← Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams
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- [00:00]
Stacey Abrams
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- [01:49]
Caller/Listener
Hey, sweetie. Your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana, give it a whirlwind. Love you.
- [02:12]
Stacey Abrams
So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it.
- [02:14]
Asted Herndon
Sell your car today. On car pickup fees may apply.
- [02:27]
Stacey Abrams
Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. This past weekend, I spoke at the LA Times Festival of Books about my latest novel, Coded Justice. It's an AI whodunit set against a blockbuster IPO led by a tech bro with mixed motives. This is my third installment in the Avery Keane series. My legal and political thriller series that grapples with topics like the energy grid, biogenetic warfare, and the frailties of the US Constitution, and how to overcome duplicitous, dishonest presidents. Now, often when people who know me from my democracy work find out that I'm also a fiction writer, they ask why I do both. For me, writing these novels is a way to do my job of helping people understand our democracy. Rather than hand them a white paper, which they absolutely will not read, I mix suspense and drama and public policy and invite the reader to join me in a complex topic that I try to spice up with some murder and mayhem. But what I write is supposed to be fiction. Today, though, I want to talk about a real life debate happening in Congress right now that most Americans haven't heard of. Or if you have, you did know what they were talking about. But no matter where you are, you should care about it deeply. It involves surveillance, civil liberties, national security, and the question of who gets to decide how much of your private life the government is allowed to see. I'm talking about Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, otherwise known as FISA. Congress is debating right now whether to renew it or let it end. And last week they punted on the question, no surprise, with a voice vote, which is where no one has to actually go on the record. And they gave themselves a temporary reprieve until April 30th. This was unusual because they've had several failed votes. And that's because, like me, Congress has real concerns about this law, and apparently so do Democrats and a surprising number of Republicans. Now, I wrote about the FISA court in my second novel, Rogue justice, where Avery Keane has to unravel a blackmail scheme involving this powerful clandestine court that really does exist. First, let me tell you what section 702 actually is. The law authorizes the intelligence community to collect communications of foreign targets located outside the United States. They get permission from judges known as the FISA court, but only the government is allowed to appear before the court, not the targets, not anyone else. And the problem is what happens next? You see, when the government surveils a foreign target, it inevitably sweeps up communications from the Americans they're in contact with. The government calls that incidental collection. And then, and here's the part that should give you pause, the FBI can search that database for Americans information without obtaining a warrant. So no judge, no probable cause, no notification to the person being searched. A direct violation of everything most of us learned from law and order. Look, that's not a technicality. It circumvents the Constitution. The fourth Amendment was written precisely to prevent general warrants to stop the government from rummaging through people's lives on a hunch. Yet this is functionally what warrantless backdoor searches of the 702 database allow. Besides, when I wrote about FISA in 2023, we still had the illusion of checks and balances and three functional branches of government. Yet even then the FISA system had flaws. We know from official government findings that FISA's authority has been misused. The FBI ran unauthorized searches on Black Lives matter protesters on January 6th suspects and on a sitting member of Congress. Thousands of non compliant searches documented by the Inspector General. But today, with a power mad president firing inspectors general and the US Supreme Court waffling on which constitutional rights they actually like, we are right to be worried about extending this authority to spy on c citizens. Especially now that we live in a backsliding democracy in the grips of an authoritarian fever dream. Now let's also not forget Doge has been given access to federal databases, Social Security records, tax returns, immigration data. They got that with minimal oversight and questionable legal authority. Then you add Palantir, the data analytics company with deep roots in the intelligence community, which is now embedded in federal agencies and expanding into state and local government. When you combine a warrantless surveillance authority with that kind of data aggregation infrastructure, you're not talking about targeted foreign intelligence anymore. This is about the architecture of a surveillance state, something I might write about. And just to put a fine point on it, Anthropic just risked billions of dollars in federal contracts because it refused to help this administration do just that. So we know these hypotheticals are not hyperbole. Now here's where I have to lay out the other side of the debate, because it is a real question. And dismissing the other side would be intellectually dishonest. Intelligence officials from both Democratic and Republican administrations have credited 702 with disrupting genuine threats to America. Terrorist plots, foreign cyber attacks, state sponsored espionage from China, Russia and Iran before Trump and Hegseth declared Netanyahu's war. Members of Congress who sat through classified briefings, including Democrats I respect, have come away believing this program catches things that matter. Proponents of FISA also argue that enhanced minimization procedures, stricter compliance mechanisms and real congressional oversight can actually achieve the civil liberties protections that we need without hollowing out the program's effectiveness. And that's not a cynical argument argument. It's a genuine disagreement about how to thread the needle to protect Americans. But speed that sacrifices freedom is dangerous. So where does that leave us? Here's my position. I believe a Warrant Requirement for U.S. person inquiries is not a radical ask. It's already in the Constitution. So we just have to demand that we follow it. If the government has probable cause to search an American's communications, it can get a warrant. That process exists for a reason and the FISA court can do it. Now, the counterargument is that it's too slow or too cumbersome. But at its core, that's an argument that efficiency should supersede constitutional rights. And I will tell you, as a patriot, that's a line I. I am not willing to cross. And I'm not willing to say our government should cross it. But I also believe that the choice isn't binary. Renew FISA or blow it up. Look, the question Congress actually should be answering is what does a version of this law look like that takes both the security need and the civil liberties risks seriously? That means a real warrant requirement and actual action adversarial proceedings in the FISA court, a court that shouldn't be hidden from accountability. So we should demand that 702 include sunset clauses with actual teeth and no ability to bypass tough questions, oversight. That isn't just a rubber stamp, especially when those in power know that data that your information is gold. What I will not accept, what none of us should accept, is the argument that we must choose between security and personal liberty. Like so much political debate these days, that is a false choice. And it has been used to justify this surveillance overreach for decades now. We are a country capable of protecting ourselves and honoring the Constitution. The question is whether Congress has the will to do both at once or whether they'll take the easier path and just renew this law without meaningful reform and leave the hard work for someone else. So Assembly Required listeners, I need you to take the next 10 days and reach out to your members of Congress before they decide that they have the right to watch you too. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by bookshop.org where you shop for Books Matters. When you purchase from bookshop.org you're supporting more than 2,500 local independent bookstores across the country. And look, independent bookstores do more than sell books. They take care of our communities and pour back into our neighbors. They create safe spaces that foster culture, encourage curiosity, and help spur a love of reading. Whether you're searching for a biography of an historical figure to admire or you just want to know more about a gripping thriller that keeps you on the edge of your seat or up way too late, or the perfect gift for a loved one. Bookshop.org has you covered. I just picked up Kind by Tayari Jones and I'm excited to dive into another one of her incredible stories. Use Code assembly to get 10% off your next order at bookshop.org assembly required with Stacey Abrams is brought to you by HoneyLove. Few experiences are as universal as the dread of the sports bra. This is a contraption that is hard to put on or take off and they have the added bonus of straps that dig into your shoulders and strain your neck and even the best ones that do the job right, you want to take off the second your workout ends. The honeylove Crossflex Sports Bra is different from any other sports bra I've tried. It's supportive without feeling suffocating and it's actually designed for all day wear. 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Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off honeylove@honeylove.com assembly that's honeylove.com assembly after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you Experience the new standard and comfortable and support with Honey Love. Joining us today to guide us through recent news, what we're missing and how we can process what we do see is today's guest, Asted Herndon. Asted Herndon is an Editorial Director at Vox where he hosts the podcast America. Actually previously he was a politics reporter at the New York Times and a political analyst for cnn, Stead Herndon. Welcome to Assembly Required.
- [15:32]
Asted Herndon
Thank you so much for having me. I'm pumped to be here.
- [15:35]
Stacey Abrams
I wanted to have you on today in part because you last week launched a new podcast at Vox called America actually, can you tell us about the premise and what are the big questions you'll be grappling with?
- [15:48]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I mean, it's a follow up on some of the work we were doing on the run up, the New York Times podcast I had that you gratefully appeared on in 2022. But the idea is really to think about this country in our next steps. You know, I was thinking so much of our kind of focus is on the right now is on kind of Donald Trump blotting out the sun. And I thought, what if we make a, like a Trump free space? What if we can think about the seeds of how the country is going to be evolving past him as we build to obviously, a first open contest in 2028 between both parties that we've had since he, you know, descended down that escalator. And so that's really going to be our thought is like, what are the seeds of change that are in the air? What's the seeds in seeing the country kind of beyond top down, but bottom up? And what are the ideas that are kind of driving that? And so I think that's what we want to do, is make a community that's starting what sometimes seems like the impossible journey of thinking about us beyond this present.
- [16:46]
Stacey Abrams
No, I appreciate that. And part of the reason I wanted you here is that listeners to assembly required understand that I often share my concerns about the danger of centering all of our political attention and our worry about political ills around Trump. He's a symptom of American political dysfunction. He's a symptom and an avatar for this authoritarian disease, but he's not the disease itself. And in my view, the entire Republican apparatus is now part and parcel of implementing this sort of shared authoritarian agenda. And that makes fighting back even more urgent. And what you were talking about is understanding and thinking beyond this moment, because I would argue this is a project that's going to take longer than an election cycle or two.
- [17:37]
Asted Herndon
I just think sometimes in political coverage, we are so obsessed with the now that even, even in getting to an election, we're still thinking about the last info we had from two to four years ago and not seeing how people are changing in real time and how that's going to be expressed going forward. Forward. And so I, I agree with you about kind of Donald Trump as a symptom of a changing political system, of. About a symptom of structures and all of those things. But I also think that if we were doing our jobs as best as possible, that we could see, we would saw his rise coming a little clearer too, because of changes that were happening beyond the traditional political sphere in the lead up to it. And so that's kind of what I want to do. Like, I find it to be like a medium failure when folks are surprised on election night. And so I just think that we can try to do better work to understand our neighbors, to understand the changes in our country, and help see the seeds of change before they manifest itself in people's votes.
- [18:38]
Stacey Abrams
So what are some of the markers you're looking at now, when you think about what America actually has to focus on? What are some of the markers that you are assessing?
- [18:49]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, our first episode was actually asking Nate Silver and Hunter Harris, the pollster and the cultural critic, kind of that exact question. Okay, if we take this premise of looking beyond this individual, where should we start? And I think there's a couple clear trend lines. You know, we isolated demographic groups like, you know, first generation Americans, changes in working class minorities, I think some of the kind of typical groups we're thinking about as being more, maybe more and more important in the electorate. But it's also ideas, too. I mean, I think it's things about political creativity. So much of our, so much of what I heard from voters in the run up and the podcast I was doing before was about a kind of sense of that we had stopped thinking about how change could happen. And so, you know, I want to be a place where, you know, we were just talking to folks, we were talking to Caitlin Dickerson about, okay, if we take away Donald Trump, what do Americans actually think about immigration reform? What are the places of unity? What are the places of disagreement? And that's an issue. I think that you actually see widespread agreement about, dislike, about his actions, but there's a lot less clarity about what people want instead. And so I think those are the things that emerge in a political primary when we have to ask ourselves clear questions. And so that's the kind of themes that I think we're going to be following. Not just the people who determine the future, but the ideas that are going to drive it.
- [20:07]
Stacey Abrams
When you think about the lack of clarity in people's understanding of what should come next, how much of that is informed by your other diagnosis, which is that media organizations failed in previous years to not predict what would happen, but to seed enough information in the public consciousness that we could know what could be. How are you processing that?
- [20:32]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I think that's really core to my kind of formation in journalism. Like, I tell people the most important thing was, you know, I remember where I was kind of fresh out of College in the 2016 election and being upset with journalism itself as I was starting in the industry, not just because of, like, surprise at result, but I was thinking about the primary, both D and R, and how that really missed this change in sentiment happening across the country. And it really informed me to say, okay, there are so many gaps in where polling can tell us. You know, it can tell us what, it can identify trends, but it's not getting us to why. And something else needs to kind of fill in those gaps. And so I told. I really believe that when media does its job well, people feel empowered to see change on their own terms. People see the ways political systems fail them rather than just individuals, and that it's on us to really provide that information. But I also think we're up against an increasing kind of, like, mountain of misinformation, changing tech and economy. Like, I think there's legitimate structures, structural reasons. We've been kind of drowned out, too. I tell people, even as we're starting, like, I'm sure you feel this. And in this, I'm like, you know, do the podcasters want nuance? You know, do they want complicated stories? Or is it just like, are we in a world now where it's just the most fringe or the most bombastic wins? And I think that's what we're up against is like, if your answer to why are things the way they are? Is complicated, how do you make sure you get people to sit with that? And so partly that's why I move from paper to podcasting now, audio to video. Is trying to make sure I'm staying with the way people are ingesting information, because I think if you give them those tools, I've always seen them respond. And that means a lot to me is, like, what our role should be.
- [22:21]
Stacey Abrams
I mean, one of the challenges I'm facing in the way I approach this work is that I'm not a journalist, I'm not a commentator. I'm someone in public policy who recognizes that this media is an extraordinary way to share information, and part of that information is the news. But it's also giving people the tools to process and understand how information is delivered, how it is developed and what it means. And at the top of this episode, I talk a little bit about writing fiction and how that's also one of the mechanisms I use. You are someone who has gone from the New York Times and paper to Vox and to audio and video. But there's a through line for you that I think is important for people to see, which is that you're often very clear about lifting up communities that seem underrepresented in the way the media approaches politics and cultural stories. Can you talk a little bit about the communities that you are really trying to target through your reportage, but also through your delivery?
- [23:29]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I mean, it really is formed in how I grew up, how I came. I feel like I came from places where politics were not necessarily built to be in our language. You know, the kind of. Like, right now I see people talking about, you know, working class minorities are the new swing voter. I'm like, they've always sort of been swing voters. They've always necessarily been, you know, housed in one party identity, even if they consistently voted for one group more than another. And so for me, I want to do things that reflect those voices. But it's also because I think elections make that work necessary. Like, you will not get where we're going if you stay in that silo, you know, And I just think that so much of our media has shifted into kind of partisan divides that, like, I do feel it's important, important to represent a different type of intersection. And so I remember when I was kind of starting off at the Times, I made clear, like, I want to do black voters. Yeah. I want to do Midwesterners, like, where I grew up. I want to do stuff about evangelicals, like, my father passed. But I want to go to the Trump rally, too. I don't want to see those stories only to a certain type of person. And I think my presence there can bring out a new type of thing. And so I was always clear to me, like when Donald, when Trump voters took that they feel somewhat marginalized in media and that they don't feel fully taken seriously. I don't think that's all wrong. I think some of that stuff can be treated as, like, fetishy or only noticing a certain type or only wanting to tell a specific story about them. It's just that I don't think they're the only ones who have claim to that. Like, I remember when I was at the Boston Globe and I was a crime reporter for a year and a half. So, like, murders, fires, drug overdoses. And the biggest thing that was the barrier to making those stories happen was the trust gap because they knew that you only showed up to the community when bad stuff happened. They knew that they were only in the news when they, you know, when it bleeds, it leads. And that was a legitimate criticism. And so my work there was only possible because I started from a place of acknowledging that that lack of trust was based in something real. I didn't try to gaslight them out of that. I just said that, hey, but you're still going to want an accurate record of why we're here. And I've learned that that was a, that was a much easier way to get them to share and get them to participate in the story. And so I took that same lens to political things, but it really was based in feeling like I don't want to have to defend all of media like they do. We do a lot of stuff that's not good. Like I'm just here. I just think that the principle is good and that the principle is something that you're going to want. That I want to live up to.
- [26:05]
Stacey Abrams
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- [30:29]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I mean, I'm someone who thinks that the loneliness crisis isn't limited to one group. It's not just men, it's not just women. It's not Gen Z or older folks. I think we are all dealing with an increasingly siloed social ecosystem. I see that on the trail. I mean, I think that there is a breakdown of kind of shared reality that has a big impact about our feelings about democracy. And you know, I'm someone who traces that back to things like collapse of local newspapers or lack of civic engagement on an early level that has really made it easier for technology to do that sort of dividing. But even now, I mean, we used to say that politics, you know, that Twitter wasn't real life in politics. And that's definitely true, like, specific to that app. But I don't even know if you can say YouTube and TikTok aren't real life. It's so many people's lives. And so I think it's important for me to understand the gaps in that and also the power of it, too. But, you know, one of the things I think this came up a lot in the, in the Biden years is that there was a kind of caricature of Democrats that had taken root in some of these places. And so that doesn't mean that, that doesn't mean that it's all true or it's all false, but I could tell the electoral impact that some of that was having. And so, you know, I definitely think that we have to talk about isolation. We have to talk about shared community. And one of the things I would say Trump, you know, has been somewhat successful at and other politicians have done too. Maybe Zoran's a good example in New York City, too, about using politics to do some of that community work, helping people break out of isolation. And I say I use the Trump example because, you know, when people just ask me about going, I'm like, you know, three out of 10 times is the craziest thing I've ever seen. Three out of four times, it's kind of SEC football game, and a couple other times it's like megachurch. There's other ways to think about stuff too, even if that doesn't. I'm not trying to minimize some of the impacts and policy stuff that is obviously the through line between some of those groups. So I think we have to think about community partially because it's part of been broken down to such a degree. I think that's a big reason your, you know, gubernatorial runs have had lasting impact is because they were based in a shared collective action. And so I think people crave that type of stuff, and I think it's successful. Politicians make that shift from, from individual vote to collective movement.
- [32:59]
Stacey Abrams
One of the shifts that we're seeing is happening around the issue of the Iran war and before that, just America's involvement in foreign wars and foreign enterprise. And we're seeing it animate voters across the political spectrum. What do you see as the implications for political realignment either in 26 or 28, or is there really a realignment happening?
- [33:25]
Asted Herndon
I think There is, I think there's a lot of shifts that are taking place. But Iran's a good example because the biggest driver of people's cynicism is still individual economic concerns. So it's Iran tied to gas prices, it's tariffs tied to rising inflation. And I think some of those are. We shouldn't see these issues as inherently disconnected, but somewhat connected. But, you know, Donald Trump, and I think this, this might sound ridiculous to people who obviously never believed him, but Donald Trump has, has 180 on some fundamental promises that have mattered. You know, no forever wars or focusing on egg prices. All of those things are things that he, I think, diagnosed people's legitimate concern about America's place in the world under Biden, too. But he has not provided solutions. And I think, frankly, was never really providing solutions that was based in what people wanted. And so I think that gap has become super clear. I mean, to answer the question directly, though, on the Republican side, I do think that your Tucker Carlson's and Megyn Kelly's are leading indicators of a shift among a base that does feel like he did not follow through on Epstein, that he, that, you know, things like no forever wars were things they meant and that, you know, and we're seeing some friction on that front. And I think the question of America's changing thought about Israel and our relationship to Israel is roiling both parties. And so I think that those things are going to be things that are most clearly fought in 2027 in a presidential primary. But I do think we're seeing some of those seeds right now in the congressional races, because I think there will be, I think Democrats will have, or I think both sides kind of will let candidates exist on their own in relationship to their own races this year because of the need for, you know, winning Congress, winning in it and the rest, it comes next summer. And I think in those open primaries where some of those fundamental questions will have to be answered. If I'm J.D. vance, for example, this is question number one, right? I think that's the reason you see him trying to make clear, oh, I maybe didn't like this action here, or maybe he didn't like that action here and such because he understands that there is a legitimate conflict between Trump's words and Trump's actions.
- [35:44]
Stacey Abrams
So as we think about going beyond the Trump centric Republican Party, as you think about who joins JD Vance and Marco Rubio in the scrum, I know there's a lot of attention being focused on the Democratic side, but I think to your point, There is an evolution happening with the GOP that is underreported or certainly under commented upon. Who are some dark horses that you're seeing in this conversation either, you know, you mentioned Tuck Carlson and Megyn Kelly. Who are the political actors or potential political actors, maybe non systems candidates who might enter this conversation?
- [36:23]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I mean I think from both sides of the coin. I would start thinking about 2028 from non system candidates. I think there's a, I think there's a desire from both parties from someone who feels a little untainted of the last five, ten years or so. But you know, to that point I would not. I think Tucker Carlson is an important question about how where he wants to live in the political system. He is increasingly sounding.
- [36:48]
Stacey Abrams
I think he's gonna run for president.
- [36:50]
Asted Herndon
I don't think that's out of the question. He said it, he was on today explaining Vox and he said he was ruling it out. But he sounds like someone who is making an important distinction or at least positioning himself as kingmaker for that next nomination. I think someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene, like I think people who are making the argument that America first was betrayed have a, have a lane in in the Republican Party. And so I don't think that comes from the more like Liz Cheney anti Trump personally banned. And there's not really a desire for more of that like I would say principle disagreement. It's a critique from the right that is having some salience. And so I guess those two people, Margie Taylor, Tucker Carlson come to mind. I think like whether the Vance Rubio bromance last is a key question. I would even throw in somebody like to the non system point like RFK Jr who like has like which I think has hurt himself in other ways. But I think like that's my, that's what I'm saying about the brand of independence. Like I remember him really capitalizing on people's hate like dislike for both parties at a key time in 2024. And so I think somebody people who speak in that language will have will find some support. And the other thing is like you don't have to rely on those traditional gatekeepers as much as anymore. From a media way, from a donor way. There are ways to make yourself viable outside the kind of party anointing. And nobody knows that more than Donald Trump. And so he's like implicitly actually showed a roadmap for people on how you can go around the party and reshape it in your image. Now does that require his name recognition? Does that require his personality. Certainly those things made it easier, but I think some other people are going to try that.
- [38:48]
Stacey Abrams
We've talked about the underrepresented, we've talked about the shifting dynamics, but another place where you have really been on the leading edge are the religious dynamics of our politics. And as you've pointed out, there's an evangelical dimension that I think cuts across race and geography that often gets segmented or sometimes just overlooked. And I think there's a lot to unpack when we think about the religious dynamics of this moment, including some of the jaw dropping imagery that this administration has been sharing recently on their social platforms. And as someone who has reported on white evangelical voters, someone who knows how black evangelicals think about politics, how do you see this sort of authoritarian God complex affecting the Republican standing with that demographic? And then how do you see other voters who cite faith as a reason to vote? How are they responding and aligning themselves in this moment?
- [39:52]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I think that's an important question. I remember us talking to a lot of that evangelical community in 2022. And I remember being, you know, the way that they would contort themselves to make kind of excuses for Donald Trump's open disdain for religion. I mean, I would say open, like just total ignorance. Right. Like, if you looked at, through the, if you look through the principles of what evangelicals said they wanted from the Republican Party or from their leader, Donald Trump's flagrantly violated most of those. Right. And so I would, so we were going to most, I mean, just openly and so like we were going to a lot of them saying like, okay, what gives? And actually appreciated their clarity because a lot of, you know, Al Mohler, like, you know, Kentucky theologian who we had on the show made really clear to me, I have made a piece with the fact that I would prefer at that time we're talking about Doug Mastriano or people who were at the Capitol or I guess with anti democracy candidates versus someone who I think is against what I find to be an existential cultural war particular about LGBTQ stuff. And so they were, they made a choice about Donald Trump that was a understanding deal with devil that they are now arriving to some of that impact with. But I think that there are increasing questions about evangelical place overall in Republican Party. You know, obviously the rise of Catholicism And I think J.D. vance kind of pushing a wing of conservative Catholicism, particularly among younger voters, becomes an interesting piece of where Republicans go next. But, you know, I, or even the question of the changing sentiment around Israel, the most supportive groups you have around Israel right now are evangelicals. And so how does the party, if a lot of other people are moving in different directions, how does that party's capture, how does that group's capture on the Republican Party live? I think is an important thing. But I'm glad you mentioned kind of black evangelicals and others too, because I think sometimes when people talk about religious voters or faith voters, we only think white. Of course, when you think like religious Latinos are a huge important demographic, you know, like when we think of the, you know, if I could think about communities to focus on to actually answer the question of who will be post Trump, you know, the same way I say, like first generation Americans or, you know, groups, we're typically thinking, I would probably put faith based voters in that too, because I think that particularly as our demographics are changing, our assumptions about the way that moves ideologically are going to be broken down down because it doesn't look the same for all these groups. And there are a lot of different types of, I think, faith based voters increasingly inserting themselves in the spectrum.
- [42:38]
Stacey Abrams
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- [45:03]
Asted Herndon
Yeah, I mean, I think this is an important, intentionally provocative question, but I think we should notice just how, how thin that determinative power has even gotten recently. You know, if we think back to 2020, certainly, I think Joe Biden standing with black voters, particularly older ones, particularly Southern ones, ends up being the most important factor of that primary. But it's not as if without that late consolidation around Super Tuesday that the kind of Bernie esque coalition of younger voters, urban liberals, and particularly like emerging coalitions of Latinos and Asians that was winning, that was something that was creating some sort of. And I think you've seen folks like James Tyrico put that together in Texas. You've now seen Zoron, I really think, put together that in New York City, a coalition that wasn't built from those traditional Democratic groups. You know, when I was reporting that profile, you had a lot of anger from a kind of elder black generation, elder Puerto Rican generation, which in New York has really dominated kind of like typical racial minority politics at that time. And Zoran existed outside of that. And so I'm like, that shifting winds has been coming for a little bit. And I think really, to me, it's going to be an interesting part of that next primary. The other thing is that Black voters under 40 have already deeply changed their identity to the Democratic Party. And so as those traditional structures have less and less party identification, I just think that some of the rules we've told ourselves about South Carolina or rules we told ourselves about this place, get a little bit more complicated. And so, you know, that didn't come up in the clearest way last time. One, because black voters were largely united around a single candidate. And I think that was, that was the most important factor. But if that starts to spray, and I think particularly younger, younger generations, we are seeing some of that. I think some of the rules we've told ourselves about, you know, and I think particularly a moderate wing of Democratic Party, I would say when People ask, like what moderates look like in the national Democratic primary. It's not Pete Buttigieg as much as it is, you know, old ladies in the South. And I'm saying when we think about that wing of the party, they need those votes. And getting someone who can combine those wings is not as easy as I think some folks have assumed.
- [47:40]
Stacey Abrams
So instead, I'm going to give you our last question, which is homework. We like to give homework to our listeners. And your podcast really, I think, speaks to one of the reasons it's so important that people understand a broader media landscape. But it is so scattered and people can curate the information they want and they can hear their own beliefs repeated to them. So as someone who literally works for a place called Vox about listening or what's the number one thing you'd suggest our listeners do to stay not only informed and ahead of the curve, but to have a well rounded depth of knowledge on issues?
- [48:22]
Asted Herndon
Well, I can tell you what I do. I try to make sure that I not only like, do kind of a diversity of media that I'm reading or diversity of journalists I trust, but I gut check that, you know, by listening to people I don't trust, like listening to people I, I don't necessarily think of have, you know, I always agree with or whatever. And I think for me, like, particularly as I go into Republican or conservative areas or talk to those people or even some Democratic ones, non voters, independents, you know, folks who are young people disaffected from system. The fact that I. The fact that what their ideas that they're coming to me with aren't the first time I've heard them and that I, I have done enough work about understanding other people to not necessarily be shocked that you think this or that always does me well because there's a little bit of an assumed. They assume that there's a little bit of assumption of distance because you're a mainstream media member, because you're black or because you're young or all these things and it's like, no, I've heard this before and this is what I'm here actually to talk to you about. And so I would say putting like the respect of the respect other opinion enough to like legitimately listen is one piece of advice I would give.
- [49:37]
Stacey Abrams
Estad Herndon, thank you so much for joining me this week on Assembly Required, have a wonderful day. As always, at Assembly Required, we give you actionable tools to help make a difference. First, be curious, check out Asted's new podcast, America actually and his reporting for Vox. Next, let's solve problems. Authoritarianism and violence around the world have been a tremendous threat to press freedom. American reporter Ahmed Shihab el Din has been detained in Kuwait for the past six weeks. Visit the Committee to Protect Journalists to learn more about his unjust detention and sign a petition demanding his release. Consider donating to the Committee to Protect Journalists to help them continue their work on global press freedom. And third, let's do some good as Trump's war in the Middle east continues, the needs of members of our military, military families and veterans are often overlooked. Check out organizations like Operation Homefront, which provides relief and recurring family support for members of our military and helps members transition to civilian Life. Visit operation homefront.org to find ways to donate and get involved Assembly Required continues to grow its audience, but we need your help. We reach more people when you tell others about us. When you add us to your feed and share your favorite episode, make sure you actually subscribe on all of your platforms, not just one. Help us game the algorithm. You can boost our visibility by rating the show and leaving a comment. And you can always find us at YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. And please also check out my substack Assembly Notes, where we dive deep and where I share more of my thoughts on how we understand and then fight back against this authoritarian regime. Thank you to the thousands of you who've signed up for the Ticket Steps campaign@10stepscampaign.org and who signed up for the Read Them home initiative@readthemhome.org help us keep attention on family detention camps. That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Do good out there and I'll meet you here next week. Assembly Required is a crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasily's Faux Topolis. Thank you to Matt de Groat, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka Mantha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abra.