← Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Obama's Library, Trump's UFC 250, and Two Very Different Americas
01:23:13
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- [00:00]
A
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- [03:03]
B
Thank you so much for having me. Hi, Melissa.
- [03:06]
A
Thanks so much for being here. There is so much to talk about today. So are you ready to dive right in?
- [03:11]
B
Oh, yeah, of course.
- [03:12]
A
Okay, let's do it. All right, so first off, last weekend was the grand opening of the Obama Presidential center on the south side of Chicago. And there were all kinds of high profile performers like Bruce Springsteen and Christina Aguilera and John Legend in common. And there are also two very handsome gentlemen, Stephen Colbert and David Letterman, who were wearing, wait for it, tan suits, the audacity of taupe. Am I right? And of course, who could forget our forever flotus, Michelle Obama, reminding everyone that in a world of fake peace prizes, her husband was both a real one and one a real one. So what did you think about this event, Aaron? The joy, the beautiful speeches? Did it make you Miss America of years past?
- [03:59]
B
Yeah, it did. You know, I think that I have, like, a lot of people, some very complicated feelings about the Obama years and the Obama legacy. I kind of look back on it, like, you know, at the scene at the end of the Graduate where he's pounding on the glass and he's like, yeah, he's like, trying to get her attention. But, like, nostalgia for that era for me reminds me, like, I feel like I'm in a, like, soundproof glass case. And I just want to warn myself, I want to, we have to make this more durable. We have to make this last longer. So I think that, you know, and in Obama's speech, he said that this wasn't about, like, getting lost in nostalgia and like people being high on their own supply. It was more about connecting with the very real truth, which is that we were very recently in a much better place that reflected a much better American character. And so, you know, I kind of bristle at overdosing on nostalgia because I think that can be really dangerous. But I also think that viewing the center and the dedication as a reminder that there are a lot of people that really love America and hope for the best for this country rather than a way for us to kind of wash away reality and put our heads in the sand, that, to me, was like my positive takeaway. What were yours, Melissa?
- [05:22]
A
Well, so I loved the way the Obama's reminded everyone that there are many different ways that one can be a patriot. You know, sometimes you can paint on your beard and get in a cage and fight at the White House, and maybe that's patriotism, but there are other brands of patriotism, and we shouldn't cede the ground of being patriots as willingly as perhaps we have done over the last 10 years. You know, we are Americans, too. We love this country, too. We just want something different for it, and that's okay, and that's all right to be so. I thought it was really lovely. You know, I am a little nostalgic for it because it's been a really shitty 10 years. I am not going to lie. Like, this hasn't been great. And it was nice to see a moment, a glimpse of a moment where people were more hopeful that perhaps we could be better. Mm.
- [06:14]
B
It is nice to remember the fact that I was at Grant park the night of the election victory in 2008. I lived in Chicago. So, like, also, I have a lot of nostalgia around Chicago and specifically the south side. My first year in Chicago, I lived in, like, Hyde park, the borderline between Hyde park and Kenwood. And so I have a. There's just so much. There's so much feeling around, like, the city and being young and what everybody was believed in. And I remember that night in Grant park, and it was. So usually I also tend to get, like, cringy about things. Like, if something seems too earnest or too sincere, like, I kind of pull back. But at Grant park, the night of the victory in 2008, the feeling was so authentically earnest and happy in a way that it was impossible to label as in any way cringe or, like, contrived. It was this authentic moment of connection and community that I. I think that in the Trump era, we lose because there's so much, like, aggressive symbology and people wearing their identities on their sleeve. And if you don't agree with me, fuck you. You know, there's like, this kind of attitude. But during the Obama era, I didn't. It wasn't like that, and it doesn't need to be like that.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah. I think some of that nostalgia may explain why we have heard so often in the last 10 years these questions, you know, where is Barack Obama? Why doesn't Barack Obama say more, do more you. Why doesn't he have a more political presence in this moment? And I'm of two minds about that. I think it would be great if he did say more. But I'm also a bit like the 13th amendment, in that I want to normalize black people not doing unpaid labor. So I'm okay with him kind of taking a backseat. But do you think it's fair for people to want him to say more, to do more, to be more present in this political moment? What do we expect of past presidents when we are in a current political moment that isn't really about them, but obviously has repercussions for their legacies?
- [08:24]
B
Yeah, I'm trying to kind of rack my brain and think of times that past presidents have stepped in and. And they haven't really. I don't remember, like, Bill Clinton. People being like Bill Clinton. Where are you? Save us from this, like, post 911 psychosis that we're in under George W. Bush. Like, what are we doing? Where is Bill Clinton? I think that you are absolutely right to make the. That, you know, they're not asking this of the white former presidents. You know, they're not asking this of the presidents that aren't.
- [08:51]
A
And there are a lot of white former presidents you could ask to step up.
- [08:54]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. He was so good at what he did when he. When it was his turn to do it. Like, being a communicator, being a figurehead, being a source of, like, calm and hope. I don't remember him ever entering a situation and being. Even though I didn't agree with everything that he did politically, I didn't ever see him enter a situation and think, oh, God, what's he gonna do? Oh, God, is he gonna mess this up? But, you know, he was a steadying hand. And I think that people are nostalgic for a steadying hand because most other presidents were not followed by Donald Trump. You know what I mean? Like, they're nostalgic for him because the pendulum has swung so far in the opposite direction that we feel unsafe. And people want the last time they felt safe to be around and reminding them that they can feel safe again. But I do think that it is unfair. He's one person. He's already given a lot more than almost every other American who has not served or been an elected official. You know, he's given a lot. So I think asking for more and demanding more is a little tacky.
- [09:58]
A
I'm with that. Classy with a K, if you will. Let's avoid that. So there's such a contrast, as you suggest, between the current president and President Obama. And I think that contrast really showed up this weekend with the opening of the Presidential center, because who couldn't help but compare the opening, the Star studded opening of this presidential center with what happened just a few weeks ago. America's 250th birthday celebration sponsored by Donald Trump, which weirdly did not occur on the 4th of July, America's actual factual birthday, but instead occurred on the 80th birthday of Donald Trump. Now, I'm not going to say that the Trump event wasn't well attended. It drew a fair number of people. But it should be noted that many of the scheduled performers ultimately backed out. That did not happen at the Obama event. Are there other contrasts that we might draw between the tone and tenor of these two events that happened in such close proximity to each other?
- [10:59]
B
Yeah, and I think that the difference in tone and tenor is what gives me a little bit of anxiety or is my route into criticism of the Obama event. Because Donald Trump has proven over and over again that he doesn't really believe in. If you follow him, if you do what he says, if you demonstrate loyalty, then the rules don't apply to you. No rules apply to you, but the rules definitely apply to everybody else. Really, really hard, sometimes unjustly so. So Donald Trump is somebody who, whenever he speaks, just flouts norms, flouts his responsibilities and flouts the rules, his obligations, whatever. And Obama and Michelle and the. The whole dedication of the Presidential center was all about like, no, we. Where, like, the rules can bring us to a good place. We can all support each other. But it made me think about if every single person on the Democratic side of the aisle or every single person with a microphone, the progressives are not trying to quiet down, is saying, like, no, no, no. Follow the rules. Follow the rules. Follow the rules. And the other side is like, yeah, fuck the rules. Like, we don't care about. We don't have to follow the rules at all. It brought to attention the fact that Democrats need to, if they want to survive or if they want to win more elections, they need to figure out a way to coexist with people that fight a little bit dirtier. Like, not that not everybody needs to fight dirty, but we need to coexist with people who are willing to.
- [12:27]
A
Today's episode of Assembly Required is sponsored by Strawberry Me. You know when your career looks fine on paper, but something still feels off, maybe you're stuck, maybe you're burned out, maybe you're ready for a bigger move. Or maybe you just want some clarity on what's next. That's where today's sponsor, Strawberry Me, comes in. Strawberry Me matches you with a real career coach, carefully selected based on your goals. Personality and professional background. These aren't random Internet experts. Coaches on the Strawberry me platform average 16 years of experience across 900 plus companies and 37 industries, and most have been leaders, founders or executives themselves. Here's what I like about Strawberry Me. It's not just one conversation. You meet one on one over video. You build a personalized plan together and then stay connected between sessions through messaging. When real life challenges come up, most people hit a meaningful milestone within four to six sessions, whether that's landing a new role, getting unstuck, building confidence, or just finally taking action on something that you've been putting off for years. Visit Strawberry Me and start with a coaching trial today. Tell them that it was the Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams podcast that sent you and get 50% off your first session. Assembly required is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. As America approaches its 250th anniversary, we're having an important conversation about who we are and who gets included in that vision. Because the United States began as a rejection of monarchy and divine rule, the founders created a secular constitution that was designed to protect freedom of conscience and ensure that government belongs to the people. That framework made expanding rights and representation possible over time, but progress is never guaranteed. Today, we're seeing renewed efforts to blur the line between religion and government in ways that can limit freedom and exclude communities from full participation in public life. The Freedom From Religious foundation is working to protect the First Amendment because it protects everyone equally, regardless of belief, as we move toward America250 this is about more than commemorating history. If protecting pluralism in our democracy matters to you, learn more at ffrf us/stacy or text Stacy's first name s t a c e y to 511511 this is about shaping a future where freedom continues to expand. Go to FFRF US/STACY or text Stacy's first name S T A C E Y to 511-511 Remember Stacy to 511511 well, to recognize that people are not necessarily playing above board, this came home to me with, you know, I think what is the sort of standout moment from the White House events? And this was of course the clip of Josh Hokut calling Michelle Obama a man. Right? So let's roll this clip just to refresh everyone. And lastly, Michelle Obama is a man. Am I right, America? So Aaron, to be very fair, UFC boss Dana White condemned these comments. Other people condemn the comments, although I don't believe the president has yet come out to condemn these comments. But it does make me wonder. We're contrasting the two presidencies, but they're obviously still contrasting the two presidencies. And, you know, it just. One has to ask the question, why is MAGA so obsessed with the Obamas and especially obsessed with Mrs. Obama, someone who never held elective office and literally spent her eight years trying to be a good mom, trying to make the White House beautiful and trying to get American kids to stop eating crap?
- [16:37]
B
Well, I think that they are a ideology of grievance, and the root of their grievances. I mean, as you know, the root of their grievance is an obsession with a loss of hierarchical privilege. So the whole, like, kernel at the center, the little, like, grain of sand at the center, is like, being enraged that a black family was elevated over them 100%.
- [17:02]
A
Like, the underlying threat is like, why aren't you folding my clothes?
- [17:06]
B
Mm, yeah. Like, who do you think you are? You think you're better than me? You're not better than me? And it's like, well, actually, well, they are. They're better than me. Like, you know, that's fine. Some people are better than me. Some people are like. But I think that. That in order to keep the MAGA flame burning, they need to feed the grievance furnace. And reminding people over and over again, remember when that black guy was the president? Remember when his wife was celebrated as this fashion icon and people, like, really fawned over her? And remember how she became kind of America's mom? Isn't that offensive to you? Isn't it offensive to the status that you think is your birthright, that has been deprived by them? And I think that in order, that's necessary for them to stay mad, because if they forget about. They're like, wait, why are we. Why are we mad again? What's happening? Isn't life a little bit worse? Oh, no, no, no, wait. Our loss of status. That happened in 2008.
- [18:01]
A
Well, and I think that's why President Trump is so insistent on sowing these petty grievances. I mean, it's not just Josh Hokut. I mean, the president also engages in these conspiracy theories. Like, every time someone asks him about something that is not going well right now, during his presidency, whether it's the price of gas or the price of housing or the price of everything, which is just too damn high, he constantly drifts back into, well, the 2020 election was rigged. Oh, there was Sleepy Joe Bide or Crooked Hillary. If this movement is genuinely about making America great again, why aren't you focused on the future and doing that. Why are you so wedded to relitigating this past that was barely five years ago?
- [18:50]
B
Yeah, he wants to convince his followers that he can just hit the control alt, delete button and reboot, and then suddenly it'll be a version of the 1950s that only ever existed in advertising, that never really existed for real. Real, real.
- [19:05]
A
The Don Draper America.
- [19:06]
B
Yeah, and those real. But in, I think Mad Men, to be fair, is a little bit more of an authentic representation of what life was like. But, you know, also, like, all the housewives were on Quaaludes, man. Like, if we're gonna bring the. Like, there's all of these factors that we're just. That we're just deciding to erase in, like, rebuilding a nostalgia. So I think that he's selling this idea that we can undo all of it. We can undo all the things that made people that follow MAGA upset. And by dangling that carrot, it distracts from the fact that really what he's doing is filling his own pockets, is serving his donors and participating in just, like, unfathomable amounts of grift and scams and. Except he's using, like, America as his personal debit card now instead of. So I think it's like a two prong thing. Like, on one hand. Hey, take a look at this. Look at this, look at this. These uppity people, these black people who think they're better than us women who left the house. Hey, look at the women. They left the house. Meanwhile, he's, like, stuffing his pockets full of bills from the cash register. So I think the two things have to coexist in order for him to be able to carry on as he's carrying on. But I don't know how effective the trick is over and over again, because I think there are people peeling off. Are you noticing that?
- [20:24]
A
Also, we should talk about that. His ratings are really in the toilet right now. So compared to past presidents, his approval ratings are at historic lows for presidents at this point in a presidency. So a New York Times Santa poll showed the president at a 37% approval rating, which is. Yikes. But the really interesting part is that the polling shows that Trump is losing support among his core base. So that's rural Americans, the white working class, Christian evangelicals. What does that say about the national mood right now? I mean, we're supposed to be celebrating America's big birthday. People don't seem to be in a very celebratory mood. How does this project to the Republican Party, which has to go forward without this president as its figurehead.
- [21:16]
B
Mm. 37% still seems pretty high to me, considering how many people strongly disagree that we are doing well. It's more than a third who are like, yeah, this is great. This is fine. And I think that the reason that the mood, the vibes are so bad in this country right now is think of America is like a giant road trip, right? We're all in the car together. We're all going. Have you ever been on a road trip with two other people and one of them just sucks? One of them is just terrible, and you just like, they don't want to do anything that anybody else wants to do? Every night they're going out. They're, like, keeping different hours than you. It's like, what is up with this person? I feel like having one of the three people in the road trip to continue to torture the metaphor that is so out of step with what the other two want to do is just going to create this feeling of, like, extreme disunity. And I don't mean to be trite, because it is, like, it does feel existential for this country. We can't really move forward if we have two thirds wanting to do this one thing and one third wanting to do something that is basically the opposite. It feels like untenable. And going back to what we were saying about the Obama event and how it was hopeful, I think that it was a counterargument to the idea that it's untenable. Like, we weren't always agreeing, but we were kind of moving in the same direction. We were compromising somewhat. We weren't doing what everybody wanted to do, but at least we weren't, like, at each other's throats. And I think that that's a good thing to be reminded of.
- [22:47]
A
No, we weren't on the same page all the time, but we were all reading the same book. Cause we all could read. And that was a big start. That was a start. And maybe we just don't have that right now, which, again, I think is a dangerous place to be, as you say, and not a particularly hopeful place to be at a moment where we're celebrating the 250th anniversary of this country. I mean, it doesn't jibe with the birthday vibes.
- [23:18]
B
Right. It's also happening in the context of, like, all of these Supreme Court opinions coming out. You know, we're at the time of the year when it's really top of mind just how. How cooked we are chat. You know, it's very much like, oh, the courts have been captured. And we get daily reminders of the fact.
- [23:35]
A
But not all the courts have been captured. So I will again, we're gonna celebrate something here. Some of the federal courts have really stepped up. The lower federal courts have stepped up to try and impose constitutional limits on this president to enforce those limits. So federal courts have ordered that the President's name be forcibly jackhammered from the Kennedy Center's facade. Congress is also beginning to awaken. They're getting off the couch. They've warned the President that he cannot install his Arc de Triomphe without congressional approval. And the algae is also fighting back. So the reflecting pool is literally awash in algae. Mother Nature is saying, no, we're not going to do this.
- [24:21]
B
It is so funny. It is such a metaphor. If it were written into a script, what's going on with the. I would be like, come on, guys, you need to dial this back. Like, Donald Trump has always been somebody who is in almost like, ardent denial of nature. Like, he loves golfing, which is the least natural thing, like lawns, monoculture, all the pesticides and fertilizer. So unnatural. It is an unnatural thing to be doing. The way that he looks is completely unnatural. His hair is fake, his wives are fake. He perpetuates this unnatural standard of beauty that can only be obtained through excessive mutilation and plastic surgery meant to display
- [24:59]
A
a compliance to a species of gender affirming care.
- [25:02]
B
Exactly, exactly. But it's a politically motivated signifier that people are deciding to wear. They're making themselves look a certain way to demonstrate their loyalty. So I think that, like the reflecting pool, right, there's natural laws governing how water works, right? How paint works, how plants grow.
- [25:23]
A
You gotta read. You gotta read to know those rules. You gotta know those.
- [25:26]
B
But it's, it's, it's really a testament to the fact that you can only live in. And in the meantime, Donald. Donald Trump's health is deteriorating. If you, if you watch him talk now, his energy level compared to even like 2020, it is shocking how much more sleepy and out of it he sounds.
- [25:45]
A
He's 80, Aaron. I mean, what are we expecting? He's 80.
- [25:49]
B
He's 80. Well, you know, there's. How old's Jane Fonda? She's older than him.
- [25:54]
A
Okay, so, I mean, Jane Fonda is like, she is superhuman. But I mean, like this guy. Yes, the man has an edifice complex. Mother Nature is against it, but he is 80 years old. He says he's fine. He says that he's never been healthier, unfortunately, unlike most healthy people, he consults with 22 medical specialists, which seems like a lot if you were so healthy. It seems like a perfectly normal amount for someone who is 80. But this white House and this president continues to press the narrative that he is young, he is vigorous. There is nothing to see here, despite the fact that everyone can see the visible bruising on his hand. Why are they doing this? I'm like, why can't we just admit he's old and aging? He is in the last term, he is going to serve constitutionally, and we're basically in a kind of lame duck presidency. Why can't they give up the ghost?
- [26:51]
B
Because living as though the illusion is going to become reality has always served him well. He has always just been like, just stated things and they become real.
- [27:01]
A
And it's, I'm a billionaire.
- [27:03]
B
Right, Exactly. And he wasn't.
- [27:04]
A
The Apprentice is a great show.
- [27:06]
B
Yeah, exactly. I'm a good boss. I am a great husband. I'm a great husband. I'm a great dad. I'm a good leader. I know what's going on in Washington. I know how to fix things. I'm a good businessman. Like, all of these things are things that were fake when he started saying them and only became real because he just insisted on his version of reality. But the reflecting pool, his health deteriorating, are just both things. Visual representations of the fact that you cannot outrun nature. You can for a period of time, but, like, there is a natural cycle in the world and there's a natural cycle in politics as well, where things don't stay the same. Everything is temporary. There is a cyclical nature to the way that countries function. There's a way that people operate. There's things that people believe politically, I think just. And I don't want to be too like, English 101 here, but it does feel like the pool, the reflecting pool, is the embodiment of all of these things that are eventually gonna fell. The president. Hubris, skirting of rules, a rush to get things done, an obsession with things looking right. Like you said, edifice complex. That's so clever. And then what do we have now? We've got a team of algae kicking the president's ass and a baby duck. Unfortunately.
- [28:30]
A
This podcast is brought to you by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Everyone deserves access to high quality, affordable health care, no matter what. That's why millions of people rely on Planned Parenthood health centers for services like cancer screenings, wellness exams, birth control, STI tests, and more. In fact, one in three women in the United States have been to Planned Parenthood for care. So it kind of blows my mind that lawmakers are trying to permanently shut down Planned Parenthood. They already passed a law that blocks patients who use Medicaid from getting the affordable preventative care they need, and now they want to make that law permanent. Nobody benefits when people are getting fewer exams, paying more for care, or just skipping the healthcare that they need. And we know that that's happening. Planned Parenthood health centers have reported that fewer patients are getting basic care like breast exams and STI tests since the Trump administration and their backers defunded Planned Parenthood. Patients shouldn't have to suffer because of their laws. Our communities deserve better to get involved. Text update to 22422 that's update to 22422. Assembly required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Co. I am trying to be healthier with my diet. That means I'm trying to get more, more fresh fish into my diet. And you know what helps? I'll tell you. Wild Alaskan Company Wild Alaskan offers the best way to get wild caught high quality seafood delivered right to your door on your schedule. Each Wild Alaskan box comes with individually portioned filets that are vacuum sealed, easy to prep, and great for any meal, no matter how quick or how elevated. All of their fish is quick frozen fresh from Alaskan waters, which helps lock in its freshness, flavor, texture and key nutrients like omega 3s. This is fish you can trust with no GMOs, antibiotics or other additives. And every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and Alaskan fishermen whose history is literally tied to the region and the practice of fishing. I love Wild Alaskan's Pacific Halibut. I just pull one of these packets out of my freezer, let it thaw, pop it in some parchment paper, throw some oil or butter or herbs or whatever, pop it in the oven and boom, it's done. And again, if you listen to strict scrutiny, you know I hate cooking. This makes it so easy. So if you care about getting fresh, delicious seafood right to your door, when you want it, when you need it, and without a lot of prep, fuss or mess, this is for you. And Wild Alaskan company is so confident that their fish is the best, they even offer a 100% satisfaction and money back guarantee. So you can try your first box risk free. Go to wildalaskan.comassembly for $35 off your first order of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.comassembly For $35 off your first order. Thanks to wild alaskan company for sponsoring this episode of Assembly Required. You know what else is kicking the President's ass? Iran.
- [31:46]
B
Oh, it is? Yeah.
- [31:48]
A
Yeah. So the war with Iran, I think we can all say, has been an undeniable failure. Even the MAGA faithful and the neocons are venting their frustrations about the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad deal that gives Iran $300 billion for rebuilding, gives them control of the Strait of Hormuz, which they now know they can close at any time and basically strangle the world. And it all ends with the United States slinking home in retreat. This seems to me a colossal failure. I wonder how well it will resonate with the American public after the summer has come and gone. I mean, like, we just have the shortest attention spans. Even though this war was so unpopular, are people going to care about how disastrously it was conducted and how disastrously it ended by the time the midterms roll around?
- [32:47]
B
That's a good question. I think that while people have a short memory, the supply chain does not have a short memory. And there are things that are going to remind people on a daily basis for a while the trailing nature of the disaster, because it's not immediately going to go back to normal, there are going to be effects that linger for a while. Specifically, when it comes to, I mean, I don't know what the cost of food is going to be like. We're having a super El Nino coming through. How is that going to affect crops? You know, there's this Reddit community that I sometimes lurk at called, like, Prepper intel. And every week they have a. Wow, Aaron. I know, I'm deep. I'm deep. Melissa.
- [33:26]
A
Okay, how many gold bars do you have on hand?
- [33:29]
B
I've got zero gold bars, but I am aware that I should have gold bars. I feel bad about not having gold bars. That's the level I'm at right now.
- [33:35]
A
Your daughter?
- [33:36]
B
Yes. Yeah. But every week they publish a produce report that's like, here's the different crops that are having some shortages. You're gonna see price increases. If you're planning on cooking with this, you might wanna find an alternative. And it's really interesting to see that there are. The produce report usually, like, predates when shortages are gonna happen for a few weeks. And I think about that in terms of, like, other shortages that will have been prompted and exacerbated by the Strait of Hormuz being closed. Just like some manufacturing that happens in China, we don't know exactly what, or in other parts of Asia, we don't know exactly what. But you know, fuel is going to keep costing a lot of money. I think the longer we, we were there for long enough that the effects are just not, it's not just going to bounce back. Also, all of Europe is mad at us. It's not, it could go away. But as long as there are reminders, I think that people aren't going to forget.
- [34:29]
A
So let's talk about the primaries leading up to the midterms. There's been a lot of primary action. There will be a major primary in New York this week. Let's talk about Georgia, though, because that one to me really stood out. Trump's hand picked candidates swept three Republican Senate primaries in Alabama, Oklahoma and Georgia. Boo his. But in Georgia, Trump's preferred gubernatorial candidate, Lieutenant Governor Burt Jones, lost the Republican primary runoff to Rick Jackson. So Rick Jackson will face off against Keisha Lance Bottoms. Meanwhile, Representative Mike Collins came out on top in his Senate primary and he is going to be facing off against Senator John Ossoff in November. Let's start with the scary ones. Should we be alarmed that Trump's hand picked candidates are sweeping the south or is, is there a silver lining here?
- [35:27]
B
Yes, and yes, I think that we should be alarmed that he has so much power over Republican primary voters still. But I also think that the silver lining is that those people that are willing to identify as Republicans and that are so riled up about voting that they're voting in primaries is a shrinking number. And so they are picking people that are a little bit more extreme. I also want to say that the silver lining is, I think that this is kind of like a game of Red Rover, Red Rover sense. It's way easier for Trump to focus on one race or just a handful of races at a time, but when it's like Election Day and all of the races are happening at the same time, does he have the resources just in terms of how much time and attention he has to devote to getting people across the actual finish line? And I don't think that there's evidence to support that. I think that there's evidence to support that. He can really be like, I'm focusing on Indiana, like how he felled, I think five sitting members of the state House in Indiana, he can do that, but I don't think he can do it on a large scale. So I think it's scary. But also I'm not worried that he can repeat the trick in the general
- [36:39]
A
like being able to scale it for the general election.
- [36:41]
B
Exactly. Very good Bay Area word scalability.
- [36:45]
A
You know me well. So given that he can't be everywhere at once, are there places that we should be paying specific attention to? Are there under the radar players who could have an outsized impact on the future of both the Democratic and Republican parties as we lean into the midterms?
- [37:04]
B
I mean, if I knew the answer to those questions, I would not be hosting a podcast. I would be paid a lot more money to run a constitution. I think that's. This is gonna sound frustratingly vague, but I think that when the national attention turns to, like, hyperlocal races, especially in states with a lot of pride who have maybe been starting to very tentatively be purple a little bit, I think that it's really best for the national media to kind of stay back a little bit.
- [37:37]
A
Let it cook.
- [37:38]
B
Let it cook. Exactly. Let the Texans take care of Texas. I think anything we can do behind the scenes as, like, national media figures, or if you're from out Texas or you're a person who used to live in Texas, I think it's good you can be involved by, like, donating money. But I don't think we need, like, giant Obama center launch type events, being like, everyone vote for James Talarico. I think that we really need to let the states feel empowered by the fact that they get to choose somebody who represents them instead of feeling as though the national media is deciding who best represents them. I think that that causes a lot of, like, bristling. Now, I'm from Wisconsin. I know Wisconsin's third is. Is one that has swung from. That's in western Wisconsin, slightly south of where I grew up. It is a part of the state that voted for Obama pretty consistently and strongly and then swung to Trump in 2016 and has been progressively more and more Trumpy since. But Wisconsin's third, I think is interesting because polling shows that that's like a gettable flip. Now. Like, if you would have asked me if I have thought that, again, it's like, right. Right near where I grew up. If you would have asked me four years ago if I thought that western Wisconsin would flip, I would have been like, hell no. But there are pollsters that now are like, this actually could work because people are so disillusioned and upset. And I think it's stories of places where people are really experiencing a lot of Trump blowback, and it's not deniable. They cannot deny the fact that it costs more to run their farm. I think those Places are going to be good targets. Iowa right now is in a full on revolt basically against Trump. That's a place where Trump's hand picked people didn't take it over the finish line in the primaries. So I think that places where the pain is real and it's happening to real people and letting those real people feel empowered to make decisions about who represents them, I think is the move. I know that's vague. I'm sorry, Melissa.
- [39:30]
A
No, no, it's actually, it's a great answer. All politics is local. And I think you're exactly right that allowing local politics to sort of govern how the national response looks is an important point. Is it just about a response to discontent with Trump or are there actually rising stars in those places who have captured the local imagination in the way that Barack Obama captured the nation's attention and energy back in 2008? I mean, is it just about grievance over Trump or is there something more energizing? That's.
- [40:11]
B
I think there has to be like a Neapolitan ice cream of grievance, hope and prejudice.
- [40:18]
A
I don't know that everyone knows what that is. I love Neapolitan ice cream.
- [40:22]
B
Is that your favorite kind?
- [40:23]
A
I love it too. I can't make up my mind. So I love striped ice cream. Yeah, it's perfect.
- [40:28]
B
It's like ice cream tapas. You get like a few bites of each different flavor. Yes, it's great.
- [40:32]
A
Spumoni is a more global idea. Spumoni ice cream is the same kind of idea.
- [40:37]
B
Yes. No, I completely agree if you're not. But also to like, recognize the fact that like, grievance, hope and pragmatism need to work together in order to get people across the finish line. I know James Talarico is somebody that's inspired a lot of people. His communication style, especially up against Ken Paxton, is something that's really compelling. The fact that he doesn't.
- [40:57]
A
Well, it helps not to have a wife who is biblically divorcing you.
- [41:00]
B
Yes. Yeah. Talarico does not have like a CVS receipt worth of like ethical concerns like Paxton does. And, and Talarico is a lot more. He's got a lot more Riz than Paxton does. Who, like. I watched his victory night speech after the Republican primary and I was like, how is this. Who saw Paxton and was like, you should be talking to people. You should be on camera talking to people. I don't know, but I think the Talarico is the same people who said
- [41:27]
A
you should be the state's chief Law enforcement officer.
- [41:30]
B
Yeah, exactly. Those same people. Exactly. And those people did, like previously say that John Cornyn should be the state's chief law enforcement officer. So. So you know that things can change quickly, I guess, in Texas politics. No, I think the Talarico example I bring up because it's a really good perfect storm for Democrats. It is a red. Texas is a red state. Right. But there's a lot of discontent in Texas. And Paxton sort of represents this swampy right wing grift that people are a little bit annoyed by. And so somebody that presents the exact opposite gives people an alternative, like a very. It's like a clear alternative. They want something that isn't Paxton. And Telorico presents hopeful messaging.
- [42:14]
A
So I think Jon Ossoff also has some of that Talarico esque riz right now. I mean, he certainly has an amazing head of hair. I mean, oh, my God, he was
- [42:25]
B
in the office and I was like, I get it, I get it. Like, there's some politicians that you see and you're like, oh, you really. But like, in person, they just have a gravitas. And it was just like, oh, yes, this is a person that has a ton of charisma and gravitas and sort of radiates like how a celebrity radiates. And I think that that's a good example too, of somebody who can actually overcome what appears to be the uphill battle in front of them by engaging with people that maybe didn't vote for them before and being welcoming like you can. I don't think that Ossif. Ossif has just a little bit of that newsome edginess to him.
- [43:08]
A
Gavin with the good hair, yes, he's
- [43:12]
B
got a little prickliness, but I think he deploys it very strategically for the audience that he's speaking to. Like here in California, we want Gavin to come out and be like, you know, at the very beginning of that Tupac song where he's dissing Biggie, you know, we want Gavin to come out because.
- [43:26]
A
Because there's a huge nothing but Diss tracks either.
- [43:29]
B
Exactly. 100% diss tracks. But I think in Georgia, you have to be a little bit more aware of the fact that some people are angry, some people wanna feel welcomed. And Ossoff is walking that line pretty well.
- [43:40]
A
Yeah, you gotta offer them a mint julep first. I believe it. Let's stay on Georgia for a couple more beats. I wanna point out that Georgia lawmakers did something that to me was rather un unexpected. So they announced that the state would not be redrawing its congressional maps, despite the governor, Brian Kemp, calling a special legislative session to do so. And just, just for context, listeners, the backstory is that at the beginning of the year, recognizing that the GOP was likely to lose seats in the House, and when you lose seats to the other party, maybe you open yourself up to impeachment. Who wants that? Well, President Trump doesn't want that, and he urged red states to engage in some office off cycle redistricting. And I say off cycle because it's typically the case that congressional redistricting occurs after the decennial census and the next census would be in 2030. So we're not supposed to do this again until 2030. But obviously no one in the GOP is going to say no to this president, or at least they didn't. And Texas began this whole redistricting fight. Then in April, the United States Supreme Court announced its decision in Louisiana versus Calais, effectively nullifying Section 2 of the Voting Rights act and allowing states to draw congressional districts in order to consolidate partisan advantage, even if doing so would dilute the political power of racial minorities. In the wake of that decision, Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, and Tennessee, all former members of the Confederacy, rushed to redraw their congressional maps. And in some cases, they did this even though primary voting was already underway in the state. Georgia was obviously set to jump into the fray and do this as well with this special legislative session. But lo and behold, civil rights groups staged massive protests both in the Capitol and around the state. And barely an hour into that special legislative session, Republican lawmakers came out, stood under the Capitol dome, and announced that redistricting was off, at least for now. Now, Erin, what do you make of these developments? What do you make of this political mobilization in the face of these efforts to disenfranchise minority voters? And what does this tell us about how we can show up going into the midterms?
- [46:00]
B
I think that in Georgia specifically, it emphasized what I brought up before, which is that I think that there is value in state and local politics to demonstrate to your constituencies that you are serving them and you're not serving Washington. And so it was a politically not stupid move for Republicans in Georgia to acknowledge the fact that the order was coming down from the top and they were actually going to be responding to the people of Georgia rather than to the President of the United States. I think it also is worth mentioning that Marjorie Taylor Greene is very popular in Georgia. She's not running for reelection, but she's very popular in Georgia, and she's had Some pretty significant grievances with Trump. She's part of the America First, America Only movement, which sounds like, okay, yeah, that's totally anodyne, but I feel like it's very, very scary, and we should be a little bit more scared of it.
- [46:50]
A
Charles Lindbergh did it better, but, yeah,
- [46:52]
B
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. And Tucker Carlson is kind of on that. There's an increasing drumbeat in conservative circles that is very skeptical of. And I think some of it might be strategic because he's not gonna be around forever, but some of it might be based on some, like, real moral qualms with the way that Trump is moving and the way that MAGA is moving. So I think that politically in Georgia, given the fact that, you know, it's the state of Marjorie Taylor Greene, there was a lot of. It's. It's a purple state. There was a lot of pushback. Republicans didn't have that much to gain by being like, we're actually just gonna listen to the president and we're not going to respond to what's happening here in Georgia. So that's my read on this situation. I don't know if it's a little cynical. No.
- [47:34]
A
I mean, I love cynicism, so you will always have a home here with me. I also think, though, that there is, I think, something optimistic to be gleaned from the moment. Just all of these civil rights groups showing up, banding together, basically saying, we will not go gently into that good night. Your goal here is to disenfranchise us. No, we're not doing that. People didn't die for the right to vote for us, to just allow you to walk all over us. And I think there is a message in that going forward for all of us. Like, we do not have to acquiesce to this. We can show up, we can complain, we can protest. We may not always win, but we don't have to make it easy.
- [48:15]
B
I completely agree, and I think it echoes what we saw in Minneapolis St. Paul earlier this year, which is that the overreach of MAGA activated people in a way that cannot be taken back. And those people will continue to be activated for maybe the rest of their lives. Like, my dad, who is in his 70s, was driving two hours to Minneapolis to go to various protests. He was so. He's never been a protester. He's always been a blue voter, never been a protester. But him and his friends would do it. They were like old guys, old ladies, people that have never been to protest in their lives. And I think that in a place like Georgia, where protesting is more of a regular occurrence, especially in defense of civil rights, I think that it's important to recognize that protest does work. Annoying people so much and be like, we're going to continue to be annoying until you change this.
- [49:08]
A
Teenagers all over the world have been practicing this for years.
- [49:11]
B
Oh my God. We all have had practice doing this. We can all be annoying.
- [49:15]
A
Keep going.
- [49:16]
B
But I think that it's also important to note that the change in Minneapolis I think is going to be a generations long change, politically speaking, and that it doesn't really bode well for the survival of a MAGA party in a purple state to wake that up or to continually wake it up even more than it's already awoken.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think the more you make it hard for them, just they have to give up some of it, at least some of the time. It's too wearying, I think. And I think this is the lesson too, in the retribution campaign. So the president has been intent on persecuting, prosecuting his political enemies. Gavin with the good hair. California Governor Gavin Newsom is the latest in a lineup of political adversaries who has come into the Trump crosshairs. It was announced that the DOJ is investigating both Governor Newsom and possibly also his wife. The first partner, Jennifer Siebel Newsom, related to a nonprofit that she started. Have any of these investigations amounted to anything beyond diverting DOJ resources from actual law enforcement to these petty grievances and score settling? Do they ever work out?
- [50:40]
B
No, they don't work out. But if you consider that his intent isn't necessarily to throw them in jail like he would love to throw them in jail, but even if he doesn't, as long as he inconveniences them and scares them, he considers it a success. Now I think he's really playing a dangerous game because what he's doing is diverting DOJ resources in a, in a DOJ that already has had tons of resources diverted to things like ICE enforcement, things that, that are not typically in
- [51:05]
A
the, not to mention people just leaving and getting fired.
- [51:09]
B
People just leaving? Yes. Yeah, people are like sick of it. Leaving and getting fired. Plus the resources are being diverted to immigration enforcement in ways that are kind of, of unprecedented. Plus, you know, he's using, he's weaponized the DOJ to go against his enemies in these like kangaroo court type situations. And what ends up happening is. So first of all, the resources thing could be a real big problem if somebody actually is plotting something against the U.S. like, if a terrorist doing a plot might be like, hell, yeah, this is a freebie. Like, I can just skate in and do this, which would be terrible. And we also have the fact that he's alienating courts and really pissing off judges. The Broadview Six in Illinois were set free, and the grand jury transcript of it came out a few weeks ago,
- [51:55]
A
and it was scathing. Scathing, yes.
- [51:59]
B
The judges are mad, and he needs them. He can't become a Persona non grata and create a DOJ that the government just doesn't trust like that the doj,
- [52:11]
A
nor can he, because. Because they're kind of doing that.
- [52:14]
B
Right, Right. Well, I mean, he's doing. But it's doing harm that is eventually gonna harm him. That's not just harm that he's dishing out to his enemies. It's harm that's going to come back and hurt him. So I think he's playing a pretty dangerous game. And I don't think that it's. We can brush this all aside and saying, oh, well, Tish James isn't in jail, so it's fine. Because it's like a huge personal expense, a huge time expense. It drains them. So I don't think that it's something that we should pretend is okay, but it's also just kind of. It's him just trying to be annoying and create as much noise as possible.
- [52:49]
A
So when you said that he's playing a dangerous game with these courts, it reminded me of that scene from Veep where Selina Meyer says to her rival, you're playing a really dangerous game of chicken with the head. Motherfucking head. I want some judge to write that.
- [53:05]
B
I've been watching a lot of Veep lately, so it is possible that that's swimming around in my head right now.
- [53:11]
A
Well, it should always be in your head. I mean, like, there's so many times, like, when my kids do something insane, I just. I don't say it, but I do think it. Like, you're playing an incredibly dangerous game of chicken. All right, let's switch gears. Something a little more uplifting. Can we talk about the World Cup?
- [53:33]
B
Sure. Yeah.
- [53:34]
A
Okay. I'm not sporty, so I didn't watch any of it. But I have been watching the kind of cultural response to the World cup, which kicked off earlier this month. And I was a little worried at the beginning because in the beginning, it just seemed like the vibes were really off. Right. So there are all of these negative headlines about World cup athletes being questioned for hours at the airport when they were trying to enter the country. There was the discussion of the Iranian team who couldn't get visas to come to the country in play. One of the African referees was denied entry to the United States and forced to return to Somalia. But now it seems that the negative energy may have cleared a little bit. And instead what we have are these amazing videos of fans from all over the world singing together, drinking together, and generally uniting for love of the beautiful game. And. And there was this wonderfully poignant reporting about the Iranian team leaving a note in their locker room in Los Angeles thanking the city of Los Angeles for its hospitality and wishing for, quote, peace, respect, and friendship among all nations. And I have to say, it kind of warmed the cockles of my cold, dead heart. Are we doing a good job at this? I think we might be.
- [54:57]
B
Here's the thing. My husband and I were having this exact conversation last night, but my husband is really into soccer, and I'm kind of, like, sort of into it, but I've absorbed it by osmosis. And it was the exact same beats. We were worried about the cup being a disaster because of the Trump of it all, because of the crazy ticket prices that made a lot of games inaccessible for people. Just the logistical concerns, the fact that hotels were not selling out. And there are still some concerns around, like FIFA greed and organizational shortage. The Peace Prize. Yeah, yeah, the Peace Prize was stupid. I hope I win it next year. But the stadiums. There are some stadiums that aren't totally full, and that's sad. They should be full. But the vibes outside of the stadiums are impeccable. They are really, really good. There's been a real coming together of people. I've noticed that the play has been really clean, just in terms, like.
- [55:51]
A
I don't even know what that means, but I think it works.
- [55:54]
B
This is why men's soccer is not as good as women's soccer. The men are drama queens. They dive all the. Like, they have a reputation of playing up fouls and acting as though they're hurt to, like, slow the game down, which is considered kind of a dirty tactic in soccer. And this time I have not noticed, as there hasn't been a real divey game. There's games where it just slows way down because people are pretending to get hurt. Women don't dive as much as men. That's why it's better. So I've noticed.
- [56:21]
A
We don't have time for that.
- [56:22]
B
No, we don't have time for all that. The play is, is, is really top, top notch. It's been really exciting to see some unexpected ties. Some teams perform unexpectedly well. Some great stories. Like one of the goaltenders got a LinkedIn message in French and he was living in Ireland and was like, I don't know what this is. And then he got it later in English and was like, oh yeah, sure, I'll be the goalie for this African team. It's like so funny. There's so many great little stories of people, this person was gonna retire and then they didn't retire. And it's fun to watch. Like even the announcers, some of the announcers are people who used to play on different World cup teams. And like Chicharito, who was a great player from Mexico is in the booth announcing. And it's just, it's, the vibes are really good and it, I think maybe
- [57:06]
A
you sound like someone who's a fan, Aaron.
- [57:09]
B
I'm not buying this.
- [57:11]
A
Sounds very fan based, that's all I'm saying.
- [57:14]
B
I do watch the games at my house, but in like the Spanish language broadcast because their excitement is so much better. And I really love like the way that they pronounce everything. The Spanish is so beautiful. And then also you sound like someone
- [57:25]
A
who reads Playboy for the articles.
- [57:27]
B
I do read. I write the articles for Playboy. I've written an article for Playboy. I know you have, but yeah, it's really, I think that the game itself has been super high quality and really fun, but also the atmosphere around it has been great. Lawrence, Kansas, going all in for the Algerian national team because that's where their practice facility is. I just, I love it. And you know that like for years after this there's going to be 10, 11, 12 year old kids who are watching the Algerian team practice in Lawrence, Kansas. And that is going to be a core memory for them and they're always going to have an affinity for that country so that you cannot downplay how important these events are for national pride.
- [58:11]
A
I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. I've had a front seat to it here in New York City because our mayor Zoran Mandani had, has really, really been showing up for the games as the people's leader in New York City. So he's announced a free 50,000 person watch party on Central Park's great lawn for the FIFA World cup final. Honestly, Aaron, that is like my living nightmare. All those people in one place is triggering my agoraphobia. But you know what?
- [58:39]
B
Go off Marijuana, Donna? Yeah, same.
- [58:41]
A
I mean, he's actually been doing a lot of great stuff. So there's. There was this really lovely speech at the Knicks victory parade down in Lower Manhattan. And then he followed up this fantastic speech by dancing with the players, which, you know, no shade, but I never saw Michael Bloomberg dancing. Never saw. I don't think I wanna see Bill de Blasio dancing. But his charisma is absolutely infectious. And it's a model, I think, for Democratic leaders. And he obviously has a ton of capital in the bank right now, lots of political capital, and here's how Zahran Mamdani is using it. As New York gets ready for its Democratic primary, the mayor has backed a number of Democratic Socialist candidates, and they are candidates who are actually challenging incumbent Democrats for various seats in the House of Representatives. And this has actually angered a number of people in the Democratic leadership. What do you make of the mayor's position here? What do you make of what some are calling a political gamble? Is this a gamble? And if it is, is it one that Mayor Mamdani can afford to make
- [59:50]
B
right now in terms of embracing Democratic Socialists? I think that that's not a gamble. I think it just reflects. It reflects a set of desires of a voting bloc that has felt disenfranchised for many years. And I think that thinking about American government as more of a government that relies on coalitions rather than two parties is probably a more functional way for Democrats to think about themselves. If we have a big tent where there's going to be people like, on all the way on one side of the tent and all the way on the other side of the tent. But we have to figure out a way to make it work. I think figuring out a way to make it work is the only way forward. It's not. I don't think. I don't think that the. I think the Bandani comes across as someone who's very authentic to himself and his beliefs. And so it doesn't feel like a political calculation to me.
- [60:44]
A
How do you think the Democratic leadership, though, is going to respond to this? Like, I'm all for the big tent, but I don't know that everyone wants the tent to be this big.
- [60:51]
B
No, I think that there are a lot of people, like institutionalists, who want. Who are like, look, these people stayed in line. These people have been, you know, this. This sort of. Of seniority, devotion that happens in the Democratic Party. I get it. I find it to be a little bit of the story of why the Democratic Party seems A little bit lost. And we have to start doing something differently if we want to start winning. And so I know that there's going to be Democratic leaders that aren't happy about it, but I'm just kind of look at it as they're just doing their job. Voters can do their jobs. Mamdani is doing his job. And, you know, they're not always going to agree, and that's okay.
- [61:32]
A
No, I think that's exactly right. It's been really interesting to watch, and it's really going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I will also note that New York City is the best place in the world to be in June because it's Pride Month. So it's not just that the Knicks are champions, it's also Pride Month. And no one does it better than New York. But you know who needs to do it a little bit better? A bunch of MAGA governors, because they have decided that Pride Month is the perfect time to hard launch their counter programming, which requires rebranding the month of June with other observances. So in Indiana and Tennessee, we are not celebrating Pride, we are celebrating Nuclear Family Month. And in Alabama, we are going to celebrate Strong Families Month. And in Utah and Arkansas, we are going to celebrate Fidelity Month, which honestly says more about Utah. What the fuck is happening in Utah and Arkansas than anything else. But I'm like, why are. Why are we celebrating Fidelity Month in Utah and Arkansas?
- [62:36]
B
Don't cheat on your wife this month.
- [62:38]
A
Don't you Anytime or anytime.
- [62:40]
B
Really pick a sister wife and stick with her for the month of June. And then you can go back to your, you know, FLDS situation.
- [62:48]
A
What on earth? Like, what is this?
- [62:53]
B
It's another attempt to roll back progress and bring back a period of time where gay people were ashamed and segregated from society and not allowed to be themselves and their lifestyle was considered illegal. I was listening to a podcast. I'm doing research about Ronald Reagan right now for another episode of this fucking guy.
- [63:11]
A
It's a man of many contradictions.
- [63:14]
B
It's been exhausting. But I listened to footage, audio footage of a press conference from early in the AIDS epidemic when the press secretary for the Reagan White House was making fun of a reporter for asking him about, at the time it was called like, gay cancer or something. The reporter asked him about that and the press secretary made fun of him. And then the whole room of reporters laughed about the homophobic dream jokes that were being made. And that just. It wasn't that long ago I was alive in the 80s, like it wasn't that long ago that that's how gay people were talked about in the White House press briefing room. And I think that this attempt. I think there are people that never left that mindset. I think there are people, the governors of states like that, a lot of people who voted for those governors still think that it's bad to be gay, that it. That it needs to be stamped out, and they still have hope that they can. I do not underestimate the tenacity of the frothing American right to pursue a goal for decades, even if it seems like it's untenable. You and I saw this with Roe v. Wade being overturned. They are playing the long game, and I think right now we're laughing at them. But it would be dangerous for us to pretend that this isn't something that they have their sights on and they will work at it until they get what they want. Unless you stand up. Yeah.
- [64:36]
A
No, I think it's such a great point, Erin, because I think there are so many people who believe that Obergefell, for example, which is the 2015 decision, that legalized same sex marriage, that it's safe from this Supreme Court. And I've always said, you know, you don't have to overrule Obergefell to make life difficult for gay people in this country. They're making life incredibly difficult for trans people, and they'll just continue to do that. I do think it's interesting that this counter programming and the emphasis on strong families, nuclear families, monogamous families, reads into this idea that same sex marriage, gay people, gay families, just goes against the sort of bedrock order in some way that these are not real families, that these are not strong families. And obviously there is a constituency that wants to hear this that will happily celebrate this. But there is something insidious about it, and we should recognize that. Although there's also something incredibly funny about Fidelity Month and the fact that that's the one month of the year, like June doesn't even have 31 days. It's 30 days. Like, you can't stick an extra day on for your wife.
- [65:48]
B
Yeah. Come on.
- [65:50]
A
What are we doing?
- [65:50]
B
You know, I had a conversation with the author and writer Jamilah Lemieux about this, and she pointed out that it's also kind of smacks of racism. It's this. There's this kind of like dog whistle, actually. It's bad to be a single mom, actually. A matriarchal arrangement of family situations.
- [66:10]
A
Oh, It's Moynihan Report 2.0.
- [66:12]
B
Exactly. Yeah. She brought up Moynihan report. Now I keep hearing about Moynihan everywhere. It's very weird.
- [66:17]
A
That was a banger. Not the whole.
- [66:19]
B
Yeah, that was a banger, but, yeah, it just. It feels like, you know, they're really trying to. To tick all the boxes here. They're being very homophobic, but they're also being racist. So they get a two for one and sexist. A twofer while they get a three for.
- [66:34]
A
Well, I'm old enough to remember. I mean, you remembered Ronald Reagan, and I definitely remember him, but I am old enough to remember that when Donald Trump first ran for president, he held a rainbow flag at a rally and said that Caitlyn Jenner could use whatever bathroom she wanted to use. And now a decade on, his administration is barring pride flags from federal buildings, removing the names of LGBTQ icons from Navy ships. They are investigating schools that allow trans students to use their preferred bathrooms. How did this go in this direction? I mean, like, this is the President coming around to his base, not the other way around.
- [67:13]
B
Yeah, I think it went in that direction because Donald Trump was. Will do whatever it takes to get him the loudest applause or the most attention. And I think that there is probably some right wing think tank that stress tested the messaging about trans kids. And I think trans kids make a lot of people uncomfortable if they have not had any encounters with people who are trans or dealt with the complicated nature of trans healthcare, especially for children. I think it just. It's a winning approach for the maga. Right. Because it scares normal people, too, the way that they wrap up some of their messaging. There was a guest at the State of the Union this year who was represented by the President as somebody who had been transitioned secretly by her school and then ran away. And then she went and got counseling, and now she's fine. So she was trying to transition to being boy. But I looked into the real story of this person, and it sounds like she just had a really abusive home. And the transition that was happening at school was they were just using pronouns and a different name. It was like a social transition. They weren't sneaking her off to a surgical table after lunch and giving her genital surgery. But the way that Trump and his MAGA people talk about it, they do this really kind of sleight of hand thing where they. They indicate that if anybody is transitioning, even socially, that's the same thing as having irreversible medical work done on your body. So there's like a. There's A lot of that, because it's easy to slippery slope. The issue of a trans kid just identifying with the gender that they are and a person physically embodying the biological sex. They've conflated those two things. I know that's like a little bit in the weeds, but that's the thing on messaging with trans kids issues, that really gets to me because they do it all the time. I see it everywhere.
- [69:13]
A
So one of the things I think is so interesting, and it goes back to something you said about the family. Those EOs that the president issued in the early days of Trump 2.0, one of them was about protecting children from genital and chemical mutilation. That's the name of the eo. But one of the things they note that is a problem regarding the provision of gender affirming care to minors is that at some point a minor is going to experience regret that they will not be able to, one, bear children and two, nurture those children through breastfeeding, which to me explains what is at stake for them. It's not about antipathy for being transgender. It's about people not wanting to be women and mothers in a traditional sense. And that's what they are fearing. The fact that someone isn't going to gestate and deliver a child and then nurture that child, quote, unquote, through breastfeeding. It's all about maintaining these rigid gender orders that are basically about keeping women
- [70:19]
B
in their places, keeping women in their places and keeping a healthy supply of taxpayers being born, whether the women really want it or not. Making it so that the only option for them is to enter into a fidelity marriage. Yeah, a fidelity marriage marriage. A strong family's marriage family.
- [70:37]
A
A nuclear family.
- [70:38]
B
Strong family where everybody works out together. Nuclear family where everybody learns about physics. It's.
- [70:44]
A
They want or not.
- [70:46]
B
Yeah, or not. But they really want it to feel as though the only way for women to participate in society is to be pregnant over and over and over and over again. And that in turn will keep them. I mean, I have two kids. Like, it really knocked me on my ass, like, when they're still little. Mine are four and two.
- [71:06]
A
So you're in it. You're really in it.
- [71:08]
B
In it. Oh, look at these eye bags, girl. Like, I am in it. They really take so much of your time and energy that you are. You have to back burner things. That is just the nature of being a parent. Even like dads have to do it, but just not to the extent that moms do, because it's not as high of a physical toll on them, but. But it really feels like a way for them to sort of backfill women being permanently subjugated to second class citizens because I mean, two kids is not that many kids compared to how many kids people have had throughout history. My grandma had six, her mom had like 13. But it so prevents women from participating fully in society. And I think that they want there to be no option but to. To do the pregnancy thing over and over again. And I think you're completely right that being threatened by non binary trans people, people just not like living as that stereotype, is deeply threatening to that model.
- [72:11]
A
Yeah, no, it's a really terrific point, Erin. As you know, on Assembly Required, Stacey always gives her listeners some homework or a little life lesson for them to take with them. And, and I'm a law professor, which means I'm very used to giving homework. So I'm gonna offer some homework right now. Maybe this is a little tacky, but I'm just gonna do it because it's America's birthday and I feel like we need to get in the game on what America is, what it's supposed to be, and how we can play a role in making it more like that. So for the homework Assembly Required listener, I'm going to ask you to get a copy of my book, the A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader. And if you don't want to do that, just go get a pocket constitution. It will not come with my handy annotations, but it will come with the text of the Constitution and just read it. Like, seriously, that's the homework? Just read the Constitution. Because here's the thing, these folks went to work in the summer of 1787 in Philadelphia and, and they were dealing with trauma. They were truly going through it. The framers were dealing with the trauma of the colonial period where literally the British Parliament was on their necks constantly with taxes and tariffs on things that they used every day. If this sounds familiar, it should. They were also dealing with the trauma of fighting a war against the greatest global superpower that anyone had ever seen. And they were doing it with a government that was literally held together with gum and friendship bracelets. They went to Philadelphia to create a government that was strong enough to work and operate efficiently, but was not so strong that it would become tyrannical the way the king and the Parliament had been in their lives. And that's what they do with the Constitution. They structure a government that divides power between the federal government and the states. And then between the three branches of the federal government, so that no single entity can consolidate too much power and become tyrannical. And then once they do that, they realize, maybe we should give the people some explicit rights that the government can't encroach upon. So they draft the Bill of Rights and they give us fundamental rights going forward. But then they have this other insight. What's the point of structuring a limited government? What's the point of rights if the people aren't prepared to jealously guard their rights and enforce the limits on government? So the point of the Constitution, the point of writing it down, is that they wanted the people to read it. They wanted the people to debate it, to understand its terms. And here's the kicker, to enforce those terms when the government went too far. And here we are, the 250th anniversary of America's birth. It's not the 250th anniversary of the Constitution, but maybe we could do the homework so we're prepared for when that happens. They wanted us to really be engaged with this, and I don't know that we are right now. I don't know that we're engaging. I get questions all the time from strict scrutiny listeners. Can they do that? Can the President do this? It's in the syllabus. Read the syllabus, find out. You can do this. We can all do this. We have to do this because honestly, this is how democracy works. People knowing what the limits are, knowing what their rights are, and stepping up and defending those limits and rights whenever the government encroaches on them. So did I sell you, Erin, Are you going to buy this book right now?
- [75:40]
B
Is this what you're reading to your
- [75:42]
A
4 and 2 year olds? Cause it needs to start early. Erin Aaron, do your kids know about the Constitution?
- [75:48]
B
No. But you know what? Whenever I hear you talk about the law and the Constitution, Melissa, I get it in my head that I should go to law school. And then I tell myself that Phyllis Schlafly went when she was 45. So I still have time.
- [76:00]
A
Yes, Phyllis Schlafly, the St. Louis housewife who killed the ERA. Let's use law school for good and not evil. Yeah, here's the story.
- [76:09]
B
I would undo her. I could undo it. You could.
- [76:12]
A
But this book is literally $20 and law school is like $200,000, so that's
- [76:17]
B
not a real number.
- [76:19]
A
I think it is getting to be that expensive.
- [76:22]
B
No, that's. That's exciting. I actually need to add that book to my Basket. I actually might go to Skylight on the way home and pick it up
- [76:30]
A
because I'm telling you, I really, I tried to make this book accessible to lay readers. It is not for law professors. I think Larry Tribe read it and was like, well, Melissa, what about this? And I was like, larry, it's not for you. This isn't for you. Like, we're not getting into the vagaries of the 13th Amendment. Like, I just wanted people to have like a general idea of what's going on. And if your appetite is whetted after you read this, then go to law school and take Larry Tribe's class. But this is for lay readers, high school students. I was the commencement speaker at a high school in New York City and I gave every one of the graduates one of these books and was like, that's awesome. Well, it's just like you are going to be out in the world, 18 year old adults. You have to know how this government works. Literally. I felt like Princess Leia with R2D2, like, you are our only hope. Was she talking to R2? She was talking through R2D2 through R2D2 to Obi Obi, Obi Wan Kenobi. I don't do sports and I don't do Star wars, but there we go. Are.
- [77:33]
B
Well, that sounds like an incredible way into the Constitution for people who want to know and maybe don't have the Lawrence Tribe level know how of the Constitution.
- [77:43]
A
Who doesn't want to know about the Constitution?
- [77:45]
B
Like, this is the thing, it's super interesting.
- [77:47]
A
I told my publisher it's going to be a runaway bestseller. And they were like, really?
- [77:50]
B
And I'm like, it is a bestseller. It is.
- [77:52]
A
It. It's been on the New York Times bestseller list. I think people are actually hungry to have a better understanding of things things right now. And you know, we don't have consistent civics education in our public school curricula or even in some of the independent schools. I mean it really is kind of hit or miss. This is a way I think we can all kind of get on the same page. And again, you don't have to buy my book. Although I'd love it if you did. But go read the Constitution, like figure out what's going on here and get engaged.
- [78:21]
B
I have a question for you, Melissa. What's your favorite amendment?
- [78:25]
A
My favorite amendment, I'm so glad you asked. My favorite amendment is genuinely the 14th amendment because this is the amendment that remade the country after the Civil War. The 13th Amendment, which I alluded to earlier abolishes slavery. The 15th Amendment gives black men the right to vote. The 14th Amendment is really about structuring the terms of citizenship, and they do it by juxtaposing citizenship freedom with enslavement. Right. So if being a citizen means not being a wage slave, not being a slave at any time, it just opens up a whole new world. So they're literally structuring the whole understanding of what it means to be a citizen in the United States in juxtaposition to what they knew through enslavement. And it's just. I think it's masterful. The 14th Amendment's principal framer is a man from Ohio named Senator John Bingham. We don't even know about John Bingham. Like, I mean, think about it. We know about Benjamin Franklin and James Madison and all of these framers, yet John Bingham fundamentally changes the constitutional order, and we don't even know his name. Right. That's by design. They don't want us to know about the 14th amendment. They don't want to know about this fundamental renegotiation of the power of the federal government and the states. And between the federal government, the states, and the people, there is a second founding. It starts with the Reconstruction Amendments, of which the 14th amendment is one. And it lays the foundation for this multiracial, multi faith democracy with women in it who are not just at home having babies.
- [80:07]
B
That's great. I'm glad they're not at home having babies, because that shit gets really boring.
- [80:12]
A
Well, I mean, to be fair, we had to get to the 19th amendment for women to fully get out of the house and to the ballot box, and then the Voting Rights act for all the women to get out of the house into the ballot box. But it did happen.
- [80:22]
B
It did happen.
- [80:22]
A
Change is possible.
- [80:23]
B
Change is possible. That is a great note to reference.
- [80:26]
A
I think so, too. It's almost like you're a host of a podcast. Erin, you know when to land this plane.
- [80:34]
B
I'm gonna. I was telling people at a meeting last week, I've been. Hysteria's been going on since 2018, and I'm gonna die here. I'm gonna just.
- [80:44]
A
Well, you don't have to die alone. I'm always listening to Hysteria. So whenever you want some company, call me up. I will chop it up with you on Hysteria.
- [80:52]
B
Oh, thank you. You know what? Hold that thought, because I probably am gonna. I'm probably gonna hold you to that one.
- [80:58]
A
I would love to. And thank you so much for joining me today on Assembly Required. Thank you, listeners for bearing with the absence of Stacey Abrams and letting me sit in the host's seat for a while. You have been fantastic. So as always on Assembly Required, we're asking you to be curious, solve problems and do good. So be curious about the Constitution. It's Pride Month. Get Constitution Curious. Solve problems. If you see them doing something and you wonder can the President do that? Go to the Constitution and and you can figure it out. I promise you can do this. And if you can't figure out the exact answer, I know you can get pretty close. It's what Brett Kavanaugh is doing. Do good. Share the Constitution with people you love, especially young people. Go and check out the National Constitution Center. It is a federally funded organization that is located in Philadelphia and they do amazing work to educate young people, adults, everybody, every American about the Constitution. Go check out their fantastic work work all about this document that scaffolds our government and indirectly, our lives. I want to thank those of you who have been sharing your questions and comments about the recent Supreme Court decision on voting rights, Louisiana versus Calais, in the Assembly Notes Substack or in the Crooked Media Discord Channel and all of the other platforms where you engage. Please keep those questions and comments coming. Please tell other people about the podcast and add Assembly Required to your feed. You can let us know what episodes resonate with you and what topics you'd like to know more about. And in case you're wondering, Stacy and the team really do read the comments. So there's this comment from Citizen Morgan7444 who writes, thank you Ms. Abrams, for taking the time in putting these episodes together to help us become a more informed voter, showing us how to be a better citizen Citizen. And we would like to thank you, Citizen Morgan, for being part of the Assembly Required community and sharing your thoughts with us. Whether it's compliments or constructive criticism, keep this criticism constructive, folks. Nobody wants to be in a cage match on the White House lawn, but please keep that feedback coming. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. This is Melissa Murray sitting in for Stacy. Get out there, do good out there and we'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a Cricket media production. Our show is produced by Alina Minkowski and Farah Safari with Katie Long and Adrienne Hill. Our team includes Matt De Groat, Ben Heathcote, Kiril Palaviv, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis and Jay Banks. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Right the of Guild of America East. Did you know Fred's Appliance has been
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