10 Red Flags You're Living With a Dangerous Man

Summary

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Australian True Crime – Episode Summary

Episode Title: 10 Red Flags You're Living With a Dangerous Man

Podcast: Australian True Crime
Host: Meshel Laurie (Bravecasting)
Air Date: July 16, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Australian True Crime dives deep into the warning signs of coercive control and domestic abuse with a focus on the manual "10 Red Flags You're Living With a Dangerous Man," authored by former prisoner and advocate Pete Bates. Joined by producers Matthew Tankard and Ruby Bartzis, and later by special guest Belinda Bates (Pete's partner and former prison guard), Meshel Laurie explores the subtle and overt dangers many women face in their own homes. The discussion weaves together practical signs of abuse with personal experiences and advice for those at risk.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Pete and Belinda Bates (00:18–01:51)

• Background: Pete, previously incarcerated for murder after a tumultuous, violent youth, and Belinda, a former prison guard, now dedicate their lives to domestic violence advocacy.
• Purpose: They’ve developed resources—most notably, short practical manuals—to help women recognize abusive relationships.
• Context: The episode’s urgency is heightened by recent spikes in partner violence in Australia.

2. The 10 Red Flags (01:51–08:14)

Meshel, Ruby, and Matthew unpack Pete’s list of red flags that indicate dangerous control in relationships, sharing insights and real-world examples along the way.

Red Flag Breakdown:

• Red Flag 1: Normal things now feel dangerous (02:30)

  • Example: Scrutiny over minor activities—from eating and resting to visiting friends.
  • Quote: “The basic needs now require his approval.” – Ruby (02:37)
  • Example: Checking odometer to see if extra kilometers have been driven. (02:48)

• Red Flag 2: You shrink to stay safe (03:24)

  • Behaviors: Speaking less or differently, not raising concerns.
  • Quote: “Your body already knows the cost of setting him off.” – Ruby (03:35)

• Red Flag 3: The rules change daily (03:46)

• Red Flag 4: Silence is weaponized (03:50)

  • Emotional punishment by withholding communication.

• Red Flag 5: You are isolated quietly (04:05)

  • Isolation starts with guilt and tension, not outright bans.
  • “Your world getting smaller…” – Ruby (04:19)

• Red Flag 6: You are monitored (04:30)

  • Increasing use of tech: apps/phone checks, constant questioning.
  • “Who were you with? Why didn’t you answer?” – Ruby (04:43)
  • Discussion of boundary-crossing among teens (Snapchat passwords) (05:13–05:37)

• Red Flag 7: He rewrites reality (gaslighting) (05:55)

  • Denies, minimizes, blames: sowing doubt on partner’s memory/intent. (06:02)

• Red Flag 8: His protection feels like control (06:11)

  • “I trust you; I’m just making sure everyone else is behaving.” – Meshel (06:21)

• Red Flag 9: Two different men (06:38)

  • Charming in public; cold or frightening in private.
  • “You just never know what’s happening inside someone’s house…” – Ruby (07:02)

• Red Flag 10: Your body is already on alert (07:47)

  • Physical and psychological signs: tight chest, flinching, insomnia.
  • “Your body knows—your body rejects the bad things.” – Ruby (07:48)

Resource: The manual, available free at petebatesproject.com, is highlighted as a practical tool for women at risk.

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3. Belinda Bates: Personal Story & Relationship Dynamics (08:32–19:29)

• Relationship Origin: Belinda describes meeting Pete in prison—initial chemistry, slow-building trust via written correspondence (08:32–11:11).

• Challenges: Facing family and societal skepticism due to Pete’s history; her personal experience with coercive control colors her perspective (11:11–14:22).

  • “She was scared for me, like, I’m not going to lie…But she knew me and she thought, well, this is what you want, with you 100%.” – Belinda on family support (13:04)

• Romance and Reality: Reflection on the unique intensity of prison romance and a smooth transition to life together after release—a rarity (14:40–18:54).

  • “When a bloke’s in jail, he’s the most romantic. You’ve never met a more romantic guy.” – Meshel (14:40)
  • “I just didn’t really think about it until he came home, which was surreal...But I tell you what, very very strong man.” – Belinda (16:40)

• Longevity and Fulfillment: The relationship’s strength, partnership, and mutual support in advocacy work. (18:07–18:54)

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4. Breaking the Cycle & Advocacy Work (19:29–24:10)

• Turning Trauma into Purpose: Both Pete and Belinda draw on their painful pasts to help others.

  • “It’s actually been really good medicine...putting it together...making a change, changing your patterns…” – Belinda (19:29)

• Systemic Challenges: Pete’s transformation in prison—education, emotional growth—initiated by simple acts of kindness (21:19–21:35).

• Focus On Early Intervention: Educating about unseen abuse (coercive control) is a core goal; not just focusing on physical signs, but outward behavioral patterns that can be identified early.

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5. Gendered Nature of Abuse & The Need for Change (24:10–29:37)

• Statistics: Recognition that most perpetrators are men, though men and children can be victims too.

• Barriers to Reporting: Fear, lack of resources, and hesitance to seek police help keep many victims trapped (24:10–25:02).

• Denial and Danger: Underestimating the risk can be a deadly mistake.

  • “Don’t assume that...he’s not a murderer. Don’t assume that under enough pressure...any woman could be next week’s victim.” – Meshel (25:02)

• Cultural Patterns: Intergenerational cycles of violence—children raised in violent homes may subconsciously replicate behaviors (27:05–28:49).

• Demonisation vs. Realistic Approaches for Men: A discussion about whether current narratives and supports help men change or hinder them from seeking help.

  • “Are we making it impossible for men to seek help because we’re demonising them?” – Meshel (29:02)
  • Mention of "Hard Cuddles" and "Walking with Dads" as examples of male-focused support programs (30:04–30:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Your body already knows the cost of setting him off.” – Ruby (03:35)
• “He does not need to yell to punish you.” – Ruby (03:56)
• “Your world getting smaller, you and your family...So you think, well, okay, I won’t see my family. Then he can’t accuse me.” – Meshel (04:21)
• “You just never know what’s happening inside somebody’s house, somebody’s relationship—especially with social media, all looks happy.” – Ruby (07:02)
• “If you continue to keep speaking out, naming these patterns, maybe you just won’t ever get to that point for somebody.” – Belinda (24:10)
• “Don’t underestimate it...don’t assume that he’s not a murderer...any woman could be next week’s victim.” – Meshel (25:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Discussion of Red Flags: 02:30–08:14
• Belinda’s Story – Meeting Pete: 08:32–12:19
• Family/Friend Reactions: 12:19–14:22
• Realities of Prison Romance: 14:22–18:54
• Transformation & Advocacy: 19:29–24:10
• Barriers, Gender & Societal Change: 24:10–31:38
• Male Accountability & Support Systems: 29:02–31:38
• How to Access Resources: 31:45–32:19

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Closing Thoughts

The episode is an honest, deeply empathetic exploration of coercive control and the insidious ways dangerous men isolate and dominate their partners. Pete and Belinda Bates, through their lived experiences, offer relatable and actionable advice. Their story is both sobering and inspiring—a testament to personal growth, the power of early intervention, and the ongoing fight for women's safety in Australia.

For more information and resources, including the “10 Red Flags” manual, visit petebatesproject.com.

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Transcript

[A]

This break is brought to you by Adobe Creative cloud.

[B]

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[A]

creative toolkit, Creative Cloud.

[B]

This is Australian True Crime with Michelle. Laurie and I have two special guests to help us kick off this week. Producers Matthew Tankard.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

And Ruby Bartzis. Hello, guys. We are here because we're sort of in betwixt and in between two guests who are related.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Last week we had Pete Bates on, and this week we have his missus, Belinda Bates. These two met, I'm gonna say they met at work, except one of them wasn't allowed to go home at the end of the day. And that's because the workplace was a prison. Pete was a prisoner. He was serving time for murder. And Belinda was a guard. A prison guard. And she was there as part of a, what, addiction unit?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Pete was a mentor because by that stage he had overcome addiction in prison. So it's a great story. He front foots it. You know, he is a guy who says, yes, I committed a murder at 19. It was the worst thing anyone could possibly do. And I feel sorry.

[C]

He was in a brawl, right?

[B]

Yes, he was in a brawl. Go back and let him explain to you what happened. And we're not. Obviously, we're not excusing it. He's not excusing it. But what he has chosen to do with his life now, he and his wife Belinda is, is to advocate for people in domestic and family violence situations. Because Pete himself grew up in a very violent household. And one of the things he does is he writes these books, short books, short manuals that you can find on his website. They're either free or very, very cheap. This one caught our eye and this one is free. I think it's incredibly valuable. It's 10 red flags. What's it called?

[D]

10 red flags. You're living with a dangerous man.

[B]

I mean, we in Australia have had a hideous couple of weeks in terms of violence, intimate partner violence against women. So what better time to talk about this? Because I always say the first thing I always think of is who's next week's victim. We know roughly, a woman a week ordinarily dies in Australia at the hands of a partner or a previous partner who's next week's lady. Does she know she's at risk? Well, this is the kind of thing that maybe can help people understand when they're at risk and maybe avoid it, avoid their risk. The first red Flag Ruby. Normal things now feel dangerous.

[D]

Yeah. So Pete writes this as, like, the basic needs now require his approval. So not Pete's approval.

[A]

The.

[B]

The man in your life.

[D]

The man in your life. And then it just breaks it down to, like, eating, resting, speaking, leaving the house, seeing people. These are the basic needs that don't feel simple anymore.

[C]

I remember Pete saying growing up that his dad would look at the. The odometer on the car, and so if his mum would go to the shops to go pick up some groceries, he would then look at it, be like, did she add an extra K? Did she go elsewhere? Like that kind of surveillance.

[B]

Yeah. He knew how far away it was. And I mean, God, these days with phones and. Yeah, you know, there's lots of ways to track a loved one. Normal things now feel dangerous. Do you feel like, oh, no, I'm going to be late home, this is going to be a drama. Or, oh, no, if he finds out my friend came over. Things like that. Yeah, you shrink to stay safe. What does that mean? That's flag number two.

[D]

Your voice gets smaller. You speak less, you change your tone, you stop bringing things up. And he says this is not because you're naturally quiet, but it's because your body already knows the cost of setting him off.

[B]

Yeah. We get to another one similar to that later on down the list too, where he talks about subtle signs your body's giving you, which I think is really interesting. Flag number three. The rules change daily.

[D]

So, like, what was fine yesterday is now a big problem today.

[B]

Flag number four. Silence is weaponized.

[D]

So this one, they say he does not need to yell to punish you.

[B]

Oh, God, it's so. It's making me feel. It's making me squirm in my seat.

[C]

These?

[B]

Yeah, just thinking about them. Flag number five. You are isolated quietly.

[D]

For this one, it does not always begin with you can't see them. It begins with tension. Guilt, consequences, discomfort. The sense that having your own people is somehow a problem.

[B]

Yeah. Like your family is always a big one, isn't it?

[D]

Your world getting smaller, you and your

[B]

family, you do this and that. So you think, well, okay, I won't see my family. And then he can't accuse me of colluding with them or friends. We all know about the isolation.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Flag number six. You are monitored.

[D]

Yeah. This one, I feel like, is so predominant in so many times, but, like, phone checks, location demands. Who were you with? Why didn't you answer? Why are you late? Who is that?

[C]

Yeah. And you know, I know a lot of People have. A lot of couples have Find my friends or life360. And. Yeah, but, I mean, you could only imagine how much that would be being utilized in a domestic violence relationship just for them to have complete knowledge of where you are all the time.

[B]

My son wanted us to get life360. And I said, no.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I said, I don't need anybody, even you guys tracking me.

[D]

My mum has my Snapchat location and she'll be like, why are you here?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Snapchat.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Can I ask a question? A girlfriend of mine's daughter was 16 and had a boyfriend, and it was pretty, you know, special relationship, first big relationship. And these two kids had an agreement with each other that they had each other's Snapchat passwords so they could check each other's.

[D]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[B]

I think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was creeped out. She's 16. Why does she have to answer to him? And, yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only person.

[D]

I feel like any age, even if my partner said, can I have your Snapchat password? And be like, for what?

[B]

Right, yeah, yeah. And he would like, you know, say, who's this guy who's snapping you? And she'd say, I've known him since we were three. But I'm like, why do you have to explain yourself at all to this guy?

[D]

My gosh, that's really scary, isn't it?

[B]

16 Flag 7. He rewrites reality so he denies gaslighting bass, basically.

[A]

Right, yeah.

[D]

Minimizes, blames, reframes. Yeah. Just like leaving conversations, doubting your memory, your tone, your intent, your sanity, all that kind of stuff is what Pete's put this down to.

[B]

Gaslighting Flag number eight. His protection feels like control. I feel like this. Sharing Snapchat passwords is. Could be part of that. Like, I'm just. Babe, I'm just.

[C]

Yeah, I'm taking care of you.

[B]

I'm being a chivalrous, Making sure everyone else is. I trust you. I'm just making sure everyone else is behaving.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And that's pretty much what Pete's written here, is just that, control. His calls leave you concerned, makes you feel smaller, more managed, less free. Pretty much.

[B]

Flag number nine. There are two different men. Oh, I can relate to this one.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So just in public, calm. The fun guy, he's believable, helpful, charming. And then in private, he's cold, punishing, entitled, frightening. And I feel like you just never know what's happening on the inside of Somebody's house, somebody's relationship, especially with social media, all looks happy.

[B]

And I've heard this so many times that people will say their husband or their dad or whoever it was, was everyone else thought was a great guy. Yeah, he's the life of the party. He's funny. He's, you know. And you're just sitting there thinking at this barbecue, thinking, ugh, yeah, if only you knew what it was like at home. And then when it comes to thinking, I want help, how do you ask? Because everyone thinks this guy's great.

[D]

And then nobody believes you.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to get the message out when everyone thinks this guy's Great. Flag number 10. The last one on this list is the body is already on alert. Now, I mentioned this earlier. I find this fascinating. It's like that book, the Body Keeps the Score. You know, that idea that our psychology affects our bodies and sometimes it's so noisy, but we're not paying attention to it.

[D]

And everyone says, like, your body knows.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Your body rejects the bad things. So, like, tight chest, nausea, insomnia, flinching at footsteps, silence, mood shifts, all that kind of stuff. They're all signs that your body's going, hey, wake up. Like, yeah, this isn't right.

[B]

Body's tense as well and you sort of don't realise it, but things like heartburn and gurgling and things like that.

[D]

Yeah, it's reading the Danger.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So look, this is just one publication that Pete and Belinda put out. You can get it for free on the website petebatesproject.com and coming up in a second, we will hear from Belinda Bates, the other half of this dynamic duo that's coming up on Australian True Crime.

[A]

Yeah, well, obviously, I was working in the jail. I was working in the drug intervention unit. What had happened is that they get mentors up from the village to help out with all the prisoners that are in there to help with, you know, an intervention of drugs and alcohol abuse. So they're in there for a certain amount of time before they're released from there. So one of those mentors was Peter.

[B]

So the mentors are essentially, they're a peer group. Right. They're also prisoners. I'm assuming they would have had some experience with addiction themselves and they're in recovery and so they're invited in to help liaise with these guys who need to get into recovery.

[A]

That's correct. We liaise really well. So he was, you know, thoughtful and caring and obviously had been in an addiction himself. It just started off as just, you know, conversation about, you know, prisoners and I do case notes on etc. And we just started to form. I wouldn't say like a friendship as such because it was, you know, frowned upon, but just, you know, we. We just clicked. Obviously, I was attracted to him.

[B]

Chemistry you're talking. I think what you're talking about is chemistry.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you can say that. Yeah. So I guess, you know, the amount of time that we're working together, I think we got to a point where it was kind of like I kind of knew he felt the same way, so he left the unit. I then left the year after and then decided to write to him. So that's when things started to happen. So, I mean, he still had like four and a half years to go. Yeah, like you had to be there,

[B]

I guess, but it's just.

[A]

It's just something that you just wouldn't think would happen at a place like that.

[B]

Well, this is it. I've never. I mean, I've had very short visits to a couple of prisons, but realistically, I've never been inside a prison. Let's say most of us haven't. So to me it sounds like a sort of, in some ways a typical workplace romance. But in other ways, prison is such an unnatural environment. And I've met women before who in various ways started relationships with men while they were in prison long term. And some of them have gotten married. And then when the man has been released, it's just changed everything. Everything. Like trying to move that relationship into the real world, into just the normal world has destroyed the relationship, actually. So you, you must have been conscious of that. And were you thinking about that? About, do I really know Peter? Is outside Peter the same as inside Peter?

[A]

Definitely, definitely had those thoughts. Look, I think a couple years in of us just know, seeing each other, communicating, going and visit his intentions. Look, I really believe that how he felt about me was real and true because not only did we see each other, have phone calls, written communication was a very big thing for the both of us. And just the things that he would write, I felt was real, but it did go through my mind several times. Was he just using me to have a place to. To stay when he got out? Because being incarcerated very long and was I just that stepping stone and being in prison for such a long time? Also he had to get involved with the world because it had changed so much since he was not in prison. Yeah, and those thoughts went through my mind too, but I was just trying to push it to the side and just thought, you know, it'll be what it'll be. I've come this far. If I don't move ahead with it, there'll always be that what if and what have I got to lose kind of thing. Because I felt it was real.

[B]

And what about your friends and family? Were they voicing the sorts of things that I'm saying? Like, I. And I. I genuinely think Peter is a great guy. So it's not personal. And. And you are clearly a smart woman. You know what's what. But, you know, we all know that in relationships, relationships are complicated enough without adding in a bloke who's been convicted of murder, who's grown up in violent circumstances, very traumatic childhood, and has been in jail at this stage for what, 14 years or something?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Long time.

[A]

It was being selfish. I had been in a domestic violence relationship, a coercive control one, myself. I felt like I had nothing to leave because I had left a relationship. I was having a relationship from just a communication point of view for four and a half years. And I felt that that need for myself was great. Those thoughts of him coming home and how my family friends felt. When I first told a very close friend, she was the one I told first. She knew me and I wouldn't make a decision like this unless I really felt something. I mean, she was scared for me. Like, I'm not going to lie, she felt that way, especially knowing what he was in for. But she knew me and she thought, well, this is what you want with you 100%. Which meant a lot to me. And it wasn't till probably a year in that I did tell my mother and my sister and my father. And because we are such a great family, um, they were. They were like, I. I can't even describe to you. I cried when I told them. And they were just cuddling me, saying, we're with you a hundred percent. My dad even drove me to the first, because he was in Mary Bar at that stage and I'm in Brisbane. My dad was a correctional officer himself. So he drove me there. Cause it was a very long drive and I didn't really know where I was going. Um, he drove me there.

[B]

I'd have thought your dad would have been the number one cynic about prisoners.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. But my father knows me too, and he knows that I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't really feel something strong.

[B]

What about the other thing other women have told me is that when a bloke's in Jail. He's the most romantic. You've never met a more romantic guy. Because later, in retrospect, they realize that, well, he's got all this time on his hands to think about nothing but me, really, and then write me these beautiful letters and all this romance, romance. And then when he got out, he was just a man again. Who's writing anyone letters these days unless they're in jail, to be honest. Like, you know, you're lucky if you get a love heart emoji. It feels unnatural and unreal even to me hearing about it. I feel like this isn't real. This is two people fantasizing a relationship. This is people who've never had to think about who's going to unstack the dishwasher or, you know, being woken up in the middle of the night by somebody else and having to take care of them when they're sick and all that boring stuff. And instead, there's all this intense romance that most men don't indulge in. So, again, if I was your girlfriend, I'd have been saying, belinda, this isn't real.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I get like Michelle completely. I would probably be the same. But what I can say is that I never thought about all of that, to be honest. I was probably just in that fairy tale of like, oh, my God, this is just, you know, after what relationship I had been in prior, it was just amazing. And I just went with it. I just went with it.

[B]

Well, that's the other thing, too. You've come from a relationship of abuse and you're now thinking about getting into a relationship with a convicted murderer. Now, on paper, that doesn't seem like a great idea. I do understand the nuances. You were never scared that not only had he murdered someone previously in a sort of outburst of violence out of anger, but now he's been in jail for such a long time, which we know can really brutalise people. So, yeah. You weren't ever scared of what you might be getting?

[A]

I actually wasn't. I have never been scared of him and look insane that working in the prison, there might have been a handful of men that I might have thought, he's dangerous, but not with Peter. I didn't really think the bigger picture because now when you're saying that to me, I think it's so. It's so true. It is so true. You know, I think I was like my 30s and I had been in a terrible relationship and I was holding on to something that I thought, oh, my God. Yeah, like you said, a Fairy tale. And, yeah, I just didn't really think about it until he came home, which was surreal because we'd been seeing each other from a distance for so, so long to then be living together straight away. But I tell you what, very, very strong man. He took on, you know, being the partner, living in the outside world to taking on my children. They like being a father figure.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And he just took it all on and was fantastic. Still to this day.

[B]

Well, we have the benefit of hindsight now, because had I been your best friend all that time ago and talked you out of it, it would have been a great shame, because here you are now. How many years has Pete been out?

[A]

He's been out for 12 years.

[B]

Oh, my God. And you two are going strong.

[A]

11 years married. Yes.

[B]

So you did know.

[A]

And. And it honestly only feels like. And I say this over and over again, too, it feels like only a few years, like. Like we still, you know, talk to each other in our lunch break, on our way to work, on our way home. We dream everything together. He's like my. He's my best friend. Like, we just enjoy each other's company. Like if I'm out somewhere without him or vice versa. We just don't feel filled because that person is missing. It's like I feel very lucky and blessed that I'd met such an amazing person in such a, you know, place where it's. Well, it's not normal, basically.

[B]

I mean, I don't. I think you're lucky under any circumstances. And I'm saying that as a single woman who's also had some pretty shit relationships, that I'm very envious. And then the fact that I think it's a miracle, actually, the relationship that you have found. Add to that where you found it, it's just a real. It's a one in a bazillion, I think, and. But you've turned your backgrounds, his traumatic childhood in domestic violence. Your trauma from relationships has become an incredibly strong bond for you two, hasn't it?

[A]

Absolutely. It's actually been really good medicine for the both of us, being able to talk about our pasts and then putting it together. And neither one of us have ever felt that we were any victim of anything. We just feel that, you know, making a change, changing your patterns, just the language of it all, how it can help other people. Yeah. I mean, Peter's the backbone of it all. Not so much myself, but I support him with it because he has. He's had a traumatic childhood. He's watched what his Mother's gone through what his father has been like, to then being in jail for most of his adult, young adult life, to then coming out to, well, being with an officer, to then just, you know, making a point of difference, like changing that pattern. Not ever once said that he was a victim of anything. He just stood up as a man.

[B]

I mean, he's also a great example of the prison system, I have to say, because he entered jail as a very young man. Was he 19 or something like that when he went into jail?

[A]

Yes, he was. He was 19 years old.

[B]

And as I said earlier, the murder that he committed was an act of violence out of temper, really and surely, wasn't it? This was an explosive moment where, just to remind us that his former partner had been harassed in the street by a group of men, and I believe she was slapped, and then she told him about it, and he went over there to sort them out. And a man died in that melee.

[A]

Yes, that's right.

[B]

So somehow, though, in the prison system, he has. He's come out a gentler human being. He's come out without that explosive temper, and he's come out with some skills to handle himself psychologically and emotionally. Can you explain that to us?

[A]

He even learned how to read in jail.

[B]

Oh, my God, I forgot about that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, learning all of that in the. In the prison books was his biggest thing.

[B]

Well, that process was kicked off for him by the kindness of a guard. Right. A guard who gave him a book.

[A]

That act of kindness from a guard, which, you know, Peter was never used to that type of thing because he never had that as a kid growing up. So. So that meant a lot to him. So that's why I think he. He made sure he started to teach himself how to read. You know, he had all this time he had to forget about the outside loved ones because he had a lot of time he had to do, so he concentrated on teaching himself all these things.

[B]

You are paying it forward. Both of you are helping a lot of other people. Tell us about your work, both individually and together.

[A]

Yeah, well, like a lot of what's happened to him has been to build that confidence for others to. To look at him because of his childhood, what he's been through, what he's trying to do, because he does believe that this must happen way back in the youth. I mean, there's lots of things he wants to do, but with a lot of domestic violence, when you see your bruises and, you know, people can see it. But this coercive control, which I have lived myself is not seen. And it's. And it hasn't been a big thing for a long time. And I think this just finding the pattern and the language that women can actually see, because a lot of them say, oh, no, it's not me, it's not me. So, like, just working to get all these patterns down, getting women to see them, like, getting the out before it leads to death is the biggest thing for him. Like, he so, so passionate about getting this across to women. For myself, it's a lot of backup with him because, yes, I have experienced it and understand it, and I've worked in the prison system and I've seen men coming in and out, and it's always to do with domestic violence. And, you know, it's just a really strong focus that we both have to try and help women see this part of it and not just women. We know that men suffer from this as well, but because we get a lot of comments about, you know, men dear, you know, same. But this is about the women and children at this point.

[B]

We do get. We get a lot of comments about that too. And we acknowledge, you know, that men can and are victims of family violence, domestic violence, and certainly children, little boys are definitely victimized, but we cannot ignore the fact that the vast majority of perpetrators are men. And that's just a fact that we can't ignore. It never ends, does it? And it's sort of. Do you ever feel helpless? Do you ever feel like, what's the point in the work that we're doing?

[A]

No, never, Never. Because like, when I worked in the prison service, it's like, if you can just help that one person, I feel that's a victory because having all these women that do not do anything about putting domestic violence orders or they don't get listened to, like, eventually something is going to give, you know, like, I mean, I understand, you know, with, you know, women not wanting to go to police because of the, you know, the feeling of then the other partner knowing about it or being even more scared or where have they got to go? They don't have money. Like, all of these things understand it 100%. But if we continue to keep speaking out, naming these patterns, maybe you just won't ever get to that point for somebody.

[B]

And I also think, don't underestimate it. And I think we can all be a bit guilty of that, of assuming it won't happen. Like, it's so unfathomable that to say, oh, yeah, her boyfriend or her husband's an asshole. And don't assume that he can't. That he's not a murderer. Don't assume that under an amount of pressure, an amount of what he perceives as humiliation, an amount of drugs and alcohol, all of those things that any woman could be next week's victim.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. It just takes, like a trigger.

[B]

It takes a minute as well.

[A]

Exactly. You know, and what woman doesn't deserve just to be the woman that they are without them having to then take their life just for stupid reasons? It's just horrific how this constantly just keeps happening.

[B]

Your Instagram bio says I analyse coercive and high control behavioural patterns in relationships before they escalate into crisis. Early intervention behavioural insight. So how. How do you do that? How do you get to interact with people about their relationships? And, you know, do we. Do we come to you seeking advice or how does your work work?

[A]

Yeah, look, when women come to me, most of them go to Peter, but when they do come to me, I do revert them back to Peter because Peter does do specialized, you know, zoom calls or written stuff. But because I have that experience also being one of the coercive control survivors, I do believe that that intervention, young in age was critical because I do believe that what young men see from their own mothers, they think it's okay to be that way. So we need to start planning that intervention at a young age because that's where it really does happen. Like, I'm not saying it happens all the time, because you do have people exceptional like Peter that break from that pattern.

[B]

You know, I remember talking to a bloke once who did some time for domestic violence, who assaulted his partner very badly. He saw violence as a child, and even he was kind of baffled by his behaviour because he said, and here's another prison success story, by the way. He was a guy who did the anger management courses because his lawyers told him he should. It'd be a good look. And he thought, oh, this will be bullshit. But he really got a lot out of it. It changed his life. But he said that as a kid, he obviously hated the violence perpetrated against his mother, tried to protect her, you know, would never have believed in a million years that he would grow up to emulate his father, to repeat his father's behavior. And so he was confused by his own behaviour. So it's really subconscious, isn't it? It's like he didn't think that he deserved to behave like his dad. He didn't have these conscious feelings. But when there was a Drama in the household. He exploded. He did exert coercive control. He did expect to be treated in a certain way around the house and all of those things. It's insidious, isn't.

[A]

Is. It is. Well, it's like a childhood. Like, you just. You just watch it and you just think, this is normal, this is normal. To behave this way towards your partner.

[B]

On one level, he knew it wasn't, but then on this very deep level, it did feel right, I guess, or it felt normal or it felt comfortable or something.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You would think that as a child growing up, what you see is normal and then you carry it on. To break that pattern takes a special type of person.

[B]

I don't know about you, but I know, I see in myself things I do as a parent that I hated when my parents did them. So even that on that level, you think, why am I behaving like this? I hated it when they did this.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So I guess I'm just trying to kind of humanise it in a weird way. Sometimes I think we demonise men too much. And, look, I get a lot of flack for this when I say it out loud, but I feel like whatever we're doing isn't working right in Australia when it comes to domestic violence and domestic violence, murder. And so I think, are we making it impossible for men to seek help because we're demonising them? If anyone ever admits to these problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is there a space for them? Look, outside of jail, is there a space for men to seek help?

[A]

A lot of men won't seek help because to them either, it's embarrassing for them. They don't think they've got a problem. But you gotta know that you're not doing the right thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You gotta know that what you witness as a child is not right, that it's what you've been brought up into. But I do believe that there is a place for these men. But for a man to put his hand up to say, yep, I'm guilty and I need help.

[B]

There's a group in Melbourne called Hard Cuddles, which is all about very big masculine blokes supporting each other with all sorts of issues, including with issues of domestic violence. And I won't even say it's not judgmental, because it is. It's very realistic, like you've been saying. It's very much like, you know, you're doing the wrong thing. You know, this is not the guy you want to be. It's not the father you want to be. It's not the husband, so it doesn't let people off the hook, but it is. You need to talk to another man. I think, and I think Peter reminds me of these hard cuddles guys, is that, you know, you're not going to find a much more masculine backstory than Peter's. And that's who, who men need to talk to, hear from, get support from, I think is people like Peter.

[A]

I know that we did have child safety up here in Queensland reach out to Peter because they did have a. I think it was called Walking with Dads. So I guess with the child safety it would be that, you know, these children have been taken away from the parents and that these parents have. Are doing this, I'd say course, Walking with Dads to help them with the way that they are treating the children. So there are few here and there, but it's not huge. Like when you hear about women with domestic violence or face and women's shelters and, and all of that. So. Which is obviously definitely.

[B]

Yeah, I mean it's appropriate. But you know that women, we need more, much more support for women in, in these relationships. But we also need to do something about the men. We, you know, we can't just leave them out marauding around the place.

[A]

Exactly. And this is so much of it.

[B]

So social media is really where your work is yours and Peter's is that. That's sort of where it's sitting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Peter's, he's like, he's got a few digital books and there's a few free ones there and like, you know how to say it so you don't misread it as a free one. And then we've got 10 red flags. You're living with the dangerous men. So it's just all little. And I think what he's just trying to do from that type of platform is to just show women that these are the 10 red flag are just things to show women that if you are living with any of these, then this is the start of it.

[B]

That's what I was talking about before that's so helpful about how we just don't, we don't ever assume that we're really in that much danger. Like, we just can't imagine it.

[A]

It's just horrific with what's going on with a lot of them in their lives that, you know, like, I've been a one, I've had a domestic violence order put against my ex too. But when I read what some of these women have been through, my heart just aches for them and their children.

[B]

Well, I mean, Peter and his mum, you know, I mean, he tells stories, and I'm sure you've heard many more than I have. But I told a number of people after I spoke to him about the incident where his father poured petrol over him and threatened to set him on fire because his mum was packing to leave. How you ever, ever recover from that, I don't know. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org. Au. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org au.

[C]

The producers of this podcast recognize the traditional owners of the land on which it's recognized recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present, and those emerging.