Brianna Maitland’s Last Known Movements - ATC International

Summary

Australian True Crime – International: Brianna Maitland’s Last Known Movements (April 8, 2026)

Summary

Main Theme and Purpose
This episode of Australian True Crime International, hosted by Meshel Laurie, dives into the mysterious 2004 disappearance of 17-year-old Brianna Maitland in rural Vermont. Featuring Tim Polari and Lance Reensturner (creators of the Missing Maura Murray podcast), the discussion covers Brianna’s case details, its connections and contrasts with the Maura Murray disappearance, missteps in the investigation, ongoing efforts to solve the case, and the persistent impact on Brianna’s family. The episode also reflects on the broader role of true-crime podcasts in aiding investigations and supporting affected families.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction: From Maura Murray to Brianna Maitland

• The hosts discuss starting as ordinary people fascinated by true-crime mysteries, eventually becoming integrated into investigations due to podcast exposure and community engagement.
  • “We kind of are part of the investigation now. So yeah, it just got away from us at some point.” – Tim [01:39]
• They describe how the Maura Murray podcast led to Bruce Maitland (Brianna’s father) reaching out, initiating detailed coverage of Brianna’s case on the Crawlspace podcast and eventually the founding of the nonprofit “Private Investigations for the Missing” [03:36–05:23], which offers investigative help to families with missing relatives.

The Disappearance: What Happened to Brianna Maitland?

• Brianna Maitland, aged 17, vanished on March 19, 2004, after leaving her shift at the Black Lantern Inn around 11:20pm. Her car, a 1985 Oldsmobile 88, was found about a mile away, backed into and hung up against an abandoned house (“the Dutch Burn house”) [06:22–07:45].
• The hosts clarify that while Brianna’s and Maura’s cases share superficial elements (young women disappearing after driving alone at night, cars left in unusual circumstances near quiet highways), their personal lives and circumstances were quite distinct [06:22–07:45].
• Speculation arises from the position of Brianna’s car—believed she reversed hard, possibly trying to escape someone, and got stuck on the house’s foundation [07:45–08:09].

Who Was Brianna? Her Social Life, Challenges, and Recent Events

• Brianna had been couch surfing, living with a friend named Jillian at the time of her disappearance. She had a volatile social life with school changes and multiple jobs, working hard to earn her GED [09:04–11:43].
• A major incident before her disappearance: Brianna was assaulted by a friend, Keely, resulting in visible injuries (two black eyes). Despite having a black belt in jiu jitsu, she didn’t defend herself, possibly due to guilt or being taken by surprise [13:01–14:09].
  • “One of the more raw and honest things that we've had any parents say… Bruce said that he has all of the memories that he needs… and they're not for anybody else.” – Tim [10:13]
• The assault charges against Keely evaporated when Brianna vanished; Keely and their friend group (understandably) fell under suspicion but no definitive link was established [14:31–15:38].

Investigation Shortcomings: Lost Time and Lost Evidence

• Brianna was not immediately reported missing due to her transient lifestyle; friends and family assumed she was staying elsewhere [16:34–16:49].
• Police failed to treat her abandoned car as a crime scene:
  • They towed the car without investigation, despite obvious signs (uncashed paychecks, wallet, phone, medication left behind) [16:55–19:40].
  • Her parents only learned the car had been impounded when they attempted to file a missing person report days later and were shown a photo of the car [18:24–19:07].
  • “It's pretty egregious… to just tow the car and not investigate it, not call who owned the car. Are you serious?” – Lance [17:24]
• The mishandling of the scene is compared to other infamous lost evidence tragedies, emphasizing community and police failures to recognize foul play [17:38–18:24].

The Aftermath: Family Impact and Community Rumors

• The family (Bruce, Kelly, and Brianna’s brother Wayland) endured rumors, stigma, and the pain of knowing the investigation was badly mishandled [23:04–23:50].
• In small communities, wild, distressing rumors proliferated—everything from Brianna being held captive to grisly theories about her fate [24:10–24:21].
• Bruce sometimes pushed police to follow up on rumors and in one case prompted a raid leading to unrelated criminal arrests [24:10–24:29].

Persons of Interest and Dead Ends

• Two names repeatedly surfaced: Ramon Ryans and Nathaniel Jackson—outsiders reportedly trying to lasso women into drug and criminal activity. Police, prodded by Bruce, searched properties and made arrests (drugs/weapons), but found nothing linking them directly to Brianna [24:42–25:45].
• DNA evidence tested in the early 2020s produced matches to people unrelated to the crime; DNA from Brianna’s car was checked against 11 persons of interest [27:08–28:10].

Theories and Application of Occam's Razor

• The hosts and Meshel debate likely scenarios:
  • Most agree Brianna was “extracted from the car by someone meaning to do her harm” and that a violent altercation likely occurred at the scene (necklace found in grass; driver seat inconsistencies) [29:08–29:52].
  • Occam’s Razor is frequently invoked, sometimes unhelpfully:
    • “It really gets under my skin when people say, ‘Well, Occam's Razor, she was drunk and spun off the road.’ Well, now you’re adding those things…” – Lance [30:01]
  • The consensus: foul play is overwhelmingly likely, but no single clear suspect emerges.

Witnesses and New Developments (2023–2024)

• New witnesses (a couple, wanting anonymity for credible, private reasons) came forward. Their account:
  • Drove past Dutch Burn house: car not present.
  • On return, saw Brianna’s car hung up, another car (silver Honda sedan) present, and a “stocky” hooded man on the scene—no sign of Brianna.
  • Their car was almost hit by the sedan in what resembled a high-speed chase; these clues suggest a rapid, violent abduction [34:24–39:09].
  • “Love the fact that someone came forward, but it's confirming that. Okay. It does seem more likely that foul play happened.” – Tim [38:19]
• Timeline is compressed—signs point to the incident happening just minutes after Brianna left work, challenging previous theories of a planned meet or confrontation at the house [39:00–40:17].

Family Hope and the Search for Closure

• Bruce Maitland remains “certainly determined and… will call people up in Vermont whenever he feels it necessary… So he is still very focused on solving Brianna’s case.” [33:08–33:56]
• The hosts express hope that with time, changing allegiances, or new tips, the truth may yet emerge:
  • “Time is a great element that should help the case. I would say it hasn’t really yet. The witnesses that came forward last year, that was certainly interesting.” – Tim [34:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We went through it one step at a time and took the audience with us the entire way. You know, really blindly going about producing that podcast without any guidance from anyone, just using our own, you know, moral compass.” – Lance [02:40]
• “Does what it says on the tin… Like calling a podcast Australian True Crime.” – Meshel [04:35]
• “Everything about that car was, like, screamed foul play… you have a crime scene.” – Tim [21:10]
• “Occasionally you can accidentally [commit] a perfect murder.” – Meshel [32:39]
• “I think time is a great element that should help the case… The witnesses that came forward last year, that was certainly interesting.” – Lance [34:13]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] – Introduction & origins of the Maura Murray podcast, transition to Brianna Maitland’s case
• [06:22] – Brianna’s last known movements and car discovery
• [09:04] – Brianna’s personal background and challenges
• [13:01] – The assault incident with Keely, social dynamics
• [16:34] – Delay in reporting Brianna missing
• [16:55] – Police mishandling of the crime scene
• [18:24] – Family realization and trauma
• [23:04] – Community rumors, family consequences
• [24:42] – Arrest of Ryans and Jackson; investigation dead ends
• [27:08] – DNA investigations and police theories
• [29:08] – Application of Occam’s razor and likely scenario analysis
• [34:24] – Witnesses step forward, recounting suspicious activity the night of disappearance
• [39:00] – Witness testimony reshapes the timeline
• [33:08/34:13] – Bruce Maitland’s ongoing advocacy and hope

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Final Thoughts
The discussion balances methodical case review with empathy for Brianna’s family, highlighting both investigative insights and systemic failings. The episode serves as an accessible deep dive for listeners unfamiliar with the case, and a call to see true-crime podcasting as a force for public good, not just morbid curiosity.

Transcript

[A]

This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. One of my favourite all time favourite true crime podcasts is Missing Maura Murray. Over the course of several years, Tim Polari and Lance Reensturner investigated the mysterious disappearance of 21 year old Maura whose car was found abandoned by the side of a desolate stretch of highway three hours away from her home. It appeared the car had accidentally left the road in Haverville, New Hampshire and become stuck, although no one can explain why Maura had driven there. That happened in September 2004 and Maura is still missing. In March of that same year, 17 year old Brianna Maitland disappeared from her car by the side of a desolate stretch of highway in Montgomery, Vermont about a two and a half hour drive from the location of Maura's abandoned car. Brianna's father approached the makers of Missing Maura Murray asking them for help and they join us today to tell us about the case. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created. The Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence. I am excited to speak to you both because obviously I've been listening to you for a very long time. The Maura Murray podcast is, I mean I think it's potentially the most famous investigative. That's a hard word to say podcast ever. I feel like it's, it's like a real benchmark show. How does it feel to you guys?

[B]

Yeah, I'll take that, we'll take, we'll take that. I mean we definitely didn't set out to have anyone say like, oh, this is the most famous investigative podcast. But I think like getting started right around cereal was a good, you know, kind of launching point for us. So the more we got into it and the more we started talking to people outside of just those who are super invested in the disappearance, you know, like regular people who are just contributing to stuff online. The more family members reached out and law enforcement reached out, we realized sort of for better or worse, like, oh, we kind of are part of the investigation now. So yeah, yeah, it just kind of got away from us at some point.

[A]

But I think that's part of what makes it great is you come across as very genuine, just curious people saying this is a weird mystery. It doesn't feel like you're overreaching yourselves. It doesn't feel like you're trying to make a great podcast even. You know what I mean? It Just feels like a very natural interest that you're sharing with us and we're all on the journey.

[C]

Well, that's definitely true. I mean, if. I'm glad to hear that it came across that way. We. We went through it one step at a time and took the audience with us the entire way. You know, really blindly going about producing that podcast without any guidance from anyone, just using our own, you know, moral compass. And, you know, we were not investigators and still aren't, but like, especially then, like, we were have always been curious people. So I think that's where that comes from.

[A]

Yeah. And so, of course, naturally, it kind of that. That show and that investigation, it sort of reached its natural conclusion in a way. It's still certainly a mystery. But then I guess you were faced with a moment of do we keep doing episodes going back over old ground or do we start talking about other cases? Right.

[B]

Yeah. We actually were contacted by Bruce Maitland, who is the father of Brianna Maitland. She disappeared about a month after Maura disappeared and within a, you know, relative same area about 90 miles away and very similar circumstances where the car is found on the side of the road. Probably a little bit more. There's. There's more of a criminal or there was more of a chance of foul play in Briana's disappearance. And Bruce Maitland reached out to us and asked if we wanted to cover Brianna. So we were like, absolutely. And we actually started the crawl space podcast with the series on Brianna and then did other missing persons. And then Bruce asked us if we wanted to be on the board of his nonprofit, which helps families hire licensed private investigators to look for their family members. It's called Private Investigations for the Missing. Very straightforward name because it's what you put into Google. That's what Bruce wanted. He wanted a name that you could just like. Families put that into Google all the time.

[A]

Does what it says on the tin is the way I described. It's like calling a podcast Australian True Crime. You just. It just does what it says.

[B]

Exactly. Why get cute with the title when that's exactly what people are looking for?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So after a series of vetting, we will talk about some of the people who the non profit is looking into. So the disappearance of Maura Murray turned into contact with Bruce Maitland, which turned into the nonprofit. We also have people who reach out to us on their own, separate from the nonprofit, who have a missing mother, father, sister, brother, and we'll look into those individuals as well. But that's. That's kind of like how the world or The. The. The missing universe built itself up, which is.

[A]

It's great, isn't it? It's rewarding because I started this podcast around the same time you started the first one, Maura Murray. And so I feel like we've, as a genre, grown to this point where it's like, okay, why am I doing this? Is this misery porn? Or am I sort of connecting, engaging with people and being part of solutions, being part of helping people? And that's obviously what you're doing with this with your private investigators group. Tell us about then, the story of Brianna. When I initially started listening, like everybody else, I thought, oh, wow, this is very similar to Maura Murray's disappearance. We've got young woman, you know, similar age, driving by herself at nighttime. As you say, similar sort of area not too far apart. Somebody finds her car, but we never find her. But actually, the similarities are quite superficial, aren't they, once we really get to know Brianna's story?

[C]

Yeah, they are. And it's clear Maura and Brianna didn't know each other and didn't, you know, have overlap in their circles or anything like that. Brianna was 17 years old when she went missing, and Maura was 21. Maura was in college. So, yeah, their social lives, everything much different, though the location, about 80 miles apart. So Brianna went missing from Montgomery, Vermont on March 19, 2004, after leaving her shift as a dishwasher at the Black Lantern Inn. And she had left at approximately 11:20pm driving her vehicle, which was a 1985 Oldsmobile 88. And she was heading to the place where she was staying, living with her roommate at the time. The car, you know, and. And Brianna obviously never, never made it that far. The car made it about a mile down the road in the direction it should have been traveling, but it was hung up against a house, actually an abandoned house. And it was sort of attached to it.

[A]

It's like it has been reversed into it, wasn't it? And then.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Probably the person was unable to get it loose from there.

[C]

That seems to be exactly what it was. You know, if we're picturing what happened it, I would imagine Brianna hit the reverse, you know, pretty hard to try to get away from somebody or some situation, and slammed into the back of. Or slammed the back of her car into this abandoned house. And it actually got stuck up on the foundation of that house.

[A]

It's very beautiful landscape, isn't it, this area? And it's like, for Australians, it's like kind of movie set stuff. It's kind of Countryside. It's within a few minutes of leaving work. Was it snowing? What time of year was it?

[B]

This is the beginning of March. I don't believe that it was snowing at the time. I think the roads are pretty clear because we actually had a new witness come forward in the past year or so and they described sort of a. It is sort of like a high speed chase that happened, unofficial chase. I mean they weren't law enforcement, they weren't being chased by law enforcement. But there's never been any talk of, you know, black ice or anything on the road.

[A]

Tell us a bit about Brianna. She's an interesting character. She Being 17 and living with a roommate and all that. I think I remember that she was sort of couch surfing really at this stage. Is that right?

[C]

Yeah, she was doing some couch surfing. Had been living with her friend, I believe, Jillian, at the time of her disappearance. Yeah. I will say like we don't get into that, the details of that too much when we speak with Bruce. Her disappearance is so painful and you know, he doesn't want to revisit certain things and I get that. But I think certain questions sort of lead him to blame himself, you know, and I don't want him to do that and he shouldn't be doing that.

[A]

You know, listen, I've got teenagers so I don't blame anyone for what's going on with their 16 or 17 year old. There's a lot that goes on with them and a lot of finding yourself and trying on different personalities and you know, hooking up, up with friends who aren't great. And also there's a lot of, I find getting yourself into trouble and I'm sure you remember this yourself from when you're a teenager. You get yourself into trouble sometimes you don't know how to get out of.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Get into very adult situations that you're perhaps not really ready for.

[B]

Yeah. One of the more like raw and honest things that we've had any parents say to us and it was from Bruce when he said that he has all of the memories that he needs to access of Brianna tucked away in the corner of his mind and he'll access them when he wants to access them and they're not for anybody else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anytime we've spoken to him, I mean, I think one of the first things he ever said to us was like, I don't want to talk about her. I don't want to talk about her as like a per. Like he wanted to talk about the disappearance. He wanted to Talk about how to find your answers. But he wasn't like, it's a testament to him. Like, he wasn't being rude about it at all. He was just saying that part of her is in my mind that only I'm allowed. And it's really one of the most, like, brutally honest things that we've heard. But she was like somebody who probably was a little bored in that town as anybody who's 17 years old and it's a small town like in northern New England. But she was trying. She was working multiple jobs. She had a job. She had a shift, like the next morning in another town. So she wanted to get some rest. She took the exam to receive her GED that morning, that Friday morning on the 19th.

[A]

Explain that to us. Is that that's when you've dropped out of school but you go back and study to get to graduate, essentially. Is it correct?

[B]

Yeah, it's your high school diploma equivalency.

[A]

Pretty hard working, motivated young woman who's still trying to keep life on track.

[B]

Well, yeah. And think about, like most kids graduate high school when they're 17 or 18 years old. So she wasn't even that far behind. She was 17. So it was just after. And it probably wasn't due to the fact that, like, she was a bad student. She probably just didn't like going to school. And that's just me making that assumption.

[C]

Well, no, I think she had a lot of friends and different friend groups and she moved schools for a specific reason, like because she wanted to not be near one group of friends.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I will say what we've learned about Brianna from her friends is that she, she seems like, like she was a lot of fun to hang out with, had a lot of friends and had a lot of good times with those friends. Now there was the incident with Keely, though, where there was a fight at. At a party where she was essentially attacked by one of her friends. Obviously Keely in that moment was not a good friend, but I think she was mad at her for, you know, for personal friend reasons. That is not that unusual. What's unusual is that, well, she punched her in the face and assaulted her. But also that Brianna went missing.

[A]

Yeah. But also that Brianna has a black. Or had a black belt in karate or whatever it was in a martial art and didn't defend herself. There's a few things that are interesting about that fight.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, she. She did have a black belt in jiu jitsu for her age group. And that, like, is super impressive. That takes A lot of discipline. But if I'm. If the story is. Is different from what we've originally been told, she was in. In a vehicle.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she was punched. Not, I'm. I'm saying through the open window. It wasn't smashed or anything. Yeah, she was punched through the open window and probably didn't have, like, the reaction time to, like, get out of the car or do anything like that. Like, she probably could have escalated the fight by getting out of the car. But I mean, when you see the picture of her, she has two black eyes, it probably stunned her. So. Yeah. And she probably just wanted to leave the. Leave that situation, you know?

[A]

Do you think that she felt sort of that she had done the wrong thing by Keely in some way or.

[C]

I think so. I think she probably felt guilty about what had happened and from my understanding was she was hanging out. Out with one of. One of their mutual friends who I think Keely was dating.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But I don't think there was anything more to it than that. Also, it should be noted, like, Brianna's. While. Yes, she was trained in jiu jitsu and reportedly from her friends, could kick butt. But she. She was pretty small, pretty petite, I will say, whereas I think Keely was a bit bigger than her.

[A]

But you're right, it changes from two kids having a fight about something silly to now one of them's disappeared. So obviously Keely would've been under the microscope, I'm assuming, and everyone around that circle.

[C]

Yeah, well, the assault charge disappeared because Brianna was missing and, you know, is still missing. So she never had to face any justice or any legal ramifications for that. No, I. I want to say that. I'm not saying I think she's responsible,

[A]

but it's something for police to look at.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a weird thing. And she has been somewhat outspoken. I know she spoke with one of our colleagues, Chloe, a few years ago in a pretty detailed interview, and she really did not speak to too many people about what happened, but really did open up to Chloe, which was interesting to hear. And I think when people open up like that, it makes you think that they're not guilty of something, you know, that they're not hiding anything. You know, she seemed pretty open in that conversation.

[A]

Well, again, we always have to put things into context, don't we, and think about how closed you would become if you were Keely and you've had this completely unrelated fight about a boyfriend with a friend of yours, and then she goes missing and again, you're living in a small community, all of those things, of course, you would kind of want to hide, I would think, and not speak at all. Be scared of saying the wrong thing. We've all seen the documentaries there. Someone ends up in jail for the rest of their life, you know, for accidentally saying the wrong thing. The reason also that I brought up Brianna's living situation, that she was couch surfing and not, not living anywhere in particular, is that when she went missing, it took a little while for her to be reported missing too. And when you take that into account, that's understandable. Initially, whenever you hear someone's been missing for three days and no one reported them, you think, okay, what the hell? But this is one of those situations where you can understand that everyone just assumed she was somewhere else. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Because I don't think it was that unusual for there to be a drop in communication, you know, back then. And, you know, she was working a number of jobs, a couple of jobs. So if you didn't hear from her, she was probably at one of her shifts.

[A]

Well, probably maybe the most disturbing thing about that is the way then the car and the scene were treated by police. Right.

[C]

Yeah. This is disappointing. And, and you know, we've been over it quite a bit and, and the Vermont State Police does not appreciate when we discuss how they, you know, sort of mishandled things initially. But what are we going to do that they did? It's pretty egregious, I would say, to look at that scene. It's egregious to look at that photo and just tow the car and not investigate it, not call who owned the car. Are you serious?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I, I'm very disappointed in that. And I think the people who, you know, are responsible for that are regretful as well, you know, but yeah, it's pretty inexcusable.

[A]

We have a case in Australia, a long standing mystery, the disappearance of a little boy called William Tyrrell. Initially, this boy is reported missing. And so it was a small community, so people came to help search with horses, with dogs, just local people. But what it meant was that within a very short period of time, the scene was completely corrupted. There was no chance they could ever search the scene properly or treat it properly as a crime scene. And that's what this one had me thinking of as well, that I get that initially you could look at this scenario and go, someone's drunk, they've spun out in their car and ended up smashed against this house. But to not for a police member to not look at It. And ask questions. Unbelievable.

[B]

Oh, it really is. And especially when the way that Bruce and Kelly found out was because they were going to file the missing person report and the trooper in St. Albans had shown them a picture in Vermont. St. Albans, Vermont. Shown them a picture of it and said. And asked them if they recognized that. And I think what we had been told was that it made Kelly, like, physically sick to see it. Her mom, I.

[A]

It would make me physically sick to see my child's car.

[B]

Yeah. And realize, like, after five days, at least five days of the. Or more at this point, this is. This is the scenario that their daughter was in before she disappeared.

[A]

Well, tell me, is this true? Paychecks still inside? Wallet and personal effects still inside?

[B]

Yeah. Uncashed paychecks. Yeah.

[A]

Obviously with her name all over them and all of that. So no one's just. No one is bothered?

[C]

No. And, you know, there's like six state or detectives in the state of Vermont, so they're pretty understaffed as far as, like, investigation. But you don't have to be like Sherlock Holmes to. To look at a. The front seat and see the name and make a few phone calls.

[A]

Well, that's all. And also, surely they. They rely upon the troopers and the sort of, you know, those guys to bring their attention to troubling scenarios. And. And this has got troubling written all over it. And yet it's four or five days before anyone sort of realizes that. And that's when her parents reported missing.

[C]

Yeah. And can I add that it. It was so troubling to a group of skiers who were driving by that they pulled over and took photographs of it. So the photographs that you see online are from this random group of people, these guys who called themselves the world travelers. They went skiing in different areas and documented it, and they just happened to pull over because they thought it looked weird, took photos. I think the photo that the trooper showed the Maitlands was, like, from his cell phone, you know, circa 2004. A 2004 cell phone. So, like, this case would not. Would not have had the media footprint if it weren't for those people who took that photo, because there wouldn't be photos like that. That photo is one of the reasons this case stands out to people, in my opinion.

[A]

And her parents would have had no idea, no clue at all, because all they know is the police. The police have impounded the car. By the time they realize something's going on. So they would have had no idea of the circumstances, which I think you do want As a parent, I think you do want as much information as you can get. Want to see where they last were seen, all of those things that are horrible. But you want them, right?

[B]

Yeah. You know, and again, not to. But I will critique the investigation. Everything about that car was, like, screamed foul play. And. And I believe. And correct me if I'm wrong, it was registered to Kelly, to Brianna's mom. So they had that name attached to it. And. And then inside the car, it was clear that it was the daughter. There's names on the paychecks, on everything. Paychecks?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She also had migraine medication and her contact lenses. I mean, everything that's in that car. ATM card, cell phone, wallet, like, purse, migraine medication, contact lenses. The car's hung up in the back of a house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't care how understaffed you are, you have a crime scene.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's so clearly a crime crime scene.

[A]

It's full of stuff no one would leave behind deliberately if they had just had an accident, decided to walk home or whatever. So what happens next? I mean, I. I guess the. The investigation is starting from a terrible place.

[C]

I think it was a tough relationship at first between the Maitlands and the police, but it has since gotten much better. The Maitlands were not under suspicion for anything. There. There's Bruce, Brianna's dad. There is Kelly, Brianna's mom. And there is Wayland, Bree's brother. But there was never any suspicion of. Of anyone. But, you know, I think it was tough being in that town for the family afterwards. And I think that that's one reason Bruce and. And the family kind of moved away to some degree. I believe Bruce explained being in, like, a. Like a small grocery store and sort of hearing people, like, whisper about him like he's the father of the missing girl, and he just didn't like it, you know, and he's a very private guy.

[A]

Plus, there's always rumors. I guess that's what I was thinking about when I asked if they started investigating themselves, because particularly in smaller communities, everyone's got a theory about what's happened, and I think it'd be difficult not to try and chase down those rumors yourself if you feel like nothing is happening.

[C]

They were definitely investigating the case themselves. This is such a small area that word travels, and sometimes that word is good and strong, and you hear it from people who repeat the same thing and. And that can be promising. But there's also a lot of rumors that go nowhere and just get passed in. You know, I don't Know, I guess normal ways. I was gonna say weird ways, but it's really normal ways that rumors get

[A]

passed around small town, but horrible rumours too, let's not forget. I mean, you're hearing that I heard she was kept hostage for this period of time and this happened to her and that happened to her. And then she was cut into pieces. And, you know, horrible rumours are spreading around town. Right. As to what's actually happened to this young woman.

[C]

Absolutely. And Bruce even got tips at one point and I believe there was a point where he got a tip and called the police and told them that. That he was going to go if they don't go first.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Forcing them to go, essentially. And they did. The police did, because Bruce said, I'm going right now.

[A]

I would have done this.

[C]

So they did. They actually. So that was a moment early in the case where they. I believe the police did make an arrest, but it didn't lead to any movement in Brianna's case, as far as we know.

[A]

Ramon Ryan's and Nathaniel Jackson. Tell us about those guys.

[C]

Yeah, so they were both arrested on gun charges or. Or drug charges.

[A]

I think the family or somebody sent the police over there because these names just kept coming up, right?

[C]

Yeah. So, yes, those names had come up because they were kind of outsiders. They had come up to Vermont to sort of sell drugs and sort of entice some of the. The women residents to come with them back to New York and get into other shady, oh, you know, businesses. So Bruce got a tip about that house involving a root cellar, that Brianna was being held in that root cellar. And he called the police and told them, you better go there now or I'm going there. And they said, okay. And they went there and that's when they made those arrests. They did not find Brianna, but there was a root cellar, which is, you know, interesting to note.

[A]

Yeah. To put that rumor together and say, okay, well, we didn't find her, but whoever's talking about this does know a bit about the house. Cause there is that root cellar. So they found no Brianna, no sign of Brianna, but they did find firearms and they were able to charge them with. With some offences related to those. We know from watching, you know, true crime documentaries as well, that that's a way to get people in to, you know, interview them, see if you can get anything out of them for however long you're allowed to hold them, but nothing, nothing comes out of it. So are you sort of in a position where you are. You have a theory? Are you happy to. To Put forward a theory or, you know, where are you personally at with this investigation?

[B]

I mean, to come up with a theory? I mean, there's always 15 different theories that kind of go through your head when talking about any one of these disappearances. And you kind of change from day to day. Personally, I don't think she's alive. I think she was surprised that night by somebody probably in the car, and somehow that car, you know, was forced off the road or she tried to fight back in the car, spun out off the road. But where her body is now, I'm. I can't help but think that it's on a private property that just hasn't been searched yet.

[C]

There was DNA that was tested in March of 22. They found the people who the DNA belonged to, but it was. It was unrelated to the case.

[A]

Well, again, when you're 17, you've got lots of people in your car all the time. You're driving people around everywhere. So.

[C]

Right. But during this period of time, we did hear that they tested the DNA that they found against, I think they said, 11 persons of interest, which was pretty interesting to us to hear that they had that many people that they were considering for this. But, I mean, you asked about theories a moment ago. I mean, I think that tells me a lot like that, you know, if they. If they've investigated to the point where they're trying to match DNA to. To like they've got random people, sort of like this isn't from like the same friend group or something like that. You know, these are. These are random people. So I think that the police are investigating this like it's a random abduction

[A]

potentially, I guess, because I was going to say 11 people is discouraging to me. That makes me feel like they got no idea still, you know, testing 11 people for this DNA. But I guess you're right. It could be a random situation. You know, people with the Maura Murray disappearance cite Occam's razor. I find very frequently. Do you find that they just go, look, Occam's razor, which we love the theory that the most obvious scenario is probably the scenario that happened. So with Maura Murray, they say she probably just walked away from her car, it broke down and she walked off, and she died of exposure to the weather. To which, of course, we all ask, well, then why have her remains never been found? Like, she can't have walked that far. What do you think if you were to apply Occam's razor to this scenario? Is there feels like there are no Likely scenarios, you know, what do you think? Situations.

[C]

Yeah, I definitely think she was extracted from that car by someone meaning to do her harm. Whether that's. Someone like that was that she was, you know, friends with or something like that leading up to that. I. I have no idea. I really don't. But I do think that was a violent scene where the car was left. There was also, I want to say, a necklace kind of strewn about in the grass. So it seems to me like there was a struggle at that scene. So if I'm looking at Occam's Razor, that's. That's about as far as I can go.

[A]

We see a scene of violence. We see a scene of struggle.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. As far as suspects, it's very tough for me to apply Occam's Rage razor to any specific suspects, though.

[B]

Right. And so when you're trying to apply Occam's Razor to this, it really, like, gets under my skin when people say, well, Occam's Razor, she was drunk and spun off the road. Well, no, now you're adding those things. Like, the point of the razor part is to cut those things out. So the razor part is, how did the car get backed up into a building? Someone made the mistake and either put it in reverse, thinking they were in drive or completely overestimated or underestimated how far away the building was. Okay, so we're. That's a fact, right? It's in the back of the building. Why did that happen? Well, they were in a rush. Why were they in a rush? Okay, so now. Now we. Now we are exploring the actual, like, Occam's part of this. What would make somebody in such a rush that they would put the car in reverse or think it's. And think it's drive or hit the brake or hit the accelerator when they thought they were hitting the brake? We also know that the. I guess the driver's seat was further back than what Brianna would have been. Would have been for her height. So that's not. That's not adding things, though. That was something that was part of the scene.

[C]

Yeah, we really did get a lot of emails in. In the disappearance of Maura Murray's case about Occam's Razor. But it is funny, and I. And I think it is a very useful tool. But to Lance's point, like, we got messages about using it for every possible different outcome, every theory.

[B]

It was.

[C]

It kind of. Yeah, it gave us, like, an incredible, I don't know, experience on using Occam's. Razor.

[A]

I think that's maybe where I heard it the first time, was on a, you know, message board about your podcast. Yeah. Because people do love to apply it to that case in particular, and now to this one. Where do you think we are with this in terms of solvability? Is it. Is. Has it been too long? It's one of those cases where it's such a small community. It's so hard. It's like. It's almost like the Delphi case, where you're like, this is a really small community. How can. Can this be unsolvable? There's not that many people around.

[B]

I don't know. But I will add to your thought right there, which is something that, like, endlessly frustrates me and probably endlessly frustrates you. When you talk about crime and you talk about people who've gotten away with it, and when you look at the ring of different types of criminals in that area, they're just not smart. You know, it's really frustrating. Either they're not actual criminals and this is an accident, or they are criminals, like drug dealers and running guns and stuff, but they're just not smart. Like, they just aren't smart, and they just kind of happen to get away with this one.

[A]

I read once that it's impossible to plan a perfect murder, but occasionally you can accidentally do one.

[B]

More than occasionally. Yeah. Like, the more you plan, it seems the more you're going to get caught.

[A]

Yeah. Where's the family at with this? Where are Bruce, Kelly and Wayland? I guess what I'm asking is, is there a point at which do you think any of these people says, I need to get on with my own life, we may never solve this, or is there still a real determination and focus on this?

[C]

Well, I would say a little bit of both. Now, I can really only speak about Bruce because I haven't spoken with Kelly or Wayland, but we do speak with Bruce regularly, and he is certainly determined and, you know, will call people up in Vermont whenever he feels it necessary and, you know, sort of demand answers or. Or a call back or. Or some communication. So he is still very focused on solving Brianna's case. I do think there's hope. It's tough. It is a tough one. It may take finding her. And I don't, you know, we obviously don't know where that. Where that would be, where to start,

[A]

or, you know, finding her or that moment where someone comes forward because allegiances change, relationships change, all of those things that can make. Because you would have to imagine more than one person knows what happened to Brianna.

[B]

I mean. Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No, no, I think time is a great. A great element that should help the case. I would say it hasn't really yet. The witnesses that came forward last year, that was certainly interesting.

[A]

Tell us about the witnesses. Like, who were they? What did they have to say? And why do you think they did come forward years after the event, 2004, this event happened. So they came in, coming forward 20 years later.

[C]

Yeah, great question. So I believe it's. It was a couple and they were in the same car. And as far as why they didn't come forward earlier, I would say we. We don't have a good answer on that. But what I can say is that the. The private investigators, who we trust very much, said that they had very good reasons not to come forward and they. They were credible. So we. We have to take that for. For what it's worth. And, and because we're not going to be provided the answer anyway. These witnesses are anonymous. But what they reported was really interesting. It was. It was a bit of like a. Almost like a cat and mouse game real quick, where they drove past the Dutchburn house, which is the house where Brianna's car was. Was hung up on, but they drove past it and her car wasn't there. They made a phone call, I believe, either on their cell phone or on a payphone in the center of town there in Montgomery. Made their phone call, were sort of making plans for the evening, and then actually turned back and went the other way the way that they had already come. And then they actually saw Brianna's car in the position that we know it was in on the. Hung up on the Dutch burn. But there was also another car there.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

And so this couple, as they drove by, they said, well, well, that looks weird. Let's. Let's turn around to see if this is like, see if someone needs help. So apparently they turned around again and saw a hooded man, but they did not see anyone that fit Brianna's description. They saw a man in front of the car's headlights, and then they saw a car come towards them. And this car was about. It was a silver Honda sedan, but it nearly hit this. This couple in this car, seemingly to intimidate or something. They seem to swerve after going a high speed. And so this couple then took off. There was a. This is a little weird. We don't know what's going on here. They took off and then they turned around again and actually started following that car as it sped away. And when I say sped away, it sounds like it was actually a bit of a high speed chase because those roads, I don't know, like some of those turns, like you'd go, you do a flying right off the road if you're going like 70. So I think they probably a little under 70 is what they were going. But that's fast on those small rural roads.

[A]

Well, that's it. That's why I thought initially I could understand a policeman or someone seeing the car in situ and going, okay, someone spun off the road and can't get their car moving again and started walking until obviously they look in the car and see all the evidence that we've discussed. But this couple have reported action, essentially action around that, that scene, haven't they? They've reported another man is there on the scene, someone else is speeding around the scene, who obviously has never come forward. It's not like those two men have ever come forward and said, oh yeah, we saw that accident too, and there was no one in the car when we got there either. And so. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. And the description, like, you know, it's, it's late at night, 11:30ish. Right. At night, just, just after 11:30. And we were told that the description was stocky. So the, the man that that was seen was stocky. Okay, so that's 80% of the people up there.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then the other car, the, the Honda, silver or gray Honda sedan. So a Civic perhaps?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The most popular car in, in the country back then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're right on like the border of New York, Canada, not too far away from New Hampshire. So no license plate was ever really distinguished from that. So it could have been, it could have been someone in Canada, New York, New Hampshire. So it is like a great, a great thing that someone came forward and gave this account, but it really just leaves a pile of frustration because it's like, yeah, like the, the person is so generic. The car is so generic. Love the fact that someone came forward, but it's just, it's confirming that. Okay. It does seem more likely that foul play happened.

[A]

Absolutely. It is kind of confirming the obvious, isn't it?

[B]

And a little faster than I, than I anticipated. Like, it was kind of mind blowing when we first heard this because.

[A]

Oh, you mean the window of time that all of this has happened?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always, like in my head, it always played out a little bit slower. I don't know why. It was just the way it was playing out in my head. But this kind of made me realize that because they only saw the Oldsmobile and then the Honda sedan, that this stocky guy was probably in the car. And it happened pretty soon after she got in and left the parking lot of the Black Lantern where she was working. And then he grabs the wheel. She pulls the wheel. Whatever happens that puts them in that position. The other car is there almost in like two minutes. Because the timing from the witnesses to turn around and come back has a second car there already.

[A]

Yeah. Cause I must admit, my theory, my working theory was that abandoned house on the side of the highway looks like a great place to meet to me. Like a great place of I'll meet you behind the house. Oh, yeah. And we'll, you know, whatever, Buy, sell drugs, whatever. So, yeah, I sort of thought maybe an argument erupted there during that process, but even, even that seems too long winded for what we know now is the timeline.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And.

[C]

And there's only about a mile or so distance between the Black Lantern in and the Dutch Burn house. So if we're saying something happened from the time she left work to the time she got to the Dutch Burn, like, we're talking. Yeah, a very short window of like a few minutes.

[A]

Thanks for joining us on Australian True Crime. If you would like any more information about anything you've heard on the show today or support numbers, just check out the show notes.

[C]

The producers of this podcast recognised the

[B]

traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded.

[C]

They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders

[B]

past, present, and those emerging.