The Killing of Renee Good and the Normalization of State Violence (with Melissa Murray)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams

Episode: The Killing of Renee Good and the Normalization of State Violence (with Melissa Murray)
Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Stacey Abrams
Guest: Professor Melissa Murray (NYU Law, Strict Scrutiny podcast)

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses the recent killing of Renee Nicole Macklin Good by an ICE agent in Minneapolis, exploring how this act exemplifies the normalization of state violence under an increasingly authoritarian U.S. regime. Host Stacey Abrams and legal expert Melissa Murray break down the deeper societal, legal, and political implications, illuminating patterns of government mislabeling, misleading, and misdirection in the service of consolidating power. The conversation expands to the dangers of degraded legal institutions, the manipulation of accountability, and the ongoing assault on pluralistic democracy. The episode closes with practical steps for listeners to resist authoritarian encroachment and protect vulnerable communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Killing of Renee Good as State Violence

• Context: Renee Nicole Macklin Good, a U.S. citizen, was killed at point-blank range by ICE agent Jonathan Ross while dropping off her child. Her conciliatory statement—“That's fine, dude. I'm not mad”—preceded her death, now widely circulated as evidence of state brutality. [00:54]

• Abrams: Frames the killing as “step 7 in the 10 steps to autocracy,” emphasizing the role of state violence as a tool for authoritarian regimes to instill fear and compel compliance.

• Quote

  “State violence is a key tool for authoritarians. ...Its purpose is clear: It's a stark, deadly reminder to not resist, not protest, simply accept their demands—or face the consequences.” (Abrams, 01:14)

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2. The Three-Pronged Government Response: Mislabel, Mislead, Misdirect

A. Mislabeling Victims to Justify State Violence

• Authorities and the media erase Good's identity as a mother, wife, poet, activist, and citizen, instead portraying her as “a danger to America... a domestic terrorist, a criminal.”
  (Murray, 02:31; Abrams, 02:39)

• Quote

  “They do that because they want to cloak it in the specter of immigration as an evil, and therefore she was part of the problem.” (Murray, 02:46)

B. Misleading to Avoid Accountability

• Agencies and officials shift blame to Good, leveraging media narratives to suggest she caused her own death and to deter protest.

• The official count of deaths in ICE custody is obscured; at least five deaths are acknowledged, possibly as high as 32.

  “They have to mislead because otherwise we're going to demand action. ...They use it as an excuse to expand the assault, to convince us that her life was forfeited by her own actions.” (Murray, 03:38)

C. Misdirecting the Public’s Attention

• Broader atrocities—including paramilitary operations abroad—are downplayed, reinforcing the acceptability of lethal repression by framing it as protection of America.

• The goal is to distract from systemic abuses and expand the regime’s power.

  “They want us to forget who we are. They want us to forget what we believe. Because the goal of authoritarians is not to have accountability. It is to have unfettered power.” (Murray, 05:23)

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3. Demands & Pathways for Action

• Protests against ICE are essential but insufficient. Mass action must be “consistent, persistent, repetitive.”

• Local and state officials should pass resolutions condemning ICE violence, limit local cooperation, and introduce laws against masked law enforcement agents.

• Tenth Amendment advocacy: Leverage federalism to protect civil liberties at the state level.

• Congressional action: Pressure federal representatives to oppose ICE impunity and refuse to fund state violence through the federal budget.

  “Not because they're going to change everything, but because we must show that we're willing to do something.” (Abrams, 06:45)

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4. Legal and Institutional Disintegration

A. Compromised Investigations & Federal Overreach

• Minnesota officials are denied access to ICE shooting evidence because new FBI leadership (Trump loyalist Kash Patel) has seized control of the case. The usual protocol of federal-state-local investigative cooperation is abandoned.

  “Apparently we just want federal resources and they seem to know exactly what happened here.” (Murray, 12:39)

• On ‘domestic terrorism’ label: Arbitrarily deployed to criminalize dissent rather than to protect the public from genuine threats.

  “Now it seems domestic terrorism is just a catch all phrase for individuals who don't agree with this administration and make their disagreements vocal...” (Murray, 13:39)

B. Use of Force and Immunity

• Vice President Vance’s claim of “absolute immunity” for ICE agents is criticized as both false and dangerous. Legally, only qualified and highly narrow “supremacy clause immunity” applies, determined case-by-case in federal court.

  “The idea that there is some kind of blanket immunity... and they are entirely unaccountable, that just isn't true.” (Murray, 22:13)

C. Patterns of Impunity

• Incidents of brutality—ICE killings, National Guard deployments, mass detentions—are generating a “deadliest year in two decades.” Systems of accountability (civil court, congressional oversight) are undermined.

  “We all want enforcement of the laws. Do we want to live in a police state? Absolutely not. And the thing is, those aren't the two choices.” (Murray, 25:32)

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5. The Politics and Culture of Enforcement

• Democratic leaders’ “moderated” tone is critiqued as inadequate; true patriotism demands protest against injustice.

  “I do not understand... the moderated approach to use of force against American citizens who are simply seeking to exercise civil disobedience.” (Abrams, 27:46)

• Good’s killing is contrasted with the right’s reaction to the killing of January 6 rioter Ashley Babbitt, underscoring the regime’s “othering” strategy:

  “She is so othered by her objections to this administration and its tactics... that is enough to turn her into a race traitor.” (Murray, 35:08)

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6. Weaponization of "Fraud" and the Assault on DEI

• The administration exploits “fraud” charges as a means to target immigrants, the Somali community, and now diversity/equity/inclusion (DEI) programs—impacting everything from disability rights (ADA) to family leave.

  “Fraud's gonna be the major way this administration, I think, prosecutes its disdain for everyone who is not them.” (Murray, 36:41)

• Companies preemptively dismantle DEI to avoid costly “civil fraud” litigation, resulting in widespread rollback of equity measures—a chilling effect designed to avoid legal confrontation, enabling authoritarian objectives through intimidation.

  “They often don't even get to the courts... Sometimes they just issue these executive orders... and law firms, universities just cave.” (Murray, 39:55)

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7. Assault on Institutions: Federal Reserve and Legal Infrastructure

• Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell and Governor Lisa Cook face grand jury investigations and removal pressures, part of a bid to bring independent agencies under direct executive control.

  “All of it is at once about restructuring and consolidating power within the executive branch. But it's also about making this president look good.” (Murray, 56:14)

• Supreme Court precedent on agency independence (Humphrey’s Executor) is under threat; this consolidation is designed to permanently warp U.S. democracy into authoritarian control.

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8. Long-Term Project: Building Autocracy Beyond Trump

• Abrams and Murray analyze how Trump’s administration is building an enduring infrastructure for authoritarian governance that could outlast any single leader.

  “If the apparatus of government has been completely rejiggered so that what we say... doesn’t really matter... they can literally put an AI bot... in the presidency and just, like, be boring but authoritarian till the end of time.” (Murray, 61:07)

• The cult of personality is only one layer—real change is happening in institutional machinery and legal norms, much like the shift from Hugo Chavez to Maduro in Venezuela.

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9. What Can Patriots Do?

• Shift focus to state and local power: Build resistance in city councils, school boards, and legislatures.

• Direct action: Protest, public record creation, support for legal challenges, and community advocacy.

• Rethink constitutional structures: Begin conversations about amending or replacing aspects of the Constitution that enable minority rule and systemic inequality.

  “We really have to think about whether this is the Constitution we need... It is a Constitution that enshrines minority rule. Is this what we want?” (Murray, 66:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You see, we can’t protest because the secret police will target us.” (Abrams, 04:18)
• “Protests cannot be the only actions we take, because ultimately, the... regime is counting on us to get distracted, or worse, to believe we can do nothing at all.” (Abrams, 06:15)
• “Every officer who’s called out to a situation is being called out to deal with someone who is not complying in some fashion. They’re not all supposed to wind up dead.” (Murray, 26:05)
• “DEI is not simply racial issues, they mean all of it... There is nothing more terrifying [to authoritarians] than the body of law that includes all of DEI.” (Abrams, 41:46)
• “When everyone turned out for those no Kings marches, they were shook. ...This isn’t popular. This is minority rule in every sense.” (Murray, 65:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54 – Introduction to Renee Good’s killing and state violence
• 02:31 – Mislabeling and dehumanization of victims
• 03:38 – Media misleading and justifying brutality
• 06:15 – Pathways for protest and local action
• 12:39 – Breakdowns in investigative protocol post-shooting
• 13:39 – Politicized use of “domestic terrorism” as a label
• 20:02 – Use of force, immunity, and ICE’s legal status
• 23:31 – Impunity, brutality, and critiques of law enforcement standards
• 27:46 – Democratic moderation VS moral clarity on state violence
• 33:22 – Media & public reaction: Good vs. Babbitt
• 36:30 – Fraud as a political weapon against non-conformity and DEI
• 52:41 – Assault on Federal Reserve, agency independence, and economic control
• 59:32 – Bigger authoritarian project: Superseding Trump’s personality
• 63:14 – Final answer: what patriots should do to defend democracy
• 67:58 – Action assignments and takeaway resources

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Action Steps and Resources (from Abrams & Murray)

1. Be informed: Learn your rights regarding ICE (immigrantjustice.org) and best practices for safely documenting law enforcement (eff.org).
2. Engage locally: Attend city council/school board meetings, demand anti-ICE policies, contact state reps, and pressure Congress.
3. Support affected communities: Donate to the Envision Freedom Fund (envisionfreedomfund.org) to help those in immigration detention.
4. Grow the movement: Subscribe, rate, and share the podcast; check out the accompanying Substack “Assembly Notes.”
5. Rethink democracy’s infrastructure: Initiate discussion about constitutional reform and advocate for systems that genuinely reflect a diverse and democratic society.

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Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is urgent, impassioned, and deeply analytical, blending legal rigor (Murray’s precise explanations of law, precedent, and process) with activist framing (Abrams’ compelling calls to action). Both speakers use clear, accessible language, deploying memorable analogies (“heir of Slytherin”), historical references, and a mix of academic and colloquial phrases to maintain engagement and clarity.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

This episode offers a dense but accessible tour through the current convergence of authoritarian tactics in the U.S.—from hyper-visible acts of state violence to the subtle legal and rhetorical maneuvers that enable and normalize repression. It balances its dire warnings with concrete steps for resistance, tying high-level legal theory directly to grassroots action. If you want to understand both the mechanics and the menace of this political moment, as well as hear from two of the sharpest legal/political minds on the left, this is indispensable listening.

Further resources, links, and action items can be found on the show’s website and Substack.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

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[Melissa Murray]

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[Stacey Abrams]

Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. That's fine, dude. I'm not mad. Those were the words Renee Nicole Macklin Good, offered in conciliation to the government agent who would shoot her dead. Moments later, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, ICE agent Jonathan Ross shot her in the face in an act of extraordinary cowardice that was documented on the scene and. And has been replayed millions of times since the murder. This was a graphic, grotesque example of state violence. Step seven in the 10 steps to autocracy and Authoritarianism, which I've laid out in the ten Steps campaign. You see, state violence is a key tool for authoritarians. Its purpose is clear. It's a stark, deadly reminder to not resist, not protest, simply accept their demands or. Or face the consequences. And at this stage of democracy's collapse, state violence becomes a regular feature of government. And so, to normalize this horrific example of state violence, the Republican regime at various levels of government, not just the federal government, has quickly activated its preferred method of containment. One, mislabel, two, mislead. And three, misdirection. They begin by mislabeling, starting with who Renee Good actually is. In order to strip her of her humanity, we're told to ignore her identities.

[Melissa Murray]

That she's a mother, a wife, a poet, an activist, a US citizen. Instead, we're told to recast her as.

[Stacey Abrams]

A danger to America. A troublemaker, a domestic terrorist, a criminal.

[Melissa Murray]

They do that because they want to cloak it in the specter of immigration as an evil, and therefore she was a part of the problem, because they've already trained the broader public to discount the lives of migrants over the past year. You see, Renee Goode is not a wife And a mother who was dropping off her child. She was part of the evil scourge.

[Stacey Abrams]

Of immigration and therefore had to be dealt with.

[Melissa Murray]

And we're supposed to accept it because.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, we've allowed immigrants to be snatched off of the streets, to be caged in foreign prisons.

[Melissa Murray]

We've accepted that they have been denied basic care right here on our shores. We have seen it happen, and we've allowed it to continue.

[Stacey Abrams]

And therefore they think they'll get away.

[Melissa Murray]

With it because they have mislabeled who.

[Stacey Abrams]

She is and who we are.

[Melissa Murray]

After they mislabel, then they have to mislead. They have to justify Renee Goode's execution by blaming the victim for her own death. And they tell us to ignore the evidence of our eyes. Media is twisting itself into pretzels to offer excuses or alternate theories. They have to mislead because otherwise we're going to demand action. And so they use this not only as a way to justify what they've done, they use it as a. As an excuse to expand the assault, to convince us that her life was forfeited by her own actions. You see, we can't protest because the secret police will target us.

[Stacey Abrams]

And so we can't protest.

[Melissa Murray]

We have to accept what is or.

[Stacey Abrams]

Face the deadly consequences.

[Melissa Murray]

But they also want to mislead us because they want us to ignore the litany of death and injury that she now joins as at least the fifth known death since the administration launched its mass deportation campaign. In fact, that number might be as high as 32. But we don't know because they're misleading.

[Stacey Abrams]

Us, to make sure we never, ever understand. And ultimately the goal is to misdirect us, to misdirect us from what is actually happening around us. Let's be clear.

[Melissa Murray]

The United States States government now operates a masked paramilitary that is armed and believes it has the absolute right to operate with presumed absolute immunity. And what's happening here is part of what happened with the kidnapping of Maduro in Venezuela, the killings of more than 100 people in the Caribbean, and the.

[Stacey Abrams]

Bombing of Nigeria, which we seem to have forgotten because all of these are.

[Melissa Murray]

Proof that lethal force is a legitimate means of repression by this administration, by this regime, by these leaders in America's name. They want us to forget who we are. They want us to forget what we believe. Because the goal of authoritarians is not to have accountability. It is to have unfettered power.

[Stacey Abrams]

Renee Goode died.

[Melissa Murray]

We watched it happen.

[Stacey Abrams]

But the question is, what do we do in response?

[Melissa Murray]

Our response must begin with the ICE protests that are occurring around the country. But those protests cannot be the only actions we take, because ultimately, the Republican authoritarian regime is counting on us to get distracted, or worse, to believe we.

[Stacey Abrams]

Can do nothing at all.

[Melissa Murray]

But the 10 steps to freedom and power that I have championed require that we do something, that we all do something. But we don't all have to do the same thing. And in this moment, we have to work in our own ways to disrupt their propaganda machine with the truth of our citizen power. We need to engage in consistent, persistent, repetitive actions. Not because they're going to change everything, but because we must show that we're.

[Stacey Abrams]

Willing to do something.

[Melissa Murray]

And at the local level, that means attending city council meetings and school board meetings and demanding that our elected leaders make public statements and make rules rebuking this behavior. It means that we have to publicly refuse to allow ICE on school grounds, and we have to prohibit law enforcement cooperation with their raids. Your mayor, your county executives, they can't independently stop ice.

[Stacey Abrams]

No, they can't.

[Melissa Murray]

But they can offer resolutions that can anger the higher ups and stand by them. Because we have to create a record of opposition and a paper trail of.

[Stacey Abrams]

Morality at the state level.

[Melissa Murray]

Legislatures are now returning to work. If your sessions are starting in your state, ask your state representative or senator to introduce legislation outlawing mask law enforcement in the state. I'm not saying it's going to pass, but we at least have to put.

[Stacey Abrams]

The laws on the record.

[Melissa Murray]

We have to put our demands on the record. But if you live in a state where it might pass, then demand that your state leaders create legal causes of action that give citizens the right to sue under state law.

[Stacey Abrams]

Look, the right loves the 10th amendment.

[Melissa Murray]

On the side of progress, on the side of democracy. Let's try to use it for good for once. And yes, now is the time to call Congress, House and Senate.

[Stacey Abrams]

Democrat, Republican, Independent.

[Melissa Murray]

No more performative pragmatism from our federal government where they pass a Homeland Security.

[Stacey Abrams]

Budget that funds this assault on our liberties. The government will shut down on January 30th without a new budget or continuing resolution.

[Melissa Murray]

But we are facing armed, masked gunmen who are willing to kill us to keep power. So yes, it is worth shutting down the government to save American lives. To save American lives, though, we have.

[Stacey Abrams]

To value them regardless of documentation, skin color, gender or status.

[Melissa Murray]

Now, this Republican regime will tell us.

[Stacey Abrams]

That we are traitors if we protest.

[Melissa Murray]

But I promise you that now is.

[Stacey Abrams]

The time of patriots.

[Melissa Murray]

We are patriots because we know that our nation was born in civil disobedience. We are patriots because we know that we can do the right thing whether they want us to or not. That being able to non violently protest is the beginning, not the end. And that the demand of patriots is that our nation be what we deserve. If the death of Renee Goode does anything, it has to be to remind us that this is our nation and.

[Stacey Abrams]

We will not give it up. Joining me this week on Assembly Required is NYU law professor, Strict Scrutiny host and all around expert talker Melissa Murray. Melissa, welcome to the show.

[Melissa Murray]

Thanks so much for having me back.

It's great to be here.

[Stacey Abrams]

It is always a joy to spend time with you. Unfortunately though, we have more dark topics to talk about. And I want to start with Minnesota. We know that their state law enforcement says they haven't been able to access any of the evidence from the ICE shooting because the FBI has taken over. And this FBI, as a reminder, is led by Trump sycophant and former podcaster Kash Patel. Can you walk us through how an investigation like this should work where a federal agent is the suspect and talk a bit about what's actually happening?

[Melissa Murray]

Sure.

First of all, we should just say that Dan Bongino, Kash Patel giving all podcasters a bad name. We're not all like that. So I'll just put that out there straight away.

[Stacey Abrams]

So you're not applying to become the FBI director in the next administration?

[Melissa Murray]

I'm not, but based on what I've seen, I think I could and do a colorable job. But again, leaving that to the side, typically in circumstances like this, because of what we know as federalism, which is this idea that there are often zones of authority for the state and zones of authority for the federal government. But sometimes there are overlapping zones of authority. For example, in criminal law, you might have a situation where in a circumstances where there is a federal officer who has done something, there would certainly be a federal investigation, but there would also be collaboration and cooperation from state and local authorities as well. And you know, that's even more pressing in circumstances that are denominated incidents of terrorism. And we know that Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security Crispy Noem and has said that this is a situation that she regards as domestic terrorism. Like I don't even wanna unpack that.

But be that as it may, if.

It is in fact an incident of domestic terrorism post 9 11, the standard operating protocol for episodes of terrorism is to have collaboration between state, local and federal investigatory resources, because that way you don't leave any stone unturned.

Like that was One of The failings.

Of 9 11, the failure of state and local governments to collaborate with the federal investigative services. And they just miss things. And so going forward, we've decided that there has to be greater cooperation, greater collaboration.

Also, Minnesota itself may have its own interests here. There may be Minnesota laws that were.

Violated and they may have the need to perform their own investigative functions in order to determine whether or not they have prosecutions that can be brought or other crimes that they want to investigate. I mean, there's so many reasons why.

You would want all of the resources.

Brought to bear here, but apparently we just want federal resources and they seem to know exactly what happened here.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, I want to pick up on something that you referenced just because this is one of the few times where my writing and your knowledge come together in a really interesting way. So my very first legal thriller was While Justice Sleeps. One of my main characters is an FBI agent who heads up olec, which is what you just referenced, the Office of Law Enforcement Coordination, which was created post 911 to require that local and federal law enforcement that they actually coordinated, that state law enforcement coordinated because you miss information, you miss evidence.

[Melissa Murray]

Yeah.

[Stacey Abrams]

And the other piece that you referenced that you said you didn't want to unpack, but I'm going to push you on it a little bit. Is domestic terrorism, is that an actual legal posture in this country? Because we've heard it used several times in this administration. And yet what does it actually mean?

[Melissa Murray]

I think I'm old enough to remember when we floated the idea of domestic terrorism with regard to things like the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City or Waco or something like that. But now it seems domestic terrorism is just a catch all phrase for individuals who don't agree with this administration and make their disagreements vocal in some way or make their disagreements known. And again, I don't think it's helpful to just cast that term around lightly. I think it minimizes the true threat of terrorism in the United States, which again, I think is actually profound given the number of federal resources that this administration has let loose, because they don't believe that folks in the CIA or folks in the FBI are loyal enough. And we've seen so many experienced investigators just turned loose with all of their institutional knowledge just in the wind. Because this administration would prefer loyalists to people who are actually experts at their jobs.

[Stacey Abrams]

When we return, More with Melissa Murray.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

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[Stacey Abrams]

And then I want to dig into one other piece of this, which is the use of force conversation. The Vice President over the weekend essentially said there should be absolute immunity and we'll talk about that. But I want to lay the groundwork for understanding how use of force cases are typically investigated. And as you respond, I want you to talk a bit about the fact that ICE is not a traditional law enforcement agency. And if there are differences between their use of force standards versus, let's say the ATF or the FBI.

[Melissa Murray]

So when Vice President Vance made that statement about this particular officer having absolute immunity, and he said it as though it were a fact of law, it's not. I mean, certainly there is immunity, often qualified immunity for law enforcement officials who have done something in the course of their duties. But again, qualified is not the same as absolute, which is what he is talking about. Just sort of a broad license to do whatever you like that's never existed in this circumstance.

He is talking about what's known as.

Supremacy clause immunity, which is to say that federal officers, because federal law may be supreme in certain contexts here, immigration enforcement, they enjoy a kind of immunity from state level prosecution. So typically what happens if you have a federal officer being prosecuted by the state for something that has happened in the course of duty or outside of that duty, what you would have is a case brought in state court it typically would then be removed by the defendant officer to federal court. And then in federal court, a federal judge would make a determination about whether it was immunized conduct. And that determination is very particular, very nuanced.

You know, the court will decide from.

The perspective of the officer whether the actions taken were reasonable in light of everything. And that's a very sort of broad, sensitive discussion. It requires a lot of investigative resources because you have to figure out what was going on at the time. So, you know, it's taking videotapes that were garnered by eyewitnesses, the dash cam evidence that an officer might have, the body cam evidence, all of that.

And it really does, I think, require.

The cooperation, not just of federal investigative resources, but also state and local, to make sure you have as much information as possible in order to make that determination. If a judge determines that the course of conduct was reasonable in view of the defendant's understanding of things, and again, that's a very differential standard for the.

Officer himself, then it would be immunized. But the idea that there is some kind of blanket immunity and we are.

Just allowing federal officers to go through.

This country doing whatever they like, and they are entirely unaccountable, that just isn't true.

[Stacey Abrams]

And that leads into one of the predicates for authoritarianism, this normalization of state violence. And one of the ways you normalize state violence is by asserting that state violence is not only permissible, it cannot be held accountable. And I think one thing that feels incredibly ominous right now is the way this administration, this regime, has very intentionally escalated state violence and normalized it. I mean, let's think about it. We've got the National Guard deployed in our cities. You've got ICE brutalizing people in the streets, in their cars, in their homes, in their places of work. 32 deaths in ICE custody in 2025, the deadliest year in 20 years, in two decades, and in more than one case now, ICE shooting and killing people. And so you just described what checks are supposed to be in place to curtail this type of state violence. But what level of accountability should we be demanding? And is there any recourse for victims, their families, regardless of their citizenship?

[Melissa Murray]

So it's a terrific question, and you just sort of laying it out just shows how fast and far we have fallen in just a year. Which is not to say that it has ever been perfect. I think people of color in this country know that the prospect of state violence is always a hair's breadth away. But I think for many Americans, the idea that An ICE officer would shoot a white woman in the face at point blank range is, you know, not.

Only sobering, but really jarring.

And I think we're all at that point right now. You know, in circumstances like this, there are other methods of accountability. Again, your mileage may vary as to how desirable they are. I mean, there are always sort of, there are always civil remedies that you might pursue. So, you know, I always tell my students in criminal law this OJ Simpson was famously acquitted because the glove did not fit. But then Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson's family sued O.J. simpson civilly for wrongful death and they prevailed. And you know, like, whether or not they could actually recover the money that he owed them after that wrongful death judgment is a different story, but they got some measure of accountability. Is it the same as a guilty verdict? Is it the same as seeing someone who has done harm to your family member sit in a jail cell for some period of time?

Probably not, but that is one method of accountability here. We could also have congressional accountability if.

We had a Congress that could sort of come together on this.

And I have to say, I think some of the Democratic Party leaders in.

Congress and the way they have been sort of pussyfooting around this question is just deeply, deeply concerning.

Yes, we all want enforcement of the laws. Do we want to live in a police state? Absolutely not. And the thing is, those aren't the two choices. Like we can have something in the middle where we have law enforcement, but.

We don't necessarily have authoritarianism and people literally living in fear of the state. And you know, frankly, it's just been.

Shocking and a little disgusting to watch.

People talk about what happened in Minnesota.

As a question of just, you know, but we need law enforcement. Like, of course we need law enforcement, but we don't need people being shot point blank in the face. And you know, just side note, law enforcement, the whole operation of law enforcement is about dealing with people who are being non compliant in some way.

So I mean, the idea that she deserved this.

Every officer who's called out to a situation is being called out to deal with someone who is not complying with the law in some, some fashion. They're not all supposed to wind up dead. I mean, that's the point. They've been trained to neutralize non compliance or they should be trained to neutralize non compliance so that the threat can be mitigated, the individual can be contained, and the individual remains alive. I mean, that's what they do. So I mean, this whole idea that she somehow deserved it or she wasn't complying. That's what happens in law enforcement situations.

I don't know how to say that.

More plainly to everyone.

[Stacey Abrams]

No, I think you're not only correct, but I think your analysis raises the question of the lowering of our own internal standards. There is this moment where this would have been so shocking to the conscience that our congressional members would have not only roundly rejected this, they would have been in the streets this weekend. And instead we have the apologists who are saying, well, maybe there's a reason. And you have those who, again, what frustrates me is the sense of we just have to sound moderate. We have to have a moderated approach to this. And I do not understand, and perhaps you will either vigorously agree with me or you can give me an alternative. I don't understand the moderated approach to use of force against American citizens who are simply seeking to exercise civil disobedience.

[Melissa Murray]

We don't even know if she was.

Trying to exercise civil disobedience or if she was just trying to turn around.

Like, I mean, that's the whole point.

Of let's actually have a meaningful investigation. And an investigation at this point that is entirely handled within the scope of the federal system is not going to give the public the assurance that this was done legitimately, just like it can't, given everything that these federal officials have said. So, you know, I don't actually know what was happening. I mean, I know what I've seen. I might draw my own conclusions. But this is exactly why you have investigations, to suss out information you didn't know. Maybe there's a whole backstory for this.

Officer, I don't know. But it doesn't seem like we're likely.

To get a fair rendering of what his state of mind was when this was happening, nor are we able to get a fair rendering of what she was doing.

So, I mean, I think we know why so many people are being apologists for this.

I think there is some sense, certainly within the Democratic Party that they have to be firm on immigration, firm on immigration enforcement. And I get it, I guess, but.

We'Re shooting moms in the streets. Like, is this what we're calling enforcement? I mean, it seems like at some.

Point we've fallen down on the job.

[Stacey Abrams]

More with Melissa Murray when we return.

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I even got one from my guest.

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[Stacey Abrams]

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[Stacey Abrams]

So this weekend on social media, there was a compilation video that was floating around and it had Trump and maga, Republicans and others bemoaning the shooting of an unarmed white woman by law enforcement. And at the end, it's revealed not to be the disposition of what happened to Renee Goode, it was what happened to Ashley Babbitt. And I'd love for you to juxtapose the reaction that we're seeing and, and the defense that was offered of Ashley Babbitt's storming of the Capitol vs. Renee good sitting in her car.

[Melissa Murray]

I have no defense of Ashley Babbitt storming the Capitol on that day. I'm sorry that she was killed in that. And I mean, I think anyone whose lives were lost, the officers who later committed suicide, the officers who were hurt, it was all an incredibly regrettable, preventable tragedy that unfolded five years ago on January 6th. I think though, the difference in treatment of Ashley Babbitt and Renee Nicole Good by this administration reflects something really profound about what they're doing and the discourse with which they are doing it. And that is to say that ordinarily.

You would expect there to be at.

Least some kind of sympathy for this mom. You know, she's a mother of young children, she's in a Honda Pilot, she.

Is a white woman. But she is so othered by her.

Objections to this administration and its tactics.

And we don't even know like the.

Nature of her objections. Like, you know, according to one video, she's telling the officer that she doesn't hate him. And she's, you know, like, like whatever.

But the fact that she's willing, or.

Seems willing in this moment because we don't know exactly what has happened, seems willing to stand up to what is going on. And she's there to defend her neighbors who may be unfairly targeted by ice, many of whom may be American citizens, because as we know from these Kavanaugh stops, no one is sitting around trying to figure out how to distill between individuals who are unlawfully here and those who are citizens but just happen to be people of color.

But the fact that she objects, that is enough to turn her into a.

Race traitor, almost to make her a traitor to this administration, to this project.

To this understanding of nation building and the way that they have painted her and literally dismantled her humanity, I think.

Is a consequence of that other rising.

[Stacey Abrams]

One of the conversations you lifted up earlier was the issue of what we're willing to investigate, what the federal government has decided is worthy of knowing. And last week, J.D. vance, Vice President, announced that the Justice Department, which should be a neutral arbiter of truth, has created a new position to investigate fraud nationwide, ostensibly still stemming from Minnesota. Although I've not heard them talk about the fact that in Mississippi, the former governor, Brett Favre and others are also accused of engaging in widespread fraud. And then you, of course, have our sitting senator from Florida who committed the largest fraud against Medicaid or Medicare in American history. But that notwithstanding, don't let that get.

[Melissa Murray]

In the way of a good time.

[Stacey Abrams]

So what can you tell us about the way this issue of fraud is being politicized and leveraged? And, you know, because this is a theme, the hypocrisy embedded in how this administration is responding.

[Melissa Murray]

So get ready, America. Fraud's gonna be the major way this administration, I think, prosecutes its disdain for everyone who is not them.

So we saw a little bit of.

This in the presidential campaign. I mean, I think one of the ways that you see it, maybe not explicitly, but you can sort of connect up the dots, is that really powerful ad that turned out to be so effective for them. You know, Kamala is for they. Them. Right. The idea here was that there were scarce public resources, and Kamala Harris was willing to use them on this population of people. And. And we don't even know what their real gender identities are. Like, they could be defrauding all of us. They're basically gender frauds is sort of the underlying idea here. So that's one place where I think you've seen it, and I think they are playing it out in lots of ways. Like this idea that there is stuff and it's for Americans, but other people who are not Americans or just not part of this project are somehow bilking us of it. And then I say us, but, like, I'm sure I don't count as an American for this project, but bilking them of all of this stuff. So you see the way that it's being played out in the context of Minnesota and it's being deployed against these Somali immigrants. So, you know, there's some evidence of fraud during the pandemic, although there was a lot of fraud during the pandemic, and it was done by lots of different people. But the entire Somali community in Minnesota is being painted with this broad brush of criminality, like they're all fraudsters. They all have to be expelled, they all have to be punished. So that's one aspect of it. J.D.

Vance did not mention this, though he could have.

One of the things the Department of Justice is doing is using its Civil Fraud Division to now address and investigate the use of DEI in private companies. And the idea here is that if you are a private company and you.

Are in receipt of federal funds or.

You have a federal contract, you have an obligation under Title 6 of the Civil Rights act not to engage in racial discrimination. But if you have a DEI program, according to this administration, you are engaged in racial discrimination. And so rather than taking you on as a violation of Title six, and I think because it would be hard to read Title 6 in that way.

They'Ve decided to come at it from.

A different angle, which is to say that your receipt of federal frauds in light of your violation of Title six is fraudulent. So we are going to see a.

Bunch of companies, big companies, small companies.

Essentially, either shutter their DEI programs or face these fraud charges. And it's all bunk. I mean, like the idea that our consumer protection statutes would be used for this purpose, our government protection, like the protection of government resources, would be used for this purpose, the statutes intended to do that is absolutely bonkers.

But there will be enough corporations large and small that just don't want this.

Smoke and will close it all up rather than have to deal with the Justice Department about it.

And that's the point. I think one thing we cannot say.

Loud enough about what we have learned one year on from this administration is.

That they do win in the courts sometimes.

And we can talk about that, but.

They often don't even get to the courts. Like, we saw this with the law.

Firms and the university. Sometimes they just issue these executive orders.

That have very tenuous legal grounding, and law firms, university, just cave and give them what they want and they call it settlements.

That's not a settlement.

Like a settlement, at least happens in.

The shadow of law. This is just happening in the shadow of what this president thinks.

And it's just that people, people don't want to deal with it.

Like it is cumbersome to address it may be costly to deal with it.

Fighting it is not worth it. And so they just capitulate. And that is how he wins.

[Stacey Abrams]

And that pre compliance is so incredibly dangerous in this broader context. Because I want to remind our listeners, DEI is absolutely grounded in issues of Racial justice. But it also includes the Family Medical Leave act, which was designed for women and for people who need to take care of family members. It includes the Americans with Disabilities Act. So the disabled have been disproportionately harmed by the attacks on dei. That's why a number of veterans have lost access to resources and jobs. It applies to labor standards. When they say dei, they do not simply mean racial issues, they mean all of it. They are adamantly opposed to diversity, meaning all people, equity, meaning fair access to opportunity and inclusion, which means respect for belonging. And just in case we're confused, I'd love to talk to you about the New York Times article that came out where the President of the United States bemoans the civil rights era laws, which include not only Voting Rights act and the Civil Rights act, but the follow on laws that expanded access to American citizenship and American democracy to millions of people who were not white men with money. Can you talk a little bit about why?

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Sure.

[Stacey Abrams]

And if you agree with me, I think DEI is under such aggressive attack because it is the central pillar of a pluralistic democracy. And if you're an authoritarian bent on white supremacy and Christian nationalism, there is nothing more terrifying than the body of law that includes all of dei.

[Melissa Murray]

So first, let's just say a little bit about that New York Times article. And I want to just give a shout out to the New York Times reporter Erica Green, who had to report this. Girl, I hope you got hazard pay for having to write this up. You did everyone a service. But I know that there was a psychic injury in having to report this. He's basically saying the quiet part out loud. The objections, the antipathy to DEI is the cornerstone of this administration. It is why this administration has been so vociferous in its objections to immigration. But welcome South African farmers into the United States under asylum programs where they will not welcome people from other parts of the world, black and brown parts of the world, who may also be facing threats. Also, we might question whether in fact the threats to South African farmers are as pronounced as the administration says in that special asylum program. Leaving that to the side, though they have real issues with dei. They assume that DEI is invariably correlated with the absence of merit. And I just find this argument smacks of white supremacy. And I'm going to say exactly why.

We'Ve slowly, over the last 20 years.

Chipped away at the entire affirmative action project. And to be clear, affirmative action programs began in the federal government and the executive during the Kennedy administration. It was basically, hey, we have a.

Bunch of federal contractors. And guess what?

We been discriminating against women and people.

Of color for years. So we're basically going to say that, you know, when you have seven different federal contracts, you gotta at least, you.

Know, have one person of color, one woman interview for them.

Like, really modest measures to just simply.

Open the door to people who historically had been included.

Same for colleges.

I mean, you know, you and I went to Yale Law School. It wasn't like Yale was an hbcu. Like, it wasn't.

I mean.

Right.

[Stacey Abrams]

We know the names of every person with merit.

[Melissa Murray]

We know everyone who is in our.

Class, and everybody was in the class above us.

I mean, like, it just.

The idea is absolutely ludicrous. But the way this is playing out right now and the way they talk.

About merit, it's like, you know, we.

So streamline the use of diversity and like, race considerations, gender considerations, and it's still not enough.

Because what they really want is no one. Because they genuinely believe that any person.

Of color, any consideration of race somehow detracts from merit.

Like, they just cannot even conceive there is one black person walking around who could be as good, who could compete. I mean, and that's not about merit. That's about white supremacy.

That's about racial hierarchy. And so, like, if you don't get that, I don't know what to say to you. Also about racial hierarchy and white supremacy and not really about merit, is the.

Fact that for 200 years, you had these guys who basically had an artificially limited pool of competition. Like, they were only competing against other guys like themselves. Like, they didn't have to compete against any women.

They didn't have to compete against any people of color.

And they thought that was merit. Like, you, you weren't playing on the field with all of the available players. I mean, like, they tell us themselves constantly, I mean, it's not about merit.

It's about hoarding resources. It is about racial hierarchy. And the sooner we all just understand that that's what they're dealing with, the better. The other thing I think this is about is goes back to 2020 and the racial reckoning over George Floyd's murder. And I think this really explains why they have gone after higher education so forcefully in the wake of George Floyd.

I think they were deeply, deeply shook.

At the prospect of white millennials, white gen zers in arms with their black and brown friends marching for justice. And I think it really shook them because I think for the most part.

Our lives are really segregated. And the way you know, this is.

Go to a wedding, go to someone's wedding whenever you go. Whenever I go to a wedding of a friend, like someone usually I've met in college or at work, I've noticed.

That their friends, their family groups, it's all pretty homogenous. Where the diversity comes in is when.

You start meeting the college friends, the grad school friends, the friends from work.

We live homogenous lives until we go.

To college or grad school or go to work.

And then that is when we come.

Into contact with people who are not like us, who are not raised in the same, same circumstances as we were.

And that is largely because of federal.

Laws like the Civil Rights act, like the laws that have required the integration of educational institutions and employment sectors. That's why we're able to do that.

And it builds empathy. You get to meet people, you get to see a whole different side of things that maybe you didn't understand before and now you do. And it might lead you to empathize with these other people, to understand things.

From their point of view.

And when one of them or someone.

Who looks like them is gunned down.

In the streets, you may be bestirred.

To go out and march with your friends of color. And that's what I think they are trying to prevent, that kind of empathy, that kind of bridge building the idea that we would ever have cross cultural, cross racial understanding.

And I think they're working at it right now. I mean, I think these schools are.

Getting more and more homogenous.

And I don't even know what else to say about it.

But y' all are gonna have, I.

Think, much less interesting lives because of it. You definitely won't learn the electric slide.

Your wedding is not going to be lit.

[Stacey Abrams]

Much more when we come back.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

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[Stacey Abrams]

So when we spoke last year around this time, we were beginning to grapple with the assaults on government, on civil liberties, on our own sense of reality. And we've now entered what feels like phase two. You know, they've laid the groundwork for authoritarianism and it's now time to really build the infrastructure. And part of that has been the aggressive assault on the Federal Reserve bank and would love to set up a clip and have you respond to that.

[Jerome Powell]

On Friday, the Department of justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas threatening a criminal indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. This unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President.

[Stacey Abrams]

So this is Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, talking about a grand jury indictment or a grand jury investigation that has not yet yielded an indictment. But this happens in the context of the Supreme Court case that will be coming up in a few weeks that seeks to remove Fed governor Lisa Cook from her position. And it all speaks to trying to change the way the American economy operates. Jerome Powell and Lisa Cook may be the face, but this feels to me like an infrastructure play where they're trying to fundamentally change how America works and would love to get your reaction to what we think is going to happen next and why this is so important to follow.

[Melissa Murray]

So I agree with you that I do think it is a play to fundamentally restructure the infrastructure of government, particularly within the executive branch. But I don't think that's all it is. So the legal question here is about the President's constitutional authority to remove officers of multi member agencies. And this has been an issue since Franklin Roosevelt. You know, like Congress creates these multi member agencies like the Federal Trade Commission, the Federal Reserve, and they're meant to operate independently of politics. Like so they're not supposed to be buffeted by politics. So they're often bipartisan. The President may get to appoint some members, but not all members. And they all have staggered terms. So, you know, you never have political control because they are commissions that are meant to operate with the underlay of expertise. That's really what's supposed to guide this, not politics. Franklin Delano Roosevelt had a commissioner of the Federal Trade Commission he didn't like so much. He wanted him out. And instead of just waiting for his term to elapse like a normal person might, he decided to just remove him without cause. Like you can often remove these people if you have cause, like they've done something wrong, like gross negligence of their duties, malfeasance, whatever. But that hadn't happened here. But he tried to remove him. The guy began a lawsuit against Franklin Roosevelt. He died in the middle of it, but his estate continued it. And in the end, Humphrey's Executor versus the United States was a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court in 1935 that.

Said that Congress has the authority to.

Insulate the members of multi member commissions.

From being unceremoniously removed by the President without cause.

Right.

And this has been the precedent for.

As long as I remember it, certainly since 1935. It's now on the chopping block as this President has sought to remove the members of a number of different agencies. The National Labor Relations Board, the Federal Trade Commission, Rebecca Slaughter, the Merit Systems Protection Board, and now Lisa Cook with the Federal Reserve. The Supreme Court has chipped away at Humphrey's executor over the years, but it's.

Always kind of remained retained, it's always.

Retained this posture that somehow the Federal Reserve is different. Why is it different? They never say. I suspect it's because all of the Justices are relatively wealthy and have investment accounts and they don't want the Fed to tank.

And you saw anything that goes on around the personnel of the Fed has the power to shake up the markets.

When this investigation of Jerome Powell was announced, the markets dipped precipitously.

So this is a big deal right now.

There are two cases pending before the Supreme Court. One, Trump versus Slaughter, which is about the removal of a Federal Trade Commission commissioner, Rebecca Slaughter. And then there is also Trump versus Lisa Cook, which is supposed to be argued in a couple of. I think it's this week.

Even the fact that the administration is.

Doing this to Jerome Powell. As the court is preparing to hear what oral argument in Lisa Cook's case.

Is such clear evidence.

They are in full DGAF mode. I mean, this is Sheree Whitfield from the Real Housewives of Atlanta who gone check me, boo. Like they don't care. They have, like, zero Fs in the tank. They don't care.

If you cared, you wouldn't be doing.

This right before the court takes up Lisa Cook's case.

And all of it is at once about restructuring and consolidating power within the executive branch.

But it's also about making this president look good. He ran on an affordability platform that.

He has done precious little to actualize.

In the years since he's been in office. His tariffs are a disaster. That basically are just taxes that we're all paying.

And what would help is if people could just buy homes like they used.

To without having large interest rates.

And so he wants the Federal Reserve.

To lower the rates. The Fed, in their expert opinion, doesn't think this is a good idea.

So he wants to get them out. He wants Lisa Cook out.

And I think the antipathy for Lisa Cook is also because she is the first black woman to ever serve as a governor of the Federal Reserve. Because there are going to be vacancies. Like, he will have an opportunity to appoint another Fed governor. So I think he's kind of just like sticking it to her.

But Powell's term as chair is up in May.

He will be stepping down from that position. He'll still be on the Fed board, but he won't be the chair of it. There will be an opportunity to appoint other governors and maybe to capture the Fed entirely and lower interest rates.

But they wanna do it right now because they need to do it right.

Now, because otherwise they cannot jook the numbers for the midterms and win.

[Stacey Abrams]

I think that's accurate, and I think it's important for us to be able to hold both of those concepts at once.

[Melissa Murray]

That much, yes. Two things can be true at once.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah. So the President Trump and his acolytes are doing their best to survive November midterm, but at the exact same time, there's also the sort of the machinations happening behind the scenes. The Stephen Millers, the Russell votes, the Peter Thiels, the people who are trying to restructure America fundamentally. And one example for me is President Trump did this interview with the New York Times last week where he spoke about his actions in Venezuela and his threats against Greenland, where he essentially renounced international law and he jettisoned the idea that even Congress or the judiciary could hold him accountable. And of course, the outrage poured forth on cue and necessarily so. And the reason I'm pushing this is because my deep worry is that we are all so focused on him that we're not attending fully to what's being constructed or around him. And I think about the fact that Hugo Chavez has been dead for a decade, Nicolas Maduro inherited his regime and put it on steroids that the economic populist who comes to power is not the end of the story. And so, as a lawyer who just really thinks deeply about these things, I'd love for you to speculate about what's happening around him and what should concern us in a post Trump America. And I want to frame it by saying a lot of folks have entered 2026 as though the mission is to survive Trump in the midterms and then get back to normal in 2028. I don't think that's possible because of how they are reshaping the presidency and how the courts in particular are reshaping this into an imperial presidency. But would love to have you think about and talk about that a bit.

[Melissa Murray]

So I will just say at the top, we did an amazing episode of strict scrutiny. It was our first episode of this new year with Kim Lane Shepley of Princeton University. She is an amazing scholar of authoritarianism and she kind of laid it out. What's, what's going on. And it's exactly as you say.

I mean, like, I think you're right.

Two things can be true. It can be about the short term interest in lowering interest rates and making it look like there's affordability. In true Wire fashion, it can be about jooking the numbers, but it is also, as you say, a long term play about completely restructuring this so that we will never have a real democracy again. That power will be so consolidated in the executive branch, in folks like Russell Vaught, like Pete Hegseth, but mostly Russell Vaught that we will never be able to unwind this. And I think that is the real folly of the Democratic Party right now.

To assume that this is merely a cult of personality and that once you get past Donald Trump, there's no one like him. And I think they are right that.

Donald Trump is a singular figure. I don't know that there is someone in his orbit right now who is as charismatic and as accessible to the populist cause in the way that he is.

But I also think it won't matter.

If the apparatus of government has been completely rejiggered so that what we say or what other people say doesn't really matter.

Like, if they consolidate their authority, they can literally put an AI bot who.

Looks like Russell vote in the presidency and just, like, be boring but authoritarian till the end of time.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Great.

[Stacey Abrams]

You're giving them something else to build. Wonderful.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, the one thing that may give us pause, maybe hope, is that there.

Does seem to be a fair amount of internecine warfare within the inner circle about who is the heir. I mean, like, who is the heir of Slytherin?

You know, is it JD Vance?

Is it Marco Rubio? I mean, I think it was really interesting that JD Vance was nowhere in the skiff that was not a skiff when they were bombing Venezuela.

They may claw each other to the.

Death to be the heir, but that might just leave room for someone like Russell Vought to sort of emerge unscathed as the heir of Slytherin.

[Stacey Abrams]

And that's my worry, because one of the reasons I use Chavez versus Maduro is that Hugo Chavez was charismatic, he was compelling, he was beloved for a very long time. Maduro is fairly roundly reviled, but he still holds power. And my concern is that we spend so much time focused on the cinema of this moment that we're ignoring the construction and what that looks like. And so to that end, you know, at the top of the show, I reminded our audience that the goal of this regime is to mislabel, mislead, and then misdirection, because ultimately their ambition is power. And that power cannot have accountability. And one thing that you and your colleagues on strict scrutiny do so extraordinarily well is explain to us what the law tells us should be, which is a reminder of what we said our country should be. So my question to you, Melissa Murray, what is it that you would ask patriots to do in this coming year to protect and save America from all that is coming our way?

[Melissa Murray]

All right, so I've always been something of an institutionalist I think I'm becoming less institutionally minded as this progresses. They have captured the Supreme Court. I don't know what else to say about it but that. And once captured, the court is in a position to do some real damage because they have so much power to interpret the Constitution. I don't think people just say things like read the Constitution. I'm like, well, I've read it. It's not straightforward all the time. Like there's a lot of sort of broad brushstrokes and things that can be interpreted a lot of ambiguity.

And I think they're making the most.

Of that right now.

Even questions that we thought were settled.

Like whether Congress can insulate the members of multi member commissions from presidential removal. Those are up for grabs now and they are overruling precedent as fast as you can get it before them.

So the Constitution itself, what the law is, is going to be what they say it is.

And so that's cold comfort at this point. What does give me hope is that there are other systems, even within our own system.

Like we've been talking about the federal.

Government, but we also talked about in the context of Minnesota state and local politics. There's a lot of power in state.

And local politics and we need to.

Think about how to harness that power.

When the GOP was out in the wilderness during the Bill Clinton years, they were building power at the state and local levels. They were taking over state legislatures, they were taking over school boards. They left no power on the table. They weren't in power in Congress. They may not have been in power in the presidency, but they were going to find the pockets and they were.

Going to take them.

We've got to do that too. Like there's so, I mean, look, all politics is local. It matters who your school board is.

When you're trying to figure out if you are going to have curricula that.

Includes people of color or LGBTQ people, you need to have people who care.

About those sorts of things and care.

About them the way you care about them.

So those are the kinds of places where we can do things like thinking about the other systems of power that.

We can be a part of. And then finally the first words of the Constitution are we the people. When everyone turned out for those no Kings marches, they were shook. They were genuinely shook. And when people turned out for elections.

In 2025 that weren't supposed to be.

Anything but were literally people being like, f this, I hate it. They were shook. And they should be, because this isn't popular. This is minority rule in every sense of the word. And I'm just gonna say this is gonna be a hot take after this is over, if it's ever over. We really have to think about whether this is the Constitution we need. It is a Constitution that has so many compromises on race, on social slavery, on gender baked into it. It is a constitution that enshrines minority rule. Is this what we want? And again, this is a really serious question. I can see on some, there are some places where we might want minority rule. The overwhelming populace might not be a great idea as a decision making body. But right now, the fact that Wyoming has the same authority in the Senate as the people of California, that seems like an imbalance that ought to be structurally corrected in some way. The fact that we still use the Electoral College as opposed to the popular vote, when all of the reasons for the Electoral college have kind of dwindled at this point, that's a real problem. So I think there are structural impediments to a truly democratic system in society that we have to think seriously about how the Constitution abets that and how it might be fixed.

[Stacey Abrams]

Melissa Murray, as always, thank you for being the hot take, smart take. Let's take it to the end guest that I need. Appreciate that.

[Melissa Murray]

Let's take it to the dance floor. Stacy, there you go.

[Stacey Abrams]

To the wobble.

[Melissa Murray]

Thanks for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thanks for being here. As always, on assembly required, we know that our first job is to recognize what's happening. But then we have to take action. So for this week, here are your assignments. First, be curious.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

No matter your legal status, knowing your.

[Stacey Abrams]

Rights when you encounter ICE is more important than ever. So visit the National Immigrant justice [e-mail] and learn more about how to prepare and protect yourself. For example, remember it is your right to film Ice. Visit the Electronic Frontier foundation at eff.org for best practices on how to safely film ICE activity and to do so lawfully. Number two, let's solve some problems. Congress is considering several measures to curtail ice from ending qualified immunity, to demanding that Kristi Noem testify, to leveraging the budget process to force changes to the agency. So call your member of Congress to.

[Melissa Murray]

Find out what policies they plan on.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Supporting to put checks on ICE and.

[Melissa Murray]

Demand they take a stand opposing ICE's.

[Stacey Abrams]

Xenophobic and violent action.

[Melissa Murray]

And make sure to contact your local.

[Stacey Abrams]

Officials like your governor, your mayor, city councilor, school board members, and ask them.

[Melissa Murray]

How they plan to protect your community and your children.

[Stacey Abrams]

Visit commoncause.org findyourrepresentative to find out who should be fighting for you.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Third, do good.

[Stacey Abrams]

Immigration affects all of us, particularly when the system is broken.

[Melissa Murray]

For example, even when bond is granted.

[Stacey Abrams]

To those in immigration detention, it can be unaffordable. So donate to organizations like the Envision Freedom Fund at Envision E N V I S I o n freedomfund.org, which helps free people from immigrant detention and advocates for policies against incarceration. Assembly Required continues to grow its audience, but we need your help.

[Melissa Murray]

We reach more people when you tell.

[Stacey Abrams]

Others about us when you add us to your feed and share your favorite episode. So make sure you actually subscribe on all of your favorite platforms, not just one. Boost our visibility by rating the show and leaving a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, wherever you go to get your podcast. And please check out my substack Assembly Notes where we dive deep and where I share more of my thoughts on.

[Melissa Murray]

How we understand, stand and then fight.

[Stacey Abrams]

Back against this authoritarian regime. Well, that wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Do good out there and I'll meet you here next week.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Assembly Requirements is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

[Stacey Abrams]

Thank you to Matt de Groat, Kyle.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka.

[Stacey Abrams]

Mantha for production support. Our executive executive producers are Katie Long.

[Podcast Host Stacey Abrams]

And me, Stacey Abrams.

[Hidden Brain Podcast Announcer]

The start of a new year is a natural moment to set new goals and and shake up old habits. But doing so can also feel a little daunting. If you've ever reached the end of January feeling a bit cynical or discouraged about the hopes and resolutions that had seemed achievable just a few weeks earlier, The Hidden Brain Podcast is here to help all. This month we'll bring you the latest installment of Our popular your 2.0 series. The focus will be on the self doubt and anxiety that many of us grapple with when charting a new path. Whether you're struggling with self criticism, a lack of patience, or finding the courage to make a big change, we've got your back. That's U 2.0 from Hidden Brain all through the month of January. Join us.