Real Non-Violence, Feminism, and Fighting Authoritarianism (w/ Roxane Gay)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams

Episode: Real Non-Violence, Feminism, and Fighting Authoritarianism (w/ Roxane Gay)
Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Stacey Abrams
Guest: Roxane Gay (writer, professor, commentator)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of authoritarianism in America, feminism, activism, and the real meaning of non-violence in resistance. Stacey Abrams engages in a candid, wide-ranging conversation with Roxane Gay, touching on the state of immigration detention, the targeting of Black women, generational activism, the failures and necessity of feminism, and the importance of finding hope and pleasure even in difficult times.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Rise of Immigration "Prison Camps" (02:35–09:18)

• Abrams opens with a critical look at the expansion of immigration detention centers, reframing them as "prison camps."
• Inhumane Conditions: Reports of medical neglect, poor nutrition, and traumatization of children and families who are largely non-criminal immigrants.
• Moral Call to Action: Abrams calls for public vigilance and political action to end this practice and reclaim America’s foundational values of humanity and decency.

Quote:
"We are judged on how we treat the least of these, on how we care for the stranger, let alone our neighbors." — Stacey Abrams (07:45)

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2. Authoritarianism and the Targeting of Black Women (09:42–12:36)

• Abrams and Gay discuss how authoritarian strategies in the U.S. uniquely target Black women — both as scapegoats and because of their central role in sustaining democracy.
• Intersectional Attack: Black women are an “effective target” because of the overlap of racism and misogyny.
• Warning for All: Gay warns that oppression initially aimed at marginalized groups often expands to everyone.

Quote:
“They [Black women] are a very convenient scapegoat because they are both women and they are Black…And what happens to Black women will eventually happen to everyone else.” — Roxane Gay (10:52)

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3. Language, Resistance, and the Power of the Vernacular (12:36–15:52)

• After the murder of activist Renee Goode, far-right terminology targeting white women as “awfuls” (affluent white female urban liberals) becomes mainstream.
• Gay emphasizes the importance of resisting right-wing colonization of language and narrative, and laments the lack of effective counter-discourse from progressives.

Quote:
“We have put up very little resistance to letting Republicans and extreme conservatives control the discourse. Like, we are losing this war miserably.” — Roxane Gay (15:06)

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4. Why Progressive Messaging Struggles (19:16–21:51)

• Abrams and Gay discuss why progressive ideas, despite being broadly popular and just, fail to capture the public’s imagination or spread at scale.
• The Dilemma: Should progressives “play dirty” to compete, or would that undermine the cause?

Quote:
“Selling really popular ideas is really hard. And I don’t know what it’s going to take. Do we have to play evil? Are we willing to do that?” — Roxane Gay (20:24)

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5. Nonviolence, Aggression, and the Limits of Civility (21:51–26:38)

• Gay reflects on her previous position that violence cannot be progressives’ answer, while acknowledging frustration and the complexity of true non-violence.
• Nonviolence should not be equated with passivity; it demands disciplined, active, and often confrontational resistance.
• Examples of Effective Action: Minneapolis’s community response to federal raids and the viral, sustained protests under the “No Kings” banner.

Quote:
“Nonviolent doesn’t mean demure. Nonviolent means we are resisting in ways that do not resort to violence…It’s very active. It’s very, very difficult to actually do.” — Roxane Gay (26:38)

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6. Activism, Inclusion, and Radical Hospitality (29:47–32:45)

• The need to make activist spaces accessible and inclusive—accommodating for working hours, childcare, disability, and neurodiversity.
• Radical Hospitality: Borrowing from disability activism to broaden access and real participation.

Quote:
“Sometimes it really is the details that matter, and it’s the details we overlook by assuming everyone has equally disposable time and disposable access to activist spaces.” — Roxane Gay (31:08)

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7. The Epstein Files and Accountability (36:36–41:32)

• Gay voices deep disillusionment with lack of accountability for powerful men involved in Epstein’s criminal network.
• Cultural Exhaustion: Many are tired of survivor testimony and systemic misogyny remains deeply entrenched.

Quote:
“It’s not at all any surprise that the most powerful men in the world will face no consequences for being part of Jeffrey Epstein’s Pedo Island… Just the way the world hates women. Very eye opening.” — Roxane Gay (37:40)

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8. Feminism’s Role in the Present Moment (41:32–45:42)

• Despite “progress,” feminist struggles remain urgent, especially with abortion access, the pay gap, and the backlash to DEI.
• Intersectionality: Not all women experience oppression equally; inclusion must honor those differences.
• Countering the Manosphere: A critique of framing current crises as singularly affecting young men; young women and the gender-diverse face unique and overlapping struggles too.

Quote:
“Feminism is needed now more than ever… It has always been to fight for women to have equity in society and to remember that we have every right to demand bodily autonomy.” — Roxane Gay (41:32)

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9. The Hope and Challenges of Activist Students (48:51–51:19)

• Gay observes current students are the most activist-minded in two decades, harnessing generational energy and necessity, but also facing severe institutional pushback.
• Importance of understanding risks, maintaining academic balance, and learning from activist lineages.

Quote:
“It’s fun and it’s complicated, but I do try to help them strike a balance. And also I tell them that rest matters and that you can’t do it all.” — Roxane Gay (59:13)

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10. Rest, Pleasure, and Sustaining Resistance (60:12–61:34)

• Both Abrams and Gay emphasize the critical importance of rest, pleasure, and finding joy—even in resistance.
• Self-care is framed not as retreat, but as essential for sustaining activism.

Quote:
“All of the things we’re fighting for are not going to matter if we don’t have anything left to give ourselves and our families.” — Roxane Gay (61:18)

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11. Actionable Homework: Local Engagement (61:57–63:36)

• Gay’s tangible suggestion for listeners: attend a city council or community meeting.
• Immediate Impact: Local engagement can be restorative, tangible, and a reminder that change happens closest to home.

Quote:
“The homework I would give people is go to a local city council meeting…It reminds us that our communities matter, in addition to all of these very global and national things.” — Roxane Gay (61:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When you come for one of us, you come for all of us.” — Roxane Gay (15:30)
• “We can protect America best by defending our values, not when it’s easy, but because it is hard.” — Stacey Abrams (07:56)
• “The men are going to be okay…Let’s have some perspective here.” — Roxane Gay (48:23)
• “Rest matters, and you can’t do it all." — Roxane Gay (59:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Immigration Prison Camps & Moral Call: 02:35–09:18
• Targeting of Black Women/Authoritarianism: 09:42–12:36
• Control of Language & Narrative: 12:36–15:52
• Progressive Messaging & Strategy: 19:16–21:51
• Nonviolence vs. Civility in Activism: 21:51–26:38
• Inclusive Activism / Radical Hospitality: 29:47–32:45
• Epstein Files & Accountability: 36:36–41:32
• Feminist Framework for the Moment: 41:32–45:42
• Student Activism & Hope: 48:51–51:19
• Rest & Finding Pleasure: 60:12–61:34
• Homework: Local Meetings: 61:57–63:36

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a raw, honest, and deeply practical conversation about resisting authoritarianism, the ongoing necessity of feminism, and the complexity of fighting for justice without succumbing to despair or adopting the tactics of one's adversaries. Through reflections on language, organizing, accountability, and the need for joy, Stacey Abrams and Roxane Gay provide both analysis and actionable steps for listeners determined to do good in challenging times.

Transcript

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by the Context. If you're listening to our show, it's safe to say you care about where American democracy stands and where it's headed. There's another show you should know about. It's called the Context from the Charles F. Kettering Foundation. The Context is a show about how to make democracy work for everyone and why that's so hard to do. I was a guest on the show back in 2024 and I talked about how DEI is in America's DNA, that standing up for people who are different from ourselves is a core American value. You've heard that democracy is in crisis. Many Americans feel alienated from their government. Trust in institutions is failing, corruption and polarization have been dominating the headlines, and a lot of folks are being left behind. But that's not the whole story. On the Context host Alex Levitt, Kettering Senior program officer and historian, speaks with leaders, big thinkers and folks on the ground, all working on the front lines of democratic practice. Together they examine the challenges and strengths of a system where, in an ideal world, everyone gets a say. This isn't partisan spin. These are careful, clear eyed, nonpartisan conversations on how democracy works and how you can help make it work better. Find the Context wherever you get your

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[Stacey Abrams]

Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams.

[Narrator/Reporter]

In the quiet town of Social Circle, Georgia, a massive warehouse is poised to become one of the largest immigration Prison

[Interviewer/Host]

camps in the United States.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Federal officials plan to convert the 1 million square foot building into a facility capable of holding 10,000 people, a scale rarely seen in modern detention systems.

[Interviewer/Host]

If it opens as planned, the facility

[Narrator/Reporter]

would more than triple the small city's population overnight. But across America, more and more warehouses are planned and are quietly and not so quietly being purchased. What should terrify us all is that its inmates are not dangerous criminals. They're just families like yours. Taxpayers who may have overstayed a visa or shown up for an immigration appointment. Kids yanked off of schoolyards and out of daycare, all housed in horrific conditions for the crime of missing paperwork. The term of art used is detention center.

[Stacey Abrams]

But what we are witnessing is the

[Narrator/Reporter]

rise of immigration prison camps. Investigations across the country have uncovered dozens of credible reports of medical neglect. Inside these immigration detention centers and camps across the country, moms and dads are reportedly denied insulin, left untreated for days with serious symptoms, and forced to compete for clean drinking water. What were intended as short term detention facilities have become makeshift prisons for thousands of everyday folks who pose no actual threat. Look, if the majority of the incarcerated were hardened criminals, the lack of humane care would still be troubling. But 74% of the inmates are not dangerous predators. Most of them don't have a single criminal conviction. Instead, the people that are being imprisoned in America on our behalf are neighbors, teachers, small business owners. They are moms and dads, aunts and uncles, and they are children. In the small town of Dilley, Texas, children being held at the Dilley Immigration Processing center recently described months of confinement, months of poor food, and months of delayed medical care. Many of them have said that the experience leaves them feeling fearful and depressed and traumatized. And what else would we expect?

[Stacey Abrams]

Look.

[Narrator/Reporter]

These children miss home. Letters and interviews with these kiddie prisoners reveal how prolonged confinement has disrupted families and devastated their lives. We're talking about young children who were in school only weeks ago, learning their ABCs or studying social studies. And they're now asking simple questions that no teacher can or should have to answer. What did we do wrong to be put here? If this behavior is expanded to the more than 20 sites that are being scouted by DHS, the these family prison camps will house thousands of adults and children in structures never designed for human habitation. Advocates have warned that converting warehouses into detention facilities illustrates exactly how the authoritarian cabal views the people inside it. And let's remember, these are our people.

[Stacey Abrams]

They are here.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They are our neighbors. They are people we know. Now, I don't want us to pretend that immigration detention hasn't long faced overcrowding,

[Interviewer/Host]

inadequate medical care and poor nutrition services. We know that. And we know that scaling that system

[Narrator/Reporter]

up inside repurposed industrial spaces will explode the brokenness of a system that requires fixing, not expanding. This is not a partisan issue. Local officials and residents across the political spectrum and around the country have raised alarms. A functioning immigration system must meet a basic test of humanity. But when investigations reveal babies with measles, malnourished toddlers, and parents denied medical care in 2026 in the United States, when these are families left without adequate food and water, and in our country, the appropriate response is reform and accountability, not unchecked expansion. We are judged on how we treat the least of these, on how we care for the stranger, let alone our neighbors. But the expansion of these family prison camps represents a broader crossroads in the national failure for the fight for our country's soul. Trump and Republicans are constructing an ever growing immigration prison industrial complex, one that operates largely out of public view, but is in our name. When it's populated mostly by families who pose no danger, we all fail. When the voices crying out are innocent children, we are imperiled. That's why now more than ever, we must be vigilant and vocal. We can protect America best by defending our values, not when it's easy, but because it is hard. I'd argue, though, that ending family prison camps isn't hard. It's the right thing to do to save the soul of our nation. We can do the right thing right now. We can contact our members of Congress to demand oversight of immigration, detention, and the end to family prison camps. You can call your state legislator, your county commissioner, and ask where they stand on these issues. Are they giving over land and buildings to support this behavior? And then you can support organizations working to ensure transparency and humane treatment inside

[Stacey Abrams]

these facilities while we fight to end them.

[Narrator/Reporter]

If you are waiting for a reason

[Interviewer/Host]

to act, here it is.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Systems this large and this dangerous grow by accident. And they don't grow overnight. They grow because people stop caring. So show that you care. Bring these children and their parents home. Because an America with family prison camps

[Interviewer/Host]

isn't America at all.

[Stacey Abrams]

Joining me this week to discuss the meaning of nonviolence, the hypocrisy of the Epstein files, and and this generation's student activist is writer, professor and commentator Roxane Gay.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Roxane Gay, welcome to Assembly Required.

[Roxane Gay]

Thank you so much. Stacey Abrams. Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer/Host]

I appreciate it. So this is a show where we work to deconstruct what's happening, give people a sense of agency about how to approach it, and then do something about it. And so, over the past year, we've spent a great deal of time demystifying what authoritarianism looks like in practice in the United States. And as you certainly understand, before now, most people only understood authoritarianism from the History Channel or from news articles and maybe some show they watched on Apple. But there are dimensions of this strain of authoritarianism that I would argue are unique to America. For example, the gutting of government is designed to break people's trust in a democracy that they think only nominally serves them. And why I wanted to talk to you about this is because we know one of the key targets in this regime's attack has been black women. We know that they have been uniquely targeted. And I would love for you to talk about why and how black women have become such a salient and effective target of this American strain of authoritarianism.

[Roxane Gay]

That's a good question. For one, people don't respect women, and they don't respect black people. And so black women are a very convenient scapegoat because they are both women and they are black. And people tend to take black women for granted. Black women tend to do a lot of the thankless and invisible work that keeps this country running. And so to undermine that base and also that base of Democratic support is really just a very political and very deviant strategy. And it's really alarming to see just how sweeping the Trump administration's attacks on black women have been, particularly given that black women hold so few seats of power, and they're going after black women at every sort of milieu. And to see racism and misogyny working together so effectively is a reminder that the American project has always been this. And until people contend with that, it will always be this way. And what happens to black women will eventually happen to everyone else. But there are a lot of people in profound states of denial that they won't be affected. And very soon here, especially given this bizarre and unjust war happening in Iran, people are going to start to feel it who aren't black women. And we're going to say, yet again, we told you so, and we're going to be ignored yet again. But that's, you know, it's not okay, but it is what it is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, in the aftermath of Renee Goode's killing, we saw for a moment this realization, particularly among white women, that they, too, were potential targets. And we also saw in the aftermath of her killing the far right popularized the term awful or affluent white female urban liberal, basically using that language to describe any white woman who wanted to participate in recognizing these two strains that you describe as problematic. Instead, they have been treated as a new enemy and a new form of domestic terrorism. And you know, there's a lot to unpack there. Can you talk about how you think the discomfort turned animus about her race and gender? Speak to what you just described, which is the authoritarianism that's going to get to everyone eventually.

[Roxane Gay]

Well, for one, it's exactly that a lot of white women realized that this isn't. It's not that they were thinking this was all fun and games, but I do think they thought that resistance was as simple as showing up. And that is certainly part of it. But so much of what white women's resistance had been to that point had been sort of these shows of solidarity after which they could safely go home. They could wear a white pantsuit or a pink pussy hat and demonstrate that, yes, I believe in equality and I believe in progress, but I'm also going to go home and be safe. After Renee Goode was murdered, they started to realize I'm not. My whiteness and my womanhood do not protect me in the ways that I thought I am disposable to this administration. And this administration so often controls the discourse, and they're so good at dominating the vernaculars that we use that they were immediately able to label these women who are doing very interesting and useful work, and to dismiss those efforts and to make it seem like a negative thing that white women were showing up in solidarity with women of color and immigrant communities, et cetera. And so one of the key things that we always have to remember is that we do have to resist the ways in which colonizers try to continue to colonize our language, the ways that we refer to one another, the things that happen to us. And so far we have put up very little resistance to letting Republicans and extreme conservatives control the discourse. Like, we are losing this war miserably. And nobody seems up to the challenge of pushing back and saying, you know what? You don't get to hijack language in this way. You don't get to label women in this way. You don't get to dismiss these efforts in this way. When you come for one of us, you come for all of us. Like nobody has been able to really mount a robust effort to resist these things. And before long we see the creep where we see progressive minded people using these very same phrases and ideas. Haha. As a joke, but it's not a joke.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, much more when we come back from the break.

[Stacey Abrams]

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[Interviewer/Host]

So you said no one has done this. And I know there are orgs and individuals, myself included. You know, we've tried to reclaim the language, or at least not even reclaim. We've tried to refuse the dismantling of dei and we have seen people try in their various ways. What do you think is the missing ingredient?

[Stacey Abrams]

Is it scale?

[Interviewer/Host]

Is it volume? Is it salient? Like when you said, you know, it hasn't been done, I don't disagree with you, so what would you do? If you were in charge right now, what would you do?

[Roxane Gay]

Yeah, and I will say it hasn't been done at scale. It hasn't been done in a way that it grabs the popular imagination. Like Republicans got that awful phrasing into the vernacular in a matter of days. Part of the reason they're able to do that is because they play dirty and anything is free game. And they know that there are enough people who have enough prejudices that they will quickly adopt these ideas because it affirms their worldview. And for whatever reason, what progressive people are selling, people are not interested in buying. Why people are not interested in a just world. Equal wages for equal work, bodily autonomy, open and safe borders, like, these are awesome things. And so I actually don't know what the answer is. It is very confusing and also just heartbreaking that selling really popular ideas is really hard. And I don't know what it's going to take. Do we have to play evil? Are we willing to do that? Does that undermine our politics if we do so, does that even matter at this point, when we're losing so badly? I. I've just never seen anything like this in my 51 years. Now, these things have happened before. They're cyclical. It will happen again. Rise and fall, up and down. But to see the way that so many Americans are willing to sacrifice so many of their neighbors in favor of bigotry, in favor of racism and misogyny, homophobia and transphobia, it really makes you wonder. But I suppose a country built on the backs of stolen land and stolen people, I suppose there's not much more you can Expect from it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I would argue that you've actually signaled that you expect a little bit more because you wrote an op ed for the New York Times about how our own cities and streets are being made into fair game for masked agents to come and swoop people up. The article was the risk we face in opposing Trump, but in it, you argued that what the Trump administration is doing is absolutely violent and abhorrent, but that violence cannot be our answer in response. So you said we shouldn't do evil.

[Roxane Gay]

I did, and I believe that. But at the same time, I don't know if there's any other way.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I'm gonna tell you what you said. You said, we cannot demand justice for our undocumented neighbors, rage against senseless murders, and in the next breath, call for our enemies to die. And I think, I mean, to your point, you're doing it right now. You are having a conversation with yourself because you had this previous op ed that called civility a fantasy.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And I think it's an important dynamic

[Interviewer/Host]

and tension that we're watching play out. And what I appreciate about your work is that you're willing to, you know, you don't contradict yourself, but you do question yourself, and you do it in a very public space. And for a lot of people, they're having this conversation in their heads. They are, we should do this, but they don't want to be the one doing this or this should happen. And then they recoil when they see it. And so how do you see our role as people who have to resist, but also protect our own humanity in this moment? And how are you navigating your own internal tension?

[Roxane Gay]

Well, very carefully. And I will also say, you know, in that op ed, one of the key things I was pushing back against is that I was seeing so many progressive people talking about, like, the death penalty for all of them, for all of the ICE agents and other federal agents and members of the right, the far right. And I totally understand that instinct. These are not people who I feel like should be sharing, like, the same air as us. But as someone who is very much against the death penalty unilaterally, I just thought, we can't be against the death penalty except for these exceptions who really bother us. Like, we have to be. We have to figure out something. Our justice system is not working, but we do have to hold true to our principles. And that, of course, extends to lesser forms, like less extreme examples. But I also think it's fine. I do believe civility is a myth, and I think there's a long distance between civility and like nonviolence and extreme things like murder. Like, there's a lot of places where we can do some activism and push back. And I do believe the time for gentle discussion, or even not so gentle discussion. I think that we're at the point where we need to be way more aggressive. And what that aggression looks like, I don't know. But I also believe that we have to have these difficult conversations with ourselves and with our communities to try and figure out the most effective ways forward because we're seeing things that do work. I do think Minneapolis was an interesting is it's still ongoing is an interesting and surprising thing because I believe the administration felt like they were going to go to Minneapolis and like Minnesota, nice, and everyone was going to sort of stay inside their homes during the coldest time of the year. And instead Minneapolis and Minnesota at large was like, no, no, no, you're not going to take our neighbors. We are going to resist you, we are going to harass you, we are going to follow you, and most importantly, we are going to document what you are doing. And so they have given us a really interesting model that I hope that we can bring to other cities. And so one of the key things we do need to do is look at what's actually working and more importantly, acknowledge that as overwhelming as this all seems, and as hopeless as it all seems, there are things that are working. They may not be working in exactly the ways that we want, they may not be as far reaching or wide sweeping as we would like, but they are happening. And Minneapolis is one of those really great examples of people pushing back. We've seen also in Los Angeles and Chicago and other cities across the country that people are pushing back and saying, not in our name and not in this country. And I hope that we can all continue to do that in our communities.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, one of the ways that we've

[Interviewer/Host]

seen that attempt made are the no Kings protest. And so far these demonstrations have mostly been nonviolent. Where do you see and where do you position this kind of sustained nonviolent protest in the continuum of efforts that you wish were more prevalent across the country?

[Roxane Gay]

One of the key things I would love to see is for people to recognize that nonviolent doesn't mean like demure. Very mindful, very demure. It nonviolent means that we are resisting in ways that do not resort to violence, that do not predicate submission via violence, et cetera. And so I do think it is a way forward. I don't think it's the only way. And I also think that nonviolence doesn't mean that we don't protest and that we, like, protect buildings and things like that. So many people get up in arms like, oh my God, there's a CVS on fire. Yeah, CVS will be fine. They will. Especially, you know, provided there's no human beings in the building, etc. But I just think we have to stop treating nonviolence as passive because it's actually not passive at all. It's very active. It's very, very difficult to actually do because violence tends to beget violence. But historically, we have seen that nonviolence does work. It does take a lot of time. It takes a lot of coordination. And fortunately, there are so many activists and activist organizations who are willing to put in that labor and lay those groundworks. And no, Kings is a great example of that. They are very well organized. Their protests tend to become very viral, for lack of a better word. And they happen in cities all across the country, from small towns all the way to major metropolises. And there's something to see there. You know, some people, like the more cynical among us, I get it, I guess, but tend to dismiss that. But like, no people are showing up. People are coming out of their homes and marching in the streets to say, we do not stand for this, we do not want this. And rather than dismiss it, we should take note that however powerful the current administration is, we are powerful too. And there are more of us than there are of them, despite the election's outcome.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I actually point to the election's outcome as proof of that, that they got 77 million, we got 75 million. If you were on the O' Hara side, that's a 1.5 million person gap. That's not. Sorry. I think at last count it was a little closer to 2 million. But we're talking about a suburb of New York. We are not talking about the whole of a country.

[Roxane Gay]

And that was also a gap that could have been filled by Kamala Harris, who did the best she could under some difficult circumstances and was not really set up for success. But had she had a different policy toward Gaza and the genocide there, we might have seen a very different outcome from the people who were either disenchanted or were protesting and not voting. So I was very. I think, like most people, I was disappointed, but I also understood there really are more of us.

[Interviewer/Host]

There are 90 million people who didn't show up. About 37 to 38 million of those are low income folks. For them, some of the sometimes the conversation is, I haven't seen anything change in my community, no matter who gets elected, and they don't feel that this conversation includes them. And Roxanne, one of the things that you really are thoughtful about is how do we ensure that spaces and conversations and protests even are genuinely inclusive and inviting? Like, what does it take to build these opportunities in these spaces that, you know, just claim solidarity but actually embody them?

[Roxane Gay]

One of the key things is that we have to really make sure that we're creating room at the table for people from all walks of life. A lot of times, especially in progressive movements, people tend to be very sort of top down and tend to say, like, I know what's right. This is what your community needs. Instead of like going to communities and actually asking people, hey, what do you think? Why don't you tell us what you need? What do you want? How would you know? So shared leadership and also making sure that we are creating activist spaces that are in fact inclusive. So what time are you holding those meetings? Are you holding those meetings when people who have children can attend? Are you holding those meetings when people who work two jobs and, you know, need to sort of transition between one job and the next can actually attend? Is childcare going to be made available for people who don't have any other options for what they do with their children during these meetings? Sometimes it really is the details that matter and it's the details that we overlook by assuming that everyone has equally disposable time and disposable access to activist spaces. And so I really do believe if we focused a little more on some of those details, we could be more inclusive and then also offering different ways for people to participate that accommodate disability neurodivergence. There are a lot of people who I think would love to join protests and be out and about, but don't have it in them for whatever reason. What are ways in which they can participate from their homes? What are ways in which people who are differently abled can march? How do we create safe spaces within these marches for people with disabilities who have assistive devices who need a bench to sit on every once in a while? And so a lot of disability activists talk about radical hospitality. And I think if we brought this idea of radical hospitality to activist spaces, we could be more inclusive and make sure that there are more voices at all of these decision making tables.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When we come back, more from my

[Stacey Abrams]

conversation with Roxane Gay. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Wild Alaskan Company. When was the last time you truly trusted the seafood you brought home in the mad rush to grocery shop for the week? Sometimes it can be tricky to find quality, sustainable seafood. That's where Wild Alaskan Company comes in. My parents love having a box delivered directly to their doorstep so they don't have to bother with the hassle of shopping and can get straight to cooking. Wild Alaskan company is 100% wild caught never farmed. This means there are no antibiotics, GMOs or additives, just clean, real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. Wild Alaskan fish is frozen off the boat to lock in taste, texture and nutrients like omega 3s and it is sustainably sourced Wild caught from Alaska. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and your membership delivers flexible shipments, expert tips and truly feel good seafood. Right now my parents are testing out new recipes on the Coho Salmon and the Pacific Halibut. Try it risk free with a 100% money back guarantee. Not all fish are the same. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com assembly for $35 off of your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com assembly For $35 off of your first order. Thanks to wild alaskan company for sponsoring this episode. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by MSI United States. MSI Reproductive Choices provides contraception and safe abortion to women in 36 countries, mostly Africa and Asia. Their 2025 impact report is just out and last year they served 27.8 million people. They focus on women living in poverty and places without health care facilities. Young people who've never received any kind of sex education. They want to remind you that women with limited choices don't stop being women. They need control of their bodies so they can get an education or better paying job so they can decide how many kids they want or take time between pregnancies. MSI Reproductive Choices is one of the few women's healthcare organizations that's still going strong despite all the cuts in foreign aid. This is a real opportunity to do some good. For $30 you can give a year of contraception to six women. That's transformative impact. For $30. Text Abrams that's a B R a M S to 511-511 and make a donation to MSI United States today. You can also learn more on their website msiunitedstates.org Modern Safe Informed msiunitedstates.org Go to MSI United States.org that's M as in modern, S as in safe, I as in informed. Or again, you can just text Abrams to 511-511- they don't get any money from the US government, so to help them out, go to MSI United States.org or you can just text my last name. Abrams to 511-511- Text Abrams to 511-511. Let me give you the website one more time. MSIUnitedStates.org thanks for giving them a look. Text fees.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, what you're describing is very much the idea of living your values, of, you know, aligning those values with our practices, which is a very awkward way for me to talk to you about the Epstein files and the remarkable hypocrisy we are seeing. You know, you. You are someone who is a survivor who has been so open about your experiences. How are you feeling about how little accountability men in power are facing and how much weight is being put on survivors to push this forward?

[Roxane Gay]

Honestly, ssdd, Like, I don't think anything has changed in this realm. This is one of those areas where we have seen no progress and in fact, we've probably lost some ground. Even when MeToo kind of rose to the cultural forefront, there were a lot of men in particular who said, I had no idea it was this bad, and that's a choice that means you simply were not paying attention. But shortly thereafter, there were also a lot of men mostly, but people more, you know, also just across the gender spectrum who were like, oh, I'm just so tired of this. And like, why can't we have a little fun at work? And so on. And so if people were exhausted by the mere idea of listening to people share their stories of suffering from sexual abuse and violence and predation, it's not at all any surprise that the most powerful men in the world will face no consequences for being part of Jeffrey Epstein's Pedo Island. It's disheartening, but it's not at all. I'm. This is one of those things where I'm like, yeah, this tracks. This is exactly what I expected. What's weird is seeing the UK actually do some actionable things for I think it's Peter Mendelsohn and Andrew with the several last names now that he's no longer a prince, which. Excellent, good start. And so I don't know what it's going to take because I don't know that if a Democrat was in power, we would be seeing much movement on the Epstein files either. We would like to believe that it would be better, and I'm sure it would be. But would we really see a lot of movement when it's in fact billionaires and their friends that are on these lists and that have enabled this, that this happened in sort of plain sight for decades? And people knew it. People across the political spectrum knew it. So it just shows how little we care about women and how little we care about survivors, because Epstein, survivors have had to shoulder such an unnecessary burden and have had to share their stories over and over and over again just so people might think, yeah, that's terrible. Just so people might care a little bit. I don't even know what to say at this point. Just the way the world hates women. Very eye opening. And we've seen this for the past. I mean, we've always seen it, but especially for the past 10 years, we have really seen that people kind of hate women more than they hate anything else. And I kind of did not realize that until 2016. And then I was like, oh, wow. Wow, okay. All right, good to know.

[Interviewer/Host]

I mean, what you're referring to, I mean, there's this very, I would say unique, but certainly a singular style of violence that this regime is intent on inflicting on women. And yet, to your point, it seems to recede into the background. We see it, we hear it, and then we move on. We've seen the erosion of abortion access that has made it incredibly unequal. Pregnant women and girls in ICE detention are being shipped to Texas and forced to carry pregnancies to term. Georgia has a death count of women who have died because they don't have access. You have people who are being held in these family prison camps, namely women and girls who go without medical care access and then pulling back from just the physical harm we talked about at the top of this conversation. Women have been disproportionately impacted by federal job cuts, by the rescission of DEI opportunities, and the list goes on. And so once again, as someone who is a self described bad feminist, but is still one anyway, and as someone who still writes and talks and thinks about what we need, what is the role of feminism today and what's its importance in how we meet these threats that are so intense and so intentional?

[Roxane Gay]

Feminism is needed now more than ever. And if you look at history, things have certainly been worse for women. They have. As bad as things are today, we know they've been worse. And especially for black women, indigenous women, Latina women, etc. But things are pretty bad right now. I I don't know that the historical lens is all that helpful when women today are losing their lives and losing their freedom because they choose to avail themselves of abortions, access. And when we look at the pay gap, when we look at what's happening to black women in the workplace, feminism is a reminder that we do have a framework for addressing these problems. We knew this was coming, and people didn't really listen to feminists. And even now, feminism has this kind of scarlet F that people tend to shy away from, as if it's just a little too radical and a little too heretical to believe that women are people and deserve equity in society. And so the role of feminism is what it has always been, which is to fight for women to have equity in society and to remember that we have every right to demand bodily autonomy. We have every right to demand that women are treated as people, that we are allowed to live our lives free from violence, sexual and otherwise, and that we're not going anywhere. No matter how much resistance you have to the idea of feminism and women's equity and equality, we're not going to stop, no matter what. And I think it's important to remind people of that, because so many people are like, oh, you know, we're in a post feminist era. And it's like, no, tell that to a woman in Georgia. We're not in a post feminist era. Tell that to a woman in Mississippi, in Alabama, we don't even have to go. Only to the South. Though I do think that there are some challenges that women in the south are facing that are particularly dire and especially like black maternal mortality rate, et cetera. But women everywhere are struggling, and we have to remember that we have to fight for these women. We have to fight for ourselves. And we have to remember that we're not all created equal. We have to look at our various identities and recognize that some of us are suffering from this oppressive climate in ways that others aren't. And a lot of times people don't want to hear that either, that it's not just that we're women, which we are, but the world doesn't treat us all the same. And we can acknowledge that without diminishing anyone else's oppression.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I think that's the piece that is so important in this moment. We've got the success of dei, which includes the success of feminism, the success of civil rights, the success of disability rights, the success of the LGBTQIA movement, that what DEI really encompasses was this moment and this shift towards diversity, equity, and inclusion. And As a result, we are now seeing the stratospheric rise of the manosphere and this red pill ideology that's shaping public dialogue. You know, in 2024, there are headlines that ask, you know, how do we lose young men to Donald Trump? Presuming that the reason was that women suddenly could read and go to school and get jobs and control their bodies and be free from the assaults and attacks they were worried about, but also could imagine lives that were not prescribed by Christian nationalist ideology and protonatalism. And so, in a moment when so much attention is focused on the grievances and the political leanings of young men, which I think is always a legitimate conversation to have, I would love for you to talk about how do we have the conversation about what is happening to young men without alighting the consequences of what's happening to young women.

[Roxane Gay]

Absolutely. You know, I have empathy for anyone who is suffering and I do believe that young men, but it's really young people. People like to say that, like, oh, the men are lonely, but it's young people, they're all kind of lonely. I teach college. These kids have been greatly affected by the pandemic, by the sociopolitical climate, by the economy. This generation does not have the opportunities their parents or grandparents had, especially their grandparents. And so a lot of the young men have the entitlement of masculinity, the entitlement of middle class aspirations, and they don't see how they can get from where they are to where they want to be. But it is not unique to men. And so I try to be open to those conversations. But it's so interesting that all of the sort of manosphere solutions involve basically imprisoning women so that men can be happy, instead of suggesting that perhaps young men should do some self reflection, develop some personality, engage in some basic hygienic grooming, etc. Like, these are just things that we do to be part of a society. And for whatever reason, these young men want to sort of just not have to do anything and not have to put in any effort, but also then get everything they want from companionship to a home to a well paying job. And it's not that simple. And so I wish that we could just talk about how many of these issues are not just affecting men. And so why are we prioritizing the young men when young women are struggling just as much? How do we help all of them across the gender spectrum instead of pretending this is a unique problem and that it's somehow more pointed and more important when it happens to men, it isn't. Now, I also think that there are some challenges that young men are facing that young women aren't. But it goes the same way in reverse, that there are challenges young women are facing that young men aren't. Young men are dealing with a lot of gendered expectations, a lot of toxic masculinity ideologies that tell them that they have to look a certain way and that they have to be providers and they have to be macho and et cetera. That's a lot, that's a lot of pressure and I don't want that for them. In the same way that I don't want pressure for women to feel like they have to be dainty and polite and thin and that they have to stay home to raise their children to be real women, that they have to have children at all to be real women. So it's a conundrum, but the discourse is very frustrating and I see it all the time. Oh, the men, the men. I'm like, the men are going to be okay. Like, despite these challenges, they still have the power of masculinity in a patriarchal world. Let's have some perspective here.

[Narrator/Reporter]

As a college professor, are you seeing

[Interviewer/Host]

signs of hope or signs of innovation amongst the students that you're teaching? How are they organizing themselves in response to what's happening around them?

[Roxane Gay]

I definitely see signs of hope. This is, I've been teaching for 20 years and this is by far the most activist oriented generation I've seen. In large part because they have to be, in large part because this is the world that we're leaving them. From the environment, to health care, to the economy, to immigration, to sexuality, gender identity, et cetera. So they organize, they are thoughtful, they are deeply knowledgeable. In a way that sometimes surprises me. They, they, they know what they're talking about. And not that they wouldn't, but it's not empty activism. And we tend to be like, oh, they're in college. Like, this is exactly when they should be doing these things. This is a great laboratory for them to figure out what works and what doesn't. And people tend to forget that every generation has activism. When I was in college and a little bit in high school, it was getting institutions to divest from South Africa because of apartheid. And we were deeply passionate about it and it worked. Eventually all of these institutions did divest. And now we're seeing different calls for divestment. We're seeing a lot of pro Palestinian and sort of anti genocide activism. We're seeing a lot of environmental activism. And of course, now we're seeing a lot of, of immigration protection activism. And so I do see a lot of hope in that. I also see some of the news stories that we read about college kids and the struggles that they're having. Those struggles are very real. The reading problem is real. They're incredibly smart. But many of them get to fairly deep in college without having read a book, a full book. And that's, I don't blame them. That's a curricular problem and we can fix that. And also, they, they'll get there where they need to be. But I see way more hope than despair among the young people. And also, they're just young. It's, it's fun to see, like, the things that they worry about. On the one hand, they're like, I'm going to a protest later and then I'm going to a kegger. And I'm like, yes, all is right with the world. That's exactly what you should be doing.

[Interviewer/Host]

More for my conversation with Roxane Gay after the break.

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by the National Urban League. We talk on the show about the issues that are reshaping black America right now. The way AI data centers are being dropped into black neighborhoods with zero community input, gerrymandered districts drawn to dilute our power, immigration policy that makes racial profiling legal again. And the black church, which has always been at the center of our organizing, is finding its footing in a new political moment. These are not abstract debates. These are the fights happening right now. And the National Urban League's justice now season two, executive produced by my Spellman sister, Jerika Richardson, goes deep on every single one of them. This is documentary content that connects the policy to the people living inside it. Real communities, real consequences, real demands for change. If you've been watching this show and asking yourself what accountability actually looks like on the ground, this is your answer. All episodes of justice now season two are available right now for free on the National Urban League's YouTube channel. Just search National Urban League on YouTube and start watching today.

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[Interviewer/Host]

Well, you know, when you and I are roughly the same age, and when we were coming of age, it was indeed the first Gulf War, and it was South Africa, it was Iran Contra. I feel like deja vu. What we are watching happening. We swap out Nicaragua for Venezuela, Iraq for Iran. Except that it was also Iran. When I think about what young people are being asked to do, they are also facing a level of pressure brought to bear by this authoritarian regime that has made universities less a cradle and laboratory for experimentation and more an instrument of the state for punishment. And when I talk to young people, one of the questions I always get is, how do I do this without risking going to jail or losing my scholarship? And what I've offered is, look, there are risks. There's the violence, nonviolence narrative that you talked about earlier, and I completely agree with you. Nonviolence does not mean the absence of

[Narrator/Reporter]

pressure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Nonviolence means that we do not take up arms and that this is not a pacifism. But there's also risk and sacrifice that are embedded in the kind of response that is necessary when we risk losing the soul of our nation. And as a college student, I risked being kicked out of school. I risked my grade. I did. I had professors pull me out and say, look, you're smart, but you haven't been to class in X number of days that we're docking your grade. And one of them had me actually count the number of days of class I missed. And I just kind of got to the end. I'm like, do you want me just go ahead and leave now, or do you want to give me the F?

[Stacey Abrams]

Like which.

[Interviewer/Host]

Which was the dynamic that works best for you. But I think one of the challenges

[Roxane Gay]

I see for the young people is

[Interviewer/Host]

the question of what does it mean to be an activist, to be in resistance, and how does that sit with sacrifice? When you're 19, 20, 21 years old, what conversation do you have with your students? About how to strike that. B.

[Roxane Gay]

A great question. And it's something that consumes an inordinate amount of my time, is getting my students to recognize that school is an obligation. You choose to be here. And there are policies in this class, and I try to be very flexible, et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, you do have to come to class sometimes in order to pass this class. And for whatever reason, this generation's fun. They tend to treat class like, I could go to class, or I could also use this as an available time slot to schedule a doctor's appointment, pick up my mom from the airport, like, whatever. And what's even more infuriating is that they're honest about it. I actually tell my students, lie to me. I don't need to know the details. But they're also, in addition to being young, doing all kinds of really interesting activism on campus. And I teach at Rutgers in the New Brunswick community. And I try to help them find a balance between activism that is critical and deeply important to them, but while also trying to impart to them that your education is. Is as important to you, that you have a future beyond this moment, and you have to invest in that future as much as you're investing in the future of our community as a whole. And so it's really just helping them figure out how to balance their time and more importantly, their energy, because activism takes a lot of energy. And one of the biggest surprises of my teaching career has been the way that institutions have turned against their own students. I shouldn't be surprised, but this one really took me aback. The calling of police, bringing police onto campuses for 19 year olds, really, like, wow, it's just weird. And to see the way that the Trump administration has engendered basically voluntary submission from almost every university in the country. Back to your first question. Like, this is really how fascism works. This is really bad. And so we try to talk through all of these things, and it's fitting for my class because I teach classes about media and feminism, and they tend to be writing workshops. And so the activism that they're doing kind of organically meshes with a lot of what we're reading and talking about in class, thankfully. And so I also try to make it part of the pedagogy that planning for your activism can be something that you take care with and deliberate deliberation with. And also, I want them to recognize they have not invented activism, that there is a really amazing lineage. Do tell, apparently. But I want them to understand that they are standing on the shoulders of incredible people. And, you know, with Jesse Jackson recently passing away, and certainly he's one of many, it was a useful opportunity to be able to talk about. Like, people tend to not recognize what he did early in his life. And he did some really incredible things, and I also did later in life, but sometimes we forget. And so to be able to remind them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Activists.

[Roxane Gay]

Yes. And a lot of activists started out as student activists, and the real ones just stayed with it forever. And so it's fun and it's complicated, but I do try to help them strike a balance. And also I tell them that rest matters and that you can't do it all, because especially my students of color, they tend to be in like 20 student organizations and they're like the president or vice president of all the organizations. How are you doing all of this and studying? Oh, okay, so you're not studying. Got it.

[Interviewer/Host]

I want to close with two questions. So one is, despite the horrors and the harms that are being inflicted on so many, they're important tools for resistance. And one is the rest that you just talked about. And the other is finding moments that bring us pleasure, that remind us what's on the other side of the fight. So what does that for you?

[Roxane Gay]

Reading for pleasure? I love to read. Always have, always will. I like to go to theater, live theater. Fortunately, I live in New York and la, so I get to see a lot of amazing art of all kinds. And that for me is very grounding and very centering. It fuels my creative practice. I have an amazing wife. And just hanging out with her, she's my best friend, she's hilarious, and we have a very cute dog. And so stepping away from the Internet and stepping away from. It's not stepping away from my beliefs in any way, shape or form, but making sure I have spaces where I can just relax and be myself and feel loved and give love in return is very restorative for me and absolutely gives me the energy to then come back to my work with renewed energy and a clear sense of purpose. Because when you get too immersed in the work and you forget to take a break and I wonder if you find this to be the case too, it starts to feel like too much. It's too overwhelming. And so I'm getting better at it. I used to not be very good at it, but I am trying to just remember all of the things we're fighting for are not going to matter if we don't have anything left to give ourselves and our families. And so I just try to balance it all as best I can.

[Interviewer/Host]

I completely concur. I read what I want, and I am a firm believer in television.

[Roxane Gay]

Amen.

[Interviewer/Host]

So my last question for you is right in your wheelhouse on Assembly Required. We like to give our listeners homework. And so what is one thing that you would suggest they do or read to help them overcome their potential sense that they may be bad activists?

[Roxane Gay]

That's a good question. The homework I would give people is go to a local city council meeting. It's so simple, but it's something that most of us don't do. Or even your HOA meeting. Like Communities Meet all the time, whether it's the library board, the city council, the town council, the village council, wherever there is a meeting of people in your area, I think it's really important to go and see how things are working on the local level, because a lot of the ways in which we can actually make change happen locally, and it happens much faster locally. And that, to me, I find that to be very restorative. And, you know, where I live in la, we have a city council member who I disagree with about almost everything. And I find it very, very healthy to tune in on zoom to the local meetings that this person has just to see, like, what are they up to? Because sometimes I'm like, is it that there's no one in this meeting who's going to push back or what? And you'd be surprised that you generally can speak up at these meetings and you don't know what's going to happen. But it's immediate and it reminds us that our communities matter, in addition to all of these very global and national things that we're dealing with. So I would just suggest go to a local meeting of some kind.

[Interviewer/Host]

I will just point out I was skipping class to go to Zoning Committee meeting. So, you know.

[Roxane Gay]

And that was time well spent.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Well, thank you.

[Stacey Abrams]

You heard a professor say it.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Professor Roxane Gay.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thank you so much for spending time with us today on Assembly Required.

[Roxane Gay]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Required is here to help us understand what's happening and then take action where we are. Because every decision to resist adds up. So first, let's be curious.

[Narrator/Reporter]

If you're on Substack, I encourage you

[Stacey Abrams]

to check out how to Resist a

[Narrator/Reporter]

substack that offers timely and very human

[Stacey Abrams]

examples of how to take action based on nonviolence, mutual aid, and community building.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And then let's do some good.

[Stacey Abrams]

When the headline recede, the trouble remains. Please reach out to your local food banks and homeless shelters and offer support.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The partial government shutdown is putting a

[Stacey Abrams]

strain on many families, as are rising prices due to the Iranian war and the lingering effect of tariffs.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We can all do something to make

[Stacey Abrams]

life a little easier for a neighbor in need. Assembly Required continues to grow its audience, but we need your help. We reach more people when you tell others about us Us. When you add us to your feed and share your favorite episode, make sure you actually subscribe on all of your favorite platforms, not just one. Boost our visibility by rating the show and leaving a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. Please also check out my substack Assembly Notes, where we dive deep and where I share more of my thoughts on how we understand and then fight back against this authoritarian regime. Well, that wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Do good out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thank you to Matt de Groat, Tyler

[Stacey Abrams]

Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mumtha for production support.

[Interviewer/Host]

Our executive producers are Katie Long and

[Stacey Abrams]

me, Stacey Abraham, Sam.