Multiple Choice: Johns Hopkins' Ashley Berner on Educational Pluralism | GSVtv Podcast

Summary

ASU+GSV Summit Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: Multiple Choice: Johns Hopkins' Ashley Berner on Educational Pluralism | GSVtv Podcast
Date: July 20, 2026
Guest: Dr. Ashley Berner, Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy
Host: Electra Frelinghuysen

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Episode Overview

This episode features a thought-provoking conversation between host Electra Frelinghuysen and Dr. Ashley Berner, a leading expert on educational pluralism and author of Educational Pluralism and American Democracy (2024). The discussion centers on defining educational pluralism, its historical context in the U.S., the relationship between school choice, accountability, and innovation, as well as the prospects for bipartisan collaboration to advance equitable educational options nationwide.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Educational Pluralism vs. School Choice

• Educational Pluralism is explained as a system where the government funds a wide array of schools equally, maintaining common academic standards across all forms—public, private, religious, and otherwise.
  • Dr. Berner:
    • “Educational pluralism is simply a term to describe the way that most countries in the world structure education by funding a wide variety of schools equally and holding them to the same kind of academic standard.” (00:42)
    • Countries like the Netherlands (with 36 school types), Belgium, UK, France, Sweden, Poland, Canada, and Indonesia exemplify this model.
• School Choice in the U.S. context is framed as an exception—an alternative to the district school “norm of uniformity.”
  • “School choice, which I support, is a very US-focused term... it kind of reflects that norm of uniformity.” (01:22)

2. Historical Roots: Why the U.S. Is an Outlier

• In the 19th century, the U.S. initially funded various types of schools, including Catholic and Jewish institutions, with public funds, especially in urban centers.
• A surge in Catholic immigration triggered a nativist backlash.
  • “The white Anglo Saxon Protestant majority felt threatened... they felt that Catholics couldn't be good American citizens. And so you had, after the Civil War, an alliance between the post-Civil War Republican Party and grassroots groups like the Ku Klux Klan that were vehemently anti-Catholic, vehemently anti-Catholic school funding.” (02:32)
• The push for a “uniform school system” became embedded in state constitutions—a legacy of that cultural conflict.
  • “We had this influx of immigrants that spawned a nativist movement that took us into this uniform structure. And now it's kind of baked into our mindset.” (03:48)

3. Innovation vs. Accountability: Do They Clash?

• A common misconception is that choice/innovation and academic rigor/accountability are at odds.
• Dr. Berner argues that true innovation should serve the fundamental goals of education:
  • “Innovation in service of the purpose of education, which is social mobility, citizenship preparation, academic success for everyone... innovation in service of that is fantastic.” (04:41)
• Citing Deja Toll’s Course Mojo as an example of innovation that complements—rather than competes with—rigorous content.

4. Looking Ahead: The Future of Pluralism in the U.S.

• Dr. Berner expresses hope for substantial, meaningful school options in every state, especially benefiting low-income families.
  • “I'm hopeful that every state in this country will have meaningful options for all parents, particularly for low income families. And I also hope that there's a simultaneous move towards academic rigor...” (05:58)
• Highlights two key challenges:
  • Structure: Access to options for low-income families.
  • Content: Alarmingly low proficiency in US history and reading among students.
• “I think we need to address that, too. So I'm hopeful that... there will be pressure on high quality instructional materials, high quality instruction and outcomes so that kids really have a chance.” (06:38)

5. The Polarization of School Choice & Building Bipartisan Coalitions

• Despite the topic’s tendency to polarize, Dr. Berner sees bipartisan progress, particularly at the state and local level:
  • “The bipartisan coalitions tend to form at the state level, sometimes local level, when there's a tipping point towards choice... there's a lot of bipartisan agreement about how to make school choice accessible and accountable.” (07:18)
• She notes encouraging trends among Democrats and cites Democrats for Education Reform.
  • “I am really encouraged by the deeper pressure on Democrats to join the choice table. I think that's very promising.” (07:38)
• Emphasizes the importance of toning down divisive rhetoric:
  • “The best chance for real collaboration is when school leaders put their rhetorical weapons down and don't diminish public schools, don't diminish charter schools. I feel like we have a responsibility to tone down the rhetoric and stop mudslinging.” (08:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Most countries actually do what we call choice instinctively... They don't pit sectors against each other.” — Dr. Ashley Berner (00:57)
• “In the 19th century, we used to fund educational pluralism... but after the Civil War... that was the origin of our district school.” (02:24–02:58)
• “Only 13% of our 12th graders are competent in US history, you know, 30% of our 4th graders can read. And so I think we need to address that, too.” (06:25)
• “The next generation isn't so mindful of what kind of school it is, as much as where do I want to put my child and how high is the quality.” (08:02)
• “We have a responsibility to tone down the rhetoric and stop mudslinging.” (08:21)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:07–01:22: Defining educational pluralism & distinction from school choice
• 02:09–03:48: U.S. historical context—roots of the uniform school system
• 04:11–05:32: Innovation and accountability—compatible, not competitive
• 05:56–06:58: Vision for pluralism’s future; challenges of structure and content
• 07:15–08:44: Polarization, bipartisan coalitions, and calls for civil discourse

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is deeply informed, accessible, and optimistic. Dr. Berner offers historical depth, cross-national comparisons, and solutions-oriented thinking, all while stressing collaboration and the need to minimize divisiveness in the education debate.

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This summary captures the heart of Dr. Berner's compelling advocacy for educational pluralism, providing a roadmap for listeners interested in understanding the nuances, history, and future challenges of equitable school choice in America.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone. I'm Electra Frelinghuysen and I'm here with Ashley Berner. Ashley is the co founder and director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and the nation's leading expert on educational pluralism. She is the author of two books on the subject, most recently Educational Pluralism and American Democracy, released by Harvard education press in 2024. So I want to start out with a question that seems kind of easy but isn't always. Which is, what is educational pluralism or school choice?

[B]

Good question. So I'm so glad you asked. So educational pluralism is simply a term to describe the way that most countries in the world structure education by funding a wide variety of schools equally and holding them to the same kind of academic standard. So the really interesting thing when we pull back from the United States con context is to note that most countries actually do what we call choice instinctively. So The Netherlands funds 36 different kinds of schools equally and holds them to the same content standards. Belgium, the uk, France, Sweden, Poland, most provinces of Canada, Indonesia, many provinces in Africa, all fund all kinds of schools. They don't pit sectors against each other. So that's educational pluralism. And I actually, I love talking about that as opposed to simply school choice. So school choice, which I support, is a very US focused term that is essentially asking for an exception to the norm of district school. So if you're saying I want school choice, that means I want anything other than the district school. And it kind of reflects that norm of uniformity.

[A]

Right. Okay. So you've talked about other countries that sort of already have this figured out. Why is the US an outlier? And why. Why is it so different for us here?

[B]

Very interesting. So the reason why we are an outlier now is because in the 19th century, we used to fund educational pluralism. We used to fund all different kinds of schools equally, particularly in the urban centers. There were Catholic schools that were tax funded, Jewish schools in New York that were tax funded. Most small towns and big cities had a wide variety of schools that were funded by tax levies. And that was very much the norm. But in the 19th century, there were so many Catholic immigrants who came to our country that the white Anglo Saxon Protestant majority felt threatened. They didn't want to fund Catholic schools because for various reasons, they felt that Catholics couldn't be good American citizens. And so you had, after the Civil War, an alliance between the post Civil War Republican Party and grassroots groups like the Ku Klux Klan that were vehemently anti Catholic, vehemently anti Catholic school Funding. And that was the origin of our district school. So those legislature after legislature said, we're not funding Catholic education, we're not funding, quote, sectarian education, only one kind of school. So many of our state constitutions actually have the term uniform school system built in. So that's why we're outliers. We had this influx of immigrants that spawned a nativist movement that took us into this uniform structure. And now it's kind of baked into our mindset, so.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, so I want to also jump to the present moment, which is we've talked a lot about accountability and innovation in some of our other conversations, and I think the two can sometimes be framed as things that are at odds. But you've argued that choice and rigor have to go hand in hand. So how does that work in practice? And where do you see the points of tension between those two things?

[B]

That's a really important question because we do sometimes see the argument that innovation for the sake of innovation is a good. And I would say innovation in service of the purpose of education, which is social mobility, citizenship preparation, academic success for everyone. If that's the goal of why we tax people for other people's children, innovation in service of that is fantastic. So, for example, Deja Toll's course mojo has this great innovative tutoring system that sits on top of high quality instructional materials that is an example of in service too. But they should be. You're right, they shouldn't be in opposition. I think it gets back down to remembering what the end goal is and serving that through whatever means.

[A]

Right. Yeah, that's a helpful framing. I think I have two kind of big picture future questions to end on. The first is that there's a huge range of how pluralism or school choice is being implemented across the country today. It looks very different based on what state or even district you're in. What do you think the next five or ten years will look like?

[B]

Oh, that's a. I. I mean, that's it, right? What will it look like? I'm hopeful that every state in this country will have meaningful options for all parents, particularly for low income families. And I also hope that there's a simultaneous move towards academic rigor, because one thing we know is there's the problem of structure, which low income families don't have access to the options that wealthy families do. That's why we need choice options. But the other problem is one of content, which is only 13% of our 12th graders are competent in US history, you know, 30% of our 4th graders can read. And so I think we need to address that, too. So I'm hopeful that even if it's. Even if it's not compulsory, that there will be pressure on high quality instructional materials, high quality instruction and outcomes so that kids really have a chance.

[A]

Yeah, I love that vision. Last question. So we've seen that this can be a pretty polarizing topic, and I know that you're speaking on a panel about that later today, so I don't want to spoil it all. But where do you see bipartisan coalitions forming in this space?

[B]

So the bipartisan coalitions tend to form at the state level, sometimes local level, when. When there's a tipping point towards choice. So there's a lot in places like North Carolina behind the scenes, there's a lot of bipartisan agreement about how to make school choice accessible and accountable. We'll be talking later to Jorge Alorza, who's head of Democrats for Education Reform. I am really encouraged by the deeper pressure on Democrats to join the choice table. I think that's very promising. And I think we also see bipartisan coalitions in places like Washington, D.C. where there's so much charter choice and so much district options like there is in Miami, that people are putting their weapons down. And the next generation isn't so mindful of what kind of school it is, as much as where do I want to put my child and how high is the quality. I guess I would say the best chance for real collaboration is when school leaders put their rhetorical weapons down and don't diminish public schools, don't diminish charter schools. I feel like we have a responsibility to tone down the rhetoric and stop mudslinging.

[A]

Thank you. Ashley. It's always awesome to talk to you. I feel myself nodding along to everything you're saying.

[B]

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity and for all putting this together. It's just a remarkable conference.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you.