B (5:10)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (5:13)

Okay, so a few months ago you wrote this remarkably prescient piece in the Atlantic called the New Dark Age and it focused on the Republicans attack on knowledge, the deliberate destruction of education, culture, science, history. You basically warned us about what was coming and I'm really a little bit annoyed that you got so much of it right. So would love to start this conversation out by having you outline some of the most glaring examples of this attack and how this attack has escalated in the past couple of months.

B (5:50)

Well, you know, I think the thing I started with was grants for scientific research. So it's clear that the administration has withdrawn or attempted to withdraw a tremendous amount of money financing medical and scientific research that they feel is politically incorrect. Like, I'm not even sure how else to describe it. Any kind of research that might lead to information that draws people to politically inconvenient conclusions about climate change, about energy, about pollution, about gender, about race. And this is not just happening with scientific research, but with humanities research they've taken away. They're trying to purge the museums of inconvenient facts about Slavery or racism. They've stripped national parks of information referring to slavery or the founding fathers being slave owners, things like that. They've taken away research grants for historical projects. The attack is so incredibly broad, it even extends to know knowledge that the government has about itself, about what kinds of policies are efficient, about getting rid of corruption. Because after all, this administration is one that is very much interested in profiting personally off of commercial arrangements with private institutions. I think disemboweling the inspector general's offices is one way to ensure that petty corruption flourishes within the federal government and ensure that funds that are supposed to go to people who need them or members of the public who need them or funding public projects instead go to people who don't need them. And there's no way to find out because you're getting rid of the people who figure out when those funds don't go where they're supposed to go. And I think the way to understand this kind of corruption to me, is that it's a kind of theft. You're stealing from the public and you are preventing the public's lives from being improved on the basis of the government's ability to improve scientific, medical, historical knowledge. And you are doing this because you want to prevent people from coming to political conclusions that might lead them to oppose the policy priorities of the administration. And we already know that this administration simply does not consider a speech that they do not approve of protected. I mean, the president essentially thinks it's illegal not to like him. And so, you know, he says things like the news that you publish about me is illegal, or the jokes that late night comedians make about me are legal. And this is really sort of an extension of that. They simply do not believe that people should be allowed to pursue lines of inquiry or express views that they find objectionable. And that extends to scientists, you know, one of the analogies that other people have made that I don't personally make, but, but that have been made by other people is to Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union, which is basically, you know, you take the actual scientific method and you and you invert it on its head and you say that every, every scientist has to express this particular political view, otherwise, you know, we're not going to support it or it's going to be treated like heresy. And that's basically what's happening with the federal government, with everything from medical science to technological research to historical research to artistic expression. I mean, to some extent, the federal government does support the arts, and now that money is not going to anybody, or they don't want that money to go to anybody who, who might produce art that isn't some sort of jingoistic.

A (10:14)

Propaganda, starting with the theft of our history. You always infuse your work with this very long view. And in your book, the Cruelty is the Point, you said that Trump is a manifestation of, as you put it, the ideological trends in American history that have been the most dangerous to our democracy. And in your article in the Atlantic, you really laid out what was being done in that first wave of Trump 2.0, this new Republican authoritarian regime. Can you talk about why the theft of our history is so dangerous to democracy?

B (10:55)

Well, I think their attack on history sort of explains it in a roundabout way. Their attempts to eliminate, you know, factual research, historical research, or historical expression of, you know, thing events that happen is really an attempt to prevent people from accessing this history of American liberalism. And the reason they're doing that is because, you know, it, it conflicts with what they want to believe about the history of the country. And I don't really describe that as, you know, I think it's more of a kind of America fandom than it is like patriotism, because they love an idea of the country that isn't real rather than the history of the country as it actually exists. And to the extent that despotism has had a foothold in American culture, it has always been in some way shape or form through racism. I mean, when you think about even the founding of the country at the time, white men who were not propertied also didn't have the right to vote. But with that expansion of the franchise to working class white men, the franchise was restricted from black men. And so you have this sort of concurrent line of ideological thought in American history that thinks of the country, thinks of these ideas of democracy and liberty as only applying to a particular class of people rather than being universal. And you have an alternate version of that kind of ideology expressed by people like Frederick Douglass or Martin Luther King or John Lewis or Ida Wells that believes in American principles as universalist principles. And basically almost all the conflicts, the sort of existential conflicts of this country have involved those two ideological tendencies clashing in some form. And it's not always that neat. I mean, you think of something like the turn of the century progressive movement where people who modern day liberals might be sympathetic to were also significantly, were also liberal by modern standards. Certainly they were racist or they were sexist. But I think this attack on history is really an attempt to make the inequalities of the present illegible. So if you know this fantasy version of America, where America hasn't ever been racist at all is real, then there's no need to try and rectify racial injustice because it's just a product of natural inequalities between black people and white people. And if you're thinking, well, that sounds pretty racist, it certainly is. And you know, I think the same is true with gender since the founding of the United States. You know, you had a country that was founded on the idea that all are created equal, but also that protected the institution of slavery. And that contradiction is the same one that's haunting us today. And you see sort of an extreme expression of it in this administration, which has a conception of liberty that only applies to them and people who think like them.

A (14:15)

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B (17:17)

Yeah, look, I mean, I think the thing to remember about authoritarian institutions, modern authoritarian states, is that they typically retain some vestigial aspects of democracy. And sometimes when I want to explain this to people, you know, I go to Star Wars. You know, you remember in the first Star wars movie, the one, you know, from the 70s, you know, they say something like, you know, the Senate has been abolished, the Imperial Senate has been abolished, and the last remnants of the old republic have been swept away. But what that means is that the Senate was there for a long time. So you have these democratic institutions that actually do not have power to check the executive. They look and they're called, what they might be called in a democratic society. But in fact, people do not have an ability to change their mind. Essentially, you cannot change the leadership of the state because the state is not democratically accountable. And what you see them trying to do now, as far as you have administration allies in corporate America trying to consolidate control over the media so that the media is friendlier to Donald Trump. You have an attempt to shape higher education so that people are not taught what the Trump administration considers forbidden thoughts, forbidden facts about our history. And ultimately, what they want to do is their view of the country is that they are actually the real Americans. And so, you know, democracy is when simply when they have control of the country forever in perpetuity, because, after all, the people who would change their minds about them aren't real Americans. And so their political will should not actually count. And, you know, what they're hoping is that with the destruction or with the shaping of higher education, to no longer present people with facts that might be used to challenge the administration with research, historical, scientific of any kind, not being used in ways that might provide people with information about policy alternatives that they might prefer to. Whatever the administration is pursuing, you know, this is going to make the country easier for them to control, they hope ultimately. I mean, the truth is that nothing lasts forever. It doesn't matter how spectacularly successful you are at it, you know, but I can't tell you how long this is going to last. But again, like I want to reiterate, this is a kind of theft. It is a kind of theft from the public because so much of what, you know, has made life easier for people over the past, like hundred years has been scientific advancements and technological advancements and educational advancements that have been made, you know, in part with the support of government. You know, and this is especially obvious with, you know, commercial technology because initially, you know, companies don't want to make investments in expensive investments in technologies they don't know will pay off. So with something like the Internet, you know, that starts off as like an American military thing because they have the money to, you know, they don't have to worry about their shareholders getting angry about what they're spending money on. They can afford to invest in technologies before they're profitable. And then, you know, the sort of market innovation of capitalism can do its thing after, you know, that original sort of beachhead is, is. Is established. But this is going to prevent that. This is going to prevent people from learning the truth about their own history and forming their own conclusions. It's going to prevent people from, you know, it's going to slow technological and medical advancements, so people are going to get sicker and not. And we're going to be prevented from discovering how to make them better in more efficient or effective ways. People are not going to be. And I think fundamentally, in the end, it's not like the truth is that the pendulum swings. So what they're concerned about ultimately is making sure, not just making sure that they have control over people's minds, but that they have control, a sufficient control over the political system that even if they, say, lose a vote, they do not have to cede power. And I think that's the thing that I think a lot of people are rightly worried about, given that, you know, the current president, last time he lost an election, attempted to, you know, overthrow the Constitution of the United States.

A (21:49)

I mean, it Looks to me that he and Republicans have, instead of trying to overthrow the government, they just don't plan to ever relinquish control of the government. And you have framed up a number of their attacks on the knowledge producing institutions, rightly as going after dei, diversity, equity and inclusion. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show is that in our 10 Steps to Autocracy and Authoritarianism, your writing, your analysis has really highlighted every single one of those steps. And so, you know, step seven is you scapegoat vulnerable populations, but you also decimate their access. And you write about how at the nih, staff members were instructed to cancel grants for projects that study transgender populations, gender identity, DEI in the scientific workforce. We have an executive order from Trump that says that you can't use DEI to train large language models in artificial intelligence. You quoted an African American studies professor at Yale who made a very sharp observation about why Republicans are coming after studies that focus on observing gaps in outcomes based on racial, gender and class lines. He said, it turns out when you pay close attention to these issues, you don't end up where they end up. And so they've had to manufacture their own facts and they're attacking the places that have the facts on the ground and the reality of history. This is textbook authoritarian behavior. Can you talk about what is happening in this moment that both chills you, that you wish people understood, especially around the issue of DEI and where are the opportunities for us to insert better behavior, at least better knowledge?

B (23:42)

So I think the important thing about DEI is that it's a misnomer. You know, I think a lot of times when people think about dei, they think about, you know, sort of annoying HR workplace trainings, but what they're really going after is enforcement of civil rights law, enforcement of non discrimination law. What they're saying is you should be able to discriminate because some people are better than others. And that applies to racial and gender groups, not simply individuals. That's sort of the dark reality behind these attacks is they simply think you should be allowed to discriminate. They think it's wrong that civil rights law, federal civil rights law, prevented that for so long because some people, some classes of people are simply better than others. And I wish that's what people understood about di. They're not talking about, you know, your annoying colleague who uses like academic race jargon. They're talking about, you know, if I don't want to hire a black person who's qualified, I shouldn't have to do that. And you know, I wrote a different piece called the Great Resegregation, which really focused on this. And I think, you know, the thing to understand is that, you know, American occupational segregation has not changed much since the 1990s. You know, we are about as segregated as we were in the 1990s, in part because, you know, sectors of the American economy where you do not need a college degree remain, but can make a decent amount of money remain tremendously segregated. And you know, one of the things that I think people need to understand is that they have sort of been misled, I think by the extent to which a lot of people in public facing jobs have become more diverse. Like if you watch television now, if you look at Congress, Congress is more diverse. But in terms of like actual, you know, the actual American workplace, things haven't changed very much at all. Things haven't changed very much in terms of residential segregation. So if you think of these things as problems, then you might want to do something about them. But if you take the mindset that actually these are just reflections of people's inherent abilities and nothing needs to be done about it, and also we'll take away the history that shows that it's the result of government policy rather than people's actual abilities, then people won't understand why, won't have another explanation for why inequality is the way it is. And I think another, like, really important thing to understand is one of the places where black people traditionally have been able to advance in employment is the federal government. And why is that? Because the non discrimination protections are so strong, even in sort of, you know, even in the private sector, you know, you're so. Social links can be a tremendous factor in whether or not you get ahead. You know, you know, somebody's daddy who owns a company and you can get a job there. But if, but with the federal government, you know, the non discrimination protections have been so strong traditionally that you have had a lot of black people. The black middle class has substantially been built by federal employment. And it's not a coincidence that she. I mean, I think the New York Times had an article about this a while ago that so many of the people who are being laid off, you know, losing their jobs with the federal government are black people, in particular, black women. I mean, my mother was a black civil servant. My father, my father was also a civil servant. He worked for the State Department. He's, he's. He was white and Jewish. But the point is, you know, this is, this is something that's been known for a long Time. It's something that's like very well represented in the social science. And I think the irony about it is that, you know, it's almost as if the right looked at all the sort of liberal and left wing critiques of structural racism in the United States and said, yeah, all of that's true, but it's good. So we should, like make sure that there's more structural racism instead of less or more structural sexism instead of less.

A (27:55)

No, I think you're absolutely right. I encourage people to go to aprnetwork.org There is a really robust list of all of the laws that are DEI laws, from labor laws to the Americans with Disabilities act, all of the civil rights laws. Because I think you're right, we tend to mischaracterize DEI as this annoying HR issue. And they very clearly see DEI as the structural underpinning of a pluralistic democracy, and they are aggressively and assiduously working to dismantle it. I think we also saw that with Pete Hegseth and his speech about the military. We know that the intention of requiring everyone to be clean shaven has a disproportionate effect on black and brown members of the military. And I think you're right. They are working hard to make it legal to discriminate again.

B (28:55)

Right. We're not talking about. When people say dei, they think we're talking about sort of silly stuff. But they're talking about the Civil Rights act, they're talking about the Voting Rights act, they're talking about equality for not just people of color, but for men and women, for people who have disabilities. Their view is simply that they should be allowed to discriminate because some people are better than others, some classes of people are better than others. And if you have any doubts about that, you could look at their quote, unquote, refugee policy, which pretty much at this point only accepts white people from South Africa.

A (29:31)

And I think it's incredibly important that you spend time talking about this and unpacking it, because if you care about authoritarianism, you have to care about dei. My very strong argument, and I think you make this so plain in your writings, is in 17 years, this nation becomes a majority minority country. They can count. Those who are trying to change the structural reality of America understand that. And if you read Project 2025, if you look at their areas of attack, it is all designed to make certain that the people they don't believe are worthy of this nation have no power in this nation. And so one of the questions I have for you is just based on your research and your thinking, what are ways we can countermand or at least have a better grasp on how to understand what's happening?

B (30:28)

Well, I'll say a couple of things. I think the irony is that a lot of, you know, I think that you're right, that they do think that, but I think the irony is that they're wrong. I mean, they have this sort of quote, unquote, great replacement theory that when the US Becomes minority, minority conservatism is doomed. But it's not true. I mean, it's just simply not true. Like, you know, this idea that your demographics determine your politics is simply incorrect. And you could see it in Trump's increasing share of the Hispanic vote, and not just the Hispanic vote, the Asian vote. I mean, the reality is that this racist idea that if you're not a white person, you're probably not going to be a conservative, there are versions of it on both left and right, but on the right, it's become this great motivating ideological concept called the great Republican placement. But the sort of political theory behind it is incorrect. There are a lot of people of color who have very conservative views and might even vote Republican if it were not for the Republicans talking about race and racism in this way. The other thing I would say is that I think the most important thing people can do to understand what's happening right now is to read books about American history, because there's a couple of things that really matter for the purposes of American flavor of authoritarianism. And one is that American authoritarians always present themselves as defending democracy rather than attacking it, because that is, you know, a sort of. The word is universally understood mostly as good, with the exception of a few, like, really hardcore ideologues. So, you know, when, you know, at the end of Reconstruction, you know, people who were disenfranchising black people in the Southern states, their view is that they were saving democracy from people who are too, quote, ignorant to exercise the franchise. And so, you know, this idea that, you know, if there was an authoritarian authoritarianism in America, it would look like something out of Europe is just incorrect. We have had illiberal traditions in the United States since the founding of the country. And when you look at those illiberal traditions, they become very familiar in terms of the kind of problems that we're dealing with now as a country. So my number one recommendation in terms of understanding things is simply to read about American history and read about how these forms of government worked. I mean, we talk about gerrymandering as if it's just like a part of partisan combat. But, you know, one of the first things that they were doing at the end of Reconstruction was trying to gerrymander black. You know, before they put in the full Jim Crow restrictions, what they were trying to do was gerrymander black votes into districts where they could not have an impact on the outcome of the vote. You know, this is not something that comes out of nowhere. All the things that are happening right now, most of them at least have historical antecedents where, you know, and events in which Americans basically accepted at one point or another in the country, the existence of authoritarianism within the United States, even if it wasn't fully the whole country. I mean, when you understand that America has only been a true multiracial democracy since 1965, everything that's happening now makes a lot more sense, including this sort of attempted authoritarian takeover by a man whose rise to political prominence stemmed from his questioning of the citizenship of the first black president of the United States. It's just not a coincidence.

A (34:16)

Well, another aspect of this attack on knowledge is the practical implications it has for the economy. So let's take the Bureau of Labor Statistics. This is an independent agency that reports on the labor market. And people who want to understand the American economy heavily rely on these monthly support reports. This summer, the President fired the independent commissioner who headed up the Bureau of Labor Statistics after a weak jobs report. Last week, Republicans celebrated the fact that the government shutdown meant that there would not be a report on the continuing weakening of the economy. And I recently did a TikTok where I explained the intersection of why you need a BLS report. Because BLS does the Consumer Price Index, which is how people get their COLAs if you are on Social Security or if you receive disability. And yet people don't really understand that the federal government is one of our leading producers of knowledge. Can you talk about sort of the practical implications of his tendency to install loyalists and to destroy the information? So if you're looking at what he did at bls, what he did with, you know, Robert Kennedy at hhs, what he's trying to do with Governor Lisa Cook at the Federal Reserve, can you sort of talk about why it matters that the knowledge we get from the government needs to be true?

B (35:51)

Yeah, I mean, look, the government, the government's knowledge has to be rigorous and fact based. And if it's not, and you can see, you know, what's interesting is Republicans have been the most squeamish around stuff like this. So Trump's nominee to run the Bureau of Labor Statistics was rejected. And the Supreme Court has given Trump pretty much everything he wanted, but they've been less willing to do that with the Fed. And it basically, I think, comes down to part of the bargain with Trump is that, you know, rich people get tax cuts and they get to, they get non enforcement of regulations and they get to, you know, pretty much get away with whatever they want. And you know, and then, you know, on the flip side, Trump gets to do his culture wars. But part of that agreement, I think, is they don't want him to actually mess with their money. They don't want him making the kinds of decisions that are going to prevent them, you know, market actors from behaving rationally in a way that will allow them to preserve those profits that they have worked so very hard to keep to themselves. And so, you know, firms cannot make sensible economic decisions in a climate where the government is putting out economic propaganda. And they understand that. It's why it's the one place where they've been a little squeamish about Trump doing this stuff, doing the regular stuff that he's been doing everywhere else.

A (37:20)

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B (40:09)

Well, look, I mean I think you know, the thing that comes to mind immediately is the measles outbreaks. Like why are we having measles outbreaks? Because Republicans have decided to go in on anti vax insanity. When the government leans on universities to teach propaganda then your kids don't, don't learn how to do things properly. You know, when you, you prevent the government from gathering information about itself and making sure that it's spending money correctly, then that money doesn't get spent the way the public needs to be spent and the public loses out. When you, you know, when, when the government is not investing in new technologies and is instead shoveling funds to the President's allies for like you know, building new ice, prisons or whatever, you know, we get less technological advancement, less, less advancement of things that improve Americans daily lives and there's also just fewer jobs. You know this, this sort of economic malpractice that the President is engaged in is going to make things harder for everybody. It already is. And you know, part of, you know, part of this attack on, you know, the information producing institutions that deal with the economy is to prevent that news from getting out in any way that's definitive. It's not so much that they don't want you to have access to the information period. They want you in a state of constant cynicism to where nobody can really come to an agreement about what the facts are or what is true. Which is some ways even worse because they operate very well in this sort of world of unreality. I mean, if you look at what's happening now with these sort of deployments of the National Guard for supposed terrorist attacks and insurrections that just aren't happening, people, they understand that their voters and that people in general are, they think in terms of who their team is, and so they will want to believe things that aren't true if their team, if the leader of their team says it, even if on some level they know it's false. And you could see this with the 2020 election. I don't think that there are, I mean, there are people who really believe that the election was stolen. But I think for the most part it is an expression of my team won and therefore I don't have to feel bad that my team lost. And like I said, in this environment of unreality, not where the information is not accessible, but where it's so confused to where people can't establish definitively what the truth is, one of the institutions that was able to do that was the government. And that's not to say the government was always right. But when you say there's no racial discrimination in policing and DOJ produces a pattern or practice investigation of a police department that is struggling in a very real way with racism and discrimination on the basis of statistics, communications internally, how the police themselves are told to behave, that stuff is harder to argue with. So it's better to just destroy it or make it so untrustworthy that people's cynicism can fill in the blanks and be like, well, that's probably not true because nothing's true. And I really think, I really want to emphasize that that kind of sort of blanket, all purpose cynicism makes you susceptible to being manipulated, even though it's supposed to be a protection against that kind of manipulation, in the end, what happens is you don't trust anything and as a result, you can't figure out what the truth is.

A (43:56)

I mean, you've been adamant that the politics of cruelty is not limited to Trump and that even without Trump, something like Trumpism would always find fertile ground in this country. Now, I've also been very vocal that we can't lay all of this destruction at his feet alone because we've seen how the entire Republican Party has doubled down to become Trump's enthusiastic co conspirators, whether it's in Congress or governors that are sending National Guardsmen into other states or a court that has handed him win after win that's eviscerated The Constitution. I worry, though, that this is a permanent feature that we are just seeing in real time, but that we won't be able to move away from. Can you talk about why I'm hopefully wrong?

B (44:46)

Well, I can't say that you're wrong. I can't say that you're wrong. But what I will say is that democracy, there's no riding into the sunset with democracy. Democratic self determination is something that every generation has to preserve. So when we talk about, well, why does every election have to be so important, it's like, well, because preserving your right to choose your leaders is important. And if you get complacent or enough people get enraptured with the demagogue, you can lose that freedom. And that's why you have to be so vigilant all the time. And I think of when you think back to somebody like Ida Wells, who sort of came of age after Reconstruction, so they saw, you know, her generation saw the dawn of reconstruction and then saw the sunset on the multiracial democratic project, you know, for decades. And the truth is that, you know, you have to fight for this stuff. You have to defend it if you want to keep it. And that's true for every generation that is born. It's just not a fight that ends. And so, you know, and the hopeful thing about that is that again, nothing lasts forever. This ends when the people decide that they want it to end and they have the power to do that. And, you know, if they didn't have the power to do that, the Trump administration wouldn't be so desperate to control what people think and how people think and how people talk.

A (46:32)

Adam Serwer, thank you so much for joining us here today on Assembly Required.

B (46:37)

Thank you.

A (46:38)

I appreciate you. So joining me now to help me answer another one of your questions is our producer, Farrah. Hi, Stacy. Thanks for having me. Of course. You're always welcome. Thank you. So for this week, our listener question, we switched it up and we asked the Assembly Required discord. And yes, we have a discord that you can be a part of if you become a friend of the POD at Crooked Media. And this question comes from the listener, Confused Disaster, which by the way, is a very relatable username because I'm also a confused disaster. And they ask, what do you think is the best strategy to use when dealing with someone who is with us on one issue but struggles with another important issue, I. E. They are with us on environmental issues, but not there yet on the social justice or environmental justice front? So I've always believed in alignment, not agreement. Agreement says that if you're going to be with me, you have to be with me everywhere and in every way. We have to be in lockstep intellectually, emotionally, psychologically, and that's a lot of work. My parents are pastors. Their job is to convert people's souls, to help people find all of those pieces and put them in a package. That's not my job. And it is nearly impossible to achieve or to know that you've done it. Alignment, though, says that we can find enough points of common agreement and enough points of common intention that we can work together. And when we start with alignment, we actually create space for agreement to grow. We don't know why someone doesn't agree. We don't know why they haven't decided that the issues that animate us should animate them. And by starting with alignment, what we do is welcome people into the conversation. Today's discussion was about knowledge. And the way you build knowledge is by creating space for people to ask questions, but also for them to gather information and to process it. And so this is a very long way of saying that if we focus on alignment, where can we work together? We create space for agreement. Where do our ideologies resonate with one another? But I would never say no to working with someone because they haven't quite gotten to the same place I am on every issue. But if our values are aligned and our intentions are aligned, we can get to agreement eventually. That's great. Thank you so much, Stacy. Of course, as always on assembly required, we like to give our listeners actionable tools for facing the challenges of today. So here's this week's toolkit in which we will, as you know, encourage you to be curious, solve problems, and do good. First, be curious. Pick up a copy of Adam's book the Cruelty is the Point, and check out his incredible writing for the Atlantic for important commentary on how to make sense of our current reality. Number two, solve problems. If your local school district is making moves to undermine education and knowledge, attend school board meetings to speak out whether you have kids in the school or not. Consider following the lead of parents in Florida who've started gathering students at a local cultural center to teach them supplemental lessons on black history. Educators and content creators are turning to TikTok to share important history lessons as well. So find reputable sources to keep yourself and the young people in your life informed. And, of course, do good. Recently, ProPublica reported on the 94 million pounds of food that the Trump administration destroyed. Rather than allow it to be delivered to food banks across the country. As the economy continues to weaken and with furloughed federal employees facing dwindling pay, I encourage you to support your local food bank. Visit feedingamerica.org to locate your closest food bank and find ways you can help. As always, if you like what you hear, be sure to share this episode and subscribe on all your favorite platforms and to meet the demands of the algorithms. Please rate the show and leave a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple or wherever you go to listen and learn. Please also check out my substack Assembly Notes for more information about what we discussed on the podcast and other tools to help us protect our democracy. Thank you to the thousands of you who've signed up for the 10 Steps campaign at 10stepscampaign.org We've recently updated the site to add more resources, a glossary and a Spanish language version. I'd love to hear more about what you're going to be doing and what tools or resources would be helpful. And please practice Step two and share the site with your friends and family. If you have a report, a question or a comment for me, send it in. You can start with an email to assemblyrequiredcrocket.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be Featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Be careful out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a Crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt to Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mantha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.

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