← Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
Stacey’s Post-Election Message and The Power of Music
00:50:57
Stacey offers a reflection and a call to action to move beyond resistance and into insistence after the re-election of Donald Trump. Then she speaks with Grammy, Pulitzer, and MacArthur Genius Grant winning musician Rhiannon Giddens about the connection between politics and art. Giddens dives into the way categorization divides the music industry, the deep and multicultural history of the banjo, and how she has put her unique stamp on every genre from opera to folk music.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
Stacey Abrams
This is Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams and I am your host, Stacey Abrams. And if you're listening to this podcast, you are likely reeling from the results of the election. I know that we are exhausted, we are profoundly disheartened, and we are rightly terrified. I've been thinking today about the fact that my siblings and I and my cousins, we were the first to be born into the Abrams family with the right to vote. I'm 50 and I'm one of the older ones, and yet that is a marker in our history. My nieces and nephews, the oldest of whom is 18, they live in the first generation since Reconstruction to lose civil rights. I measure those two things because I grew up in the South. I love my home. I love my region of the country. And yet for most of my adult life, I've been working to make my home state, my adopted state, my country love me as much as I love them. And it hasn't always worked. I look to elections, those times when we have to come together and ask for more of each other and our government, as a way to anchor me in the work that I do, as a way to push us to be better than we were the day before. And sometimes it works. Sometimes we get these giant leaps forward, the leaps that made the Voting Rights act of 1965 possible, the leap that made Roe v. Wade possible because we elected people who appointed people who could see us as human. But it doesn't always work. And sometimes elections like the one we had on November 5, those elections come around and we forget the progress that we've made and we only remember the pain. Well, I remember 2016. I remember inauguration 2017. I remember that the last time we found ourselves facing this set of dynamics, we sparked a resistance. It was a decision that was grounded in not knowing what was to come. We just knew what we'd been told and we saw what we could see and we pushed back. We railed against and as more and more evidence piled up, we organized and we persisted. And in so many ways it worked. In fact, for a brief moment, we united against racism and sexism, homophobia and ableism and those who would do any of us ill. We came together. And then it started to fall apart again, or so it seems. Because November 5th happened and they're back and they've written Project 2025 and they've used invective and insult and promises to tell us what they will do. And now we know what to expect. Unlike 2016, we know what could happen. Because we have a Supreme Court that said we're going to not hold them accountable. Because we have a U.S. senate that has suborned and supported and refused accountability. Because we have a president elect who has told us what he intends to do. And now we know that while millions agree with the harm that he has promised, we also have to remember that millions did not agree and they spoke up. But I want to focus on the 60 million that didn't believe their views mattered enough to show up at the polls. We need to be curious about why they didn't come. We need to be worried about what worries them. We need to lean in in this moment and think about the 60 million, not the 71, but the 60. Because unlike 2016, we cannot think that it is enough to just resist, that it's sufficient to persist, detente, just accepting what we have isn't enough. And so this time we must insist. We must insist on a government and leaders that respect us and our needs. And that doesn't just mean president and our federal government. I'm talking about the zoning committees that are forcing higher rents because they refuse to adjust. And the school board where your children or your neighbors kids are being denied books and the truth. I'm talking about insisting on speaking up when we see wrong or when we need more. No more polite acceptance or making excuses for prejudice. We have to demand better of ourselves.
- [05:29]
Rhiannon Giddens
And of our leaders.
- [05:31]
Stacey Abrams
We must insist on fighting for our rights even if we think we're going to lose because the record will show that we tried, that we filed lawsuits and lodged complaints and put TikToks out there if we still have TikTok that we had social media solutions that we shared and we made history report on our efforts. We must insist. We must insist on being more important than anyone's wallet or their wishful thinking that it's not that bad, because those who would sanction bigotry to justify profit or their own comfort should be held accountable. And we must insist. We must insist on holding power, even if it makes us uncomfortable and even if they tell us it is not ours to hold. We must insist on believing in our own power and the good change that we have accomplished and the change that will continue to manifest. Because we exist between elections, we exist between these moments, we exist between the harms. And we are responsible for making the good and making change. We must insist. And so on this show, every week, I will insist that we assemble the pieces so we can come together to build the world we deserve by being curious, by solving problems, and by doing good, even when it hurts, even when it's hard, even when it makes us uncomfortable. Because we must insist because we are right. This week's show is the beginning of our insistence it's going to be about music and how we use music to tell our stories, to protest, but also to push us to be better. And so I encourage you to lean in and listen closely. But we also want to hear your questions. What are you curious about? What are you concerned about? What are your thoughts on this election? And it's good for you to reach out now because we're actually going to have our next episode on the election.
- [07:42]
Rhiannon Giddens
On reactions, responses, and how we prepare.
- [07:44]
Stacey Abrams
For the four years to come. So I encourage you to email us@assemblyrequiredrooked.com and of course, let me know what's on your mind, what's on your heart, and how we can help. Thank you so much. Music is a powerful tool.
- [08:10]
Rhiannon Giddens
In an instant, it can change your mood, your perspective, or your life. The right song becomes an anthem that plays in our heads when we're screwing up our courage. For me, that's usually ludicrous. Or it's the lyrical explanation for the complex emotions caused by a breakup that sounds much better and much more profound when sung in four part harmony. No matter the motivation, music is an outlet, a force that builds us up or keeps us steady. It holds the capacity to move millions and to resonate with each individual. And every lyric, every note, every beat has the potential to share a message.
- [08:50]
Stacey Abrams
Women have used their music as a form of resistance for decades. Taking risks, refaming president, singing the truth, even when the world is telling you to shut up.
- [09:03]
Selena Gomez
I think music is one of the.
- [09:04]
Stacey Abrams
Most powerful ways to put a message out there.
- [09:08]
Selena Gomez
This girl is on fire.
- [09:11]
Stacey Abrams
That voice, of course, is from the.
- [09:13]
Rhiannon Giddens
Extraordinary Selena Gomez, speaking in a documentary that she and I co produced called the Soundtrack of Change. The genesis of the idea is simple. We both share the belief that music is one of the most effective transformative tools we have in advocacy and for women, it's been a formidable weapon to fight for visibility and for change, whether during elections or during protests that highlight the struggles in between. Music provides a roadmap of what's at stake and why our voices matter. On this show, we focus on how we can build a toolkit that can help us navigate the difficult spaces but also give us a sense of the possible. Like most of us, I have a playlist for each and songs that can.
- [10:00]
Stacey Abrams
Help me make it from one point.
- [10:01]
Rhiannon Giddens
To the next in this campaign. One of those moments was Stevie Wonder singing Redemption Song at a Kamala Harris event here in Atlanta.
- [10:11]
Selena Gomez
Song of Freedom is all I ever had.
- [10:18]
Rhiannon Giddens
As Stevie Wonder so poignantly reminds us. We know what music can do and that is inherently political with a small p. But this is an industry that touches so much of our lived experiences, and how we are included often defines how we are viewed. Indeed, the music industry itself is a construct of the society we live in, meaning it's not free of limits and it's certainly not free of inequalities. That's why when women or people of color are able to sing and sing louder to make themselves heard, it's worth taking note. Rhiannon Geddens is an artist who has consistently pushed boundaries, chafing against what's expected of her and against the constraints of the music industry, like its tendency to box singers into a genre.
- [11:06]
Stacey Abrams
Here she is in the documentary I.
- [11:09]
Selena Gomez
Shall Not Be Moved. Music itself is a great way to broach this topic of what is the story we've been told about America in a way that people can hear?
- [11:22]
Rhiannon Giddens
Randon Giddens is first and foremost a singer and composer. Her list of awards proves how multifaceted her talents are, though she's won Grammys, a Pulitzer, and the MacArthur genius grant, she founded the Carolina Chocolate Drops, where she was lead singer, fiddler and banjo player. She's released albums, written in an opera.
- [11:43]
Stacey Abrams
And hosted a PBS show.
- [11:45]
Rhiannon Giddens
Her voracious curiosity has led her to research and unearth the narratives of enslaved people across the US and especially in her home state of North Carolina. And she is one of the most well known contemporary banjo players, educating us about its history and its place in American music. I'm incredibly lucky that today Rhiannon Giddens also joins me on Assembly Required.
- [12:11]
Stacey Abrams
So for those who haven't, you know, stalked your career or haven't heard your origin story, you attended the very prestigious North Carolina School for Math and Science, and then you attended Oberlin College, where you studied opera at the Oberlin Conservatory. Well, you made this transition from the very structured world of opera to your very free range approach to music. So for a lot of folks who are listening, they're here because we're taking these big problems trying to figure out our point of entry. And one of the things that stop us is fear. So what was your biggest fear in making the leap from opera to every other musical genre imagined by man and woman?
- [12:56]
Selena Gomez
I wasn't seeing it that way. I was, you know, I was working a day job as most opera singers do right out of school. I was doing corporate graphic design actually is what I ended up doing self taught. But when I. The scariest thing was actually just making leap into full time music. And also the fact that when you go to opera school, I think things are changing now. But like they don't teach you how to have a career. They teach you how to sing, you know, the aria or the op, you know, or be die gracefully on command. You know, they don't really teach you how to, how do you build a career, how do you eat while you're auditioning? Like all of these things, you know, how do you best sort of parlay what you learned into something that will actually earn you money? And unfortunately in our society we ask our artists to be entrepreneurs and to, you know, deal with the economic world. So we're not particularly great at it. So that was the scariest thing. It really was. Once I found the banjo and sort of left the world of opera, but not forever. I find out later that was really the kind of, the scariest thing was kind of stepping out with that Annette and just figuring it out for myself. But it was the best training I could have possibly asked for. The opera world is very sort of regulated. It's like you audition, somebody else picks you, somebody else tells you where to do the show, what to do, how to do it, you get directed and then of course obviously your artistry, you are in control of that. But when you're a folk musician, I mean, it's like a lot of it is up to you. And that was a hard, that was a hard sort of start over. But it was, I've learned, I learned a lot and I've kind of used that time ever since.
- [14:42]
Stacey Abrams
So you just referenced the fact that you tried to abandon opera, but it found you again. Talk a little bit about that.
- [14:47]
Selena Gomez
The reason I left opera wasn't really because I hated it. It was because I didn't like the world so much. It wasn't really for me, I'm a barefoot, no makeup girl, as you can tell. And that world is very, you know, that, like I said, In 20 something years, a lot has changed. But, like, when I was in it, it was still very much kind of conservative. And how you could participate in it was very much, you know, in the hands of other people. But I always loved it. And so I kept, you know, kind of kept it in my mind and my heart. And then was approached by the folks who run the Spoleto Festival, which is a beautiful music festival In Spoleto, S.C. in South Carolina. In Charleston. And they asked me to write an opera. And I went, okay. And then I went, what am I doing? Oh, my God, how did I get into this? But the story they asked me to represent on the operatic stage was one that I couldn't really turn down. So that's what I generally do, is that I, you know, if the thing is right for me to do, because it's connected to my mission in life, which is, you know, uncovering and highlighting forgotten or erased African American stories, then I say yes. And then I usually have to figure out how to do it later after I've said yes already. So after I've committed.
- [16:04]
Stacey Abrams
So when I was in high school, I was talking to a friend. I grew up in Gulfport, Mississippi, before I moved to Georgia. And we were having this conversation about music. And I declared that I hated country music. And so instead of defending it or agreeing with me, she just said, why? And I didn't have an answer. So over the next few months, I made myself listen to every station on the FM dial for at least three days. And over time, I understood that there were this range of musical styles and genres that I'd never given true consideration. And it turns out that among the genres, I loved country music and folk music and bluegrass. But I also instinctively understood that these were not the same. And one of your myriad talents is your ability to challenge the boundaries of genre. So I didn't know you in 1989 when I was exploring, although you would have been a great guide. So tell teenage Stacy or anyone listening, what does it mean to be a folk singer? What does it mean to make a folk song? What are the defining characteristics, and how do you distinguish it from other relative genres?
- [17:15]
Selena Gomez
Well, that's a really good question. And I will say, to start in 1989, I didn't know any of this either. You know, this has been something that I've come to as a young adult. I was in my early to mid-20s when I started learning what I've now learned a lot more about, which is that. Well, first of all, folk music is just music made by people. And there's this idea of commercial music and popular music and folk music. And I think really it's what is the function of this music. And a lot of folk music has been written by folks to tell the story of most often people with not a lot of power, because, you know, classical and all that stuff kind of takes care of their aristocracy. But, you know, for those of us who are working class, folk music is that vehicle to tell our stories. And so you don't really get genre, like commercial genres until the advent of the recording industry in the 1920s. And that's really. I call it the great segregation of American music. Because before then, you had styles, you had, you know, local style, you know, like this. This is. This regional style. This is what they play over here. But it was pretty connected, and people just played and listened to what they wanted to. And sometimes it was rural themes, you know, that. That most people who were still living in rural areas, like the movement to the urban centers, is really, you know, that wasn't. That hadn't happened on Mass yet, especially amongst the black community. That was starting to happen with the great migration. So these kind of themes were really attractive to a lot of people. So it really is more like, oh, this is dance music, this is story music. This is community music. And then the music industry becomes a thing around the creation of the cd, the CD player, listen to me, the record player, cylinders and the record player. And then they go, well, we gotta sell this stuff. So how do we sell it? Well, we're gonna put it in a box. You know, we're gonna say, we're gonna go to these people, here's your music. We're gonna sell it back to you. I mean, it's kind of crazy, like, when you think about it, but I really think that that is really where our concept of genre was sort of initially formed. And then each subsequent sort of fight. You know, there's hillbilly and race records, there's rock and roll and R and B. There's rap. You know what I mean? It's like they keep reinforcing these divisions, these sort of fake divisions that they sort of tie to race. Even though really in the beginning they weren't at all.
- [19:38]
Stacey Abrams
One of the reasons I thought about that story when I was preparing for this conversation was for me that I discovered I loved rock music. And I found out I'm not A huge fan of heavy metal, not because I don't like the sound, but because I like lyrics. So for me, the sort of distinguishing feature in the music I like was lyricism. But you, what you just said is part of the reason I wanted to do this episode, which is part of the way we understand ourselves as a nation, part of the way we enter the field of advocacy is by seeing that we have a role to play. And this artificial fracturing, as you laid it out, of our music has an influence on where we think we belong. And you once said that blues, jazz, country, it's all the same thing. It's all coming from the same American well, of cross cultural, cultural collaboration. Talk to me about why, for you, this was a necessary, and I would say in this moment, an extraordinarily relevant.
- [20:39]
Selena Gomez
Statement, because it shows us, for me, American music in particular, right, Because American music is made up of the musics of people from all over the world. And it is a special thing, which is why people all over the world love American music because they can see a bit of themselves in it. So for me, it's like these divisions are deadly because they allow us to be separated, they allow us to be controlled, they allow us to be not empathetic to other people. By going, well, you're fundamentally different from me. Whereas the music, when you look at the history of the music, you take an instrument like the banjo, which is one of the reasons why I've used the banjo as an emblem of what I feel like is the American spirit, is that it's a great example. The banjo is an Afro Caribbean invention by people of the African diaspora who. Enslaved. Enslaved in the Caribbean. And then it becomes the absolute emblem of the white mountaineer. Even though it was an instrument that everybody played, that everybody played the banjo, it was massively popular through the 1800s, the 1900s, you know, and it's only like the last 50 years that we have this idea that it's only a particular kind of banjo and instrument and people who play it. But for me, it's like you have African invention, European ingenuity, and then this back and forth between all these different cultures, taking bits of the banjo and changing it, and it becomes this uniquely American instrument. And that, to me is how the music has come about. Because it's like, you know, whatever reason you ended up in America, whether you were coerced, whether you came of your own free will, but still from economic coercion, probably from your home country, you're living cheek by jowl with other poor people. And this is the music of poor people. And that's the thing that annoys me when people try to package it up and say, well you can't have this or that's over here. It's the music of people coming together. Because you don't have all of these genres, country, folk, whatever, you don't have any of them. Without cross cultural collaboration, you take one of the strands out, the whole thing collapses. So it's not all white, it's not all black, it's not all brown. It is a mixture. But we have to acknowledge the different strands that go into that because that's how we go. Oh, you don't look like me, but like I know that you know. All of our histories are tied together in this music.
- [22:55]
Rhiannon Giddens
Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Clean water, fresh air, our health, electricity. We tend to take for granted the things that matter most, like the separation of church and state. For more than 75 years, Americans United has been on the front lines defending your freedom to live and believe as you choose, so long as you don't harm others. But that right is not a given. Every day it seems like Christian nationalists are hatching new plots to force us.
- [23:30]
Stacey Abrams
All to live by their narrow beliefs.
- [23:32]
Rhiannon Giddens
Backed by a billion dollar shadow network, this vocal minority is pushing their anti democratic agenda everywhere. But here's the thing, you can make a difference. Join Americans United for Separation of Church.
- [23:45]
Stacey Abrams
And State and their growing movement because.
- [23:48]
Rhiannon Giddens
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- [23:56]
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- [24:26]
Rhiannon Giddens
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- [25:21]
Stacey Abrams
So one of the pieces of your story and how you engage music is that you understand music is not only entertainment, it's an historical record. It's a touchstone. And yet we continue to confront this debate about what that history actually is. And you've just given, I think, you know, a seminar, a master seminar on the history of how the lines were broken and how the stories got erased. But we're reaching this moment where we've got to start understanding our stories better if we want to figure out what happens next. So this is a very complicated way for me to ask what else do we need to do or say to make progress in getting people to both credit and understand how we've shaped music? And what does that mean for how we shape our country going forward?
- [26:12]
Selena Gomez
Well, I mean, for me, and this is why I try to. I started emphasizing the working class, cross cultural, collaborative aspects of this music. For me, it is understanding that as much of a construct that blackness is, so is whiteness, and that a lot of white Americans don't know their own history or they pick one strand. And this idea that when you go back, we're all poor, you know what I mean? And everybody's got a story. And the more that we understand that, I think the more that we can empathize with other people's stories, I just think that's really super powerful, that the idea that this music is where people keep. Kept coming together and then these genres come and they sort of. And you keep. You see it each time every 20 years, you know, it's like. And then people sneak over here and they sneak over there and they like, join each other's recording sessions. And it's just the history is all out there. These amazing academics have been doing this work so that I can sort of read their books and make gross overgeneralizations. But, like, that's my job as a performer because I'm a mixed race woman of the south, you know, And I grew up in the country before I moved to the city. I was like 8 or 9 when we moved to Greensboro. But like, before then, I spent all of my time in McLeansville and in Julian. And there's black parts of the country and white parts of the country, but gosh, a lot of it is the same. You know, of course, how they're treated by people is not the same. And of course there are, of course, important differences. But when you talk about the rhythms of life, you're talking about when you don't have any money, it's shocking how much of that life is similar and how much I recognized from each side. As much as there were issues, there's always issues. But I just think that I see, for me, I see that in a way that leads me to see how much we are alike and how much the differences are really, really paper, tissue, paper thin. But they are used in a way that make people think they're much bigger than they are. And I just think that music is something that is supposed to bring us together. Music is something that's supposed to heal us. Like when you think about the role of the musician, the artist, the prophet, the person who's supposed to see what has gone rotten in society, and they use their art, their poetry, their music to tell that, you know, and we've been doing that since time immemorial. So it's like, just because money is involved in music right now, like, excuse me, that is part of the problem and I think part of the reason why it's been hard to really connect to what music is supposed to be doing in our society because there's so much money wrapped up in it. And people are scared. They're scared to say things because they don't want to lose their jobs, they don't want to lose their. Their ability to put gigs on. And I get it, I totally do. So we just, we just do what we can.
- [29:10]
Stacey Abrams
You're not just doing what you can. You've sort of started paving your own roads. And one of the ways you've done that is where gender and race intersect. I had the privilege of spending, you know, a few years getting to know Jessie Norman before she passed. And, you know, there's a story of, oh, she's extraordinary. The story, for those who don't know Jessie Norman, she's this amazing opera singer, African American, from Augusta, Georgia. There's a story of Linda Martel, who is one of the first women to be a powerful black woman in country music. And then we can go through the litany where there are barriers and there are prejudices that infect how women can be a part of this cross cultural collaboration. And as a woman of color, how do you decide where you're going to enter a musical genre and what do you do to prepare Yourself for being uninvited.
- [30:06]
Selena Gomez
I realized when I first started actually really getting out there and being a working musician, it was with the band called the Carolina Chocolate Drops, which I created with Dom Flemmings and Justin Robinson. We co created this band that was really built around an elder's music. You know, Joe Thompson, who was 86 when we met him, an African American fiddler who was like, musical lineage goes back to the time of slavery. And so we were kind of his cultural heirs. His cultural and musical heirs are the people who played his music. But, like, we were the first, like, young black people to form a group around his repertoire. And so that's kind of, you know, catapulted us out into the world. But I was constantly surrounded by men and constantly had to fight being put in front as the girl singer, but not as the banjoist, you know what I mean? And I really fought that and fought that and fought that. And then I kind of got to a point where I just realized that I was reading slave narrative stories. And these stories of these women in particular were hitting me because I'm like, why don't we ever hear their stories? It's not just Harriet Tubman. There's so many important black women and women of color. And so I started realizing that's what started my songwriting, was that realization that I wanted to tell those stories. Like, we couldn't tell our stories in a way that, like, you know, say, British ballads are very clear, linear. They're very. They tell the story of whatever happened. You know, we couldn't do that because our lives were forfeit. So I started imagining, what if we could have. How would I write a folk song from the 1800s, you know, telling the actual story? And so that's what got me into writing anything, was wanting to pay homage to those generations of women of color who came before me so that I could tell their stories.
- [31:57]
Stacey Abrams
So for an artist who's listening to you, who has this burning passion that she's sitting on because she is afraid of losing the commercial success, or she's concerned that this is not the right space? When the. When the call's coming from inside your house and inside your head, what do you do to convince yourself to break through, to keep doing something when that's not the expectation people have of you or where the consequences of the songs that you write and the stories you tell could mean that you lose your job?
- [32:31]
Selena Gomez
My mom always said to me, don't do anything for money, property, or prestige. Like, you have to do it for your Purpose. You have to have a reason. And so I really held that close. And so within that. It's not just that you have to, I think, stay centered on why you're doing this. For me, it's very clear. I'm here. I was literally put here on this earth to do this work. And it is work. It is a mission. It is something that my ancestors have prepared me to do. I really believe. I believed that very strongly, the way that my life has rolled out. So that's what I stay on. So when something comes in, if it serves that, I do it. Now, of course, I have to think about, you know, how much money I'm making so I can pay people. I mean, there's always economic considerations, but they should never be number one. And so if you can't walk away from it with your head held high, don't do it. Like, if you do something and somebody says, all right, you're canceled and you can't go, you know what? I followed my conscience, and I'm. I will just. I'll need to do something else. That's fine. Then I think that. I mean, I've never been afraid of shutting everything down and just being like, all right, I'm out. Also, though, I pick my battles so that I can use the power that I've been given. I save it for where I think I'm going to make the most difference. I'm not really a big fan of just getting on social media and just going. I mean, there's lots of things I think that I don't always say. Then there's. Sometimes I go, you know, some people in that country, that strip of land that's being pummeled, like, they. Like some of my friends need to see that I'm speaking up. You know what I mean? Like, there's different reasons why I say things, but it's not always to try to make it make things stop, because I can't make things stop. You know, I can't make war stop. I can't make racism stop. But what I can do is use my art in a way that is positive, that is adding to the conversation. I could rant and rave every day of the week on my social media, but that's not going to do anything. Like writing an opera about a Quranic scholar from Senegal, right? That is doing something. And there's people who've given me the opportunity to do these things, to write these pieces, to. To showcase my songs, and people keep asking me to do it. So I guess for me, it's like, you got to know what story you're there to tell, why you're there to tell it. I don't do it for applause. I don't do it for the awards. Although I think I say thank you. I put them on my shelf. I'm proud to have them. But I do it because I'm here to do that. You know, I'm here to tell these stories and I'm just. I just. It's hard. And I'm not complaining because the Lord knows my life. I have got a good life, you know, but it runs everything. So it complicates things. But I'm grateful for it. I wouldn't be in the music industry still, to be honest with you. If I didn't have that strong center of why I'm doing this, I would be out, I would be gone. So I'm grateful for it. Even though it's hard, I'm grateful for it because it keeps me centered around the things that matter to me.
- [35:34]
Stacey Abrams
Thank you for those of us who are grateful that you stay here. Thank you. I mean, one of the reasons I was so delighted to have you as a guest today is because 1. As I mentioned in our pre call, I have followed your career since tomorrow is my turn. And I own your albums, both on MP3 and on CD, which is a topic for another episode.
- [35:55]
Selena Gomez
Yes. Thank you for leading the way.
- [36:01]
Stacey Abrams
But if you want to do a quick plug, buy CDs, because it's one way to make sure that the artists actually make money off of their music.
- [36:09]
Selena Gomez
Yeah, most people do not make anything off of streams.
- [36:13]
Stacey Abrams
Okay, We've talked about it before, but we'll do more. But you have always, you know, you've used your voice and your complex vocals to challenge listeners. I mean, one of the reasons I loved your music and kept coming back to it is that you force thinking. It's not just, I can turn on your albums and just like kind of fade. Yeah, listen, and you want to be there, and you're a little irritated that you're being confronted, but you're also grateful for it. And, you know, earlier this year, for example, you recorded How I Long for Peace, which was originally written by folk singer, I think, Peggy Seeger with Chris Matthews and the Resistance Revival Chorus. And you did that for National Voter Registration Day. Thank you again. And you did it in partnership with Joy to the Polls and Headcount.
- [37:03]
Selena Gomez
Oh, how I long for peace.
- [37:10]
Stacey Abrams
I.
- [37:10]
Selena Gomez
Cannot understand how sisters, wives and mothers cannot stop the slaughter of the husband.
- [37:21]
Stacey Abrams
Sons and brothers.
- [37:25]
Selena Gomez
Oh, how I long for peace.
- [37:30]
Stacey Abrams
You seem to understand at a visceral level why music is a tool for activism, and that's one of the reasons I wanted you here today. You understand that it's both a soundtrack, but it's also a galvanizer. And going again to origins, is there a song that first marked you because of its impact on how you viewed the world?
- [37:50]
Selena Gomez
I mean, to be honest, you know, my dad is. Well, it was. I guess he's probably not in any more given age. He was a hippie when I. You know, my parents were hippies. That's why they. How they met, you know, And I was raised with the folk revival movement, so not. It was like a commercial sort of regathering of folk music. And it was very popular. And so I would have heard, like, you know, where have all the flowers gone? And these sorts of, you know, Pete Seeger kind of things. And I think the song that I really, really like, I was a kid. Well, there's two songs, I'd say one was this Civil War, you know, the Civil War song of a girl singing to her. Her love. She's trying to convince him to take her with him to the battlefield, you know, and he won't do it until she finally tells him, like, it's because, you know, she loves him so much. And he's like, you know, and it's just, you know, just thinking about the people involved in these conflicts, like, so I'm a kid singing this song. I'm so into it. And then the other song is a Tracy Chapman song. Last night I heard the screaming, which is not what it's called. It's called the Wall, I think. But that's the first line. I like literally saying that. In my sixth grade talent show Acapella, it was mercy. I was mercilessly teased for this, but that's what I. That's how I was in the sixth grade, singing a song about domestic violence, you know. But the power of a song that will get you into the person who's singing it, the perspective, you know, in that song, it's like she's listening and she's hearing it, and she's like, that's. It's affecting her in this certain way. The power that music has, you know, to combine the words of somebody, you know, in that situation or listening to that situation with the music that then cements it into your brain and sort of like hits your, you know, whatever, the animal part of your brain. It's really powerful. And I do have so many songs that as I've grown older that are activist songs. I was kind of primed from a very young age.
- [40:15]
Stacey Abrams
I think behind the Wall is one of those songs that I love to sing.
- [40:20]
Selena Gomez
Behind the Wall. That's it.
- [40:20]
Stacey Abrams
Yeah, she's the other one. I buy one of the others.
- [40:25]
Selena Gomez
I'm in good company.
- [40:26]
Stacey Abrams
Look, I've got a group of folks. I've got everything. Brandy Clark, anything she prints.
- [40:31]
Selena Gomez
Amazing.
- [40:35]
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- [41:39]
Selena Gomez
Stars in Landman, the newest series from.
- [41:41]
T-Mobile Representative
Taylor Sheridan with Demi Moore and Jon Hammer.
- [41:43]
Selena Gomez
Landman is a modern tale of fortune seeking in the world of West Texas oil.
- [41:48]
T-Mobile Representative
Stream it now exclusively on Paramount+ head to paramountplus.com to watch now.
- [41:58]
Stacey Abrams
So Selena Gomez and I recently co produced and released the documentary Louder the Soundtrack of Change. And our goal was to trace the history of women in protest music and how we use song not only to tell our stories, but to call ourselves into action. One of the breakout stars in that documentary is yours truly, Rhianna Giddens. You are featured prominently in part because of your ability to connect those dots. You know, we profile nearly every style of music from R and B to punk to folk to rock and beyond. Why did you agree to be interviewed?
- [42:34]
Selena Gomez
I mean, it's the, it's the usual. It's, you know, something that's talking about something that's dear to my heart. So it's like I'm representing. I realize that I represent the genre, whatever you want to call it, the history, the era. I know a lot of things kind of intersect in me. And so I just want to be there for the cause and to try to tell the history of the banjo wherever I go. It's like literally my obsession because I just believe so strongly in the beautiful way that it represents a larger story of America. So any opportunity to be also with like minded people and to be put next to folks who are also doing that just in different ways, is. Was kind of irresistible. So I felt very honored to be asked.
- [43:21]
Stacey Abrams
So we're in the middle of this political moment. You mentioned earlier, what you talk about versus what you don't talk about. But how do you respond to critics who say that artists should just make music and stay out of politics altogether?
- [43:33]
Selena Gomez
I say, first of all, everything is political. Life is political, right? So this idea that you want to. If you want to talk about something that means something, if you want to talk about something that affects people other than yourself, then that's politics. That's an issue. You know, if they're using it as a derogatory term. So that's number one. Number two, I'd say they don't know anything about art, because that's art's job. It's literally in the job description of artists is to, you know, say the thing that is, say the thing out loud. You know, to say the thing that needs to be said in a way. Like, the thing that I love about what I get to do is music is universal. It's a universal connection that people, it disarms people. And that's why I get angry when people use music to divide, you know, because I'm like, that is the opposite of what music should be doing. Music is supposed to bring us together. I am an artistic director for the Silk Road Ensemble. And it's like when you see people from all over the world coming together and maybe they don't all speak the same verbal language in terms of non musical languages, or maybe they all speak varying degrees of our lingua Franco, which over here happens to be English, but they're all masters of their art. And the way that we talk is by listening louder than we speak. And that's what music gets you to do. So I just, I really, really think that artists are supposed to do this. And so when people say, shut up and sing, I'm just like, you have mistaken a commercial product for what we're trying to do. Like, that's not the end. That's not the end result of what art should be is a consumable product for sale. It should be something that makes you think. It should be something that warms your heart. It should be something that, you know, makes you cry. It should be. I've had people over and over again with varying degree, varying songs. Go, now I can cry. Like, it was like bananas when silk road just put out a record or is putting out a record. And the first single off of that, it's about the American railroad. And so we're telling the story of the different oppressed folks who actually built the railroad. So Irish folks and black folks and Chinese folks and all sorts of brown people. And the first single off that was called was swannanoa Tunnel, which is about the convict laborer that built the tunnel through that pass of the Appalachian mountains. And there was the cave in, and it became the song that became sort of a bluegrass standard and all this stuff. So that was. The single was two days after hurricane Helene when that came out, and it was like. And we still put it out because the whole thing was planned to put out. It had nothing to do with knowing that there was going to be a hurricane. But, like, then it became. It was a grieving song for the men who were lost in that tunnel collapse. But it became a grieving song for swannanoa, which was, like, wiped off the map. Somebody was like, oh, now I can cry. Or this is like, you know what I mean? Music, like, creates emotional pathways from person to person, from person to their, you know, innermost emotional self. We do the best job we can. So music is supposed to destroy all that. Like, it's supposed to just, like, skip all of the business and go straight to the heart, and that's what it's for, you know? So I think that's why I like to not say a bunch of stuff. I like to do it. I like to put it in the music. I like to put it in the opera. I like to put it in the ballet. I like to put it in the songs, into the music, into, you know, the art. And then that has a life of its own. A statement on Twitter. It's not to say that those aren't platforms that aren't important, but for what I'm doing, I feel like I'm doing it, and I'm just going to keep doing it as much as I can.
- [47:23]
Stacey Abrams
Well, the album you reference is called American railroad. It is coming out on November 15th, and one of the things we like to do here on assembly required are call to actions. In fact, we recently had an episode on extreme weather events where we talked about Hurricane Helene, Hurricane Milton and just the disasters and specifically what it means in terms of what happened in North Carolina. So what should folks who are listening do if they want to help out?
- [47:48]
Selena Gomez
Folks should go to the reputable places to see what is needed right now. So, like, if you go to your national, like red crosses and all that stuff, that's fine and everything, but you don't know how much of that's actually going to get to what's happening in North Carolina. And this is going to be months, years, decades probably of a recovery. So, you know, if you want to wait and see. Okay, what can I do later? You want to do some now? It just, it's, it's not a, it doesn't have to be all or nothing thing. There's a lot of places on the ground. Beloved Asheville, for example, the Blue Ridge NPR station has a really lovely list of places that they kind of continually update. The needs will shift. So I think just thinking for a second and not just donating to maybe usual places, going to finding one of these, you know, one of these websites like Blue Ridge, you know, the NPR Blue Ridge Station or Beloved Asheville and just trying to go, what is it that I can give here? What can I do here? Don't go there until they're ready. You know, figure, you know, just kind of like educate yourself about what people are saying about what they need because it is massive. I have a lot of friends in the area and the needs are huge, from like potable water to, you know, getting dug out of the side of a mountain, you know, getting property cleared to highways that are destroyed. I mean, it's just, it runs the gamut. So I just say always be aware of where you're donating. Try to get as local as you can and try to figure out what is needed in this moment.
- [49:25]
Stacey Abrams
Thank you. So, last two questions. So today's conversation and the reason you were the perfect guest was I wanted to talk about the importance of music as a tool for activism, as a tool for action. And as I said, we like to give folks a call to action. And you just laid out a beautiful one. When it comes to recovering from the hurricane and the storms, what else can our audience do to advance the work of music as a tool for activism?
- [49:52]
Selena Gomez
Our society is set up for distraction, for consumerism, for individualism. And so the idea of being collective, one of the things that music does is brings us together as a choir. That was the power of music in the civil rights movement in the 60s. In terms of the music, I want to hear people sing. I want to hear people sing. Every time in my show, I always end with something where everybody sings together, because that's really where it's at. You know, it's really hard to hate somebody that you're singing with, you know, that you're making music with, that you're agitating the molecules together and creating harmony. And, you know, the nice thing about a choir, I think we have to become. If we're talking about activism in trying to make our country a more equitable place for more people, we have to become a choir, which means when you're an acquirer. And I don't remember where I saw this. I saw this as a quote, and you run out of breath, what happens? You have to stop singing and pick it up again after you've breathed. But the sound continues because the person next to you is still singing. Right? So we all have to figure out what is our peace, what is our piece that we're uniquely, like, situated to help. And, like, sometimes we don't know what that is. We have to kind of. I sort of did that. I was like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna try this. And then when you find it, it's like, just stick to it. You know, instead of trying to be all things to all people, and, like, I lean into it, and somebody else's job is to rally the. You know, the folks. And just knowing where you. Your unique gifts that you've been given fit, and then creating a group of people whose stuff that they do kind of fits with yours. And the more that we do that, we kind of create this web then that can stand somebody falling from a building onto it. You know what I mean? We can all catch a little bit of that person instead of one of us getting smashed underneath.
- [51:49]
Stacey Abrams
You have actually given me fantastic response because. Rhianna Giddens, you are now the honorary director of the Assembly Required Choir. Thank you for your service.
- [51:59]
Selena Gomez
All right, let's go.
- [52:01]
Stacey Abrams
Thank you. Thanks so much for being on the show today.
- [52:04]
Selena Gomez
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I cannot understand how sisters, wives, and mothers cannot stop the slaughter of the husbands, sons, and brothers.
- [52:21]
Rhiannon Giddens
Each week, we want to leave the audience with a new way to act against what can feel inevitable. An opportunity to make a difference. A way to get involved or just get started on working on a solution in a segment we like to call our toolkit. At assembly required, we encourage the audience to be curious, solve problems, and do good to learn more check out the documentary I produced with Selena Gomez, Louder the Soundtrack of Change. It's available now to stream on Max. Enjoy the remarkable untold stories, the incredible footage and the unforgettable music and be inspired by interviews with really smart musicians and journalist all about how women in music challenge us and change the world. If you loved hearing from Rhiannon Giddens, then support her work with the Silk Road Ensemble and buy the album American Railroad when it comes out on November 15th. Go to silkroad.org for more information and you can help independent musicians earn more whenever possible if you opt to buy the physical copy and not just the download. If you want to do just a bit more, good plan ahead for Biscuits and Banjos, a festival Giddens is organizing in April of next year dedicated to the reclamation and exploration of Black music, art and culture in her home state of North Carolina. That's at biscuits and banjos.com lastly, we want to hear from you. What lingering questions do you have about the election and about what comes next? We're gathering listener questions and comments about the election and we hope to tackle that in the next episode. So please send us an email@assemblyrequiredrooked.com or leave us a voicemail or text us at 213-293-9509. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Meet you here next week. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Ilona Minkowski and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kirill Paulaviev is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton. Our theme song is by Vasilius Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt DeGroote, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer and Samantha Slosberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams.
- [55:09]
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