A victim’s perspective of the mental impairment defence *re-issue*

Summary

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Australian True Crime Podcast: “A Victim’s Perspective of the Mental Impairment Defence” (Re-issue)

Episode Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Bravecasting | Australian True Crime

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Episode Overview

This episode provides a harrowing first-hand account from David Camarata, a victim and survivor of attempted murder and stalking by his former best friend, Jonathan Dick. The discussion centers on the impact of Victoria’s mental impairment defence in criminal cases, particularly focusing on the lived experience and concerns of victims when offenders are found not guilty due to mental illness. David shares the ongoing trauma, disruptions to family life, and his perspective on the perceived risks involved with releasing mentally impaired offenders back into the community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Impact of Stalking and Attempted Murder (00:00–04:43)

• Long-Term Trauma:
  David details the lingering effects of being stalked and attacked, including hypervigilance, medication, and psychological triggers.
  • Quote: “I've got all those triggers from day to day life…That won’t go away.” (00:00)
• Family Upheaval:
  Forced to relocate several times, selling a beloved family home due to safety concerns after the attack.
  • Quote: “Selling the family house was a little bit hard…after something like that happens at your house, it’s very difficult...” (04:43)

Background: Jonathan Dick and the Attacks (05:24–21:47)

• Incident Descriptions:
  Jonathan Dick waited for his brother David in a shopping center and carried out a frenzied attack with a samurai sword, shocking those who knew him as a once “decent guy.”
• Stalking and Violence:
  Five years before the attacks, Jonathan brought a knife to David’s house but was calmed down. Later, he ambushed David at his home, attacking him from behind with a hammer.
  • Quote: “He crept, creeped out...and then bang. I actually thought something had fallen off the roof and hit me in the head.” (19:17)
• Psychological Toll:
  “My kids were crying...you could see right into my neck … it was brutal. Blood everywhere.” (20:24)
• Cycle of Displacement:
  Multiple moves with young children, constant fear and unpredictability.

Living with Constant Fear & Hypervigilance (21:47–26:28)

• Everyday Anxiety:
  David develops severe hypervigilance, always anticipating another attack, jumping at shadows, and defensive strategies for daily safety.
• Stalking Period:
  For nearly a year, David lives in hiding and heightened alertness until spotting Jonathan stalking his workplace.

The Capture and Aftermath (26:29–32:13)

• Confrontation and Restraint:
  David and his colleague Dion subdue Jonathan after spotting him lurking.
  • Quote: “When you’re hiding from a monster, it’s scary. When you see a monster… it’s just like a problem. You gotta solve it.” (28:24)
• Personal Defense:
  David admits to carrying a knife and taser due to ongoing fear.

The Mental Impairment Defence and Thomas Embling Hospital (32:13–36:19)

• Legal Outcome:
  Court found Jonathan Dick not guilty of murder and attempted murder due to mental impairment and ordered him admitted as a forensic patient.
  • Quote: “He was suffering the effects of a severe mental illness…admitted as a forensic patient.” (32:13)
• Systemic Concerns:
  Discussion about lack of available beds, pressures to release patients, and doubts about the effectiveness and safety of the system.

Critiques of the Forensic Mental Health System (33:07–39:59)

• Public Safety Fears:
  David recounts high-profile cases where released patients reoffended, questioning the ability of the system to protect the community.
  • Quote: “If you allow him back out on the streets again, it could cost me my life or somebody else.” (00:00, repeated at 36:40)
• Release Procedures:
  Stories like Peko Lykovsky and Sean Price underscore fears of violent offenders being released or granted privileges.
• Victim Support Shortcomings:
  Limited and temporary support for victims vs. ongoing care and resources for offenders.

Emotional Toll and The Problem with the System (39:33–47:26)

• Ongoing Threat:
  David faces anxiety about Jonathan’s incremental privileges and the lack of communication regarding his rehabilitation and release.
• Victim Participation:
  The criminal justice and mental health systems exclude victims from decision-making or timely updates.
  • Quote: “You’re not being included, obviously, and victims never are…not know what's going on.” (45:21)
• Long-Term Psychological Impact:
  Persistent PTSD symptoms, disrupted fatherhood, effects on family normalcy, and frustration with the failure to truly 'move on.'

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David on daily anxiety:
  “I scold myself if I walk out of a door and I don't look each way. I can't handle if someone's a few meters behind me…And I look at it and I think if you allow him back out on the streets again, it could cost me my life.” (00:00, 36:40)

• On missed red flags in hindsight:
  “He did mention slitting his brother’s throat...at the time I did think to myself that was a bit harsh...but he wasn’t a violent person then.” (15:39)

• After catching Jonathan:
  “I'm not apologetic for that at all.” (32:01)

• On systemic failure and fairness:
  “He gets all the help in the world...as long as he’s not out on the street...that's the way I look at it, which is a very selfish way to look at it. But I look at it and I think, well, I just want to live a normal life.” (36:40)

• On being left in the dark:
  “Don’t know anything. We’re not allowed to know anything.” (47:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Description | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | David’s trauma, hypervigilance, and medication | | 04:43 | Family relocation and disruption | | 05:24 | Jonathan’s violent attack on his brother and David’s prior concerns| | 19:17 | Details of David’s ambush and physical injuries | | 21:49 | Ongoing displacement, living in hiding | | 26:28 | Spotting and capturing Jonathan after a year on the run | | 32:13 | Legal findings: not guilty by mental impairment, hospitalisation | | 34:42 | Case of Peko Lykovsky discussed | | 36:40 | Reflections on personal and public safety, systemic failures | | 39:49 | Discussion on reintegration, victim communication barriers | | 45:21 | Exclusion of victims from system processes | | 48:56 | Struggles accessing mental health care as a victim | | 51:17 | Endnote: government increasing hospital capacity |

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Additional Insights

• Mental Health System Limitations: Victoria’s secure mental health facilities face severe bed shortages, sometimes resulting in long waits in prison for offenders found not guilty by reason of mental impairment.
• Victim Perspectives Often Overlooked: David’s narrative highlights an imbalance between the ongoing, lived trauma of victims and the resources allotted for offender rehabilitation.
• Intersecting Trauma: The episode is unflinching in showing not only personal but also ripple effects trauma has on families, especially children.
• Legal and Societal Frustrations: The discussion raises serious questions about the interface between criminal justice, mental health policy, and community safety.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a rare, raw insight into the ongoing experience of a crime survivor forced to navigate a system that often prioritizes the treatment and gradual reintegration of violent offenders over victim safety and information. David Cammarata’s story is a sobering reminder of the weight victims continue to shoulder long after headlines fade—and of the importance of systemic reform that genuinely accounts for their voices.

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Transcript

[David Camarata]

And if you've lived a good few years under the type of pressure and stress of having someone stalking you, it creates a lot of issues in every part of your life. I these days have to take four different types of medication. I've got all those triggers from day to day life and that's from opening doors to I scold myself if I walk out of a door and I don't look each way. I can't handle if someone's a few meters behind me, I've got an IDM and then I've got to move. Things like that won't go away. And I look at it and I think if you allow him back out on the streets again, it could cost me my life or somebody else. And I think that that's a big risk to take to the community.

[Narrator]

In episode 216 of Australian True Crime, we heard from Dr. Danny Sullivan, who's the Executive Director of Clinical services at Thomas Embling Hospital in Melbourne. Thomas Embling is a secure psychiatric facility. It's nest a leafy bend of the Yarra river on the same spot where the Yarra Bend Lunatic Asylum was established in 1848, when the area was still part of the colony of New South Wales. There are only two ways to be admitted to to either under the Mental Health act or under the Crimes Mental Impairment and Unfitness to Be Tried Act. Under the Mental Health Act, a person with a severe mental illness who poses a threat to themselves or to others can be admitted for psychiatric treatment. Compulsori At Thomas Embling, you'll find only the most challenging of people in that category, including those already in prison who develop severe mental illness or whose existing conditions escalate in that environment. But it's the people admitted under the Crimes Mental Impairment and Unfitness to Be Tried act, also known as the forensic patients, for whom Thomas Embling receives most attention. These are the people who've been sent to the hospital by the court because it's decided they were either mentally impaired at the time they committed an offence or that they have a mental impairment. That means they can't stand trial for an offence. The offences in question are generally violent. Offenders aren't sentenced to set periods of incarceration under the Mental Health Act. They receive treatment under custodial supervision orders, ideally with the benefit of treatment and medication. Their conditions improve and they can apply for leave from the hospital. Some patients have jobs outside and return every night. And if and when staff are satisfied of a patient's recovery, they can be released back into the community. There have Obviously been many, many patients who have re entered the community successfully and we've never heard about them again. Unfortunately, though, there have been some notable exceptions. In 2006, the then federal Health Minister, Tony Abbott visited Thomas Embley and was punched in the face by a patient as he toured the acute care unit. The Sydney Morning Herald reported that the minister laughed off the attack, chuckling to journalists that some people probably thought his attacker had had a sane moment when he swung a punch at him. His attacker that day was a man by the name of Sean Christian Price, who was sent to Thomas Embling after a string of violent rapes. Nine years after punching Tony Abbott, Price murdered teenager Marcia Vukotic in a completely random attack. Ross Konidaris was suffering a psychotic break when he shot his grandparents in 2012 and then set their house on fire. The court found that his psych was induced by drug use, but that he had an underlying diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia and he was placed at the Thomas Embling Hospital as a forensic patient. In 2019, while on day release, Kanadarris armed himself with a meat cleaver and scissors before attempting several home invasions. He later pleaded guilty to aggravated burglary, attempted armed robbery and assault. With all of that said, Dr. Sullivan definitely presents a compelling case in favour of the Thomas Embling Hospital and for the system it represents. But today we hear from dav, David's former best friend, the best man at his wedding is a man by the name of Jonathan Dick. Jonathan is now a forensic patient at the Thomas Embling Hospital and David presents what I think is a pretty compelling case too. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created. The Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

[David Camarata]

We are, well, fortunately and unfortunately having to relocate our circumstances, obviously we don't have a clear pattern or a clear direction for the future. So because of safety concerns, obviously got to try and mitigate them as much as possible. So we've got to do everything, you know, like change home, change the lot. So selling the family house was a little bit hard as well, because we spent like 10 years renovating that place and after something like that happens at your house, it's very difficult after that to walk out your front door and not think about the past.

[Interviewer]

So Jonathan Dick is a man who was in the shopping centre, Doncaster shopping centre, waiting with a samurai sword and a knife for his brother David. And by the lifts I think they've

[David Camarata]

actually to memory, when we were in the supreme court, the, the DPP put in a submission so those tapes or DVDs or whatever couldn't be viewed again. Because what happened to David was terrible. I mean, I knew him quite well and to die like that is horrible. Really, really horrible. And he wouldn't have known what was, what was coming. I mean, I got a description of what was on those, those things and I spoke to some of the police. One of the police officers who was trying to sort of, when they were looking for him, he had to watch the tape and he refused to watch it twice when he was trying to show his team what had happened because he said it was too horrendous.

[Interviewer]

So the attack lasted 66 seconds apparently. I mean, just a frenzied attack. And in the lead up to that attack, were you aware that he was dangerous? Did you feel as though he was dangerous before that happened?

[David Camarata]

The problem with him and the, the thing that's caused me the most issues over the years is the fact that face to face and front on, he's, he's not dangerous at all. Behind, like with the stalking behavior and not knowing where he's coming from, that is, is the most scary part. So that's where I felt and find him to be extremely dangerous. He did come to my house years, about five years prior to the first attack with a knife. But he, I kind of talked him, talked him down, I suppose you could say, and he gave me the knife and then he submitted and all the rest of it. So it wasn't much of an issue. But I was concerned from that visit. I just was never comfortable with the fact that you coming at my house middle of the night with a knife, you know, it's, it's a little bit scary. But I mean, I called the mental health services and they sort of said to me, oh, maybe he's not taking his medication any longer. So. And I had no idea. I hadn't seen him for years. Actually it was probably about two years since I'd seen him. So I'd heard through friends of friends that potentially had some issues. But again, through my own investigation, so to speak with, speaking to some people, I said, look, I'm going to get in contact with him and see if he's okay and sort of try and you know, come back into his life somewhat. But I was advised strongly do not contact him because you don't know where he's at or you can't help him. I mean, I'm not A doctor, obviously.

[Interviewer]

No, but. And also, he's obviously had changed so much. His mental illness had changed him so much. I mean, his mum and his family had no idea whatsoever. They were on the news that night appealing, his mum and his brothers, they were on the news appealing for any information, for anyone to come forward. And in fact, his mum apologised for Jonathon not being there, correct?

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

She said, you know, we all, his brothers and his other brother Jonathan, who couldn't be here tonight, blah, blah, blah.

[David Camarata]

Yes.

[Narrator]

So.

[Interviewer]

And then she said later that when a detective came to her and said, look, we think it could have been Jonathan, she was absolutely shocked. Can you tell us about who he was when you were best mates?

[David Camarata]

Well, I don't know. We just sort of grew up in kind of in the country and we didn't have a lot to do. So, you know, there was. He was decent guy. I mean, he's always quite jovial and. But he had a serious side to him and I mean, he was quite intelligent as well, like, very intelligent. And he was a heavy cannabis user. So I think that might have, you know, played a part somewhere along the lines. I kind of went in a slightly different direction in a sense that I didn't get into any sort of party drugs or anything like that. You know, there was a sort of little bit of a separation there along the ways. And then I sort of went with, you know, my wife and sort of started a life and he continued sort of on that. But he was a decent guy. I mean, got into the footy and like to read comic books and stuff like that. So I've never had. We never really had any issues, play basketball, just general, normal, suburban, fairly normal. Yeah. He was actually working at my house and I was picking him up and dropping him off because he didn't have a license and I was living at the time at that house in Kelor and he was living in Ringwood. So basically I'd pick him up in the morning and drive him. So I was doing quite some distance. I was spending a lot of time with him in the car and I was noticing, just saying just the odd thing here and there that just. Just didn't. Wasn't like him exactly. So now just a bit darker in tone and he wasn't as jovial and he was just not quite right. And I. I actually thought during the time he was working that it was the job that was causing him issues. So I was concerned, like I'd call him to see if he was too hot in the house to see if he needed anything and he would sort of hang up and then I'd sort of try and make sure that he was comfortable. And as the job progressed, he got worse. And I said, look, listen, just don't do the job anymore. Like, forget it, I'll pay you for the whole job and then I'll get someone. Because I thought that was making him upset.

[Interviewer]

How old was he at this stage?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, about 30ish, roughly. But yeah, so. And then the last thing that caused the fight was actually how it was publicized a bit different. I got into a little bit of an argument over a pizza, just the size of the pizza. He was really specific about it, which is silly. But then I asked him to wait before I had to drive him home, which is quite a distance. I had a truck coming with some furniture and I said, can we wait another half an hour? And then that's where he started to carry on. And I had enough's enough and raised my voice. He raised his bit of swearing going on. So I paid him for the job and I said, don't, please don't come back. I begged him the night before not to come back to do the job, but he refused and said, if I don't pick him up, he'll make his way there and finish the job. So that was that. I actually paid him a lot more money than what he asked for because I felt that, you know, it was the right thing to do. He actually took the money that he asked for and then left the other money and he actually hid it underneath. So it wasn't anything to do with money. He wasn't upset about the money. It was something going on inside him. But again, I have no idea. I mean, I'm just trying to live life as well. Right. The contact had ceased. Right. So then it first started off with a few friends of mine ringing me, saying, oh, he's said X, Y, Z to them and asking them whether or not, you know, just different things that had never happened. And I knew that there was something going on. But again, I was sort of strongly advised not to have any contact with him. So that's, that's what I did. Apparently he'd had some vision of myself and his brother bashing him until his brain fell out. And then all these angels came. Put something along those lines. He was pretty full on. But obviously that didn't happen. I mean, and we didn't go to school together either. His brother went to school and across town.

[Interviewer]

So do you remember when you heard that David had been Murdered.

[David Camarata]

They mentioned his name on the radio. So I ran to the computer and I saw that vision. And within a couple of. Literally within a split second, I was like, well, that's. They've got it wrong. That's his brother who's died. I thought it was Jono that had died.

[Interviewer]

Of course, because it's so clear, really

[David Camarata]

so clear if you know the guy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, very clear. That this. Him standing there in his tracky Dax.

[David Camarata]

Not even like a question mark, it's just, bang, that's him. So I. I was, like, started to get a bit stressed out, thinking, oh, my God, someone's killed him. I don't know what he's up to these days, but, you know, sad, sad regardless. And then I sort of got down a bit further and I was like, put two and two together, going, okay, shit, he's killing people now. So that day I had to walk to my car and, you know, in a car park where, you know, his brother just got murdered. And, I mean, I was just worried that someone was gonna jump out and try and kill me or he was gonna try and kill me.

[Interviewer]

So you hadn't seen this bloke in ten years?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, about that. Stage seven to ten years. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And it did enter your mind that day?

[David Camarata]

Well, once I saw who. I mean, he'd killed his brother. The thing for me was that them two were as. Not as close as me and him, but we had a. That kind of like that relationship. Right. He's the best man in my wedding. Yeah. So I put a lot of effort into a relationship with him. I still, you know, maintained some kind of relationship and trying to try to check in on him and see if he was okay. So, yeah, it was just. It was a shock. So I thought if he could kill him, he could quite easily kill me. That's what I was thinking. That afternoon. I actually went to the. As soon as I found out, I went to the police station, I rang them, went down there, and I absolutely love the Victorian police. Love them. The guy who I got the first time I went down there, I didn't like him at all. And we had a real horrible experience. I had a horrible experience, rather, talking to him. And he showed me a picture of Jono with a hood on. And it was sort of like, you know, like almost like a comic book picture, really, with someone about to swing something. So I was already a little bit all over the shop that day. I don't know if that's how they ID'd him. I think there could have been someone just Calling literally, like, everyone knew it was him, so they've obviously ID'd him. And then for me personally, the whole thing started off with sleeping away from home that night because I was a little bit paranoid. And then slowly, slowly I just. You just drift back into normal life.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[David Camarata]

After a few days you sort of went back home and I sort of thought, well, there's no real reason why you would want to kill me. Like, we, yeah, we got into a minor argument, but there'd be no reason for it. Like, it's not like we were involved in anything that would result in such a crime, you know.

[Interviewer]

No, no, absolutely not. And I guess between brothers, you just never know. You think something huge must have happened between the two of them because when we're thinking through our own lenses, not through Jonathan's lens.

[David Camarata]

Correct. He'd mentioned bizarre things. Like they weren't like, at the time, you know, I think back and I'm like, oh, they were just off the cuff comments, you know, like, people say things like, you know, I killed whatever. But he did mention slitting his brother's throat to me when he was working at the house. And I put it down to like, all right, he's just, you know, in a cranky mood. And although that might sound to the public like, oh, that's red flag.

[Interviewer]

No, but people, we say, you know,

[David Camarata]

yeah, but it was quite specific. And at the time I did think to myself a. That was a bit harsh. Yeah, like, you know, to say that. But on the same token, it didn't surprise me, coming out of his mouth, but he wasn't a violent person either at the time.

[Narrator]

If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start.

[Interviewer]

If that's not going to work for

[Narrator]

you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-Respect.org au or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14.

[Interviewer]

He was missing. He was on the run.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Police were looking for him.

[David Camarata]

Correct.

[Interviewer]

It's all over the media.

[David Camarata]

Yeah. And I mean, I got a call late one night and because at the time we had little babies. Right. So musical beds, you know, happens quite a bit. Right. So I was asleep upstairs and I got a phone call in the middle of the night and I've actually never been able to figure out who it was from, but it was like two days after the Whole murder thing. And I've never been able to even try and trace that call to figure out. And I don't know whether or not it was him calling me because he had my number, obviously, trying to see if he. I don't even know. But that was. Everything started to get just odd after that, like thinking whether or not you could be next or. So you start living a different sort of life.

[Interviewer]

I read the story a hundred times, but seeing that. Yeah, there's vision of it. We can clearly see you walking down your front steps, but there's another man waiting in your front yard and you can't see him as you're walking out your front door. Oh, it just made my stomach turn. It made me want to cry, actually, to be honest. I just had the weirdest reaction to. It's the way you skip down the first few stairs.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're so carefree.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

You know, you're a bloke in the

[Interviewer]

morning, skipping down those top. Yeah.

[Narrator]

Top few stairs of your beautiful house.

[Interviewer]

But I can see someone's laying in wait for you. Someone's standing right there to ambush you. It's horrible.

[David Camarata]

Yeah, it is. And that actually has caused the biggest issues to me now and the family as well, with the fact that I've got so, like, I've tried to stop this subject matter in a sense of it taking hold of your life. Problem is, I've got so many triggers from being attacked from behind, you know, I mean, there's so many things I don't. Like, people walking behind me, I don't. Like. We're at a friend's house and the doorbell rang and these friends of ours got up and went and opened the front door, and me and my wife were horrified. Like, how are you going to open the front door to somebody like that? Like, just so carefree and not from, you know, arm's distance or with a knife in your hand or something like that. Like, it's bizarre.

[Interviewer]

Well, get us to that point, though, because this first attack was with a hammer.

[David Camarata]

Yeah. So he crept, creeped out underneath and from the stairs, and then bang. I actually thought something had fallen off the roof and hit me in the head.

[Interviewer]

I bet. And then he just keeps coming for you down the driveway.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Narrator]

You managed to fight him off that time.

[Interviewer]

And then what, he. He just ran?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, he ran and I. There was a car and I thought, oh, awesome. Like, you know, because at the time, I. I mean, it hit me pretty hard. Right. And the. I was bleeding a lot, but I was also a bit Dazed as well.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[David Camarata]

So I thought, I'll grab the car and then we can just, you know, follow him from behind, figure out where he goes and then, you know, can get it sorted out that way. But he. The car swerved around me and, you know, must have thought, you know, it was this crazy guy in the middle of the street, right? Yeah. Yeah. So he went bleeding, by the way, bleeding everywhere. And I was probably a bit amped up as well. And then I ran over and grabbed the. The hammer that he dropped, and I thought, I'll chase him down. But at the time my neighbors had come out and I actually stopped running, I think, and there's a lot of screaming. It was pretty crazy chaotic seeing the kids in that there.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[David Camarata]

So after that, I. I actually went in the house and my kids were crying and, and which was horrible. And I distinctly remember my middle child saying, you know, you okay? And I had a cloth on the back of my head, but I took it. I thought it was a little scratch rugs. I wasn't thinking straight, so I took. And I mean, you could see right into my neck and there's like, you know, a huge piece of skin that was flapped open. You could see it was. It was brutal. Blood everywhere. And they all started not screaming, but, you know, getting worse. So after that ambulance came, police came, they sticky tape my head, and I left, which I wish now I didn't, because at the time, I think the police may have been thinking that we had been. He'd been staying with us or something because they were in the house all day with my wife, and she gave like six different statements and it was a huge day and I'd gone off to hospital, so I actually had to have surgery, but I left them there and I probably should have stayed behind. Right. But at the time I was thinking, you know, the ambulance was saying, you've got to get you to the hospital. It wasn't like a rush you off before you die situation. But still, you know, during the drive, you're still sort of thinking, well, you know, the police are just going to go and pick him up right down the street and everything will go back to normal. And, you know, I won't have to think about this anymore. But didn't turn out that way. Right.

[Interviewer]

So not for a really long time.

[David Camarata]

Really long time. He. Well, he was sort of. Obviously he disappeared. Right. So then we. We end up. The worst part about this was the year that we. We went into. After that was a year of. Of I pretty much knew full well that, that he was, if he waited that long, he's going to come back again. Right. So we knew we couldn't stay in our house. So we, we packed up all three kids, some of our belongings, not even all of them. And then we went to live with somebody. So we lived with somebody for a week. I was back at work, which is even more ridiculous. I was back at work four days after the attack, stitches in my head still. Then we were living with a friend of ours and then we couldn't stay there forever. It was really kind of them to give, give us, you know, their space. Then we moved in with my sister in law. They've got two kids, so you could imagine there's already five kids in a house, plus they've got a life to live as well. So we lived there for three months and then we moved again. So that's, you know, move number three with three kids, which is hard enough as it is.

[Interviewer]

At the same time jumping at shadows.

[David Camarata]

Yeah. As well as like trying to get, you know, and I was hell bent on not getting caught out again. And that causes problems down the track. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's.

[Interviewer]

I mean your adrenaline must have been at redlining.

[David Camarata]

It was crazy. 24 hours a day, all day, every day. And I'm not even embarrassed to say I've, I've jumped at my own shadow. I've been swooped by birds and just about had a heart attack. You name it, I've done it. But on the same token, all that stuff kept me alive. Right. So I can't complain. You got to live with the consequences afterwards. But if I didn't, there's potential, you know, I might not be here still. So yeah, we move again. And a whole lot of things, you know, happened during that period. Like we move into a place and this is not in a bad area, but we're renting. I'm paying a mortgage as well. So you got financial things you're dealing with, you've got security, massive security concerns. We've got the kids that are all uprooted from their normal lives. My wife's doing double the amount of driving that she normally would, plus trying to deal with what's going on, you know, things that people don't see crazily. Like I was on my way home one day about to pull into the driveway of this rental property and this is like I say, it's not a bad area that, that we're in and there was a guy hiding around a corner sort of Peeking. Peeking around a corner at. At somebody's front door, right next door to where we were living. And I went inside, I said, this is what's going on next door. And my wife's like, oh. I said, listen, I can't live with myself if someone walks out that door. And so I went across. And then it turns out the guy was living in the house, but he had some major mental health issues. And then he tried to befriend me. And I was already a little bit on the sketchy side of being around people, you know, unfortunately. I know it's part of the community, but I was struggling a bit. And then one night in the middle of summer, we were there, and I hear a girl yelling out, rape. Like, at the top, like, blood curdling, screaming. So I run out there out and go to jump the fence. And I realized the police are there. And this girl also has some. Some major mental health issues. So we had it on both sides. We just couldn't catch a break. They ended up selling that property, so we had to move again. So we moved back onto the other side of town, and we're living in hiding there. And, yeah, it just kept going and going until the day we captured him and then could sort of go back to normal after.

[Interviewer]

Unbelievable. And you're right, you're hyper vigilant paid off that day.

[David Camarata]

It did.

[Interviewer]

I mean, I'll never forget hearing that story that day, just going, no, that can't be. I just couldn't understand it as I was hearing it. And then. And then I had to read it over and over again going, hang on, that's the same guy. That's the. Tell us how it unfolded from your perspective.

[David Camarata]

Well, one of the craziest things was that I was so worked up with everything. I didn't realize it at the time, but now I look back, I was. So when I say it's like on point to what was going on around me. He'd been stalking me, I think for nine days or something previous to us captioning.

[Interviewer]

But you had no idea.

[David Camarata]

I had no idea.

[Interviewer]

You literally had not seen or heard from him in a year.

[David Camarata]

No. Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

Since that day in your driveway. Nobody had.

[David Camarata]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

He was the most wanted guy in Australia, I think, at the time. Like, there were, you know, literally posters. It was everywhere. Victoria police trying everything to find this guy. Could not find him.

[David Camarata]

That's right. And we. I'd been. That he'd been stalking me, and I hadn't seen him. I hadn't actually Caught a glimpse of him, but I was aware of what was going on around me. So he'd been pretty good like that, but in his not being seen. But my brother in law saw him in the car park where, where we were parking and he rang me and said, I think I saw him. And I said, I said, listen, I'll go down and have a look myself. And the police, I thought because I'd heard the police as soon as they heard his name would sort of go there. And that time when he, after he'd called the police, the police said, we'll look into it. But when I got there, it was only like half an hour after he called me. A, I couldn't see anybody and B, there was no police. I was like. And at the time I'd actually taken up smoking and I hadn't smoked for many years, but I was reaching for anything just to keep me going. So, so I was standing in the alleyway and I was smoking a cigarette and anyway, I sort of thought, ah, it couldn't be, you know, so I went back to work and then my brother in law happened to be over for dinner two nights later and we were talking about it and I said, oh, you know, and he's, he was a bit upset that the police hadn't called him back and blah blah, blah. And I said, oh look, maybe it's nothing. And they've already checked it out on the cctv. And then the very Monday I pulled into work and I caught a glimpse of him. But when I say I caught a glimpse of him, it was so slight and from such a distance away that I look back on it now and like I was so ready for what was going on. So I'd driven in and luckily, thank God, I got a car park right on the ground level and he was on Flinders street, just near Hosier Lane, just peeking out like someone sort of peeking around a corner. And I saw a hat pulled down and it looked like a disguise.

[Interviewer]

Right, and he was looking at you?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, he was watching me.

[Interviewer]

So by that stage he knew roughly what time you arrived at work?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, that's right. Where I leave.

[Interviewer]

Where you park. Yeah, you know, which, which parking garage kind of thing you like to use.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So he was just waiting there for you?

[David Camarata]

Just waiting. And I mean he's smart enough obviously to know that I've been working at the same place for 25 years, so I'm going to be at that place. So he had all the mental capacity to know where I'd be, what, roughly what Times I'd get there. So all this pre planning and all this premeditation and all these things, and then when I caught a glimpse of him, I thought, all right, this is fine. When I say fine, I say, okay, well, this can be sorted now, because I know where he is. Sounds silly, but when you're hiding from a monster is scary. When you see a monster. Well, to me, it's not scary. It's just like a problem. You got to solve it. Right.

[Interviewer]

So can I ask, were you carrying a weapon?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, I was at the time. I was carrying a knife. And I also had a taser in my car, and I had that knife with me almost religiously almost everywhere I went. I'd be out on a jog and I'd have a knife with me. Everywhere I went, I had one, but I actually don't know. I think I threw it, but I don't know if I did or not. I may have dropped it because I was so. It sounds silly, but so excited to, like, all right, well, this is my chance. And, yeah, that's. That's where it was found by the police. And they asked me about. I said, yeah, it's mine. Look, I'm not embarrassed or at all concerned at the fact that I was hunting. If I. My kids actually saw the knife, and, I mean, it was with me all the time, and we'd be out on walks and I'd have it. Although it was a night, it didn't look like I was carrying a knife. Right. So it was folded up, and the kids would ask me what it was and that, and I'd say, oh, it's something to do, a work tool. And, you know, you give him a bit of a story and. And that was that. But there was no way I was getting caught out again without something with

[Interviewer]

me, because God knows he would have something with him.

[David Camarata]

Well, he did. Even the last time that they. Well, when we caught him, he had a bucket filled with a big. Another big, ugly kitchen knife and some. I think there was some other things in there. Hacksaw, who knows, rubber gloves or. You know, like I say, he's very intelligent in a sense that he can. He was planning things out really well. So if. If. If I hadn't saw him, he could have crept up on me and, you know, done the same thing he did to his brother.

[Interviewer]

Well, we can only assume that was the plan. Right?

[David Camarata]

Well, I. Yeah, 100. That was it. I chased him up Hosier Lane. I actually had my colleague with me, Dion, who is much bigger, much Stronger than what I am, thank God. And he was with me, and I. I took off. Like, I didn't wait for him, and I was well in front of him, but when I saw him, I sort of was a bit like, I wasn't sure. I didn't want to just go and grab some, you know, some guy and, you know, start punching and kicking him because, you know, get in big trouble for doing that. So I date him a little bit, and then he took off and I slipped over, and then he ended up running. We actually caught up with him exactly in the same spot where he was spying on me. And then as soon as we. We caught up with him, he sort of. We subdued him. Dion is a jiu jitsu guy, right? So as soon as he got him down, he sort of wrapped him up like a pretzel and then he wasn't going anywhere. I feel bad that Dion got a major injury to his hand and he had to have extensive surgery on his hand. His mum had come out and said that she was upset at the fact that he'd, you know, he'd been bashed and, you know, he had some. Some stitches and broken ribs. And I'm like, I'm not apologetic for that at all.

[Narrator]

In September 2020, after hearing evidence from two forensic psychiatrists that Jonathan Dick had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, Justice Lex Lasry accepted that he was suffering the effects of a severe mental illness when he killed his brother and attacked David Cammarata. He found Jonathon not guilty of murder, attempted murder, and stalking by way of mental impairment, and ruled that he be admitted as a forensic patient to the Thomas Embling Hospital. Unfortunately, as is often the case, there were no available beds, so Jonathon actually spent years in a psychiatric ward in prison.

[Interviewer]

It does seem difficult to understand at what point a person can be deemed normal if they are killing lots of people.

[David Camarata]

Well, correct.

[Interviewer]

If they're serial killing or.

[David Camarata]

Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, I understand that there's like a. Probably a gray area between the two people, but on the same token, you look at it and you think, well, I did say to the dpp, which are a whole nother story. You know, you could do three podcasts just on them and how you get treated with them, but I actually said to one of them, well, what if he had gone on and killed five, six, seven people? And she said to me that we'd look at it as exactly the same, because medically, the two doctors from both sides agreed, and that's it. So you look at it and go well, if that's the case, then a guy like Paul Denyer, technically, if they had have ruled that, then you would have taken him, he would have gone into the mental health system, you would be then medicating him and then potentially, and almost 100% putting him back out on the streets.

[Narrator]

Well, I mean, I don't know about that.

[Interviewer]

They will say, and we've spoken to people from this particular facility here in Melbourne, that Thomas Embling Hospital. They will say that. Look, you know, and other advocates will say that there's potential for you to stay in there a lot longer than you would have done actually, had you gone through the judicial system, because you're there until you prove that you shouldn't be.

[Narrator]

So that.

[Interviewer]

That's. How long is a piece of string.

[David Camarata]

All right. Well, as much as you're correct, I don't know if you've seen last week or the week before, they're due to now let outs that guy. I can't think of his name, but he murdered two people inside that facility.

[Interviewer]

Peko Lykovsky.

[David Camarata]

Yes. Yep, that's the one.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Has murdered two patients inside Thomas Embling. And he's been allowed out on day release to go fishing. I don't know if that's. I'm assuming that's a supervised day release and it's working towards more freedoms.

[David Camarata]

Then you look at the issue of Sean Price. Sean Price was a violent rapist. Okay. He was put into that facility. He stayed in there for, I think it was three or four years or something. They let him out, and then he killed that young lady who was out

[Interviewer]

on a walk, Masha Vukotic.

[David Camarata]

Again, I'm sure that they help people. Not a problem. And I'm not. Don't mean to completely demonize the place in that sense, because I understand people do have mental health issues and they need to be helped. However, the problem with, I believe, is with that hospital. And I get it. It's very difficult process to say how long can they keep people in there? But where does it work? Or how does it work when they do let these people out and like Marcia's family, they turn around and they go, oops, sorry, we got that one wrong.

[Interviewer]

Well, the other issue, I think potentially the biggest issue with that facility is that, or probably with any facility, is the lack of beds. I mean, it's bursting at the seams.

[David Camarata]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

In this situation specifically, Jonathon was actually waiting in a prison for how long? For over a year.

[David Camarata]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So he couldn't even get in There. Cause he didn't have a bed for him.

[David Camarata]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

So I think potentially there's pressure to release people, of course, because there are always more people needing to get in there, for one thing.

[David Camarata]

Exactly right.

[Interviewer]

So that's a funding issue.

[David Camarata]

That's right. But I mean, again, it sounds horrible to bring it back to you, to your own situation.

[Interviewer]

It doesn't at all. Your situation is as bad as it gets. And I don't think there's anyone who would think badly of you, because there has to be a feeling for you that if he is released, he might come back to you.

[David Camarata]

Well, that's the thing. I mean, I've got somebody. And the loss of life for me personally, outside of David, who passed away as well, which did affect me, my concern is with my own life, obviously. So them getting it wrong means that I potentially get stalked again. And if you've lived a good few years under the type of pressure and stress of having someone stalking you, it creates a lot of issues in every part of your life. I these days have to take four different types of medication, and these aren't all conscious. The problem with me is I've got all those triggers from day to day life. And that's from opening doors to I scold myself if I walk out of a door and I don't look each way, I can't handle if someone's a few meters behind me. I've got to ID him and then I've got to move. Things like that won't go away. And I look at it and I think if you allow him back out on the streets again, I get it, that he may be better. But if you've gotten it wrong, which you clearly have in the past, it could cost me my life or somebody else. And I think that that's a big risk to take to the community. He's already. From the last ZOOM meeting we had with the dpp, I was told and made aware that. And it was given to me, the news exactly like this. What I'm about to say, you're not going to be happy with that. Yeah, he's already been allowed out on supervised leave with guards. That's what. What are we now? Three, four years? So I get to live with all these things. And the way victims of crime work, you got. I think it's like five years. They'll, you know, help you with certain things. And I mean, I don't get direct help from them outside of like some of the financial reimbursements from some of my Psychiatry bills which are massive. And I look at it and I go, he gets all the help in the world. You know, they medicate him, house him. And again, I don't want him punished in a sense of, you know, they could put him up in a mansion and feed him grapes all day for all I. As long as he's not out on the street where he can. Can harm somebody or me again. That's the way I look at it, which is a very selfish way to look at it. But I look at it and I think, well, I just want to live a normal life. And we've got someone that's going around and yes, has mental health issues, but has brutally killed somebody and then tried twice to kill somebody else. And if he uses drugs again, that could potentially trigger him to whether it's stop taking medication or whatever the case. Now we've got someone that's got a clear history of not taking medication and being a chronic drug user at some point in his life that's killed two people. And you're still think the common sense thing is, is that we'll slowly release him back out into the public and hope he doesn't kill anyone.

[Interviewer]

Well, slowly reintegrate him. But again, that's what I'm asking you. Have they given you any impression that that is the plan, that this is about reintegrating Jonathon into. Back into society with a plan to release him from the hospital?

[David Camarata]

From the research I've done, that's exactly what the hospital is set out for and does. Because soon as those two doctors agreed, he then became a mental health patient.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely. And not part of the judicial system

[David Camarata]

or correction, part of the criminal system. So there's no.

[Interviewer]

Although I do know that Victoria police take responsibility for people, not always, but sometimes who are released from facilities like this for supervision in a similar way to parolees, for example. And there are various levels of that supervision. So I know there's that. But again, you know, I just. I'm not convinced that there's an imminent threat. But also, it's not. I'm not threatened. So I 100% understand where you're coming from.

[David Camarata]

That's right, yeah. Yeah. And until, like I was saying, hence why I was sort of talking about what it feels like when you're being stalked and to be attacked from behind if you haven't lived that way. It's a very difficult thing to describe to somebody that every second of your life during that period of time is taken into consideration, your steps. And I look at it and I think, well, the ramifications of him being re released is I've got to start living that life again. And until you. You truly get a sense of what that feels like. And I mean, you've probably spoke to other stalking victims before. It's such a horrible, horrible thing and it's so hard to live with, but you've just got to do it. And I look at it and I go, I survived two attempts on potentially three attempts on my life. And because you want him to be better, you're going to. And again, very selfish, but you're going to subject me and my family to that type of potential. Potential behavior. And now if it doesn't happen. Oh, that's great.

[Interviewer]

I see it even worse than that. I have to tell you. I see it as. Because you don't want to spend money on the mental health system, on reasonable, effective support for people. Yes. I'm sure there are clinicians who. Who spend their lives wanting to help people get better. I get that. Who work there. But I think overwhelmingly the problem is that there's not the money. There's not the budget, there's not the beds, there's not the programs. There's not the will, frankly, politically, to spend money on supporting and handling people properly.

[David Camarata]

Correct. I mean, I think there's like 100 beds there. So if there are a hundred beds full and then he comes in, who do they push out? The law says that a person that's deemed mentally ill and not responsible for their crimes shouldn't or didn't know what they were doing at the time. We've got somebody that has spent years planning the stalking and murder of someone and executed the stalking of the murder of somebody. And again, question is that not the same thing? You've got somebody that potentially knows or knew exactly what they were doing was wrong.

[Interviewer]

Okay, I know it's a difficult question because I don't think. And I think the thinking is he wouldn't have wanted to. He wouldn't have had motive had he not been mentally ill. That's the thinking. That's the.

[David Camarata]

Yeah, I agree. And I get their position. And the thing is, as well, that same guy that drove his car down Bourke Street.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[David Camarata]

He was in a paranoid schizophrenic state. Yeah, you could hear it. You've probably heard all the audio, same as I've heard. Okay, now I agree with what. Where he is right now. All right. 100 agreements. But they went to trial. And then even after hearing all that evidence of him being in psychosis at the time they still found him criminally liable for what he did yet over this side. And you've got got a seasoned homicide detective that's written an extremely long email stating the fact that what the dangers are of this guy and just falls on death ears. So I just look at it and I go, I can't stand any of the processing because from start to finish it's been just terrible. So we're left to pick up the pieces and I'm left in the state that I am now, which is, yeah, I function during the day, right? And I function and I can, I can go about without not, not thinking about it, but I can't at the same time because each time I get triggered which I thought was just gonna go away, but I've burnt in my subconscious that much that that's what kept me alive. That doesn't go away. So I look at it and I go, that's the price I've paid to stay alive. During the discussions with the dpp, it's like, oh, it's okay, we understand. You don't understand anything at all. You patting me on the back is not going to make me feel better right now. I'm medicated. I don't want to be medicated. For what? Got to tranquilize me so I can sleep without violent night terrors and things like that and I can put up with it all. But I look at it and I go, and you're still going to potentially force my family to live like that. I'm like, where's the common sense? It's like as soon as they fall over that line that they're now a mental patient, then it's okay. Could have killed 50 people.

[Interviewer]

It seems to me too that you're not being included, obviously, and victims never are. You're not being even informed as to what's happening, what the likelihood of a release or anything like that. So that seems to me to sort of play into similar feelings as those feelings of not knowing where he is when you are being stalked. Is that fair to say?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Interviewer]

No control, not know what's going on.

[David Camarata]

That's right. And that's the worst part. I mean, even I said to psychiatrists the other day, if I was able, I don't want to because you couldn't get me in a room with him ever again. If we're ever around each other, it's going to end real bad, really bad. But the thing is, is I want to speak to him because I mean, at the End of the day, that person that attacked me, I don't know. I don't know him at all in. In that sense. So I only know my friend who is my best man at my wedding. Right. So for me, I grapple with the fact that all my nightmares don't come from being killed or anything like that. It comes from me talking to him and then him exploding into some sort of rage. So my brain doesn't recognize the fact that, you know, that was your friend. Right. I don't have issues with. With people. So for me, I can't. It's really difficult to grapple with the fact that I had someone that. Yeah, we had a little altercation, like a minor, minor argument, and then all of a sudden it's gone on some sort of killing spree. And it is just the damage that's left behind. And you got to live with it. And day to day, you know, it. It's made me a worse person in some aspects. Like, I can drift off when I'm talking to the kids. The kids might be talking to me, and I'll just drift off into my own little world. I get stuck inside my head and I don't look at things like, in life, like, that's not fair, but I don't think that is fair. And then to put me back into that spot, I look at it and I just think, even if there's a slight possibility. It sounds horrible. If there's a slight possibility that he could potentially go out and start using drugs and then end up in the same boat, am I at risk? You can't tell me no. So keep him there. That's as bluntly as I look at it.

[Interviewer]

And it strikes me that families who have the parole issue to deal with after a certain number of years, they know when that's gonna come back up. That comes up every three years, say. And so they. It's horrible. But every three years they have to get back out there in the media and they have to retell the story and relive it, but they know when it's coming. Yeah, you don't know that.

[David Camarata]

Don't know anything. We're not allowed to know anything. Even. Even. I was told by the homicide detective that even when he's allowed out on day release, the police get notified, but not of what he has done. All those things. They just get told that if this person, they get sent some kind of message to say that this type of person is out, but not with specifics. So they don't even give me a phone Call to say, hey, we're just going to test him out down at Northland Shopping center or High Point Shopping center, maybe steer clear of that place.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[David Camarata]

You know, and talking to a victim in that sense of like, what's happened to me and where I'm at is completely different to how. How someone else would feel. If you're. Imagine if you're a rape victim and you're not like me, who potentially, you know, there'd be a violent altercation if I saw him again. We're talking about someone that's been way worse, affected what I ever will be, and they've got to bump into this person down at the shops, like, for real counselling.

[Interviewer]

Are you in counselling? Is it specific PTSD counselling? Where are you at with that?

[David Camarata]

Yeah, I hear something funny. I got a letter from the victims of crime asking for an explanation. Why from Cause I stopped seeing a psychologist and it took me no one. I actually had to beg because of COVID I couldn't get in to see anyone.

[Interviewer]

I know there were no appointments in there.

[David Camarata]

There was nothing. So I didn't see someone for ages and ages. And the person who I'm seeing now wouldn't see me, refused because it was a crime matter. And they're like, yeah. And he had been called in to give evidence in another case, and it took him out of practice for, like, so long because he was constantly in court, so he didn't want to see. See me at all. So I had to sign something for him, which is perfectly fine, saying that I will never ask him to come into court with me and things like that. Brilliant. He's helped me heaps. 100. But as I mentioned to him, I don't want to see him anymore because I feel like I'm just talking about the same old stuff. And I don't go in there and start talking about what we're talking about here today. It's more around me trying to get me a decent night's sleep. And that's where my anger comes from. Because I look at it and I go, well, I should have just been able to put it behind me. But the problem is you can't. And I thought. I thought that it sounds bad, but I thought I was mentally strong enough to be able to just, you know, whatever happened, big deal, it's done, it's over. But I've think I've done some damage to myself in a sense of trying to stay alive. I'm a different father than sometimes than I should be because of this. And it's not that my kids suffer. My kids are fantastic and they're amazing and my wife's absolutely unbelievable, but I subject them to things sometimes that, you know, like this, the night terrors and the this and that. And, you know, it doesn't. And my older boys shouldn't have to think someone was plotting to kill dad. For what? For nothing. And I'm like, you know, it's not what I wanted for them. I did everything possible to try and make a normal life just for us guys. That's it. Nothing special, just normal. But it's not normal. It's not normal anymore. So, yeah.

[Narrator]

Thank you to our guest, David Camarata. We should note that the Victorian state government has recently undertaken an upgrade of the Thomas Embling Hospital, which has seen an extra 80 beds added the facility. There are now around 200 beds in total. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on

[Interviewer]

131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect.

[Narrator]

Org AU.

[Interviewer]

Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org AU.

[David Camarata]

The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.