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- [00:04]
A
This is Australian True Crime with Michelle Laurie. And we have moved into a beautiful new studio. We're also now on the iHeart app, and as part of this upgrade, you can watch us on YouTube. In fact, next Monday, you can watch a new episode with the great man, former homicide detective Charlie Bazzina. And there's a bit of trivia attached to this. I met Charlie in this very studio many years ago when he agreed to be the very first guest on Australian True Crime. We thought it'd be nice to relive that episode in celebration of how far we've come. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung. People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [00:58]
B
You've got to let the crime scene tell you the story. I'd walk into a crime scene, you're in defence barrister mode. Okay, let's look at it. How can I connect the offender to this crime scene? And the first thing in answer to the question would lead you to some motive. Why would someone want to kill this particular person? And a lot of times you start with the body and you work your way out. Bigger circles say the family are all persons of interest. You eliminate the family, okay, their social circles, their work circles and the likes. And invariably, you might find more often than not is someone is connected that knows the offender, knows the deceased or deceased, knows the offender in some way. You know, in the relationships we build with deceased families that, you know, the journey starts. It's a probably two, three year journey. You stay with them, and by the time you, if you get a good, a quick solve, by the time it goes to trial, the wheels of justice move quite slowly, unfortunately.
- [01:53]
A
And so you're just keeping them updated as to, I guess, the likelihood of getting a conviction. Is that what you're doing?
- [02:00]
B
Well, you know, you prepare them because the justice system is so finical. You say to them, well, look, you know, we've got 12 strangers in that jury box to convince that this person murdered your daughter beyond reasonable doubt.
- [02:15]
A
And you're right, most of us have no idea how that process works. So you're gonna be there to guide me through it.
- [02:20]
B
That's right. And they cling to you because you used to imagine, first thing, people don't have much to do. Police often, apart from being a traffic fine or whatever the case may be. But to get a homicide detective knocking on your door and saying, you know, what it was bad news for you. And sitting down with deceased families, the amount of times I've sat down with families in their lounge rooms and you say to them, look, you know, I'll be honest with you as much as I can. I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not going to soften it because if you don't be honest with them from the get go, they're going to find out at the trial and your whole credibility is down the chute. So after processing the crime scene, you spend hours and hours and then your next step is going to going to the family's home and saying, and trying to tell them, well, look, if it's an unsolved, we're going to do everything we can to solve it. And unlike the movies, whereas, you know, the movies, you see them dealing with one case, one particular year, I had 14 homicides that I was dealing with in one year. And that's not counting the trials that were happening and this type of stuff. So ultimately we had a good clearance rate. We had over, you know, probably the low 90% clearance of SOLVE in my time and then going to courts and that type of thing. And ultimately, you know, even when we get acquittals, the family know, because the relationship you have with them, they know you've done 110%. And after that, if it's an acquittal, you go and have a beer with them after the court and they sit down with you and you know, and it's, you know, you've done a great job, you can't dwell on it. People say, doesn't these acquittals affect you? Or it does, it does, it does. But you know full well you've done 120% and you've delivered to the family and the family know that. But that's a system we live under and that's what we work with. And now the community are better educated and you always work on the premise that you're going to get a no comment interview. So you've got to get your evidence. So Unlike in the 70s, when I joined, you relied on the confession prior to me leaving. It was basically us building a case around the offender. It was that nexus we had to put the offender in that crime scene. How do we do that? Fingerprints, DNA, witnesses.
- [04:23]
A
So what changed? What's changed about Australian people that in the 70s a criminal might confess, could be relied upon to a certain degree to confess and now you can't rely on that?
- [04:34]
B
Well, they're better educated, they know their rights Even more, you know, because there's a lot of bluff in our day where, you know, policemen would stop you in the street two or three in the morning and, you know, what's your name and address? Oh, well, it's so and so, so and so, so and so. Now the kids will say, the kids will say today under 18, they'll say, well, I don't have to give you my name and address. I don't have to say anything. Am I under arrest? No, I'm not. Well, I'll keep on walking. And that's the attitude they have. So they'll challenge authority all the time. And basically, you know, I do a lot of talks at schools and corporate functions and you say to them, to the kids, for example, said, there's always gonna be rules at home, there's rules at school, there's rules in society and you've gotta abide by them. But they're taking on all the time, they're challenging you all the time. And we've gone a transition in a period with policing, for example, in the 70s, you know, police were feared in those days.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, and with good reason too. There was some police violence, wasn't there? Absolutely.
- [05:25]
B
Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [05:27]
A
And untouchability about police.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah. Fabrication of evidence and the likes and assaults. Well, anyone who's going to take that, that, that attitude of late, well, you're going to do your career, you're going to look at jail. So it's all done by the book. And that was, that's the thing with us as investigators, senior investigators, it's done by the book. And people say, well, for example, you know, cases where it's obvious that a loved one has been the perpetrator and the community look at us and say, what are you idiots waiting for? You know, it's the husband who's did it. And you're gonna say, well, hang on a minute. What we allege, you've gotta prove, but once you charge someone and they get acquitted, well, there's never going, no going back in those days. So you have to be pretty sure about your facts. And you know, and I say to a lot of people, there's no time limit on murder, whether we solve it today. And they've had some good solves on cold cases, for example, that, you know, the evolution of the DNA process getting better and better and what they can extract. So, you know, nothing gave us greater pleasure to knock on someone's door at 2 or 3 in the morning and say, we've just locked up someone for your son's murder, for example. And that gave us that thrill for us. You know, we've done a good job then. That's the first step. The next step is to get a conviction, to give them answers. And end of the day, you know, there's a lot more innocent guilty people walking the streets than there are innocent people in jail. That's how high the bar is that we had to get to.
- [06:47]
A
Yeah. Cause you're right, we do live on. We're so overconfident with our own abilities these days, I think. I mean the Internet's full of crime solvers, amateur crime solvers and stuff. And I, I, when you were talking I thought, jeez, there's a lot of us who would have had Jill Marr's beautiful husband locked up exactly the day that we realised that she had been murdered, only to find out that there was this other perpetrator who'd been stalking the streets on and off for years.
- [07:11]
B
And that's why the courts take a very, very dim view of people taking the law in their own hands. Yeah. And ultimately it is because it's what might appear the obvious. You then say, well goodness me, it's, it wasn't him at all. Geez, where'd that come from? Had no idea. Would have as he's, you know, we've had this bloke be on the firing squad basically. And so it is, it is a long term stuff. There's been cases that I've had, you know, you're chasing particular offender and this guy, this guy fits the bill 100% and then you find out it wasn't him at all. But you've just got to go slowly because once we place a hand on someone's shoulder and say you're under arrest for murder, that's a massive call for us because ultimately it is us personally that are responsible for taking someone's liberty away from them.
- [07:54]
A
Yes.
- [07:55]
B
And I always say the two most significant things in a person that a person has is their life and their liberty. You know, we investigate one and we take the other one away. So that's pretty significant. And if we don't do it properly, the department steps back and say, you know what, you're on your own.
- [08:09]
A
Yes.
- [08:09]
B
You know, you get charged for false imprisonment in the civil suit and then I'll charge the Victoria police in the state government.
- [08:15]
A
So, so there's still this remaining idea that cops look out for each other and all that. But you're saying, you know, woe betide you if you do imprison someone who shouldn't be imprisoned.
- [08:25]
B
That's right, that's right. And the bar, I can't see it happening because the bar is so high and being able to prove it, you know, the corruption days are well and truly gone. I'm going back in the 70s and the 60s, you know, they had the beach Royal Commission and that type of thing and that really put the constraints on police about what they can and can't do about being double checked and triple checked and the likes. So, you know, even the time that I spend in internal investigations, people, you know, sort of say, well, you know, you are an internal investigator of corrupt police. But you know what, given the fact there was over 10,000, 15,000 police, the corruption issue is minute. But you're going to get that in any organisation. So the fact that you did it in police, you know, no one wants to be working next to a thief or someone who bashes someone. They're going to be given up quick as a flash. So, you know, it is a very, very fine balance of what you're prepared to do just to get the result. And if it doesn't happen, you just move on to the next case and say, well, I just haven't got the evidence. You know, there's a couple of unsolved cases there and I'm 100% know who the offender is, but I just haven't got the evidence, I just can't get part of that bar. And, you know, I had a love triangle where the. Where the wife wanted to divorce the husband, I found her lover was. I could prove the affair, I could do all that, I could prove the motive and I just fell short. And, you know, that's one that sort of sticks in your mind. Quite basic, one of a love triangle and frustrating. It is. It is.
- [09:50]
A
What about if you think that that perpetrator, you can't prove their guilt, but you believe they could reoffend specifically. And I know you can't comment on this because this is a Western Australian case. The Claremont murders.
- [10:01]
B
Oh, yeah, no, Claremont. Right.
- [10:03]
A
So three. Three girls murdered. At least three from the same place. The rumor I've heard for years and years is that the police know who the perpetrator is and have him under heavy surveillance and he knows it and that's why he's never reoffended. Do things like that happen? I mean, do you. Do the police keep an eye on someone they know is a problem in the community, but they can't put him away?
- [10:23]
B
Look, realistically, they just don't have the resources. No, they Don't. And whilst, you know, as long as they can put a tag on his ankle or anything in that regard, to be able to put someone under 24 hour, 247 surveillance, it doesn't happen. And that's the realistic terms. As much as you love to tell the community and say, you know, we do have the resources to do that, it doesn't happen. So ultimately, you know, you're innocent or proven guilty. And all investigators are the collectors of facts. It is up to court to decide innocence or guilt. So we present the facts. So we just fall short of being able to prove an offence. When we move on to the next case and say, well, okay, we're mindful of that person. If we get a similar type murder or a similar armed robbery or similar rape or a similar child abduction, you say, right, let's have a look at this guy. Same as an arsonist.
- [11:09]
A
Yeah, right.
- [11:10]
B
You know, I know there's in the summer period, the arson explosive squad keep, they've identified their arson suspects and they keep them under surveillance for that particular period because they know they're going to offend because that's a different push in relation to them offending. Why does an arsonist set fire? There's different reasons for that.
- [11:30]
A
So these are people who could potentially start bushfires.
- [11:32]
B
Absolutely right. Yeah. And you know, and how significant it is, you look at Black Saturday, so it's using those tactics and being able to say, you know, what this is happening or is this guy, how many is this guy? How many murders this guy for? You look at Dupas, for example.
- [11:47]
A
Yeah.
- [11:47]
B
You know, he's currently doing full life imprisonment for three murders. Yeah, but he's, you know, he's a suspect a number of other murders, but just can't prove it. And yeah, on it goes.
- [11:57]
A
Well, I actually met Nicole Patterson two weeks before he murdered her. I was working at a brothel in Caulfield South. I was a receptionist. And the lady who owned this brothel was a beautiful lady and she used to have staff meetings, believe it or not, for the girls and she oftentimes would invite speakers and she invited Nicole to come and talk about self care and self esteem and stuff like that. Nicole gave everyone their cards and her cards and then they were trying to phone her and couldn't get a hold of her.
- [12:26]
B
She'd been murdered.
- [12:26]
A
So I mean it even in my little tiny world, that a serial killer, you know, affected, killed someone I had met. That's a strange feeling.
- [12:35]
B
Well, that's right.
- [12:37]
A
What is the feeling when you're sitting, sitting with someone in the tiny room and you're asking them about their crimes.
- [12:43]
B
Yeah, well, that's the whole thing because, you know, you've got to keep your composure. You've got to do everything by the book, as if you don't. I never want to be the person responsible, to say to the family, geez, why was he acquitted, Charlie? Well, look, he was acquitted because I sort of bent the rules a bit. I don't want to be responsible for that. So all he can do is because the experience tells you you've got to go there and do it. You know, when we did Paul Charles Denier down at Frankston, he murdered those three women down there and to sit in that room and, you know, this guy is not normal. And like a normal person, are we telling us he had the urge to kill since he was 15 or 16 and that type of thing, and then he tend to abduct these three beautiful ladies and, and do it just randomly off the street and then sit there with, with, with him in that room and. But basically, you need that admission he made then full admissions of saying he killed the three of them. You know, the hardest thing, not that I've interviewed many pedophiles. Same thing. You sit there with a pedophile. There's a certain way you need to interview a pedophile. You've really got to be very sympathetic in this type of thing because your end goal is, you know, you're going to get that admission and get the evidence and then you can say, you know what, in years to come, you know, I'm going to get to court and you're going to get imprisonment. That's going to be my reward, all this. You bottle it in and you don't show your emotions. You go out of the room, punch the wall, get that frustration there, but you come back cool, calm and collected because, you know, the end of the day, I want to prove it against this guy. I want to charge him with his particular offences and the reward will come when he's convicted and sentenced to a life period of imprisonment.
- [14:16]
A
Do you learn that or is that you naturally, when you talk about sitting in a room with a pedophile? I sort of get a physical reaction in my throat and I feel like I can. I picture myself wanting to just smash his head against the wall a thousand times. Like, do you learn how to keep your cool in that situation, or is that you naturally.
- [14:36]
B
I think it becomes natural because you can see investigators and what type they are and where they can control their emotions and know the end result, so basically it comes from experience, is having a senior person there to be able to guide them, because you've probably worked on a case for months and months and months, and then ultimately, you know, you've got the quarry at the end of it all. And that's the great realisation. Then your next step is, how are we going to prove it? You know, do we arrest him? Now, if you look at a whole series of tactics, you're looking at listening devices, telephone intercepts, all this type of thing, to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
- [15:09]
A
And you can't jeopardise all of that.
- [15:10]
B
You can't, you can't. And there is no time limit, so you do as best you can and present the best case. But unfortunately, the next slap in the face is you present such a good case and such a strong case that the solicitor or barrister looks at him and says, you know what, Harry? This is a near tight case. Plead guilty. And because the case is so strong, they plead guilty, they must get a discount in their sentencing at court. So you're going to say, well, that's rubbish. You're going to say, well, no, because the police have done such a great job, why should you get a discount? You're pleading guilty to it. But then the justice system looks at it and say, well, you've saved the government all this money for not going to trial. You've saved the witnesses giving evidence. Well, a whole lot of rubbish. A lot of witnesses and family and victims want to give evidence. They want people to know what this Mongrela did to their family or their loved one. But they never get that opportunity. And there's other deniers walking around the streets. That's the other fearful thing. And I was saying to people, you know, you've got to be very mindful of your surroundings. You've got to look, we've got to look after each other, look after our safety. The world has changed dramatically. You know, we're looking at these carjackings at the moment and this type of thing, it's. You look at this. Years ago, we were nowhere near that. You know, we probably sleep with their doors and windows open.
- [16:23]
A
Yeah.
- [16:23]
B
But the whole thing is we've got this. This element in their community that they don't care about authority. You know, I spoke to someone this morning about that. They do it in broad daylight and they'll do it and they'll even go back to the same scene and do it because they know that the police aren't going to be there. They know about the Pursuit policy. They know about these things. They're happy to take the authority on, front on and say, well, come on, if you're good enough. And then if they've been through the court system, they'll say, well, you know, people as frustrated as anybody else will say, well, you know, we had a drug, drug problem, was on ice. And the sympathy of the court then goes down the track. Well, you know, at the end of the day, no one helps a poor or victim. You know, you know, how many witnesses have I had in families have said, charlie, well, look, do I have to give evidence in court? Well, I'm afraid you do. You know, the accuser's got to face the accused, so ultimately you've got to stand. Well, he's gonna know where I live. Will you have a police patrol car out the front? No, we can't. So the fearful thing of being able to protect the community and even the systems of, you know, witnesses coming along to give evidence, you know, they're treated poorly in relation to. They sit in the cold corridor of the Supreme Court. You know, there's no, there's a bit of support for them, but, you know, they've just gotta be there to give evidence because we're only as good as our witnesses and only good as our evidence of what we've got against these people. And we can't do it on our own. And we've got the amount of public pleas that I've done over the years, we need the public to help us. Crime Stoppers was put in for that reason. We've got to get the good people to stand up against these bad people. But unless he affects you directly, people are a bit complacent about it and say, you know what, I don't want to get involved. And I used to say to people, look, you don't have to make a statement, but if I don't have you, if that was your daughter or your son that was actually assaulted, you know, and we had no other evidence except for someone like you, what would you do? We need someone to stand up and be able to say, you know what, I'm sick and tired of this, we've got to stand up against these bad guys. Well, what I say, it's my personal opinion is, you know, he's a plumber, he's a carpenter, he's a technician of some sort, and he's a criminal. You got career criminals, and you can't rehabilitate career criminals.
- [18:42]
A
If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened. Your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800respect.org au or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14. As an animal lover, I'm stoked that you're working for Greyhound Victoria. When I read that, I couldn't believe it. I thought, now that's taking it seriously. You've hired a former homicide copper to come and help you clean up.
- [19:28]
B
Yep.
- [19:29]
A
The animal cruelty cases, that's serious.
- [19:31]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. We're not mugging around. And see, we've got Des Gleason on our books.
- [19:35]
A
Yeah.
- [19:35]
B
The big. He's a ex chief steward from the thoroughbreds. And, you know, I've built up the unit from there. Was, there was one investigator there and now we've got five investigators, got two senior intelligence analysts, we've got two solicitors and we're going full blazing ahead and delivering that message to say, well, you know, we're going to take you on and. Because the majority of the greyhound participants out there are really good people and that's who you're fighting for. Sure, we've got a credibility issue from our past, but all I say to people is, give us a chance, let us prove ourselves and I'll deliver.
- [20:11]
A
Oh, I think you're. I think your joining is a massive step in the right direction and from a public perspective as well. Certainly when you walked into the radio station with your folder and you still look every bit the homicide detective to me, you've got a real power, a very powerful Persona about you. So if you showed up at my dog, you know, breeding facility, I would take it very seriously. In your book, you also wrote about an RSPCA inspector.
- [20:37]
B
Yeah, I did that.
- [20:37]
A
Who was murdered. He went checking on a case of animal cruelty with a guy who had horses. So, I mean, there's just an example of how there's a lot of money tied up in these industries and a lot of people take this stuff really seriously.
- [20:52]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. With the. And you know, as much as what we do. But, you know, if we're going to take, and I'll be looking at taking, taking away their livelihood and they're the ones that, you know, the main issue for us is the moment a lot of them are pumping drugs into dogs. We've got arsenic, we've got cobalt, we've got, we've got amphetamines, methamphetamines, all these other bodybuilding stuff that they pump into dogs and they're the ones and the ones that actually use prohibited drugs. Then I'm going to get to a stage where I'll be just saying, okay, you've done your license, my friend, you no longer be a greyhound race owner because you've breached it five, four or five times. I'm not going to let it go that far. They never had that big stick. And then, and then the good people say, you know what, that's fantastic to see.
- [21:33]
A
Yeah, definitely.
- [21:34]
B
And that's our issue. You know, we're getting a lot more positives but of, of drug positives and we should be high, high swabbing on low positives. But these people, and it's a full onus on them to say, well, had that drug, you know, it's amazing what they come up with. I had that, you know, cocaine or the, that particular derivative in your dog. Oh, it ain't poppy seeds off a bun. Oh, yeah. How'd the arsenic get into your, into your dog? Oh, it was licking a. The treated pine posts on the thing. And these excuses come up all the time. You say, you know what, here you go. You serve a paper on them and say, tell it to the board and, and just get them out of the industry. We don't want them to.
- [22:10]
A
Me and I, I might be drawing a very long bow here, but it seems like there might be similarities between that and, say, the under underworld war in Melbourne in that people would be very afraid to speak out against others, wouldn't they?
- [22:23]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I don't, I don't hold that against. But the whole thing is, it's a personal choice of where you want to be. What do you want to do? Do you want to be part of the solution? You can sit back and be critical and say, you know, why haven't the police solved this? And that's still unsolved. We live in fear. But, you know, there's more good people out there than bad people. And strength in numbers. Like the 30,000 at Mark for Jill Maher. What a great effort that was. You know, we need those 30,000 to go to Andrews and say, well, look, mate, this is just not on. What are you going to do to make our streets a lot safer and this type of thing? Because they're looking at votes, they are.
- [22:56]
A
But I mean, when Jason Moran gets shot and murdered at an Oz kick Saturday morning, I mean, it's hard to Consider that you would ever stand up and say, I saw something.
- [23:07]
B
I agree. Yeah, I had one, same with Alphonse Gangitano when I did that investigation of his murder and I had a witness in the street who didn't know who they were actually. He identifies Jason Moran, is walking down the street and he was the one who was, as far as I was concerned, never convicted him, but he was the offender. And when he found out, he was a 21 year old kid basically, and he found out it's the underworld that he was dealing with and I had to support him all the way. And I tried to work out things and say to certain magistrates, look, does he have to be in the witness box? Can I have him behind a curtain? Can I protect his identity? But the system says no, you've got to, you know, the accuser got to face his accuser. So, you know, there is a fear factor there.
- [23:46]
A
And, and did he, did that guy?
- [23:47]
B
Yeah, he gave evidence, but he gave evidence at the, at the, at the inquest because I fell short of being able to charge Jason Moran for that murder because had a, had a witness. And these are again, when I do the talks of frustration cases you had, you know, I, I, I knew where Jason had thrown the gun in the arrow over the Westgate Bridge. We put divers in the eye. The person actually drove, the person actually drove Jason to Alphonse's house. He gave me a statement to say, yep, I drove Jason there and that was Alphonse's house and just about to charge him and then he committed suicide and all this. And it's just amazing, all of a sudden, one frustration after the other.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah.
- [24:27]
B
And at the end of the day, you know, he met his maker in the underworld murders and you move on to the next one. It's the same as the RSPCA one. Like, you know, that guy was acquitted, Lenny Squire and Stuart Fairley was the deceased. And no, there's no issues. He was the offender. Yeah. 100 circumstantial case. The jury came back with second jury. First time was a hung jury, second jury was an acquittal. And when I did David Hook's same thing, you know, you say yourself, goodness me, I, I couldn't have got the evidence any better. But what happens in that jury room, who knows? Between 12 strangers got to come up with one decision, it's got to be unanimous. And that's the hardest thing. And you know, people say, well, should we have the death penalty back? And if we ever had the death penalty, we'd never Get a conviction. It is a complex whole system of justice, very, very complex. And it's a multi, multi billion dollar industry because imagine, let's take crime away from our society, how much people will be out of work. So not a lot of think that way, but it's just massive. It's massive.
- [25:29]
A
Do you ever solve crimes as an amateur? Do you ever watch those documentaries? Making a murder is huge around the world these days and jump online and you know, put the puzzle together.
- [25:40]
B
Oh yeah, I don't mind. There's certain ones I don't, I don't mind watching. Said, well, since I left, I became a private investigator. Oh. And I started doing a bit of private investigation work before I got hit, entered for grey hand racing and. Yeah, and the same deal because, you know, when I, when I made the decision to leave, what can I do? I've been at Copper since I was 17 and copper sell themselves short.
- [26:00]
A
Yeah.
- [26:00]
B
Because we are great people. Person. Great people. People, exactly. To deal with them because we deal with so many different range of them and suddenly you say, you know what, you know, I can deal with things, I can make decisions, you know, we've all got, you know, you got their presence about you, you know, and bam. Often they'll say, jeez, he looks like a copper. It's how they stand. And you never lose it. It's hyper vigilance, you know, 38 years of, of hyper vigilant dealing with a. And you never lose that as competitive. No. I walk into a restaurant, I walk somewhere, my eyes are going left, right and center. You walk into a restaurant, it feels.
- [26:31]
A
Like it's very intellectual, it's not emotional.
- [26:33]
B
That's right. And it's automatic. You know, my wife will say, I'll say to her, look, look at that chap over there, just be mindful of him. She'll go, where? What? Where? She said, you're amazing. But that's what you're trying to do. But you don't do it thinking, you know, you walk into a restaurant, you scan it and where are you going to sit? You sit in a place, you know, when the amount of different murders that I've investigated, you know, people say, guys just sitting in an open air, in a public area, sitting on a train and they're stabbed to death. Middle of the afternoon, you know, and that's why I say to people, for goodness sake, tell your children yourselves, you be mindful of your surroundings and you're going to know, you don't have to be a copper. The sixth sense going to Tell you more. And so women, you know, they're going to say, you know what? Something's not right about that person. And all you got to do is ring Triple A and just say, mate, I'm just letting you know there's a guy hanging out my street, he's up to no good. Well, what do you say that? And they'll pick your brain to say, well, I'm just telling you I know this person's up to no good. His way he's looking, his body language. Let the police be the judges.
- [27:32]
A
You're making me think about the. That guy, Paul Onions, that British man who phoned from England to say, well, I was backpacking around Sydney and a weird guy picked me up and kind of. And that cracked open the Ivan Malat case.
- [27:44]
B
That's right. Absolutely. And these ones that survived got away from everybody said, oh, well, years later.
- [27:49]
A
He rang about that.
- [27:50]
B
Exactly. And it's. But it's something that stays with you. It so would have been so frightening. And that's all it takes. And I think there's been a couple of other issues, cases of that and everything fell into place. And same as, you know, the major campaign we had with Mr. Cruel, for example, you know, with.
- [28:05]
A
Well, that was in the news again recently because there's. Is it a million dollar?
- [28:08]
B
Million dollar. Yep.
- [28:09]
A
Offered for that. Now, Carmen Chan was a little girl who was abducted from her home and her body was found a year ago. Yeah.
- [28:18]
B
And people say, well, you know, there's a sex offender. Why would he kill, you know, Carmen Chan and not the other girl? Exactly. And ultimately she must have seen his face of some sort. She had some incriminating evidence against him because he was so careful what he did with the girls and what before he released them. And, you know, as a paedophile, he's not just going to stop.
- [28:39]
A
That's what I'm wondering. Because in my fantasy world, I thought maybe he's one of those guys the police are watching, watching all the time, and so he doesn't have a chance to offend. Why do you think he stopped?
- [28:48]
B
Well, is either the number of reasons that I put. He's either in jail, some other offenses, he's deceased, or he's overseas.
- [28:56]
A
Okay.
- [28:56]
B
But not just going to stop.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah.
- [28:58]
B
You know, the plan that he put into. Break into. Into places, you know, is methodical. And then what he did to the girls prior to making release, you know, took their clothes off them and put them in a plastic bag and that type of thing.
- [29:11]
A
Yes.
- [29:12]
B
And I'm very, very Methodical and because they're driven in that way, they just won't say, right, that's it. I'm better now. I'm not going to do it anymore. Yes, Unlikely.
- [29:32]
A
Swing into Fred's appliance and shop the.
- [29:34]
B
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A
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- [29:57]
A
Inventory in the region.
- [29:59]
B
We sell appliances, only appliances.
- [30:02]
A
In our imaginations, murderers are people like, you know, Jason Moran. Thugs, Terrifying, violent. Yeah, right. Violent, scary people. But lots of other people become murderers.
- [30:15]
B
Yeah, well, people have asked me that before and ultimately we've all got the urge that we could kill. Every person has got the ability to kill someone. But, but the reasoning in your mind, you know, it's a lot of times it's, it's that, it's that probably they click in your mind. You might find yourself in a circumstance situation where you react without thinking. You might grab a knife or that something is handy. All of a sudden you sip and you'd be the most law abiding citizen in the world. But they just ticked your buttons and you clicked off instead of being able to walk away. So it's what's, what happens in our own minds. You know, you could have been under, under a lot of pressure. You've got work issues, you've got major issues at home. All of a sudden this happens or that happens and you just might snap, who knows? Or someone just disliked at work or. And then that's where you start saying, well, you know, when I worked on, other times, when I worked on Sarah McDermott for example, the woman was abducted from, from Kenwick railway station. Yeah. All those years ago. So you're saying this unsolved.
- [31:10]
A
That is an unbelievable case. That's the kind of case that has all of our parents saying, I see.
- [31:14]
B
I told you, right?
- [31:17]
A
Walking in a dark car park in the middle of the night to your car.
- [31:21]
B
Yeah.
- [31:21]
A
Never seen or heard of again. And still, I mean, you found the perpetrator.
- [31:25]
B
Right.
- [31:25]
A
But never her remainder.
- [31:26]
B
No, no, never changed. Unsolved.
- [31:28]
A
It's still unsolved. Did it though, really?
- [31:31]
B
No, no idea. Just one of those weird ones. And you know, I made a passionate plea in the media. I said look I don't care if I get an anonymous phone call, just tell me where the body is.
- [31:41]
A
Yes, right.
- [31:42]
B
For the family.
- [31:42]
A
Yeah.
- [31:44]
B
Every year the family go to the car park and there's a little plaque.
- [31:47]
A
There because where else?
- [31:48]
B
They got nothing else.
- [31:49]
A
Where else?
- [31:49]
B
And that's what really hurts. Yeah, it really hurts, you know, to say, look, you know, we've had some recent discoveries in mine shafts with bodies and the likes, and it's fantastic. And recently finding the offender is secondary to finding remains. That's number one, is finding the remains of the loved one. So they've got someone to go somewhere to go and lay them at rest. It's, it's, it's in. The offender comes next. Let's, if, if you haven't got a body, I'm driven to find the body first and then let's charge someone down the track. So. But there was a very. Incidents on that about why would someone take the body away after she was assaulted in the car park. And then all these tactics, cards start playing in your mind. You'd go home, you wouldn't be sleeping a lot because you'd be working. What's the next tactics? What haven't I done? What should I be doing? What's my next step? Where should I be going from this point of view? You know what, let's try this tactic. Let's try that tactic. And when it comes flourishing and you've got a guy that drives you, like.
- [32:45]
A
In real terms, I mean, it's a year after, it's two years after, do the family phone you intermittently to say, has anything popped up here?
- [32:55]
B
Yeah, some do, but, but you tell them and they know, they've got that confidence in you to say, look, if anything happens you're not going to read about in the newspaper, Mary, I'll be ringing you. I don't care what time of morning it is, I'll be ringing you because that's looking for that. You know, they'll be jumping at every phone call, that little grasp, that little thread that they can grab. And, and they know, well, Chief, Charlie hasn't ringed, they've got nothing. Why should I be ringing them every five minutes? But you know, because you get that many homicide investigations to do, you do lose touch over a period of time. It's not from neglect or anything. It's just a matter of you're so focused with your next job and that's what drives you. When you get an acquittal, for example, you really can't mull and let it affect you because ultimately you move on to the next case and you get distracted by the next case. But you never forget the old ones and the cases you've done in the past and you've gone to different functions and people say, well, you investigated my daughter's murder and so. And you can't remember them and that type of stuff. That's the impact because that's. I'm doing homicides mostly every day of the week and this is the most major thing that's happened in their life ever.
- [33:57]
A
Of course, of course.
- [33:58]
B
And that's why they recall it. And, and I used to apologize to them before, even when I was sitting in the lounge room with them after all the hours and say, look, if you do ring me, please forgive me if I don't recall who you are because of the volume of people you're dealing with because people are percepted by what's on tv. You're dealing with one case. And I say to them, because I don't know. And you're dealing that also on the balance of the offender's family. You know, we support defenders family also, not just deceased families. Because imagine me coming to your house and saying, Michelle, we've just charged your sibling or your sister or whatever for a mood. All of a sudden, bang, you're smashed out of the world and you say, what the hell?
- [34:36]
A
Yeah.
- [34:36]
B
So we're not going to walk away from you and say, well mate, we don't walk away from you. Not at all. Wow. If offenders family say, you know what, Charlie, go take a flying hike. I don't want to see the, the baker. I'll see you in court. I don't want. No worries. Yeah, but we'll support offenders families as much as we support deceased families because, you know, they've got someone who's been charged with murder, they're in jail because once we charge them with murder, it's only the Supreme Court can give them bail. So ultimately it's the biggest thing in their life. So you're balancing these two families.
- [35:04]
A
It seems like increasingly it. It's the same family that the perpetrator and the victim belong to as well. Are there more domestic violence related murders now or are we just really conscious of it now?
- [35:16]
B
Are you conscious of it now? When I, you know, in the 70s, before I got to the homicide squad, you know, and this is not belittling it at all, but, you know, we were within police jargon and, you know, police got a bit of black humour. We used to be called the heavy domestic squad because Most of your murders were in the domestic. Mum killed dad, dad killed Mum. Whatever the case may be, it wasn't until we got that criminal element involved with the underworld and that type of thing, we, you know, we wouldn't have heard of underworld murders all those years ago now where we are. So you're still going to get that peppering of some family member in the murder involved. So that's why you look at the most obvious first and eliminate them. You know, I'm looking at the society.
- [35:57]
A
Murders, as they were called, that you.
- [35:59]
B
Yeah.
- [35:59]
A
You worked on.
- [36:00]
B
That was the Matthew the son.
- [36:02]
A
Yeah, the Wales King murders where the parents were wrapped in Glad Wrap in the garage or something?
- [36:08]
B
No, no, they were on the front. Front front yard covered with a. A swimming pool tarpaulin.
- [36:14]
A
Did you find them?
- [36:15]
B
No, I didn't find them because he had already. I. Well, we found them because we. They were buried at Marysville. Yes, up near Marysville. So I happened to be the person on call, my team were on call and they said some rangers had found what they thought was a live bird mound. So I went up there with the forensic people and as soon as we excavated a bit of the grave and then as soon as we found a second body, we said, right, Miles King for sure. So we left everything in situ. Away we went and we assisted the Missing Persons unit. And, you know, still remember when they arrested, you know, Matthew, he just said, I didn't do it for the money. I just hated her, hated his mum and I. Little things about, you know, in the. In the grave that she was. The mum was on the bottom and in the stepfather he liked, but he was just collateral damage.
- [37:09]
A
God. So that's literally breathtaking to me that he said that.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, that's just the way people are dealing with, you know, and you meet them all. Yeah, you do. And you know, you never get surprised with the people you deal with.
- [37:22]
A
In 1998, Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were murdered. They were police here in Melbourne.
- [37:27]
B
Well, I was in the office at the time when it happened, about midnight. And then that's when my inspector came and said, look, Charlie, there's two police being shot dead up at Moorabbin, or two have been shot at least. And I went straight to the scene. And whilst the suspects were the people responsible for all the armed robberies, that's who they were targeting. That was a primary focus in there. But they had no idea. But the painstaking investigation with that of, of getting all their Hyundais checked, you know, they had a team of Detect 2 detectives go to Korea and go through all the, all the Hyundai because the glass had been shot out and they belonged to a particular Hyundai and they knew that. So wow. You know, and that's where they, that's the nth degree you taught. Not because they're police, they would do it for anybody in relation to a double murder like that. It's the same, same standard that they went to that nth degree. When you've got nothing else, you just got to go down the next path. And where can we go from here? Where can we go from here? And painstaking stuff.
- [38:21]
A
You and your homicide mates, the, the blokes who were working with you, the other senior detectives, and you all left at once. If you, if I were to take you all out for dinner and sit very quietly in a corner and listen to you talk, would I be hearing incredible stories of crime solving? Oh yeah, okay.
- [38:43]
B
And you know, I had to tame the book down a bit, of course.
- [38:46]
A
But, but you'd be going, remember that coppers get together.
- [38:50]
B
I'll tell you what, coppers get, get together and we tell worries all the time. You sit there and you, you know, at dinner date, you sit there with time worries and, and between the five of us, of all the different ones we've had, you know, we, we farewelled a colleague of mine last week, Jeff Mar. And you know, and the stories, he, you know, that was just said at his send off because he did Black Saturday and he did the Salt nightclub where we had a people. Yeah, of course, you know the member, that one into the Yarra river with a samurai sword. Oh my God. And he's the one that charged due pass. And you know the other stories of missing kids. We've got the Moe toddler, Jade and Lesky and all that type of stuff.
- [39:25]
A
And all of a sudden Pig's head gang.
- [39:27]
B
Yeah, that's right. Oh my God. And all these things sort of come up and, and then you can sit there and just like you sit there, you know, be. You'd be looking around because name the.
- [39:37]
A
Restaurant, name the day. I will pay for everything. But I wouldn't care, would you? You ever let a civilian, a rando, sit in a corner?
- [39:45]
B
Yeah. Probably be uncomfortable because you might, you don't know where it's going. Especially someone like you in the media. That's the problem.
- [39:51]
A
It's just for my sick female crime obsessed mind.
- [39:56]
B
Oh, that was good, mate. It was good. You have to wait for the next book.
- [39:58]
A
Oh Jesus, please. When is the next book?
- [40:02]
B
I don't know.
- [40:02]
A
What about the other boys. Did any of the others go, oh, this is Charlie. I should write a book.
- [40:06]
B
I think there's a couple of. Got their. A book in their. In their minds. Haven't they seen one yet? But I think there's a couple that have been toying with it. And. And the beauty is, because you're a local product, you can relate to the cases.
- [40:16]
A
Oh, God.
- [40:17]
B
It's unlike reading a American one. It's like, because I do a bit of corporate speaking, I'm doing one again tonight and you know, and I just want to hear about the story. Oh, yeah, Alphonse. That's right. Remember that. And just like you we have today. Yeah, I remember that. I remember Due Pass. Oh, yeah. And Jill Ma. Oh, you remember that?
- [40:35]
A
Yeah.
- [40:35]
B
And you can relate to it because you lived it, you know, and then you say it's not sort of like talking about Dillinger or Capone or something.
- [40:41]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [40:41]
B
Not ownership, but that relationship that you have. And say, you know what? It could have been me. It could have been someone unlock. You said that that person was.
- [40:49]
A
I mean, it was just so strange that that's the randomness of that kind of random murder. Isn't this just this young woman in Melbourne going about her business who had an ad answered by Peter Dupass. Unbelievable.
- [41:03]
B
You know the one with the Burwood Triple Killer that we did. I think his name that was. Went to that crime scene. It was the most horrific crime scenes that I went to was two women and a bloke bound and shot to the back of the head. And. And he. He just answered an ad in the paper. They have. They put an ad in the paper for a room to rent. And he. He answered the. The ad in the paper. He went there, he controlled them all, shot them back of the head, the whole three of them. He got convicted for that. Never said a word. And that was all matched up. He then abducted. It was about this armed robbery of 2:1 at the Botanical gardens and he got caught, matched up the firearm to the three deceased and rest is history.
- [41:58]
A
If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 YARN on 139276 or 13 yarn.org AU.
- [42:29]
B
The producers of this podcast recognize the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders, past, present and those emerging.