Jason Kander (6:07)

Pleased to be here.

Stacey Abrams (6:09)

Well, thank you. So last week it was reported that the Department of Veterans affairs is planning a so called reorganization and it will be cutting over 80,000 jobs from the agency. That's on top of existing concerns about VA staffing and the other implications of the changes with the Trump administration. So I want to start with a big picture question for you to get at the heart of why this matters so much. 1 what does the Department of Veterans affairs do? And then two, how could these massive personnel changes affect services?

Jason Kander (6:49)

Sure. So, one, what the VA does is it is, for the most part, a particularly the Veterans Health Administration is a massive, you know, healthcare operation. They run a lot of hospitals, they run all sorts of things. But the other thing it is, is it's in charge of benefits for veterans. So managing the benefits programs that are put in place by Congress and, you know, deciding who qualifies for them based on those parameters. Right. But a huge part of it is veterans hospitals, veterans medical care. Right. How these cuts affect it massively. And so what the Trump administration has said and what they're going to continue to say is, well, what we're not doing is we're not cutting frontline medical personnel. One, I know enough people at the VA to know that's just simply not true. When you have a rule across government that say things like, everybody has to come into the office now and there will be no more remote workers. Well, now, you've already cut some. Some people who are providing direct frontline medical care. But beyond that, anybody who's ever been to a doctor's office understands that if you were to walk into your doctor's office and the man or woman who you meet at the front of the office, who you check in with, who handles your insurance and that kind of thing, if that person disappeared and now you had to walk in and your doctor was the one doing all that, everybody understands that it would affect your medical care and it would affect how many people they could see, how many they could see a day, how long they could spend with those people, and how much they'd be able to concentrate on that medical care. So it is a massive disruption.

Stacey Abrams (8:21)

And then when we widen out from the hospital services, what are other services that vets look at the VA to secure?

Jason Kander (8:28)

Let's start with the stuff that people are more familiar with, like veterans disability. Right. If you have a service connected disability. I do. I have post traumatic stress from my service. There are people who administer that program who take the claims in, who handle the claims, who then service the claims. And then you have all sorts of other benefits as well. Right. You know, home loans and that sort of thing. But to really zoom out for a minute, it is a very popular occupation of politicians, and this has been true across both parties to just crap on the VA on a regular basis. And this works as a substitute for actually doing anything for veterans. Right. Like, we've been seeing this for generations, that if you're a Politician. And you want to act like you are, you know, somebody who cares about veterans. There's a couple things you do. One, you put a whole bunch of pictures of people in uniform on your website. And then two, you go out and you say, well, you know, we've really got to do something about the va. We got to make it more efficient, we got to do something about the backlog. And you demonize the va. If you talk to veterans who go to the VA for their services, of which I am one, most of them will tell you, yes, there are bureaucratic issues with the va, but once you are in the system and once you are getting careful, it is pretty phenomenal most of the time. And the reason for that is that the people who work at the VA do it by choice. The vast majority of people there, they're not just there. They don't just want a government job, they don't just want a healthcare job. They chose to work at the va and they work with veterans every single day. So when they are working with somebody who has a lower back problem, it's not the same as if you go for your lower back problem to a regular doctor. Now you're going to somebody who sees veterans all the time. And they are versant in the idea that, oh, you were in the infantry for your first two years, you carried £50 on your back over large distances. So we know a lot about your back problem and we know how to treat it very specifically. So all that is to say that when politicians, the Trump administration included, just demonize the VA and act like the problem has always just wasted the va, what they miss is that the real problem with the VA starts with Congress. Every single time that the United States Congress creates a benefits program for veterans, they do it with the wrong premise to begin with. And that premise is a question. That question is, how do we make sure nobody who doesn't deserve this benefit gets access to it? And when you start with that incorrect premise, you then one have to exclude a bunch of people who you believe don't deserve it. And I personally don't believe that there are veterans who don't deserve access to the system. But the other thing you do is even the veterans who you think do deserve it. Now you've created a labyrinthine system in order to keep out these so called undeserving veterans. And now the rest of us have to navigate that. And that's where you get the maze that politicians love to criticize, but they created it in Congress in the first place.

Stacey Abrams (11:21)

So, Jason, I wanted to take a step back, as you said, and go to just the fundamental question that I didn't think we would have to ask, but that I think underlies what you were just describing about Congress. Why should we care about the current attack on veterans? Why should that be a signal that puts everyone on edge, not just those who are directly impacted?

Jason Kander (11:47)

I will give you three reasons. One, if they can get away with politically coming after veterans, then nobody is safe. I mean, right. Like we have been. I mean, frankly, sometimes I think to an uncomfortable level, venerated and placed on a pedestal to a level that, you know, a lot of us are not comfortable with. And they may not be appropriate, but we have been politically. And if they can, if they can get away with that, they can come after whatever thing it is that you care about, no matter who you are. 2. A lot of people are familiar with the statistic that 22 veterans a day on average, take their own lives. What very few people know is the statistic within that statistic, which is out of that, 22, on average, 16 of those veterans that take their lives every day are not connected to any veteran specific service of any kind at the time that they take their life. Which means if you make it more difficult to access veteran services and you close that side aperture even more so it's even harder to get them, you absolutely will have more veteran suicide. And then the third reason is that we vastly underestimate the degree to which veterans still have a lot to offer as fully contributing members of our society. And when we make it that much more difficult to make the transition from the military back into civilian life by making these benefits that much more difficult to access, then we are just frankly missing out in the corporate world, in the nonprofit world, in the public sector, wherever, on a lot of really outstanding, highly trained people. But if we're not getting them what they need to transition out of the military and into civilian life, then we are gonna miss the benefit of those people in our communities.

Stacey Abrams (13:26)

You should run for office one day.

Jason Kander (13:28)

Thanks.

Stacey Abrams (13:32)

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Stacey Abrams (16:30)

So we know that cuts at the VA aren't the only ones that are impacting veterans. I mentioned at the top of the program vets comprise about 30% of the federal workforce as you just described. And that's in part due to the Veterans Preference act of 1944. And recently around 6,000 vets were laid off, with the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee suggesting that the number is likely higher due to ongoing cuts. So what are you hearing from fellow veterans about these job losses and what does it signal about what's happening in our country?

Jason Kander (17:04)

Let's forget Doge and Musk and Trump and that for a moment and let's just talk about where this philosophy comes from in the first place about the ease with which they, they cut government jobs, the ease with which they disrespect the people who have government jobs. I remember back when I was a state legislator and I was on the state budget committee, every year there was this amendment that they would try to pass the Republicans. And what it did is it it put a ceiling on any government employee's salary of $80,000. And their reasoning for that was with the lieutenant governor of Missouri has an $80,000 a year salary and that's the second most powerful person in the state. We would point out that the lieutenant governor in Missouri is a part time position and that it is usually somebody like a practicing attorney or something like that. Put that aside for a minute. What it all came from when you would talk to these Republican legislators was a genuine belief that if you were any good at what you do, you wouldn't be working in the government. Right. They didn't care that there were people who had PhDs and worked on public health or conservation and had chosen do government service because that's what they believe was the highest calling for them of using their expertise. They didn't care about that. They just fundamentally believed that if you were any damn good at all, you would be working in the private sector making a lot of money. And if you work in the government, it must be that you couldn't get one of those jobs. Now that was very familiar to me when I started to hear it because it reminded me a lot of when I was in college and it was right after 9, 11 and I volunteered for the army and I had all these, in this case, liberal professors who were acting like why would you go into the army? You got into college, right? So to me it was two different sides of the same coin. This belief that you only do a government job or you only do a military job if you don't have another option. What both of those point of views. Ms. Is that these are people who care about other people who came out of the military. And, you know, and I have experience with this and felt like I can't go from getting up every day and knowing what my mission is and believing in what I'm doing to getting up every day and being like, my job is to make the most money I can. It just didn't work for me, and it doesn't work for a lot of veterans. So how does it affect those veterans? It is not as simple as they lost their job and they lost their income. They're going to lose their sense of mission and they're going to lose their sense of belonging. And meanwhile, they were probably pretty damn good at what they did. And so we're going to miss out on the service that they're providing.

Stacey Abrams (19:43)

Well, in full disclosure, I served with Doug Collins in the Georgia General assembly, and Doug Collins is the new secretary of the va, and he and I actually served together on the Defense and Veterans Affairs Committee. And you referenced the fact that at the state level, there are implications for this, and I would love for you to take one more minute and really talk about not just the implications this has. And I love your framing of the sense of mission. There are also there's follow on effects. What implications will these cuts have on state services given how we have structured the way our government works?

Jason Kander (20:18)

We tend to think of veterans issues as a federal issue for obvious reasons. One, the military is the very definition of a federal entity, right? Combined with the fact that we have a whole cabinet department that is focused on veterans. But as somebody who has spent the last five years working in the field of veterans homelessness in the nonprofit sector, I can tell you that that is not how, you know, cities and counties and states interact with, say, veterans homelessness. They interact with it as homeless veterans are sleeping on city streets, they're sleeping in parks, they're having to take advantage of all sorts of city services just like other veterans. It's just that veterans are just like other homeless folks. But veterans are twice as likely to wind up homeless as the rest of the population, and they are disproportionately represented in the homeless. Pop. So that's one way, right, is that, you know, you don't have a patchwork of veteran services at the state and city level across this country that overlaps with federal services at all. It is entirely built, at best, to be complimentary to it, which means no one is filling in those gaps like state veterans commissions. For the most part. What they do is they run nursing homes for veterans, and that's like their main function and where the majority of their funding comes from. But as you can imagine, that is an extremely small part of the overall needs when it comes to serving veterans.

Stacey Abrams (21:46)

So I want to dig into the implications a little bit more because I think what you've just pointed out is so important that the across the board cuts to the government will impact veterans beyond what happens at the va. There are the state implications and then there's just what vets need. So we know that for example, during the recent budget process the Republican controlled US Senate refused to protect healthcare access for vets during the votorama. Then you have the executive order on DEI that slash programming for service disabled vets. You've got the likely cuts to Medicaid which would directly impact vets for two reasons. There's the nursing home issue you just raised because Medicaid supports a vast majority of those who are in nursing homes. I think it's like 60%. And then you have those vets who don't receive TRICARE, which is the health insurance program for military members, retirees and their families, namely the millions of National Guard reservists that were called up in the past 20 years. They don't get TRICARE all the time and they rely on Medicaid. So can you talk a bit about how this complicated patchwork of services that vets rely on will be affected not just by the direct attack on that's, but on the larger implications. And I think you laid it out beautifully when you talked about how we think about what happens in government. But let's talk a little bit about what this does to people on a daily basis.

Jason Kander (23:13)

Yeah. First of all, one thing to keep in mind is that to be a veteran who is accessing your benefits because of the way that Congress has set up benefits over the many years, I want to be clear, not because of the va. The VA is as frustrated with this system as anybody. It's again because of the way Congress has set things up. To be a veteran accessing your benefits is often to be a person on a scavenger hunt. And when you make that scavenger hunt more difficult, you've made the scavenger hunt more difficult and you've made and you know, it can be like a full time job. But I think that, you know, the bigger piece here is the fact that, and this is something that the public really doesn't know is that there's a high percentage of people who you or I or any common sense thinking American would consider a veteran who the federal government, and this is prior to the Doge stuff doesn't consider a veteran. You know, it's like 30% of people who have worn the uniform and sworn the oath, they don't even consider a veteran at all. We as Americans assume, hey, you were in the military. So I guess you can go to the VA and get all of your health care. Well, maybe if your insurance is going to pay for part of it and that kind of thing. But if you're above a certain income level or if you didn't serve long enough, or if you didn't deploy, if you didn't have some service connected disability, it's super hard and it shoots and ladders, right? Like, like I'm at a level where I can get access to mental health care as much as I need and I can get access to, you know, a lot of medical care, but I can't get dental. I'm not at that level. Right. And so it's a tiered system. Now, you can think of that what you want. But you know, and some people argue why it's good, some argue why it's bad. Obviously it's you, I guess, save some money by having a tiered system. But the bigger problem is, to your point, there are a lot of people who have some of the negative effects that some people end up with from serving in the military, but don't have any recourse. For instance, let's say you were in the Maryland Army National Guard and you were mobilized after January 6th and you spent five months on active duty at the Capitol, protecting the Capitol, and then you got out at the end of say a four year enlistment, but at no point during that time did you deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan or Kuwait or anywhere like that. And so the majority of your active duty time was training and it was being at the Capitol, right? Well, let's say that also at some point during that time you were the victim of military sexual trauma. All right? But it wasn't perfectly documented. Federal government doesn't consider you to be a veteran. That's the law. That's what it is. The federal government considers a person who never signed on the dotted line, never raised their right hand, and that person I just described to have the exact same equal opportunity to access the VA or any veteran specific benefits. That's nuts. But what it means is, is that when you cut other benefits that are for people who might be struggling for one reason or another, you are affecting a bunch of people who are veterans, but who the federal government with its jacked up narrow definitions, don't consider veterans. And by the way, like, as an aside, when we tell those people that they're not considered veterans, that has its own traumatic effect as well.

Stacey Abrams (26:28)

Now, I can only imagine. Well, we know the Associated Press has reported that veterans are speaking up. They've been confronting Republican lawmakers at town halls over the cuts. And as an example of how they're responding, I want us to take a listen to a clip from your neighbor, the Kansas Senator Roger Marshall's town hall that happened last week.

Unknown (26:51)

Right. Now, as far as cutting out those jobs, a huge percentage of those people and I know you care about the veterans.

Stacey Abrams (27:02)

Are veterans.

Layla Ireland (27:03)

Yes.

Stacey Abrams (27:04)

And that is damn shame.

Jason Kander (27:06)

Yes.

Layla Ireland (27:07)

Yeah.

Stacey Abrams (27:07)

That is a. I'm not a Democrat.

Unknown (27:10)

But I'm worried about the veterans, man. Well, I yielded to one of my, my elders and I appreciate his comments. I think it's a great. I'm not gonna. We don't have time for everyone to stand up. I do got two more commitments today. Appreciate everybody making the drive out and God bless America.

Stacey Abrams (27:47)

So Senator Marshall fully avoided his constituent questions and chose to end the town hall rather than answer what he and other Republicans are going to do about the dodge cuts that are impacting veterans. So how do you understand the silence of the gop? I mean, as someone who served in office, who ran for higher office, there's usually a bit of political ambition that surrounds and saves us. And you talked about this a bit at the top. But there's an explicit implication for folks that silence is consent, that this is an okay thing. And I think about how many military bases and by extension how many vets are living in congressional districts, living in Senate districts. How do you understand the silence?

Jason Kander (28:36)

I think that there is this jacked up concept of integrity on the right side of the political aisle right now for elected officials that is oddly similar to their conception of how markets work. And I think that when they look at markets, they think, well, if the market allowed it, then it must be virtuous, Right? Like if people will keep buying this product despite the fact that it is, you know, being, you know, assembled by children in a third world country, then I guess it's okay because the market has spoken and this behavior is fine. And they have taken this long held belief in unregulated capitalism and they've brought it into their concept of ethics and their concept of what is right and wrong. And so now, hey, look, generally political gravity and political physics would say, I can't just ignore veterans, I can't just ignore cuts to veterans and get away with it. But Trump got elected and he said all these terrible things about people who have served and he is the one who has all the power in my party right now and he has empowered Musk. So I guess it's virtuous now. I guess it's okay. I can substitute that very simple equation for my own concept of what is right and wrong that was hopefully bestowed to me by my parents. And I think that's basically what's happening. And to be honest, I think most politicians don't know a damn thing about veterans benefits to begin with. I've given like briefings and visits to veteran specific facilities to members of both parties who serve in Congress, in very high spots in places where they oversee veterans benefits. And the degree to which they lack the lexicon and the basic working knowledge of how these benefits work, including some of whom who are veterans, has always been very startling to me. And so I think that just as veterans look at the system of benefits and are sometimes overwhelmed by how difficult it is to navigate, I think that civilian politicians sometimes look at it and they're like, I don't understand how any of that works. And it's overwhelming to begin to. And so they just keep saying platitudes.

Stacey Abrams (31:05)

There was this New York Times article published this past Sunday on March 9th that exposed how recent cuts at the VA have brought vital clinical trials to a grinding halt. Most people don't realize that really important healthcare discoveries like how aspirin helps prevent heart attacks, that the first cardiac pacemaker, that the nicotine patch, were all developed by the VA. And with the hiring freezes, these trials that impact 10,000 veterans for diseases like lung cancer are now in jeopardy. So given what you've just described about the, the gulf of ignorance that is leading decision makers, what does it tell you about how investments and veterans can serve both vets and non vets alike? So for anyone who says, well that's not my issue, my, my, you know, my health insurance is fine. Why do they need to care about just how broad based these implications are?

Jason Kander (32:01)

Yeah, it's a great point. And what it comes down to is, is that it's really the only central healthcare program fully administered by the United States government from end to end. Which is why it gives you the opportunity to do this kind of research and to make these kinds of innovations. Right? Because we don't have single payer health insurance, we don't have socialized medicine in this country, with the exception of two places when you're in the military and when you come out of the military if you qualify for VA benefits and to go to the va. That's where so many of these innovations come from. It's why so many innovations in so many other places have come from the military, because you have an end to end ability to test things and to iterate.

Stacey Abrams (32:48)

I want to spend a few minutes. One I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about the work that you've been doing to serve homeless veterans. Because I think part of. Well, I know part of the mission of the show is to say even in these intractable, seemingly impossible spaces, there are things we can do. And you took it upon yourself to really tackle a challenge that affects 30,000 or more veterans every year. And that's the issue of homelessness. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you're doing?

Jason Kander (33:16)

Sure. I appreciate you asking. So the last few years, I've been the president of National Expansion at Veterans community project. It's vcp.org and what we do is we build villages of tiny houses for homeless veterans around the country. We are veterans who are serving veterans ar with the strength of the community. So basically, we use wraparound services that already exist in a community to help veterans transition from homelessness into being permanently housed and successful, fully contributing members of society again. And it's a really unique method that involves not just placing folks in an environment that they're really accustomed to and feels familiar because there's other people of shared experience, but it's really. And what's unique about it is it's about restarting the military to civilian transition over again so that people can really start over and be very successful. And it's really inspiring. I mean, you get the opportunity to see people reunited with their families. You get to see their dignity reignited. And the organization's really special. I mean, there are a lot of transitional housing places out there across the country that take people from homelessness and try and help them transition into permanent housing. If you find one that has a year where they get 30% of the people who come into their program transition into permanent housing, that's a banner year. Veterans Community Project, across all its locations, consistently runs at an 85% successful transition rate. Yeah. And so it's a very special place. It was very easy for me to get inspired to go and be a part of it. And now we're serving veterans In Kansas City, St. Louis, Sioux Falls, outside of Denver. We just broke ground in the Phoenix area, and we will break ground not too long in the future in Milwaukee, and then with other Places to go.

Stacey Abrams (35:04)

That's amazing.

Jason Kander (35:06)

Thanks.

Stacey Abrams (35:06)

So the other thing I want to talk about is your memoir, which I loved, Invisible Storm, which everyone should check out. Not only is he thoughtful and smart, he's an extraordinary writer. And I say this in front of him, so in that you do an exceptional job of revealing yourself. You talk about your challenges and how you navigated PTSD and depression. You talk about becoming, you know, being a rising politician who decided to step out of the spotlight. You talk about family. When you think about getting the help you needed in this moment, when people are feeling overwhelmed and they believe that there is no one coming, what words do you have for those who are worried? And then what words do you have for those who want to help?

Jason Kander (35:53)

Yeah, it's a great question. I feel like we basically, since 2016, have been undergoing at different levels of intensity at different times, a national trauma one day after the next. And I think that one of the things I learned after writing that book and after it came out was how many people out there were not giving themselves permission to treat just living in the modern world as the trauma that it is. I mean, put aside for a minute the fact that, you know, at least half the people you meet have had some sort of traumatic experience in their life, and it doesn't actually matter that much where it originated. And you can waste a lot of your own time trying to rank your trauma or your problems, whatever they may be, out of existence, but the truth is, there's really only one way out, and it's through. And it's generally therapy. And. And I just think, like, we ought to get access to, you know, mental health treatment the same way we get access to physical health treatment. And. And so if. If anything doesn't feel right, go see somebody. For instance. I have a real pretty strong anxiety about the concept of general anesthesia, going under general anesthesia, because one of the things about post traumatic stress is I. I have a real need to control my environments and my situation. You know, like I'm, you know, in Afghanistan. It was like I knew where the exits were. I knew, you know, that kind of thing. And that's never fully left my brain. And so this Friday, I. I'm getting a minor, not major, but, you know, but I have to go under general anesthesia for this medical procedure, and I'm pretty anxious about it. And the other day, my wife Diana said, hey, I think you should go see Nick. Nick is my therapist at the va, And I went to see Nick, and I feel a lot better. I'm still anxious, but I feel a lot better. And I got a friend who's got to do, like, a heart thing soon. Like, who am I to go be? Like, I need to go see a therapist to deal with my anxiety about going under general anesthesia. But then Diana reminded me, hey, it doesn't matter. You should. You'll feel better. And I did. And that's the analogy I would offer. And that's what I tried to make, the value proposition of the book.

Stacey Abrams (38:00)

Okay, you got one more thing to tell us. How do we get through this?

Jason Kander (38:04)

Ah, okay. I thought it was going to be a minor question. Yeah, well, let's see.

Stacey Abrams (38:12)

Just one tip. One tip. For folks who are listening, who feel overwhelmed, and to your point, the only way out is through what's one thing that someone can do today who's concerned about what you've just said, who believes that there should be some way that we can return to venerating those who've sacrificed so much for us and they want to have an effect? What's one thing, just one small thing they can do?

Jason Kander (38:39)

I'm going to give you one thing, but I'm also going to give you an accompanying piece of advice for the audience.

Stacey Abrams (38:43)

Okay?

Jason Kander (38:44)

The one thing is to remember that fighting and resisting is an outcome in and of itself, and that if you gauge whether or not anything good is happening is getting done based on whether or not the Trump administration is failing to do bad things, Right? If you do it based on whether they're losing at the Supreme Court on these things that are being stayed at the trial court, if you do it based on whether Congress is letting them do whatever they want, you're going to have a pretty miserable four years, Right? But if you focus on, is there an effort being mounted, and it can't be, are Democrats in Congress doing enough? Because you have no control over that. And to be honest, most of the Democrats in Congress have no control over that. The Republicans control the White House, the Supreme Court, and both houses of Congress. So if you are gauging whether or not anything positive is happening on outcomes, you're going to be deeply disappointed. However, if you are gauging it based on are we making it more difficult than they want it to be for them to do bad things? Are we depriving them of political capital wins? When they do bad things so that they don't have as much political capital to spend on the next bad thing, then you're going to be more satisfied. And some of the examples of that are things like you've seen the way Trump has had to reign musk in a little bit lately, you saw the way they had to back off that first memo they wrote out of OMB about spending. If you were to start at the beginning and say, that's a win, you would have said, that's not a win. Look at all the horrible things they're still doing. But we're gonna have an election at the midterm and we're gonna have another election. And if we are sustaining momentum and we are making a good argument, literally to our friends and family, because that's our responsibility, you know, so don't go crazy trying to get your cousin who voted for Trump not to, but you might want to have that conversation with them in front of their kids so that their kids are a little less likely to do it and be reasonable about it. And then the piece of advice that I would use to accompany it is that it is not your responsibility, any of us, to know everything that's happening. It is really okay to pull back and be like, you know what? I am not going to consume the news this week. And by God, it is perfectly fine to not have cable news on in the background all the time. And just people need to understand that if you have cable news or whatever on in the background or you're scrolling Twitter all the time, you are doing two things. One, you are giving yourself an unrealistic idea of what information the rest of the world is perceiving. Because if you're only hearing what they're telling you on msnbc, you cannot talk to your cousin who voted for Trump. You'll never be able to talk to them because in your mind it's gonna be, how could they possibly have done that when they know what I know? The other thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna drive yourself insane because you are going to feel like the world is constantly in crisis. And if you pull back a little bit, you'll realize that, yes, some happening, but your ability to impact those things are limited. And so if you figure out, where can I make an impact and let me focus on that, you'll be a lot happier. And you'll have the opportunity to do things like be present with your children, enjoy a Little League game without having to turn the conversation to politics, or even maintain a relationship with your cousin who you loved growing up and you would like to still have affection for. That would be. My advice is don't over consume. Figure out where you can make a difference and focus on that.

Stacey Abrams (42:29)

Jason Kander Friend leader awesome person. Thank you for joining us here on Assembly Required.

Jason Kander (42:34)

I love you very much and I appreciate you having me.

Stacey Abrams (42:37)

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Stacey Abrams (44:40)

Now I want to focus on specific groups within the veterans population that have come under attack during the Trump administration. Joining me is retired army veteran Layla Ireland, a member of Sparta Pride, a group of trans service members and veterans dedicated to making the US Military inclusive. Layla Ireland Ireland welcome to Assembly Required.

Layla Ireland (45:01)

Aloha Stacey, thank you so much for having me today.

Stacey Abrams (45:04)

Well, I am delighted to have you. And I want to start with your general reaction to the Trump administration's approach to the va, to the leadership that they are uplifting at the Department of Defense, and, of course, the attack on dei, diversity, equity, and inclusion, which includes women, people of color, and groups like the transgender community. And we'll get into specifics more heavily a little later on. But overall, I want to understand how you see this moment as a veteran and as an American, as a veteran.

Layla Ireland (45:37)

And as a spouse in active duty service member who also identifies as transgender as well. This is discouraging, disheartening, and really sets a precedence for a lot of really negative things to happen within our government and within our communities. Right now, we're seeing a slew of attacks on our veterans community that really have dedicated their lives to serving this country and leaving us out on a limb where we're unsure of our future and what that entails for the people that we serve.

Stacey Abrams (46:13)

We know you enlisted in 2003 as a human intelligence collector. You then reclassified as a combat medic after your first tour in operation Iraqi Freedom 2005, 2006. Service has been integral to how you think about who you are, what inspired you to serve, and how does that inspiration feel in this moment?

Layla Ireland (46:36)

Yeah, you know, I come from a long legacy of service in my family. My father was in the military, and my grandfather, my great grandfather. And so essentially, being a part of that legacy was a no brainer for me. And seeing, you know, reflecting on my service in these last years really allows me to be a part of a bigger picture, a bigger thing for our nation and the people that we serve.

Stacey Abrams (47:02)

At the top of the program. I mentioned that my grandfather served in World War II and in the Korean War and kept coming back to a United States that allowed segregation, in fact, enforced aggressive segregation. And he would tell us that his patriotism had to be bigger than the country because the country didn't see him as fully a part of who we are. You served during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. Can you share what it was like being part of the LGBTQIA community in the military during that time?

Layla Ireland (47:36)

You know, I want to start off with saying that what greater proof of patriotism is there than willingly placing one's life on the line for a country that too often fails to see or fool humanity? Having served under the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, the implementation of that policy, seeing the ban lifted on that, and continue to serve under the trans ban as well, we have A very rich history, a very long, rich history. And when we look at our history, the rhetoric that was being used against the LGBTQ people in the military or women in service or African Americans in service has been proven wrong every single time. For myself, in my service, what I've noticed is that every time we have proven that wrong, our service, our ranks, our military has emerged much stronger because we are able to bring our full selves to the front line and to the mission. And I think that's what's important. And we talk about currently dei, and DEI plays a huge part in allowing our talent pool, our exemplary service, to be able to be showcased in a way that allows everyone to be a part of that conversation. So if we continue to have that, if we allow that idea to be able to foster a greater workforce, a greater fighting force, then we are able to really, truly be efficient and as strong as we say we are.

Stacey Abrams (49:01)

I think that's so important, and I want to get into that more deeply and to set it up, I want you to talk us through President Trump's current attacks on trans service members. I mean, they didn't just start in this administration. He targeted the population during his first term as well with the trans service ban. But talk about what's different this time and what it means for you and for others when you see this whiplash in our. In our laws and in our rules.

Layla Ireland (49:31)

When we're comparing the two terms. Right. In the most layman's terms, I will say that the first term was just Trump coming in, taking his administration, dipping his toes into the water, and seeing what is going on. You know, during Trump's first term, his administration established a foundation of restrictive policies that targeted trans and LGBTQ people. He reinstated the ban on trans service, which effectively barred trans people from serving openly and restricted the access to necessary medical care. And it fostered instability, fear, and the loss of exceptional talent in the armed forces. So there was a lot of things that he did. He also rolled back Title IX protections and civil rights safeguards for trans students and workers, and it undermined equal access to education and employment. So when we look at his first term, literally it is just him, him and his administration dipping their toes in the water, testing the waters out, seeing what he can and cannot do. And when he said he was going to come back, he came back for that second term and did exactly what he saw he could do the first time. He escalated these attacks with a series of executive orders. And I think this is what we're in our first. A month And a half of him being in office, he has signed 89 executive orders. And a lot of those executive orders which have policies that are now currently being implemented, are in regard to trans people, particularly in the guise of morality and unit cohesion or keeping women safe. But that's not what it is, right? This targeted purge, it threatens our military readiness, national security, community effectiveness, and the fundamental well being of LGBTQ Americans. These policies do not merely impact those directly targeted. They degrade the overall effectiveness, integrity, and global standing in the US and the armed forces.

Stacey Abrams (51:26)

We know that this new policy, it says within 30 days, the Pentagon must identify service members with, quote, gender dysphoria and disqualify them from service, remove them from their roles. What have you been hearing from trans service members who've been told that they're no longer welcome in the military?

Layla Ireland (51:48)

Yeah, I have goosebumps just listening to you ask that question. It is again, I think it's really disheartening and discouraging. You have tons of thousands of service members who are currently serving in austere environments in roles that require so much training and time invested. And so the pulse of our people, if I may, is that, yes, it is growing increasingly difficult every day, but the pulse of our members is that they're going to lace up their boots, put that uniform on, and continue to show up every day and do the job they have been trained and entrusted to do until the very last moment they are ordered not to. As the former Sparta membership director from 2016 to 2021, I have been able to see the hardship that we have faced, the fight that we started in the beginning, and to see where we're at. And I have offered my voice when our service members are literally being silenced and not able to speak for themselves. You know, trans service members just want to continue serving. They want to be able to have the opportunity to keep using the skills that the military and this nation has invested in them as war fighters. Evidence shows that for the last decade, trans service members have been openly serving and they've upheld, you know, the highest standards in excellence. They have served with distinction, excelled in their careers, and continue to be the leaders that we need in our communities, within their units and communities. So there's no reason to deny trans service members or trans Americans the opportunity to serve this nation.

Stacey Abrams (53:21)

We know that anti trans rhetoric has long been a staple of the Republican Party, extending beyond military band. And in fact, Trump used the State of the Union address last week to vent on several false and troubling rants that dehumanize the trans community. And unfortunately, we're starting to see some of that creep into the left. What do you want to see those people of good conscience step up and do to advocate for the trans community?

Layla Ireland (53:55)

Yeah, you know, the folks on the left, I don't. I think I have a good understanding of how politics work. I've been working with folks on the hill for over a decade now, and I've learned how to hear and see through the noise. And I think a lot of us have. I've watched you do the exact same thing and on the trail that I don't think that the responsibility of serving this population better falls just to the Democrats. I believe collectively there are measures that both parties can work towards for a more inclusive society that respects and protects the rights for all people. Both parties can absolutely work on reducing bureaucratic hurdles against each other and the communities and fostering a more collaborative mindset for the constituents and communities that they've been voted on to serve. But in my honest opinion, for the folks on the left, they need to communicate their policies and their ideas more clearly and much more assertively. They have to emphasize their benefits in a way that. That's both compelling and accessible to the folks on the other side of the aisle and to the general public. So there's definite. There's a definite shift in politics right now. And we're seeing people kind of just sit back and with their popcorn and just, you know, the folks on the right are just eating their popcorn like, I'm gonna wash my hands and let what happened happen. The folks on the left cannot do that. We cannot afford to do that. We need to be more assertive in fighting this and standing up for the trans community as well.

Stacey Abrams (55:22)

Layla, I want to close out with my favorite question, which is what can our audience do to support service members, including trans service members, who are struggling right now? And I want you to take this moment to plug the work that you do with Sparta Pride, the work with Sparta.

Layla Ireland (55:38)

We're fostering a community, a space for our trans service members and folks who are potential candidates to enlist into the military. These are people that are volunting their time and their sacrifice and their dedication to serve this country. But when we talk about what we. What our communities can do to better serve the trans community, our veterans as well, to better serve our veterans, particularly, you know, where infrastructure lacks, we must extend. We must extend the olive branch to a lot of people. We have to be open minded. We have to present with open arms and open hearts our veterans have sacrificed their time, their life, their families. And that cannot go unnoticed just because they identify a certain way, just because they love a certain type of person, just because they pray a certain way. We need to remember that these people have sacrificed, have made all those sacrifices in order for us to be able to sit here and exist. And that's what trans service members are asking for. That's what transit veterans are asking for. The dignity and respect that they deserve for the contribution they have given our communities and this nation and the security of that and being able to just be seen as equals. We are not a monolith. We are not martyrs. We. We are just. We are the people that have done this so you can breathe and live and. And do all the things you want to do. And at the end of the day, if you can see me as equal, then I've done my job by sharing that message with everyone.

Stacey Abrams (57:18)

Well, I'm going to leave it there because that was a perfect, perfect answer. Layla Ireland, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your service, and thank you for the support you're giving to so many millions who need to know that you're out there.

Layla Ireland (57:30)

Thank you so much, Stacey. I appreciate you having me today.

Stacey Abrams (57:38)

As always, on assembly required, we like to give our audience actionable tools for facing the challenges of today. So here's this week's toolkit in which we will encourage you to be curious, solve problems, and do good. First, let's get some support. The cuts inside the Department of Veterans affairs are putting millions of our service members in jeopardy. But many dedicated organizations outside the VA provide crucial support for our veterans. Check out or support the organizations our amazing guests mentioned, like the veterans community, projectcp.org, which builds tiny houses for veterans in need. And visit spartapride.org which provides essential resources for transgender people who are currently serving or have previously served in the military. Number two, let's use your resources. That's how we can solve problems. If you're a veteran or know a veteran who has recently been fired due to mass layoffs, check out thepublicservicealliance.com for support and resources and references to other locations. And three, here's how you can do some good Keep up to date. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Things are moving fast during this term, and it's purposefully hard for you to keep track of all the changes. If you want to stay informed about the ongoing layoffs in the federal government, including the va, I encourage you to read trusted sources like the Associated Press and the New York Times. You can also visit CNN's tracker type in Tracking Federal Workforce Firings to locate their site. Remember, you can find the toolkit recommendations online for each topic because we know it's hard to remember everything, especially if you're listening on the podcast website. Click View Episode for all the details. And if you're watching on YouTube, just expand the episode description and you'll find recommendations to learn more and do more. And as a final reminder, we can be found wherever you get your podcast, including on YouTube. If you want to tell us what you've learned or solved, send us an email@assemblyrequiredrookket.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be Featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509 that wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. I'll meet you here in two weeks. Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked Media production. Our lead show producer is Ilona Minkowski and our associate producer is Paulina Velasquez. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer and Samantha Slosberg for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Herringer and me, Stacey Abrams. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

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Layla Ireland (61:32)

And so as a Black woman in.

Stacey Abrams (61:35)

Recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for.

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Stacey Abrams (61:43)

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Know that no matter what happens, you will be okay.

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