weaknesses and the strengths of these new ways of finding each other and therefore finding ourselves?
[19:43]
Paolo Ramos
I mean, I think at least when it comes to the Latino audience, I think the challenge is that there's so many unknowns, there's so much uncertainty, and I actually think it's a good thing. I think for so many years, whether it's through media or in politics, I think there's been this, this idea that we knew what Latino voters and the Latino audience was like, right? And I think once again, if I compare sort of my role as a journalist today and what my father's role has been, we're talking to completely different audiences, right? Like for the last 30 plus years, if you wanted to talk to Latinos, you talked to them in Spanish. You centered your stories around immigration, and every so often, perhaps, you know, you put in a little Spanglish word over there. Now we're talking about a Latino electorate and Latino audience where the fastest growing segment within us are third generation Latinos, right? And so even if you look at the numbers, the majority of us are us born, the majority of us are under age 50 years old. The majority of us consume news not in Spanish, but in English. We no longer go into Univision and Telemundo, we go to social media. If you ask me right now, like, what's the best way to reach a young Latino? I don't think there's been enough studies out there, enough data out there, enough intentionality to really understand the way that this, like, you know, the fastest growing segment is trying to consume news. What I do know is that the challenge as a journalist is that I know that I can no longer just do a hit on MSNBC without putting something on TikTok, because I know that I will never reach a young Latino just on NBC. No, I know that if I'm putting content on social media, and, Joseph, you know this more than anyone. The facts that I am trying to tell people will also be countered with the amount of mis and disinformation that is flooding in the same circles and the same WhatsApp circles that a lot of young Latinos are on, because as they're consuming news from me, they're also trying to stay in touch with their families and. Right. So I think there's all these, like, political, cultural dynamics that are happening. And at the same time, no longer are the days where, you know, you got to just sit on your couch at 6:30pm and watch my dad's newscast. That's. That's completely gone.
[21:52]
Stacey Abrams
And Joseph, as I kick it to you, we know that young black men in particular are one of the chief targets of disinformation. We know that much in the way that Paola is describing young Latinos. The same is true for diverse audiences, especially for young black men and young black women. Can you talk a bit about the weaknesses and the strengths and particularly the work that you've been doing around these conversations?
[22:16]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I mean, I think that, to Paolo's point, I think the space is competitive. Right. I think that when you're going on social media, there's a lot of different voices saying a lot of different things. And the best way I have learned how to counteract that is constantly trying to prove. Give the audiences something of value. Right. Not. Not necessarily always just throwing them the red meat that I think that they would want to hear, but actually diving into some analysis that'll make you have your Jimmy Neutron moment where you're like, oh, w. I understand this thing differently now. I think that, like, when people talk about vertical video, I HEAR People say TikTok a lot. And TikTok is, I think, like the one right now, but we are everywhere. Like, TikTok, I think, is the most popular one. But we are everywhere. We're making stuff on Instagram, we're making stuff on YouTube shorts. We are trying to get people where they are, and we don't want. I feel a lot of pride knowing that our videos are just going to come up when you're scrolling and then you'll see it and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is why. This is. This. This is Crazy. And then you don't. I'm not asking you to go to our website and sign up. I'm not asking you to go off platform. We're going to come where you are, speak the language of the platform and try to earn your loyalty with our analysis and our fact based reporting.
[23:37]
Stacey Abrams
So to follow that a little bit more, is there a cheat code that we should use? Who when we're trying to figure out how to engage audiences to get them to consume information, to do that kind of analysis? What's the cheat code that you use that helps, you know, achieve this very complex and often very disparate set of issues and pull them together?
[24:02]
Joseph Ferguson
So what I'm going to say is going to sound reductive without getting too much into like audience strategy. But I think number one is authenticity. I think that like audiences will be able to sniff out if you are not being yourself. Like they can just look in your eyes and tell that's not who you are. And I think they're going to call that out in the comment section. They're going to make memes about how you're fake. Like it is going to be relentless and they're going to see it. And I think number two, which is something just like has been a guiding light for my career is like make stuff that you would want to see on the Internet. I think that as special and unique as everybody is, I think that there's a, we share a lot of commonalities and if you want to see it, someone else is going to want to see it and they're going to share it with their friend who wants to see it. So I think that if as long as you are being authentically yourself and making the stuff that you would want to see, it's the misinformation space is always going to be competitive. Lying is always going to be easier than telling the truth. But I think that when you do this kind of good work and when, and you do it consistently, you earn the credibility from your audience and they're going to take your, your, your word over, you know, Whoever, whoever on TikTok.
[25:10]
Stacey Abrams
Well, you both have audiences that are broad. I mean, yes, you are both younger. Yes, you tend to use mediums that are particularly, I think salient for younger viewers, younger watchers. But you've got a lot of folks, you've got older, you've got people who are coming to you, as you pointed out, Joseph, they're coming to you on YouTube and the Washington Post. So can you talk both of you? And I'll start with you, Joseph. How important is it to you to explore the new ways to engage your audiences given the generational divides? Do you have an audience that you're speaking to and you let everyone else overhear it, or do you think about the differentiation in age and experience for the audience you're talking to?
[25:55]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So when I cut up the audience and I think about who's going to be watching this video, I think I cut it on platform lines, not necessarily age. I think that, like, the platform has a specific language that they speak. Twitch is different than TikTok, is different than YouTube, is different than Discord. And I think that, like, all of these platforms, you can optimize for them. I think it starts with, obviously, great reporting and a good, good solid video base. But then you optimize for the language of that particular platform and maybe you optimize for the UI of that platform because, like, I know that I can't put a graphic here because the cut, because, like, the comment section is going to be right there, so it's not going to do that. So I think that, like, optimizing for the language of the platform is the most important thing. And I think whoever watches it there is going to watch it there because they're there because they like consuming content on that platform. And I'm going to optimize our Washington Post reporting for this platform, and I'll throw in some humor. And I think that is how you make it stick. It starts with great reporting, optimizing for that platform, and just trying to speak their language. You never want to come in there, like, hey, fellow kids, like, because that's, that's, that's not going to work. They're going to see right through it, Go be yourself. But try to, you know, ingratiate yourself into that community.
[27:18]
Stacey Abrams
Paolo, you.
[27:19]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, for me, I think I'm. I'm always conscious of the. I think one of the things that often happens, particularly with, like, the younger Latina audience, is that you start neglecting your roots. No, you start neglecting the, like, the Spanish language audience, the Telemundo, Univisions of the world. And that is something that I've noticed around me at all. And so, so I'm always trying to, like, hop around three spaces. Telemundo, the sort of mainstream cable news world in English and then social media. And I think for the three of those spaces, I try and go into it understanding that I have different missions when I go on Telemundo and I speak Spanish. I know that my audience are gonna be 60 plus year old, mostly Latina women. And I know that I have those three, four minutes to sort of push the conversation. Right. And what I mean by that is, for instance, when I go into a Telemundo, oftentimes you won't hear the word abortion, for instance. It's just an example. And that's because there's a stereotype out there and a myth that older Latina women are scared of that word, which I fundamentally don't believe in. And so I try and sprinkle in language that I think at least in my eyes, will change the conversation, whether I'm talking about abortion and saying things like that explicitly or I'm talking about being a young queer person. So that's sort of my de la Mundo audience high. When I go on msnbc, I try and think of this idea of like, how can I frame conversations around the border? And all these issues that perhaps seem distant and unfamiliar and foreign to someone that's like in the Midwest. And I try and connect the dots so that someone that's hearing about asylum seekers at the border, that is also consumed with the dis and misinformation and the sort of anti immigrant narrative that is also entering a lot of liberal spaces, how can I get that person to humanize someone at the border? And then when I go into social media and a TikTok, at least what's worked for me for sure. I think Joseph, like, yes, obviously you have to be super authentic. But I think the one thing that's worked for me is like breaking things down for young people with facts. Like there's like the best, the best videos that I've done are the ones where I give people the facts. Here's what you're hearing from Trump, here's what you're hearing from the Vice President. Here are the facts. Do with those facts whatever you want. And that's been working well, at least for now. But I think to your point, I think you have to be a little bit more open. At least I am not open to educating myself. What is it that young people want? And also how do I bring them into my world? Bringing them into the dnc, which Joseph does incredibly well, bringing them into my world of reporting. I think that entering your world also works a lot in that space.
[29:55]
Joseph Ferguson
I think just to piggyback off what you said, I think that's so interesting. I think because we're working with video, visuals are going to be key. If you can provide video from a thing, if you can provide. If you can actually touch and hold something tangible. You're not just talking about a concept. You're like, no, it's right behind me. I have this thing in my hand. I think that gives such a visceral feeling for the audience when they can go like, oh, that is. It's there. So I think that's. Yeah, just to piggyback off what you said. I think that was great.
[30:25]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I think that dovetails nicely into this next question, which is we know that the formalized sort of targeted news outlets with their traditional staffing and their standards are disappearing. We've seen this happen over and over again. We know local news is vanishing, including the local newsroom. And instead. And in place of that, we have a lot of do it yourself replacements, where people are trying to fill in the gap or they're trying to exploit the moment where if you look a little professional, you might be able to swindle an audience until believing that you're giving them real news. Can you talk, both of you? And I'll start with you, Paola. What does this evolution of what constitutes journalism mean to you? Does it concern you? Are you excited about it? What do you think about what's happening?
[31:16]
Paolo Ramos
No, I mean, I think what it means for us right now is that you have to be everywhere. No, you have to be present everywhere. You have to be consistent. Because I think at the end of the day, what breaks through the conspiracy theories, what breaks through the myths and disinformation is the trust that you're able to achieve with that audience. And that trust comes with consistency, with your presence everywhere. And so I think that, to me, is still the guy guiding principle, which is still a guiding principle in journalism. Build trust with your audience. That's the same, obviously. Counter with facts always. And to Joseph's point, be authentic. Not at the end of the day, like, if you're. If you're a host name, if you're a reporter, people want to. Want to trust, you know, and, like, hearing you. And so the biggest difference for me is that now I know that I have to be in every single platform. I know that I have to compete with the YouTubers, with the TikTokers. I know that if I'm on MSNBC, maybe you'll get like 500,000 views. If you go on TikTok, maybe you can get a million views. And so that's just. That's always my recommendation. No, it's not enough with one platform.
[32:21]
Stacey Abrams
And Joseph, I mean, as someone who was really on the vanguard of Creating some of the new ways we consume the news. Are you excited about this evolution? Are you concerned about it? What are you thinking about what's happening?
[32:35]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely of two minds because my, one of me and my co host Carmela both came up in local news. She was doing local news in Rochester, I was doing local news in Charlotte and in Atlanta. So I have a very attached role to local news. I think it's important I see how it affects people. You know, when I was in Atlanta, people used to tell me they were, they got the paper every day for 50 years and like it was a real institution there. And I think that one supporting local news and having local newsrooms be very agile and what, what they're doing I think is a hu. Huge role in this. I, I think that local newsrooms getting more funding and being agile in what, what they can and cannot do is great. And then on the influencer side or just on like the Internet side, I guess we, there are people doing great work too. Like I think V who is great. They are doing phenomenal work. And it's really about finding information you can trust. Good verifiable information. I think that the allure of misinformation is that it just feels good and it's like, oh, this is going to scratch and itch in my brain. But good analysis will always be bad information. And I think that when you. The problem that we run into is that it's easier to turn on a camera and lie than it is to do really good reporting and thoroughly fact check things. So I think that how we get out of this is doing lots of really good reporting. And again, that sounds very reductive and it sounds very but like where the people are. I think that if a lot of really good journalists get on TikTok or get on YouTube shorts or Instagram reels and start. Not only that, but something that we've seen a lot of success in is showing our process. Like when you say this investigative Reporter combed through 5,000 pages to find these discrepancies, you show the stacks of papers that they went through and you can kind of like walk them through all the work that went into it. You, they didn't just turn on a camera and have an opinion. They like went through the hard work of researching. And I think that if we can show that process, I think that helps gain trust. And then the analysis where people are watching it is going to create loyal subscribers because they know they're getting valuable information. I hope that wasn't too wordy.
[35:03]
Paolo Ramos
No, no, no. And if I can add something, I think what I wanted to say is, like, and I didn't mean to discredit it before, like, I can't do any authentic reporting on the ground without the help of local journalists. And that is. That is. That is truth at the border in Mexico or in the United States. Right. And I think, you know, that is. That's. That is still the. One of the foundations of, like, good journalism. Like, as someone that is in New York City, you know, that is sort of, like, far away from where things are happening. Like, my number one resources in my number one education continues to be from the local fixers in Mexico, from my local fixers at the border, from my. From my journalists in the States. And so I think I just wanted to make sure that I added that. No, because obviously there's a fixation with social media, and obviously we have to be everywhere, like I said before. But the real facts and the eyes on the ground continue to be the local journalists. And that remains true whether there's three staffers left or 10 staffers left. No. So I just wanted to make sure that I added that.
[36:10]
Stacey Abrams
For both of you. And I'm going to start with you, Joseph, on this one. So young people are the progenitors, and they are experts at consuming social media content. But as I mentioned before, they're not alone. What can other generations learn from young people when it comes to consuming the news? Like, what other skills would you encourage everyone at home to start to cultivate as news consumers in this new landscape?
[36:36]
Joseph Ferguson
Young news consumers are very sophisticated in the sense that they know, like, oh, this person is tied to this person. So that's why they're probably saying this. Like, they're very keenly aware of a bias. And I think just because it comes on a TV or a screen or something, I think they're very attuned and sensitive to words and phrases that sound like they're being planted or sound like, oh, that's not real. Or like they're. They're. They'll spot an AI image faster than someone else will. So I think that, like, what. I think older generations, even, you know, my millennial self over here, I think what we can do better is trying to spot. I'm trying to spot liars. Again, sounds reductive. But trying to spot someone who is being deceptive and having an understanding of the breadth of their coverage. Right. I. I think a lot different court cases that we've had where you saw a narrative Being pushed with a court case or with that was just on. So on social media, someone maybe reading a transcript here and there. And then you have a bad faith actor who has an, a bigger point that they want to make. And they're using this court case to kind of like further that bad faith point and not really dealing with actual, with the actual facts of this particular case, but they say, but they're trying to portray a larger narrative. So I say that all to say, I think that, look, young people do a really good job at looking at someone's track record and applying that to what they're saying now, to seeing if these two match up, if they're acting in bad faith or if they are really a principled person taking a stand.
[38:15]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I go back to, to like Christiana man pores like with the words that she always said no, which is like, be truthful, not neutral. And I say this because I'm noticing at least in the Spanish language media world, this tendency, particularly when there was, when there was a moment that we believe that Donald Trump would walk into the White House, I noticed this tendency to have this, both sides framing of everything. And you can get into a whole, into a whole debate whether that's, that's morally correct, whether as journalists, that's our responsibility to always have both sides. But oftentimes what that has meant in the last year has meant that every time you have this journalist making an analysis in places like Telemundo and Univision, it's not just that they want to counter that with a Republican voice, but that there's not enough vetting when they do that sort of counter argument with. I've been in debates with someone that was in the insurrection with someone that is constantly, constantly spreading mis and disinformation. And so I believe, like, we're in this, like, really interesting crux in like the Spanish language media world where they really fundamentally, like, things are shifting now. There's this tendency to want to shift a little bit to the right and to sort of appear to be more moderate because they think that that's where the audience is going. And so I just, I, you know, I encourage always, like the older producers there, the older anchors to stick to those words of like, be truthful, not neutral. And it keeps sticking to the facts. Just because, like over 50% of Republicans believe in the great replacement theory does not mean that we need to have spokespeople that are pushing those theories on air. And so I think that's this really like, complex area that we're in just because so many people believe in the Big Lie does not mean that they deserve a spot on air. And just getting folks to understand that we have to pull the audience back to the facts, like, and I think that's kind of the hard part of our jobs right now for all of us, that we're not. This isn't media as we know it. Like, we're kind of entering this really unknown territory in media and in politics where after almost a decade of mis and disinformation and after, like, four years of the Big Lie and these sort of fringe theories becoming normalized, like, that's what we're up against. No, like, we're up against sort of bringing back the audience to the facts and to news as we know it, and that no longer exists.
[40:43]
Joseph Ferguson
To your point, when we were at the RNC and the dnc, we did a fact check every day. And seeing the audience's reaction to that has been really, really positive and great. They're like, thank you for fact checking both sides. Thank you for showing that you can do objective reporting. So I think that there is a real. To your point, there is a real hunger for what is real and what is not, and just lay out some of the facts for me. So we've seen a really good reception of that from our audience.
[41:11]
Stacey Abrams
Well, that's actually the perfect way to bring out my last question. So one of the things we're exploring with this podcast is how do we talk about challenging, complex, often problematic issues that we're all facing, but doing it with a perspective that says we can do something about it? And you guys talked about fact checking. You talked about making sure you're holding producers accountable. What are some other strategies that news organizations should employ, not only to reach more diverse audiences who are in search of a new way to news, but to make sure that when they get there, they stay there because they trust what they're getting?
[41:49]
Paolo Ramos
I think we're also trying to figure that out. I think one of my strategies has been it's a debate, right? Like, the debate is, do you give space and air time to people that. That are fundamentally spreading lies? Do you silo them? I think that's the conversations that I have constantly with my producers and executives and what I've tried to do. I've spent the last five years talking to a lot of Latino Trump supporters, many of whom fundamentally disapprove of my being, many of whom are spreading lies and believe in Christian nationalism and storm the insurrection and are, you know, border vigilantes and are The Moms for Liberties of the World. And part of the research has been how can I get to the root of what would fuel someone to believe that they belonged in a crowd of white people in January 6th? Like, what would make a Latino believe so hard in that? And oftentimes the story becomes less about the politics and more about the sort of complex humanity of a Latina. Right. Like, you strip the politics apart and you put the news to a side and it becomes about, like, the story of, like, the racial baggage that we carry to this country from Latin America. Right. And it becomes about the story of being colonized for so many years and about the political traumas. And so that, to me, is part of the reporting that I think I have to do, and it is my duty to do as well. Let's sort of humanize where all of this is coming from, because then I have a small chance, a small chance of having better dialogues and more open dialogues, and then I get to the facts. No. But unless I can get someone to look at me in the eyes and to explain that journey, it's really hard. And so the way that I'm trying to do it is, as President Obama said during the dnc, it is also our duty to talk to those that disagree with us. And if you have that opportunity, then have a conversation with facts. That's sort of how I'm trying to approach it.
[43:51]
Stacey Abrams
Joseph, you got the last word.
[43:53]
Joseph Ferguson
Oh, boy. So I.
[43:55]
Paolo Ramos
It is a hard one.
[43:57]
Joseph Ferguson
Right? Right. I'm gonna try. I think that for me, I think it goes back to clarity and context. I think that. I don't. If someone watches my video, watches a video of mine and comes away with like, I know this bad thing is happening or this, this. This. This big thing is happening, but I don't really know why it's happening, then I think I've. I haven't done my job. I think that, like nameless, faceless bureaucrat a didn't do this. This department head from this org organization, from this part of the government is doing this thing, whether that be local, whether that be national fed, whatever. My goal is to put a name in a face to the things that are happening in your everyday life to the. To the places where you feel government or you don't, or that is. That is a decision that someone has made. So it's really laying out this body made this choice over here to do this and this, this. And I think if you make that in a digestible way, young audiences and just all audiences really want to hear that. So making everything clear and I think spelling it all out, like this person is doing this for this reason and this is why they want to do that, I think is what I've seen as the best way to communicate news and to provide a narrative around why things are happening. Not, they're not just like random events.
[45:20]
Stacey Abrams
Each week. We want to leave the audience with something, an opportunity to make a difference and a way to get involved or just get started on your own in a segment we like to call our toolkit. So just so you both know, here at assembly required, we try to encourage the audience to be curious, to do good and solve problems. And because of Paolo, we're now going to add the truthful, not neutral, with credit to Christiane Amanpour. But as people who understand the scope of journalism, from your parents generation to now, one of the ways I want us to think about doing good is how would you advise aspiring journalists to do good in this ever evolving landscape? Paolo, we'll start with you and then go to Joseph.
[46:03]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I mean, this sounds cheesy, but it was also the first lesson, one of the first lessons that was given to me, which was find your voice. And I say this because we're, we're all looking at the same stories, we're all looking at the same facts, we're all looking at this changing landscape. But you, you, the listener, there's only one angle that you can provide. You can always tell the story in a distinct way and you can always find something different. And all of that comes as the culmination of your lived experience and who you are. So I think understanding, like how to find your voice will completely change your trajectory in journalism.
[46:37]
Joseph Ferguson
As someone who their journalism job might not have existed 10 years ago, I think that, like, my perspective on it is it's about the message, not the medium. And find something that you want to talk about. For me, it was news and politics and it's something that I was really passionate about. And don't let anyone. Again, cheesy, but don't let anyone tell you that, like your thing isn't going to be good or your thing isn't popular or your thing won't take off. I think that as long as you are humble enough to take the constructive credit. Criticism. The constructive criticism, and driven enough to keep improving on the thing that you're making, I think you have no choice but. But to succeed. So I think, yeah, be yourself and work really hard.
[47:25]
Stacey Abrams
Fantastic. Well, look, one of the other pieces that we try to tackle here is solving problems and being curious. And back in 2017, PBS NewsHour's Student Reporting Labs turned to its network of teen reporters in urban and rural rural communities around the country to find out what young people really think about fake news, about how it's affected their lives and the role that journalism plays in their communities.
[47:49]
Paolo Ramos
I think it's important that teens don't only get their information from social media, but they get it from a multitude of news sources. So they would get it, they would not only read it from social media, but they would be able to expand their knowledge on the subject by reading from CNN, from Fox, from Huffington Post, etc. Because the best way to un understand a subject is to gain more information on it from different viewpoints.
[48:08]
Stacey Abrams
Well, as our commentator said, it's not only the best way to gain insight, it's also the best way to solve problems. So if you're curious to learn more and you want to solve the problem of misinformation and fake news, we invite you to check out PBS's misinformation overload at srl misinformationoverload.tumblr.com and speaking of curiosity, we want to hear your questions about navigating news sources. Send us an email at assemblyrequired or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. Paolo Ramos, Joseph Ferguson, thank you so much for being here with me. That's all from us today here at Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. We'll talk to you next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a Crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Stephen Roberts and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kirill Paulaviev is our video producer. Our theme song is by Vasilis Futopoulos. Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer and Samantha Slosberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams.

New Media and How Emerging Voices Are Shaping What We Know

September 12, 202400:49:50

Summary5 min read

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams: Episode Summary

Episode: New Media and How Emerging Voices Are Shaping What We Know
Release Date: September 12, 2024
Hosts: Stacey Abrams
Guests: Paolo Ramos (Journalist and Author) and Joseph Ferguson (Producer and Host of Washington Post's TikTok Account)
Produced by: Crooked Media

1. Introduction and Context

In the premiere episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams, host Stacey Abrams delves into the transformation of the news landscape, contrasting traditional media outlets with emerging voices in new media. Abrams sets the stage by reminiscing about her early experiences with news consumption—reading newspapers and watching evening news broadcasts from networks like NBC, CBS, and ABC. She highlights the evolution brought about by MTV News in the late 1980s and early 1990s, which bridged the gap between current events and pop culture, making news more accessible and relatable to younger audiences.

Abrams emphasizes the current challenge: while society faces complex issues such as affordable housing, conflicts like Gaza, and the erosion of abortion rights, the proliferation of media channels has made it difficult for audiences to discern trustworthy information amidst a storm of voices.

Notable Quote:
Stacey Abrams ([00:07]): “We can each do something, somewhere, soon.”

2. Personal Journeys into Journalism

a. Paolo Ramos's Background

Paolo Ramos shares his deep-rooted connection to journalism, influenced by his family's legacy. With both parents and his grandfather being journalists, Ramos was almost destined to pursue a career in the field. His family’s immigrant experience, fleeing authoritarian regimes in Mexico and Cuba, instilled in him a commitment to freedom of expression.

Notable Quote:
Paolo Ramos ([06:10]): “I almost had no option but to be standing where I am today.”

Transitioning from politics to journalism after working on Obama's 2012 reelection and Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, Ramos found his true calling in media, where he could ask the tough questions he felt constrained to pose in politics.

b. Joseph Ferguson's Background

Joseph Ferguson recounts his introduction to politics and journalism through his family's discussions on history and power dynamics. Overcoming a speech disability through participation in Model United Nations, Ferguson developed strong communication skills and a passion for storytelling. His early experiences in local news in Charlotte and Atlanta solidified his dedication to providing clarity and context in reporting.

Notable Quote:
Joseph Ferguson ([08:51]): “Understanding your voice and your power… really helped me understand competing interests.”

3. The Role of Empathy and Questioning in Journalism

Abrams steers the conversation towards the foundational principles that guide both Ramos and Ferguson's journalistic endeavors. Ramos emphasizes accountability and empathy, drawing lessons from his family's journalistic integrity.

Notable Quotes:
Paolo Ramos ([11:10]): “Hold those in power accountable.”
Paolo Ramos ([11:34]): “Lead with empathy.”
Paolo Ramos ([11:58]): “Know when you have to shut your mouth and listen.”

Ferguson echoes the importance of providing historical context to current events, ensuring that journalism not only reports facts but also connects them to broader narratives.

Notable Quote:
Joseph Ferguson ([13:31]): “Nothing happens in a vacuum.”

4. Evolving Media Landscape and Audience Targeting

The discussion shifts to how social media platforms like TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube have become primary news sources for younger generations. Ramos and Ferguson explore the strengths and weaknesses of these new media channels in fostering informed communities.

Paolo Ramos: Highlights the shift in the Latino audience, noting the rise of third-generation Latinos who consume news predominantly in English and through social media rather than traditional Spanish-language networks.

Notable Quote:
Paolo Ramos ([19:42]): “We can no longer just do a hit on MSNBC without putting something on TikTok.”

Joseph Ferguson: Discusses the importance of authenticity and platform-specific strategies to engage audiences. He emphasizes producing content that resonates with the unique language and culture of each social media platform.

Notable Quote:
Joseph Ferguson ([24:02]): “Authenticity… audiences will be able to sniff out if you are not being yourself.”

5. Challenges of Disinformation and Misinformation

Both guests address the rampant spread of disinformation, particularly targeting young Black men and Latinos. Ramos speaks to the necessity of maintaining trust through consistent, fact-based reporting across multiple platforms. Ferguson underscores the difficulty of combating misinformation but remains optimistic about the role of thorough, authentic journalism in countering false narratives.

Notable Quotes:
Paolo Ramos ([21:51]): “We're up against bringing back the audience to the facts and to news as we know it.”
Joseph Ferguson ([32:34]): “Good reporting and thoroughly fact-checking… helps gain trust.”

6. Strategies for Engaging and Building Trust

Ramos and Ferguson elaborate on effective strategies for modern journalism:

Consistency and Multi-Platform Presence: Ramos asserts the need to maintain a presence across various media channels to build and sustain audience trust.
Authenticity and Value: Ferguson advises journalists to be authentic and provide valuable, analytical content that viewers would seek out independently.

Notable Quotes:
Paolo Ramos ([31:16]): “Build trust with your audience.”
Joseph Ferguson ([25:09]): “Make stuff that you would want to see on the Internet.”

7. The Future of Journalism and Advice for Aspiring Journalists

As the media landscape continues to evolve, Ramos and Ferguson offer guidance to aspiring journalists:

Find Your Voice: Ramos encourages journalists to develop a unique perspective shaped by their lived experiences.
Focus on the Message, Not the Medium: Ferguson advises concentrating on the substance of the reporting rather than the platform used to deliver it.

Notable Quotes:
Paolo Ramos ([46:02]): “Find your voice.”
Joseph Ferguson ([46:36]): “The message, not the medium.”

8. Conclusion and Toolkit Segment

In the final segment, Abrams introduces actionable strategies for listeners to combat misinformation and engage more deeply with news sources. Both guests reinforce the importance of multi-source information consumption and critical analysis.

Ramos emphasizes the necessity of presenting empathetic, humanizing stories to foster better dialogue and understanding. Ferguson highlights the significance of clarity and context in reporting to empower audiences with actionable knowledge.

Notable Quotes:
Paolo Ramos ([41:48]): “Humanize where all of this is coming from.”
Joseph Ferguson ([43:53]): “Clarity and context… is what I've seen as the best way to communicate news.”

Abrams wraps up the episode by inviting listeners to engage with the podcast’s toolkit, encouraging curiosity, problem-solving, and active participation in journalism.

Key Takeaways:

Empathy and Accountability: Essential traits for modern journalists to build trust and connect with diverse audiences.
Multi-Platform Presence: Necessary for reaching and maintaining engagement with younger, digitally native demographics.
Authenticity: Critical for distinguishing genuine reporting from disinformation.
Historical Context: Provides depth and understanding, preventing news from being perceived as isolated events.
Audience-Centric Strategies: Tailoring content to the unique cultures and preferences of each platform enhances relatability and impact.

Toolkit Recommendations:

Find Your Unique Voice: Leverage personal experiences to offer distinct perspectives in reporting.
Consume Diverse Sources: Encourage multi-source news consumption to gain comprehensive understanding.
Engage Authentically: Be genuine in communication to foster trust and credibility with audiences.
Provide Clarity and Context: Ensure that reporting not only presents facts but also explains the underlying reasons and implications.

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams continues to explore the dynamic intersection of journalism, media, and community engagement, offering listeners insightful discussions and practical tools to navigate the ever-changing news landscape.

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Transcript69 lines

[00:08]
Stacey Abrams
Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. As you might have guessed, I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. People have always been hungry for the news. Town criers used to belt out what the people needed to know from the streets or in marketplaces. Early newsletters became newspapers, and when radio got pictures, we got TV news. When I was growing up, to find out what happened in the world that day, you read the newspaper and you watched the evening news. If you were lucky, you had three options. The NBC Nightly News with Tom Brokaw.
[00:41]
Paolo Ramos
Good evening.
[00:42]
Stacey Abrams
Seventeen years ago, the CBS Evening News with Dan Rather, Dateline Dharan, Saudi Arabia.
[00:48]
Paolo Ramos
A car truck bomb has exploded in an area where 2,000 US servicemen and their families live.
[00:55]
Stacey Abrams
And our family favorite, ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. Astonishing news from East Germany, where the.
[01:02]
Joseph Ferguson
East German authorities have said, in essence, that the Berlin Wall doesn't mean anything anymore.
[01:06]
Stacey Abrams
And to be fair, CNN had Bernard Shaw and PBS gave us Robert McNeil and Jim Lehrer. Unfortunately, no women anchored the evening newscast only in daytime, and no one was my age. Then something radical happened in the late 1980s and early 90s.
[01:24]
Paolo Ramos
MTV News, you.
[01:29]
Joseph Ferguson
First.
[01:31]
Stacey Abrams
MTV News became the first national news organization to bridge the gap between current events and pop culture without talking down to young people. For older millennials and many Gen Xers like yours truly, MTV News not only broke ground, it covered a lot of ground. Movies, music, TBAs, left eye and Chilly.
[01:51]
Paolo Ramos
Are finally putting the finishing touches on their first new album since 1994's Crazy Sexy Cool.
[01:56]
Stacey Abrams
We learned about abortion rights back when we had them.
[01:59]
Paolo Ramos
29 states now have laws allowing teen girls to make abortion decisions without notifying.
[02:03]
Joseph Ferguson
Their parents if they can convince a.
[02:05]
Stacey Abrams
Judge that they're mature enough to make such a decision. We learned about the passing of an icon.
[02:09]
Joseph Ferguson
Nirvana leader Kurt Cobain, an extraordinarily gifted.
[02:12]
Paolo Ramos
Singer, songwriter and guitarist, was found dead.
[02:14]
Joseph Ferguson
In Seattle on Friday morning, apparently a suicide.
[02:17]
Stacey Abrams
Where we get our news often shapes our understanding of the topic and ourselves, and it relies on the trust we have in the messenger. We are in the midst of a major election, yes, but other topics are swirling through our communities, to name a few. We've got access to affordable housing, the conflict in Gaza, the loss of abortion rights, the widening chasm between political parties, ideologies, and basic definitions about a person's humanity. These messengers also decide what not to discuss. Civil wars raging in the Congo or Sudan, abductions that aren't likely to grab headlines, or complicated explanations about economic impacts like tariffs or capital gains. The list goes on and on and so too do the places where you might hunt for answers. The issue is, does the messenger get it right? Well, here at Assembly Required, we try to unpack root causes, but we also want to understand not only how we got here, but what's going on that can move us forward in the storm of voices who are telling us what's true, what to do, or whose fault it is. The messenger and the medium matter Now I grew up during the advent of cable news networks. I came of age as more outlets proliferated, and I served in public office during the dominance of talk radio. And now we've got social media feeds, podcasts, and micro sites that are explaining the world to even more people. What the news tells us helps shape a shared understanding of the world, and it serves as a way to connect even the most disparate communities. I may not have agreed with my high school nemesis about who should be president, but we at least had the same facts to argue about. Young people today are emblematic of why we should care about the demise of these shared news outlets, especially ones that cater to a youth consciousness. As young people shape their political and civic identities, it's natural to seek out news coverage that speaks directly to them, now more than ever. But for young and older alike, social media is ready to supply an endless array of accounts that call into question the difference between entertainment and news to tell us what is or is not relevant. When the number of voices weighing in on an issue becomes overwhelming, users have to figure out what to listen to on any given topic. These days, the overload of content on a for you page makes it harder for most people to navigate false information or to find real information. And so does parsing through whatever the algorithm is feeding you. So what do we do? We listen to those of the generation that will be in charge of how we understand much of the world going forward. And I'd prefer to hear what they have to say sooner rather than later, so I'm going to the source. Today's guests are Paolo Ramis, a journalist, author, and an alum of Vice News, as well as the Washington Post Joseph Ferguson, a producer and host of the news outlet's TikTok account. We'll dive into how newsmakers and organizations are creating this century's version of the town square so we can all better understand the best way to navigate the onslaught of information and make sense of what we learn. More after the break. Paolo Ramos and Joseph Ferguson welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. It's great to have you.
[05:48]
Paolo Ramos
So good to be here. Thank you so much.
[05:50]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, thank you for having me.
[05:52]
Stacey Abrams
I opened the episode talking about how I was first introduced to the news, and I want to learn about your individual journeys. Paola, your introduction may have been a bit different as your father was a journalist. Do you have a story about how news media and journalism entered your world whether you wanted it to or not?
[06:10]
Paolo Ramos
No, I think I was almost born into it from all aspects of my family. My father's a journalist, my mother's a journalist, my grandfather's a journalist. So I almost had no option but to be standing where I am today. I think the story for me actually starts in something that's rooted in sort of the immigrant experience in this country. My father left Mexico in the 80s because he couldn't cover the news in Mexico at that time the way that he wanted to. And so he came to this country for that reason. My grandfather was a political prisoner under Fidel Castro, and so. So he too fled to this country because he couldn't sort of tell the news the way that he wanted to. And then my mother, as a Cuban exile, as a very young Cuban exile, came of age in a Spain that was in the midst of a transition from Franco to democracy. And so I came up in a family environment where this idea of freedom of expression and freedom of assembly now, this idea of becoming who you want to be was very much ingrained to me since the start. Now, I grew up in watching my father do the news as a news anchor in his studio. I grew up watching my mother write columns, my grandfather write books. And so those were sort of the principles that I then pursued, starting first in politics, but then now as a journalist, now that this idea that in this country it is my right and to do what perhaps my parents couldn't do in both Cuba and Mexico back then.
[07:33]
Stacey Abrams
Sis, it's starting first in politics. Tell me a little bit about that.
[07:36]
Paolo Ramos
I graduated from Barnard College, and I graduated right as the time that President Obama was stepping into the White House. And so I think it makes sense, sort of given my parents journeys, that I was very much, you know, part of the generation that was influenced and believed in this idea of hope and change. And so the second I graduated from college, I moved to D.C. i started as an intern in the Obama White House, miraculously got hired. And so the first, you know, the first years of my career was politics. And I was very much inspired by that movement, by that coalition. I started in the Obama White House. I worked the 2012 reelection campaign in Chicago. I moved back to New York city for Hillary Clinton's 2016 political campaign. And then I'd made the turn into journalism once I figured out after we lost that election that I could use my power better in media and sort of ask the tough questions that I really wanted to ask in politics, but felt like I couldn't outside. And ever since, I've. I've never looked back.
[08:37]
Stacey Abrams
Well, Joseph, I saw you making a very encouraging face when she mentioned the word power. Can you talk a little bit about your introduction to the world of journalism and how power has played a role in how you think about the media and your place in it?
[08:52]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I think so. My introduction to politics. My dad, I don't think he'll get mad at this description, but he's a history nerd. We always talked about history in a way that he made it interesting as a computer, competing set of powers and ideals, as people, as groups of people wanting a thing, having it out. And then maybe something happens after that. I got introduced to it, like in the international space. I think Iran Contra was the first thing I really remember learning a lot about. I remember my dad breaking out an atlas and showing me where all the countries are and what the narratives were and all that kind of stuff. Then I went to I have a stutter. I have a speech disability. And my speech therapist recommended model United nations because it involves lots of public speaking. You have to stand up, you have to articulate yourself, and also you have to go up to people you don't know and try to whip votes for your fake resolution and just really being in people's faces. And I think that really brought me out of my shell when it comes to news and politics. And I think that understanding with model UN understanding your voice and your power, and even you could be a small country whipping votes, big resolution. So it really helped me understand competing interests, what people want and how to make a deal in that really weird, like, almost trite sense. But it was. It was a good exercise in talking to people and really understanding what they want. And I think through that, I kind of was just like, catapulted into journalism and making these videos.
[10:40]
Stacey Abrams
Well, for both of you, there was this early exposure not only to journalism and history and politics, but also the idea of questioning. You grew up in families. That encouraged you. It seems to ask questions to be curious, and that seems to have shaped not only your careers, but how you've approached it. So I'm going to start with you, Paola. Can you talk a little bit about the power of asking these questions and how You've thought about that as you think about the stories you're going to tell next?
[11:10]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I mean, I think that was the beauty and the privilege of growing up around journalists, that that was sort of mirrored for me. And so one of the first things that my father told me was, as a journalist, the first responsibility that you have is to hold those in power accountable. No, that was always, like, his lesson for me, no matter where you are, like, if you have the pen and you have the microphone, that's what you have to do.
[11:34]
Stacey Abrams
Right.
[11:34]
Paolo Ramos
And so I grew up watching this man, like, being kicked out of Donald Trump's press conference and going to Venezuela and being kicked out by an autocratic figure like Nicolas Maduro. I watched him call President Obama deporter in chief, watched them kicked out of Mexican press conferences. And it seems funny, but it's because he sort of taught me, when you have those, you know, initial 10 minutes with these important, powerful figures, take those five minutes as if they would be gone. No, as if that first or that second question would be the last question that you will and that you could be able to ask those figures. And so that was the first question sort. The first lesson that I learned from him, from my mom as a journalist, I perhaps learned an even more important thing that we often don't talk about as journalists, which is lead with empathy. Not just the questioning. Isn't the most important thing go and walk into these stories with empathy? And from my grandfather, I learned what we never talk about as journalists, which is the importance to kind of, like, know when you have to shut your mouth and listen. No, the act of listening, of allowing the stories and the conversations and the interviews to take you somewhere else, because oftentimes that leads to the best stories. And so through those three lessons, I really tried to. I'm not there yet. I'm still learning. I'm still trying to be the better version of myself. But that's sort of what leads my work. No? Whether I'm interviewing a member of Congress, whether I'm interviewing an insurrectionist, whether I'm interviewing an asylum seeker at the border, those three principles guide my work.
[13:07]
Stacey Abrams
Well, Joseph, you talked a little bit about history. And asking questions of history has become a very fraught conversation these days. In fact, we're encouraged to not remember history. Can you talk a little bit about how you see the intersection of your power to ask questions, but also how the work you do illuminates the history that leads us to this moment?
[13:31]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I think that's my goal in journalism. I truly feel like my role is to provide clarity and to help people understand the world around them. I think when we see headlines and we see news clips and things might not make sense like here or there, it's to provide a cohesive narrative around all of the seemingly random events that we have today. And my first show at my, the first show I ever did was called In Context, where we would put the news in context and we would kind of display everything out. So whether or not you think of this, this news event, which you will. But this is what happened here is the, the, the clearest, most condensed, most concise version of this event, tying it to history. Because nothing happens in a vacuum.
[14:23]
Stacey Abrams
Well today. And both of you use really, I think, interesting language. Today, many people, especially those under 30, turn to social media. TikTok, for example, not only for news, but also for community. Paolo, you mentioned the importance of empathy and Joseph, you talked about just putting things in context. And the language that's been used to describe this is that today people value sense making where they gain information and understanding shapes how they process it. And so, Joseph, I'm gonna start with you. How did the community you found in gaming shape your understanding that news could be targeted to you as a young person?
[15:05]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, for sure. So when I was 12 or 13, I played, me and my buddies, we played this game called Maplestory. It's like a 2D side scroller game, but you can play with all your friends and you're all there. It was really fun. We would go and there was an update for the game that was coming out that was like going to fundamentally like reshape the way we were going to play this game. And I remember reading a story about it in this, in Game Informer. And I read this story and these words on the screen were going to affect like the way I spent my days after school. And that kind of like connection between something like this little hobby that I had here and like journalism was very like, in a really weird way it connected the dots. It was like, oh, wow, you can report on these things. These things are knowable. They, they went to developers and spoke to them. There are people making the game and the journalists can talk to them and they can tell me what they said. Like, it was just, it was very surreal and it was, it was like to steal a Jimmy Neutron reference. It was a blame a brain blast moment. And I was like, wow, my world has opened up. So that's kind of like a very fun entry into like journalism for me.
[16:15]
Stacey Abrams
Opala. I'M curious, you've mentioned your parents, your grandparents. What was your first singular moment separate from your family, where you thought about how the news spoke to you and how you use it to speak to other people?
[16:29]
Paolo Ramos
So it takes me back to the very first time that I did a TV appearance in Telemundo, right, Which is the one of the main Spanish language networks in this country. And I mean, I don't even remember when this was. This must have, you know, maybe 2014 is. I remember the very first time I'm in 30 Rock here in New York City. They take me to the makeup room, and the makeup artist essentially says, I'm going to sort of do your makeup the way that De Le Mundo wants you to look on screen. I said, okay. And so I sort of closed my eyes, and within the next, like, 10 minutes, I literally opened my eyes and it was. It was like, honestly, like, looking at a different person. There was like. And I'm someone that, like, I don't. I obviously, you know, don't. Don't wear makeup. I dress. I want to dress, but it was like, you know, I had so much mascara on and, like, and all this lipstick and my. I mean, I look like a different version of myself. And I remember going on air for the first time and feeling so uncomfortable, Right. And what was happening in that moment was that, you know, these. That institution was molding me in the way. In the same way that I grew up watching these sort of Spanish language institutions, which was women had to act and talk and appear a certain way. Men also had to act and talk and appear a certain way. And it was that image that I thought was what I had to strive for if I wanted to be a Latino journalist in the United States. And I told myself, I will never do that again. So if you ever put on MSNBC or De Limundo or Univision today, you will never see me conforming to that image. And so that just made me think, for me, growing up, I didn't have, Yes, I had my family as a reference, but I didn't have the reference of, like, you know, young, queer Latinos on tv. No. Or stories that sort of broke with the stereotypes that I had grown up with around what it meant to be a Latino in this country and what it meant to, you know, love the way that I love. I always go back to, like, that moment because that. That is like the day that I told myself, like, I will. I will tell the news differently, to Joseph's point, like, I will try to explain things differently and try to create like another image of what it means to be a journalist in this space.
[18:41]
Stacey Abrams
Thinking about that for both of you, there's the Jimmy Neutron reference, which is young for me, but old for a lot of people listening. There's the how do you find your space and how do you find your place when no one looks like you or seems to reflect who you are? That seems to be the tension that is the most pertinent for Gen Z and Gen Alpha. They are coming of age in a world where those who are older, millennials, Gen X, like myself, boomers, where we were not always permitted that ability. And they're trying to find community and make sense of the world around them. And journalism is often how you do that. You hear the stories of people around you, what we call the news, and that helps us shape what we think the world is supposed to be. Can you both talk? And I'll start with you, Paola. Can you talk about the potential weaknesses and the strengths of these new ways of finding each other and therefore finding ourselves?
[19:43]
Paolo Ramos
I mean, I think at least when it comes to the Latino audience, I think the challenge is that there's so many unknowns, there's so much uncertainty, and I actually think it's a good thing. I think for so many years, whether it's through media or in politics, I think there's been this, this idea that we knew what Latino voters and the Latino audience was like, right? And I think once again, if I compare sort of my role as a journalist today and what my father's role has been, we're talking to completely different audiences, right? Like for the last 30 plus years, if you wanted to talk to Latinos, you talked to them in Spanish. You centered your stories around immigration, and every so often, perhaps, you know, you put in a little Spanglish word over there. Now we're talking about a Latino electorate and Latino audience where the fastest growing segment within us are third generation Latinos, right? And so even if you look at the numbers, the majority of us are us born, the majority of us are under age 50 years old. The majority of us consume news not in Spanish, but in English. We no longer go into Univision and Telemundo, we go to social media. If you ask me right now, like, what's the best way to reach a young Latino? I don't think there's been enough studies out there, enough data out there, enough intentionality to really understand the way that this, like, you know, the fastest growing segment is trying to consume news. What I do know is that the challenge as a journalist is that I know that I can no longer just do a hit on MSNBC without putting something on TikTok, because I know that I will never reach a young Latino just on NBC. No, I know that if I'm putting content on social media, and, Joseph, you know this more than anyone. The facts that I am trying to tell people will also be countered with the amount of mis and disinformation that is flooding in the same circles and the same WhatsApp circles that a lot of young Latinos are on, because as they're consuming news from me, they're also trying to stay in touch with their families and. Right. So I think there's all these, like, political, cultural dynamics that are happening. And at the same time, no longer are the days where, you know, you got to just sit on your couch at 6:30pm and watch my dad's newscast. That's. That's completely gone.
[21:52]
Stacey Abrams
And Joseph, as I kick it to you, we know that young black men in particular are one of the chief targets of disinformation. We know that much in the way that Paola is describing young Latinos. The same is true for diverse audiences, especially for young black men and young black women. Can you talk a bit about the weaknesses and the strengths and particularly the work that you've been doing around these conversations?
[22:16]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I mean, I think that, to Paolo's point, I think the space is competitive. Right. I think that when you're going on social media, there's a lot of different voices saying a lot of different things. And the best way I have learned how to counteract that is constantly trying to prove. Give the audiences something of value. Right. Not. Not necessarily always just throwing them the red meat that I think that they would want to hear, but actually diving into some analysis that'll make you have your Jimmy Neutron moment where you're like, oh, w. I understand this thing differently now. I think that, like, when people talk about vertical video, I HEAR People say TikTok a lot. And TikTok is, I think, like the one right now, but we are everywhere. Like, TikTok, I think, is the most popular one. But we are everywhere. We're making stuff on Instagram, we're making stuff on YouTube shorts. We are trying to get people where they are, and we don't want. I feel a lot of pride knowing that our videos are just going to come up when you're scrolling and then you'll see it and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is why. This is. This. This is Crazy. And then you don't. I'm not asking you to go to our website and sign up. I'm not asking you to go off platform. We're going to come where you are, speak the language of the platform and try to earn your loyalty with our analysis and our fact based reporting.
[23:37]
Stacey Abrams
So to follow that a little bit more, is there a cheat code that we should use? Who when we're trying to figure out how to engage audiences to get them to consume information, to do that kind of analysis? What's the cheat code that you use that helps, you know, achieve this very complex and often very disparate set of issues and pull them together?
[24:02]
Joseph Ferguson
So what I'm going to say is going to sound reductive without getting too much into like audience strategy. But I think number one is authenticity. I think that like audiences will be able to sniff out if you are not being yourself. Like they can just look in your eyes and tell that's not who you are. And I think they're going to call that out in the comment section. They're going to make memes about how you're fake. Like it is going to be relentless and they're going to see it. And I think number two, which is something just like has been a guiding light for my career is like make stuff that you would want to see on the Internet. I think that as special and unique as everybody is, I think that there's a, we share a lot of commonalities and if you want to see it, someone else is going to want to see it and they're going to share it with their friend who wants to see it. So I think that if as long as you are being authentically yourself and making the stuff that you would want to see, it's the misinformation space is always going to be competitive. Lying is always going to be easier than telling the truth. But I think that when you do this kind of good work and when, and you do it consistently, you earn the credibility from your audience and they're going to take your, your, your word over, you know, Whoever, whoever on TikTok.
[25:10]
Stacey Abrams
Well, you both have audiences that are broad. I mean, yes, you are both younger. Yes, you tend to use mediums that are particularly, I think salient for younger viewers, younger watchers. But you've got a lot of folks, you've got older, you've got people who are coming to you, as you pointed out, Joseph, they're coming to you on YouTube and the Washington Post. So can you talk both of you? And I'll start with you, Joseph. How important is it to you to explore the new ways to engage your audiences given the generational divides? Do you have an audience that you're speaking to and you let everyone else overhear it, or do you think about the differentiation in age and experience for the audience you're talking to?
[25:55]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So when I cut up the audience and I think about who's going to be watching this video, I think I cut it on platform lines, not necessarily age. I think that, like, the platform has a specific language that they speak. Twitch is different than TikTok, is different than YouTube, is different than Discord. And I think that, like, all of these platforms, you can optimize for them. I think it starts with, obviously, great reporting and a good, good solid video base. But then you optimize for the language of that particular platform and maybe you optimize for the UI of that platform because, like, I know that I can't put a graphic here because the cut, because, like, the comment section is going to be right there, so it's not going to do that. So I think that, like, optimizing for the language of the platform is the most important thing. And I think whoever watches it there is going to watch it there because they're there because they like consuming content on that platform. And I'm going to optimize our Washington Post reporting for this platform, and I'll throw in some humor. And I think that is how you make it stick. It starts with great reporting, optimizing for that platform, and just trying to speak their language. You never want to come in there, like, hey, fellow kids, like, because that's, that's, that's not going to work. They're going to see right through it, Go be yourself. But try to, you know, ingratiate yourself into that community.
[27:18]
Stacey Abrams
Paolo, you.
[27:19]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, for me, I think I'm. I'm always conscious of the. I think one of the things that often happens, particularly with, like, the younger Latina audience, is that you start neglecting your roots. No, you start neglecting the, like, the Spanish language audience, the Telemundo, Univisions of the world. And that is something that I've noticed around me at all. And so, so I'm always trying to, like, hop around three spaces. Telemundo, the sort of mainstream cable news world in English and then social media. And I think for the three of those spaces, I try and go into it understanding that I have different missions when I go on Telemundo and I speak Spanish. I know that my audience are gonna be 60 plus year old, mostly Latina women. And I know that I have those three, four minutes to sort of push the conversation. Right. And what I mean by that is, for instance, when I go into a Telemundo, oftentimes you won't hear the word abortion, for instance. It's just an example. And that's because there's a stereotype out there and a myth that older Latina women are scared of that word, which I fundamentally don't believe in. And so I try and sprinkle in language that I think at least in my eyes, will change the conversation, whether I'm talking about abortion and saying things like that explicitly or I'm talking about being a young queer person. So that's sort of my de la Mundo audience high. When I go on msnbc, I try and think of this idea of like, how can I frame conversations around the border? And all these issues that perhaps seem distant and unfamiliar and foreign to someone that's like in the Midwest. And I try and connect the dots so that someone that's hearing about asylum seekers at the border, that is also consumed with the dis and misinformation and the sort of anti immigrant narrative that is also entering a lot of liberal spaces, how can I get that person to humanize someone at the border? And then when I go into social media and a TikTok, at least what's worked for me for sure. I think Joseph, like, yes, obviously you have to be super authentic. But I think the one thing that's worked for me is like breaking things down for young people with facts. Like there's like the best, the best videos that I've done are the ones where I give people the facts. Here's what you're hearing from Trump, here's what you're hearing from the Vice President. Here are the facts. Do with those facts whatever you want. And that's been working well, at least for now. But I think to your point, I think you have to be a little bit more open. At least I am not open to educating myself. What is it that young people want? And also how do I bring them into my world? Bringing them into the dnc, which Joseph does incredibly well, bringing them into my world of reporting. I think that entering your world also works a lot in that space.
[29:55]
Joseph Ferguson
I think just to piggyback off what you said, I think that's so interesting. I think because we're working with video, visuals are going to be key. If you can provide video from a thing, if you can provide. If you can actually touch and hold something tangible. You're not just talking about a concept. You're like, no, it's right behind me. I have this thing in my hand. I think that gives such a visceral feeling for the audience when they can go like, oh, that is. It's there. So I think that's. Yeah, just to piggyback off what you said. I think that was great.
[30:25]
Stacey Abrams
Well, I think that dovetails nicely into this next question, which is we know that the formalized sort of targeted news outlets with their traditional staffing and their standards are disappearing. We've seen this happen over and over again. We know local news is vanishing, including the local newsroom. And instead. And in place of that, we have a lot of do it yourself replacements, where people are trying to fill in the gap or they're trying to exploit the moment where if you look a little professional, you might be able to swindle an audience until believing that you're giving them real news. Can you talk, both of you? And I'll start with you, Paola. What does this evolution of what constitutes journalism mean to you? Does it concern you? Are you excited about it? What do you think about what's happening?
[31:16]
Paolo Ramos
No, I mean, I think what it means for us right now is that you have to be everywhere. No, you have to be present everywhere. You have to be consistent. Because I think at the end of the day, what breaks through the conspiracy theories, what breaks through the myths and disinformation is the trust that you're able to achieve with that audience. And that trust comes with consistency, with your presence everywhere. And so I think that, to me, is still the guy guiding principle, which is still a guiding principle in journalism. Build trust with your audience. That's the same, obviously. Counter with facts always. And to Joseph's point, be authentic. Not at the end of the day, like, if you're. If you're a host name, if you're a reporter, people want to. Want to trust, you know, and, like, hearing you. And so the biggest difference for me is that now I know that I have to be in every single platform. I know that I have to compete with the YouTubers, with the TikTokers. I know that if I'm on MSNBC, maybe you'll get like 500,000 views. If you go on TikTok, maybe you can get a million views. And so that's just. That's always my recommendation. No, it's not enough with one platform.
[32:21]
Stacey Abrams
And Joseph, I mean, as someone who was really on the vanguard of Creating some of the new ways we consume the news. Are you excited about this evolution? Are you concerned about it? What are you thinking about what's happening?
[32:35]
Joseph Ferguson
Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely of two minds because my, one of me and my co host Carmela both came up in local news. She was doing local news in Rochester, I was doing local news in Charlotte and in Atlanta. So I have a very attached role to local news. I think it's important I see how it affects people. You know, when I was in Atlanta, people used to tell me they were, they got the paper every day for 50 years and like it was a real institution there. And I think that one supporting local news and having local newsrooms be very agile and what, what they're doing I think is a hu. Huge role in this. I, I think that local newsrooms getting more funding and being agile in what, what they can and cannot do is great. And then on the influencer side or just on like the Internet side, I guess we, there are people doing great work too. Like I think V who is great. They are doing phenomenal work. And it's really about finding information you can trust. Good verifiable information. I think that the allure of misinformation is that it just feels good and it's like, oh, this is going to scratch and itch in my brain. But good analysis will always be bad information. And I think that when you. The problem that we run into is that it's easier to turn on a camera and lie than it is to do really good reporting and thoroughly fact check things. So I think that how we get out of this is doing lots of really good reporting. And again, that sounds very reductive and it sounds very but like where the people are. I think that if a lot of really good journalists get on TikTok or get on YouTube shorts or Instagram reels and start. Not only that, but something that we've seen a lot of success in is showing our process. Like when you say this investigative Reporter combed through 5,000 pages to find these discrepancies, you show the stacks of papers that they went through and you can kind of like walk them through all the work that went into it. You, they didn't just turn on a camera and have an opinion. They like went through the hard work of researching. And I think that if we can show that process, I think that helps gain trust. And then the analysis where people are watching it is going to create loyal subscribers because they know they're getting valuable information. I hope that wasn't too wordy.
[35:03]
Paolo Ramos
No, no, no. And if I can add something, I think what I wanted to say is, like, and I didn't mean to discredit it before, like, I can't do any authentic reporting on the ground without the help of local journalists. And that is. That is. That is truth at the border in Mexico or in the United States. Right. And I think, you know, that is. That's. That is still the. One of the foundations of, like, good journalism. Like, as someone that is in New York City, you know, that is sort of, like, far away from where things are happening. Like, my number one resources in my number one education continues to be from the local fixers in Mexico, from my local fixers at the border, from my. From my journalists in the States. And so I think I just wanted to make sure that I added that. No, because obviously there's a fixation with social media, and obviously we have to be everywhere, like I said before. But the real facts and the eyes on the ground continue to be the local journalists. And that remains true whether there's three staffers left or 10 staffers left. No. So I just wanted to make sure that I added that.
[36:10]
Stacey Abrams
For both of you. And I'm going to start with you, Joseph, on this one. So young people are the progenitors, and they are experts at consuming social media content. But as I mentioned before, they're not alone. What can other generations learn from young people when it comes to consuming the news? Like, what other skills would you encourage everyone at home to start to cultivate as news consumers in this new landscape?
[36:36]
Joseph Ferguson
Young news consumers are very sophisticated in the sense that they know, like, oh, this person is tied to this person. So that's why they're probably saying this. Like, they're very keenly aware of a bias. And I think just because it comes on a TV or a screen or something, I think they're very attuned and sensitive to words and phrases that sound like they're being planted or sound like, oh, that's not real. Or like they're. They're. They'll spot an AI image faster than someone else will. So I think that, like, what. I think older generations, even, you know, my millennial self over here, I think what we can do better is trying to spot. I'm trying to spot liars. Again, sounds reductive. But trying to spot someone who is being deceptive and having an understanding of the breadth of their coverage. Right. I. I think a lot different court cases that we've had where you saw a narrative Being pushed with a court case or with that was just on. So on social media, someone maybe reading a transcript here and there. And then you have a bad faith actor who has an, a bigger point that they want to make. And they're using this court case to kind of like further that bad faith point and not really dealing with actual, with the actual facts of this particular case, but they say, but they're trying to portray a larger narrative. So I say that all to say, I think that, look, young people do a really good job at looking at someone's track record and applying that to what they're saying now, to seeing if these two match up, if they're acting in bad faith or if they are really a principled person taking a stand.
[38:15]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I go back to, to like Christiana man pores like with the words that she always said no, which is like, be truthful, not neutral. And I say this because I'm noticing at least in the Spanish language media world, this tendency, particularly when there was, when there was a moment that we believe that Donald Trump would walk into the White House, I noticed this tendency to have this, both sides framing of everything. And you can get into a whole, into a whole debate whether that's, that's morally correct, whether as journalists, that's our responsibility to always have both sides. But oftentimes what that has meant in the last year has meant that every time you have this journalist making an analysis in places like Telemundo and Univision, it's not just that they want to counter that with a Republican voice, but that there's not enough vetting when they do that sort of counter argument with. I've been in debates with someone that was in the insurrection with someone that is constantly, constantly spreading mis and disinformation. And so I believe, like, we're in this, like, really interesting crux in like the Spanish language media world where they really fundamentally, like, things are shifting now. There's this tendency to want to shift a little bit to the right and to sort of appear to be more moderate because they think that that's where the audience is going. And so I just, I, you know, I encourage always, like the older producers there, the older anchors to stick to those words of like, be truthful, not neutral. And it keeps sticking to the facts. Just because, like over 50% of Republicans believe in the great replacement theory does not mean that we need to have spokespeople that are pushing those theories on air. And so I think that's this really like, complex area that we're in just because so many people believe in the Big Lie does not mean that they deserve a spot on air. And just getting folks to understand that we have to pull the audience back to the facts, like, and I think that's kind of the hard part of our jobs right now for all of us, that we're not. This isn't media as we know it. Like, we're kind of entering this really unknown territory in media and in politics where after almost a decade of mis and disinformation and after, like, four years of the Big Lie and these sort of fringe theories becoming normalized, like, that's what we're up against. No, like, we're up against sort of bringing back the audience to the facts and to news as we know it, and that no longer exists.
[40:43]
Joseph Ferguson
To your point, when we were at the RNC and the dnc, we did a fact check every day. And seeing the audience's reaction to that has been really, really positive and great. They're like, thank you for fact checking both sides. Thank you for showing that you can do objective reporting. So I think that there is a real. To your point, there is a real hunger for what is real and what is not, and just lay out some of the facts for me. So we've seen a really good reception of that from our audience.
[41:11]
Stacey Abrams
Well, that's actually the perfect way to bring out my last question. So one of the things we're exploring with this podcast is how do we talk about challenging, complex, often problematic issues that we're all facing, but doing it with a perspective that says we can do something about it? And you guys talked about fact checking. You talked about making sure you're holding producers accountable. What are some other strategies that news organizations should employ, not only to reach more diverse audiences who are in search of a new way to news, but to make sure that when they get there, they stay there because they trust what they're getting?
[41:49]
Paolo Ramos
I think we're also trying to figure that out. I think one of my strategies has been it's a debate, right? Like, the debate is, do you give space and air time to people that. That are fundamentally spreading lies? Do you silo them? I think that's the conversations that I have constantly with my producers and executives and what I've tried to do. I've spent the last five years talking to a lot of Latino Trump supporters, many of whom fundamentally disapprove of my being, many of whom are spreading lies and believe in Christian nationalism and storm the insurrection and are, you know, border vigilantes and are The Moms for Liberties of the World. And part of the research has been how can I get to the root of what would fuel someone to believe that they belonged in a crowd of white people in January 6th? Like, what would make a Latino believe so hard in that? And oftentimes the story becomes less about the politics and more about the sort of complex humanity of a Latina. Right. Like, you strip the politics apart and you put the news to a side and it becomes about, like, the story of, like, the racial baggage that we carry to this country from Latin America. Right. And it becomes about the story of being colonized for so many years and about the political traumas. And so that, to me, is part of the reporting that I think I have to do, and it is my duty to do as well. Let's sort of humanize where all of this is coming from, because then I have a small chance, a small chance of having better dialogues and more open dialogues, and then I get to the facts. No. But unless I can get someone to look at me in the eyes and to explain that journey, it's really hard. And so the way that I'm trying to do it is, as President Obama said during the dnc, it is also our duty to talk to those that disagree with us. And if you have that opportunity, then have a conversation with facts. That's sort of how I'm trying to approach it.
[43:51]
Stacey Abrams
Joseph, you got the last word.
[43:53]
Joseph Ferguson
Oh, boy. So I.
[43:55]
Paolo Ramos
It is a hard one.
[43:57]
Joseph Ferguson
Right? Right. I'm gonna try. I think that for me, I think it goes back to clarity and context. I think that. I don't. If someone watches my video, watches a video of mine and comes away with like, I know this bad thing is happening or this, this. This. This big thing is happening, but I don't really know why it's happening, then I think I've. I haven't done my job. I think that, like nameless, faceless bureaucrat a didn't do this. This department head from this org organization, from this part of the government is doing this thing, whether that be local, whether that be national fed, whatever. My goal is to put a name in a face to the things that are happening in your everyday life to the. To the places where you feel government or you don't, or that is. That is a decision that someone has made. So it's really laying out this body made this choice over here to do this and this, this. And I think if you make that in a digestible way, young audiences and just all audiences really want to hear that. So making everything clear and I think spelling it all out, like this person is doing this for this reason and this is why they want to do that, I think is what I've seen as the best way to communicate news and to provide a narrative around why things are happening. Not, they're not just like random events.
[45:20]
Stacey Abrams
Each week. We want to leave the audience with something, an opportunity to make a difference and a way to get involved or just get started on your own in a segment we like to call our toolkit. So just so you both know, here at assembly required, we try to encourage the audience to be curious, to do good and solve problems. And because of Paolo, we're now going to add the truthful, not neutral, with credit to Christiane Amanpour. But as people who understand the scope of journalism, from your parents generation to now, one of the ways I want us to think about doing good is how would you advise aspiring journalists to do good in this ever evolving landscape? Paolo, we'll start with you and then go to Joseph.
[46:03]
Paolo Ramos
Yeah, I mean, this sounds cheesy, but it was also the first lesson, one of the first lessons that was given to me, which was find your voice. And I say this because we're, we're all looking at the same stories, we're all looking at the same facts, we're all looking at this changing landscape. But you, you, the listener, there's only one angle that you can provide. You can always tell the story in a distinct way and you can always find something different. And all of that comes as the culmination of your lived experience and who you are. So I think understanding, like how to find your voice will completely change your trajectory in journalism.
[46:37]
Joseph Ferguson
As someone who their journalism job might not have existed 10 years ago, I think that, like, my perspective on it is it's about the message, not the medium. And find something that you want to talk about. For me, it was news and politics and it's something that I was really passionate about. And don't let anyone. Again, cheesy, but don't let anyone tell you that, like your thing isn't going to be good or your thing isn't popular or your thing won't take off. I think that as long as you are humble enough to take the constructive credit. Criticism. The constructive criticism, and driven enough to keep improving on the thing that you're making, I think you have no choice but. But to succeed. So I think, yeah, be yourself and work really hard.
[47:25]
Stacey Abrams
Fantastic. Well, look, one of the other pieces that we try to tackle here is solving problems and being curious. And back in 2017, PBS NewsHour's Student Reporting Labs turned to its network of teen reporters in urban and rural rural communities around the country to find out what young people really think about fake news, about how it's affected their lives and the role that journalism plays in their communities.
[47:49]
Paolo Ramos
I think it's important that teens don't only get their information from social media, but they get it from a multitude of news sources. So they would get it, they would not only read it from social media, but they would be able to expand their knowledge on the subject by reading from CNN, from Fox, from Huffington Post, etc. Because the best way to un understand a subject is to gain more information on it from different viewpoints.
[48:08]
Stacey Abrams
Well, as our commentator said, it's not only the best way to gain insight, it's also the best way to solve problems. So if you're curious to learn more and you want to solve the problem of misinformation and fake news, we invite you to check out PBS's misinformation overload at srl misinformationoverload.tumblr.com and speaking of curiosity, we want to hear your questions about navigating news sources. Send us an email at assemblyrequired or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. Paolo Ramos, Joseph Ferguson, thank you so much for being here with me. That's all from us today here at Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. We'll talk to you next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a Crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Stephen Roberts and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kirill Paulaviev is our video producer. Our theme song is by Vasilis Futopoulos. Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer and Samantha Slosberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams.